To this day, the gay and lesbian community is looking to the Church for some verifiable evidence that Christians love homosexuals as they say they do, said a former gay activist.
Many Christians use the phrase "We hate the sin but we love the sinner" when responding to the homosexual community. But if the Church is going to continue to use that cliché, the burden of proof is on us, said Joe Dallas, program director of Genesis Counseling – a Tustin, Calif.-based ministry to men struggling with sexual addiction and homosexuality.
The Church must provide verifiable evidence of its hatred of sin of homosexuality and love for the homosexual, he explained at a past Love Won Out conference in Orlando, Fla. Dallas’ session was aired on Focus on the Family's radio broadcast on Tuesday.
"We have responsibility to be consistent to live what we preach," he said.
And rather than pointing the finger at the sins of the culture, Dallas insisted the appropriate question to ask is "not what can be done about this moral state of the culture, but rather what can be done about the moral state of the Church."
For decades Christians have struggled over how to respond appropriately to homosexuals.
In the 1970s, many Christian televangelists and well-known pastors began speaking out against the sin of homosexuality, often offering "lurid exaggerations" about homosexual people to underscore their point, Dallas mentioned.
He called it the "Jonah syndrome" where Christians lose sight of the value and humanity of the people they oppose.
In the 1980s when the AIDS epidemic came on the scene, homosexuals only saw hostility from the Church.
"We in the gay community did not hear a compassionate Christian response," said Dallas, who said he once lived a promiscuous homosexual lifestyle.
Instead, the gay community heard: "The judgment of God has finally fallen down on the sodomites."
"Translated, your sin has finally caught up with you, you're going to die, and we're not at all sure we're sorry," Dallas said.
"That is a message that the gay community will never forget."
Focus on the Family is about to celebrate the 10th anniversary of its Love Won Out conferences, which equip churches across the nation about how to respond to homosexuality and offer hope to those struggling with same-sex desires.
And in the past 10 years, the Christian rhetoric toward homosexual persons has increasingly turned away from the judgmental talk of sin and death and has become more responsible and more balanced, Dallas noted. But the Church is still adjusting and gay and lesbian activists are still picketing such conferences as Love Won Out, unconvinced that Christians have moved away from the hate and anti-homosexual speech.
"Gay activists come with pre-conceived notions about who we are and what we believe and about the hate that boils from within, which is simply not true," said Dr. James Dobson, founder and chairman of Focus on the Family.
Dobson, one of the nation's most influential evangelical leaders, says Love Won Out conferences are not about hate or rejection.
"Regardless of what the media might say, Focus on the Family has no interest in promoting hatred toward homosexuals or anyone else," he stressed during Tuesday's broadcast. "We also don't wish to deprive them of their basic constitutional rights. The Constitution applies to all of us." Continue >>
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The homosexual population never received open hatred from the church, it was the Neo-Nazis and Skin heads who expressed hateful comments at them. The church as the body of Christ msut stand on the foundation of the Bible, which is the word of God, what is said is not hate speech, but a message of deliverance from sin, and Jesus through love, came as a offering for our (human) sin. We as true believers knowing this can't make excuses to continue into the same sins and Jesus holy name to cover it up, and that includes homosexuality.
1 Corinthians 13
The Excellence of Love
1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
The challenge I believe for all of us, if we take upon the identity of Christian is this. Do we walk in in 1 Corinthians 13? No, we are not to condone sin. Nor are we called to preach at sin. We are called to minister to the sinner the truth of the Gospel with the love of God working through us. None of us, if we were to get really honest, does this regarding sin. Prudent truth is truth speaking for itself, but when we speak the truth in love, we are allowing God to work through us. We can quote thousands of scripture and appear to be all religious, but Christian means Christlike. God convicts us with His love and His truth. I think the problem is that we are to quick to envoke God's law against people instead of speaking the truth in love. I believe the best way we can ever reach someone to lead them to Christ is to share our testimony as to what Christ did for us, from His death on the cross out of His love for us, to the transformation by the renewing of our minds that led to our turning away from sin. Once we have reached out to those with God's love and truth we place them in His hands and leave them to their choice as to which direction they want to turn. It is at this point based on their decision to accept or reject God's truth. It is out of our hands. Never ever are we to compromise God's truth, but we do not have to be arrogant if the offer of salvation is rejected. We just back off and continue on in the journey Christ has for us and walk in 1 Corinthians 13.
I have enjoyed reading each of your comments. This is an issue of great importance in these troubled times. The UCC church has a slogan in it's PR campaign "Welcoming and Affirming." I have really struggled with this as I believe we are called to welcome (love) without judgement and condemnation. The affirmation part is tough because I feel we must once they are in the Body of Christ (church) turn away from sin. Many of these Gay churches are completely rewriting scripture and effectively mocking the Christ who bought them. So many of these movements spend MUCH effort in gospels and ministries other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Certainly socal justice and enviornmental concerns are valid yet these pale in comparison to spreading the Word of God and sharing our Savior with others. I have studied many of these churches and what I have found deeply disturbes me as it should. I pray for these folk and I know that each day I ask for Gods grace for my life and I ask the Holy Spirit to make me aware of my sin and areas of my life which need attention. I Truly love these Gay brothers and feel I would be negligent if I did not speak the Truth, the Way and the Life. Praise be to God our Father for this site and a healthy discussion on how we minister and love one another. The time draws near and we all have a choice laid before us: To Revere (Fear the Lord) or to Reject (continue unrepentant sin). Grace and Peace
I agree.
I made the analogy that it takes the same amount of forgiveness for God to forgive murder as it does for God to forgive lying. Pilot didn't get that point. That means that if it takes the same amount of forgiveness, then one is no worse than the other in His eyes. The man who commits murder, is repentant, and asks forgiveness is forgiven of God as easily as the one who repents of l ying. Unfortunately, there are more repentant murderers out there than repentant liars. People think that lying is not such a big sin, and therefore true repentance isn't needed. How wrong they are. The Word of God says that if we offend in even one point of the law, we have broken the entire law.
prespilot68 - Jeuss told his disciples that to hate their fellow brethren in their hearts was equal to murder. Under the law a person was gulity of murder if they acutally committed the physical harm unto death. In the New Testament Jesus amplifies this meaning when he says, "but I say unto you if you hate your brotheren in heart ye also commit murder.
God does not distinguish from varying degrees of sin. Sorry. We are not like Him, most of us have no idea of Who He is; and anyone who assumes so, can go ahead and do it for as long as he lives; but it's not going to change the nature of God. He forgives everyone equally, He died for everyone equally and he doesn't play favorites even in the sin department. IT'S ALL THE SAME TO HIM.
pilot,
I never said you said anything about denying God's forgiveness.
