The number of persons vying for the top position of the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the country, has expanded to five this week, with Johnny M. Hunt announced as the latest to join the race.
Hunt, pastor of First Baptist Church of Woodstock, Ga., will be nominated for SBC president during the denomination's annual meeting in June. His church has grown an average worship attendance of 6,180 over the last 21 years and church membership increased from 1,027 to 16,495.
The Woodstock congregation has also sent out more than 135 missionaries and started more than 78 churches.
Ted Traylor, pastor of Olive Baptist Church in Pensacola, Fla., announced Tuesday that he will nominate Hunt for the leadership position, commenting that he has a deep concern about the future of the Southern Baptist Convention.
"I believe Southern Baptists are looking for a future that is marked by unity, not division," Traylor said, according to Baptist Press. "Johnny Hunt has one fight in him and that is the good fight of faith. He is a leader who can forge a hopeful future that is centered around the Gospel and connected to the local church."
Also on Tuesday, John Marshall, senior pastor of Second Baptist Church Springfield, Mo., announced that he intends to nominate former missionary Avery Willis for SBC president.
Willis has served as an International Mission Board missionary to Indonesia, worked as an evangelist and church developer for six years, was president of Indonesian Baptist Theological Seminary in Semarang, Indonesia, and led the adult discipleship department at LifeWay Christian Resources.
He developed the "MasterLife" discipleship materials, which has been translated into more than 50 languages and used in more than 100 countries.
Willis and Hunt join three other Southern Baptists vying for the top leadership spot. They include Dr. William L. (Bill) Wagner, president of Olivet University International in San Francisco and a former missionary; Frank Cox, pastor of North Metro First Baptist Church in Lawrenceville, Ga; and Wiley Drake, a California pastor and former SBC second vice president.
In February, the Rev. Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., one of the country's pre-eminent conservative evangelicals, dropped his bid to become president after a tumor was found during a routine colonoscopy.
The annual SBC meeting opens June 11 in Indianapolis.
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msnchris70
Do you ever allow the Word of God speak to your heart?
msnchris70
For the record, I am female.
Star2,
Amen brother! God is more interested in how the heart of man loves Him and adores Him and there is nothing more loving than celebrating the Eucharist. The Ancient liturgy, since it is God Breathed, is our most loving form of worship because it is how God wanted to be worshipped.
I will also agree with you that there are people in every style of Christian Church who have their own rituals and traditions and they look more like Robots going through the paces, rather than embracing the God of the Universe. If the Heart doesn't belong to Christ. If the Heart isn't totally sold out to Jesus Christ, then no style of ritual will matter.
My point: Give God the love He deserves the way He requested it and do it with a Heart of Love and adoration. Yes, there are Catholics who are so set in the Ritual they have lost the point of the relationship with Christ and Yes there are many Protestants too who are either too wrapped up in the Praise and Worship as a form of entertainment, or the Protestant who edifies the Pastor because he is so motivational, etc.
The Heart does matter and I thank you for bringing it up Star2. We all fall short, and need a Savior.
msnchris70
Re: worship service
God is interested in the heart not ritual.
Now there are certain men who have acquired great celebrity as "Church Fathers."
This term, strangely enough, is never applied to the apostles, to whom it would seem to be more applicable than to any other men, but to certain men who lived in the first few centuries of the Christian era, and who exerted a great influence on the church. As a matter of fact, the true church has but one Father, even God; therefore whatever church recognizes any men as its Fathers, must be a church of merely human planting, having only human ordinances. (Fathers Of The Catholic Church: A Brief Examination Of The “Falling Away” of the Church in the first three centuries. by E. J. Waggoner)
Take heed saints, lest you give ear to, “Yea, hath God said?” and you be led away from “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16, 17).
The writings of Irenaeus are quite extensive, and are very greatly lauded; yet it has been well said that "their preciousness bears no proportion to their bulk." A writer in the British and Foreign Evangelical Review (January, 1869), says: "It would be possible to compress into a very few pages all the statements of fact that can be deemed really valuable to us at the present day."
In spite of all the praise that is lavished upon the Fathers, the same thing may be said of all of them. Indeed, we may go further, and say that although their writings contain, as a matter of necessity, some statements of fact, and some principles of truth, if not one of the so-called Christian Fathers had ever written a line, the amount of useful knowledge in the world would not be one iota less than it now is, and the Christian church would be far better off. (Fathers Of The Catholic Church: A Brief Examination Of The “Falling Away” of the Church in the first three centuries. by E. J. Waggoner)
Stay true to God saints, and be not led away from “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16, 17).
Many non-Catholic Christian Churches and Congregations have helped start non-Christian groups like Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Christ Scientist, etc. From the well spring of Hope and Truth who is Jesus Christ, the fullness and richness of all His teachings remain in the Catholic Church. I could not help, but come to my senses after 20 years and finally become Catholic. I went from anti-Catholic to Catholic. I read Scripture, I studied Scripture and continued my formal education in search of the Fullness of Truth which is Christ. The more I read about the early Christians and compared that with Scripture for proofing I found out that I had been mislead.
I thank God my parents were Jesus loving Bible reading Christians. I began my faith in the Baptists Tradition, refined my faith in the Calvinist Tradition and completed my journed to come home to the Catholic Church. It gives me such joy to celebrate Sunday as the earliest Christians did. I am humbled to eat the flesh and drink the blood of our Lord and Savior, so I can have His life in me so I can radiate the love and joy of Christ. The Sacraments do infuse Grace, but it is up to you to cooperate with it. I am so happy that when I read Scripture that I can compare my interpretation to the earliest of Christians and make sure I am on the same page.
May you always follow your conscience. May your conscience be always well informed. May your information always stand the test by using Scripture to proof it. May you always search out how the earliest Christians interpretated the same Scripture verse because their witness is closests to the fountain of life which is Christ Jesus. May you love thy God with all your heart and love thy neighbor as yourself. May Love Christ by keeping the 10 commandments. May you always live the Beatitudes and put your Trust in the Saving Grace of Christ.
Then it hit me. Which Church has historically come from the Apostles? Which Church has the most Biblical form of Hiearchy? Which Church decided what books went into the New Testament? Which Church defined the Incarnation, the Trinity and all other Christological Theology? Which Church fought against heresy from the very beginning? Which Church today still follows the ancient liturgy? Which Church has safeguarded the Scriptures? Which Church has spread the Christian faith to every corner of the Earth? Which Church has the final authority as revealed in Scripture through the Keys given by Christ?
All these questions can be answered with three words: THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. The fact is relativism is not only secular it is Christian. Secularists become relativists when it comes to morality. Liberal Christians become relativists when it comes to morality and theology. Conservative Christians become relativists when they have to create their own worship style from scratch and do not hold to the earliest beliefs of the founding Christians.
The farther you are from the fullness of Truth, which is the Church founded by Christ the more watered down your Tradition will be. On one spectrum you have the Catholic Church and on the other you have non-denominational Christian Churches. All people who ever broke off fromt the Catholic Church are still Christian.
The summit of worship for the early Christians was the "Eucharist". All the Scripture they read and prayers they said during the service prepared them to recieve the Eucharist in a worthy manner. The early Chrisitan service was not a Bible study, it was communion. Being in Communion with one another was the most important part. They shared the same faith, because of the same Lord. They always shared the Eucharist on Sunday, but they also did it during the week too. I couldn't become Anglican, because that was just a Protestant version of Catholicism and was only a shadow of the real thing. I looked at the Orthodox too. While they definitely have Apostolic origins without question and a liturgy that comes from the Apostles, they are very ethnically divided. The Russians, Ukranians, Coptics, Greeks had the same faith but they could never come together as one church because they saw their National origins as paramount to their unity in Christ. I remembered from Scripture that we are neither Jew or Gentile right? A Christian is just a Christian. The Orthodox Church really began in the 9th Century and more formally in the 11th as a Eastern Chrisitan Church not under the authority of the Pope.
