LUXEMBOURG (AP) - EU nations that recognize same-sex unions as legal marriages must grant surviving partners the same pension rights as given to those in traditional marriages, the EU Court of Justice ruled Tuesday.
The Luxembourg-based court ruling was seen as a victory for a German man who was denied his partner's retirement plan payments after his partner died in 2005.
The EU court said pension plan had discriminated against the man on the grounds of sexual orientation because the men's relationship had been recognized under German law as a legally registered life partnership equivalent to a traditional marriage.
The court did not say, however, that all 27 EU nations must recognize same-sex unions, only that if they did they must grant life partners the same benefits.
Today, 10 EU nations do not recognize same-sex partnerships at all: Bulgaria, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Ireland, according to the European branch of the International Lesbian and Gay Association. France and Italy grant them very limited rights, the group said.
But elsewhere in the EU — notably in the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden — life partnerships have acquired considerable social rights in the last 20 years.
Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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Teen4Christ,
"To deny that you were speaking directly to me does not synch up with your words."
Teen, I was speaking directly to you, but I was referring to your ideas, not you. I never said, "You are ridiculous" I don't think you are, and I never did. I think you are taking this too far, and avoiding the issue. But I am sorry that I offended you, I did not mean to give that impression.
You quoted me as saying that "only an ignorant person would make such an assumption" I did not call the other person ignorant, I said that one who made such an assumption would be ignorant. This is not name calling, it is stating a fact, granted it was a bit blunt. The person would be ignorant of certain established facts and historical arguments. It is the same thing as saying, "A person who makes this assumption would not understand all of the facts" This is what the word ignorant means. Granted in today's society ignorant is a name you call some one or some thing like this, but it is clear I did not call the person such. Also, please look at the context of things. You are trying to force this Teen, and it is getting more obvious.
"Calling me and others demeaning names is just one kind of intimidation. Even though you deny calling me and other people belittling names, your own words prove that you do! "
WHAT WORDS? You quoted a thread out of context, where I called (guess what?) an IDEA crazy, and said that a person who assumed a certain well established fact would be "ignorant". This does not prove your point, you are just saying that my words prove me wrong, but you havent shown it! I didn't call you a name, I didn't even call your Pastor a name. You are driving this into the ground, and it is non-existent.
"You have also tried to tell me I have no right to follow God’s Word in 1 John 4:1-3 and II John 1:7. You have tried to silence me when stating my doubts about someone who claims to be a Christian, yet refuses to say that “Jesus Christ has come in flesh.”"
WHERE? WHen did I try to silence you? Teen, I have no problem with your testing a persons faith, I do have a problem with what you originally said, are you going to deal with the issue, or are you going to keep slandering me needlessly? You are avoiding the issue and trying to make me look bad. I have sufficiently defended myself, and anyone who reads this post can see it. Now, can we deal with the issue? (I do apologize to you, or any others that took my words the wrong way, also, I will try to use "softer" words in the future)
Chris333
On Monday, April 07, 2008 9:56 pm, YOU wrote:
“Teen4Christ, This is RIDICULOUS and must come to an end.”
“Stop this MADNESS, this is REALLY REALLY WRONG.”
“I am being HARSH with you here, BECAUSE YOU NEED IT”.
To deny that you were speaking directly to me does not synch up with your words.
On Monday, February 18, 2008 6:55 am, YOU wrote to someone in another thread who was pointing out errors in the different ancient manuscripts of the Greek New Testament: “The mythical thinking that the Bible is somehow untrustworthy is CRAZY and only an IGNORANT person would make such an accusation.”
A bully is “the act of intimidating a person perceived to be weak to make them do something.”
Calling me and others demeaning names is just one kind of intimidation. Even though you deny calling me and other people belittling names, your own words prove that you do!
You have also tried to tell me I have no right to follow God’s Word in 1 John 4:1-3 and II John 1:7. You have tried to silence me when stating my doubts about someone who claims to be a Christian, yet refuses to say that “Jesus Christ has come in flesh.”
Teen4Christ,
The only thing I said that you might construe as being directed at a person, was when I said, "I am amazed at your pastor"
But if you look at the rest of my post, it is clear that I am not amazed at your pastor, but what your pastor is saying. When I say, "This is ridiculous" I am not saying, "You are ridiculous" , the word, "this" pertains to the idea, not you. "This is madness" also refers to the idea, not to you, I do not believe you or your pastor are "mad". "Really really wrong" refers to the idea, but I meant it as refering to you and your pastors calling Star the anti-christ (which is part of your idea). You have accused me of calling names, which is not true, and yet you have called me 1) a bully, 2) insecure, 3) a name caller. All three not deserved. You have called Star the anti-christ. Wow, I guess your goal is to build us up?
I can separate ideas from people, it would be helpful if you could do the same.
Teen4Christ (Part 1),
You said, "Even though you want me to stop posting and others try to delete what I post, I’m definitely not keeping my faith “hidden under a bushel basket.”"
This is not true! I never said I wanted you to stop posting. Honesty is also a Christian virtue you know? And slandering someone is a sin.
"Did I violate one word of Scripture by following 1 John 4:1-3 and II John 1:7?
No!
Does Scripture in 1 John 4:1-3 and II John 1:7 give me permission to test a spirit?
Yes!"
Did I violate either? NO. Does it matter, NO. Teen4Christ, please understand, I am not against you, I am happy you put your view forward. Now, I am challenging your views, in an attempt to help you grow in your faith. Please deal with what I say, and do not attribute things to me that I do not say. It is just wrong.
"Does Scripture actually command believers to “test the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world”? (I John 4:1).
Yes!"
Nobody disagrees with you, we are debating how, how to test spirits. That is the issue. Even demons can quote Scripture, and even demons believe in Jesus. Let's talk about the real way to distinguish OK?
"What gives you the authority to rebuke me for following the Scripture?
None!"
Again, Satan quoted scripture, and Jesus rebuked him. Imagine if Satan said, "What gives you the right to rebuke me for quoting Scripture?" Anyone can quote Scripture, we are discussing the right interpretation, can we do that?
"You call other people “ignorant,” “stupid,” the list could go on."
Whaaaaat? Please quote one time where I called another person (not their idea) stupid or ignorant! You are slandering me without a shred of evidence. Can you please hold yourself to a higher standard?
"Whenever you run out of logical arguments you seem to end up calling people demeaning names and say you’re doing it in Christ’s love. "
Teen 4 Christ (Part 2)
Again, I have never resorted to such name calling. You need to show me where I actually said it. I usually follow this pattern, "I am shocked at (such and such an idea), this is ridiculous. How can we say such a thing when (then I give an argument), please explain (your idea)!" Yes, I use harsh words sometimes, yes people deserve it sometimes, Paul used harsh words often! Are you going to tell Paul what you have told me? On the other hand, you did not deal with a single point I raised, you just called me names (just like you accuse me of doing). Will you please deal with what I said!? You make me look like a bully who doesn't listen. And for what! Because I challenged your interpretation! Amazing!
" understand that your intention is not to build up someone like me, who is young in years as well as in the faith. Your words are plain and “harsh,” as you, yourself said, with the intention to pummel someone into submitting to the truth as you define it."
Teen, please, I am not trying to offend you, and I am bad at small talk. I raised valid points in what I said, and you, and your pastor, need to deal with them. I never once attacked you, I attacked the ideas. If someone comes up to you and says, "I believe gay people should burn at a stake" Will you say, "Now listen, we need to be nice and not say things like this, of course you are free to express your views and say whatever you like"? NO, you are going to say, "Listen man, that is wrong and that is evil, you need to change your ideas" Now look at those words, we would say "wrong" and "evil", but notice, we are not calling the person evil, we are calling his ideas evil. And rightly so! Now he could counter and give an argument, or he could say, "HOW DARE YOU CALL ME EVIL, YOU ARE A HATEFUL PERSON!" But this statement is not true.
"The counselor at school says that people who use words to put others down are really insecure, and feel out of control. Calling other people names gives them the feeling of being superior and in control."
Did your counselor tell you about lying?
"Hopefully, you can see why I said, “I am not afraid of you. Actually, I feel sorry for you.” "
I'm sorry, I am just not seeing it Teen. I have seen you throw a lot of mud, I have not seen you deal with a single issue, and I am really confused at your feelings. I have been called a lot of names on this blog, "Fairy believer" "magic believer" "stupid" "anti-science" "hateful" etc etc. I don't let it get to me, I never called you one name, I never called your pastor one name, or your father. You have called me a lot. We need to deal with issues ok? And I am sorry if you somehow had the impression that I thought you were anything that you attributed to me. I did not intend it at all.
Teen4Christ
This is what you said: just finished a phone call with my pastor and also showed my mom and dad your 4:23 pm and 4:08 pm post. My pastor got online, saw the question I asked you, “Would you please say, ‘Jesus the Anointed has come in flesh.’?”
Your response was, “Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, born of a virgin, who lived a sinless life, and died for my sins and rose from the dead, who ascended to Heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and makes intercession for me is my Lord and Savior. Is He yours?”
My pastor asked me to look up two Scriptures:
1 John 4:3 says, “And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”
2 John 1:7 says, “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”
He said that your spirit is not of God. Instead, it is “a deceiver and antichrist” because - even given two opportunities - you would not, state that, “Jesus the Anointed has come in flesh.”
He said that even if you posted later and said, “Jesus the Anointed has come in flesh.” Not to trust what you say or have any more communication with you because the spirit of antichrist is a liar.
Your Pastor is out of line to accuse me of being the antichrist and a liar. If he can't see that I confessed that Jesus Christ came in the flesh by my statement then he lacks what is needed to instruct any one in spiritual matters.
Your pastor knows nothing about me and does not know what I believe. To say that I believe that Jesus' virgin birth was aparitional is absurd.
I have been living for God since Jan 1977. I have served God as a missionary for the past 20 or more years. I do not appreciate a man accusing me of being the antichrist and a liar, and doing it through a young kid, all because he had no answer to my question, "Where does it say in the Bible that God approves of homosexuality?"
Chris333 and GMG were responding to your Pastor's foolish statement that I didn't meet the criteria that I believed that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
Your Pastor is wrong regarding homosexuality and he is wrong about my faith in God. There is no scriptural basis for your Pastor's belief. It is the sound bites of the world.
I gave you a thumbs down because of your attitude towards Chris333 and I flagged you because of your attitude towards me. Your pride and arrogance stinks. I only flagged two of your three posts. If you had looked in the morning at the postings before you went whining to your dad you would have seen that. If you are going to post on CP then grow up.
Chris333
Even though I’m a kid, I claim the promise that the Lord has not given me “the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind” (2 Timothy 1:7). Even though you want me to stop posting and others try to delete what I post, I’m definitely not keeping my faith “hidden under a bushel basket.”
I am so blessed to have parents, pastors, brothers and sisters at Church, friends and neighbors that I can have discussions with about the Lord and faith issues.
Did I violate one word of Scripture by following 1 John 4:1-3 and II John 1:7?
No!
Does Scripture in 1 John 4:1-3 and II John 1:7 give me permission to test a spirit?
Yes!
Does Scripture actually command believers to “test the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world”? (I John 4:1).
Yes!
What gives you the authority to rebuke me for following the Scripture?
None!
You can rebuke me all you want by calling what I have to say: “ridiculous,” “really, really wrong,” and “madness.” I’ve seen similar words of yours in different places on this site. You call other people “ignorant,” “stupid,” the list could go on. Really! Your words follow a definite pattern. Whenever you run out of logical arguments you seem to end up calling people demeaning names and say you’re doing it in Christ’s love.
I understand that your intention is not to build up someone like me, who is young in years as well as in the faith. Your words are plain and “harsh,” as you, yourself said, with the intention to pummel someone into submitting to the truth as you define it.
The counselor at school says that people who use words to put others down are really insecure, and feel out of control. Calling other people names gives them the feeling of being superior and in control.
Hopefully, you can see why I said, “I am not afraid of you. Actually, I feel sorry for you.”
Teen4Christ,
I still would like an explanation of why you feel sorry for me? If you are going to tell a guy that you feel sorry for him, then please explain what you feel sorry about. Otherwise, it gives the impression that you just look down on the guy, for no good reason at all.
Lev 18:22 - "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination."
Lev 20:13 - "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have commiteed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.:
Ezekiel 16:49-50
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idelness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminnate, nor abuser of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Jude 7 - "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
God's Word is quite clear that gay sex is an abomination to God and all those who practice it will perish. No where in scripture will you find God saying otherwise. Those who think He has have not rightly divided the Word of Truth.
God will bring to nought any nation who embraces homosexuality.
Ge 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
God brought a woman unto the man, not a man unto the man. May those who are bound in the abomination of same-gender relationships see the truth, and turn from its deadly embrace.
