Muslim's Cross-Less Jesus Film Draws Mixed Reactions

By Michelle A. Vu|Christian Post Reporter

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Habermas, who recently returned from a debate with a Muslim in England, said the idea that Jesus did not die on the cross for the salvation of mankind is based on surah 4:157-158 that says Jesus was not crucified.

He emphasized that the Qur’an does not say that Judas took Jesus’ place but only that he was not crucified. The interpretation of Judas dying in place of Jesus is only one of several popular Muslim explanations for why Jesus did not die on the cross.

But not all Christians are happy with the film. One blogger, who goes by the pen name “Dan Goldfinch” in his web log at WordPress.com, argues that not only the Bible but history also declares that Jesus was crucified.

“Jesus didn’t come to earth for mere respect,” wrote the Ohio-based preacher. “If Jesus has not been crucified then he has not been resurrected. If Jesus has not been resurrected from the dead, then Christians are without hope. We may as well party it up if Christ has not been Resurrected from the dead.”

Goldfinch further said that what the Qur’an does not understand and explain is that man’s sin must be dealt with and if it is “not dealt with in the death of Christ then we, and all of humanity from the beginning until the end, are simply obligated to be 100 percent obedient to the law.”

“So if there is no death of Christ as this man is purporting in his film, then exactly how will we be saved from our sins?” the Christian blogger asked.

Director Talebzadeh meanwhile sees the film as an Islamic response to “The Passion of the Christ,” the 2004 blockbuster of self-professed Catholic Mel Gibson. Although the Iranian filmmaker praised Gibson’s movie, he said it was “wrong.”

“The Messiah,” with over 1,000 actors and extras, was one of the largest film productions in Iran, according to Variety magazine. It is the first movie to portray Jesus both from the Muslim and Christian perspective.

The film has already been released in Iran and will soon be available on the Internet, according to CNN.

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Creed3712 »

Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:31 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

Surat. 1:7
“The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace , not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)”

Ummmmm…. Let’s break it down.

Yes, the Lords anger will be kindled when any follower (Jew or Christian) goes after other gods or goes astray. But the Holy bible also states that if they will call out His name in the day of their distress that He will forgive and deliver them. The Lord will not break his promise that he has chosen Israel as his chosen people.

With that said this next statement has logic to it.

Now if you think about it (follow me here) the devil would make the statement “…those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)” because in Revelation 12:1-6 the beast is warring against the Jews and her offspring (gentiles turned Christen) because they follow the true Living God Almighty.

I do have a question for any Muslim. Please answer this question.
Muslims hates the Jews because of what the Quran says, correct?
Jesus is a Jews. He was born to a Jewish mother who was married to a Jewish man and grew up reading the Jewish Torah. (Remember, Muslim came about 800 years after the death of Jesus) .
So how can Muslim respect any Jew when you hate them all?
steiner »

Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:38 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 2

Michael_ca,

Sadly, If the Islamists truly respected Jesus they would not have replaced him with a murderer thief,rapist paedophile...and what not.

Those who do not respect Jesus ultimately replace Jesus. They move Him aside from the center of their faith and replace Him and His Word with their own religion and dogma.

When the Pharisees cried for Jesus to be crucified, they chose instead another to be freed in the place of Jesus. That was Barabbas. It is noted that Barabbas was a murderer.

How can one reconcile Jesus with mohammed? and call themselves honest?

What can the muslims possibly say against Jesus? or for that matter, anyone else who would care to criticize Jesus? Their mouths are shut by the very holy life that Jesus lived, not because of the inherent kindness of muslims, but because they have absolutely nothing to indict Jesus with...(Jesus, the Prince of Peace)

Yet, they have rebelled against Jesus, believed mohammed...and go round the world subverting and lying that mohammed was a man of peace...and that islam is a religion of peace, when they both clearly are not.

Muslims cannot defend mohammeds actions of thievery, rape, murder, and paedophilia...so they sanctify what mohammed did and threaten those who will call mohammed what he was: a sinner in need of repentance. They protest that they are not criticizing Jesus, so no one should criticise mohammed...but why should we not criticise a religion founded on murder and thievery, slavery and rape...

only a coldblooded person would call for others to respect this heinous injustice...

