As anyone who has read my new book, The Faith, knows, I have a deep passion to help the Church know what it believes, why it believes it, and how to defend the basic truths all Christians have held since the Apostolic era.
In it, I have talked a lot about the early Church, when the apostles’ teaching was fresh in the minds of church leaders. Christians stood together in defense of what they believed, against the open hostility—and sometimes the lion’s den—of the Roman Empire.
The Church, I think, is in a similar situation today. We are not being fed to the lions in the Coliseum, but we do face very real threats—from militant atheism to the homicidal maniacs of Islamo-fascism. So we need unity if we are going to defend and advance the kingdom of God.
That is why I am so excited about a new book titled Between Two Worlds. It is the moving autobiography of one of my closest friends, Mike Timmis. I was honored to write the book’s foreword.
Growing up in a tough section of Detroit, Mike was raised a devout Catholic. But it was not until 1983, at a dinner party where some evangelicals gave their testimonies, that Mike became what he calls himself today: a Christ-follower. Since then, Mike, a successful businessman, has gone all over the world, sharing the Gospel and setting up projects to help the poor. He is one of the most enthusiastic soul-winners I know. He succeeded me some years ago as the Chairman of the Board of Prison Fellowship International, and during his tenure, the international ministry has doubled in size, with ministries in 113 nations.
But not only has Mike done a good job spreading the Gospel, he stands as a witness to the efforts to help bring the Church together. This year is the 15th anniversary of a group that Fr. Richard Neuhaus and I started called Evangelicals and Catholics Together. Our goal is not to deny our differences, but to understand what we both believe in common and to recognize one another as brothers and sisters in Christ. In the process, we have discovered areas of agreement we never knew we had.
As I recounted in my book The Faith, we produced a document titled “The Gift of Salvation,” in which we outline how we all agree on what the Protestant Reformers called sola fide—justification by faith alone. It is a remarkable document showing remarkable progress. But Mike Timmis and I stand together, living it. While each of us stands firm in our own faith tradition, we have learned much from each other, despite our different confessions.
As Mike puts it in Between Two Worlds, “We do not work for unity; we work to end and erase disunity. Unity is of God; disunity is of man. In matters of doctrine and practice of conscience, our guide should be this traditional saying: ‘In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. But in all things, love.’”
Many of you may have doubts and questions about what I am saying here. That is okay. I invite you to visit our website, BreakPoint.org, to read more about Evangelicals and Catholics Together, and I urge you to order a copy of Mike Timmis’s gripping book, Between Two Worlds.
To learn more about the traditions of our fellow believers is not to abandon our own view. I am a Baptist; I will die that way. Rather, it is the key to understanding how much we really have in common, and how much we need one another to defend against those who want to destroy all Christians, regardless of denomination.
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From BreakPoint®, April 24, 2008, Copyright 2008, Prison Fellowship Ministries. Reprinted with the permission of Prison Fellowship Ministries. All rights reserved. May not be reproduced or distributed without the express written permission of Prison Fellowship Ministries. “BreakPoint®” and “Prison Fellowship Ministries®” are registered trademarks of Prison Fellowship
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Good point Online4Him,
What's more, can we really say that something is a "non-essential"? Are some parts of the Bible negotiable? Could we say, "Lets sit down and talk about what is essential, and then either throw away the rest or ignore it"?
I happen to believe that it is important to have right knowledge on more than just "Who Christ was"
“We do not work for unity; we work to end and erase disunity. Unity is of God; disunity is of man. In matters of doctrine and practice of conscience, our guide should be this traditional saying: ‘In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. But in all things, love.’”
Interesting article; however, this language is very ambiguous in that it speaks of not working towards unity but working to end disunity. What does that mean? All Christians have always stood against militant atheism and homicidal maniacs of Islamo-facism; my question is, where is the “Witness to Truth” – how can there be unity when the essentials and nonessentials have not even been clearly defined?