Prophet - I never said anything about denying God's forgiveness. Your trying to make a straw man argument here! I am talking about his justice. If you have FAITH - then justice for your sins has been set aside. I am speaking about those who do not have faith and God's righteous justice. God will judge ACCORDINGLY to the persons sinfulness. Will God judge Hitler different than say a common sinner? I think so - read Revelation and you'll get the sense that God judges righteously. Besides - I think you also left something out of your statement - Repentance. Without it God would be unloving to just forgive or pardon someone unless they have repented of their sins.
Calling someone to repent of sin IS the most loving thing you can do. To do other wise is condemn the sinner to a life of slavery to their sin. Just ask those whom have repented and found deliverence from this perverted and licencious lifestyle.
prespilot,
Jesus died for ALL sins. It takes no more effort for God to forgive a person of rape, than it does for God to forgive someone of lying. To say otherwise, is to say that Jesus' death was not enough.
What the problem here is, OUR ability to forgive certain sins. Would you agree that murder is worse than lying? Most likely. Then let's review what Jesus said as he was being murdered....."Father, forgive them....." Here is a man who was being wrongly executed (murder), and yet His one last thought was to forgive. Maybe we could all learn something from that.
Cheala34life - you said "Sin is still sin. Me hating my christian brother is just as sinful as someone living a homosexual lifestyle." REALLY??! So when someone murders and sodomizes a two year old little boy this is the same as someone telling a lie?? God doesn't distinguish the difference? What a misrepresentation of God's character. How then do you harmonize a verse such as John 19:11 or Matt 23:14 then? Clearly the justice of God is impugn when you say such things. God does distinguish between verying degrees of sin - its in the Word of God. Sin regardless is horrible and we must obstain from all sin.
Lets be realistic. We all have fallen short of the glory of God. We all needed forgiveness of and justification from sin. God is the only person who can do that. Even if we did love the homosexual in a way that is palatable to them, they still have a problem with God. As believers we offer the extension of love as a means to share the gospel of Jesus Christ. The twenty first century church in my opinion is backpeddling on the issue. Because there are so many church scandals, sin is allowed or thinking is "how can you as the church tell me to live right when you have dirt in your house?' There is some validity to that. However, that does not change the Rightesouness and Holiness of God. Humans are fallible God is not. Sin is still sin. Me hating my christian brother is just as sinful as someone living a homosexual lifestyle. What has happened is that the church has lost it moral power because we do not hold ourselves accountable for the sin we committ. Pastors and layleaders alike know too much about the bible to asks for forgiveness at times. If someone living the homosexual lifestyle wants to come into your church let them come. Share the gospel with them. Its their choice whether to accept it or not. At the same time live righteously before them and watch the power of God work on that person. Now we as the church should not be afraid to say this lifestyle is wrong no more than we say adultry is wrong. Their are also people who live adulterous lives in the pews, but you do not see a coalition of adulterers saying they are looking for love from the church.
Correction:
Homosexuals will not repent until we get our doctrines straightened up. Most churches these days provided such a hypocritical doctrines that it is no wonder sinners are NOT being saved! For example, I would guess that almost every person who left a post on this article believes in at least the two points of Calvinism - Original Sin and Total Depravity. This doctrine is defined as man is "born" with a genetic inability to do ANYTHING good or righteous. In other words man is unable to choose that which is right, but is predisposed to do only evil. However, most on this post would probably rail against homosexuals who state they are born "gay" or homosexual. But yet doesn't this support the theory or doctrine of original sin/total depreavity??? That men and women are just "born" evil or sinful? But yet our conscience tells us something completely different - and that is this sick perverted doctrine of Total Depravity or Original sin is NOT true - but is false. If it were true then we as Christians would accept the homosexuals excuses that they are just "born" this way - but yet we don't (See the hypocrisy??). Homosexuals, just like all sinners CHOOSE to rebel against God and are not inclined one way or the other - we sin because we choose to do so. We all have been equipped with a conscience or natural law and we violate that law every time we sin. We sin not out of necessity - but out of freedom of the will!
Homosexuals will not repent until we get our doctrines straightened up. Most churches these days provided such a hypocritical doctrines that it is no wonder sinners are being saved! For example, I would guess that almost every person who left a post on this article believes in at least the two points of Calvinism - Original Sin and Total Depravity. This doctrine is defined as man is "born" with a genetic inability to do ANYTHING good or righteous. In other words man is unable to choose that which is right, but is predisposed to do only evil. However, most on this post would probably rail against homosexuals who state they are born "gay" or homosexual. But yet doesn't this support the theory or doctrine of original sin/total depreavity??? That men and women are just "born" evil or sinful? But yet our conscience tells us something completely different - and that is this sick perverted doctrine of Total Depravity or Original sin is NOT true - but is false. If it were true then we as Christians would accept the homosexuals excuses that they are just "born" this way - but yet we don't (See the hypocrisy??). Homosexuals, just like all sinners CHOOSE to rebel against God and are not inclined one way or the other - we sin because we choose to do so. We all have been equipped with a conscience or natural law and we violate that law every time we sin. We sin not out of necessity - but out of freedom of the will!
smbga,
If a homosexual/lesbian wants to attend church, having the knowledge that they are sinners, with the desire to change who they are, understanding that God is a God who changes people,...then let them come. I am a sinner too. I have habits that are not pleasing to God. But I confess that I'm a sinner, and that I need God to change me.
But if a homosexual/lesbian wants to attend church, with the purpose of perverting the truth and proclaiming a sinful lifestyle as something that is acceptable to God, then they need to be removed.
There are plenty of "churches" out there preaching doctines of demons. Let the unrepentant go there for acceptance.
Did you know there is an alcoholic gene that predisposes some people to alcholism? See below:
Researchers Identify Alcoholism Gene Alcohol Addiction, High Anxiety Linked to Same Gene
By Jeanie L. Davis WebMD Medical NewsMay 26, 2004 -- A new study links a gene to alcohol addiction -- backing up a long-recognized pattern showing that alcoholism runs in families.
The point is that even though some people feel inborn with gay tendencies, they can and should resist succumbing to the behavior. The person with the alcoholic gene must not be resigned to become a drunk - though tempted to drink. Being tempted is not a sin. It does not mean there have failed at living heterosexual lives. It means they will forever be in recovery.
Yet another example of compromising Christianity. Can we please define the terms here? 1) Sin, of any kind shape or size will be judged by a holy and just God. To deny this is to deny Christianity and the very Word of God and to call God a liar. 2) Loving those trapped in homosexuality does NOT mean that we turn a blind eye to their sin no more than we should turn a blind eye to the adulterer or the murderer. Sin is sin. There are no gray areas. You've either surrendered your life to Jesus Christ, and died to the old man/self or you're still living in sin and are thus in rebellion against God. A person MUST make a choice - be dead to sin or be dead to Christ.
Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:6-7 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin.
Let's rid ourselves once and for all from this cultural cancer that has invaded the church. Remember, Jesus said, "Remember the word that I said to you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours."
He also said: "And this is the judgment: that light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."
So much for the "Precious Moments" Jesus everyone so loves...
