Sunday, November 08, 2009 Last Update:11:25 am ET

Education|Wed, Feb. 20 2008 04:16 PM EST

Oxford Probes Why People Believe in God

By Nathan Black|Christian Post Reporter

University of Oxford researchers will undertake a $4 million study to investigate why people believe in God.

  • Bible
    (Photo: AP Images / Danny Johnston)
    Worshipers from First Landmark Missionary Baptist Church of Highland, Ark., gather in a meeting room at the Hardy, Ark., Fire Station Sunday, Feb. 10, 2008. A tornado destroyed the church building Tuesday, Feb. 5, in Highland.

The university's Ian Ramsey Center for Science and Religion will bring together anthropologists, theologians, philosophers and other academics for a three-year study on whether belief in a divine being is an inherent part of mankind's makeup.

"We are interested in exploring exactly in what sense belief in God is natural," said Justin Barrett, a psychologist and leading member of the research team, according to the Church of England Newspaper. "We think there is more on the nature side than a lot of people suppose."

The researchers will develop a "scientific approach" to why mankind believes in God and other issues around the nature and origin of religious belief. The study will also look into which religious beliefs are most common and most natural for the human mind to grasp.

Roger Trigg, acting director of the Ian Ramsey Center, said anthropological and philosophical research suggests that faith in God is a universal human impulse found in most cultures around the world, even though it's been waning in Britain and parts of Europe, according to The Associated Press.

"There are a lot of issues. What is it that is innate in human nature to believe in God, whether it is gods or something superhuman or supernatural?" he asked. "One implication that comes from this is that religion is the default position, and atheism is perhaps more in need of explanation."

The study comes as many Christians in the West feel there is growing hostility toward Christianity in the public square. Outspoken atheists Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens have come out louder in recent years, arguing against the Christian faith and encouraging other atheists to come out of the closet.

Researchers of the Oxford study will not attempt to answer whether God exists but they will examine evidence to try to prove whether belief in God conferred an evolutionary advantage to mankind, according to UK's The Times.

The study will be funded by the John Templeton Foundation, a U.S.-based philanthropic organization that funds wide-ranging research into questions that deal with the laws of nature and issues of spirituality.

Sort by: Newest | Oldest | Agree | Disagree
All comments on this page are subject to our Terms of Use and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Christian Post or its staff.
1 | 2 | 3 | 4
  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    This link might be interesting to those who are seeking an explanation for the human belief in God.
    http://www.ivpress.com/groothuis/pdf.php...
    and this site

    http://www.calvin.edu/academic/philosoph...

    These demonstrate clearly why while the theory of evolution itself is not only not incompatible with the belief in God in a way it virtually requires a belief in God in order to maintain its validity.

  • Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You have GOT to be kidding me? I guess these guys have been reading that tripe by Richard Dawkins that some people are genetically predisposed to religion and that it needs to be "weeded out" of them. Kind of has a Hitlerian sound to it doesn't it? And why shouldn't it? Atheism's natural outworking is tyranny and death - ala Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot. To these people, "Survival of the fittest" needs to be helped along by engineering their sick theory into people.
    They're called the "new" atheists, but there's nothing new about them.

  • Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:55 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Here is some more hard evidence regarding Jesus. Incidentally, the disciples and other first century witnesses cannot be dismissed merely because they believe. James for example in which history points toward him having founded what is today known as the Eastern Orthodox Church as the brother of Jesus. Apparently he did not think highly of his brother Jesus for having caused disruptions and criticisms of the family. He was skeptical of Jesus until he witnessed the resurrection of Christ first hand. His martyrdom was recorded by Josephus.

    Here is more archeological evidence that not only Jesus existed, but that he was regarded highly enough to have been inscribed on tombs.
    Tomb Inscriptions - late 30's C.E.?
    "Several of the tombs in the Dominus Flevit ['the Lord wept'] catacombs outside Jerusalem bear inscriptions like, 'Jesus, have mercy', and 'Jesus, remember me in the resurrection', inscriptions thought to date from the 40's or late 30's, and indicating the presence in Jerusalem from a fairly early date of a community that believed in resurrection and in the power of someone named Jesus to see the believer safely through death and beyond."
    - Alan Millard, Discoveries From the Time of Jesus

    This quote was copied from a liberal scholarship web sight by the way.
    http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/sources.html

  • Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:35 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    The problem with natural morality is that it cannot ultimately account for Christian virtues such as self-sacrifice; which was looked upon the Romans and Greeks as week. Neo-Darwinism cannot explain Mother Teresa, William Carey, William Tyndale, etc, etc, except but to say that they are malfunctioned. Yet they inspire us all too different levels of self-sacrifice. The Greco-Roman heroism consisted of fighting and conquest. The new virtue of Christian love and self-sacrifice was not a gradual development over time brought on by social evolution, rather it was a very stark contrast that literally compelled a personal response and still does to this day. I would say that not only do materialists have to account for morality, but they also must account for Christ himself and with those who come in contact with him personally and via the gospels.