Steiner (Part 1)
"Just because Jesus does not say these are symbols, does not mean that they are not."
Certainly, however it is not clear in this case. Paul, for instance, says that those who drink the Blood of Christ in an unworthy manner are worthy of condemnation, and some even died because of it. Even if we do not say that the wine is the actual Blood of Jesus, I have never seen someone die after mistaking a symbol. Something about the Holy Communion is more than symbolic.
" if you truly tried to be reasonable, you would see that sin is directed both at men and God. "
That is what I said.
"From Gods perspective, sinning ultimately is an infraction against God...Those that are repentant and believe that Jesus has ransomed from spiritual death are forgiven. No work can be done here by the sinner to save himself, for to save himself would simply mean to accept death as the law requires...But Christ has done that in His place...There is nothing more to do other than repentance and avoidance of purposely sinning. "
This is the Catholic position.
"the RCC wishes to tie and confuse their people into the mystical..so they feed them their man made rubbish/ traditions...like praying with the dead, or eating the flesh and blood of Christ, or speaking to them in Latin...or teaching them to walk 100s of meters with their tongues to the ground licking the road traveled..."
The idea that the Communion was the actual Body and Blood of Christ is consistent throughout all of Church history, and it has not been demonstrated that it is clearly a tradition of men.
Praying for the dead is at the most worthless and at best a good thing to do, it would not be sinning and the Bible never clearly says it is wrong.
Licking the ground sounds like some local crazy person made it up, in any case I am certain it is not part of the official Catholic doctrine. Some Protestants have said crazier things, but we don't blame all Protestants.
Steiner (Part 2)
"That is because the Protestants are not arrogant enough to claim what is not true. They humbly hold that the right to forgive or not to forgive...is not a right at all, but a calling to preach the Gospel so that those that Hear it may be saved. Hence, it is a call to SAVE... through the power of the Gospel."
You have inserted your bias into this passage, it does not say, "And Jesus told them that whatever sins they forgave by preaching his redemption would be forgiven" Also, if this is the case, then Jesus seems to have given them the liberty to withold preaching the Gospel so as not to allow certain people to have their sins forgiven.
The actual passage is John 20:21-23 "Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.""
No mention of preaching the Gospel there, and He seems to have given them the ability to withhold forgiveness... strange.
"a long list of arrogant popes that have systematically called for murder of heretics"
This would have definitely have been wrong, and the RCC is against it today, however the RCC does not say that a Pope is always infallible, only speaking ex cathedra.
"what a load of rubbish that you believe."
I am not Catholic, I do not believe all of these things, I am only saying that if we disagree with Catholics then we must debate fairly and not attach misrepresentations to their belief system.
On purgatory:
Jesus will give justice, this not only means rewarding the good, it also means punishing those who deserve it. A man who was a boozer, womanizer, and sinner cannot walk thru the pearly gates alongside a man who tried hard through all his life to be a good Christian.
It's sad that an article that highlights Catholics and Evangelicals working together for good would be put down by people who only want to focus on negative diatribes. Great article Mr. Colson and keep them coming.
Chris: Actually, the Catholic Church believes that only by faith in Christ can one be saved, but that part of that faith is doing good things and repenting of sins.
Chris...when the Roman Catholic Church still confuses mans works with salvation...it impinges on Christs sacrifice, and the significance of Christ. In fact it questions the Gospel...and it goes the islamic way. This is not unity under God, but a political/religious unity under Man.
God shall judge such a system, for it rejects the only way to salvation, much like the islamic one.
Chris: This is a gross misrepresentation of Catholic beliefs. ...
It is gross misrepresentation to call systematic attacks over 100s of years..abuses. That is gross misrepresentation? you ought to know better. The goal of penance? again a load of rubbish. It is a load of rubbish because if someone has accepted Christs sacrifice, then they are born again. They are a new creature in Christ. If they sin, they must turn to Christ, for HE is our High Priest. Read 1John.