We criticise the popes, stalin, ghenghis khan, Mao, Hitler...Pol Pot...Jesus (the movie noted here)why should we leave mohammed out? because ? because ?
aritonang »

Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:50 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 1

here is another question x86,
during tawaf (circling the black stone seven times) if you feel like it, can you take a piss on the black stone? or do you piss on the kaaba afterwards?
how do you take a piss? sideways with one feet held high?
Michael_ca »

Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:36 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

steiner,

Who you are kidding man? Now you are even attacking me! (Proving my point, thank you).

I find following post from x86 to be kind and thoughtful. Really, just think about it.
You would not find even a single Muslim who would disrespect Jesus (peach be upon him) or Mary (peach be upon her). Not a single one. Don’t you find it rather odd, from a religion that (in your opinion) founded by a bad person? Just think about it.
steiner »

Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:02 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Michael_ca

You read my posts...and they did not please you...you felt offended? but that is not enough, is it?

That you are without ideas of your own...without a shred of explanation for your accusations...that does not bother you?

Matthew 15:12...

Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?

But Jesus answered and said, -Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.-

You sir, are free to keep your eyes closed, and free, as Jesus points out, to be led by blind guides of your choosing.
Michael_ca »

Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:25 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hey steiner,

It seems like to me, you are full hate. I just read your posts and others, you are pathetic man! If Jesus came for peace, you definetely have missed it!
steiner »

Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:13 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Sura 9:111] gOD has bought from the believers their lives and their money in exchange for Paradise. Thus, they fight in the cause of gOD, willing to kill and get killed. Such is his truthful pledge in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran - and who fulfills His pledge better than GOD? You shall rejoice in making such an exchange. This is the greatest triumph. (NO! THIS IS SATANS GREAT LIE!)

x86?

Is this what Jesus commanded his desciples to do? Perhaps you should begin to read what Jesus actually said...get a new testament and read up on the real Jesus, and stop trying to obfuscate by telling people to respect this homicidal call to peace....this is not peace...this is a call to kill and be killed...a call for the suicide of mankind...

Jesus said: I have come to save that which was lost...not to kill...

and in the name of Jesus I pray that He will open your eyes to the meaning of peace...convincing you that calls for the destruction of what God has come to save... is not peace...and is not of Jesus...but of satan, who from the beginning has meant to destroy mankind...through mass homicide and suicide...

_____________________________________________________________________
steiner »

Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:12 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

1086

All muslims say that they love and respect Jesus, but Jesus says " If you love me, you will obey my commandments." (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24)

Which of Jesus' comandaments/teachings do Muslims obey ? about anger, adultery, divorce, revenge, enemies, prayer, fasting... etc ? (matthew 5 and 6)

And yet with all the so called peace and respect that you claim that muslims give Jesus...Christians are persecuted in every muslim country...Those that convert to Christianity are threatened with death, and their churches and towns forced to close and suffer abuse.

When the Apostle Paul came to know Jesus...he stopped killing, he stopped persecuting...
steiner »

Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:11 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

It is a blatant and evil lie to claim that islam respects Jesus...please stop lying, and begin to speak the truth regarding Islams continued systematic violence and persecution against Christians.

Islam is a revealed religion and the way it was revealed provides the key to understanding wether or not true Muslims can coexist peacefully with others. The following information can be easily accessed in the West with little effort and research:

When Mohammed was contacted by the spirit (Jibrail) in the cave he was convinced he had been contacted by a harmful (evil) spirit and returned very distressed to his wife Khadijah, who thought otherwise, and to reassure Mohammed, she took him to her cousin Waraqa ibn Naufal, who, allegedly, was "a very old man who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians" and on this old man's OPINION , the spirit who had contacted Mohammed was declared as coming from God and that Mohammed was to become the Prophet of his people! (pages 10 and 11 of the introduction to the English translation of the Holy Quran by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall).

If this old man really knew the Christian Scriptures he would have told Mohammed that he had been contacted by an evil spirit (as Mohammed had correctly thought when the spirit had first appeared to him) on the basis of the biblical teaching found in the New Testament in the letter to the Galatians 1:8 where it is stated ..."if an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached (Jesus' gospel) let him be eternally condemned"...