Cheala,
Amen! God's idea of love, and man's finite, and corrupt, idea of love are totally different. God's love is selfless. Man's love is selfish.
The Bible clearly defines homosexuality as a sin. A homosexual person is in need of salvation in Jesus Christ just as every other sinner. We preach the truth in love, it is the same message that we preach to every man - (Romans 5:9, 10) 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
The article title is a little misleading, evangelicals do not love the "gay community", we love lost sinners, including gays or straight, by sharing with them God's love in word and in deed. The "gay community" is a social and political organization that exists to defend and support a specific sexual lifestyle.
There are real ways to share God's love with sinners and reach into "communities". Sharing the gospel and calling sinners to repent of their sin does not appear akin to "love" in the eyes of the world.
Question: When you love someone you tell them the truth correct? or at least you should. When you love someone you tell them the truth because you really want the best for that person. Love does not mean you will not be corrected. Usually love and correction go hand in hand. Teh problem is the homosexuals idea of love is "accept me the way I am and don't tell me how to live" Well, the first we can do. Jesus died us just as we were. The bible say while we were yet sinners he died for us, but the problem come in when Jesus tells you "go and sin no more" As believers in Christ we would be derelict to our duty if we did not point out to homosexuals the error of their way. The bigger issus is this is not about a Christian perspective to rid the world of homosexualilty. That is unrealistic. As believers should we treat homosexuals rudely or call them names? No! But at the same should we say to them live any way you want on your terms in the church? By no means. The church is teh body of Christ. God is Holy and we have treat his church that way becaus we love him. Lastly, the homosexual community does not need our commendation they need the Lords. When this is all said and it is God who they have to stand before not the Christian whom they looked for for love.
WHY are Christians bending to the demands of homosexuals for 'acceptance'?
There are more verses in the bible such as "Come out from among them and be ye seperate", and "Blessed is the man who walketh not in the way of the sinful..." I don't know about the rest of you, but when I read my bible, I hear God saying to lead sinners to REPENTANCE first, then fellowship. But for those who refuse to repent of their sins, it seems to me that it is written all over the bible to "Turn away from such people".
What makes homosexuality REBELLION against God, rather than just another 'sin', is the homosexual society's commitment to undermine anyone who stands for any kind of ethics and values that oppose their sexual interests. Here is an example of what homosexual activists have written about Christians, and then turned around and acted as if they are the 'victims':
“Gays can undermine the moral authority of homo-hating churches over less fervent adherents by portraying [them] as antiquated backwaters, badly out of step … with the latest findings of psychology. Against the atavistic tug of ‘Old Time Religion’ one must set the mightier pull of science and public opinion. … Such an ‘unholy’ alliance has already worked well in America against the churches, on such topics as divorce and abortion."
Don't be fooled by SHEEP IN WOLVE'S CLOTHING, for that is how satan is trying to undermine God's word, but twisting it, and making Christians appear 'unholy' and sinners justified in their sins.
Furthermore, as for all of the false teachings of homosexuality, they can be summed up in one bible verse: I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHO STRENGTHENS ME...that also includes overcoming homosexual desires and sin.
cmrk,
I'm not talking about temptation. I'm discussing the idea that homosexuality is somehow a choice/product of someone's upbringing rather then something ingrained in them. (Which, I'm not stating to make you accept homosexuality. Other people have already made the claim that there are plenty of people who are naturally predisposed to a lot of things that are sinful) I'm going to assume you're heterosexual. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but going on. Being heterosexual means you're attracted to members of the opposite sex. Someone who has gone through reparative therapy and is now heterosexual, wouldn't be tempted by gay sex. I've heard many speakers give testimony as to how they are now completely heterosexual, married to someone of the opposite sex, etc. Yet, most of them still claim to be tempted by members of the same sex. That doesn't sound like heterosexuality to me.
I say all this because, based on what I've seen, reparative therapy isn't working, is based on out-dated methods, and isn't helping anyone's cause, anywhere. How about we try something a little more humane? Or do you honestly think that Jesus likes us to back methods that help contribute to the suicide rate and has broken many young minds past the point of no return?
Rowen,
The truth is that we are all sinful and we all need God's love and forgiveness. We all have sinful natures that Jesus gave his life for. Temptation is not sin. We are all tempted. Jesus was tempted by all things but did not sin. I am sure that all ex-gays are sexually tempted to go back, just as all non-gays are sexually tempted. We all need God's mercy and forgiveness which is provided freely in Christ. God loves everyone - and there is power in the Holy Spirit to stop sexually sinning whether that be masturbation, the homosexual act, adultery, or premarital sex.
Blessedman,
Do you have any proof that "born gay" is a lie? For every ex-gay person I've meet, there's an ex-ex-gay person who claims it doesn't work. And that's not counting all the ex-gays I've heard talk about being cured, but still being tempted. (If you are no longer homosexual, then how can you be tempted by the same sex?) Furthermore, if it's some strange society thing, then why are there many documented cases of animals, in the wild even (so it's not just a captivity thing), who choose same sex partners?
(Note: At the moment, I don't say this so that you all will suddenly change your minds and embrace homosexuality. I say this because, like I've stated before, there's something about homosexuality that turns us from rational people into idiots willing to read any article and claim it as fact. One of my favorite quotes is "No one is entitled to an opinion. Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion.")
The whole "born gay" marketing campaign was brilliant. One man wrote a book pushing for gays to use that concept, and he even admitted as a gay man that he didn't believe it to be true. (He himself mentioned nurture, for example.) But he said that gays had to use the lie because the "religious" people would clobber them if they didn't. That's a very telling comment.
Pretty much from that point on, the younger generation heard two messages: (1) born gay, and (2) being against the sin of homosexuality is equal to a mental disease (homo-phobic). Tremendous marketing plan, on the level of "Coke is it" or the Army's old "Be all that you can be."
But now, both sides are in a foxhole, and the vast middle is trained from childhood in the "truth" that Christians are by nature evil. Tolerance is the one virtue left, therefore lack of tolerance is the one sin left. Christians become de-facto forces of darkness.
I deal with teens all the time. It's unbelieveable how the teen culture has embraced homosexuality in only the last few years. What is really interesting is that, since the born-gay lie has spread, even Christians have lost focus. It's not "gay" people vs straight people! It's people who choose to do some acts.
Some people are tempted to homosexual thoughts and acts, and partake. Others are tempted, but since they came to God, they fight to go God's way in spite of their feelings. Homosexuality is therefore like any other sin - there are Christians who struggle with it. It's not "gay vs straight" it's Christ vs not-Christ.
Can you "espouse racism" without being racist? Just curious.
I am in good company then. God calls homosexuality a sin too. Maybe he was a Nazi too?
Prophet: I did not say anyone here was a racist, but if you see homosexuality as wrong, you share an opinion with the KKK, Hitler, et. al. Every person I have ever seen on TV or read about who is a "racial sepratist" or anti-Semite is also against homosexuality.
