Updated 08:10 pm.EST, Mon November 23, 2009

Church|Tue, Apr. 22 2008 08:52 AM EDT

Evangelicals Give Mixed Reactions to Pope's Visit

By Michelle A. Vu|Christian Post Reporter

WASHINGTON – Evangelical leaders expressed mixed reactions to Pope Benedict XVI’s first U.S. visit, which ranged from underscoring similar values to highlighting the divide between Catholics and Protestants.

The Rev. Richard Cizik, vice president for governmental affairs of the National Association of Evangelicals, drew attention to similarities between the pope’s view on environmentalism and embryonic stem cell research and the view of some within the evangelical community.

The pope during his U.N. speech last week argued that environmental protection is a moral obligation, and urged global leaders to do more to preserve God’s creation, according to National Geographic News.

“Relating the Gospel of Jesus Christ to questions of science and the doctrine of Creation, for example, as well as to issues such as stems cells, is critical for evangelicals,” NAE’s Cizik reflected to The Christian Post on Saturday.

“Pope Benedict’s statement about ‘rediscovering the authentic image of creation’ are helpful and reflect our own evangelical ‘creation care’ movement’s effort to take responsibility for the world that God created and love,” noted the man who has become the face of the growing green evangelical movement.

Under Benedict, the Vatican became the world’s only sovereign state that is carbon-neutral – meaning that all greenhouse gas emissions from the Holy See are offset with renewable energy or carbon credits. Last summer, solar panels were installed on the roof of the city’s buildings.

As a result of his efforts, Benedict has been dubbed by some as the “green pope.”

Besides Creation Care, Cizik also found commonality with the pope on what he described as a possible “veiled reference” to embryonic stem cell research.

The pope said in his U.N. speech that protecting life on earth should never require a choice to be made between science and ethics, but “rather it is a question of adopting a scientific method that is truly respectful of ethical imperatives,” according to the New York Times.

Cizik said that if the pope’s comment referred to his opposition to embryonic stem cell research – which the Vatican has previously been openly opposed to – then evangelicals “would find agreement with Catholics” on this issue.

Opponents of the research method argue that the human embryo is equal to a human being and the destruction of the embryo to extract the stem cells is equivalent to abortion.

But while Cizik focused on commonalities between evangelicals and Catholics, others chose to remind Americans of the divide between Catholicism and Protestantism during the historic visit of the first pope to visit the White House in nearly 30 years.

Prominent theologian Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, reminded people that the pope is a staunch defender of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, and that it is not likely that evangelical Christians and the Catholic Church will bridge differences.

In particular, Mohler pointed to Benedict’s speech at Regensburg, Germany, in 2006; his baptism of a prominent Muslim convert; and the Vatican’s release of the document reasserting that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church as examples that the pope is not “primarily concerned with ecumenical relations.”

“The Roman Catholic Church believes that evangelicals are in spiritual danger for obstinately and disobediently excluding ourselves from submission to its universal claims and its papacy,” the well-known theologian wrote.

Meanwhile, he added, “Evangelicals are concerned that Catholics are in spiritual danger for their submission to these very claims.”

“We both understand what is at stake,” Mohler wrote.

Benedict, who ended his U.S. visit Sunday, concluded his six-day trip with a Mass in Yankee Stadium in New York before a crowd of 60,000 people, and a visit to the Ground Zero site.

At Ground Zero, the pope knelt in silent prayer for peace.

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  • Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    scitsonga,

    Granted. But I do not believe that the Bible is the only piece of evidence for the Christian faith. I believe there are two lines of approaching knowledge of God, both of which are found in Revelation.

    1)Objective evidence: This falls in the category of the Bible as attested to by historical/archaeological discoveries, teleological argument, cosmological argument, and perhaps a moral argument (I find it strong, others not so much).

    2) Subjective evidence: This would include personal experience of God, answered prayers, miracles, a feeling of completeness and peace, etc. I believe this line of evidence is much more powerful, but it is often limited to only the person who experiences it. I could tell you of different miracles that have happened in my life which attest to the glory and truth of God, but if you cannot see them, then I don't know how much benefit it can be for you (unless you trust me, but I see no reason why you should, as we do not know each other save for sparse conversations here)

    Of course, also included in the Subjective evidence would be a personal relationship with God which can often be found in Scriptures, thus the Bible fits under both categories, depending upon how one approaches it.