    Naturalism lacks the inert power to make such paradigm shifts. Perhaps the meta-Darwinists can develop some sort of quantum leap to account for Christ. This would only elevate Christ to a super-human status. Because of his not mere contribution, but entire restructuring of morality and virtue he cannot simply be divorced from society, not just ours but the world over. What I am trying to say is that not only does naturalism have to account for the transformation of society, including morality, but it must also explain Jesus Himself. He cannot summarily be dismissed as a quasi-historical religious figure. The symbol of Greek heroism was Alexander the Great. Heroism is essentially what the culture values. It is interesting how William Blake makes the point that classic heroism is the real source of evil, referring to Napoleon Bonaparte’s conquest. Why did it take religion, Christianity in particular to cultivate and institute a higher evolved ethic? It was not a mere byproduct, but a direct result. Other Christian virtues include loyalty and generosity, both akin to self-sacrificial love. It was actually considered heroic to go into debt to give.

    One example of this is how William Wilberforce knew that when he begun fighting for the abolition of slavery that he would not win and yet he was esteemed as a hero by many at the time. This was in spite of his defeat and despite his sacrifice.

  • Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Token says: “I know through experience that my efforts are fruitless... in order for me to be able to discuss this and make any headway is if i make claims with heavily backed evidence, or if i am an expert.”

    This point that you make is very important to consider the nature of debate in the first place. Whether or not you have considered this or not it is still worth pointing out to others on the thread: The Christian/atheism debate such as this does not prove incontrovertibly one way or another regarding a particular matter. Because neither can be proven in the imperialistic sense, we must get into more subjective areas and postulations that are necessarily drawn from preconceived ideas developed beforehand. Most everyone comes to the table with there own notions, therefore it is difficult to have a transparent conversation. I do however appreciate your personal transparency that you brought to the discussion. I do hope that you will be willing to examine the references that I posted, especially, N.T. Wright’s work, ‘The Resurrection of the Son of God’. This is the crux of the matter, as you well understand no doubt.

    Anyway, the winner of the debate often belongs to whoever has researched the most and is able to articulate it in a matter that is most persuasive. Sometimes this is connected to whichever side has a more compelling position, but it is not necessarily so. Furthermore, it can be argued that if someone loses a debate it does not infer that that person’s position is actually wrong; it may be that the person is either not well informed or incapable of delivery.

    I would also like to recommend to you a book that I have been reading titled The Evolution Controversy: A Survey of Competing Theories by Thomas B. Fowler and Daniel Kuebler. It is a difficult read, but important nonetheless in understanding the issues of the debate. It is written by Christian evolutionists that are not afraid of critiquing every side. Unfortunately they do not include Hugh Ross and other old-earth creationists, which is where I lean.

  • Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I was flagged the other day for something that seemed very trivial.

    TheHuron137, thank you for brining that to my atention. I will check it out.

  • Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I agree. All these flaggings are really annoying as well as unneccesary. I've only flagged people a couple times in the past year. And that was because of their language and their use of ethnic slurs. I wish people would quit flagging just because they don't like the other person's opinion.

  • Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    citsonga, look how often I have been flagged, and whence is the hate speatch? Nowhere and yet it occurs.

  • Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    And keep government out of religion.

  • Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "Oxford Probes Why People Believe in God"

    Genetics plays a large role in ones additude towards religion..........its runs in families

  • Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Looks like theres posters out there that cant stand the opposing view so they decided to flag my comments. Free speech would be one of the first casualties in a theocracy. Thats why it is important to keep religion out of government.

  • Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    seedplanter
    First it should be noted in the Time article that the author nowhere references that quote or heard him say it directly. I have posted a link to the Time article below.
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,765103,00.html
    This quote is suspicious on several points. An article in Skeptic Magazine titled "Misquoting Einstein" Vol. 12 No. 3 2006 deals with this quote. The Skeptic article further states that in a letter by Einstein dated March 28, 1947 the contents of the letter state that early in the hitler years he had casually mentioned to some journalists that hardly any german intellectuals except a few churchmen were supporting individual rights and intellectual freedom. Einstein added that this statement had subsequently been drastically exaggerated beyond anything that he could recognize as his own.
    Since this article is still fairly recent a free copy may be unavailable. I just happen have most of the Skeptic magazines in print. You can however locate a copy at a library or find a downloadable version of the article that may run you a few dollars.

  • Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    seedplanter-

    I believe that you have possibly made a mistake in your attribution or interpretation of that quote by Einstein. I will research and get back to you. If I've made a mistake I will admit it as I am pulling something from memory from a while ago.

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:43 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Sigh... I'm going to lay down my pen at this point... my tenacity to debate this subject has lessened with the more experience ive obtained from the discussions I've had in the past... I've already passed the point where the motivating factor behind my desire to discuss being simply to prove it to myself. At this point if i enter any religious discussion, it is simply to attempt to explain something to an individual... but I know through experience that my efforts are fruitless... in order for me to be able to discuss this and make any headway is if i make claims with heavily backed evidence, or if i am an expert. Im not calling you stubborn or thick headed, as this may sound, you are actually very intelligent, and you have picked me apart for my lazyness, but ive no longer the stamina to do the leg work necessary. Thanks for this discussion and good luck in your ventures.

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:43 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Regarding naturally evolved objective morality. Conquest was the Greco-Roman virtue. It was a Christian who stood up at the last Gladiator game and decried the human depravity which ensuing his martyrdom caused two reverberations that to this day can still be felt. (1) He brought human dignity to the attention of the masses as a force to be reckoned with. (2) He triumphed over Greco-Roman heroism which consisted of conquest as the extolled virtue of the day.

    Why is it that love and self-sacrifice was not a virtue until the light of Christ’s sacrifice brought it to bear upon human consciousness? It is because within the Neo-Darwinian paradigm it doesn’t seem very advantageous. In fact it is quite contrary to what we see in nature. To what benefit is sacrifice in the scheme of survival of the fittest?

    I will speak more of this tomorrow.

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Morality: (1) It needs to be demonstrated that it does exist as an objective historical value within the natural materialistic foundation. (2) It also needs to be demonstrated how it evolved within the naturalistic paradigm. A) This needs to deal with issues relative to its transitions within evolution. B) It must include a basis for morality in reference to animals, among themselves. (3) Regarding the latter, it would seem necessary for us to take responsibility for instituting some sort of morality and justice between animals since we are the higher species.

    The important thing within atheism is for it to consist of a coherent worldview. Christianity does offer that. I find atheism to be a sort of wishful speculation that defies reality. It does not seem to fit comfortably in the real world.

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Token says: “sorry if i came off as rude... I used to be able to be much better at keeping my manners”

    SP- I haven’t noticed anything that was rude in our interaction. We may have gotten off to a rough start on some other threads. I appreciate the way you have entered into a respectful dialogue.

    Token “…i have to say that i dont see how people intrepreting scripture in different ways would benefit anyone...”

    SP- It sounds like maybe you are fishing for information and yet I gave you plenty. Do you need me to spell it out for you and give you all the details? I do not intend to come across rude in saying so, but it does seem a bit odd. It reveals a lack of familiarity on your part, with the Bible and with its historical relevance.

    Token “... basically what im going to say is that if it wasnt christianity it would of been something else, and what we find in most religions is that they all basically teach the same things....”

    SP- Again, this is entirely too simplistic. It doesn’t explain anything, it just relegates it as nothing more than an accident. Out of all the nations and cultures and out of all the religions and beliefs, these benefits were only expressed within the Christian worldview. This is not an issue to side step, especially from militant atheists who want to eliminate faith. This is why you are here is it not, to eliminate faith?

    Token “Im going to make this bold challenge to you, im going to claim that there is 0 evidence of the existence of Jesus in history outside the confines of the Bible.”

    This is an absurdity. Look around the internet, there is plenty of info out there. The James ossuary is the most recent archeological find that is credible evidence to the existence of Jesus. Ben Witherington wrote some stuff on it. N.T. Wright has published the most comprehensive volume to date on Jesus. It is called The Resurrection of the Son of God. Check it out.

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    So you've spoken.

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Where there is no accountability, there is no responsibility. Where there is no responsibility, there is no guilt. Where there is no guilt, there is no end to man's atrocities and abominations.