To be brief... the Koran was revealed by a false spirit (a demon) as the translator Marmaduke Pickthall so unwittingly gives testimony to in his introduction of the Holy Quran page 11, 3rd paragraph: "the words which came to him (Mohammed) when in a state of trance are held sacred by the Muslims and are never confounded with those which he uttered when no physical change was apparent in him. The former are the Sacred Book (the Koran); the latter the Hadith or Sunnah...”

with that statement Pickthall is confirming that the Koran was recited by Mohammed while in a state of trance or in other words under demonic possession.

In the New Testament in the letter to the Ephesians 4:30 ..." God's Holy Spirit... gets rid of all bitterness, passion, anger... hateful feelings of any sort... instead makes you kind and tender hearted... forgiving one another... as God has forgiven you through Christ." This Spirit is not the same spirit that leads practicing Muslims to kill in the name of Allah. Any Christian who kills in the name of God betrays Jesus and His teachings (read Matthew 26:51-53) and is no longer a Christian. Any Muslim who refuses to kill in defense of Allah and his prophet is not a Muslim (sura 9:29 etc).
x86 »

Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:47 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

See here: http://www.islam.us/quran_arben.php
x86 »

Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:37 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Steiner, where did you find anything that says Mohammed is better the “Jesus”? I didn’t see anything in Quran.

Instead of reading articles/books about Quran, why don’t you read the Quran (well, its interpretation in English) itself? I assume that you don’t believe it to be divine; you think it is written by Mohammed. Let it be so. You have read many books written by human before. Didn’t you? Give it a try. Then you can disbelieve it, but at least knowingly disbelieve it. You won’t be fooled by other.

Muslim respect Jesus (peach be upon him) just as much they would respect any other messengers of God (including Mohammed puh).

If I can respect to the key religious figure of your religion, why can’t you show the same to the key religious figure of my religion? Why it would be so hard? You don’t have to agree on anything from that religion. If for nothing else, you can show respect because he is the founder of one of the significant religion of today’s world.

You would not find even a single Muslim who would disrespect Jesus (peach be upon him) or Mary (peach be upon her). Not a single one. Don’t you find it rather odd, from a religion that (in your opinion) founded by a bad person? Just think about it.
steiner »

Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:16 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Genesis satan is referred to as a serpent. In the New Testament, Jesus uses the appelation of snakes and vipers. when referring to some..

In the temptation of Adam and Eve, satan uses scripture with his own twist to bring about the fall of Adam and Eve. In the New Testament, the same approach is used with Jesus, but it fails as Jesus points to the whole of Scripture...It is also written...

Serpents have unusual tongues...forked tongues...The implications is that a forked tongue speaks a bit from both sides of the spectrum...it uses the truth and adds or subtracts to it in order to obfuscate...

Consider now that Christ is our Rock. HE is the living Rock upon whom we can build our lives and remain free from the onslaught of sin and temptation....

In Islam the Kaaba is the Rock...it is the temple of allah...here many surround it and worship what essentially is an idol.

Yet, the Gospel notes that Christ is the living Rock upon whom we must build our lives and cast our hope....

Muslims note that the Koran is living and eternal , it was not created by allah...yet it is a god just as is allah... and yet it is a book...a living book that is in heaven...

In Christianity the Word of God is Christ.The Word (Christ)came among us and became incarnate...The Word lived among us and established a clear and examplary way for us to follow...Christ the Living Word...eternal, uncreated and in triunity.

In the Koran, sharia is the path, or river that must be taken to receive eternal life...

In Christianity, Jesus is the Way, He is the living water from which those who drink have eternal life...(John 4)

Islam, in the end, tries to offer a sprinkling of Christ, in order to attract Christians to its god, and yet takes away the only means to salvation...the cross of Christ...

Beware of the serpent, Christian...For without the Cross of Christ, there is no Gospel...There is no salvation..
steiner »

Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:40 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

P 2 of 2

When the apostle Paul accepted Jesus, the apostle Paul stopped killing.

Why did Mohammed kill, steal, rape and pillage? and how is mohammed(for muslims) in the light of Jesus, serve a better religious example than Jesus who lived a truly examplary life?

Jesus says: For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgement to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him (John5:22)….

How can mohammed claim to know God, when mohammed obviously did not know or for that matter did not honor Jesus (if muslims claim that he knew Him).