    You say you are agnostic, as I have gathered because you believe the evidence to be lacking in support of either God, or any specific view of God. I would probably be agnostic too, if it were not for my experience with God, if you don't mind, I will pray for you that you can have that affirmation in your life as well and be able to believe.

    God Bless,

    Chris

  • Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:39 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    THE CATHOLIC CHURCH is a Visible Church --a society existing among men and instituted by God, and worshipping Him with external observances which have been developed into a complex ritual. (The Visible Church by Rev. John F. Sullivan, D.D.)

    Let us reason out of the scriptures, as was Paul’s manner (Acts 17:2).

    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

    But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2Co 11:3

  • Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:50 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Jesus’ resurrection was also prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures – Psalms 16:10 – his victorious resurrection over sin and death gives all those who follow him a living hope for the inevitable restoration of all things.

    I don’t know if any of this answered your question but it was intended to give a brief summary of what Jesus’ life and his death means to Christians.

  • Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:50 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Scitsonga,

    How is it Jesus paid an infinite price, what does that mean?

    What I am sharing may sound redundant, maybe not, but if you would allow me to back track a little and consider the “claims” that Jesus himself made; for example he claimed to be the “Messiah”- the (“Anointed One”) - the coming Savior/Prophet/King who was prophesied throughout the Hebrew Scriptures to come and redeem mankind from sin and its penalty. The Prophet Daniel refers to him as the “Son of man” – another title which he used to describe the coming messiah – Daniel 7:13, 14. Jesus repeatedly utilized this title “Son of Man” for himself throughout his ministry– see Mark 14:61-64; my point is this: if Jesus is who he claimed to be (God in the flesh) - well then, everyone must decide for themselves how to respond.

    With that said, within the Christian worldview mankind was created in the image of God; not only in his physical form but was also made to reflect his holy character. As you well know, the written account states that mankind separated himself from God through disobedience and through disobedience sin which is biblically described as “the transgression of the law” – 1John 3:4 - brought death upon all mankind - “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” – Romans 3:23.

    This death entails a total separation from God himself; however, through Jesus Christ we have been reconciled to God through faith in his Son – “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him” – Romans 5:9. “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous – Romans 5:19. References to God’s holy character and law as recorded in the scriptures should not surprise us given the fact that our physical world is governed by physical laws.

    Now to finally answer your question: “the infinite price for our sins” – perhaps the word “infinite” is what you are wrestling with; this statement merely describes the immeasurably great sacrifice that was paid to redeem mankind. The New Testament is really a fulfillment of the prophetic account of what the Old Testament writers pointed to – Jesus Christ being the “lamb of God” who takes away the sins of the world – John 1:29. The old sacrificial system that is recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) all pointed to Jesus Christ.

  • Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Online4him "Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1, 14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins"

    perhaps i'm missing something here. How is it Jesus paid an infinite price, what does that mean? If he died for our sins. Why is that such a sacrifice if he then rose from the dead and is still alive. Am i missing something on that?

  • Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Chris333, As an agnostic I would say that I am unencumbered with any particular belief in the nature of God or whether such an entity even exists, and as such, I do take the view that one's religion is a personal thing and are entitled to that view. You have reasons to think that your beliefs are the correct ones, perhaps they are, or perhaps not. Others, say Muslims and Jews, have their reasons for their beliefs. My position is I have no way of knowing, and I say live and let live. As far as I know, the Bible is really the only "evidence" that Christians have for their beliefs. I dont place much stock in a single source of information. I would agree with you that if there exists a God, then ones interpretation of the nature of God doesn't matter, then God is what God is. Unless I have additional information, I really have no reason to believe one way or the other. To me, it makes little sense that God punishes those that do not believe, or have the wrong ideas. I have my reasons for being an agnostic, if as my Christian friends tell me, God gave us free will and a mind to think for our selves, then I find it difficult to believe I will be punished for that. I can see though the possibility that if there is a God, that God might be using ones existence on earth to weed out those whom God believes to be unworthy of eternal life in some place called heaven and that perhaps most human would flunk the test. I'm sure I would not make it, I dont have a problem with that. The idea of the eternal torture treatment for those that flunk the test is beyond logic and would be antithetical to the claim Christians make of their religion and God- love and compassion.

  • Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:54 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

    Evangelicals Give Mixed Reactions to Pope's Visit....seriously who cares what they think of the visit? I mean why are they so focused on what the leadership of the Catholic Church is doing? wait , for a moment I forgot the incredible importance of the Catholic Church for Christianity...ok please disregard my question.

  • Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:36 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    In some of my studies in regards to catholic teaching it seems that some pagan beliefs have found their way into it. They have just been "Christianized." Pattiepie seems to be on top of things. Lidia my question to you is why have you become Catholic? What do you think of Protestants in general such as myself? Obviously you don't know all about me but we are engaging in debate on a very serious matter. It just seems that Scripture is being misinterpreted by someone.

  • Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:07 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    The very idea of Purgatory, and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was SUFFICIENT to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1, 14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2).

  • Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:21 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    "The majority of Americans have a belief in a Creator, but realize everyone has their own interpretation of religion and what the nature of the Creator might be"

    Poppycock! (Just wanted to say that, no offense scitsonga) It is all fine and good to say that many Americans are becoming more and more relativistic in their thinking, but it is not a good thing. There is either God or no God, and if there is God, then that God is only a certain way. Our interpretation of that is virtually worthless, I can interpret all I want, but if there is no God, then I can not interpret Him into existence. The same applies to the other side, if there is God, then interpret as hard as you desire, but God won't go away.

    It is good that we have a separation of Church and State, otherwise the wrong interpretation may win out, and so that people are not forced to accept the right interpretation and their belief can be spontaneous and genuine.

  • Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:56 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    The influence of the Christian Right is fortunately in decline in the US. Americans have become weary of the influence of the Christian Right for the last 25 years or so. The vast majority of Americans want religion and government separate as the First Amendment requires. The majority of Americans have a belief in a Creator, but realize everyone has their own interpretation of religion and what the nature of the Creator might be, so they understand how important it is too leave religion out of government, the courts and public education. Students of history also know how important it is to keep religion out of government in order to avoid the religious wars that Europe experienced centuries past. Reading the difference of opinions on these posts between Protestants and Catholics supports the thesis of why it is imperative that we Americans maintain the wall of separation between the state and church that President Jefferson described.

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Hey thelordismylight

    2 Cor 5:8 - "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

    No purgatory. You die as Christian you go straight to heaven.

    Purgatory comes from pagan religions. A lot of Catholic stuff comes from pagan religions. Stop trying to make scripture fit pagan ideas. That is a sin to do that.

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:22 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    The bible, not a made up doctrine, the bible says we will be save thru fire. How do you, wilderness, interpret 1 Corinthians 3:15?
    Again, Please clarify “one who is not walking in the light””. If you mean someone who has turned away from God, there is no purging, no second chance…just Hell.

    When quoting the Saints, please remember that everything that God says and does is infallible. Yet, if God gives someone, even a Saint, a true private revelation, there can be errors on two counts. First, the one receiving the revelation may have misunderstood. Second, the one writing down the revelation may make an error. Sacred Scripture is immune from both of these types of errors, but private revelation is not.

    Therefore, if one finds small discrepancies, or awkwardly worded statements, or things that are unclear, one cannot thereby conclude that the claim to private revelation is false. True private revelation is not the same as infallible Sacred Scripture.

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:10 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    St. Catharine of Genoa on Purgatory

    The souls in Purgatory are entirely conformed to the will of God; therefore, they correspond with His goodness, are contented with all that He ordains, and are entirely purified from the guilt of their sins. They are pure from sins because they have in this life abhorred them and confessed them with true contrition; and for this reason God remits their guilt, so that only the stains of sin remain, and these must be devoured by the fire. (Purgatory: Doctrinal, Historical and Poetical, by Mrs. J. Sadlier. Imprimatur: Michael Augustine, Archbishop of New York. Copyright, 1886. K. A. Sadlier.)