Teen4Christ
I am the one who flagged you. I gave you a 'thumbs down' for your attitude towards Chris333 and I flagged you because of your attitude towards me.
I am glad that you have a family where you can bring the concerns of your life to them. Many teenagers don't have that. I know that you love and appreciate your family.
God loves you. Look to Jesus for the answers.
God made them male and female. Man’s helpmate was not made from the same direct substance as he was. That which was taken from man (woman) is the only one who can properly become one flesh with him (husband & wife). The wife assumes the role of protecting from within (rib), while the man protects from without.
Two males are contrary to becoming one flesh according to God’s plan. Neither one was taken from the other. Neither one has the true ability to function as a rib (spiritually speaking). Therefore, becoming the one flesh that God intended is impossible for two males. Such a relationship is earthly, sensual, and devilish.
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good (1 Thessalonians 5:21).
What is good? God saw that it was good for man to have a helpmate and that that helpmate should be a woman. Let us hold fast to that which is good concerning helpmate relationships, male and female.
I just wanted to thank my dad and christianpost.com. for allowing my voice to be heard.
When my family was talking over breakfast this morning, I explained that my original posting from Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:46 pm was “flagged.” My dad phoned their offices and discussed what had happened.
He was told that all messages are logged in their database and was assured that if nothing I said violated their user policy, they would repost the original message.
They reposted the original message, which was not very different from the one I tried to rewrite from memory!
Dad, you’re my best friend on earth - thanks! To the people at christianpost.com, “Thank you, too!”
Also, is that what you originally posted? Who and why would anyone want to flag it??? Are you sure that is what you originally wrote? I cannot understand why anyone would flag it.
Teen 4 Christ,
Why would you be afraid of me? I have not threatend you in anyway? I am somewhat confused here. And why do you feel sorry for me? Please explain your feelings. I am not against you Teen, I too want understanding, and I want you to understand that not everything someone says (even your pastor) is true or good. Just be careful.
My harshness was for your benefit, not to scare you. I want you to challenge what you have been told, and what I am telling you. Keep strong in your faith in Christ, and try to rightly understand that faith.
God Bless
Chris
Though my original post was “flagged,” I am re-posting it because there was nothing inappropriate about it:
Those of you have been praying for me since the last time I posted, I wanted to say “Thank you! We took our calculus exam Wednesday morning. It was brutal. Our teacher said he would have our grades posted after 5 PM. After baseball practice, I went back to see the results. Praise the Lord, I aced it!
It just goes to show how hard work and prayer pay off.
I am reminded of two verses:
2 Timothy 2:15 “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 1:7 “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
(BTW: Chris333 – I am not afraid of you. Actually, I feel sorry for you.)
Though my original post was “flagged,” I am re-posting it because there was nothing inappropriate about it:
Those of you have been praying for me since the last time I posted, I wanted to say “Thank you! We took our calculus exam Wednesday morning. It was brutal. Our teacher said he would have our grades posted after 5 PM. After baseball practice, I went back to see the results. Praise the Lord, I aced it!
It just goes to show how hard work and prayer pay off.
I am reminded of two verses:
2 Timothy 2:15 “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 1:7 “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
(BTW: Chris333 – I am not afraid of you. Actually, I feel sorry for you.)
Those of you who have been praying for me over the past few days since my last post, “Thank you!” - I took my calculus exam today. It was brutal! Our teacher promised us he’d post our grades before five o’clock. I went after baseball practice to check it out…I aced it! Praise the Lord!
I thought of two verses:
2 Timothy 2:15 “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
2 Timothy 1:7 “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
Hard work and prayer does pay off – but more importantly, it glorifies our heavenly Father!
May Christ’s awesome peace be with you!
(BTW, Chris333. Your words don’t make me afraid of you at all. I just really feel sorry for you.)
Man does have an inherent predisposition.
... a predisposition to SIN,
..sin in all it's various forms.
Regarding homosexuality being genetic...
This can be studied by looking at identical twins. Identical twins by definition have the same DNA. Yet, it will be found that while one of the twins may be a homosexual the other is not necessarily one also.
Regarding homosexuality being a result of a biochemical/brain disfunction -
This is probably it. Drug addictions are able to affect the way the brain functions at the basic level.
Yet this isnt limited to drugs, but it applies to anything that we become sensitized to, dependent and attached to for a long period of time...
In a sense, this creates a path which our brain cannot do without. A path, much like a railway track to a train, or a road to a car...where our brain has an extremely difficult time leaving it once it is built.
How else then shall we explain bisexuality, or paedophilia, or numerous other behaviours?
The mind has been trained through repetitive and continued use of that path to the point where it cannot do anything else but travel on that road.
How else can we explain drive? the drive of a millionaire to become a billionaire, unable to stop...but to keep on piling up more and more.
Or the collector of rubbish who keeps on collecting more and more rubbish till the house and the yard and everything owned is totally filled with it, but wont stop bringing more in..
Or with anorexics...can we show that it is genetic? again, using the idea of identical twins, you will find that just because one is anorexic, the other does not necessarily follow...
And with anorexics there is a particularity that should be noted. We see that although they are in every respect truly thin...they completely see themselves as fat...undermining every reality that is flung their way..
Homosexuals act similarly. Although their sexual parts are there and they can bear children on their own without any problems...they have gotten themselves in a predicament where they will not admit to their gender, or their ability to have children....
like the anorexics they are under a complete illusion as to the reality of things....
Quecat
Thanks.
Teen4Christ
Your Pastor does not know anything about me. He does not know what I believe. What GMG wrote to you is quite accurate.
I'm wondering why Gadfly seems to be so fascinated with insisting that posters to this board identify their gender. This isn't a dating site.
Act 18:24 "And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."
According to Gadfly - Priscilla was out of line to have had any part in "expounding unto Apollos the way of God" However it's plain that scripture does not support that view.
Star - you go girl ! - don't let the deceiver rob you of your joy or the task that the Lord has set before you.
Maranatha!
Teen4Christ
Part 2
Now, as to your formula, and comparing it to what star2 said:
- Being able to say the name of “Jesus,” our Lord.
- Being able to say Jesus is the “Christ” or “Anointed,” or “Messiah” – who was sent by God, the Father, to be the redeemer
- Being able to say that Jesus “did come” to the world
- Being able to say that Jesus actually came “in flesh” – that he was a flesh and blood person
>>>Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, born of a virgin, who lived a sinless life, and died for my sins and rose from the dead, who ascended to Heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and makes intercession for me is my Lord and Savior. Is He yours?<<<
Looks to me like all your points are covered. Note that you cannot be "born", "live", "die", "rise from the dead", and "ascend" unless you first came as a flesh and blood person (your points #3 and #4). But Teen, you can believe this and still not be living for Christ. It takes time and discernment to begin to get a feeling for a person’s “heart”.
As to your listed quote of ">>>>star2 posted feetxxxl at 2:45 pm on 4/5/08 and said, “Re:testing thru personal witness thru the fellowship of christ. You have no fellowship of Christ.”<<<<". Star2 was quoting feetxxxl's words; he uses the phrase "testing thru personal witness thru the fellowship of christ" a lot. We don't know what it means either. But all of feetxxxl’s posts use this type of esoteric verbage to justify his point of view, and he doesn’t appear to believe that our Lord laid down any absolutes for His children. It would seem that star2 was responding to this.
Hope you enjoyed your father/son breakfast.
Teen4Christ
Part 1
It is true that we must always test for truth through the Lord's word, and through His word He provides us with knowledge of His will and purpose for us, His creation. And He also provides for us a deeper understanding as we continuously "diligently seek", and grow from the status of milk-drinking babies to meat-eating adults. This process takes our whole lives, and even at the end we still "see through the glass darkly", because it is impossible for us to fully know the mind and purposes of God. "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways' says the Lord. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts'" Isaiah 55:8-9. This tells us that, through faith, we are to be obedient to His will for us.
It appears that you are trying to seek the Lord's ways, and as a Christian I commend you, as He is the way, the truth and the life, and we have nothing and are nothing without Him. And though He has provided us with His truth in the form of the Bible, it is a comprehensive truth. Sort of like answering a number of different questions in order to put forth the whole concept. And because of this, we must be very careful in putting forth formulas to arrive at Truth as given to us biblically. Though this kind of thing can be useful as a springboard, so to speak, trying to pin down Truth through a formula by necessity often leaves out details which are part of the whole, and that are necessary to arrive at the Truth.
I assume your pastor is trying to help you learn to recognize a true follower of Christ, by determining a genuine personal knowledge of Christ as Divine Savior. But this can be tricky. Consider the following:
Mark 1:23-25 Now there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, saying, "Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are-the Holy One of God!" But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet, and come out of him!"
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble!
Mark 13:22 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (or chosen ones).
There are a number of other verses that show the knowledge and acknowledgement of satan and his demons towards Christ and His divinity, and that show their power to deceive God's people. Satan is in the business of deception, and he is so very good at it. And I have no doubt that satan is particularly fond of formulas, as they so often demand strict adherence to uncompromising legalism. (In this case, read this as "magic words")
gadfly
I am female and a born-again Christian.
I follow the teachings of scriptures.
I do not wear men clothes nor any thing pertaining to a man.
When I attend Church I dress modestly. I wear a loose skirt that goes to mid-calf and a top that completes covers me. I don't wear make up because I don't like it. The only jewerly I wear is a watch. My hair is short but it is an appropriate length for a female.
I do not approve of women pastoring Churches. I do not believe that they are called by God to do so. I would never attend a Church that had a female Pastor.
I am silent in the Church unless God moves on me to speak. When He does it is usually to share a testimony of what He has done in my life or to request prayer for either my needs or the needs of those I know.
I submit to authority. One church that I attended the Pastor asked the congregation to memorize scriptures in 48 different areas. I was the only one who memorized them. He asked me to quote them to the Church body. He called me up to platform. When I got to the base of the platform I stopped and waited for him to invite me up on the stage because I felt it was not my place to stand on the stage without his permission.
I don't teach in the Church, though, I did assist in Children's Church because that was what God wanted me to do. Later, my Pastor's wife asked me to teach Children's Church. I did that for about a total of about 2 yrs.
Even though teaching is my spiritual gift, I have no interest in teaching men. I like ladies classes.
I serve God in word and deed not only in the Church but also on the street, at work, or anywhere I may be.
I post on CP because that is what God said He wanted me to do.
I think David knew about this generation and the dark hour upon us.
Psalm 12
Help, LORD, for the godly are no more;
the faithful have vanished from among men.
Everyone lies to his neighbor;
their flattering lips speak with deception.
May the LORD cut off all flattering lips
and every boastful tongue
that says, "We will triumph with our tongues;
we own our lips [b] —who is our master?"
"Because of the oppression of the weak
and the groaning of the needy,
I will now arise," says the LORD.
"I will protect them from those who malign them."
And the words of the LORD are flawless,
like silver refined in a furnace of clay,
purified seven times.
O LORD, you will keep us safe
and protect us from such people forever.
The wicked freely strut about
when what is vile is honored among men.
We live in a time when the ungodly demand a place in the church. Yet the church is more than a fellowship or building. The church is the body of Christ. The true Body will not be defiled nor stained. The folly of sin swept men who strut and mock for placement. The wrath of God they will not escape.
By the way gadfly, Paul appointed Priscilla as Deacon. And from the context we can see that Priscilla and Aquila were approved of by Paul and the other Apostles, indeed we find no condemnation of this teaching of another. Strange, very strange, we would expect Paul to rebuke them, but later in his letter to the Romans, he reaffirms how great Priscilla is. This is irreconciable with your assertion that women can never teach over men.
Your attack against me for supporting Star is unfounded and anti-biblical.
Prove your point Gadfy.
Acts 18: 26
26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.
Chris-
You make an assertion, you do not support it with Scripture. You did not make your point.
GMG
Are you a woman?
Well then Gadfy,
You have some problems with Paul as well, because he also supported women who were clearing holding some kind of teaching over men. I guess Paul is ungodly, and working with Satan too right? Think about what you say, I don't have much tolerance for people who do not think.
gadfly,
>>>>The Scripture never requires women to be silent in home Bible study. See I Corinthians 14: 34 & 35. “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”<<<<
I associate most closely with Southern Baptist, who also do not believe in women pastors, and I am an agreement with this.
But this format is not church. It is strictly a discussion format. It is, hopefully, a discussion of what the bible says on any particular subject, more akin to a type of "bible study" than "church".
Congratulations on 10 terrific years. We have just celebrated our 11th terrific year. And pray God for another 11, at least!.
And what I am is a child of the Lord. Praise be His Name, Amen!