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    citizen,

    I’m not sure if you have caught up with the thread, but I wanted to further elaborate on my response to your presentation of Hitler. While atheists such as Dawkins argue over Hitler’s religious affiliation, it seems that the fact that Christians fought for the Jews’ lives is completely omitted. Gene Edward Veith points out in his work “Fascism: Modern and Postmodern” how that Albert Einstein turned to the universities, editors of newspapers and individual authors to find them reduced to silence: "Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. …The Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom." Albert Einstein, Time magazine (December 23, 1940).

    As we look at what I would be considered a pseudo-Christian Hitler vs. Biblical Christians we discover Scripture speaking; ‘Test everything, hold onto the good.’

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Or better yet, if you don't like the punishment, don't do the crime. Simple.

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Are you arguing the punishiment? Or the warning?

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet:''You live in a society that is all about fear and retribution. You speed...you get a ticket and a fine. Yous steal...you go to jail. You rape...you go to jail for a longer time. You murder someone you go to jail for a VERY long time....or face a worse punishment. I don't hear you complain about those retributions. Please come up with a better argument."

    They all pale in comparison to the "loving God" sending the non-believers to eternal torture chambers.

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    citsonga,
    You live in a society that is all about fear and retribution. You speed...you get a ticket and a fine. Yous steal...you go to jail. You rape...you go to jail for a longer time. You murder someone you go to jail for a VERY long time....or face a worse punishment. I don't hear you complain about those retributions. Please come up with a better argument.

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet: "eternity in hell. "


    Its all about fear and retribution for Christians and Muslims. I thought religion was suppose to bring comfort to people. Seems like its all based on fear. Fear of death and hell and the promise for eternal life in heaven if you "believe" is whats its all about.....all rather silly stuff. I guess you ccan believe in what you want, I say there Prophet what ever floats your boat..

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The road to hell is a super highway. Built for speed and maximum comfort. No one would want to go to hell if the ride wasn't so comfortable. But, alas, a few short years of comfort on earth in exchange for eternity in hell. That's a good trade.

    And, as far as "organically atheistic" countries having a better standard of living. Whether a country is Christian or atheist has absolutely nothing to do with standard of living. We could institute just about everything that those countries do without sacrificing our relgious beliefs. Such as socialized medicine. Christians don't keep that from happening in America. Politicians do. I would like to see some changes in many aspects of our country, and many of them have nothing to do with religion. I think the way we do income tax is a farce. Once again, that has nothing to do with religion.

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I'm predicting that Oxford will come up with a scientific based reason for human kind's need to believe in god. The religious community will shrug it off as irrelevant just like they did when the religiously affiliated Templeton Foundation conducted the largest most rigorous research to investigate the effect of intercessory prayer and found that intercessory prayer had no effect. Either that or blame the devil. I wonder if they will be able to demonstrate the evolutionary advantages of faith as Daniel Dennett asserts.

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Im going to make this bold challenge to you, im going to claim that there is 0 evidence of the existence of Jesus in history outside the confines of the Bible. But to modify this statement a bit, as I've said before... Men of religion will go to such great lengths to change concepts and history itself in order to defend religion, so im going to say that if you find anything that states jesus's existence in history is valid was written by a clergymen who wasnt even alive at the time of jesus's supposed existence. Find to me a document written by an objective observer of Jesus's time, that mentions Jesus as a real person. Im also going to throw out this theory that the story of Jesus heavily borrows from the story of the religion worshiping Mithras, and that it also stole things such as the halo from that religion, and even stole the story of how Mithras was born.

    Whats more most religions teach some of the basics, dont steal dont murder, and almost all religions teach the golden rule 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' Some religions are vastly modified because of individuals, but they all start out the same...

  • Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    TokenSP—
    You seem to act as if “religion” is some big monolithic belief system that people have. Over six billion people in this world are “religious”, but they believe radically different things, much of it which contradicts each other. The fact that religions may have some similarities is really irrelevant. It’s the DIFFERENCES that matter and they are huge.

    You say “most religions come to the same conclusions on moral precepts.” Well have a look at Islam as one example—both in their sacred text and the way they live it out. I think you’ll find their morality quite different from Christianity. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love God with all one’s heart, soul, mind, and strength. What other religion holds this as the greatest moral imperative?