    Now, let us reason out of the scriptures, even as it was Paul’s manner (Acts 17:2).

    “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood…” (Rev 1:5).

    “But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ” (Eph 2:13).

    As one can see, purgatory implies that the blood of Christ is insufficient in its washing away of sin and thus, tormenting fire is needed to complete the action. Any doctrine that diminishes the blood of Christ, which is perfect in not only washing away sin, but any stain also, is dangerously wrong. We must never treat the blood of the covenant as an unholy thing. How appalling is such a thought! Please, prayerfully and humbly read the scriptures above.

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I'll keep checking in!

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I have a lot more questions but I have to leave at the moment. I would like to continue our conversation though. This goes to both lidiapurple and thelordismylight. Hopefully we can remain in contact.

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Leap frog,
    It doesn't have to be either/or. Of course you can pray straight to God. but the intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because the Bible also says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Why would I want to have the saints pray for me? The Bible is quite clear that we can go straight to God without a "middle man."

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    leapfrog-

    We do not pray to saints. We ask them to pray for us. Praying to saints would defy the first commandment, and we do not want to do that. However Protestants seem to have no qualms about defying the third.

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Amen, lidia.

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:34 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Catholics believe that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. The Bible reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

    You can’t say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. The cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).

    Wilderness wrote: In addition, to offer someone (who is not walking in the light) the possibility to atone for his or her sins is dangerously wrong. Please clarify “one who is not walking in the light””. If you mean someone who has turned away from God, there is no purging, no second chance…just Hell.

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Pattie-

    Purgatory IS in the bible. It says that Jesus will be judge of our souls. In order to be a judge, He would have to be just. To be Just means to bring justice. Justice means giving punishment to those who deserve it, and rewarding those that did good. Otherwise it is not Justice...

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    St. Catharine of Genoa on Purgatory

    “But I see that the divine essence is so pure purer than the imagination can conceive that the soul, finding in itself the slightest imperfection, would rather cast itself into a thousand hells than appear, so stained, in the presence of the divine majesty. Knowing, then, that Purgatory was intended for her cleansing, she throws herself therein, and finds there that great mercy, the removal of her stains.” (Purgatory: Doctrinal, Historical and Poetical, by Mrs. J. Sadlier. Imprimatur: Michael Augustine, Archbishop of New York. Copyright, 1886. K. A. Sadlier.)

    Examine the belief of purgatory torment used as cleansing with the following verses:

    “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness…And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:” (1Jn 1:9, 2:1).

    As one can see, a belief in purgatory diminishes the cross of Christ, His precious blood, and His power as our advocate! Read the verses again, prayerfully. One’s cleansing does not take place in a place called “purgatory.”

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    St. Catharine of Genoa on Purgatory

    “…she comprehended in her own soul the condition of the souls of the faithful in Purgatory, where they are purified from the rust and stain of sins, from which they have not been cleansed in this world.” (Purgatory: Doctrinal, Historical and Poetical, by Mrs. J. Sadlier. Imprimatur: Michael Augustine, Archbishop of New York. Copyright, 1886. K. A. Sadlier.)

    A belief in purgatory proclaims that the blood of Christ and His “It is finished” work on the cross is insufficient for the born-again believer and is limited in cleansing him or her from sin. Such a belief is contrary to the sound doctrine that we find in 1Jn 1:7: “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin” (1Jn 1:7).

    In addition, to offer someone (who is not walking in the light) the possibility to atone for his or her sins is dangerously wrong.