John 8 :39-47 - They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father.- Jesus said to them, - if you were Abrahams children, you would do the works of Abraham…because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him…

And what were the works of Abraham? and the works of Jesus?

Did not Abraham intercede for the lives of the people in Gomorrah and Sodom? And in the case of Jesus, is he not our Intercessor?

Did Jesus kill, or steal or rape, or command that sinners ought to be killed? In fact, to the Pharisees, Jesus made obviously clear that they were religious hypocrites for believing themselves to be without or with less sin than the more honest populace.

So, why choose mohammed? who killed and raped in the name of religion and stood and stands against everything, and I mean everything ...everything Jesus preached....why ?

Why not love Ghenghis Khan, or Hitler,Stalin, Pol Pot(and many others)for that matter…why not?

One reason comes to mind: pride in being able to dominate others…that is sharia, and that was mohammeds way of peace and respect (domination and elimination of your enemies)….
steiner »

Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:39 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

P1 of 2 The New York Times has an article on Wilders.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/22/world/europe/22wilders.html

Wilders is quoted as saying that mohammed should not be respected as a religious figure but branded a war criminal like Hitler….

In the article a fellow by the name of Mohamed Rabbae, (chairman of the Dutch Moroccan Council) is apparently exasperated by Wilders’s stance on mohammed. In short Rabbae points out that mohammed lived in the 6th century…

This statement seems to imply that the murders committed by mohammed. in the 6th century should not be a reflection on mohammed but on the prevalent culture of the time that mohammed lived in.

The New York Times apparently does not feel obliged to question this statement; nevertheless it casts Wilders as the antagonist and the opportunistic politician who is simply exploiting an issue for his political ends.

Yet, the questions remain. Why is mohammed considered a hero today by many of the islamic persuasion?

Let us deepen our perspective regarding mohammed and the relativism that he is allowed to benefit from. Is he really innocent because he did not know better? Is that the reasoning?

Yet, mohammed is paraded around today as knowing Jesus, and many muslims today claim that they respect Jesus better than Christians.

Well then, what makes muslims devote themselves to mohammeds teaching rather than those of Jesus, who by the way lived before mohammed?

In fact, why did mohammed not follow anything that Jesus commanded his disciples to do?
Edabo »

Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:26 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

We all must respect each others religion either Christian or Muslim..but i would say that Jesus will come back on the Last day is it right???where in the Sorah it is written??
steiner »

Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:07 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Dear X86,

sorry about my previous post. It was confusing. Let me try to clarify.

There are 6 questions that I am asking.

1. On what basis can allah forgive your sin?

For example, suppose one is found to be a thief and is sentenced by a judge to go to jail for 10years..If a stranger happens to pass by and feeling sorry for him tells the judge that the thief is pardoned and asks that the thief be released immediately..

2. Would it be ok to release him because the stranger simply said so?

3. Is the Koran allahs word?
4. Is allahs word living?
5. Was it created by allah, or did it always exist eternally?
6. Does allahs word have its own power?
steiner »

Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:48 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

X86,

On what basis can allah forgive your sin?

For example, suppose one is found to be a thief. Suppose that a stranger comes over and says...this man is pardoned...release him.. Would it be ok to release him because the stranger simply said to release him?
Ia the Koran allahs word? Is allahs word living scriot? Was it created by allah, or did it always exist eternally? Is allahs word have its own power?
x86 »

Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:19 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Dear steiner,

Your question: have you committed wrong ever? and how do you know that allah has forgiven you, or not forgiven you?

My answer: Yes, I have committed many wrong. I ask God's forgiveness. It does not necessarily means he have forgiven all of my seen. In the judgement day, He will bring me back to life and I will face judgement. Based on my good or bad works I will be handed a prize (paradise) or punishment (my jail time in hell). God may forgive all my sin, or some of my sin or none of my sin. He is the all mighty. He will do as he please. But Quran tell us that (also see old testiment), God is the most Merciful and the most forgiving. So if we follow His command, he may forgive some of our sin.