    You also said, “what I’m going to say is that if it wasn’t Christianity it would of been something else”
    This totally ignores the fact that Christianity wasn’t simply the creation of a new religion. Christianity began as the result of something that had HAPPENED—Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead. This is what changed his followers from being scared and confused to turning the world upside down. Christianity is rooted in a historical event that can be verified.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Since youre logging out ill just say my final comment on that... One arguement Christians use is that we are simply denying authority or we're scared or that somehow Christianity is in the back of our concious nagging us causing us to fear that we may be wrong... I've gotten to the point where I have no fear what so ever that i may be wrong... I mean I never knew if that was possible, and i never really thought it was but i have actually gotten to the point where i actually dont even care about this discussion... I am only discussing this right now in passing interest.. of course i feel strongly about my position no doubt about that, but I dont fear that im wrong... I have just had so much convincing evidence against religion... and i havent even gone over a fraction of it... Whats more, and probably the part that caused me to loose great interest in this discussion is that I have found out that many experts arguing for the Christian side have actually lied, or made conclusions with limited knowledge... I was kind of disgusted at the lack of professionalism. In any case im done for the night, sorry if i came off as rude... I used to be able to be much better at keeping my manners, but i admit i have lost that ability along the way.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I suppose there were benefits to people messing around with the Bible... I am not against giving respect to what ever contribution those may have been, although i have to say that i dont see how people intrepreting scripture in different ways would benefit anyone... as an atheist i am biased and i do think that not believing in religion in general is better than believing in religion... but thats not much different than me rooting for my team, I mean I have reasoning behind my beliefs on this matter, but just being practical im going to think that regardless...

    Now your whole thing with the constitution... my goodness, do you not realize how SIMILAR most of the religions are in the world? Seriously I havee never taken a class in anthropology, but i have been in these discussions millions of times, and i have had mini courses in the developments of religion... religions all have a basic structure in development, that follows the same pattern until they become a supra religion such as christianity or islam... its just how societys work... every society throughout history has had some form of religion, and sometimes those religions develop into a mainstream religion and become as famous as christianity... basically what im going to say is that if it wasnt christianity it would of been something else, and what we find in most religions is that they all basically teach the same things.... because morality, tends to be the same thing across the world... there are differences, for example sometimes the punishment for stealing grains of rice in a society that depends on rice for their survival, would be more severe than anywhere else... but excluding these differences, most religions come to the same conclusions on moral precepts.... so you claim that christianity was a factor in developing the constitution, but i think that if youre an intelligent person you can find the morals that are sound in any religion, now i think if it was a different religion our constitution would of been different, but who can say it would of been worse? You have no way of knowing that.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I'm signing off for the night. Not to lay on the psychological pressure, but I do pray for you guys. Have a good night Token!


    citizen, I'll be keeping an eye out for your response.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Token: “having money doesnt mean your living standard is better.... that just means we're greedy people...”

    Your assessment here is correct in my opinion. One thing that I would have to qualify is that through Luther’s reformation a high value was put on work ethic. No longer was the priesthood the only high calling of God. This distinguishes the nations of Christian influence.

    Token says: “…the motivational factor that caused them to do good…”

    Seedplanter response: The long list of Christian achievements in the world is another complex story. Keep in mind, the things that I listed is not even half the contributions to society. Some of the factors included the Bible itself as a means of understanding our world, human dignity, interacting with each other, with nature, etc. Obviously the monasteries did not invent things to gain points in heaven. I am interested in researching this more myself. Numerous reformers lead the charge against Rome for many things. Luther stood on trial for his work called the Diet of Worms (no kidding). He had seen the Scripture truths outside of the confines of Rome and for the first time understanding salvation by faith rather than human perfection and works, transformed him and thereby literally changed the world forever. This single issue should be driven deep into the halls of the academia. As it is most Christians are completely ignorant, as was I. At any rate, Luther refused to recant upon two issues, the Bible and plain reason.

    Luther was condemned, but for political reasons continued his work, he was protected by the prince. He then translated the Scriptures in German (as Tyndale did in English) and with the invention of the printing press, the chains of Biblical ignorance were forever broken. If you study the pattern of this development throughout the nations, what you will find may surprise you. Study the history of China and see why even though they invented a printing press before Gutenberg, it was sterile as to developing anything. Read the life of William Carey by Vishal Mangalwadi (who has first hand experience as a native to India) and see what he did there. (You can find some of his stuff online). Compare the social posits of Christianity verses Buddhism and Hinduism.