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    One at a time, Leapfrog, one at a time! Let’s start with purgatory.
    First of all, Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) Through repentance we have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven. We has been forgiven and our soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. We need to be cleansed completely.
    Purgatory is that cleansing experience, a purging, a purification, for those who die in God’s grace, but who still have many impurities in us, like venial sins, or the attachment to sinful ways.
    2 Thessalonians 2:13, declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is therefore not optional, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement.
    Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." There are very few of us who die in a completely holy, sanctified state. Something has to happened to us between death and our entrance into Heaven that will finish our sanctification.
    Matt. 12:32, Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins.
    1 Cor 3:15. Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire". This loss, this penalty, can’t refer to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering in Heaven.
    " Luke 12:59 "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” Between death and Heaven soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin
    Are you looking for the word “purgatory” in the bible? If so, it won’t be found. Just as the Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either. Yet those doctrines are clearly taught ,just as purgatory is.

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Ok lidiapurple I'll take the bait.

    How about purgatory? The Papacy. Going to confessional. Praying to the "saints."

  • Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:00 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    " RCC teaching is not in the Bible.'
    Pattiepie,
    All Catholic teaching is scriptually grounded. Let's tackle one issue at a time. Please list one Catholic teaching that is not in the bible.

  • Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:31 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    thelordismylight - RCC teaching is not in the Bible.

  • Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:11 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 3

    Pattie-

    "When you do wrong you have to go to a priest and tell them all about it." Not true. So not true. You only need a priest to forgive the really really bad stuff. A simple Act of Contrition will do for misdemeanors.

    "Then for punishment, you have to say a whole bunch of hail marys and the Lord's prayer. You have to do it a whole lot" Also not true. It is not a punishment, it is an offering and plea for forgiveness and spiritual cleansing. I do not consider it a punishment. I do not dislike praying. And we do NOT have to do it "a whole lot" it really depends upon what you did. Please do not make ignorant inferences and unsupported conclusions in the future.

    "I guess you are hoping God will hear you or something." He does... you fool. No matter what you pray God hears it. This is exactly the type of thing I would expect a protty to say.

    "Jesus told us not to pray this way" If you are talking about the "vain repetitions" speech Jesus gave... you are way off... a vain repetition is a repetition with no meaning, pagan chants to false gods.

    "Now if I do wrong, all I have to do is ask God in Jesus' name to forgive me." Oh so if you kill 50,000 people and then say a short prayer of thanks that makes it all better? Mhm...

    "I have a personal relationship with God. You don't. You have a relationship with your priest not God cus the priest has replaced God in your life." WRONG! Oh my Gosh... of all the ignorant things you have said THAT is the most ignorant! You think I don't pray to God?! Every morning when I wake up, I say a prayer of thanks for my life. I do the same when I go to bed. Whenever I see something beautiful in nature I thank God for the wonders he has given us. I PRAY TO GOD! Of all the obnoxious... unsupported... ignorant things you have said, that takes the cake.

  • Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:02 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 3

    First off, Jesus said... "This is my body" and "This is my blood" so whether or not it is in remembrance of him, it is still Him... Secondly... in John... 15:16 I believe it was... "I have chosen you and ORDAINED you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit..." (SERVICE) "And that your fruit should remain..." This can be interpreted in many ways, it can be interpreted (as Paul ALSO says) that you HOLD ONTO YOUR TRADITION. It can also be interpreted that the true followers of Christ stay with the Church.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    The rituals and celebrations are more of a reminder, and symbol. They arent requrements to gain salvation, remeber Jesus said: do this in "Remembrance" of me, they are traditions. Did the Repentent theif have a baptizm while he hung next to Jesus? Did he have comunuion, and did he say hail mary? no, He only admitted that he deserverd to be condemned but that Jesus was innocent, and that he belived Jesus was lord. And Jesus said on that day they would dine in paradise. Looks like Christians existed before the catholic church. and all they needed was faith and repentence....

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    These religious debates are about the same ones they were having a thousand years ago in Europe, the Europeans fought countless wars over religion before thay finally figured out that keeping religion out of government would stop the religious wars.. European religious wars is one of the big reasons the founding fathers of the US constitution inserted into the first amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus to keep religion out of government.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    My religion is correct, yours is incorrect, yada yada yada. As an agnostic, there sure is a lot of rediculous postings here as to whos religious beliefs are the correct ones, very illogical and silly stuff.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:01 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    thelordismylight

    Jesus was batizo, made fully wet, by John the Baptist in the Jordan River. Jesus is our example.