Did Christ want His Church to be ethnically divided? No. Did Christ want His flock to have one Shepherd? Yes. Christ also wanted His Church to be Universal. I realized that Christ founded a Church, and this Church would be protected by the Holy Spirit to never fall into error. Well, in the first 1000 years only areas that had Bishops from the Easter Christians created heresies, and who was the final judge....The Bishop of Rome. The Bishop of Rome was the final court of apeals. He had veto power and had the power to bind and lose and had the Power because of the Gift of the Keys given to Peter's office as Bishop by Jesus.
Cont'd.
I read the letters of Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Irenaus, Clement and then Origen. I read the Didache and many other writings of the first 500 years of Christianity. You see, Star2, I was taught as a Baptist child that the Catholic Pope was the anti-Christ and Catholics were very dangerous because they were a "NEAR-Christianity" type group that could mislead people very easilly. I even remember going door to door on a Saturday outreach program and targetting Catholic households for conversion. I was raised a anti-Catholic, which was only given more fuel when I attended Seminary.
I couldn't help reading the early Christian writings concerning their; worship style, hiearchy and prayer life without thinking it sounded pretty Catholic. Being anti-Catholic, I assumed it wasn't Catholic but maybe Anglican or Orthodox. Well, their denominations didn't exist yet so I just ignored it.
I flirted with leaving the Reformed Tradition and becoming Anglican. I saw the rich Liturgical Tradition in Anglicanism that found its roots in the Earliest style of worship in the 1st and 2nd century. The majority of the service was Scripture. In fact, 90% of the service was Scripture with a 15 minute message on the readings. I could worship like the early church and yet still be Protestant, which was great. I certainly didn't want to be under the "PAPAL DICTATOR".
Cont'd
Star2,
None of the above. I was raised Baptist, then after Seminary I became a Calvinist of the Reformed Tradition because I found that Baptists had a non-Scriptural and a non-historical position on Baptism for infants and its effects. I am happily married.. I resigned as a Pastor and got a teaching job at a University. I am preparing to become a Deacon in the Catholic Church.
Why did I resign? About 10 years in to my ministry work I began my Doctorate work in Theology through an Evangelical University on the west coast. I already had my Masters from Seminary, so I thought it would be good to continue my learning. My specific area of interest was the "Early Christians". I really wanted to know what they believed and how they worshipped God, etc. Although this was an Evangelical school I attended, one of the books I had to read was by an Orthodox Priest. I started reading the "Early Church Fathers" who were personally discipled by the Apostles.
Cont'd.
msnchris70
You said that you were a Protestant Pastor for 20 yrs. Since you have been a part of a SBC Baptist Church then I assume you were a Baptist Pastor.
Were you married during your Protestant Pastorship? If yes, then are you still married? If not, then are you a widower or a divorcee?
If you are a divorcee then, did your congregation require you to resign according to the by-laws of the Baptist Church that says that divorcees can not be Pastors of a Church? I believe that is a part of the Baptist Faith and Message.
Are you now a Priest? If yes, why did you become one? Is it because you thought that the Catholic clergy had a closer relationship with God and you desired that in your own life? Or was it because you still wanted to be in the ministry but could not be in the Baptist Church but the RCC would accpet you if you took a vow of celibacy?
“We have 265 Successors to the Seat of Peter…The majority of all our Popes have been Godly men …” --msnchris70
You do err in not understanding the magnitude of the situation:
-265 men in a position that was not established by God make them deceived, a deceiver, or both.
-265 men in a position that promotes gross scriptural error, even unto blasphemy, make them deceived, a deceiver, or both.
-265 men in a position that paints biblical Mary over pagan goddess worship make them deceived, a deceiver, or both.
-265 men in a position that has deceived millions and wrought devastation make them deceived, a deceiver, or both.
May God raise up an army of messengers of fire, whose tongues are as the pen of a ready writer, who will boldly rise up against this position with the sword of the Spirit, crushing the error therein, to rescue all that can be saved therein.
msnchris70
(I flagged myself)
Re:Why is it that all the most educated Protestants are becoming Catholic or at least Orthodox in droves. Why is it the best and brightest and the people who are the MOST CONSERVATIVE in Morals are coming in droves to the Catholic Church?
The reason is they have lost their ability to discern truth from error. They look to man for understanding of scripture instead of looking to God.
OH yeah, and if you say something like you don't have a reliable list of Popes, which we do then I know you love the DaVinci Code and you get your Theology from the DISCOVERY CHANNEL.
Wilderness,
-The Old Testament is a precursor to the New Testament right????
-The Old Covenant and Old Testament predicts through the Scriptures and prophets of things to come in the New Testament and the New Covenant, right???
So far you said "yes' to both of these questions.... Right???
Jesus did found the Church on KEPHA(Rock). No one has ever been named Rock before, so it is important right??? If Jesus changes your name it is important right??? Just like the Old Testament where God changed Abram to Abraham it was a big deal right????
Look at Isaiah 22. Do a little homework and you will see what MOST major Protestant scholar will now admit today. Isaiah 22 discusses how Eliakim will receive the KEYS of the KINGDOM in the Davidic Kingdom. Eliakim will become the PRIME MINISTER for the House of the KING having full authority to close and open on the King's behalf...sounding familiar yet?. This office of PRIME MINISTER for ELIAKIM will be DYNASTIC which means after Eliakim dies it goes to another to take his office. Funny how this sounds like Jesus is taking from the Old Testament and speaking in the New Testament about Peter getting the KEYS OF THE KINGDOM of HEAVEN. So, Jesus who is the KING OF KINGS makes Peter the Prime Minister of HIS FLOCK and Peter has the right to ......Bind and Loose..open and close.
Isaiah 22 is the prefigurement of Matt 16:18. I hope you can get beyond your bias to see it, like many credible Protestant Scholars have recently done. We have 265 Successors to the Seat of Peter who is now Pope Benedict XVI. The Church of Jesus Christ was not built on the Strongest of man, but of one of the weakest. It takes the Power of the HolyTrinity to create protection around this single weak person, so that their faith does not fail and they would never bind or loose doctrine that wasn't the fullness of Truth.
The majority of all our Popes have been Godly men and about 20 were average guys and 11 were horible men and devious in everyway possible, and yet none of these 11 bad Popes ever created a doctrine. We have a Church made of Saints and Sinners and 2000 years of history as one single church with the same structure has not failed in 2000 years because of the POWER OF GOD and not of our own power because we are all sinners and all in need of our Savior.
Star2,
You are a relativists and at least you finally admit it. I doesn't matter that Catholic doctrine matches up with the beliefs of the earliest Christians that were known for orthodoxy. In the first 300 years of Christianity do you know how the Real Church of Christ sepparated it from HERETICS who thought Jesus wasn't God, that the Holy Spirit wasn't God they had to show a connection to the Apostles through Apostolic Succession because otherwise it was just one group of Christians using Scripture to support their view over others. Those who could show Apostolic Succession were Called the Catholic Church which meant universal but it also meant "According to the Whole" meaning According to the Whole of the Apostles. ALL CATHOLIC TEACHING is Apostolic.
You, and whatever Church or sect you belong to is Not Apostolic and you don't follow genuine Christianity. You version of Christianity will not last as it predicts in the Bible about FALSE PROPHETS. My Catholic CHurch was Present when Jesus promised to be with His Church always. We are still here.......!
Why is it that all the most educated Protestants are becoming Catholic or at least Orthodox in droves. Why is it the best and brightest and the people who are the MOST CONSERVATIVE in Morals are coming in droves to the Catholic Church? Wherever the Truth resides in its fullness, THERE IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
If the church was to be built upon Peter (which it is not), then what part of Peter was it to be built upon?