GMG
Yes, my wife and I will have been married for 10 terrific years on June 3rd. She and I are members of a community of Plymouth Brethren. Our Assembly strives to follow ecclesiastical principles set forth in the New Testament. Women cover their heads before they come into any believers’ gathering – mixed company or not. Women do not preach or teach. Men lead the worship and teach from the pulpit. And, yes, the women are silent. We follow Scripture.
The Scripture never requires women to be silent in home Bible study. See I Corinthians 14: 34 & 35. “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
If you have a problem with following Scripture, your problem is not with me, but the very Author of Scripture.
GMG
Are you a woman?
gadfly,
My response was not meant to be a "cheap shot". It is reasoned, and it is valid. The fact that you do not agree with it does not invalidate it. And you didn't answer my question. Should women at a home bible study, which call for discussion, be silent in the presence of males?
GMG
Going for the cheapest shot because you can neither legitimately account for your behavior or give a reasoned response to justifiy it. How predictable...
gadfly
Whoa there cowboy (I can call you that, since you've said you're male, right?).
But, gadfly does sound feminine. So does star. So what's your point?
You sound like a legalistic pharisee. This is not a church, this is communication board. And perhaps you have read the Bible and know that God has used many women in various capacities to further His purposes. Or are you of the opinion that women should sit quietly, with head covered and bowed, drinking in the wisdom of men (like feetxxxl, perhaps?).
What or who star is, or you are, or any of us are, for that matter, has nothing much to do with God's work of growing and enlightening His people. He uses many formats. Take what is offerred for what it's worth, and ask Him for discernment relative to the subjects under discussion. This IS what is happening here, discussion.
PS. Are you married? Does your wife sit silently during in-home bible studies, or would you expect this from her if you WERE married?
GMG: You referred to star2 as “she” three times in your post (Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:06 pm). You also defended her.
Chris333: In your post (Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:51 am) you referred to star2 twice as “she” and “her” once in your post. You also defended her.
Apparently, you have shared histories. Postings submitted by star2 after each of yours would have certainly challenged and corrected you, if you were incorrect. She did not. Obviously, star2 is a “woman.”
God, in Holy Scripture (I Timothy 2:11-12), commands: “11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I permit not a woman to teach (didaskein), nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”
Thayers’s Biblical Lexicon defines teaching (didaskein) as holding “discourse with others in order to instruct them;” “instill[ing] doctrine” or “explain[ing] or expound[ing] a thing” within a theological context.
Communications made by star2, or any woman, which attempt to instruct in Biblical matters are BOLD violations of Scripture and therefore stand in direct defiance of God.
star2…your refusal to follow Scripture’s command for a woman not “to teach,” Biblical doctrine but “to be in silence” is rebellion against God and His Word.
GMG and Chris333, your support of any woman who teaches the doctrine of God and refuses to be silent is also a violation of Scripture; you, also, stand in defiance of God and His Word!
I am a man, blessed be God! By God’s unmerited grace and through the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, I have been saved. Praise the Savior!
Teen4Christ,
What? This is ridiculous and must come to an end. If John Doe says, "I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the anointed, came in the flesh to this world. And I believe that eating babies alive, whlie jumping on your foot is the only way to go to heave." Would you say, "OH HE HAS PASSED THE FOUR PONT TEST, nope no spirit of the devil is in him, he is a bonefied Christian. We should believe everything this guy has said, because he said the four point truth."
Stop this madness, this is really really wrong. Does your pastor ask new members, "Can you say the four point truth?" Before they become Christians? Does he make this a litmus test for everything?! If not then, this "FOUR POINT TEST" does not serve its point.
I am being harsh with you here, because you need it, and your pastor does too. I could say, "Jesus Christ has come in the Flesh (Jesus, Anointed, Came to Earth, In the Flesh) and say, "Homosexuality is wrong" or "Homosexuality is right". Indeed I do say the former. What does this prove!??! Absolutely nothing!
Here is what was actually being said in the Bible, that none would be able to confess these truths in their actual lives. Thus it is not some ridiculous magical statement, it is a sincere belief held in the heart. Joe can say it, and not mean it, and Sue can mean it, but not say it. Joe is wrong, Sue is right. Star believes it, I believe it, probably feet believes it, you believe it. But which of us is following it. If we follow, then we will follow the truth of God's Word, and we will obey His commands, and repent when we fail. We should always "test the spirits" however not by some four point formula, but rather by the truthfulness of what they say and do.
I am amazed at your pastor.
GMG
If you read my words carefully, even as early as April 2, I say “Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.” My words absolutely meet all four requirements of 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7 Praise God!
Sorry – Gotta dash. I’m studying for a calculus exam on Wednesday. Also, my dad and I are going to a Fellowship of Christian Athletes father-son banquet at 6 o’clock tomorrow morning.
May Christ’s Peace be with you!
GMG
star2 posted feetxxxl at 2:45 pm on 4/5/08 and said, “Re:testing thru personal witness thru the fellowship of christ. You have no fellowship of Christ.”
I asked my dad what this “testing thru personal witness thru the fellowship of christ” was about. He said he wasn’t familiar with such a phrase in Scripture.
He said only God knows whether a person is or isn’t saved. So, star2 had no Scriptural authority to say that about feetxxxl.
My dad said that in the New Testament, a spirit could be tested
He had me call our pastor, who had me read…
1 John 4:1-3. “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7. “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”
According to Scripture, a spirit is antichrist and a deceiver if it doesn’t pass this four-part test:
- Being able to say the name of “Jesus,” our Lord.
- Being able to say Jesus is the “Christ” or “Anointed,” or “Messiah” – who was sent by God, the Father, to be the redeemer
- Being able to say that Jesus “did come” to the world
- Being able to say that Jesus actually came “in flesh” – that he was a flesh and blood person
To pass the test, a godly spirit will be able to actually declare ALL four parts, when asked.
Our pastor explained that star2 passed only the first two parts of the “test of spirits” but never passed the second two parts and say that Jesus, the “Anointed” (or “Messiah,” or “Christ”…they are all the same word in New Testament Greek, he says) “has come” into the world and that His coming was “in flesh.”
I said to our pastor, “I asked star2 if ‘Jesus the Anointed had come in flesh.’ star2 said ‘Yes.’ Isn’t that enough?”
Our pastor said, “Scripture is clear. Saying ‘Yes’ is not certainly not the same thing as saying that “Jesus the Anointed has come in flesh.”
I then asked our pastor, “But, didn’t star2 say that ‘Jesus was born of a virgin?”
Our pastor explained that ancient heretics, called “docetists,” actually claimed that “Jesus was ‘born’” (just like star2 claimed) but that it was an apparitional birth – not an actual flesh-and-blood birth. star2 did not say Jesus Christ has come “in flesh.”
Our pastor said, “The spirit posting under star2 clearly did not pass the ‘test of spirits.’
A spirit that cannot say ALL four truths in 1 John 4:2-3 or 2 John 1:7 is antichrist and a deceiver - according to Scripture.”
when dealing with sexual immorality among the corinthians he said one of you is commiting something that is not so much as named among the gentiles...1 Cor. 5:1-5
"porneia" the greek word that "fornication" was translated for, the greek meaning is sexual immorality....
to what then could you possibly apply the label immoral?
thess 5a;21 test everything . keep the good . what is your test for paul's meaning of" porneia".
paul's concession ( it is not a command) is that to avoid sexual morality one should marry. paul was writing to gentiles. in gentile society there was no restriction on sexual expression... that is just an outright lie
feet
>>>>there is no specificity as to what is sexual immorality, except thru a spirit test. obviously sexual activity that violates vows and sexual acts the debase and degrade another human being are sins.<<<<
So then, I take it that this would include relationships of consent of about any nature, such as in more than 2 people, or brother and sister, or even an adult male and adolescent male. Is this a correct understanding of the above?
>>>>where is the degradation in premarital intimacy that affirms devotion, commitment, respect and trust.<<<<
Where in the bible do you get confirmation of devotion, committment, respect, and trust as necessary precursors to an intimate relationship?
star2
Are you a woman?
"porneia" the greek word that "fornication" was translated for, the greek meaning is sexual immorality.
the word fornication is not used in many translations. it is not used in the niv translation
there is no specificity as to what is sexual immorality, except thru a spirit test. obviously sexual activity that violates vows and sexual acts the debase and degrade another human being are sins.
where is the degradation in premarital intimacy that affirms devotion, commitment, respect and trust.
like i said show me a scripture that sin is to be determine thru tradition. the truth is that scripture expresses a less that positive attitude toward tradition.
1 thess 5a;21 test everything . keep the good . what is your test for paul's meaning of" porneia".
paul's concession ( it is not a command) is that to avoid sexual morality one should marry. paul was writing to gentiles. in gentile society there was no restriction on sexual expression.
surely the 50 percent divorce rate is an indication that to marry to avoid an interpreted sin of premarital sex is not working.
how is it that premarital sex that that affirms the things that lead to marriage of itself is a sin. scripture does not say so. there is no scripture that says all sex outside of marriage is a sin. that is your interpretation. but it doesnt stand up to any kind of testing.
asked and answered @EU High Court Rules on Gay 'Marriage' Rights, monday april 7th 12pm
feetxxxl
Re:another question: if we use the law for conscious, conscious of loving our neighbor as ourselves and proactively live the three commandments, what else is needed?
What else is need? Obedience!
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey him" (Heb 5:9
Obedience means to keep Jesus' words
John 14:23-24
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, 'If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.'
When you get saved you are a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor 5:17). He gives you a new nature after His own which is created in righteousness and true holiness(Eph 4:24).
The Word of God says that the deeds of the flesh (our sin nature) are to be put to death (1 Thess 3:5) and that we should put on the new man (1 Thess 3:10); that is, to repent from sin and allow your new nature to control your life.
What are the deeds of the flesh? Some of them are fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness. (1 Thess 3:5) God's wrath comes upon all who practice these.(1 Thess 3:6)
We are to put to death, to get rid of, sinful behavior, which fornication is one of them.
fornication: God's Word, says to a Christian, get it out of your life. Any kind of sex outside of marriage between one man and one woman is fornication. Fornication includes gay sex.
If you love God, as you say, then obey God and repent.
Christ gave two commands,
One to love God, with all heart mind soul
Two to love neighbor as yourself
How do we love God? By following His Commands, and doing that which pleases Him. Homosexuality has been called an abomination to the Lord. That didn't change with Christ. We are not living under OT law, we are living under God's Grace, and His eternal Commands. You have taken a onesided approach, and have forgotten God.
Two options, change your ways, or rewrite the Bible.
Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
one can follow regulation led by any spirit, fear, pride, guilt(rather than godly sorrow)etc. but 1cor 13 says anything is done without love(love that is god) is nothing and gains nothing.
that accentuates the importance of living thru the three commandments loving god, loving ones neighbor as oneself and loving one another as christ has loved us.
thru loving our neighbor as ourself we fulfill the law, and follow christ, and in doing so automatically follow the law.
as i said before if you chose to remain under the old covenat that is your choice.
another question: if we use the law for conscious, conscious of loving our neighbor as ourselves and proactively live the three commandments, what else is needed?
another question
show me a scripture in the new covenant that says that sin is dictated by tradition?
another question?
my challenge is against you are using the scripture as regulation. my understanding is that we are not under regulation or led by it, but by the spirit.
how does all premarital sex come against loving(a spirit) your neighbor as oneself as in cases where the sex is an expression and an affirmation of love, devotion, respect,and commitment.
another question>
if you chose to live under the old covenant that is your choice.
the law is now for conscious, conscious of loving ones neighbor as oneself(the summation of the law)(romans)
homosexuality to be sin and to come against christ it has come against loving ones neighbor as oneself.
one more question......................how does it come against loving ones neighbor as oneself.?
feetxxxl
The only sexual intimacy that is acceptable to God is between one man and one woman in a marriage relationship. Your feelings of mutual love,respect, devotion, and trust may exist between you and your partner but it does not negate the sinfulness of gay sex.
God says gay sex is an abomination (Lev18:22, 20:13) and all who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10).
You even approve of premartial sex (fornication). Yet, according to God's Word, fornication is a deed of the flesh (flesh=sin nature) and all who practice it will not inherit the kingdom of God.(Galatians 5:19-21) God's Word also says that "for this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:" (1 Thessalonians 4:3)
Now, according to you, under the New Covenant, Christians are no longer under the laws of the Old Covenant and whatever God declared as sin in the Old Covenant is no longer sin under the New Covenant. If that is true, then God would have never said through the Apostle Paul that it is His will for a Christian to refrain from fornication (1 Thess 4:3) and that it was a sin (a deed of the flesh) and all who practice it will go to hell. (Gal 5:19-21)
The New Covenant in Christ Jesus does not in any way abolish the laws of the Old Covenant. What God calls sin in the Old Testament is still sin in the New Testament.