Quran teaches us that, everyone is up for judgement in the judgement day. No one will get a free pass. Also, everyone will be judged based on his action and only his action. No one will be punished because of other one's action. No one will be forgiven because of other one's action. Everyone is of their own in the day of judgement. No one else to blame.
x86 »

Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:06 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

steiner,

your question: Tell me, could Allah have contradicted the Koran before it was written ?

I don't understand your question. Where do you see any contradiction?
ShuckCreations »

Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:18 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Well said Prophet! I don't think there could be a better thought out explaination!
Prophet »

Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:19 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

x86,
1: Jesus preached love, grace,purity, sinlessness, holiness, and a relationship with God
2: "Christian" is a title given to those who followed the teachings of Christ. It was first used in Antioch. True, there were no "Christians" in Jesus' times. Jesus clarified the meaning of the Old Testament. To say that He taught what Moses did would almost be misleading. If you actually read the Gospels, you would see that the religious people of the day continually accused Him of breaking Moses' law. Working on the sabbath, not washing hands before dinner, Jesus pardoned the woman caught in adultery (according to the law of Moses she was to be stoned to death), He shot down the Law of capital punishment, and many more. He taught grace and forgiveness.
3:John 8:57-58, the Pharisees are chatting with Jesus...
"Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Notice Jesus said "I am" instead of "I was". Because He was using the title that God gave Moses at the burnng bush.
4: Jesus went to the synagogue (their version of the church). He even taught in their synagogue.
5: Whether you celebrate Christmas and Easter or not had nothing to do with pleasing God. He did not institute those traditiions. I celebrate them of my own free will in honor of Him. To glorify Him. If I choose not to, God will not care any less. He is more concerned with how you glorify Him in your daily life. Many "Christians" devoutly observe those two holidays. But spend the rest of the year living a willfully sinful life. Their twice-a-year "worship" means nothing to Him, because their hearts are turned from Him.
7: Amen.
aritonang »

Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:07 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

here is another question x86,
during tawaf (circling the black stone seven times) if you feel like it, can you take a piss on the black stone? or do you piss on the kaaba afterwards?
how do you take a piss? sideways with one feet held high?
steiner »

Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:26 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Another question x86. have you committed wrong ever? and how do you know that allah has forgiven you, or not forgiven you? and please answer my other questions regarding the Koran..
steiner »

Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:17 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

You havent answered my question x86...? Tell me, could Allah have contradicted the Koran before it was written ?
x86 »

Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:05 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

1. what was Jesus teached mankind?
2. There was nothing called christianity in lifetime of Jesus, he was a jews preaching the same thing as Moses did.
3. How do you know that Jesus claimed that he was the God?
4. How do you know that going to church will please God? Jesus never went to a Church. There was no Church in the lifetime of Jesus.
5. How do you know chelibrating christmas or easter will please God? Did Jesus told that?
6. You just assumed that this will please God? Just like Peganism.
7. Please follow true words of Jesus.
steiner »

Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:53 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

X86 -

Can allah contradict the Koran if he wishes it, or whenever he wishes to?
aritonang »

Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:21 am Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

x86, here is something more interesting:
Allahumma rabba hazihi ad-da'wah at-tammah wa as-salati al-qa;imah, ati Muhammadan al-wasilah wa al-fadhilah wab'athhu maqaman mahmudan allzi wa'adtah (Sahih Bukhari)
MUHAMMAD IS IN HELL
x86 »

Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:16 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Here is another interesting movie: THE GOD who was not there http://www.thegodmovie.com/
I haven't seen it yet. But the argument sounds familiar.

This will make both Christianity and Islam in jeopardy. (Finally we have something in common and a common interest to defend.)
x86 »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:06 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

"SON of God means that Jesus is made of the same material as God"??

So basically you are saying that there is someone else who is God, Jesus is made of the same material as Him. So Jesus is (also a) God?
steiner »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:45 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

X86

The Hindu notion that all their gods are facets of the same one God is relatively new and it still not a unified view of God. It is more like a view of allah taking on different roles. They have changed to this view as they have been given time to reflect on Christianity, and yet they are not being honest....

But let me address another elementary notion that you have as a muslim. This notion has to do with the concept of sonship. You are very confused regarding thiis concept.

Jesus makes Himself known both as son of God and son of man....what is the meaning of this?
Well, the real question is what is the meaning of son.