Peter’s flesh? Would Christ build his church upon that which passes away, withers like the grass, or can be corrupted in its way? (Ps 78:39; 1Pe 1:24, 25; Gen 6:12)
Peter’s heart? Would Christ build his church upon that which can be overwhelmed, regard iniquity, be hardened, deceitful, wicked, smitten and wither like grass? (Ps 61:2; Ps 66:18; Ps 95:8; Ps102:4)
Peter’s spirit? Would Christ build his church upon that which can be overwhelmed, fail, or be broken? (Ps 143:4, 7; Pr 17:22)
Peter’s faith? Would Christ build his church upon that which can be weak, departed from, be little, or even be dead? (Ro 14:1; 1Ti 4:1; Mt 8:26; James 2:20)
Peter’s mouth and tongue? Would Christ build his church upon that which can curse, be filthy, be given over to evil and deceit? (Jas 3:9, 10; Col 3:8; Ps 50:19)
The church built upon Peter? No, and let a man be more willing to die a thousand deaths then to accept such falsity. The rock or foundation of the church will always be that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. “For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?” (Ps 18:31)
msnchris70
If you love Jesus so much then why don't you obey Him?
msnchris70
I don't need any teachings from the Early Church Fathers of the RCC who the Church claims got their teaching from the Apostles.
The Word of God is all I need for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness.
2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
I do not rely on any human being to teach me what the Word of God says. I rely on God. Everything I write on CP is my own. I do not get any of it from any Protestant teacher/pastor.
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things, bring to our remembrance everything He said (John 14:26), and guide us into all truth (John 16:13). I take Jesus at His Word and I depend on God to give me understanding of His Word through the Holy Ghost that dwells in me. You would be wise to do likewise.
John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
John 16:13 - " Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
(I flagged myself)
msnchris70
By the way, my CP ID is 'star2' not 'Star82'.
It is this characteristic of the Fathers which makes them so valuable to advocates of a cause which has no Scripture evidence in its support. Let a person once get the idea that the testimony of the Fathers is of value, and you may prove anything to him that you choose. (Fathers Of The Catholic Church: A Brief Examination Of The “Falling Away” of the Church in the first three centuries. by E. J. Waggoner)
Stay strong saints and be not led away from the word of God into uninspired writings, apostasy, vain traditions, idolatry, and pagan infusion. Take heed to the word of God: “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears” (Ac 20:29-31).
I would be really frustrated too if none of my interpretations of Scripture matched what the earliest Christians believed. It would kind of mean that I love Christ, but I have no connection to the Church or the Christian faith that Christ founded.
That would be devastating as a Christian to realize.
Star82,
This is my last response to you. I'm sorry you are experiencing such hatred for me in your writings. You may want to pray about it. I think you are only angry because you are not prepared to debate in a professional and charitable way and I can see how you might get frustrated.
The difference from my interpretation and from yours is that my interpretion of Scripture comes from those who were the Early Church Fathers educated and discipled by THE APOSTLES.
Your interpretation comes from a fundamentalist position that is tied to anti-Catholic Pastor who has no crediblity even among main-line Protestants, thus not much crediblity on your side. I think I'll stick to the earliest of interpretations and stay Apostolic.
Since you don't want my prayers, then you should pray for peace in your heart and do yourself a favor and read the early church fathers and continue in your education and hopefully one day you will be prepared for a charitable and professional debate.
Wilderness,
It would be nice if you responded even once to any of my comments. Are you a person or is this an automatic computer program who dishes out Scripture on Command.
Nice quotes above. I didn't realize that St. B created any doctrine. Could you show me any official Catholic doctrine that say writing glories of Mary does anything??? I personally only hold to the official teaching of the Church. Many Saiint have led Godly lives, but have made mistakes. St. B has no official authority to speak on the CHurch's behalf unless it agrees with official church teaching.
These quotes are St. B's opinions and his opinions alone. Since we've existed since the time of Christ I'm sure you'll find quotes that are in error. I only go by official Catholic Church teaching.
It is only through Jesus that we are saved, NOT MARY and writing some Glory about her does absolutely nothing for your salvation.
Now, I'd be really impressed if you actually reasonably respond to what I wrote.
“St. Bonaventure declares that those who are devoted to publishing the glories of Mary, are secure of paradise; and Richard of St. Laurence confirms this by saying, that to honor the queen of angels is to acquire life ever lasting…” (The Glories of Mary, Translated From the Italian of St. Alphonsus Liguori)
Publishing the glories of Mary (as St. Bonaventure suggested) will not secure paradise for anyone. In addition, honoring some “queen of angels” (as St. Laurence suggested) will not help us acquire life ever lasting. Ever lasting life can only be found in Jesus alone. John 3:16, 1 Tim 1:16, Gal 6:8.
Take heed saints, lest you be led away from the truth of God’s word and into superstition, vain traditions, idolatry, apostasy, and fables. Stay settled in these deceiving times and remember that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2Ti 3:16, 17).
msnchris70
Re: Praying to dead saints
Your Church, the RCC, uses Rev 8:3-4 to justify the practice of praying to dead Saints. The prayers that are offered up to God in these verses are the prayers that the saints prayed while they were here on the earth not while they are in Heaven.
God gives us a work to do while we are here on the earth. Part of that work is to pray for one another. Once He calls us home to Heaven our work has ended. Rev 14:13 tells us that: "...Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."
Praying to dead saints who you think is in Heaven is a direct violationg of what Jesus taught. He taught His disciples to pray to God the Father while He was still on the earth (Luke 11:1-2) and to God the Father in His name after He went back to Heaven (John 14:13, John 16:23).
You cannot find any scripture to support what you have been taught. You have been deceived by the evil one thru your religious leaders like Eve was deceived by the the devil thru the serpant in the garden of Eden.
God does not hear your prayers if you pray any other way than to God the Father in Jesus' name
msnchris70
Part 2
The RCC also justifies praying to dead saints because Jesus talked with Lazarus and Moses and Elijah.
Re:about Jesus calling Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44)
Jesus said John 5:21, "For as the Father raised up the dead, and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will" . "quickeneth" here means "to give life to"
Jesus is our example. He is not showing that we can talk to the dead but that He has power over death.
God the Father answered Jesus' command for Lazarus to come forth because of John 5:21.
Re: About Jesus talking with Elijah and Moses (Matt 17:1-9)
This account was not to show us that we could talk with those who had already gone to Heaven. Jesus was transfigured; His earthly body transformed into His heavenly body. Jesus was seen by Peter, James and John in His glorified body (2 Pet 1:18). He was not asking them to pray for anything. They were discussing the Father's will in regard to Jesus dying for the sins of mankind.
Jesus is our example. He was talking with Elijah and Moses in His glorified (heavenly) body not His earthly body.
You to will be able to talk with Moses, Elijah, Mary, the disciples, etc or your family and friends who preceded you in death to Heaven when you go to Heaven but not here on the earth.
msnchris70
I prefer that you not pray at all for me. Please honor my request.
Star82,
Even if we disagree, you still need to be charitable even if we get into tough discussions. I love Jesus Christ, and my faith is in Him to be Saved not by anything else. The Sacraments, the Saints, The Pope, the Bishops, The Bible, The Early Church Fathers and Mary continue to push me into a deeper and deeper personal relationship with Christ. These people and tools were given to all of us to support our faith in Christ.
I am not working my way to heaven my friend, I am simply doing good works because of my genuine faith and God's grace has filled me with joy and given me good works to do. I can do nothing except through Christ. Please don't think for a minute that I put any confidence in anything except for the Grace of Christ to be saved. I will use all the gifts He has given His Church, so that I will never stray from Him.
May our Lord and Savior bring healing to your heart, You are in my prayers.