So even though you claim not to be racist, on this issue you are in league with them. (This was the reason I first started to question my own views on the issue.)
That's interesting. I'm not racist, and I preach that homosexuality is a sin. I think that makes your comment incorrect.
Dear Shequon, homosexuality is no greater sin that any other sin. The nature of it, however, is a great deal more personal and emotional than most sin. It is also in direct violation of God's command to "be fruitful and mustiply." If I found someone involved in a destructive sin, the Word of Jesus commands me to act in this way, "If you see your brother in sin, you who are spiritual restore such a one." Restore in this context means help him or her see their sin and share God's remedy with them. God's remedial steps are: acknowledgement, confession, and repentence (turning from the sin). Restoration is only possible after the sin has been dealt with and covered by the blood of Jesus. Jesus then says, "Go and sin no more." The Apostle John wrote that we will sin, but that Jesus is faithful and true to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrightwousness. He also wrote that lifestyle sinners should be considered unrepentant nonbelievers. The Apostle Paul wrote that although believers will be tempted, the Lord will provide an escape, and therfore, we need not yield to temptation. The sin of homosexuality is addictive for nonbelievers. It is non-existant for believers. That is why God commanded that those who practice it must be excluded from among His people.
Interesting, gadfly. I also don't believe it's a coincidence that all the organizations and individuals which still espouse racism are also against homosexuality. I think those who are so sure they're on the right side of this issue need to think about with whom they share this view.
And so the god of this world speaks. His hands grip the minds of the ignorant, and they heed his voice. They heap sin upon sin, and there is nothing but lust and perversion in their hearts. Their ears itch to hear good things. "Tell us what we want to hear." They say. Their hearts are closed to the voice of God. They follow after that which pleases them. They do not want to hear of God's holiness. But they follow after satan's voice, like an oxen led by the nose ring, being led to their bondage. All the while they profess God's name, but He does not acknowlege them. Their voice is forgeign to Him. He does not know them. Their sin will chase them down, and bring calamity upon them. And in their judgement they will call out to God, but He will not be found. And they, because of their arrogance and rebellion, will eat the fruit of their sin. And it will be bitter in their bellies.
Some, if not the majority of, fundamentalists maintain that homosexuality is sin. They justify their position primarily on 1) Scripture, 2) tradition and 3) science. They work tirelessly to manipulate the legal system to enshrine their particular religious beliefs into law.
For centuries, these individuals - fervent in their theological beliefs - also used Scripture, tradition and science to justify the institution slavery.
Justification for Slavery: Scripture
The Old and New Testament Scriptures were used to justify slavery. Genesis 9:25-27, Exodus 21:2-6, Exodus 21:7-11, Exodus 21:20-21, Leviticus 25:44-46, Luke 12:47-48 , Ephesians 6:5, 1 Timothy 6:1-2.
Justification for Slavery: Tradition
They hold their position with the same defensive tenacity and arguments as their fundamentalist forbears did to justify subjugating Africans to slavery in the Americas from the early 1600s to 1865. For example, it was not until 1995 that the Southern Baptist Convention formally denounced its pro-slavery position (This Side of Heaven: Race, Ethnicity, and Christian Faith. Edited by Robert J. Priest and Alvaro L. Nieves. Oxford University Press, 2007, pp 275 and 339).
Other denominations were also complicit in their overt or tacit approval of slavery. For example, it was not until 1890 that the Catholic Church finally spoke out against “the institution itself, noting that slavery was incompatible 'with the brotherhood that unites all men"' (Noonan, (1993) "Development in Moral Doctrine," Theological Studies 54, p. 675).
Justification for Slavery: Science
In 1853-1855, Joseph Arthur Comte de Gobineau wrote “Essai sur l'Inégalité des Races Humaines” (Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races). He used biblical and theological arguments to bolster his slant on the young science of anthropology vis-à-vis racism. He maintains that "Ethnic differences are permanent." Gobineau also boasts that "Adam is the author of our white species." (Adam soit l’auteur de notre espèce Blanche). He also declares that “Creatures not part of the white race are not part of that species; in effect, they are inferior.” (Les créatures qui ne sont pas partie de la race Blanche ne sont pas partie de cette espèce ; en effet, elles sont inférieures.)
Whites, Gobineau says, are superior to all other races. No other race will ever be as noble as the white race. His treatise quickly became a best-seller within racist circles desperately wishing to justify and bolster slavery while in its death throes.
Christian faith traditions which once used Scripture, tradition and science to defend slavery and racism have grown to condemn these practices and attitudes. I am hopeful that dialogue will continue between Christians of goodwill and intellectual ability with regards to advancing the cause of equal civil rights for gays and lesbians.
Yes, God loves them just the way they are. That is why Jesus came and died. Because He loves them.
"For while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us."
But, just as an earthly father does not want his children to do things that will hurt them, so God does not want His spiritual children to do things which will hurt them and separate them from Him for eternity.
Oh how God loves the sinner. But their rebellion will keep them from Him...not Him from them.
The way a person is born and the way God wants them to be are two totally separate things. To say that God made them way is a lie. And to say that "because God made them that way" they aren't going to change is just simple laziness and egocentric. They have created a god in their image. He is impotent and worthless. But the true God of all the universe, Y'w'h, Jehovah, The I Am, Jesus Christ, all of which is His name, He can change a person He has done so many times before. But only those who want to be changed. If a person wants to continue in sin, then they are responsible for the judgement to come. They can blame no one else. Sure, they can blame their god, but why? They created him in their image, so if there is something wrong with their god, then the problem stems from them. But their god is not loving. He is the god of this world. He wants them to continue to walk the road of destruction. Though it is paved comfortably with tolerance, the end is destruction. He makes it as comfortable as possible.
He whispers in the ears of the simple saying "If God really loved you, He would let you do whatever you want, without fear of consequences. He wouldn't ask you to change who you are. Afterall, I don't judge you. You're fine. Everyone is fine. Except those who preach holiness."
And all the while, the ignorant walk that road, not seeing the destination. They are busy listening to the father of lies. And angel of light.
God help them see that you do love them, and you want them to be with you. You are a God of love, but you are also a God of holiness. And that which is not holy cannot be in your presence.
Glory to our God, who is eternal. Whose love knows no end.
Yes, we need to ask whether they truly want us to love them, or whether they want us to accept their sinful lifestyle and cede ground to their cause. A part of me feels that this is just a political manuver in order to gain support from the religious sect in order to promote their agenda. Are they truly wanting our love? If so, then they must accept the knowledge that they will be told that they are living a sinful life, and that there is hope of change in Jesus.
But to be so immature to ask us to love them for the sole reason of easing their conscience, is ridiculous. We will love them. God will love them. But they will still eat of the fruit of their sin. Do they want our love so that they won't have to bear that fruit? If I was a drug user, and I wanted Christians to love me, but yet keep up my drug habit, would that be acceptable? Christians, and God, would still love me. But if I were to have an overdose, or kill someone while high, it is my own fault. I alone would bear the consequences of my actions. And to say that God doesn't love me because of that is a lying spirit.