Let us think for a bit in human terms. If someone says that they are your son...what are they really saying? Are they saying that you are stronger than they are?

One day in your old age, you will hear the same fellow call upon you as dad...does that mean that you are the stronger still?

Not at all. What it means is that there is a recognition that he is made of the genetic material that you are made of. That, hopefully if and when a DNA test is done, it will prove that your genetic material is part of your sons...Your son is made of the same stuff as you are...Your son also is your son because he walks in the steps you have walked in. He loves what you love and holds what you deem precious just as dear...

In short,

SON of man means that in every human way Jesus is human. He is made of the stuff that makes us human.

And

SON of God means that Jesus is made of the same material as God and therefore Jesus is fully God.

Hence, Jesus Son of Man and Son of God....Jesus fully man and fully God...
x86 »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:16 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

If you still believe that Jesus is both "the God and God's son", call him God. STOP calling him God's son. Just STOP it, it make no sense CALLING him the son (even if he is) when he is the God. He is the God, calling him God.

He is also a human, he is also a messenger, he is also a man, he is also someone's friend. Would you call him a man? Messenger? Human? Friend?

What is his most impotent identity? That he is son? Or that he is the God? "God", right?

Then call him God, STOP calling him anything less then that.

I heard people saying, God is so and so that He send his own "son" to earth. That is totally stupid man. He is the God himself, call him that. (even if technically, as you believe, he is also the son).

If someone is a president and a citizen at the same time, we call him president right?

Will it make you uncomfortable to call Jesus the God? (instead of Jesus, son of God?) If it is, then you are half way there. Keep searching, I am sure that God will show you the light and the true path. God is the most powerful. God is the creator of everything. God is one and only. God have no son, God have to idol.
x86 »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:16 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 2

So you believe that "Father and son" is God. Two-in-one.

Your one God is not really one, what you meant is "unity". Of course gods may have unity. They may be a united god front. I am not arguing that. That is your belief. (note that all the greek gods have unity, so are all the Hindu gods)

What I am arguing is that this would be a direct violation of 1st commandment, which say "ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

Look, it does not said "Me and my son". You can believe anything you like and of course every religion is different. But don't claim that you are following 10 commandments.

If you say "God's son" and you you have a cross : you are violating first and second commandment.

what ever "logic" you are giving, Hinduism are giving me same logic.

1. Even if Hinduism have so many gods, my Hindu friend claimed that they are just diffrent forms of same god. hah?

2. Even if they create idols of all the gods, he said, they are actually worshiping god through the idols. (not the idol itself)

From whrere I am standing, no difference what you are saying and what my hindu friend said. He is a pretty good christian to me, and you are a pretty good Hindu. Don't you find it odd? After all the teaching of Abraham, John, Aaron, Moses? All of a sudden, Jesus would come and take us back to Peganism? No way.

Instead, it it is logical to believe that Jesus and Mohammed also teaches us the same ture Monotheism : God is one and only, no son for god, no symbol for god.

May God show you the true path.
ShuckCreations »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:13 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

LOL You're not going to get it so I'll stop tryin got explain. I think you need to stop using the deffinitions provided by this world to explain something that has been before those deffinitions were even thought of. God has always, is always, & will always be. And during that time he can do whatever he wants, whether you understand it or not. Oh and...

Q: "Is Jesus God himself or God's son?"
A: Both
x86 »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:50 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

Why don't you understand, God and God's son are two diffrent entity!

If Jesus is the God, STOP calling him God's son. One can not be his own son. period!
x86 »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:47 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Is Jesus God himself or God's son?
ShuckCreations »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:47 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

x86 look at the scripture I posted. Jesus was God, he is Lord. It does not say He was a god or a lord. Therefore making Him one and the same. He is God's son because he was birthed of a virgin worldly mother making him have no other father but God. Like I said it's not an easy thing to wrap your head around and I don't think anyone can explain it better than we have already.
x86 »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:08 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

"God and His Son, Jesus"?? Seems like TWO gods to me.

What's wrong with accepting Hindu god Shiva or godess Kali, Durga and all the others? Don't you like them?
ShuckCreations »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:12 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Sorry forgot to finish a sentence.