Pastor Pablito,
You seem to have a good heart and it appears that you are still seeking Truth. We may not see I to eye yet, but I can tell by your posts you love Jesus and you serve him well. Having spent 20 years of Catholic bashing myself as a Pastor and attending Gordon Conwell Seminary I read a lot of anti-Catholic stuff. I feel that all my Bible Studies have led me to the Truth which is the CAtholic Church. The only Church founded by God and truly Apostlic in its Faith.
May the Peace of Our Lord and Savior continue to guide you to His Truth. Keep up the great work, and yes your works won't save you but your works show the True Faith you really have and that is the point and Yes, by Grace you have been saved and will be saved.
We may be on different ends of the Spectum of Christianity. I a former Protestant minister turned Catholic and you a former Catholic turned Evangelical. What a twosome we are.
God bless you and always follow your conscience, with prayer. You are in my prayers and I will pray through the intercession of St. Francis that God blesses your work. You truly are living out the Beatitudes.
Wilderness,
Could you show me where in the Bible that I cannot speak to those in heaven and make requests on our behalf to Jesus? Revelation shows the Elders praying for us with the Angels bringin bowlful of prayers and it shows that they are aware of our struggles. Becareful now, Jesus is not the God of the dead but of the living much like when Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah eventhough both were dead physically but were obviously alive Spiritually and Jesus spoke to them and they spoke to Him.
Our version of the communion of Saints is that physical death cannot separate the Body of Christ. If you ask your friend on earth to pray for you, then making requests of those alive in Christ in Heaven also makes sense, since they are already beatified in Christ.
You still haven't told me why Paul calls himself "Father"?
Peace of Christ.
Let us pray.
O GOD, Who, in Thine unspeakable foreknowledge, didst choose Thy blessed servant Joseph to be the husband of Thine Own most holy Mother; mercifully grant that now that he is in heaven with Thee, we who on earth do reverence him for our defender, may worthily be holpen by the succour of his prayers to Thee on our behalf. (The Roman Breviary Vol. I--Winter)
Are we to reverence Joseph as our defender? What saith the scriptures? “Deliver me from mine enemies, O my God: defend me from them that rise up against me” (Ps 59:1). “So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me” (Heb 13:6).
Take heed and let no man direct you from scriptural authority. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2Ti 3:16, 17).
msmchris70
You are an ungodly man and your heart is not right with God. You are dead in your tresspasses and sins. The Spirit of God is dead in you. The idols of your heart are the ones who answer you when you pray. Your wisdom is earthly, sensual, and demonic. You will perish if you don't repent, turn your back on Catholicism, and return to the living God through the Lord Jesus Christ and worship Him in Spirit and Truth.
Hopefully, these too will be my last words to you.
msnchris70,
My last words here (hopefully).
I was in the Catholic faith for 30 years so I'm not making statements about something that I know nothing of.
My advice to you is this; go read some research on the Catholic Church that ISN'T produced BY the Catholic Church. Your getting biased material. The best way to study something is not to set out to prove that it is right, but to set out to prove that it is wrong. THEN, if it is true and right, it will stand up to the test. If you try to prove that what you believe is right, the only evidence you will see is that which supports your theory.
God bless and take care.
Pablito
msnchris70,
I have never claimed that I do anything special. And, I do keep in accord with the faith of the Apostles. I read and heed their words everyday. I believe in what Jesus said in Luke 17:9-10 Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'" (NIV)
I am only doing my duty for my God who has saved me ONLY by His grace. It is to Him I owe my salvation and He is where it comes from. Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (NIV)
The way for the acceptance of a pope, in whose individuality the mass of mankind should sink their own, was prepared, as we have shown in previous chapters, by the excessive veneration that was shown for the writings of uninspired, and even unchristian, men.
When men accept the assertions of the Fathers, there is nothing to hinder their acknowledging the pope of Rome, for he simply reflects the opinions of the Fathers. This is why he can contradict himself, and still be reckoned infallible. There are no two of the Fathers who fully agree with each other, and there is no one of them who fully agrees with himself.
The Fathers are the real head of the Roman Catholic Church, and the pope is simply their mouth-piece; for it is more convenient for the people to have one man to declare to them the teaching of the Fathers, than for the people to find them out for themselves. To be sure, the contradictions of many infallible Fathers appear a little more incongruous when exhibited in the person of one infallible pope, but one soon gets used to that. (Fathers Of The Catholic Church: A Brief Examination Of The “Falling Away” of the Church in the first three centuries. by E. J. Waggoner)
To PastorPablito, You have done nothing special my friend. You are only doing what your calling asks of you, WHICH IS GREAT. There are Priests and Nuns who daily give their lives take vows of Poverty and help the poor in the harshests of Streets. You my friend, are a good person for doing this, and thank you. There are 750,000 Priests and Nuns who live lives very close to yours and yet they keep in accord with the Apostolic faith. When it comes to charity, we should all do more, but even you have to admit no church, no government does more more for the poor and living the Beatitudes factually than the Catholic Church-the largest charitable organization on EARTH.
Your heart is in the right place, so I pray you reach a lot of people. You should read St. Francis of Assisi, he was a great guy too!
Wilderness,
You are so funny! I loved all of the Titles of honor you found. Most of the titles are factual and some are not. I think you should go back to eating GERBER food like when you were a baby, because you seem disatisfied that the Church has grown into a full adult and eats real food.
The sad part of this whole thing, you are trying so hard to reconfigure the past that you forget to remember that your faith came from the Catholic Church. Your sect didn't exist, and speaking from logic alone. The effect can never be greater than the cause. We are the Cause and you are the effect 2000 years later.
Nice try on the Titles. I really enjoyed your ignorance of the Pope. This is fun, keep it up. It gives me a chuckle.
Peter, an apostle (1Pe 1:1), an elder (1Pe 5:1), and a servant (2Pe 1:1).
The above scriptures, as directed by the Holy Spirit, speak volumes against the following pompous display of erroneous teaching:
1. The Pope
2. Patriarch of the West
3. Primate of Italy
4. Metropolitan of the Province of Rome
5. Bishop of Rome
6. Sovereign Pontiff (derived from the priesthood of pagan Rome)
7. Our Holy Father
8. Your Holiness
9. Most Blessed Father
10. Servant of the Servants of God
11. Chief pastor of the whole church
12. His Holiness
13. The Holy Father
14. Supreme Pontiff
15. Vicar of Christ
In Peter (an apostle, a servant, and an elder), we do not scripturally find a tiara, a mitre of plates of gold, being carried on a chair, having his foot, knee, or ring kissed. Neither do we find Peter establishing complex rituals and outlandish traditions that contradict the word of God, adopting pagan practices of worship and grandiose titles, praying with, through, or to saints who physically sleep in the Lord.
msnchris70,
My song is "I did it His way", yours is "I did it THEIR way". Why do you continue to follow man instead of the Word of God?
I just got through showing you that I follow the church as it was established in the first few months, not hundreds of years! I follow the teachings of the Apostles that are recorded in the Scriptures! I don't need a guy in Rome telling me when to sit, stand, kneel, bow and do a sign of the cross. Why do you follow tradition and ritualistic worship that has the roots of paganism?
The "historical roots" are written in the Bible, not in the several hundred or thousand years afterwards. The building of the Catholic church was all about the men involved and their desire to have power. That's why the mass was in Latin for so many years. To keep people thinking there was something mystical about it and above their heads.
The Catholic church didn't want it's people reading the Bible themselves, because then they would lose the power that they had over the members. Wake up and smell the coffee! You have fallen into the same trap as the others.
Martin Luther got it and he scared them when he realized that what they were selling was a pack of lies. All he wanted to do was question their erroneous doctrines and when it threatened to take away their power, he had to go. Thank God he did so we could have the freedom of the real Scriptures!