If they want us to love them, they must be willing to accept that love. Check out www.isaiahscry.blogspot.com. Specifically the article titled "Where's the Love? Part 2: Tough Love."
The Word of God tells me to HATE THE SIN AND LOVE THE SINNER. I think it's pretty plain. The gays and lesbians like their lifestyle. And yes, it's all about being accepted. Let the world accept them. One thing for sure: THEY ARE NOT IN THE KINGDOM!
Gay's are not looking to Christians for love, thgeir looking for acceptance. They need to look to God for love and ask themselves and God does He accept their lifestyle. Sure God loves us but He does not approve of a sinful lifestyle regardless of the sin. Repentance is the key here. So many people confuse forgiveness with repentance. Forgiveness is identifying were are sinners and our lifestyle has been one that displays sin against God and asking His forgiveness for those sins sincerely. Repentance follows closely behind with a willingness to change the lifestyle and changing it. God accepts us just as we are for the purpose of seeking His forgiveness and repenting of our actions. We must understand that God is paradoxical and He himself hates. He loves the sinner but hates sin.
Bowen
I meant to write challa50780@mypacks.net. I would be glad to hear from you and I will cover you in prayer.
No. I don't want anyone to be hateful. But I'm saying the hatred often comes from the gay community - don't discount that. It's not OK even if they've had a hard time. I also said that if you know God loves you and you honestly believe that you are striving daily to please HIM (not humans), then you can stand through ANY trial. I have. Like anyone, I often face persecution but I am 100% secure in the fact that God's see everything and that He is guiding me through it all. I also know that whatever suffering I face is part of my assignment. The will of God often involves trails and tribulations. Paul was opposed persecuted and executed. Stephen was stoned to death. Jesus was crucified. Yet all gladly completed their assignment. That's the kind of resolve you have when you know you are in the will of God. When you know deep in your heart you desire 1) to please God, 2) to work hard to depart from anything that displeases him (though it takes time), then you also can stand through any trial. IWhen you are troubled by perceived anti-gay actions, do you find solace in the fact that God is with you? If not perhaps you need a closer walk with him. Then you, too can say and mean these words, "no weapon formed against me shall prosper." Is 54.17 I will pray for you and you can email me at challa50780@earthlink.net. Yours in Christ, Pammie
Pammie,
I'm not sure I get what you're saying. Are you saying it's ok for Christians to be hateful and act foolish because there are gay people (many who've had a VERY hard time with the Christian community) who are hateful and act foolish?
Rowen:
What you say may be true to some degree - some Christians are more hard-line with gays than with others. But I feel that disdain the other way, too - from gays toward Bible-believing Christians. Some despise us simply for believing the Bible. If you truly feel justified, why hate the one who disagrees with you? When people oppose me, (and many do) I don't worry because I know God will fight my battles as long as I strive daily to do His will. Do you feel that he will fight for your cause also? If so, don't worry what others say. If you truly believe that your life is in line with God's will "no weapon formed against you shall prosper." Is. 54:17
Rowen,
Just making sure, you know we have to be careful, nowadays people seem to believe that the sin and person are inseparable. I agree with your position.
Chris,
Go over what I said again. Usually, "love the sinner, hate the sin" comes with actions that say that the person actually "hates the sin, and hates the sinner even more." I'm not, nor have I ever, advocated that we should go around telling people that everything is ok. However, and if you will actually read what I'm saying, is that when we deal with other sins, we recognize that the sinners are human. When we deal with homosexuality, we become raving lunatics who are incapable of holding a rational conversation and we start seeing more conspiracy theories then a lonely teenager reading J.D. Salinger.
Rowen,
Any "Christian" who "pistol-whips" another for their sin, is not a Christian. I do wonder what you propose to put in place of "Love the sinner, hate the sin"? Would you ammend this to be, "love the sinner, love the sin"? Or "hate the sinner, love the sin"? Or a final possiblity would be, "hate the sinner, hate the sin". The only valid possibility for a Christian is indeed to, "love the sinner and hate the sin". We can be friends with homosexuals, just the same as we can be friends with Hindus, just the same as we can be friends with murderers. We can show them God's love in numerous ways. But one thing we cannot do as Christians, is accept their behavior and tell them that everything is ok. I would not tell a Hindu person, "Well, since God loves you, it doesn't matter if you do not believe in Jesus Christ if you want to go to heaven." Rather I will tell him the truth, the same goes for others.
Here's a little bit of trivia for ya. The Bible can't condemn the modern day concept of homosexuality because the modern day concept of homosexuality was coined about 150 years ago, or so.
What it can do, though, is condemn actions. I'm not about to open that can of worms, since I've found that arguing online ends up being more about self gratification then anything else.
What I can say, and have said time and time again (even though some people insist on putting words in my mouth) is that when many Christians judge and condemn (or whatever you want to call it) other sins besides homosexual acts, they tend to remember the human. You don't see liars, divorcees, atheists, non-Christians, etc being pistol whipped and left to die of exposure because "God told me to." There's also, usually, a certain level of toleration. As in, "I'm probably not going to convince my Hindu neighbors that they are sinners by yelling and screaming and trying to change the First Amendment so that they can't worship, so why don't we act neighborly and invite them to church on Sunday or dinner." Yet, all this goes right out the window when the topic of homosexuals pops up. Suddenly, everyone knows exactly what God is thinking and exactly what our fellow humans are thinking. We become unneighborly and inhumane. I once saw a news report where a Christian social worker took a child out of her foster parents' home, because the parents were lesbians, and tried to put the child back with her birth mother, who was still a crack addicted prostitute, but heterosexual. That's not love. That's not godliness. That's human stupidity and egotism.
Frankly, I've heard enough of people spouting "love the sinner, hate the sin." The actions that many Christians take do not show love. I'm saying that you have to wholly embrace their lifestyle, but this vitriol has got to stop. Jesus said to love God with all our hearts and to love one another as we love God. If that's how you love God, He must be very sad.
ifeelfine
>>>GMG - I didn't say the Bible only talked about homosexual victimization. I also included lust in those things. In any case, one man one woman isn't the only relationship mentioned in the Bible - in the OT there were one man many women relationships and God certainly seems ok with many of those. In any case, the Bible says nothing about gay relationships as we know them today unless you count Ruth & Naomi or Jonathon and David. <<<
Multiple wives falls into the same category as divorce in the OT. The theme is the same in both the OT and the NT; one woman, one man under covenant. I know I don't have to list a bunch of verses, you know them as well as I do.
And sure, the Bible DOES say something about gay relationships "as we know them today", such as in "there's nothing new under the sun". You're fooling yourself.