Gay sex and fornicaton is still a sin in the eyes of God and all who practice either one will go to hell.
Your arguments to justify that which is ungodly has no scriptural basis.
You do not have the mind of Christ. You do not have fellowship with Christ. You do not have the spirit of Christ. If you think you do you are only fooling yourself.
feet,
You did not respond to my assertions, in a real debate you lose. Either respond, or stop pretending like you have won.
C. Spurgeon wrote,
There has by degrees risen up in this country a coterie, more than ordinarily pretentious, whose favorite cant is made up of such terms as these: "liberal views," "men of high culture," "persons of enlarged minds and cultivated intellects," "bonds of dogmatism and the slavery of creeds," "modern thought," and so on. That these gentlemen are not so thoroughly educated as they fancy themselves to be, is clear from their incessant boasts of their culture; that they are not free, is shrewdly guessed from their loud brags of liberty; and that they are not liberal, but intolerant to the last degree, is evident, from their superciliousness towards those poor simpletons who abide by the old faith. Jews in old times called Gentiles dogs, and Mahometans cursed unbelievers roundly; but we question whether any men, in any age, have manifested such contempt of others as is constantly evidenced towards the orthodox by the modern school of "cultured intellects." Let half a word of protest be uttered by a man who believes firmly in something, and holds by a defined doctrine, and the thunders of liberality bellow forth against the bigot. Steeped up to their very throats in that bigotry for liberality, which, of all others, is the most ferocious form of intolerance, they sneer with the contempt of affected learning at the idiots who contend for "a narrow Puritanism," and express a patronizing hope that the benighted adherents of "a half-enlightened creed" may learn more of "that charity which thinketh no evil." To contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints is to them an offense against the enlightenment of the nineteenth century; but, to vamp old, worn-out heresies, and pass them off for deep thinking, is to secure a high position among minds "emancipated from the fetters of traditional beliefs."
Count me a narrow fellow for I like the path which leadeth to Christ.
no one is able to answer my questions, explain their reasoning for their belief, or explain how the words of the verses say it is a sin, my only conclusion can be that such a belief is unsubstantiated, conditioned, and cultural
feet,
We have been explaining constantly, you just won't listen!
1) Sin is that which is against God, His created order, or against another human.
2) Homosexuality at least goes against the created order, and is called an abomination to God, it may or may not go against another human.
Therefore, homosexuality is a sin.
It is really that simple. If not, then I am going to need to see an explicit Bible verse that blesses homosexuality. If you cannot provide one, then we must accept the definition above. You cannot just define things the way you like.
feet,
There you go again with, "MY Jesus". How can you know the Word of God, apart from either 1) Scriptures, or 2) Some tradition? If you say tradition, I am going to have to ask you where you get the authority to make such statements like "Homosexuality is blessed" etc. If it is not Tradition then you are left with the Bible. You are subverting this entire argument with word games. State your authority, and no "MY Jesus" won't work. If you receive special revelations from "Jesus" or an angel, or some other source, then we are going to need to hear exactly what this is, so that we can test it. If not then stick with the Bible or explain your tradition.
im not looking for man's approval. my interest on this site is to see by what reasoning could someone conclude that scripture says homosexuality is a sin.
because no one is able to answer my questions, explain their reasoning, or explain how the words of the verses say it is a sin, my only conclusion can be that such a belief is unsubstantiated, conditioned, and cultural.
ifeelfine,
"...there are factual errors in the Bible and literal conradictions (numbers that don't line up, colors of the robe, etc), you cannot take it literally."
Only if you insist that numbers cannot be rounded, and that robes cannot have two colors, or two robes cannot be worn. Most contradictions are superficial at first sight, others can be explained easily. However, if you call into question the authority and validity of the Bible in this regard, then it is obvious you call all of it into question. Even if one or two areas are difficult, that doesn't mean "INTERPRET WHATEVER YOU WANT HOWEVER YOU WANT!!!" This is a gross generalization.
"But Chris is right, do test it with scripture and reason - a lesson Chris, himself could take."
What are you referring to here? What have I not tested with scripture and reason? If you are accusing me of not making similar extreme interpretations as you do, then I am sorry, no I don't do that, nor will I.
i know of only one "god's word." it is the covenant of christ, the spirit of christ, and christ himself who is god. whom god put all things under his authority.
what god's word are you referring to?
star
in lev not all prohibitions are sins of themselves, wearing mixed fabric and doing household chores on the sabbath.
number15: 32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
there are other prohibitions which though once approved are now untolerable sins.
the laws of leviticus are of the old covenant. some have carried over to the new covenant. to determine which requires testing. 1thess 5:21 test everything, keep the good.
testing thru personal witness thru the fellowship of christ in the spirit of 1john1. "that which we have looked, which we have seen with our eyes, and our hands have touched, this we proclaim."
hebrews8: 7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[b]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
feetxxxl
Whether you like it or not, you were born hetrosexual. Your physical characteristics and innate traits were defined by your DNA. One of those innate traits is to be physically attracted to the opposite sex. If you are physically attracted to the same sex then you are that way because of some kind of experience you had in life that allowed Satan to take control your desires.
God established marriage to be between one man and one woman. He intended for the man and his wife to bond "together out of mutual love, respect, devotion, attraction and trust". He commanded the man and his wife to be fruitful and to multiply and replenish the earth.
No where in the Bible does God establish marriage to be between two men or two women. There is no scriptural basis for applying the principles of hetrosexual marriage to homosexual marriage, which is what you are trying to do to justify an ungodly and abominable relationship.
Again, gay sex is an abomination (Lev 18:22, 20:13) and all who practice it will go to hell (1 Cor 6:9-10).
God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb 13:8). His views on gay sex has not changed nor will it ever change.
I don't believe you really want anyone to explain anything to you. What you want is for Christians to approve of your homosexuality. Those who hold to God's Word as their authority will never approve of your homosexuality.
If you want approval, then you will have get it from those who think like you do. ifeelfine72 at this point is the only one I know on CP that will give you the approval you are looking for.
there are more detailed ways of explaining romans.
but in essence the sins commited in the same sex relations in romans, no more condemns homosexuality than the sins committed in opposite sex relations of incestial rape of 2samuel and in the adulterous murder in 1samuel condemns heterosexuality.
but in regards to romans1 please explain what truth was exchanged for what lie, and how was what entity of creation worshipped and served so that certain individuals were given over to homosexuality(romans1:25)
otherwise romans 1 is about merely lusting after the same sex.
this has no resemblance to 2 people of the same sex bonding out of mutual love, respect, devotion, attraction and trust for a shared life together, the same as with heterosexuals.
unless you are ready to declare that there is no bonding among homsexuals only lust ridden relationships. but you are going tobe hard pressed to come up with any proof.
the fact that scripture is being thrown up in defense of a belief without explanation, is classical example of being led by the law.
there is yet to no explanation of this same belief in the essence of the spirit of christ
in the 1500's henry the eighth passed a law making the act of sodomy punishable by hanging. this was the influence of society onthe understandings of scripture. in addition in england the there is no seperation of church and state, the head of the church of england being the head of the monarchy.
most of the later english bible translations were done in 18th and 19th century england.
the term " homosexual" was transposed for the original greek , "malebed ", a compound word like the word "ladykiller" .
as you can see compound words may not retain the literal translation of the words they are composed of.
in that period 1tim and 1cor was written, only the males were the one's who were given sexual license.
the original king james translation for both 1tim and 1cor was "defiling oneself with mankind"
please explain how "malebed" and "defiling oneself with mankind" means homosexual.
my personal witness in fellowship in christ is that homosexuals bond out of mutual love, respect,attraction, devotion, and trust for a commited shared life together, the same as heterosexuals.
do you think it is being "led by the spirit"(romans) to take a term in scripture and attach all kinds of condemnation to its meaning that is devoid of any kind of personnal witness in fellowship?
ithess 5:21 says "test everything, keep the good." what is your test for the translation of 1tim and 1cor?
6 months ago i emailed the 11 translations of the 18 on www.biblegateway.com asking for a copy or annotations of all the reference materials that validated the tranposition of the word"homosexual" in 1tim and 1cor.
the response was they all thanked me for my request, saying they would refer to their translators.
since then not one word.
there have been explanations of some connection to lev. the problem is paul did not use the law to show what was or was not christ. instead examples of spirit. paul said we are no longer under the law, but grace, and in christ we were now led by the spirit and served of the spirit. to use references to the law would be qa teaching about being lead by the law.
feetxxxl
Are you Catholic?
feetxxxl
Scripture does not support homosexuality nor any of your views on sex.
God calls any kind of sex outside of marriage between one man and one woman a sin. You are not the least bit interested in what He has to say.
reedit
the thing that surprises me the most about believers, is even though they speak of the importance of spirit in ritual worship, in issues about the law they dont even acknowledge HIS existence, much less HIS importance.
1cor:1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command.
be sure to read verse 6
just as in matthew be sure to read the last sentence of verse 11. which gives dispensation not only to the unmarried, but those married to others of the same sex as well.
matthew 19: 1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[b]? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
10The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."
11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
continued
the thing that surprises me the most about believers, is even though they speak of the importance of spirit in ritual worship, in issues about the law they dont even acknowledge its existence, much less its importance.
that is because they are still chosing to be led by their understanding of the law, rather than by acknowledgement of the presence of the spirit of christ.
jesus said you will recognize them by their fruits...........................which are nine.
the issue of birth or choice is unimportant. what is important are their fruit..
no homosexual has been found lacking in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals.
they are not less a father, friend, pastor, attorney, counselor, administrator, brother, sister, neighbor etc.
also they are not less kind, gentle,patient, of love (that is god), full of goodness or self-control,joyful, peaceful, or faithful compared to heterosexuals.
this could not be said of those who are given over to the sin nature to those that are not.
Regarding homosexuality being genetic...
This can be studied by looking at identical twins. Identical twins by definition have the same DNA. Yet, it will be found that while one of the twins may be a homosexual the other is not necessarily one also.
Regarding homosexuality being a result of a biochemical/brain disfunction -
This is probably it. Drug addictions are able to affect the way the brain functions at the basic level.
Yet this isnt limited to drugs, but it applies to anything that we become sensitized to, dependent and attached to for a long period of time...
In a sense, this creates a path which our brain cannot do without. A path, much like a railway track to a train, or a road to a car...where our brain has an extremely difficult time leaving it once it is built.
How else then shall we explain bisexuality, or paedophilia, or numerous other behaviours?
The mind has been trained through repetitive and continued use of that path to the point where it cannot do anything else but travel on that road.
How else can we explain drive? the drive of a millionaire to become a billionaire, unable to stop...but to keep on piling up more and more.
Or the collector of rubbish who keeps on collecting more and more rubbish till the house and the yard and everything owned is totally filled with it, but wont stop bringing more in..
Or with anorexics...can we show that it is genetic? again, using the idea of identical twins, you will find that just because one is anorexic, the other does not necessarily follow...
And with anorexics there is a particularity that should be noted. We see that although they are in every respect truly thin...they completely see themselves as fat...undermining every reality that is flung their way..
Homosexuals act similarly. Although their sexual parts are there and they can bear children on their own without any problems...they have gotten themselves in a predicament where they will not admit to their gender, or their ability to have children....
like the anorexics they are under a complete illusion as to the reality of things....
ifeelfine72
What accounts in the Bible do you consider allegorical? What criteria do you use to decide that?
“Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let EVERY man have his own wife, and let EVERY woman have her own husband” (1Co 7:1, 2).
You really have to streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch to get around that word EVERY. The devil does offer stretching classes though. Unfortunately, many are taking classes and have become quite flexible.
Star2 said: "I don't know. Where in the Bible does it say that we should take it allegorically?"
As far as I know, it doesn't except in certain spots. However it doesn't need to. Because there are factual errors in the Bible and literal conradictions (numbers that don't line up, colors of the robe, etc), you cannot take it literally. You have to take part of the Bible with a grain of salt. Its not possible to rectify everything in the Bible without some major semantic circus tricks. And the secondly, I'm not trying to marginalize a minority group of people - you are. The burden of proof is on you.
Teen4Christ: For the most part, listen to what your pastor and parents say. But Chris is right, do test it with scripture and reason - a lesson Chris, himself could take. For what it's worth, I'm very certain that Star is not the antichrist - I have a feeling she is a mostly loving, though somewhat misguided Christian in a few areas.
Jesus and the sexually immoral woman:
JESUS saw religious men wanting to stone (punish) a woman for her immorality, and HE stepped in. HE told them that only the one who has no sin is lawfully allowed to exact punishment for sin. HE was talking about HIMSELF.