    So it was not just the press, it was the Bible that changed the world. How? Not through fear of hell, but by its infinite wisdom. You may laugh at this, but just how much of the constitution and our government do you know to have been directly influenced by its wisdom? You may say, well its unscientific. How do you know? Are you just presuming so based on certain interpretations of Genesis? So to give you a short answer to your question of motivation; some was spiritual, while others were practical, fear would not be included as a motive for productivity at all. I do not think that I included any contribution in my list that was merely a casual believer.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I understand what youre saying, and i agree... it is beneficial in this way, my mother was a drug addict who became clean when she turned to religion... I see it all the time, im no stranger to this concept, and i have to thank religion for that... but what you dont see are the hundreds of thousands of people who are able to overcome their addictions and problems via other ways that have nothing to do with religion... now of course, so many people are not so strong willed... for example my story is that in this 5 years i have lost 5 family members 4 of them passing away this past year, with only month intervals... that is i lost my brother my father my uncle my grandmother and sister... all in separate events... and I dont speak with my mother, and havent spoken to her since my fathers funeral... I am basically a wretch at this point... a man without a family to speak of... and yet I was able to keep my head held up high, and i was able to pull through and i am going to college and striving to make something of myself... i am not an alcoholic, I havent been brought down by depression, and so on and so forth.... but not everyone is so fortunate... many people do turn to alcohol or drugs, or other evils to ease the pain... and some people do need religion to give them a sense of purpose... but i contend that if we give people the support the love and we help them see that life still goes on after tragedy, and that we are still able to experience joy even after all the pains we've gone through, we wont need religion... now its not that simple and i know that... but I say that every single case can be explained... what psychological reasons caused a person to turn good... but youre right, i dont see them as miracles.. but i can see why anyone who has witness countless cases such as that may come to the conclusion that some larger force is at work... because it does seem that way... but when you sit down to examine it, that is an extraordinary claim, thats going to need extraordinary proof that youre not goin to find..

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    and even if you dont take joy in helping other people, as some people dont, we can still see the logic in helping other people. By helping eachother to live in this world, by creating harmony in the community, we are helping eachother, we can see that society in general becomes happier, prospers, and to just state it... are better able to survive in this world, if we work together... we can see the logic there... if i help you and you help me, then together we'll prosper... thats basically what morality aims to achieve... by not killing this man, the man is able to live on to help other people or to find the cure for cancer, or maybe just to help the ecconomy, by going to work, and buying food and luxuries from time to time... Morality simply creates harmony...

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:29 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Let me answer your thoughts on motivations from your initial challenge.

    The most fascinating factor in Christian conversion is an inner transformation that takes place. Many atheists doubt the veracity of miracles. If no other miracle was evident besides the resurrection, the rebirth would be enough. Murderers, drunks, homeless, hateful, vengeful people are instantly transformed by the power of the gospel. Some do indeed turn to AA and such for help, but an inner change begins to take place nonetheless. I have seen men’s arms with needle marks up one side and down the other; men who today are in executive positions. I have met at least two men who were millionaires that became homeless who are now reconciling with their families because of the gospel. I have met former murderous drug addicted pimps who are now preaching hope to the seemingly insignificant of society. Now for you no matter how long I went on it would not faze you a bit. But for these people and millions of others, this transformation is not only real but it is evidence of a divine power that has penetrated their heart, transforming it inside-out. To get to my point; this change that takes place seems to act on its own, sort of like naturally. Of course it involves will and desire, but often times this unearthly power supercedes the will in such a way that alcoholics are literally no longer riddled with a desire whatsoever. The sexually abused woman is no longer bitter and living in gilt driven grief, she is now not only wanting to forgive (often times to their horror), but wants to help the abuser mend his soul. The power of the gospel can so infect a man that it causes him to do the things that he would never do. This is not fueled by heaven, hell, a point system or anything else that is self-serving. Of course heaven and hell have their place. Often times they can motivate in one way or another. But there is something much deeper down affecting the psyche than fear could ever tell. This of course is something that atheism could never touch. Why America is the way it is in regards to the penetration of the gospel, we may never know. One thing that is for certain is that people have a spiritual nature and a mysterious inherent tendency towards worship. There is indeed a God-shaped vacuum that atheism cannot fill. This is one more reason of many why militant atheism is hitting a brick wall.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Morality is something that you can understand using logic and reason.. things are only morally correct if their justifications are sound and valid... some things we can just say are opinions or personal choices... the difference between morality and any other opinion is that morality strikes us on a deeper level... we feel its more apart of our character, we feel more is at stake when we play odds with morality... we say its bad to murder someone, and when ever we witness it we feel shock and horror and a sense of repulsion at the man or woman who commmitted the murder, because we feel they did WRONG. If we steal from someone, depending on if you realize the pain youre causing the person, we are likely to feel guilt, a sense of shame in our action, in knowing that we did something wrong. If we see someone doing good, such as a man who goes out of his way to help an old lady shovel her side walk free of charge, we feel a sense of joy and inspiration this sort of sense that that man is doing good, and that we should do likewise because it creates happiness and harmony for others and we can take joy in knowing that we have helped other people (this is a bit selfish, but im trying to catch the emotions people feel when something is moral rather than just an opinion) and the lists of examples go on....