The Ruth/Naomi, Jonathan/David idea is totally without merit and you know that too. I believe the Hebrew used has been covered more than once to point out the fallacy that the word for "love" had any sexual connotation at all.
ifeelfine, you have situations in your family that you are trying to find answers for, and as a result have bought into all this unbiblical dogma on homosexuality. Did you ever go to the Joe Dallas' website that I gave you so long ago? Did you at least consider what he had to say? There are plenty of testimonies from ex-gays all over the internet. Have you ever looked into any of them? Or are you so comfortable with the justifications you think you have found that you refuse to look any further.
Only God knows your true heart, it is to Him that you must go for answers, not to people who have a stake in convincing you of their view in order to justify their behavior. I have no stake in what you believe about homosexuality, other than as a Christian who believes fully that God reveals His will and purpose to those who seek diligently. Whether you continue to uphold homosexuality or not has no personal repercussion for me in my life here on earth, as I am an no way responsible for your decisions, nor do I have to live with them. But if you are my Christian brother, I surely don't want to face my Lord with some flimsy excuse as to why I refused to speak out. So, I leave you in God's most capable hands, and wish for you His peace in all things.
In Christ.
ifeelfine,
You run into a problem though. If the Bible only condemns lustful homosexual relationships, and blesses loving homosexual relationships, then why is homosexuality brought up at all? Why can the Bible not say simply "lustful" relationships. Indeed if homosexual relationships are only wrong in the same situations that heterosexual relationships are wrong, then we should naturally expect no distinction to be made.
The OT and NT are clear that homosexual relationships are sinful, regardless of lust or abuse. Though we do now interpret the OT through the Person of Christ, it is highly unlikely that God would change from finding homosexual relationships as an abomination, to now accepting and approving them. You must either 1) assume that the Bible is flawed or 2) assume that God contradicts Himself. In either case, you completely undermine your position, if the Bible is flawed, then who is to say what is actually true in it? How can we trust any of it? What standard to we use to judge it? And, if God is contradictory then He either does not exist or is not the same God as is portrayed in the Bible, either way to accept such a view is to undermine your own position.
GMG - I didn't say the Bible only talked about homosexual victimization. I also included lust in those things. In any case, one man one woman isn't the only relationship mentioned in the Bible - in the OT there were one man many women relationships and God certainly seems ok with many of those. In any case, the Bible says nothing about gay relationships as we know them today unless you count Ruth & Naomi or Jonathon and David.
One of the biggest issues I find in today's permissive culture is when someone is living a destructive lifestyle, they use the phrase "live and let live" (A pagan phrase used by most occultist); yet, they are not thinking or concerned of the hurt they will cause others in the process of living this way. They get offended when someone tells them IN LOVE that they are headed in the right direction, but yet they choose to go down that path (by their own free will), because those who may show LOVE by telling them the truth and the consequences of their actions are considered offensive to them.
Sadly, this permissiveness is already in the church, and many church movements and denominations that were once biblically sound in their practices and teachings have become hertics and ear ticklers allowing rampant liberalism, and false teachings to water down the Scriptures and teach "every wind of doctrine" to suit what the hearers want to hear, and not what they need to hear.
Those of you who still think it is ok to be gay and call yourselves Christian need to truly pray and seek God, because his Word is the measuring stick for our lives, and ultimately has the final say in our lives if Christ is our Lord. If we cal ourselves Christians, then we will obey God's Word; The whole counsel of God, not the bits and pieces we want. This is how we grow, and mature into the beings Christ wants us to be. Sure, anyone can pick one book out of the Bible and create a whole doctrine out of it, but this skews what God has for us.
Please open your eyes to the Lord, and listen to His voice. He is calling, and He loves you, but you need to love, honor, and respect His Word. That means, you need to love what He loves, and hate what He hates. That is we are to hate sin - all sin. He is the one who declares what is and what is not sin; not you or I. We are only called to either believe what He has declared and choose to obey or disobey it. The ball is in your court. Don't be deceived; we as sinful humans have the tendency within us to hear what we want, and to twist Scriptures to adapt to our culture, our surroundings, etc, when the Scriptures should not be adapting, but rather, they should be changing our culture, and our surroundings; i.e. not the culture change our biblical beliefs to fit with the current trends or opinions in the culture.
Anything else is false doctrine, and will be condemned by God. I will be praying for your eyes to be opened to the absolute truth of the Word of God.
I can say that as a Christian, I am commanded to love the sinner and hate the sin. We are commanded in Scripture to love what God loves, and hate what God hates. I can choose to show love to homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, drunkards, etc.. as a fellow human, but need to say that the lifestyle that some people choose to live out is not God's best for them. I have included some more Scriptures to show you that Homosexuality as well as a number of other sins is not pleasing to God. If we profess to be born again, and there is an evident desire to change and to repent, then that pleases God. Otherwise, we are in disobedience to our Lord and Savior. If we confess our sins, HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Once we chose to follow Christ and accept Him as Lord and Savior, we also choose to die to our flesh, our wills, and choose to pick up our cross daily and follow Christ.
Leviticus 18:22
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
The leviticus passage really leaves no room for interpretation does it?
1 Kings 14:24
24 There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
A proverbial term of reproach applied to those who practiced sodomy (ritual homosexuality) (Deuteronomy 23:17; 1 Kings 14:24;15:12;22:46; 2 Kings 23:7; Job)
And is applied to males (Deuteronomy 23:17)
Destroyed by fire as a judgement (Genesis 19:24,25)
Wickedness of (Genesis 19:4-14)
The word "harlot" ("shrine prostitute" (N. I. V.)) appears in (Genesis 38:21,22)
And is the translation of a Hebrew feminine form of the word translated elsewhere "sodomite" (Hosea 4:14)
To be judged according to opportunity (Matthew 11:24; Luke 10:12)
See SODOMY"
Rowen and ifeelfine,
You can argue about sins all you want, but you either need to consider all sins, as in "none righteous, no not one", or deal with whichever particular sin you want to address. Adultery and homosexuality, along with fornication, and a few others, fall into a sexual sin category, but after that they split paths. Divorce in and of itself is not adultery, so it does not even fit into the same category.
ALL sexual sin can have negative consequences for a family. And that being the case, we come back to the only sexual relationship that is given to us as healthy in the Bible, and that is covenant union between one man and one woman.
I am also familiar with many of the arguments for a "loving, committed same sex couple" being somehow different than anything addressed in the Bible. But I see two particular things relative to this argument.
First, if you are of the opinion that the Bible does not expressly address this kind of committed relationship and therefore, under the basis of "love one another" it is allowed, I don't agree. Where the Bible DOES address covenant relationships, it ALWAYS states a man and a woman. Furthermore, if you will go to Romans 13 you will see that Jesus' two commandments of "love" lead you right back into the law. So "love one another" does not give license for this type of broad interpretation.
Secondly, under the argument that, where the Bible deals with homosexuality it is only referring to a victim type of relationship, in Rom 1:27 it says "Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned IN THEIR LUST FOR ONE ANOTHER, ......." This describes a consentual relationship. And lest you argue that lust is not the same as love, then you must argue that a healthy loving man/woman marriage does not contain any lust in the sexual relationship. Shall we take a poll from all the marrieds here to see what their take on this is?