She received mercy, even though she was in the presence of the ONE SINGLE person in the history of humanity that could rightfully punish her for her sin. But with HIS free mercy came a command, "Go, and sin no more."
We, the church, have to get back to this! HE will rightly judge at the appointed time, and we should all tremble before HIM. Let us show mercy and call others to sin no more.
Teen4Christ,
Tell your Pastor that what he has said is unforgiving, judgmental, and possibly hateful. He basically said, "Even if Star "repents" (not that star needs to, she said nothing wrong), don't have anything to do with her, she is the antichrist", Well call me crazy, but I'd say that is nothing like a Christian.
Here is a hint, and it may carry a long way, do not blindly accept what your pastor says, test it with scriptures and please, use reason. Also, don't let secular society guide your faith, let Christ guide it. Whatever your parents, pastor, or society says may be good, but it could very well be directly against God. The same goes for your own biases and opinions. So test it all, and test it carefully.
feetxxxl
God cares for the struggles and burdens that homosexuals carry. He wants to forgive them of their sin, set them free from their sin, and heal their broken hearts and lives.
He did it for the homosexuals in the Church of Corinth and He wants to do it for those who are homosexuals now. (See 1 Corinthians 6:9-11)
star
eros is about attractionm but love i speak about is the love that is god, it is the love whose complementary fruit is kindness, goodness, gentleness, patience, faithfulness. self-control,peace, and joy. all given for their own sake.
if i were to ask you, who do you personnally know who is gay, who do you know who is in a bonded relationship.
who of those have you fellowshipped with in christ , carried their burdens, walked in their shoes. do you think that being in christ is sitting in an arm chair espousing religious principles.
do you tthink the love of christ is something that is done from a distance, devoid of fellowship?
personnally i think the distain for people for those attracted to the same sex is really about them, their own sexual disfunctions.
i have never heard anyone say i have walked in their shoes, carried the burdens of tho e who are activiely homosexual, and after having been with them and having prayed with them and shared christ spirit, i need to declare that they are given over to a spirit of(as in romans)........................ and the fruit of that spirit is...........................
by the very nature of this spirit it is obvious that it is against the christ. paul says those things of the sin nature are obvious, by their very nature, they are self explanatory.
what is the essence of the spirit of homosexuality and the fruit of that spirt that it would come against christ and loving ones neighbor as oneself (the summation of the law)
you keep condemning homosexuality but cannot explain how it comes against christ.
instead you continue to be led by regulation, with no explanmation of spirit or fruit of the spirit, when paul says in christ we are led by and serve of the spirit.
ifeelfine72
Re:Star: And you keep avoiding the question, where does it say the Bible is to be taken literally?
I don't know.
Where in the Bible does it say that we should take it allegorically?
Teen4Christ
I reposted my 2 part post to you explaining how our physicals characteristics and innate traits are defined by our DNA. It is the way God designed us. Perhaps the Psychiatrist and your Pastor should read it to educate themselves on it.
Teen4Christ
Part 1
Re:Did you “choose” to be heterosexual? How old were you when you consciously “chose” to be attracted to members of the opposite sex?
God created everyone hetrosexual. God created the male and female with DNA specific to their sex. God gave the male (female) DNA that establishes his (her) physical attributes and innate desires.
Some of the physical attributes for a male are wide shoulders, narrow hips, a deep voice, hair growth on his face and chest, great potential for strength, and male genitalia. "When a male walks his buttocks goes up and down, his hips do not sway, and the fatty portion of the buttocks has a slight sway."
However, the woman is physically the opposite. Some of the woman's physical characteristics are narrow shoulders and wide hips, a higher pitched voice than the male, no facial and chest hair growth, weaker physically, and has different genitalia. When a woman walks her hips have a natural sway to it in addition to the fatty portion of the buttocks swaying slightly.
Some of the male's innate desires are to provide for and protect his family, and to be sexually attracted to the female.The male is sexually aroused by sight. His needs of a woman in his marriage relationship is sexual fulfilment, recreational companionship, an attractive wife, domestic support, and admiration.
However, the woman's innate desires are to be provided for and protected, and to be sexually attracted to the male. The woman is sexually aroused by touch. Her needs in a marriage relationship with her husband is affection, communication, openness and honesty, financial support, and family committment.
The male thinks differently than a woman. He makes decisions through facts and logic and not by his heart (emotions). A male wants the bottom line of an incident. He isn't too concern about all the details on how one arrived at it.
The woman makes decisions based on her heart (emotions) and not through facts and logic. She is more interested in the details of how one arrives at the bottom line of an incident.
For example, say Mother calls her daughter and talks for 60 minutes. Mom tells her daughter all about her visit to the doctor and the problems she had with the contractor who came to do some work on the house. The Mom talks about what the nurses did to her, the problems they had in running the tests, and what the doctor said about her illness. Then she talks about how long it took the guys to repair her roof, how they were taking too long on their lunch break, how they didn't want to clean up there mess, and etc.. But, they did get the roof done. After they hang up, the husband asked about how Mom was doing. The wife wants to go into the details that her mom gave but all the husband is really interested in was, "What did the doctor say was wrong with her and did the roof get fixed." He isn't too concerned with all the details.
Teen4Christ
Part 2
Men and women were designed differently. God gave definition to the nature of a man (woman) through his (her) DNA.
Your DNA established what you are and all the characteristics that you will posses as I have mentioned above plus other stuff I am sure. If a male (female) posseses other traits contrary to the way God designed them, then it is for a different reason.
There are many different reason why a person choose to be a homosexual. Some of the reason are 1) they were sexually abused as a child, 2) they experiemented with homosexual relations, and became a slave to it, 3) they didn't have a loving relationship with their father and found a homosexual that was willing to be that for them and it led to homo sex of which he became a slave to, 4) a daughter (son) was devalued for who she (he) was and wanted to be a male (female) to be accepted, and 5) music influences that glorify homosexuality, and etc. Satan plays a role in each case. Satan is the one who has perverted the thoughts of males (females) to make them think that they were born to be gay.
Homosexuality is a spiritual problem. It is an abomination in the eyes of God. Jesus has compassion for the homosexual and wants to set him/her free from that sin and return to him/her the sexual identity that he/she was born with.
I think Teen has left the building. She went to get her ear tickled by her pastor and to have her church vote on that which is sin.
Vote away on that which is popular to your body. They will exchange the TRUTH for a lie.
feetxxxl
Gal 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffereing, gentleness , goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
'Love' in verse 22 is agape love not eros love. Agape love is the kind of love one shows in a relationship with a person whether you like the person or not, whether the person is your friend or your enemy, whether you agree with the person or not, whether the person is nice to you or not. Agape love is defined in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7.
Eros love is connected with the 'love' a person feels in their intimate, sexual relationship with another person.
God created people to feel that love but He said it is to be experienced only between one man and one woman in a married relationship. To experience it in any other way is a sin.
God said that gay sex is a sin, an abomination (Lev 18:22, 20:13), and all who practice it will go to hell (1 Cor 13:9-10).
Repent! The pleasures of your flesh are not worth going to hell over.
Teen4Christ
Part 1
Re:He said that even if you posted later and said, “Jesus the Anointed has come in flesh.”
Can you not tell that I acknowledge that Jesus Christ came in the flesh with my response?
Re:Not to trust what you say or have any more communication with you because the spirit of antichrist is a liar.
Yet your Pastor will invite the following people to speak to your Church and to educate you all on sexuality who do not know God, nor the Word of God, nor the power of God:
Rabbi - He does not acknowledge that the Jews' Messiah, Jesus Christ, came in the flesh.
Psychiatrist - may be born again but he does not understand human nature, does not know the Word of God, nor the power of God.
He says there is no peer review studies that show that that homosexual choose that orientation. Why does he look to man for answers? Why not the Word of God? He is a Christian isn't he?
Regarding human nature:
God created the male (female) to be sexually attracted to a female (male). It is an innate trait. Your physical characteristic and innate traits are defined by your DNA. Did you read what I wrote you concerning the differences between a male and a female? Of all people, that Psychiatrist should have known that a person's DNA defines what that person is.
The Psychiatrist says he knows of no one who is homosexual that has been able to change their orientation. Maybe not in his practice but there are plenty of homosexuals (male and female) who have changed by the power of God. This link www.exodus-international.org has stories of male and female homosexuals who have been delivered from homosexuality by the power of God..
Also, there were homosexuals in the Church of Corinth. After they got saved they were forgiven and set free from homosexuality by the power of God. See 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.
If the Psychiatrist understood nature of man and knew the Word of God and the power of God he would have never made the statements he made about homosexuality. All he did was feed you the wisdom of man that is contrary to the Word of God.
Teen4Christ
Part 2
A gay-couple who had been together for 23 years - they may be born again, they may not be, I don't know. But they are in rebellion against God and are in danger of going to hell. Scripture is clear on the issue of gay sex and the eternal consequences of all those who practice it. Lev 18:22, 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9-10 The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Heb 13:8) God's views on gay sex has not changed nor will it ever change. Any views they give on homosexual relationships is not scriptural and should not be listened to.
A married straight couple who just had their silver anniversary - may they are saved, maybe they are not. Is Jesus their Lord? Do they live godly in Christ Jesus? If not, why listen to them?
Re:Not to trust what you say or have any more communication with you because the spirit of antichrist is a liar.
Why did your Pastor have at least three people the Rabbi, the Psychiatrist, and the gay couple instruct your Church in sexuality when their views are in direct violation of the Word of God?
Your Pastor is the one who has the spirit of the antichrist.
The only reason your Pastor does not want you to communicate with me is because he has no answer for the question I ask you, namely, where in the Bible does God say that it is OK for two male to engage in sex or two female to engage in sex?
Teen4Christ -
You asked star2, twice, "did Jesus the Annointed come in flesh? She then posted the following two answers:
>>>Teen4Christ
Re: Did Jesus the Annointed come in flesh?
Yes!<<<
AND
<<<Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, born of a virgin, who lived a sinless life, and died for my sins and rose from the dead, who ascended to Heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and makes intercession for me is my Lord and Savior. Is He yours?<<<
______________________________
You then stated you talked with your pastor, looked up some versus, and the two of you concluded that:
>>>He said that your spirit is not of God. Instead, it is “a deceiver and antichrist” because - even given two opportunities - you would not, state that, “Jesus the Anointed has come in flesh.”
He said that even if you posted later and said, “Jesus the Anointed has come in flesh.” Not to trust what you say or have any more communication with you because the spirit of antichrist is a liar.<<<
__________________________
Now, help me out here. Didn't she answer you, twice, in the affirmative? Or is there some magic formula to this. Let's see, "1 John 4:3 says, “And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:..." I don't see a magic formula here. Do you believe she has to repeat your exact phrase, which was "Jesus the Anointed has come in flesh"?
Because if you believe that, then please read your own post:
>>>Just to clear up any misunderstandings - I proclaim that "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh! Amen!" I also proclaim that I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. Amen!<<<
You, yourself didn't repeat your exact phrase. Does this make you a spirit of the antichrist and a liar?
Being a child of the Lord is not based on a formula of words, but rather a relationship of the heart. Whether someone has truly accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior is not determined through trick questions and subterfuge, nor plots conceived with the intention of discrediting that person. Perhaps you should search your heart instead, kneel before our Savior and ask Him to bless you with discernment. Because in the end, when we stand before Him, nothing will matter except the intention of YOUR heart, and how diligently you searched to understand His purpose. On that basis only will you be judged.
“Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let EVERY man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband” (1Co 7:1, 2).
The word of God clearly instructs man that there are only two ways to avoid fornication, touch not or take a wife (woman). Such guidance is for EVERY man. Scripture does not instruct some men to have a wife and some men to have a husband or male partner.
All churches, pastors, and confessing Christians who teach that two men or two women can have a sexual relationship (married or not) are in reality promoting fornication which is contrary to scripture. What spirit is behind these churches, pastors, and confessing Christians who teach and support such fornication? It is a seducing spirit, and its doctrine is devilish.
ifeelfine72
Re:Star2: Where in the Bible does it say "no gay marriage?"
Sex is a part of a 'gay marriage' is it not? God condemns sex between two men and two women .He says it is a sin, an abomination (Levitucus 18:22, 22:13), and all those who practice it shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
Re:Where in the Bible does it say its ok for you to use the computer you are using?
The computer is amoral. My activity on it make my use of it either moral or immoral. I do not use the computer in an immoral way.
Teen,
The way of the world is to accept unrepentant sin in the name of tolerance. The way of the world is to swing wide the gate. Woe to you.
Regarding false doctrine
Your fellowship and pastor also allow those who do not believe that Christ is the Messiah to teach inside your church.
"Our fellowship believes that the expression of sexuality in marriage is not sin."