And instead of feeding them bread that mystically is supposed to turn to Jesus as it makes its way down their throats, they ought to make certain that one is fed the Word of God...so that the Hearing of the Word will build faith as the HOly Spirit moves them to love and obedience.
Yet, as usual, the RCC wishes to tie and confuse their people into the mystical..so they feed them their man made rubbish/ traditions...like praying with the dead, or eating the flesh and blood of Christ, or speaking to them in Latin...or teaching them to walk 100s of meters with their tongues to the ground licking the road traveled...
And then they wonder why in Rome satanic possessions, cannibalism, and what not has increased?!...
Chris: However, at the end of John, Jesus does give His disciples the right to forgive or hold forgiveness for sins, which I have never seen dealt with by a Protestant...
That is because the Protestants are not arrogant enough to claim what is not true. They humbly hold that the right to forgive or not to forgive...is not a right at all, but a calling to preach the Gospel so that those that Hear it may be saved. Hence, it is a call to SAVE... through the power of the Gospel.
This power is the preaching of HIs WORD, which is used by His Spirit to nudge the listener into repentance, and into freedom. By preaching, we bring liberty...we bring His Word that sets men free...
Anything more and it is of the Devil, who in his arrogant wish to be God, he was driven by his arrogance to rebellion ...which is what the RCC does when it preaches its primacyr through Peter and the keys...rubbish...and more rubbish...years and years of rubbish from a long list of arrogant popes that have systematically called for murder of heretics (in order to save them...WHEN JESUS NEVER SENTENCED ANYONE TO DEATH) and PROMISED eternal life, and the remission of sins to those ignoramuses that listened. While, in the meantime always doing its best to keep the Bible from being published into other languages because it would be misinterpreted...what a load of satanic rubbish....to keep them from listening to the Gospel, so they could truly repent.
The absurd claim that the Pope is in the place of Christ...the Holy Father.(sounds like satan trying to take an appellation ascribed only to the ONE to be worshiped) ..what a load of rubbish...there is only one...repeat...one HOLY FATHER, and it is not the pope.
Regarding sins against fellow men: Is it not also a sin against God? Is my killing a child not also a sin against God, who was the creator of that life? If it is, then we do not just need to repent to that person, but to God as well.
What is more, you have said that Jesus Christ cover's our sins, do you mean that He covers only the sins against God (specifically) or both those against God and those against others? I am going to assume that you mean His sacrifice covers all sins.
You have still avoided my assertation that this leads into an absurd extreme where either one can only be sure of his salvation by doing good things, or else all are saved regardless of anything they do.
What I did try to do is clear things up, not obfuscate as the RCC does in order to create a need that is not there, and to force ignorant people to do penance...and what not, as it has done in the past as it used its powers to crush people and governments under its onerous weights, once it confounds them.
Yes, sin is sin...but if you truly tried to be reasonable, you would see that sin is directed both at men and God. From a mens perspective there are laws created by governments to deal with such matters...It is good that these laws show mercy, but they must also be just laws that will address in amending, in paying back the person to whom the misdeed was done.
I used an example like thievery. I pointed out that just because a thief may say that they have believed in Christ does not mean that their obligation to pay their debt to that person is no longer there. It would be unjust, illegal and something the RCC would do, which it has done in the past,
But the thief is obliged to make reparation to whom he has wronged, as he is obliged to make reparation to God (which he cannot). As Christians we must be merciful, we are called to show charity ...but we are also to maintain justice, not just the form. Overall, one is responsible to make reparation of the wrong that he has done...
From Gods perspective, sinning ultimately is an infraction against God...Those that are repentant and believe that Jesus has ransomed from spiritual death are forgiven. No work can be done here by the sinner to save himself, for to save himself would simply mean to accept death as the law requires...But Christ has done that in His place...There is nothing more to do other than repentance and avoidance of purposely sinning. If one continues to sin knowingly...for example, if one continues to murder, to steal etc..than he has forsaken Christ and His sacrifice. Hebrews 6.