Using the same arguments you all use for homosexual relationships, we can apply the same things to any number of other relationships also. What you are arguing is what "feels right, what seems fair, how to neatly resolve today's issues", etc. etc. etc. God is not about any of those things. He is about His design, His purpose, His standards. This is the awesome, creator God we're talking about here, and His will does not involve any kind of democratic process. There are many things in the Bible we find hard, depending upon what our particular proclivity is. Each of us individually must "choose you this day whom you will follow". And answer to God for those choices.
Quecat: You didn't address loving same sex relationships. You talked about lustful relationships - the same type of relationships that are sinful if heterosexuals engage in them.
Love? What they want, now and when this all began 50 years ago, is acceptance and approval for their reprobate life style. When will the Church wake up?
A victimless sin? No.
As believers we must recognize that we are created in His image; male and female He created them. Also, the God-given covenant of marriage between a man and woman mirrors the relationship between Christ and His church. As the church we are His bride.
A relationship other than man-woman seeks to warp the image which God made of Himself and dishonors the groom-bride relationship expressed in Christ being groom to the church.
A Victimless sin? No. God's very image is mocked.
When men or women engage in homosexual behavior or when they dwell on the fantasies of submitting themselves sexually to the same sex, they desecrate that which God created in His image.
1 Cor. 6:19 & 20
"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."
1 Cor 6:18 "Flee from sexual immorality (fornication). All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body."
FORNICATION is the selected English word translation of the Greek 'porneia' - which is used to describe illicit sexual behavior/intercourse including adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
Victimless sin? No. Your own body is victimized by fornication and you are not your own.
Rom 8:5-8 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
Rom 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
Divorce is as wrong as any other sin. Once a person receives Jesus Christ, they should not consider divorce an option. All have sinned, but we don't have to CONTINUE sinning. People that have been divorced should repent and not do it again. People in ANY sin should repent and not do it again. We all fall short - but we should REPENT NOT REPEAT.
GMG,
Unfortunately, I haven't seen this movement or discussion against divorce. Sure, it gets mentioned now and then, but there's NOTHING like the vitriol hurled at gays, or the money that gets poured into Love Won Out. Divorcees aren't being disowned by their families or having someone sweep in and take their homes and children away. There's large, public campaign to amend the Constitution so that marriage means one man, one woman ONCE. Yet, divorce seems to represent a larger threat to the Christian community then some gays who want to get some secular rights. Not to mention there's plenty of prime time TV shows that show divorced couples, adulterers, and premarital sex. And yet, when ever I see Focus on the Family spouting out messages of hate, it's usually towards gays.
As for gay rights, let me put it this way. Plenty of people believe it to be a sin and that gays are going to hell. There's plenty of people who also believe that non-Christians and atheists are going to hell as well. Yet, these same people are, seemingly, ok with their neighbors and coworkers being non-Christians. Sure, there's some preaching and evangelicizing going on, but again, it's not with the same hatred and passion that goes into hating homosexuals. Why can't we treat homosexuals the same as all those other sinners? (Oh, and before anyone mentions this, there is NO gay agenda. Just as there's no black agenda, or Jew agenda, or illegal immigrant agenda, or whatever minority is currently in vogue. What you're seeing is people who don't believe the same as you and are tired of being treated like they are retarded children, as opposed to adults who can make their own choices)
Rowan: I couldn't agree more - I've been saying exactly the same thing.
GMG: I agree with some of what you said but have to take issue with others. There is a lot going on in the Christian community for both marriage and divorce however the vitriol is saved for the gay folks. There is a special brand of disdain saved for them.
Also, divorced people don't have to obtain special rights because they don't have any of their's taken away. Imagine if the law of the land treated divorce the same way it treats the idea of gay marriage. There would be suggestions of adding an amendment to the Constitution to ban divorce and remarriage, there would be outcries, etc. And yet, no one here takes that kind of stance on divorce and remarriage. Does anyone here rebuke their Christian brother or sister for getting remarried after a divorce? You should. Its a bigger issue for families than gay marriage and if you believe that homosexuality is a sin then you absolutely have to believe that divorce / remarriage is too.
I have to disagree on one other thing too. If a divorcee is repentant and admits that they were wrong to get a divorce then they should be allowed to have a position of authority in the church (if they are remarried then obviously they can't).
Rowen,
Actually, there is quite a lot of things going on in the Christian community on marriage/divorce. If you are a member of a church, I would imagine your pastor preaches on it, the sunday school classes address it, oftentimes there are special studies offerred on the subject also. And of course, go to any Christian bookstore and you will find a lot on the subject.
Maybe part of the reason it doesn't appear to be as front-and-center as some things, is because there is no movement abroad by speciality groups to obtain some type of special considerations and legislative privileges for "the divorced". So we're not constantly bombarded in the media regarding this subject.
Could we, should we, as Christians put more time and effort into dealing with this subject within our churches? Perhaps. There are a lot of churches who will not appoint divorced people to positions of authority. But I personally think the problem goes beyond just divorce. The problem is really about being bible-centered. If we would stop being "of this world", and instead be in God's word, growing and living through His will for us, we would be doing a much better job of living for His kingdom in all areas of our lives.
Here's the main thing I don't get here.
There is nothing in the saying of Jesus that says he was for or against gays. (the rest of the bible. . . well, that's another story for another day) He was, however, very clear on his stance of divorce. I'm not saying that one sin is greater or lesser then another, gays make up a minority of the population, whereas 50% of marriages end in divorce. Why do I not see a movement in the Christian community with just as much strength as emotion behind it, combating divorce as well? We talk about family values, and what about the children and all, and based on numbers, that seems like a much larger threat, and I don't see anyone doing anything about it.
Am I wrong to think this?
tomsj
1. Christians are called to minister the Gospe to ALLl. Not mind other people's business.
2. People who mind other people's business do so because they don't have a life themselves.
3. If you are not intereste in "the church" why are you reading a conservative Christian website???
As a very contented, cohabitating homosexual, I can assure you that I am not looking to "the Church" for love. I had the good sense to realize years ago (before I realized that I was gay) that "the Church" was not my friend and that christians were, in fact, a sect of people that had empowered themselves to mind my business for me. I have no need for "the Church" to nourish my spirit. I can manage that myself - through love and commitment to my family, friends and community. So, please spare us your love. We're better off without it.
pammie,
Interesting point. If I could give my view. First, it is important to know that we do not need to change anyone, rather we need to let God work in a person's life. That being said, some people do not want help, of course we cannot force them to accept our advice, but we should make our position clear and not waiver on it. It is okay to be firm in our position, even if it offends.
If we had a friend driving a car and they were going to drive off a cliff, but were unaware, then we would do everything we could to get them to change where they are going, but if they reject our advice then, oh well, we did what we could. In any case, consoling the friend and saying, "It is okay, if you like driving in this direction and it makes you happy then you can continue on" is nearly the worst thing one can do, (the only worse may be to provoke them and cause them to want to drive off the cliff). We need to reach out in love, and realize the responsibility is not ours.