"Our fellowship believes that since gays and lesbians cannot get married in our state, the expression of their sexuality in committed relationships is not sin."
Prsteve11
You say, “the beloved Apostle Paul taught freedom from slavery and deliverance from the old eating and washing rituals.”
As far as slavery goes, the Scripture disagrees with you -
In Ephesians 6:5, “the beloved Apostle Paul” clearly commands this: “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear”
As far as eating rituals in the Old Testament are concerned, the Scriptures disagree with you-
1) The mystery writer of Acts commands in Acts 15:29 “That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled”
2) “The beloved Apostle Paul,” again, did not give a “Get out of Jail card” when it came to Christians eating meat offered to idols at pagan temples. He says, “For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ” I Corinthians 8:10-12.
Just to clear up any misunderstandings - I proclaim that "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh! Amen!" I also proclaim that I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. Amen!
There are about 230 families, or nearly 790 people, in our non-denominational Christian fellowship. Also, the fellowship’s position on several matters was agreed on during a secret ballot recently made by all the voting members in the Congregation. The vote was made after weeks of Bible study, expert panel discussions, fasting and prayer. What I actually did say was that our fellowship - not just me - agreed on the following three things.
“We do not believe that gay people choose to be gay any more than straight people choose to be straight.
Our fellowship believes that the expression of sexuality in marriage is not sin.
Our fellowship believes that since gays and lesbians cannot get married in our state, the expression of their sexuality in committed relationships is not sin.”
Again, if you're gay or lesbian and reading this... There is hope that more and more Christians like me, my friends and family support you.
Star: And you keep avoiding the question, where does it say the Bible is to be taken literally?
Star2: Where in the Bible does it say its ok for you to use the computer you are using? Where in the Bible does it say "no gay marriage?"
prsteve11 - You are a hypocrite. Regarding OT law and NT grace, you are trying to have it both ways and you can't. And its not just the OT that endorses slavery, the NT does as well but you probably already knew that.
Star2
Whoa!
I just finished a phone call with my pastor and also showed my mom and dad your 4:23 pm and 4:08 pm post. My pastor got online, saw the question I asked you, “Would you please say, ‘Jesus the Anointed has come in flesh.’?”
Your response was, “Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, born of a virgin, who lived a sinless life, and died for my sins and rose from the dead, who ascended to Heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and makes intercession for me is my Lord and Savior. Is He yours?”
My pastor asked me to look up two Scriptures:
1 John 4:3 says, “And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”
2 John 1:7 says, “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”
He said that your spirit is not of God. Instead, it is “a deceiver and antichrist” because - even given two opportunities - you would not, state that, “Jesus the Anointed has come in flesh.”
He said that even if you posted later and said, “Jesus the Anointed has come in flesh.” Not to trust what you say or have any more communication with you because the spirit of antichrist is a liar.
Amen!
Among those who accept the Bible as God's Word and as canon (a measuring stick), the test of a statement's authority should be its conformity to biblical principles. Yet many of us, for all our insistence on the authority of Scripture, pay surprisingly little attention to it-little time researching context, background or other factors essential for understanding the Bible. We may work hard to assimilate various trends of popular culture yet spend little time assimilating our lives to the Bible's teachings. I have watched some contemporary churches denigrate the traditions of older churches, yet recite verses out of context or follow extrabiblical routines that reflect traditions no less (albeit newer ones). (Bible Gateway)
I accept the Bible and it's precepts as "sound doctrine."
If our nation is to be considered Christian "a nation under God" marriage should be reserved for male and female (as He created them) to be joined as one flesh. This Holy Union produces good fruit in the eyes of the Lord. The EU and most of it's nations left the authority of God long ago. I pray our nation holds to the sanctity of marriage and life.
Teen4Christ
When you answer my question on the Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:23 pm post then please answer my questions on the Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:24 pm post.
Teen4Christ
Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, born of a virgin, who lived a sinless life, and died for my sins and rose from the dead, who ascended to Heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and makes intercession for me is my Lord and Savior. Is He yours?
Star2
I apologize, I mis-phrased the question. Would you please say, "Jesus the Annointed has come in flesh."?
Teen4Christ
When are you going to answer my questions? Where in the Bible did God say it was OK for two men to have sex with one another? Or, two women to have sex with one another?
God condemns homosexual sex in the Old Testament and in the New Testament He say that those who practice it shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Now where in the Old or New Testament does God contradict this and say that it is OK and has His blessings upon it?
Teen4Christ
Re: Did Jesus the Annointed come in flesh?
Yes!
star2
Did Jesus the Annointed come in flesh?
Teen4Christ
Where in the Bible does it say that God approves of two men having sex with one another? Or two women having sex with one another?
I can only find scripture that say that God calls it a sin, an abomination, and all who practice it shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9-10
feetxxxl
Re:testing thru personal witness thru the fellowship of christ
You have no fellowship of Christ.
Ahem. For those who confusedly use the Bible to try to say that the Lord isn't actually against homosexuality always fall into the same rut of using the Old Testament and ignorantly saying it justifies slavery and that we can't eat meet, I have this to say: you don't the Bible and you don't know God.
The New Testament fulfilled the Old Testament and all the old 'do's' and 'don'ts' were replaced with the Holy Ghost of the New Testament from the Blood of Jesus Christ. That's why the beloved Apostle Paul taught freedom from slavery and deliverance from the old eating and washing rituals. But he still taught an unflinching (and explicit) condemnation of homosexuality. Using the Old Testament to try to nullify the Bible is an exercise in ignorance and to the fools who try to do it: may God have mercy on your souls.
If you claim to be a Christian, AND use Old Testament Scriptures to condemn gays and lesbians you, MUST hold everyone else to the same standard, including yourself.
You MUST condemn…
…anyone who eats USDA prime aged beef. It is usually sold seven days old after slaughter. Offering the sacrifice of blessing and eating meat that is more than two days old after slaughter; it is…an ABOMINATION (Leviticus 7:18).
…anyone who eats shrimp, prawns, lobster, crab, oysters, mussels; they are…an ABOMINATION (Leviticus 11:9-11).
…anyone who eats angler, beluga (Sorry, caviar is out!) blue marlin, catfish, eels, gar, lumpfish, sturgeons (No caviar!), shark, skate, snake mackerel, swordfish; they are…an ABOMINATION (Leviticus 11:9-11).
… America for making the EAGLE its official symbol; it is…an ABOMINATION (Leviticus 11:13).
…the United States Government because it spent $50.5 billion developing a joint-service, multi-mission aircraft (VTOL transport) and christened it after the OSPREY…it is an ABOMINATION (Leviticus 11:13).
… a cute, little, four-legged duck [Do an online search for “duck-with-four-legs” & you’ll see the abominable Satan-beast!]; it is…an ABOMINATION (Leviticus 11:13).
…Central- & South-Americans & Asians who eat snake for protein; it is…an ABOMINATION (Leviticus 11:41).
…All the good folks in Sweetwater, Texas who eat snake meat at their annual Rattlesnake Roundup; it is…an ABOMINATION (Leviticus 11:41).
…the United States Treasury Department and its employees. They engrave and print the pyramid, a symbol ancient Egypt’s pharaoh-gods, on our money; it is…an ABOMINATION unto the Lord thy God (Deuteronomy 7:25).
…anyone who touches a U.S. one dollar bill. It bears a pyramid, the ancient Egyptian pharaoh-gods’ emblem on it. Though Federal Law forbids the destruction of currency, Scripture requires you burn it with fire; it is…an ABOMINATION (Deuteronomy 7:25).
…anyone who brings aged beef, non-Kosher seafood, American currency or images with the eagle or pyramid into their house; they are… an ABOMINATION (Deuteronomy 7:26).
…any women who wear jeans or slacks; it is… an ABOMINATION unto the Lord thy God (Deuteronomy 22:5).
…any males who wear necklaces, bracelets or an earring; it is… an ABOMINATION unto the Lord thy God (Deuteronomy 22:5).
…Scotsmen wearing kilts, which look like women’s skirts. It is… an ABOMINATION unto the Lord thy God (Deuteronomy 22:5).
…the Unites States military. Its servicemen wear blouses, not, shirts! Only women may wear blouses. It is…an ABOMINATION unto the Lord thy God (Deuteronomy 22:5).
…any person who has ever lied; it is… an ABOMINATION (Proverbs 6:16-19; 12:22).
Also if you use Old Testament Scripture to condemn gay people, and partake in ONE of the abominations, above, YOU, YOURSELF ARE CONDEMNED: “For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the SOULS that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.” (Leviticus 18:29)
star
in lev not all prohibitions are sins of themselves, wearing mixed fabric and doing household chores on the sabbath.
number15: 32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
there are other prohibitions which though once approved are now untolerable sins.
the laws of leviticus are of the old covenant. some have carried over to the new covenant. to determine which requires testing. 1thess 5:21 test everything, keep the good.
testing thru personal witness thru the fellowship of christ in the spirit of 1john1. "that which we have looked, which we have seen with our eyes, and our hands have touched, this we proclaim."
hebrews8: 7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[b]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
star
repent of being given over to what spirit?
feetxxxl
Repent or you will perish!
terryh
this got lost in the sending.
in the 1500'S henry the eigth instituted a law that made sodomy punishable by hanging, this was the culture that the 18th and 19th century translators lived. remember in england the church and state are infused, the queen of england being head of the church of england.
Lipoftruth - Direct your comments to jesusis1, not Teen4Christ. jesusis1 is the one that brought up the idea of killing gay people.
Teen, the repeated theme "should be put to death" over and over. We as sinners are ALL worthy of death and yet the Love from the Son of Man, the giver of life extended to us ALL who will receive it "I do not condemn you, Go From now on sin no more."
Clearly, we deserve death but we are given by grace (Jesus) a way out of sin. "Go, and sin no more."
In the Garden, Adam was instructed not to eat or he would surly die. Adam was made as man in three parts, body (elements-dust), soul (in Hebrew-blood) and spirit (image of God). God does not lie so when Adam in his fallen state sinned he died to God (in spirit) and he was cast out of fellowship and communion with God. Adam, died a spiritual death that very day.
We are to take God at His Word. We are not to justify our sin, any sin.
Teen, we are all sinners. I hate divorce and what it does to family. I hate to see young people curse their parents (not mere curse words) but curse as in dishonor. Sin, is a frightfull thing. This generation is so sinful (prideful) as we move further and further from God's ideal.
It is not our place to bring death to transgressors, it is the Soverign God who will judge us all in His good time.
Praise be to God. May I be counted worthy for He is a loving and just God.
terryh
most of the later english bible translations were done in 18th and 19th century england.
the original greek term, that the term " homosexual" was transposed for, was "malebed ", a compound word like the word "ladykiller" .
as you can see compound words may not retain the literal translation of the words they are composed of.
in that period 1tim and 1cor was written, only the males were the one's who were given sexual license.
the original king james translation for both 1tim and 1cor was "defiling oneself with mankind"
please explain how "malebed" and "defiling oneself with mankind" means homosexual.
my personal witness in fellowship in christ is that homosexuals bond out of mutual love, respect,attraction, devotion, and trust for a commited shared life together, the same as heterosexuals.
do you think it is being "led by the spirit"(romans) to take a term in scripture and attach all kinds of condemnation to its meaning that is devoid of any kind of witness thru personal fellowship?
ithess 5:21 says "test everything, keep the good." what is your test for the translation of 1tim and 1cor?
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
1 Corinthians 6:9,10
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 1:8-10
8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
1 John 1:9
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Luke 15:7
7"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them.
3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
4they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5"Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either Go From now on sin no more."]
Jesusis1
Are you also saying that…
The Christian monks who live in their monastery on Mount Sinai or the pilgrims who visit there should be put to death? (Exodus 19:12)
A child who hits his or her mom or dad should be put to death? (Exodus 21:15)
A child who curses his or her mom or dad should be put to death? (Exodus 21:17, Leviticus 20:9)
Anyone who does ANY work on the Lord’s Day should be put to death? (Exodus 31:14, 15 and 35:2)
All adulterers should be put to death? (Leviticus 20:10)
Magicians should be put to death…by stoning (Leviticus 20:27)
Everyone who says the name of the Lord in vain should be put to death…by stoning? (Leviticus 24:16)
Anyone who does not tithe appropriately should be put to death? (Leviticus 27:29)
A child that disobeys his father or mother should be put to death…by stoning? (Deuteronomy 18:21)
All people who do not seek the Lord should be put to death? (2 Chronicles 15:13)
i think its interesting to note that the people who rallied to kern's defense, didnt do so in the name of professing the gospel or professing the spirit of christ, but did it the name of free speech. this puts her in the same company with the klu klux klan and and the black panthers.
to whom it may concern
explain how receiving the spirit of god, means we know the mind of god regarding the law.
having received the spirit explain why it took believers 1800 years to realize that ethnic slavery was against christ having the benefit of scripture.
or explain why it took 2000 years for believers to finaly see that antisemitism was against christ, the culmination being the halocaust, commited by a christian country, the first in the 1500's to receive the bible written in their native language, whose national hero luther, was the first to publically espouse the understanding of "grace thru faith" even though it had been written scripture for 1000 years along with romans 10 and 11.
are you telling me that it was very clear about the mind of god in these 2 issues because believers received the spirit and had the triune god living in them
and regarding the issue of homosexuality acoording to your understanding explain what lie was exchanged for what truth, and how was what entity of creation worshipped and served so that certain people were given over to homosexuality?