My works that PROVE my faith are daily, how about yours? I'm in the trenches. I've given up everything for my walk with Christ. I don't need the "historical continuity" that came after the Apostles. That's when man started to pervert the purity of the Scriptures. Same thing happened when the leaders of the Israelites started to get together and "interpret" what God's law meant, instead of just reading it. The ended up concerned about the Law instaead of the purpose of the Law. You and the Catholic Church are doing the same thing. The parallels are painfully obvious to everyone but you.
If you can't read the Bible and figure out what you walk with Christ and your relationship with God is supposed to be like, then you are truly in sad shape and I guess you will continue to follow other men instead of God.
I pray that God will open your eyes to the truth of HIs Scriptures and His Church and NOT the history of a man made church.
It is claimed that the "Fathers" must be competent guides, since they lived so near the days of Christ and the apostles. This is a tacit admission that the gospel which was preached by Christ and the apostles is the true standard. But that has been recorded in the New Testament; and therefore, instead of being obliged to depend on the testimony of any who lived this side of their time, we can go direct to the fountain-head, and can draw therefrom the gospel in as pure a state as though we had listened in person to the teaching of inspired men. (Fathers Of The Catholic Church: A Brief Examination Of The “Falling Away” of the Church in the first three centuries. by E. J. Waggoner)
Take heed, lest you are drawn away from “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2Ti 3:16, 17).
Here is an interesting article. My Episcopal Bishop became Catholic recently. Here is an interesting article about a Pentacostal. I'm not sure I am ready to jump ship just yet of the Protestant ship, but this is a very interesting article from a man who was clearly led by the Holy Spirit. May God grant us all the Holy Spirit to guide us ALL into all Truth, since some of us may be on the wrong path. God loves humility.
Catholic deacon, former evangelical preacher: Bible study led me on path to the Church
www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=27874
To all Three of you.
You should all sing that song on Judgement day, "I DID IT MY WAY." I know of 30,000 Protestant denominations who think the same way. Do you think the Holy Spirit loves the way you guys keeping on wounding and breaking up the body of Christ?
You throw Scriptures my way, I throw them your way. Does this accomplish anything?
If you can just show me how your INTERPRETATION matches the Earliest Christians, that would be great.
I challenge all three of you! Show me even in the first 1000 years of Christianity how your interpretation of Scripture matches up with how the real Christians lived out Scripture.
Shouldn't it worry you that all three of you can quote Scripture yet you depart from its Historical roots?
Faith without reason is fruitless. Faith without works is worthless. Reading Scripture outside of historical continuity and context is futile and does nothing but create division.
Chris,
You missed my point, my church IS the earliest form of church that there was. Here is the scripture to back up my position, Acts 2:42-47 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. (NIV)
That is the earliest form of church there was my friend. It's not about buildings and hierarchies, it's about doing what Jesus commanded us to do, Love one another. Help those in need and preach the Gospel. I do it every day, to the drug addicts, to the alcoholics, to the poor, to the sick, to the hungry, to the people no one wants anything to do with.
Don't come here and preach to me about my church, you know nothing about my church. I preach the Word as God has revealed it to me.
Talk about tradition, the Catholic Church is steeped in it. And Jesus spoke about that too.
Mark 7:5-8 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"
6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
"'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." (NIV)
The problem is, the Catholic Church doesn't search the Scriptures any more, they have made up their mind what they believe and the only study that they do is trying to back up what they believe, not seek new insight. The Scriptures are living things, Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. (NIV) You can read it today and then tomorrow and God may reveal something new to you.
More and more will be revealed as we get closer to His return. Get back into the Word and quit listening to Rome!
msnchris70
Re: What Church do you go to?
I am a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. I was raised and saved in the Baptist Church. I have attended several different SBC Churches during my life time. I am now Pentecostal and attend a nondenomiational full gospel (Pentecostal) Church.
msnchris70
Old Testament Covenant:
The Jews are to observe all the days of their life the passover in order that they may REMEMBER how God delivered them from Egyptian bondage.
Deu 16:1-3
1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the Lord thy God: for in the month of Abib the Lord thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there.
3 Thou shalt eat no leaven bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleaven bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest REMEMBER the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.
The New Testament Covenant:
The teaching the Apostle Paul received from the Lord Jesus regarding the passover:
1 Corintihians 11: 23-26
23 For I have received of the Lord that which I also deliver unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, 'Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in REMEMBRANCE of me'.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, 'This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in REMEMBRANCE of me'.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew forth the Lord's death till he come.
Jesus is the fulfilment of the Old Testament. He is the passover Lamb that would redeem people from their sins.
It is obvious that the bread was only symbolic of Jesus' body. The Word of God says that the Messiah would be stricken for our transgressions. (Isaiah 53:8) Jesus took 39 stripes on His body. When the Jews baked their unleaven bread it was done on a grill and it left strips on it. The strips that Jesus took on His back parallels the strips on the unleaven bread. Jesus is the fulfilment of the Old Testament observance.
It is obvious that the cup was only symbolic of Jesus' blood. Jesus is the passover Lamb. It is His shed blood that is applied to our hearts (by accepting Jesus' sacrifice for our sins) that gives us redemption from our sins and allows us to escape His judgement when we die.
Since Jesus didn't give His body to be whipped until later that night and shed His blood until the next day when He hung on the cross the eating of the bread and the drinking of the cup is only a symbol of what He was going to do for them.
The Jews observe the passover as a REMINDER of what God did for them in delivering them from Egyptian bondage. In like manner, Christians observe the Lord's Supper as a REMINDER of what Jesus did for them to deliver them from sin.
Let us pray.
O GOD, in defence of Whose Church the glorious Bishop Thomas fell by the swords of wicked men, grant, we beseech Thee, that all that ask his help may obtain wholesome fruit of their petition. (The Roman Breviary Vol. I--Winter)
Take heed saints of God and let no man direct you away from scriptural authority and the simplicity that is in Christ. Let no man call upon Bishop Thomas for help in their hour of need, such a prayer would be in vain, but let this be the prayer: “Hear, O Lord, and have mercy upon me: Lord, be thou my helper” (Ps 30:10).
It has always been the habit of Catholics in danger and in troublous times to fly for refuge to Mary, and to seek for peace in her maternal goodness; showing that the Catholic Church has always, and with justice, put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God. And truly the Immaculate Virgin, chosen to be the Mother of God and thereby associated with Him in the work of man's salvation, has a favor and power with her Son greater than any human or angelic creature has ever obtained, or ever can gain. And, as it is her greatest pleasure to grant her help and comfort to those who seek her, it cannot be doubted that she would deign, and even be anxious, to receive the aspirations of the universal Church.
(Supremi Apostolatus Officio Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII - On Devotion to the Rosary - 1 September 1883)
In light of scriptural truth, pope Leo’s words are contrary to sound doctrine. According to scripture:
The Mary of Catholicism is a false refuge: Ps 94:22 But the Lord is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.
The Mary of Catholicism is a false peace: Phil 4:6-7 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
The Mary of Catholicism is a false hope: Ro 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
The Mary of Catholicism is a false trust: 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
God bless you too Pablito,
I will pray for you, as I hope you pray for me. I encourage you in your Bible Study and hope that you will try to marry the historical writings of the Church with Scripture to see what the earliest Christians thought.
It is important what we believe. The more info we have the better our relationship is with Christ. Ignorance of Scripture is Ignorance of Christ.-Jerome.
Yes the core things are most important and even if you and I disagree, I will accept you as my brother in the Lord. I will still challenge you to seek the fullness of Truth and never be satisfied or content with your knowledge of Christ. We can never be satisfied until we are with Him in Heaven.
Peace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with you all.
Catholic with an Attitude-MSNCHRIS70....Out.