Chris,
As for your question about unity between Catholics and Orthodox Churches - it gets better every day, here's the last week:
http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=5066.3340.0.0
http://members4.boardhost.com/acnaus/msg/1209280495.html
http://www.javno.com/en/croatia/clanak.php?id=143921
This year is the 15th anniversary of a group that Fr. Richard Neuhaus and I started called Evangelicals and Catholics Together. It's a beautiful thing when Christian groups work together to accomplish a lot of good in the world. God Bless you in your ministry.
I suppose you are going to call Jesus a blasphemer as well then? Because if I recall He did say, "This is my Body... this is my Blood" Not, "this is a symbol of my Body/Blood" and Paul says, "Those who take the Body of Christ in an unworthy manner bring condemnation on themselves"
We are to chew on His word daily and His Spirit..."
The RCC agrees.
"but the RCC through the years has, like satan, told the masses that it can transform materials..into real bread..."
This is not accurate, the RCC believes that God mystically transforms the materials into the Real Presence.
As I said, the RCC twists what Jesus says so that it can confound people and make them dependent on Its popes and priests...God mystically transforms the materials in the real presence....? what a load of rubbish that you believe.
Just because Jesus does not say these are symbols, does not mean that they are not. Jesus says ...I am the door....is Jesus a door? just because Jesus does not say I am the symbol of the door...then you shall take it that He is a door...
of course, you can also tell me that the RCC can have doors placed inside their parishes so that when they hit their parishioners on their forheads they mystically transform into Christ...but it is still a load of rubbish that you are trying to sell to folks that are willing to believe anything they are told by the RCC.
As regards as to what Jesus really says...as usual it is pointed out in scripture: Notice Jesus also says that He is the bread of life...
no he is not a loaf of bread walking around...that is a load of rubbish...and you ought to know better than to obfuscate. Jesus points out over and over to His desciples that the words that He speaks to them are spirit...John 6:63.
...my food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work...John 4:44
...but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life...John 4:14
...You must be born again...of course the catholic church explains this as a man entering his mothers womb and diving out again...?
Steiner, interesting position, but again, I think you are missing my point, and the Catholic Church's position on several issues.
Regarding sins against fellow men: Is it not also a sin against God? Is my killing a child not also a sin against God, who was the creator of that life? If it is, then we do not just need to repent to that person, but to God as well.
What is more, you have said that Jesus Christ cover's our sins, do you mean that He covers only the sins against God (specifically) or both those against God and those against others? I am going to assume that you mean His sacrifice covers all sins.
You have still avoided my assertation that this leads into an absurd extreme where either one can only be sure of his salvation by doing good things, or else all are saved regardless of anything they do.
"Yet, what the RCC wants to get involved in is the work that is done to make amends to God...a bit like the Islamic Governments that have laws that will carry out death sentences on those that blaspheme their god, whether they are believers are not..."
This is a gross misrepresentation of Catholic beliefs. They do not feel the right to punish non-believers, and even today the means of "punishment" ends at excommunication. (certainly abuses have existed in history, but this is no different that Protestants) The goal of "penance" in the Catholic system is to help a person in his/her walk with God, not arbitrate between God and man. However, at the end of John, Jesus does give His disciples the right to forgive or hold forgiveness for sins, which I have never seen dealt with by a Protestant.
"the RCC begins to obfuscate works, so that it will have power to determine what works one needs to do in order to mitigate the gap between man and God"
Actually, the Catholic Church believes that only by faith in Christ can one be saved, but that part of that faith is doing good things and repenting of sins.
"But like Satan, The RCC wishes you to believe that their mass will turn some bread into Christ while in your mouth...This is blaspheme...and it is of the devil..."