Jesusis1
Do you love the United States of America?
Feetxxxl—
“please explain how the words of the verses very clearly show the law regarding homosexuality ?”
Not so fast. I’ll answer your question, but we need to first finish the previous discussion. You made some pretty strong claims that we can’t know the mind of God. I responded that we certainly can because God has revealed His mind in Scripture in many forms, including His laws. How else do we know to love Him above all things, to love our neighbor, to not murder, to not commit adultery, to not steal, etc. Do you agree with this or not?
feetxxxl
Where in the Bible does it say that God gives His approval and says it is OK for two men to have sex with one another? Or for two women to have sex with one another?
tgender
please explain how the words of the verses very clearly show the law regarding homosexuality ?
If you think that you cannot know the mind of God it would be because you are lacking the Spirit.
1Cr 2:11- " For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. "
Wait for it......... don't take that out of context.........why?.........read on.
1 COR 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, THAT WE MIGHT KNOW the things that have been freely given to us by God."
1Cr 2:14-16 " But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST. "
Feetxxxl--
“My understanding is we don’t know the mind of god, and to assume so is not supported by scripture. What scripture is for? ..to show us how much he loves us.”
Yes, but Scripture also very clearly reveals God’s law to us, which is a reflection of who God is. How can you ignore the abundant evidence in Scripture of how we should and should not act? God has revealed His mind (desires, purposes, plans, expectations, laws) to us in Scripture. We ignore it at our own peril.
to whom it may concern:
do we know the mind of god?
those of you who are married or have an intimate friend, do you know the mind of them. when he or she does something? do you know their intent?...............................what their alterior motive is for the things they do?....................can you say what they are thinking and their reason for thinking something? yet you have an intimate relationship that communicates much more than anything that could be comminicated thru the written word. and we are talking about, someone who has similar ways.
however god who created the universe, is responsible for its eternal life, and is at all parts of our 100 billion lightyear wide universe at the same time,and has always existed, even before the universe existed. god's quote in scripture is not only are our ways not his ways, but that hey are so different by nature they are as far apart as the heavens are from the earth.
this follows my comment that one of the requirements for believing by regulation, example.... homosexuality is a sin, without any corroborating spirit witness, is that one must credit themselves with knowing the intent (mind)of god regarding the law.
even the holy spirit, sent by the father and the son , speaks only what he hears.................not from his knowing.
my understanding is we dont know the mind of god, and to assume so is not supported by scripture.
what scripture is for?
..to show us how much he loves us
"The choice is simple: Either we pay the penalty for our own sins or Christ pays the penalty on our behalf."
tgender, Excellent post. The Word is true for us all.
Real Love speaks the TRUTH!
Praise God
Shrdlu42--
“tgender, maybe your version of Christianity believes that ‘For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it’, but Judaism rejects that piece of propaganda. It is enough that people try to live a moral life and, when they stumble, recognize their error, try to make amends, and do better in the future.’”
Judaism isn’t the only religion that rejects it; so does every belief system other than orthodox Christianity. You hold the view that is predominant in the world today. The problem with this view is that the standard you employ for a “moral life” is based on human “goodness”, not God’s holiness. You compare yourself to pedophiles and serial killers and your next door neighbor and conclude that you are morally superior, but that would be an incorrect assessment in God’s eyes. If you would realize that God’s standard is moral perfection, then you’d realize your desperate need for a Savior.
BTW, this is not “my version of Christianity”—it is God’s version as expressed in the Bible.
“And, yes you did equate being a Hindu with being a pedophile or serial killer - they’re all going to the same place according to your beliefs.”
You are right about what I was saying. I hurried my response last night and regretted that I did not word it as I should have. However, it’s not just Hindus who are going to Hell—it’s everyone—you, me, and anyone else who doesn’t have their sins paid for. Any one of our multitude of sins is enough to incur God’s wrath and condemn us to Hell. That’s why Christ died for our sins—to pay the penalty, rescue us from eternal condemnation, and secure everlasting peace and joy with God. The choice is simple: Either we pay the penalty for our own sins or Christ pays the penalty on our behalf.
Shrdlu42
You do not understand human nature.
Star2 - I really don’t have the time to respond to all the nonsense you’ve posted on this topic, so I’ll limit myself to just one: “The male thinks differently than a woman. He makes decisions through facts and logic and not by his heart (emotions).”
Oh, really? Then I suppose Elliot Spitzer carefully weighed all the advantages and disadvantages before setting out to destroy his career. I guess Ted Bundy, the husbands who kill their wives, Romeo, Marc Anthony, Tristan, Captain Ahab, etc., were all models of rational thought. And, of course, Madame Curie was able to do her Nobel Prize winning scientific research by falling in love with radium! Give me a break!
Oh, and tgender, maybe your version of Christianity believes that “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it”, but Judaism rejects that piece of propaganda. It is enough that people try to live a moral life and, when they stumble, recognize their error, try to make amends, and do better in the future.
To declare that there is no difference between a “white lie” and serial killing is moral idiocy. And, yes you did equate being a Hindu with being a pedophile or serial killer - they’re all going to the same place according to your beliefs - and for me that’s the number one reason your beliefs are wrong!
Teen4Christ
Satan is the author or source of a man (woman) being physically or sexually attracted to another man (woman). It is not of God. The man (woman) was not born that way.
The professionals that came to your Church to talk about homosexuality had their understanding darkened by the vain philosophies of man.
There are many voices in the world. One says "This is what is right", while another will say, "No, this is what is right", and yet another will say something else. Everything that you hear must be measured against the Word of God for it is God's Word that establishes what is truth. If any professional says something different than what the Word of God says then it is to be rejected. You need to pray for discernment. These professionals have led you and your Church astray.
Teen4Christ--
“Speaking about me you wrote, ‘You’re saying that homosexuality is not a sin.’ Please understand that I did not say that… Our fellowship believes that since gays and lesbians cannot get married in our state, the expression of their sexuality in committed relationships is not sin.”
You are a very confused person. You said multiple times that homosexuality and “expressing homosexuality” is not a sin. I quoted you above in the same post where you denied saying it. Or are you saying you disagree with your church? And if so, then why do you act like you agree and continue to fellowship there?
Teen4Christ--
“Are you saying that gay and lesbian people can choose to not be gay or lesbian?”
Yes, gays and lesbians can choose to not act on their homosexuality. I’ve met some and admire their unwavering commitment to Christ. All people have a disposition to sin. Some sins are more deep-rooted in certain people than other sins and those habits may be very hard to change. I struggle with the sin of being impatient for example. However—and this is the important thing—we all have a choice to not act on our sinful tendencies, including homosexuals. I’m not saying it’s easy. I’m just saying that it is the right thing to do.
“I showed your post to my next-door friend and classmate. He showed it to his parents. They are Hindus from India…They asked if all Christians thought non-Christians were the same as pedophiles and serial killers, like you do. My dad said, “Some think that way, but we don’t.”
What you did was misguided and wrong. I also have Hindu friends and I would never say to them that they were the same as a pedophile or serial killer. What I said was that sin is what God says is sin, which can include deeds, attitudes, and thoughts (including unbelief). The Bible teaches that there are varying degrees of sin and we will be punished accordingly. But the Bible also says that only one sin can keep you out of heaven. “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it” (James 2:10). So, in a very real sense, there is in fact no difference between a tiny white lie and a serial killing. We’re all guilty—that’s why we need a Savior.
Unfortunately, your Hindu friends are headed for Hell because they don’t believe in Christ and that should concern you. “Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me” (John 16:7-9).
Teen4Christ
Part 1
Re:Did you “choose” to be heterosexual? How old were you when you consciously “chose” to be attracted to members of the opposite sex?
God created everyone hetrosexual. God created the male and female with DNA specific to their sex. God gave the male (female) DNA that establishes his (her) physical attributes and innate desires.
Some of the physical attributes for a male are wide shoulders, narrow hips, a deep voice, hair growth on his face and chest, great potential for strength, and male genitalia. When a male walks his buttocks goes up and down and doesn't sway except a slight sway in the fatty portion of it.
However, the woman is physically the opposite. Some of the woman's physical characteristics are narrow shoulders and wide hips, a higher pitched voice than the male, no facial and chest hair growth, weaker physically, and has different genitalia.When a woman walks her buttocks has a natural sway to it in addition to the fatty portion swaying slightly.
Some of the male's innate desires are to provide for and protect his family, and to be sexually attracted to the female.The male is sexually aroused by sight. His needs of a woman in his marriage relationship is sexual fulfilment, recreational companionship, an attractive wife, domestic support, and admiration.
However, the woman's innate desires are to be provided for and protected, and to be sexually attracted to the male. The woman is sexually aroused by touch. Her needs in a marriage relationship with her husband is affection, communication, openness and honesty, financial support, and family committment.
The male thinks differently than a woman. He makes decisions through facts and logic and not by his heart (emotions). A male wants the bottom line of an incident. He isn't too concern about all the details on how one arrived at it.
The woman makes decisions based on her heart (emotions) and not through facts and logic. She is more interested in the details of how one arrives at the bottom line of an incident.
For example, say Mother calls her daughter and talks for 60 minutes. Mom tells her daughter all about her visit to the doctor and the problems she had with the contractor who came to do some work on the house. The Mom talks about what the nurses did to her, the problems they had in running the tests, and what the doctor said about her illness. Then she talks about how long it took the guys to repair her roof, how they were taking too long on their lunch break, how they didn't want to clean up there mess, and etc.. But, they did get the roof done. After they hang up, the husband asked about how Mom was doing. The wife wants to go into the details that her mom gave but all the husband is really interested in was, "What did the doctor say was wrong with her and did the roof get fixed." He isn't too concerned with all the details.
Teen4Christ
Part 2
Men and women were designed differently. God gave definition to the nature of a man (woman) through his (her) DNA.
Your DNA established what you are and all the characteristics that you will posses as I have mentioned above plus other stuff I am sure. If a male (female) posseses other traits contrary to the way God designed them, then it is for a different reason.
There are many different reason why a person choose to be a homosexual. Some of the reason are 1) they were sexually abused as a child, 2) they experiemented with homosexual relations, and became a slave to it, 3) they didn't have a loving relationship with their father and found a homosexual that was willing to be that for them and it led to homo sex of which he became a slave to, 4) a daughter (son) was devalued for who she (he) was and wanted to be a male (female) to be accepted, and 5) music influences that glorify homosexuality, and etc. Satan plays a role in each case. Satan is the one who has perverted the thoughts of males (females) to make them think that they were born to be gay.
Homosexuality is a spiritual problem. It is an abomination in the eyes of God. Jesus has compassion for the homosexual and wants to set him/her free from that sin and return to him/her the sexual identity that he/she was born with.
“Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband” (1Co 7:1, 2).
The word of God clearly instructs man that there are only two ways to avoid fornication, touch not or take a wife (woman). Such guidance is for EVERY man. Scripture does not instruct some men to have a wife and some men to have a husband or male partner.
Take heed, lest you are of “a generation [that are] pure in their own eyes, and [yet] is not washed from their filthiness” (Pr 30:12).
tgender
Speaking about me you wrote, “You’re saying that homosexuality is not a sin.”
Please understand that I did not say that.
There are about 230 families, or nearly 790 people, in our non-denominational Christian fellowship. Also, the fellowship’s position on several matters was agreed on during a secret ballot recently made by all the voting members in the Congregation. The vote was made after weeks of Bible study, expert panel discussions, fasting and prayer. What I actually did say was that our fellowship - not just me - agreed on the following three things.
“We do not believe that gay people choose to be gay any more than straight people choose to be straight.
Our fellowship believes that the expression of sexuality in marriage is not sin.
Our fellowship believes that since gays and lesbians cannot get married in our state, the expression of their sexuality in committed relationships is not sin.”
There are several born-again gay and lesbian life-long couples in our fellowship. We also have Kenyan, Chinese, and Mexican immigrant families, as well as physically challenged people in our church family. Our congregation would not be the same without these wonderful people. I am blessed to be in such a terrific and diverse spiritual family!