Could you use Scripture to support your positiion??? If your church is the Street, then my friend you are rejecting Scripture in Acts which talks about Christ Church's leadership being Bishops, Priests and Deacons. Why are you such an ALA CARTE CHRISTIAN? You don't take ALL OF SCRIPTURE, you pick and choose what fits your own Tradition. Relativism at its best!
Do you see why I challenge you. I could find a good number of Anglicans and Lutherans and Methodists who would agree with me. Yes, we are all the Body of Christ and where two or more are gathered there is the Body, but without God's authoritative Hiearchy clearly appointed in Scripture then you don't have the fullness of God's Truth.
There is not one Piece of Scripture that has ever been contradicted by the Catholic Church.
What do you think of the Orthodox, Anglicans, Methodists, Assyrians, Armenians and Ethiopeans who most have a tie to the early Church through the Catholic Church. They don't look or act anything like you. The early Christians didn't think or act anything like you and doesn't that give you pause? Seriously!!!
The farther your denomination is from the Earliest form of Christianity, the more watered down your faith will be. AT least Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, Reformed and Presbyterians have retained much of the original Church in their Liturgy. What is your excuse? Why is your service so watered down? Why has it become just a bible study instead of Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist?
Let me say one last thing. Even Paul and Peter had disagreements on some matters of doctrine. Christians must stand in unity on the core and foundation of our faith and that is Christ as our Lord and Savior and His sacrifice as payment for our sins. God will judge our individual and collective doctrines as HE sees fit. In the end, it doesn't matter what we believe, it only matters what He believes (or actually knows!)
God bless you all, (msnchris70, et al.)
Pablito
Msnchris70,
You want to know my church? It’s the street, it’s a small little upper room in a house in a third world country. It is not some grandiose cathedral building with gold and statues and incense and Latin. I come as a servant of the Most High God, with the power of the Holy Spirit and by the authority that I have through Jesus Christ as my Savior.
1 Cor 2:1-5 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. (NIV)
You want to follow a man with a stick and a pointy hat, that is your right, I’ll follow the Lord.
1 Cor 1:10-15 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (NIV)
msnchris70, another thing, before you go spouting off about Sunday being the Sabbath, you better go do some long hard study. You are way off on that. It's a whole other discussion I have spent three years in deep study over with many writings.
Sabbath was, is and will be the seventh day, not the first. (Along with other special days and years). The day of the week that people choose to worship on may be different, but the Sabbath is still the seventh day and it belongs to the Jews, not the Catholics or Baptists or any Christians. It was a sign of the Old Covenant and has no bearing on the New.
Msnchris70, “The Church interpreted the Bible, not you.”
What are you smoking? I am the church. We are the church. The church isn’t that group of people in Rome, it is the Body of Christ.
1 Cor 12:27-28, Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers,
(NIV) Sorry, don’t see Pope or Father any where in there!
You want more scriptures, Matt 23:1-12, Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. (NIV)
This passage is VERY clear about the use of Father and Teacher and Master in use as a “Title of Honor”. The other scriptures you talk about were not used that way and if you can’t tell that by reading them, then my posting them here for you won’t help either.
1 Cor 4:14-16 I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. (NIV) This is CLEARLY a different use of the term father. It is a parental guardian way and not used in the same context that Jesus was talking about in Matt 23.
A Prayer after a Service. In respect of which Pope Leo X. has granted to all persons who after saying the Divine Office shall devoutly recite it on their knees, condonation of the shortcomings and faults committed by them from human frailty in saying the Office.
To the Most Holy and undivided Trinity, to the Manhood of our Lord Jesus Christ Crucified, to the fruitful Virginity of the most blessed and most glorious Mary, always a Virgin, and to the holiness of all the Saints be ascribed everlasting praise, honour, and glory, by all creatures, and to us be granted the forgiveness of all our sins, world without end. Amen. (The Roman Breviary Vol. I--Winter)
Judge yourself concerning the above prayer, but notice how the prayer is also directed to the fruitful “Virginity.” When did “Virginity” become something to direct one’s prayers to? Take heed and remain steadfast, and let no man direct you from 2Ti 3:16, 17: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works”
PASTORPABLITO,
NOTHING YOU WROTE REFUTES WHAT i SAID. Context is your achilles. Since you have no historical record of what the Scriptures meant and you had to wait 1500 years I can see why you are wrong. Scripture with historical context. Throwing random Scripture at me that doesn't refute my position is kind of silly. But thanks for playing.
Wilderness,
Man, I kind of like ya! I love your Scripture quotes, my friend. So, where is your Scripture that refutes my position? I say AMEN to all your quotes with no reservation.
You, and many other Jesus loving brothers of mine are just historically challenged. I bet you would call the early Christians pagans too or Apostate.
HERE IS THE FACT: YOU CANNOT USE SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT ANY BELIEF OF PROTESTANTISM. By contrast, I can use Scripture to defend my positions. Also, I have the historical record that exclaims that the early church was Catholic and if you are not Catholic, then you need to find out why. Try and prove that even one doctrine of ours is anti-biblical.
Also, St. Bonaventure may have had that quote or not, but he is not infallible. How about if I give you some quotes from Jimmy Swaggart, Pastor Hagee, the comb-over indian guy!!
Try to stick to actual teachings.
Take heed, lest you be directed away from “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti 3:16, 17)
Look what happens when one deviates from the word of God: Let us love her as much as her great lover St. Bernard, who loved his sweet mother so much, that he called her "the ravisher of hearts:" …whence the saint, in order to express to her the ardent love he bore her, said to her, "Hast thou not stolen my heart?" (The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus Liguori).
What saith the scriptures? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (Mt 22:37, 38)
tHANKS FOR TELLING ME WHAT A SBC President is. Being a former Baptist, I know what he is and what he does. At least our American President has the power to bind and lose in secular matters and yet your SBC President has no authority over the local Pastors. Now, I ask you is this Biblical and is this how the early Christians did things?
Does your SBC President have any true authority from the Bible? Does he have any binding and losing authority. If he doesn't and your Pastors are not obediant to his final judgement, then what is the point?
Our Pope has binding and losing authority based on Scripture and when he speaks, we listen and we are obediant just like the early church treated the teachings of the Apostles and because it is SCRIPTURAL. This is why after 2000 years we are still are of one mind, one baptism, one Lord and one shepherd, one faith, etc. This is also why within the SBC which is declining in numbers and is only geographically American at best and yet is divided into so many Churches who don't agree with each other on a lot of serious doctrinal issues.
MY ADVICE: READ SCRIPTURE, STUDY THE CONTEXT, READ HOW THE EARLY CHRISTIANS WHO KNEW THE APOSTLES AND HOW THEY INTERPRETED IT AND IF YOUR DENOMINATION DIFFERS, THEN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.
As far as the church being built on Peter, I give you Eph 2:19-21 “Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.” (NIV) ApostleS and ProphetS, with Jesus as the ROCK, the cornerstone which it is built on.
Take heed, lest you be directed away from “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti 3:16, 17)
Look what happens when one deviates from the word of God:
“Therefore I say to thee with St. Bonaventure, Oh, Lady, I submit myself to thy control, that thou mayest rule and govern me entirely.” (The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus Liguori).
What saith the scriptures? Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Each Protestant Church has their own Pope who is their local Pastor or themselves. Did we ever see in the Old Testament where Jews interpreted Scripture for themselves? Nope. Only the Chief Priests could read Scripture and interpret it. Early Christians started the same way where the Church is the foundation of Truth and had place a hiearchy of Bishops who you owend your obediance to. THIS IS A FACT. The Church interpreted the Bible, not you.
I can find five different protestants on this board and you will all disagree on really important Christian doctrines, and YET you think this is what Christ had in mind when he founded His Church. What? Be of one mind, avoid divisiveness. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one shepherd, one church.