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    sorry, same = sam

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    To further explain this.... two people, same and tom, give money to hobo joe... sam does it because religion taught him to love his fellow man, and so it is just became an ingrained charactistic of his personality, tom does it because his parents taught him to be good and to always help people in need so it became ingrained in his personality... both people are right.. they gave money to hobo joe... but religion isnt necessary to be good, it helps ill give you that, if religion is good for anything it is good for teaching morality, but religion doesnt hold the monoply on morality. It did for centuries in the past, anthropology tells us that religion has been around in one form or another as far back as man was able to record history... but now we dont need to hear a story in order to do good... now we can realize that if we help hobo joe, we are giving him the oppurtunity to go and buy some food so that he can live in a bit more harmony... we are creating harmony by giving him money.. we dont need a story anymore...

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    :P Ok that is an act of me being lazy... i know its more complex than that but im just saying... I realize and respect that people of religion have done wonderful things to progress humanity... that is what every man and woman should strive to do, to make this world a better place, whether it is to give money to a homeless person, or discover the laws of gravity... and i realize that christians dont all act in the name of religion... but if youre trying to say that religion is good because people are taught to do good things, i say that people should be good just because it is right. Now I think that it doesnt matter how we become good people as long as we are good people, but what im just trying to say is that we shouldnt say that just because a religious person did good we should attribute that to his religion... we should attribute that to the person themselves.... I mean its like your pawning off all the good people do to religion, and the only way you can get away with doing that is if you say that religion was the motivational factor that caused them to do good... if it wasnt then it wasnt because of religion and we shouldnt even consider that in our discussion of these peoples achievments...

    What I said was that hte living standards are better... having money doesnt mean your living standard is better.... that just means we're greedy people...

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    By the way the name of the article is Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns, but for some reason they took the article down, maybe to further edit it but you can find commentary on the article if you google it... some of the sites are just statistics, but just look for sites that contain comentary on the actual article itself... or perhaps excerpts from the article or if youre really lucky the article itself.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Token: “Better lives in that better health longer lives, less divorce rate less death rate, and less crime rate.... Money isnt everything folks....”

    Token asked: “Did you know there is a study that says that the more atheistic a country is the better the living standards are?”
    Seedplanter Response: I answer your challenge, now you say it doesn’t matter.

    Token: “What do you say about the bible condoning slavery and striking slaves should they misbehave and all the other punishments you get, such as working on sabath (spell check) and all the other aspects of the bible...”

    SP Re: Some work has been done on the issue of slavery, examining the historical and the cultural setting. I have not read up on that personally. It does come across as a flaw.

    Token: “About contributions... IT DOESNT MATTER!!”

    SP Re: Oh Really? You obviously are riding on the Neo-Darwinian bandwagon and you do not think that survivability matters?! You actually think that abstract truth, specifically in regards to religious belief, in a worldview that consists of relying upon naturally evolving intelligence can give real answers for such a thing? You think that Neo-Darwinism provides an authority by which its adherents get to decide what is advantageous for everyone else? Talk about objectivity.

    Token: “People should be good just because its the right thing to do not because theyre trying to get some brownie points with the 'man upstairs' thats horrible! If you help out a person because youre trying to get to Heaven, thats a horrible motivational reason. So I dont agree with people who use such arguements... look at all the good people have done in the name of religion... that just tells me how horrible the human race is....”

    SP Re: Not to be rude Token, but this just reveals how little atheists really know and understand Christianity and Christians. First of all, Christians need not apologize for the beliefs that they hold, not to you, not to anyone. How arrogant!
    Secondly, there are numerous motives for why Christians do the things they do. Your assessment is entirely too simplistic. It reveals not only a lack of understanding and serious investigation, but also a trace of no real desire to. As a Christian I know that there are several reasons why one turns to atheism. People are complex. Your evaluation shows little respect in way of some of the greatest minds that ever lived. While you have in fact suppressed the sarcasm that frequents the post, you have not done so well in the integrity of your debates.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    actually i did read every single page except for the maybe 4 - 5 posts preceding my first post because i had gotten tired of reading and wanted to put input in :P.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Token, have you read the thread?

