Biblical Authority and the Preacher

ShayneU »

Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

If I am reading the majority of the postings right, It seems that Ephesians 4:7-16 is really being questioned by those who seem to say that the pastor is not as important because we all have the HOLY SPIRIT. Ephe 4:11 starts by saying "...And He Himself ( I believe this is refering to the Lord JESUS CHRIST ) gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some poastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of GOD, to a perfect man to the measure of the stature of the fullness of CHRIST....". It is clear that the head of the church gave "imperfect men' to be pastors. True that many have fallen short of perfection, this does not negate the fact that GOD thinks they are important. The gospel of CHRIST has been entrusted to men. When we resist that which GOD has ordained let us remember James 5:5-11.

Chris333 »

Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

If we say there is a priesthood (in the sense that all should be leaders of the church) of all believers, then it seems the position of pastor becomes more obscure. We would only go to a Church because we either enjoy the pastors speeches, or because we feel like he is a smarter priest than we are. Then if he said something we disagreed with, our church would either need to have a schism, or else we would just have to put up with it. Perhaps our attendance at that church would only last as long as the pastor's being there, and when he died, or left, then we might move. Indeed this seems to be what many people are doing, just moving around from church to church, saying, "Oh I really liked that message".

coffee »

Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

What about the thousands of people who are not ordained preachers but are in ministry? Can't a person be a godly Christian clown or comedian? Isn't there the priesthood of all believers? Isn't there some kind of witness of the Spirit to be relied upon?

Chris333 »

Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:32 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

"Men of God will endure to the end. They don't just preach but put their very lives on the line for the word of God. So they are important as example of true faith in Christ."

This is agreed, but the topic here is about pastors.

Chris333 »

Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:32 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

holito,

I think you are confusing the positions of "Prophet" and "Leader" or "Teacher". Certainly some in the New Testament times were given the gift of prophecy, but prophecy does not equal Church Leader. Also, the vast majority of pastors do not claim to make prophecies. Therefore are you claiming that we should reject all pastors who do not make accurate prophesies? This would be an extra-biblical qualification. For that matter, you do once again go back to the Bible, when you say that we are supposed to investigate what the pastor says. But again, this shows that the pastor is only as good as he rightly interprets the Bible. And as I stated earlier, this makes a pastor only helpful if they know more than you do, and even then, they could know more than you, but not say the right things.

holito8 »

Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Isaiah 6:8
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?
Then I said, "Here am I! Send me."
Present our bodies a living sacrifice holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
1 Cornithians 4
9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men. 10We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.

Men of God will endure to the end. They don't just preach but put their very lives on the line for the word of God. So they are important as example of true faith in Christ.

holito8 »

Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

It seems as though most responders did in fact agree that a pastor is not all so important.

I have to disagree. God in old testament says he will raise up a prophet from among the people. Again, the Bible tells us that a spiritually lead man judges all things. 2 Peter also says that holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. You cannot seperate holy men of God from being important. They are God's instrument for which he speaks.

"The Holy Spirit is leading me" both liberal and conservative, mormon, Jehovah's witness, Catholic and Orthodox, and everything in between. It seems almost impossible, taking at face value, to know who has the Holy Spirit, unless we say, "Well if they are saying something that is supported by Scripture, then the Holy Spirit is guiding them" But this is not saying the Holy Spirit is guiding them, it is saying that Scripture is guiding them and perhaps the Holy Spirit is helping them understand Scripture, though we cannot be sure, and it could simply be good judgment.

The reason why people fail to reconize holy men of God is because of covetness and lustful desires. By covetness they will decieve you with deceptive word for a long time their judgement has not been idle and their destruction does not slumber.
Covetness they are alway offering you things that you want but people of God have to investigate them closer.
When Jesus spoke to the people there were two that almost alway were around the Pharisees and the Scribes. The Pharisees looked at the interpertation of the law. The Scribes looked at the "letter" of the law. But Jesus also didn't just speak. Works of faith followed according to the Scriptures.
God says a prophet is true if what he says comes to pass. He also says you will know if a man is holy by the fruits he produces. The Bible gives us enough guidelines to determine if a man is of Christ or not. We are lazy and just take them at face value; God has given us the word of Truth. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Chris333 »

Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:10 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Well thanks for your thoughts everyone.

It seems as though most responders did in fact agree that a pastor is not all so important.

Jesusis, mentioned the Holy Spirit, but only in passing and not as a basis for trusting a pastor. This is a good thing too, because as I have seen, nearly everyone says, "The Holy Spirit is leading me" both liberal and conservative, mormon, Jehovah's witness, Catholic and Orthodox, and everything in between. It seems almost impossible, taking at face value, to know who has the Holy Spirit, unless we say, "Well if they are saying something that is supported by Scripture, then the Holy Spirit is guiding them" But this is not saying the Holy Spirit is guiding them, it is saying that Scripture is guiding them and perhaps the Holy Spirit is helping them understand Scripture, though we cannot be sure, and it could simply be good judgment.

msnchris70, who is not related to me, has stated that this is part of the reason that he went to the Catholic Church, and he asserted that the RCC is the only valid option. I would argue that Sola Scripture could be the answer, and we are simply not understanding it correctly, or the Orthodox Church could be correct. It does seem the early fathers believed that the keys and the ability to bind and lose were interchangeable and possessed by all Bishops.

Online4Him »

Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:43 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

“That is why I left being a former Calvinist/Baptist minister of twenty years to become Catholic.”