The Apostle Paul would laugh at how you twist Scripture to suit your own man-made Traditions.
If your CHurch was not founded by Christ, then you should worry if what you are learning is Authentically Apostolic.....shouldn't you?!
Guess what gave you the New Testament? Oral Tradition!
SHOW ME HOW WHAT YOU BELIEVE, WHICH IS AT VARIANCE WITH THECATHOLIC CHUCH IS BOTH BIBLICAL AND HISTORICAL AT THE SAME TIME.
DRJ,
Do you know how many contradictions you wrote down? Re-read what you wrote. Most everything I would say Amen with you brother.
Your contradictions: "A Christian is one who believes that Jesus Christ is the Messiah of God who was sent by God to redeem all of mankind (not just SOME) from their sins.(AMEN-MSN) A Christian believes that the blood of the Lamb of God was the atoning sacrifice for the sins of ALL of mankind. (AMEN-MSN) A Christian knows that only God (NOT the POPE) can forgive sins because of the blood of Jesus. (MSN-Jesus gave the Apostles in SCrIPTURE THE POWER TO FORGIVE SINS AND THE APOSTLES PASSED THIS POWER DOWN TO THEIR SUCCESSORS THE BISHOPS AND PRIESTS-HISTORICALLY VERIFIED) A Christian believes that the same Jesus who died, was buried, and rose again on the third day (according to the Scriptures) will return one day for the final redemption of all who believe in Him (both the living and the dead) as God. (MSN-AMEN)A Christian will not worship anything or anyone other than the Lord God of Creation...that includes his pastor, priest, or pope; his Bible; his family; his material trophies; his church building and members; his money market accounts; his degree of educational accomplishment; or any other thing or person!! (AMEN AND GOOD FOR YOU) CHRISTIANS ONLY NEED THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS AND THEIR OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS(AHA SO YOU ARE NOT SAVED BY FAITH ALONE!!!). THey do not need to confess to a priest for their salvatiion.(MSN-Confess your sins to one another & Presbters will pray over you and your sins will be forgiven IN SCRIPTURE) They do not need to take communion for their salvation.(MSN-UNLESS YOU EAT MY FLESH OR DRINK MY BLOOD YOU WILL HAVE NO LIFE IN YOU) THey do not need to attend Mass for their salvation. (MSN-ANOTHER CONTRADICITION YOU SAID HAVE FAITH AND FOLLOW HIS COMMANDMENTS AND CHURCH ON SUNDAY IS MANDATORY) Salvation is found in no other name but Jesus; for there is no other name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved.(AMEN)
This is a perfect example of Protestantism and this is why I left. No connection of Scripture with the Historical witness of early Christians. Protestants simply have their view or interpretation and today their are 30,000 SECTS of Protestants who keep dividing everyday and none of them can agree on anything but the fact they are not CATHOLIC.
The point of this whole discussion was because msnchris70 decided that he needed to tell everyone that the SBC are unbiblical in their having a president for their convention.
From the SBC website:
"The term "Southern Baptist Convention" refers to both the denomination and its annual meeting. Working through 1,200 local associations and 41 state conventions and fellowships, Southern Baptists share a common bond of basic Biblical beliefs and a commitment to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the entire world."
The SBC is general in some of the doctrines that they have as a group. The individual churches still remain autonomuos. They come together as a "convention" because of the common bond that they have and to provide strength by their numbers in their efforts of evangelism, ministries and missions. A president, vice president, etc. is to provide order and leadership to the group, not so that they can be exalted as the supreme Baptist ruler.
By the way Star82 and PastorPablito,
What Church do you belong too? I guarantee it isn't any of the ones that started the Reformation. And I bet I never heard of it. If you say Baptist, then I will say ok but what type of Baptist since you can find 5 Baptist Churches in my area and none of them will agree on everthing.
Star82 and Pastorpablito,
Could you show me in Scripture where your interpretation is better than mine? Can you also show me your interpretation ofScripture matches early Christian beliefs.
At least you will come to the Conclusion that today's Catholic CHurch follows the Traditions of Paul by calling our ordained ministers "Father" and that we Catholics have historical agreement with the early Christians on the Eucharist. Please just admit that your current Churches or sects have little in common with the early church and we can call it a day.
Just admit you have little in common with the early church and if you can't then PROVE IT.
A Christian is one who believes that Jesus Christ is the Messiah of God who was sent by God to redeem all of mankind (not just SOME) from their sins. A Christian believes that the blood of the Lamb of God was the atoning sacrifice for the sins of ALL of mankind. A Christian knows that only God (NOT the POPE) can forgive sins because of the blood of Jesus. A Christian believes that the same Jesus who died, was buried, and rose again on the third day (according to the Scriptures) will return one day for the final redemption of all who believe in Him (both the living and the dead) as God. A Christian will not worship anything or anyone other than the Lord God of Creation...that includes his pastor, priest, or pope; his Bible; his family; his material trophies; his church building and members; his money market accounts; his degree of educational accomplishment; or any other thing or person!! CHRISTIANS ONLY NEED THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS AND THEIR OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. THey do not need to confess to a priest for their salvatiion. They do not need to take communion for their salvation. THey do not need to attend Mass for their salvation. Salvation is found in no other name but Jesus; for there is no other name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved.
PastorPablito,
You use a lot of Rhetoric and didn't use one line of Scripture to support your case. I gave you many verses in SCRIPTURE WHERE EVEN PAUL CALLS HIMSELF TIMOTHY's FATHER IN CHRIST. This is where Catholics get this Tradition... FROM PAUL and from STEPHEN.
If you are saying that you reject how Paul refers to himself or how Stephen calls the Jewish elders under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit written down in Scripture, then please do so.
I would rather follow Paul's guidance, then your own personal opinion.
Star82,
You and PastorPablito need to have coffee or something together. Neither one of you gave Scripture denying "Father" was used under inspiration in Scripture by either Paul or Stephen. How can these SAINTS BLASPHEME when the Holy Spirit was clearly guiding their speech?
Also, you are wrong Biblically and historically on the Eucharist. Show me one place of SCRIPTURE where Jesus say's this bread is a symbol or where the wine is a symbol. My friend even the Anglicans, Reformed Churches, Lutherans and Presybyterians believe in a type of Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Also, no where in Christian history did anyone ever write an article ever attesting that the Eucharist wasn't the real presence of Christ.
The Symbolic nature of the Eucharist was firmly rejected by Luther. Ulrich Zwingli created this idea since he like the Disciples in John 6:66 coundn't bare the teaching.
Doesn't it give you a little pause, when most of your beliefs have no historical account and all of Catholic beliefs can be seen clearly in the beginning? Do you really think that the first Christians got it all wrong in the first 400 years and now 1900 years later you got it right?
pastorpablito is right. It is msnchris70, AngloCat, and EvanCal as well as all the RCC clergy and masses who are wrong.
Anglocat,
Exactly who was it that decided that you are now the one that can say when someone is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT on an issue? After all these years of controversy, you have now cleared it all up for us. Well, I guess that settles it because you said so.
Sorry, I guess I retract all of my statemnets then. msnchris70, you are right and I am wrong because AngloCat said so.
As a Reformed Pastor, I think it behooves us all not to make rash judgements on MSN with the thumbs down. He is simply stating his belief and he backs it up with Scripture, Reason and History. Frankly, the fact he uses Scripture is good for Catholics!
Pastorlittle Paul, you may want to do your own research and be better prepared like MSN was so you can use more than just one line of Scripture to refute his 4-6 lines of Scripture. If you can refute his position well, then we can all learn from you. If you can't, then is MSN right?
I hope not, but Truth is what I'm after not conjecture. Wherever the Truth is, there is Jesus.
msnchris70
RE: Don't call Father, Master, or Rabbi:
You are confusing the secular with the spiritual.