...and once you do it'll all make sense to you.
ShuckCreations »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:09 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I'm gonna chime in here for just a sec. X86, You ask why Jesus said, ""my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" My friend, who is agnostic, asked me this question once and I had no answer for him but God showed me in my study of the Word one night:

Philippians 2:6-11
Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,
he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor
and gave him the name above all other names,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

The trinity isn't supposed to make sense. You cannot take God and put Him in a nice little box like everything else in this world. God, Jesus, & the Holy Spirit is probably one of the most confusing or simple things to understand. Trying to look at it from a worldly view only makes it harder to comprehend. It does take a bit of faith to get and once you do.

Also one more thing, we don't worship a cross. We worship God. Roman Catholics, which their doctrine is debatable itself, would be the closest to that. Christians, however, love God and spread His word. If they use the cross as a symbol so be it, but they in no way worship the cross itself.
Chris_BX_NY »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:27 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Its amazing how far from the truth they really are when it comes to Jesus. Looks and smells like a tit for tat in respone to the movie the Passion for Christ (which was a great movie and well done). Now if someone made a movie about a person whose name begins with the letter M and the marriage of a 8 year old girl they would get mad. I would agree with making that kind of movie but it is the truth. He had many wives and one as young as 8 years old. Lets leave it at that and pray for their salvation.
Al »

Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:20 am Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

The 'god' protrayed in the movie is deceitful and cunning to have done what he did. Fortunately for us Christians we know that God and His Son, Jesus, are nothing like what is portrayed in the movie.
TerryH »

Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:52 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Hey steiner,
Excellent points. Another problem with the muslim religion is a supposedly one man revelation. Jesus fulfilled prophesies in His life that were given by those that God chose to prophesy.If the muslim and Christian religion are supposedly so close, how come there is nothing in the Quran that fulfills the Bible? Thanks for your post.
steiner »

Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:57 am Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

Since we have touched on allah, let us also scrutinize its prophet mohammed...
Today, mohammed is paraded around as knowing Jesus, and many muslims today claim that they respect Jesus better than Christians.

Well then, what makes muslims devote themselves to mohammeds teaching rather than those of Jesus, who by the way lived before mohammed?

In fact, why did mohammed not follow anything that Jesus commanded his disciples to do?

When the apostle Paul accepted Jesus, the apostle Paul stopped killing.

Why did Mohammed kill, steal, rape and pillage? and how is mohammed(for muslims) in the light of Jesus, serve a better religious example than Jesus who lived a truly examplary life?

Jesus says: For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgement to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him (John5:22)….

How can mohammed claim to know God, when mohammed obviously did not know or for that matter did not honor Jesus (if muslims claim that he knew Him).

John 8 :39-47 - They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father.- Jesus said to them, - if you were Abrahams children, you would do the works of Abraham…because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him…

And what were the works of Abraham? and the works of Jesus?

Did not Abraham intercede for the lives of the people in Gomorrah and Sodom? And in the case of Jesus, is he not our Intercessor?

Did Jesus kill, or steal or rape, or command that sinners ought to be killed? In fact, to the Pharisees, Jesus made obviously clear that they were religious hypocrites for believing themselves to be without or with less sin than the more honest populace.

So, why choose mohammed? who killed and raped in the name of religion and stood and stands against everything Jesus preached?

Why love Ghenghis Khan, or why love Hitler,Stalin, Pol Pot(and many others)for that matter…why?

One reason comes to mind: pride in being able to dominate others…that is sharia, and that was mohammeds way of peace (domination and elimination of your enemies)….
aritonang »

Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:07 am Agree: 5 Disagree: 0

CHAG PASCHA SHAMEACH.
Happy Easter everybody.
Prophet »

Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:05 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

steiner,
I love that scripture you quoted from John 8, where Jesus, not so subtly, refers to Himself as the I AM. That must have really ruffled the feathers of the religious people there. But that just proves that He claimed to be God. And the Bible, numerous times, speaks of Jesus as God.
steiner »

Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:48 am Agree: 5 Disagree: 0

Your understanding of oneness is elementary.

Steel is a combination of different metals melded together as one....

A nation is one...and each of its citizens is a national of that nation. Each having (in western culture) equal rights before the law...

Oneness has to do with more than the number one. 1

In fact, our mathematics, our sciences, our arts are motivated by that deeper sense that there is a unity among them...A coming together.