Mexjewel,
Jesus gave two commandments, not one, He said to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Some things do not hurt anyone, but hurt wasnt the definition of right and wrong given to us. For that matter, pleasure and happiness aren't the measure of what is good. Homosexuality may or may not hurt anyone, but in either case it goes against the order that God has created and His will.
Jesus still Jesus still defines sin as lack of love (Matthew 22:36-40). Fornication and adultery are unloving because each has a victim. What is unloving about a couple in a homosexual love relationships ? Neither is victim, neither is unloved. Where is the hurt? Who is the victim being sinned against?
Eddyboy,
LOL. Good for you, and praise the Lord! I'm sure your letter was kind and respectful, but I hope you put a little spice into it, just to remind him of the merits of "true" Christian love ... and appropriate discretion :^)
God Bless.
Years ago my testimony of leaving the gay life appeared in a prominent Christian Magazine. Several letters to the editor appeared in the following issue. One was from a small town pastor who questioned why they'd print such trash since most of us would not ever come in contact with homosexuals. LOL! He was from my hometown! I knew the neighbors on either side of his parsonage. Naturally, I was able to secure his street address rather quickly and sent him a warm Christian letter detailing this unique irony and the unreached that he was overlooking.
Homosexuality is no worse as any other sin. We must lovingly impart that God's love is greater than sin and that Jesus died for EVERYONE. At the same time we are compelled to encourage people to depart from all sin including same-sex fornication. The problem is many gay people don't want to change. They want nothing less than full acceptance of their sexuality. They say they consider suggestions of change hateful and hurtful. How does the church contend with that? Feedback please.
I totally agree, schemeroo. People do not like to have their behavoir called sin or wrong. That is the nature of the flesh. This is where we must trust the Holy Spirit to do the work from within without having to compromise what the Bible says. It takes a true leading of the Lord to get this done. We also must realize that each person will have to choose what they want to do. We must make sure that our lives cannot be used as an excuse for those in any sin to reject the gospel. The Lord will help those of us that truly want to reach others for Christ.
I think the biggest challenge is certain groups confuse Christ's open-ness and love for all with a general open-ness to all sin. Case in point, Obama uses the sermon on the mount to also justify accepting a gay lifestyle. While of course Jesus came for the sinner, yes, he came for the sinner (which includes all of us)... There is no politically correct way to minister biblically without calling homosexuality a sin. Just making the statement that the church should reach out to homosexuals the same way they reach out to, say drug abusers, can be VERY offensive to homosexuals and many non-homosexuals. Its not an easy question for today's biblically anchored church.
The Bible give no wiggle room on the matter either.
You can love people and not agree with their sinful decisions they make. I have done this for many years. The homosexuals/lesbians that I dealt with knew that I did not agree with decisions they made when they went back into their sin. I never condemn them. Many times I tried to get them to keep in touch with me. Many of them did even though they were not living according to the word.
Every Christian has baggage or sin issues of some kind when they come to Christ or else we would not have seen our need for Him. We are all walking free from things. The only way that people will walk free from any sin is communion with the Lord and loving guidance from more mature believers. Unfortunately many Christians have been children in dealing with this issue. My sincere prayer that more Christians will be Christians and reach out to those in the sin of homosexuality like they do people in other sins.
I've heard this broadcast, it's very good. One thing that spoke out to me was at the end.
It seems a Christian radio broadcaster was speaking to gays and lesbians over the radio. The broadcaster said that if there were any gay or lesbian people who wanted to know Jesus, and who wanted help with this particular lifestyle, that they should pray the lord's prayer. After she prayed, she asked that if anybody had prayed that prayer, they are to do two things; One is to find a local church and ask the local pastor what should be their next move. Second, they should write a letter back to this radio broadcaster and inform them of their new committment.
It seems that there was a gay individual listening that day, who prayed that prayer. This person wrote a letter as he was asked. In the letter he wrote that he did indeed go to a local church, and after the service walked up to the pastor and told him that he had prayed this prayer and was sent to him to find out what to do next.
The pastor said "Well, you know there is no room for fags here".
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This is basically what this article is pointing to. We are called to love one another. The problem is that some churches have gone the legalistic path instead of the path of love and reconciliation.
Beloved, if I were attending a church that denied entrance to somebody just because they were homosexual, I would stop attending that church. They should be just as welcome as the thief, the idolator, the covetor, the drunkard, etc., and etc.
However, with that being said, I would also leave that church if the preaching of the Word of God is compromised. What is condemned in the Bible should be condemned behind the pulpit, and likewise for what is condoned. There should be no compromise whatsoever. Sinners are more than welcome in our church, as it is made up of nothing but. But each one will hear God's word as it is written, with no compromise on truth.
"He went on to note that the organization believes sex outside of marriage, whether it is homosexual or heterosexual, is a sin, citing the Bible. And the group will continue to take a stand on public policy issues defending families and traditional marriage."
So....it's a sin to have sex outside of marriage, and only traditional marriage is allowed. Not a lot of wiggle room, is there? Does Dobson even think about what he's saying as it comes out? Not loving people as they are is not Christian.
Obviously this article is in response to the recent embarassing speech by Sally Kern. Time will tell if we've learned anything from it. This is a start.
Christians that really want to reach out to those bound by that sin will have to have thick skins along with the love of God. In many cases just saying their sin is wrong will provoke a long tonguelashing like you would not believe.
I have experienced this first hand. I attended a Christian college (ORU) many years ago. I participated in a choir. We have been trying to keep up with everyone. From time to time one person may send articles of interest about those involved in the choir. I live in Tulsa OK and get information quicker than other people about things related to ORU since it is local news to me. During the time when Bishop Carlton Pearson was attacked for his change in belief, including him supporting the persecution of Christians for preaching against THE SIN of homosexuality, I found out that one of the men in that choir had been in a same-sex relationship for over 20 years. I foudn out about it by having two or three emails slammed at me accusing me of everything in the book (hatemonger, bigot, etc.). It drove me to tears because he did not know that for almost six years I was a volunteer at an Exodus International minister for almost six years. I do not bother telling him that history because he had already judged me AND it was evident to me that I would have gotten another series of rebukes about the fact that I believe the Bible teaches that he is wrong and that he can change.
I had the pleasure of meeting Joe Dallas a couple of times during conferences that he spoke at locally. Same-sex relationships were never a temptation to me. However my heart broke when I heard preachers saying that AIDS was a curse against that sin. To this day my heart grieves over this. The ministry tried and tried their best to reach them and to help them walk free. Unfortunately the ministry got rebuked and other hostile responses. There is already a pompous attitude when it comes to sexual sins and singles in general. That pride really flares up when the sin is homosexuality and lesbianism.
Why the flagging of crc? There was nothing inappropriate in what he said.