I suppose you are going to call Jesus a blasphemer as well then? Because if I recall He did say, "This is my Body... this is my Blood" Not, "this is a symbol of my Body/Blood" and Paul says, "Those who take the Body of Christ in an unworthy manner bring condemnation on themselves"
We are to chew on His word daily and His Spirit..."
The RCC agrees.
"but the RCC through the years has, like satan, told the masses that it can transform materials..into real bread..."
This is not accurate, the RCC believes that God mystically transforms the materials into the Real Presence.
"but believe what you will, but I wont."
I am not a Catholic, but when one criticizes them, they should use accurate arguments.
Hence, when the Roman Catholic Church still confuses mans works with salvation...it impinges on Christs sacrifice, and the significance of Christ. In fact it questions the Gospel...and it goes the islamic way. This is not unity under God, but a political/religious unity under Man.
God shall judge such a system, for it rejects the only way to salvation, much like the islamic one.
Part 3 of 3
But how can we keep ourselves from falling away from Christ? We are directed to keep the faith by partaking of HIs Word and of His Spirit. Since we are NEWBORNS in Christ, we need to feed on something in order not to die of hunger, and to grow into mature beings. To Satan, who wished to convince Christ of turning stones into bread...Christ responded: Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God...It is His Word and His Spirit that supply life to the new creature...He is the bread of life that must be consumed.
But like Satan, The RCC wishes you to believe that their mass will turn some bread into Christ while in your mouth...This is blaspheme...and it is of the devil...
Because it is plain that it is His Word, His Scriptures and HIs Spirit that we are to feed on...and it is freely available. Where 2 or 3 are gathered in My Name there I am with them...there, there...and not in some piece of bread that the priests gives you...As if Christ would not turn stone into bread...but he would turn bread into spirit?!
We are to chew on His word daily and His Spirit...but the RCC through the years has, like satan, told the masses that it can transform materials..into real bread...
God has given us a brain and a spirit to chew on His word..not the stomach...and so forth...but believe what you will, but I wont.
P2 of 2
Yet, what the RCC wants to get involved in is the work that is done to make amends to God...a bit like the Islamic Governments that have laws that will carry out death sentences on those that blaspheme their god, whether they are believers are not...
The RCC wishes to obfuscate works that I have mentioned above with works to be saved. Can we love God with all of our hearts and minds? NO we cant..we are human and imperfect...so we sin against God...and here the RCC begins to obfuscate works, so that it will have power to determine what works one needs to do in order to mitigate the gap between man and God...Just like the muslims call for 5 prayers a day...etc, etc, and turning towards Mecca...and visiting Mecca once in your lifetime...these are works to mitigate man and God...and they are rubbish, or political means to control man religiously.
Jesus has bridged the gap between man and God once, and for all eternity. if I sin against God, I must repent... and have faith that Jesus has paid, has done the all the work necessary. I believe that Jesus has done this for me, and I repent from my sin and rebellion towards God, but only Jesuss sacrifice has ransomed me...no work of mine added to that of Jesus will save me ...for that would imply that Jesus is not enough...that ultimately, for some at least, Jesus is not necessary...
Yet, this is exactly what the RCC wishes you to not understand. For, like the Islamists, they need to tie people down to their system of works...so that people will have to turn to the Pope, or Priests, or the Church,, and their man made laws to receive forgiveness....when in fact only repentance and faith in Jesus sacrifice is necessary.
P1 of 2
Chris
You misunderstand a very basic Christian concept. Yet, I dont believe that the RCC misunderstands it. The RCC understands it well, but being a religious political system, it is in their interest to obfuscate the matter.
The commandments are divided into 2 categories. Those that deal with man and his relationship with other people and those that deal with mans relationship with God.
In our society(which is based on Christian ethics), when we do wrong towards another person, we are required to make amends. Often, the amends are weighed so that in most cases we pay back our debt in some form...As Christians, we are moved to be merciful but not unjust. Ultimately, if we have committed wrong against another human being the law asks us to do works to repair that wrong in some form or another...except in cases like murder, child abuse...etc. Hence, these works are already covered by just governments, and just laws.