Certainly you would rather drink pure water, rather than dirty water...and yet, as pure as water can be, it is still made of 2 Hydrogens and 1 Oxygen...united by common bonds.

Salt is made of 2 posionous chemicals: chloring and sodium...yet bonded together they are ediblle and serve our daily diet...unity..

You see my dear fellow, our God makes Himself known to us as we look to Him, and study His creation and His Word.

Surely, you have a father and a mother, dont you? You must have been brought up and lived as a family. Have you heard of the unity in a family?

In fact we talk of humanity as a descriptor of ourselves. A man is human; a woman is human, Their coming together is described in scripture as becoming ONE...

why should God not use this same descriptor? The Father is God, The Son is God, and The Holy Spirit is God, and in their great and mysterious union they are God as ONE.

The Hebrews called Jesus a blasphemer for making himself out to be God. Today, Muslims are in fact repeating the same error. They call Christians blasphemers because Christians believe Jesus to be God.

In John 8.54, Jesus speaks to the Hebrews as follows:

- Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.-
The Hebrews respond: - You are not 50 years old, and have You seen Abraham?-

Jesus response - Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.-

Then they took up stones to throw at Him;...

John 9:35 - Jesus asks the man who had been cured of his blindness: - Do you believe in the Son of God?- He answered and said, - Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?...And Jesus said to him, - you have .-both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.

Then he said, - Lord, I believe, and he worshipped HIm.-

Why did Jesus allow this man to worship him if He were not God?
Prophet »

Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:47 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

I would debate x86 on the fact that Jesus is God, but that would require him to have some knowledge of the Bible, which he doesn't.
Sufficeth to say, Jesus is God incarnate, and not just another prophet. If x wants to debate that, then let him read the New Testament first. Then we can discuss it.
aritonang »

Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:37 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

For Christians, Muslims are funny people. They said Muhammad is their prophet and is a perfect human being. But why oh why does every Muslim after their prayer (salat) always plead to their God Allah to give Muhammad the murdering paedophile the high place in his grave, a position that was promised to Muhammad during his lifetime.

Please check out this verse from Sahih Bukhari, and I guarantee you the translation is perfect

Allahumma rabba hazihi ad-da'wah at-tammah wa as-salati al-qa;imah, ati Muhammadan al-wasilah wa al-fadhilah wab'athhu maqaman mahmudan allzi wa'adtah (Sahih Bukhari)

Why would anybody want to convert to Islamism when Muhammad himself cannot get to this good position in his grave? Certainly very funny.

Muhammad himself is just another dead people and is going to answer to God about his actions
x86 »

Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:51 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 3

From where I am looking at, Abraham, Moses & Mohamed said about worshiping God, not idol or anything else. They all have said same things. In fact, Judaism & Islam have exactly same theological understanding of God. They have many other things common in practicing religion.

But Christianity, especially trinity, does not fit in. Cross is a symbol, is an idol for god! They worship Jesus instead of God.

On the other hand, Jesus is the most praised prophet/messenger of God according to Quran (Islam's holly book). Quran talked about Jesus in 100 verses. Quran made believing Jesus and gospel (book that God reveal to jesus) a precondition of being a Muslim. (i.e. you are not a Muslim if you disbelieve Jesus or Gospel).

Only explanation is that, Jesus NEVER claimed himself to be a God or divine. Instead he teaches the same message form God what Abraham, Noah, Solomon, John the Baptist, ..... Moses, and Mohammed had teaches. Worship God, not anyone/anything else. Somehow down the road, the people lost the teaching of Jesus, and start to worship him instead.
debs6196 »

Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:39 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Just goes to show why Islam can only survive in areas where there is no freedom of speech and the press. Those clips on utube are so bogus. I know many people are fed this rubbish in Arab countries and I suppose if you don't have access to real historical documents and scholarly information, what else do you know? I mean the fact that most Arabs still believe Israel was formed in 1948....and that they have no right to the land.....? Well who did the Roman Empire rule and who's temple did they burn down in 70 A.D.? Who were the slaves in Egypt, desperately trying to get back to their homeland? Even the pharoahs (non Jew/non Christian) history tell these stories...? I don't know how to even have a discussion with people who blatantly ignore the facts.

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