That is interesting to say the least; however, it seems that you have traded in the gospel for a system that continues to teach extra-biblical dogmas that neither Christ nor his apostles taught. You claim that Peter was the rock but scripture categorically proclaims that Jesus Christ is the rock on which the church would be built-

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed –Romans 9:23.

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ – 1Corinthians 10:4.

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed – 1Peter 2:8

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; - Ephesians 2:20.

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body – Ephesians 5:23.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence – Colossians 1:18.

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”-1Timothy 2:5.

So, your claim that Rome is the only way is a fallacy. You say – “if you stay outside the Catholic Church then you are saying openly that the Catholic Church is apostate. . .” I have no qualms with saying that Rome is an apostate system which has a history of subverting liberty wherever they have found themselves to be in the majority.

Finally, Cardinal Henry Newman, a former Anglican Priest; he is one of many who adopted and promoted the false view of “Futurism” which was invented to give an alternative perspective on eschatology. This new dogma was passed down by Francisco Ribera, Robert Bellarmine, Dr. Samuel Roffey Maitland, James H. Todd, JOHN HENRY NEWMAN, Edward Irving, John Nelson Darby, Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, Hal Lindsey, and is currently being promoted by Time La Haye and Jerry Jenkins through the “Left Behind Series”. I do not believe Newman to be a credible witness. By the way, the first century Church was not Catholic as you claim.

msnchris70 »

Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:22 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 7

Authority? That is so funny. That is why I left being a former Calvinist/Baptist minister of twenty years to become Catholic. I was an outright anti-Catholic. Authority is not the Bible. The Bible is Authoritative for sure, because it is the Word of God. But don't forget God gave His Authority to men. In the old testament we see how God gave his special authority to Moses, Jacob, Isaiah and David. IN the New Testament, Jesus gave special primacy of authority to Simon Peter and that God's Church would be built on Peter and gave Peter the Keys. Jesus also gave special authority to the other Apostles to bind in lose and forgiving sins in His name.

What is missing in todays Protestant and Evangelical Churches is any sense of authority. How can a pastor claim any authority when we are all led by the Holy Spirit in to all Truth? Or maybe Jesus was just talking to Peter when he said this and not a gift given to all man kind. Jesus also promised that he would be with his church always and that the gates of hell would never prevail against it. To be a Protestant means to call Jesus a liar, because if you stay outside the Catholic Church then you are saying openly that the Catholic Church is apostate and then Jesus would be a liar. Peter is the Rock on which the Church was built and has been for 2000 years.

"To be steeped in History, is to cease to be Protestant." Cardinal Henry Newman former Anglican Priest who tried to prove Catholicism false and converted at the end of his research. If you read the fathers of the Church of the first 400-500 years you will find it was Catholic.

Online4Him »

Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:01 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

The "suggestive and not declarative" approach well defines most liberal Protestant preaching, but I think it also explains the decline of those churches and denominations. The earlier loss of confidence in the authority of the Bible inevitably leads to a declining authority of the pulpit.

Well said! Textual Criticism/Biblical Criticism are at the heart of liberal Protestantism and all other false movements. The continual battle for truth continues!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRSKU9_7BJQ

Chriss333,

I am more likely to tell someone to go to a biblical scholar, or read several commentaries. If I do recommend going to their pastor, I always qualify it by saying, "so long as they have a good faith" or something of this nature. It is almost scary what many pastors are saying.

I agree; "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety - Proverbs 11:14. Seeking several well known commentary references along with biblically sound persons will be advantageous for those searching for an answer.

servent »

Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:12 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

I was going to comment along the same lines as canadianchrisitan. Every Chrisitan has a responsiblity to study God's word to show themselves approved. We have responsibilities to discern the truth from God's word through the Holy Spirit. If your preacher/pastor is not preaching God's word exigetically then run. Remember scripture interepts scripture and doctrine can't be based on one verse.

canadianchristian »

Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Chris333,

You raise some good points, we brethren must be very careful as to who we listen to. We should alway's pray for wisdom and discernment to let THE HOLY SPIRIT lead us into GOD'S truth. I've said this before and I'll say it again- review everything you hear and are told and compare it to scripture for accuracy and truthfullness. Study the WORD daily and think on these things. I believe we are in the last day's and it is vitally important not to be led astray, it is with much sadness that some pastor's are deceived by the enemy and drag unsuspecting brethren down with them. Be diligent !! IN JESUS NAME

Chris333 »

Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:52 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

Interesting article. However I wonder if we risk destroying the position of pastor in asserting this? For instance if a pastor only derives authority from the Bible, then the pastor is altogether only helpful, if he preaches the correct interpretation of the Bible, and if he is more intelligent than we are. When I go to church, I often find myself questioning, or even outrightly disagreeing with what the pastor is saying. Sometimes I feel as though I am learning something new and important, but I cannot help but think that it would be more beneficial, if I only read a good commentary, or Bible study with comparative notes.

Indeed, in real life I am sometimes afraid to tell people to go to their pastor if they need help on some difficult issue, due to the fact that often we just cannot trust that the pastor will have the right view of the Bible, God, or doctrine. I am more likely to tell someone to go to a biblical scholar, or read several commentaries. If I do recommend going to their pastor, I always qualify it by saying, "so long as they have a good faith" or something of this nature. It is almost scary what many pastors are saying. Any ideas?