May Christ’s peace be with you!
seedplanter… You say, “The Bible states that there is a basis for divorce; adultery.”
Are you saying that the Bible approves of divorce?
Please help me out…what IS the Bible’s teaching here? I’d appreciate it if you would share with me all the verses you can. An explanation for each verse would really be awesome! Thanks, and…
Christ’s Peace!
tgender Putting gay and lesbian people into your trail mix of “alcoholics, drug addicts, pedophiles, adulterers, serial killers, greedy people, those who are angry, those who lust, liars, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and atheists” really doesn’t make sense.
Are you saying that gay and lesbian people can choose to not be gay or lesbian? The Christian psychiatrist at our fellowship’s seminar said there are no conclusive, “peer-reviewed” studies proving that sexual orientation is a choice.
Did you “choose” to be heterosexual? How old were you when you consciously “chose” to be attracted to members of the opposite sex?
BTW - I showed your post to my next-door friend and classmate. He showed it to his parents. They are Hindus from India. Our families are good friends. They have been to church with us (my family) a few times. We pray that someday they might come to know the Lord – but we still are close neighbors with them and have deep respect for them.
They asked if all Christians thought non-Christians were the same as pedophiles and serial killers, like you do. My dad said, “Some think that way, but we don’t.”
I am so proud of my dad.
Christ’s peace!
What I cannot understand is that people who claim that the Bible only speaks against homosexuality in a couple of passages in the Bible. My question to those who ignore these passages is where in the Bible is homosexuality affirmed. If it is not a sin, it would be mentioned. Also, thos who support homosexuality always state that Jesus did not mention it. He did mention marriage stating that it is between a Man and a Woman for life
Teen4Christ—
I’m curious…since you are a professing Christian who believes that homosexuality is not a sin, I presume you fall into one of these two camps:
1. Scripture does not teach that homosexuality is a sin.
2. You elevate your own “knowledge” and/or feelings above certain passages of Scripture. Those who do not believe in the inerrancy of Scripture often do this in areas where they feel the Bible “got it wrong.”
Would you mind elaborating on which of these views you hold and why? Thanks.
Teen, yes, in God's grace and peace.
I am SHOCKED that a fellowship professing to be Christian would invite a rabbi into the church to teach. By your own disclosure "My dad, mom and I already signed up along with about 60 other people in our Fellowship for the Hebrew classes!" and " The rabbi is a neat man. He’s smart, has a great sense of humor, and made the Old Testament Scriptures come alive for everyone"
Honestly, this man does not claim our Savior even lives and yet he "makes the scriptures come alive."
Is this drift where the Christian church is headed. This is not happening in an academic setting it is happening inside a Christian Fellowship (church).
lipoftruth –
Thanks, for asking about my 9 p.m. posting from April 2nd. The committee at our Christian fellowship which organized the week-long sexuality seminar invited a professor (who’s also a rabbi) to speak to us and sit on the discussion panel. His credentials were printed on the program. He graduated from the Schechter Rabbinical Seminary in Jerusalem. He also has doctoral degrees in Biblical Hebrew and Biblical History from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and spent a total of 14 years living and studying in Israel. Too cool!
I’ve sat in plenty of Tuesday night youth group Bible studies and Sunday school classes that seemed as dry as…well…sawdust. The rabbi is a neat man. He’s smart, has a great sense of humor, and made the Old Testament Scriptures come alive for everyone at the “advance” when he spoke about sexuality in the Hebrew Scriptures. He’s even offered to teach people in our congregation who are at least sixteen years old Biblical Hebrew. My dad, mom and I already signed up along with about 60 other people in our Fellowship for the Hebrew classes!
I think that if anyone in the congregation, including the pastors and deacons, objected to what the rabbi shared, they would have said so during the question and answer after his presentation and the panel discussion.
May Jesus’ peace be with you!
Teen4Christ
"I am so glad that our family is in a non-denominational Christian fellowship where everyone is welcome."
"Everyone on the panel was born-again except the rabbi."
Why as a Christian would you be sitting under the teaching of a non-Christian concerning matters such as these?
Teen, Just how inclusive do you suppose you should get? The NT teaches clearly we are to love all. A distinction is then made once a believer is part of the body (church) they are held to a different standard. I believe all should be welcome into worship ALL are welcome. The difference is we are then instructed clearly by scripture to turn from sin and further if a brother does not turn away we are to rebuke them. What you are saying is we should be affirming of this sin (lifestyle)?
Where are you going to place your trust? Wisdom of man, 'he said-she said, this institution said" logic? The disciples of Christ at times stated His way was hard teaching. The world is lining up in the name of tolerance to make the way to Christ broad. They want to tell you the gate is meant to swing wide and we are just called to love. Is this really the path we are to choose? Is this really the path you wish to follow?
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Teen4Christ-
“Sorry for the misunderstanding. Our non-denominational Christian fellowship welcomes everyone. We do not believe that gay people choose to be gay any more than straight people choose to be straight. Our fellowship believes that the expression of sexuality in marriage is not sin. Our fellowship believes that since gays and lesbians cannot get married in our state, the expression of their sexuality in committed relationships is not sin.”
I don’t think I’ve misunderstood you. You’re saying that homosexuality is not a sin. The Bible says it is; therefore I disagree with you.
tgender
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Our non-denominational Christian fellowship welcomes everyone.
We do not believe that gay people choose to be gay any more than straight people choose to be straight.
Our fellowship believes that the expression of sexuality in marriage is not sin.
Our fellowship believes that since gays and lesbians cannot get married in our state, the expression of their sexuality in committed relationships is not sin.
Peace, in Christ!
“Divorce is legal, according the Bible it shouldn't be. Where is the outrage people?”
The Bible states that there is a basis for divorce; adultery.
I agree with you in your last question as it pertains to the church at large growing accustomed to the regularity of divorce. This does not insinuate that homosexuality, extra-marital affairs and premarital-sex are all ok with God nor that they are not in fact sins against Christ.
Teen4Christ-
“Since gay people cannot change who they are. They are not sinning.”
Since alcoholics cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Since drug addicts cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Since pedophiles cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Since adulterers cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Since serial killers cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Since greedy people cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Since those who are angry cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Since those who lust cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Since liars cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Since Muslims cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Since Buddhists cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Since Hindus cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Since atheists cannot change who they are, they are not sinning.
Should I go on? Sin is sin because God says so, not because somebody thinks “that’s just the way they are.”
lipoftruth
Just a favor, if you’re going to quote me, please quote all of what I said.
I said, “So if you're gay or lesbian and reading this... There is hope that more and more believers like me, my friends and family support you.”
I am so glad that our family is in a non-denominational Christian fellowship where everyone is welcome.
We just had a week-long advance (some people at other churches call them retreats) at our Church. One of the topics was sexuality. We had a rabbi, psychiatrist, a gay-couple who had been together for 23 years and a married straight couple who just had their silver anniversary and our pastor do a Saturday-long seminar. Everyone on the panel was born-again except the rabbi.
The rabbi talked about Genesis 19 and Judges 19. He said that the townspeople were angry at Lot for bringing strangers into Sodom and the old man for bringing strangers into Gibeah. He explained that Lot and the old man were actually strangers in the towns they lived in, which were Canaanite. He explained that night raids on towns where many people were murdered were common. For strangers to endanger the town, the citizens demanded revenge. It was customary in Canaanite towns to castrate, or sexually “mess up” the offenders, if not kill them.
He said it was like the U.S. soldiers in Abu Ghraib attaching electrodes to male prisoners’ genitals, making them dress in women’s underpants, or pile up on each other naked. He also talked about New York City policemen who used a stick from a toilet plunger to rape Abner Louima, a Haitian immigrant. It’s like…humiliation at its worst.
He said Genesis and Judges 19 was not about “gays gone wild,” but enraged citizens demanding vigilante justice on strangers who were taken in without the town-elders’ approval.
The psychiatrist said that gay people are gay. Just like straight people are straight or like “bi” people are “bi.” Period. He explained that Romans 1:21 is used by Christians who are desperate to show that gays can be made straight. He said in all his years of clinical experience, he’s never seen one gay or lesbian person “become” straight. The American Psychological Association doesn’t think gays or lesbians are unhealthy. He did say that some bi people could choose to be only with an opposite-sex partner. Since gay people cannot change who they are. They are not sinning.
I am so glad that gay and lesbian couples are beginning to be given equal rights. Praise God!
ifeelfine72 and Teen4Christ-
“Why don't the same old posters who claim to be outraged over the supposed ‘sin’ of being gay or lesbian get all worked up over the sins of ‘adultery,’ ‘hypocrisy,’ ‘fornication,’ or ‘being judgmental’?
“Teen4Christ: I've been saying the exact same thing and most here would rather leave the plank in their eye until they are blind.”
The fact is that adultery, divorce, hypocrisy, fornication, etc are also sins that grieve God’s heart and we should hate them as well. Who has said otherwise? I thought the point of most of these posts was to respond to an article on the website. We don’t write the articles.
Your shared view seems to be that since there are so many sins, we should not judge any of them!
StJohn\'s-
"Boaz, "traditional/true marriage' according to the Bible was most certainly NOT between one man and one woman. That norm came much later. "
How much earlier can you get than the Garden of Eden? "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh" (Gen 2:24).
Boaz, "traditional/true marriage' according to the Bible was most certainly NOT between one man and one woman. That norm came much later.
Teen4Christ: I've been saying the exact same thing and most here would rather leave the plank in their eye until they are blind.
Divorce is legal, according the Bible it shouldn't be. Where is the outrage people?
"There is hope that more and more believers like me"
Based on our God's clear teaching and instruction in scripture the hope you lay hold of may indeed be a false one. I sure would not be willing to risk my eternal life on support of men.
Part of the cause of this flap is while Gay advocates promote the lifestyle thru parades etc. Adulters, fornicators and others do not typically march in public and for good reason. Let's just call sin what it is.
It's kind of wierd to me that people get all "Thus saith the Lord..." when it comes to gay people.
This website has a sub-tab about "Gay Issues" under the main "Society" tab. Even a teenager can smell something fishy...Why isn't there a "Divorce Issues" tab?
Why don't the same old posters who claim to be outraged over the supposed "sin" of being gay or lesbian get all worked up over the sins of "adultery," "hypocrisy," "fornication," or "being judgmental"?
How about the sin of "divorce?" Where are all the Bible verses, and talk of "sin" when it comes to the REAL threat to families?
Gimme a break...
BTW - I proclaim that "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh! Amen!" I also proclaim that I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. Amen!
So if you're gay or lesbian and reading this... There is hope that more and more believers like me, my friends and family support you.
Peace!
feetxxxl-
"its interesting to see what is required in order to believe that homosexuality is a sin. that is having to credit oneself with knowing the mind of god."
Isn't that what God did when He gave us Scripture?
its interesting to see what is required in order to believe that homosexuality is a sin. that is having to credit oneself with knowing the mind of god.
all the countries that have not accepted same sex marriage are predominantly catholic.
social politics makes for strange bedfellows
actually it is a shame because this really serves to cheapen traditional/true marriage between one man and one woman for life as God intended
It is a shame that our country can't do the same, but I'm glad a court somewhere acknowledges the fact that couples should not be discriminated against because of sexual oreintation.
E who indeed ;-)
"E" who? Never heard of it...
StJohn\'s - this is from Exodus 12:48 NIV - "An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the LORD's Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat of it.
You claimed that the old testament taught to discriminate and yet here is God telling his chosen people to allow the alien to participate in the most holy of celebrations - as long as they are willing to conform to God's standards.
Homosexuality is a sin, it is counter to God's design. If you are a homosexual God loves and and died for you - Romans 5:8. If being homosexual is more important than being with Jesus the Christ, that is what the problem is.
StJohn's,
Most of those other issues were not backed up by the Bible. For instance the Bible does not say a white man cannot marry a black woman, that was something that was made up because it was seen as a disgrace back then (when black people had a lower status than white people).
This is not the case with gay marriage. For one thing, homosexuality is a sin, simple as that. And furthermore got declared marriage for a man and woman only.
Interracial marriages in this country, which were not fully recognized until 1968, were strongly opposed by biblical literalists, just as they opposed women's liberation, the abolition of slavery, the acceptance of usury, and the American Revolution, and now gay rights. They probably would have opposed the admission of Gentiles in the early Church too! Because the Jewish Scriptures were clear on this point too!
Just like with interracial marriages in the 50's and 60's - right, FullGospel?
I wonder if, in 20 years, when there's no distinction in benefits, etc. between marriage and these unions that they won't start pushing to eliminate the term civil unions and just start using marriage. Seems like an experiment in desensitization to me.