In addition, Christ calls us to be merciful and to do good works, above what the law asks of us, these works are directed at people...these we do even when we are not converts, albeit when we are not converts, we may see the reasoning behind them differently, than when we become Christians and we do them out of a spirit in keeping with Gods Love, and our new nature fed by His Word and HIs Spirit.
Yet blasphemy against God cannot be covered by any of our works. We cannot repay God, no matter what we do. Hence, Christ came to bridge that gap with His work at the cross. He paid for us what we could never repay back to Him. Hence, when we sin against humanity it is natural for the law to take its course, and for us to pay...in fact it would be unjust for us to say...now that I have believed in Jesus...I do not have to make amends for thievery...
Our governments call for us to make restitution...the church can help us in this, so that those who are not Christians can see that we truly have changed...but this is already in our law...and it is required of us by our conscience and by the Gospel...
By the way, I am not Catholic.
Actually Steiner,
You have a misunderstanding about Catholic position. No Catholic (worth his salt) will tell you that you have to do things to get to heaven, and Catholics are competely comfortable saying that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. However, they will also tell you that you must repent of your sins.
I agree, otherwise we have to make absurd statements, such as "only an elect will be saved, and though you might think you are saved now, you cannot be sure" or "Once saved always saved, even if you curse the name of Jesus and kill people, if you said a prayer in your heart then you will be saved" Some try to avoid this by saying "Once saved always saved, but somebody who later rejects Christ or who lives an evil life probably wasn't saved in the beginning (i.e. they didn't say a genuine prayer)"
Well forgive me for saying that this is absurd and I believe anti-biblical. James said, "Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works" And "Faith without works is dead"
Let me ask you, can you have a real faith without works? If not, then you agree with the Catholic/Orthodox position, if so then you contradict the Bible.
I have even heard such ridiculous things as that you can stay in a homosexual relatinoship (despite it's being sinful) and be Christian, because Jesus paid the price for your sins. Would you agree? If not then you agree with the Catholic/Orthodox position.
95% of Protestants problems with the Catholic/Orthodox position is misunderstanding (granted it is largely the RCC's fault, as they were terribly corrupt and did a miserable job of explaining their position until recently)
When the Roman Catholic Church still confuses mans works with salvation...it impinges on Christs sacrifice, and the significance of Christ. In fact it questions the Gospel...and it goes the islamic way. This is not unity under God, but a political/religious unity under Man.
God shall judge such a system, for it rejects the only way to salvation, much like the islamic one.
I agree with Chris333, that the Orthodox should be included in discussions of the body of Christ. When they try and remove the Ten Commandments or eliminate prayer, it's not just for one denomination, it's for ALL of them.
The other side sees us as one body. To defend what is ours by right, we should do the same.
I do not understand why Christian Post, Chuck Colson, and others who seem to be close to Catholics, do not consider the Orthodox Church.
So far I have noticed that Christian Post devotes a good portion of posts to how good the Catholic Church is, and how similar they are to Protestants.
Then, we have the Catholic side which continuously praises them, a good deal of evangelicals who denounce them angrily, and a small group that doesn't seem to care. In all reality, it looks like the Protestants and Catholics are getting closer and closer, at least at the top, but the vast majority of laity still maintain gripes.
What I want to know is why the Orthodox Church is rarely considered, and usually always spoken of negatively. It seems that the Orthodox Church is everything the Catholic Church is, minus Papal Supremacy/infallibility, Immaculate Conception, indulgences, and celibate Priests; all of the things that separated the Protestants and Catholics in the begining, but the Orthodox are barely mentioned.
Thoughts?
Rather, it is the key to understanding how much we really have in common, and how much we need one another to defend against those who want to destroy all Christians, regardless of denomination...beautifully put.