    RCC is wrong when they just sprinkle. They don't follow Bible teaching.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:54 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    thelordismylight

    You have a religion. It is full of ritual. When you do wrong you have to go to a priest and tell him all about it. Then for your punishment you have to say a whole bunch or hail marys and the Lord's prayer. You have to do it a whole lot. I guess you are hoping God will hear you or something. Jesus said it is wrong to pray that way.

    Now if I do wrong all I have to do is ask God personally in Jesus'name to forgive me. He does because His word says He does when we ask. (1 John 1:9) I have a personal relationship with God. You don't. You have a relationship with your priest not God cus your priest has replaced God in your life.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    YOUR church has the false teachings... my church hasn't once edited the bible. I have to go now, I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    The greek translation did not come out right, but it is not baptizo...

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Pattie-

    You are just ignorant. My bible was around before yours. Martin Luther changed the words. The Greek version does not use baptizo. I think you are lying, because the Greek translation is Βαφτίστε ... :P YOUR bible is edited every year. It has no authority. Our bible has remained unchanged since it was made.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You are wrong thelordismylight. You can try to say you are right with people but with God you aren't going to get away with it.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You are wrong about baptism thelordismylight. The greek word for baptized is baptizo which means to make whelmed (ie, fully wet) in the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to the KJV Bible. Your Bible probably changed the word to fit your church's false teaching.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Pattie-

    I do all the things you ask and then some... if Jesus attoned for ALL of our sins, then I wouldn't go to hell ANYWAY... your religion completely contradicts itself.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:36 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Jesus paid for all your sins and rose from the dead. if you believe this, and you accept what Jesus did for you, and want Jesus to save you then you ask Jesus in prayer to forgive you of your sins, come live in your heart, and be the boss of your life. If you do this then Jesus come lives in your heart. The Holy Ghost changes your life. He gives you God's nature. You have to chose to live for God and do those things He wants you to do. If you obey, then you wills go to heaven. If you rebel then you will end up in hell cus you didn't obey Jesus. You have to obey Jesus if you want to go to heaven. One way you now you are saved is if Jesus changed your life after you asked Him to save you. If you remained the same ole person then He didn't save you.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:36 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Pattie-

    I do not live like the devil. And there is no Greek or Latin translation for dunk, immerse, submerge, or put underwater... they used the word meaning "expose to" which can mean sprinkling. And yes, jesus DOES have good works that he wants us to do. I DO believe in Jesus, I DO believe that he rose from the dead! What do you think I am?! Catholics are christians! We believe in christ! We were the FIRST christians...

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    thelordismylight

    God's Word says that Jesus is the author of eternal life to all who obey Him. You can't lives like you want. You have to make Jesus boss of your life. You have to do what He wants you to do.

    Jesus says to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That means belive that Jesus paid for your sins and rose from the dead. Jesus wants you to be water baptized. That means dunked completely under water. Then Jesus says we have to live righteously. Jesus says He has good works that He wants us to do. Jesus says we have to forgive people who do us wrong.

    You can't live like the devil and expect to go to Heaven. If you live like the devil then you have to repent or you will perish.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Pattie-

    It isn't the way you talk. It is what you say:

    "Heathan pagan- that is what you are" obviously a little child's retort.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Pattie-

    You are wrong. The bible says "Nothing impure may enter heaven" (impure or unpure) So... if I did ANYTHING wrong... then I would automatically go to hell? If so then the Protestant religion completely contradicts itself because, it teaches that jesus' death was all-atoning and we don't have to do anything to go to heaven.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I am not a little girl. I just don't talk real good.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    WAIT! Pattie... don't protties believe that Jesus' death was all-atoning?! Doesn't that mean that I will go to heaven no matter what?

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:19 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Purgatory - no such place thelordismylight. That place comes from pagan religions. The Macabees took that teaching and puts it in their writings. Jesus never talks about purgatory. it is either heaven or hell. Nothing in between.

  • Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Pattie-

    You are obviously a little girl. You shouldn't be talking to strangers, especially online.

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