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Better lives in that better health longer lives, less divorce rate less death rate, and less crime rate.... Money isnt everything folks....

    Ok have you ever read the Bible? What do you say about the bible condoning slavery and striking slaves should they misbehave and all the other punishments you get, such as working on sabath (spell check) and all the other aspects of the bible...

    About contributions... IT DOESNT MATTER!! People should be good just because its the right thing to do not because theyre trying to get some brownie points with the 'man upstairs' thats horrible! If you help out a person because youre trying to get to Heaven, thats a horrible motivational reason. So I dont agree with people who use such arguements... look at all the good people have done in the name of religion... that just tells me how horrible the human race is....

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:24 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Adding to what tgender said, Biblical inerrancy doesn’t mean that everything is to be taken literally. It is only to be taken literally where it is intended to be taken literally. For example, Jesus is pictured with a sword coming out of His mouth. This is obviously figurative. Skeptics love to have fun by imposing views in the Scriptures that are not warranted (i.e. the crazy misconception that Jesus taught cannibalism).

    I personally take a more modest approach when it comes to debating skeptics. Inerrancy is not contingent upon salvation any more than moral perfection is. Bottom line, there is a God. We act as if there is a God, even when we live in rebellion against God. One may call himself an atheist, but he lives in self doubt by clinging to morality and meaning that he/she borrows from theists.

    (I flagged myself)

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    TokenSP—
    “No Christian alive follows every tenet of the Bible”
    This is a problem with Christians, not the Bible. I’m not saying Christians are perfect; no one is, including atheists.

    “I think, that if any part of the Bible is false, then all of it should be held under strict scrutiny.”
    I agree, however I think the Bible is inerrant in what it teaches.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Europe is living off of the interest that has been invested by Christians. For example if it wasn't for John Wesley a brutal civil war would have been inevitable in England. Other priceless investments include:

    Public schools: Martin Luther first had the idea of tax supported public education.

    Universal Education

    Lutheran Johann Sturm introduced graded levels of education.

    Kindergarten

    Education for the deaf.

    Education for the blind.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    TokenSP—
    “My simple rebuttal to atheism having no purpose in life, if this were at ALL true, then we would be highly suicidal individuals, because believe me if i felt that my life was meaningless id of taken my life a long time ago and ended this meaningless existence.”
    I’m not saying atheists have no meaning or purpose, but simply that they must invent it in order to live happy lives. This is because there is nothing in the structure of the universe to provide meaning and purpose. Everything is ultimately futile.

    “Your view on life is rather morbid if I do say so myself.”
    You’ll have to explain this because I experience hope, joy, and peace. On the contrary, I think the the atheist view is morbid and full of despair.

    “Its a good thing you find purpose in religion.”
    I don’t find purpose in religion, but in God as he’s revealed himself in Jesus Christ. There’s a big difference.

    ” My opinion is that if you answer those two questions fully and completely... then you cant honestly be a Christian.”
    What two questions? You didn’t pose any questions.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    GENEVA - American workers stay longer in the office, at the factory or on the farm than their counterparts in Europe and most other rich nations, and they produce more per person over the year.

    They also get more done per hour than everyone but the Norwegians, according to a U.N. report released Monday, which said the United States “leads the world in labor productivity.”

    The average U.S. worker produces $63,885 of wealth per year, more than their counterparts in all other countries, the International Labor Organization said in its report. Ireland comes in second at $55,986, followed by Luxembourg at $55,641, Belgium at $55,235 and France at $54,609.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20572828/

Please help us to monitor our message boards by flagging comments that are unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable.
Contact Us if you have any questions, comments, or concerns.
Comment on this story
ID Password

Don't have a Christian Post ID? Signing up is easy. Click Here

  • icon1
  • icon2
  • icon3
  • icon4
  • icon5
The Christian Post reserves the right to terminate the account of any User who violates our Terms of Use.
Also on CP
Advertisement
Advertisement
CP Shopping
  • Jewelry
  • Health
  • Gifts
  • DVD
  • Coins

Bracelets | Chains | Crosses | Earrings | Gemstone |

Featured contents & Giveaways
Zondervan

Struggling to succeed in the Nashville music scene, talented singer/songwriter Parker James finds the competition fierce even deadly. A young woman's murder, industry corruption, a

Featured Advertiser Links