Jesus was talking about religious leaders taking the place of God in the lives of the believers. That is exactlty what the clergy in the Catholic church does. It is a sin and God hates it. It is what the Nicolatians were doing in the early Church. It has nothing to do with having earthly fathers, and teachers which are secular.
You can't be born again without the spirit of God moving on you for salvation by convicting you of your sins and the eternal consequences that you deserve because of it, that Jesus paid the price for your sins so you don't have to, and that He rose from the dead showing victory over death, and giving you the opportunity to accept what Jesus did for you. If you accept what Jesus did for you, and you turn to Him in prayer and confess that you are a sinner deserving of eternal damnation, ask Him to forgive you of your sins, come live in your heart, and be the Lord (Boss, Master) of your life then He will and you will become born-again by the spirit of God. You become His child and He becomes your Father. A spiritual Father is different than a father of the flesh (your earthly dad).
We have many teachers that help us understand different topics or field of interest. Our parents were the first, then our school teachers, our co-workers at work, and etc. These teachers are all secular and Jesus wasn't refering to them. Our religious leaders teach us spiritual things but the religious leaders should never replace God in our life as our Teacher. Jesus said that God gives the Holy Spirit to teach us all things (John 14:26) and to lead us into all truth (John 16:13). The Catholic Church wants to replace the function of the Holy spirit in the lives of the masses. The Catholic Church wants to be Father, Master, Teacher, and Rabbi for the RCC masses. This is wrong!
Re: Jesus being in the Eucharist
Jesus is not in the Eucharist. To say so is idolatry. The Jews observe the passover as a reminder of what God did for them when He delivered them from Egyptian slavery. At passover before Jesus was crucified, He was saying to them that He is the passover Lamb whose shed blood will deliver them from spiritual death if they apply His shed blood to their hearts. His body was given for our healing and His shed blood for the remission for our sin. When a believer observes the Lord's Supper he does so as a remembrance of what Jesus did for him. The believer does not 'receive' Jesus into themselves; that a believer does when he humbles himself before God and prays for Jesus to forgive him of his sins, come live in his heart, and be the Lord/Boss/Master of his life.
msnchris70,
You just twisted the “father” passage until it looked like a pretzel. It has nothing to do with earthly father, or school teachers or even Master locks.
The Catholic Church has elevated the ones that they call “father”, including the Pope, to a position of mediator between the people and God. That is when the use of the term is wrong. To use it in the other contexts as an earthly, supportive, nourishing figure in your life is the way to use it as a sign of respect. To bow down before Popes and priests and kiss rings is wrong. And this title for him of “Holy Father” is akin to blasphemy.
You can twist it any way you want. I left the Catholic church because of their bad doctrine. And by the way, you twisted it again with the Rome version of the 10 Commandments. Go read the Hebrew version (they belong to the Jews anyway, not the Catholics!), Sabbath is number 4.
I have taken it in context my friend, the Catholic Church has taken it out of context to allow for the elevation of men to positions of power and authority. They are the Pharisees and Sadducees of today.
The Catholic leaders need to try servant leadership, not “lordship!”
And by the way, I lay that at the feet of ANY and ALL church leaders. If you are not a servant leader, you’re reading the Book wrong.
I think it is not very thoughtful to give MSN thumbs down. If you read his points on Peter-Kephas and on Call no Man "Father", he is absolutely correct. As a faithful Anglican Protestant I can see both sides, but MSN is correct that Peter was the Rock and this is historical as well as Scriptural. Calling Peter a Pebble is a new invention by anti-Catholics.
Calling no man Father is also something that is relatively new and has its roots in anti-clericalism and fundamentalism. MSN has a good point and that is the same reason us Anglicans call our Priests, "Father" much like how Paul referred to himself as Timothy's Father in Christ.
Just because MSN may not be very politically correct on a Protestant website. You must acknowledge his points as being valid and context is vital when interpreting Scripture.
I always advice a few things, read Scripture in the context, time, date, and language. Then read the earliest Church fathers to see how the earliest Christians saw it. ON these two points MSN would be Scripturally and Historically correct. Sorry fellow Protestants.
It is also good to hear that you accept Catholics as Christians, as I accept all Baptists as Christians. May we all study Scripture in context, love Scripture as both a Historical and Inspired book and follow its Truth to Christ who is the only Truth.
Peace be with you,
Chris
Pastorpablito,
You are not seriously going to bring up "LITTLE PEBBLE"Are you? Did you know that many highly conservative and well thought of evangelicals have always believed the Petros was never meant little Pebble. It was simply the Greek translation of the Aramaic.
Jesus never called Peter, Peter nor did He call him Petros either. Jesus didn't speak in Greek. He spoke in Aramaic or Hebrew and when Said, "YOU ARE KEPHA(aramaic)(cephas-hebrew) and on this KEPHA I will build my church." Mt.16:18 Even Paul referred to Simon Peter as CEPHAS. By the way, maybe you don't understand greek or latin, but you must use feminine or masculine. A rock is known to be feminine, but Peter is a man so calling him Petras makes no sense. Moreover, Jesus spoke aramaic so the Petros you refer to is only the Greek translation from Aramaic. Aramaic and Hebrew did not have a feminine or masculine gender for Rock. Peter's name is simply ROCK and not pebble. In addition, when Jesus changed people's name in the Bible like Abram to Abraham it was a BIG Deal. So, it is not unreasonable to think that it was a huge deal calling Simon, now Peter. Also, no person every in antiquity was ever called Peter, CEPHAS or KEPHAS before Simon Peter. It was a weird name calling someone rock. It would be like Jesus renaming you "Waterbottle".
The Bible mentions Peter's name 195 times which is more than any other Apostles combined. Jesus only prayed for Peter's faith to not fail. Jesus only gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven(Referring to Isaiah 22 Keys of the house of David) and finally only Peter was asked by Jesus to be chief shepherd to tend His sheep and feed my sheep. Peter made the decisions on circumcision and on what type of foods to eat. He brought in the first Christiians on Pentacost, etc. We also see historical writing always placing Peter as the head apostle and the early church fathers always referring to Peter as the Chief Shepherd.
How can you leave the Catholic Church, for a group that profess that Jesus is not truly in the Eucharist. You see in John 6:66 that Baptists were clearly like the Disciples who walked away from Jesus because it was too tough a lesson to hear of eating His flesh and dringking His blood.
I thank God everday I was a Protestant minister and I thank God everday that I memorized and researched the Bible and being a Protestant gave me my love for Christ. However, after reading the Bible and studying it I could not help but see countless verses that we as protestants skip over because they point to the Catholic Church being right.
www.catholicscomehome.org
PastorPablito,
You know I used those lines too when I was an anti-Catholic Baptist. Call no man Father heh?
What does the next line say? "Call no man Rabbi or teacher right and Master?" Yet, all Protestants as I was one call their Father, Dad; which is a synonym so you should be condemned right? Wrong. Also, have you ever called any of your teachers...teachers...professor(teacher)s or Doctors(teacher) or how about when you get a Masters degree too? You see, if Catholics are wrong on the Father issue then you guys are wrong on Master and teacher and Father too.
Maybe reading that line within the context it was written would help you. You are not using context, so it is not unreasonable to understand why you made a mistake. Jesus was speaking about the "KORBAN RULE", where Jews were trying to get out of the 4th commandment by creating traditions of Men to usurp paying and taking care of their earthly parents by giving money to the Synagogue instead. The problem was that these Jews really didn't give any money to the Synagogue, but just wanted to be cheap and not take care of their parents. The Jews who were trying to manipulate the commandments got the ire of Jesus and that is why he made this statement. We do only have one Father, one true teacher and one true Master and his commandments are always in force no matter how we try to get out of it is the point.
Hopefully this context will help you. Moreover, Stephen who was the first Deacon and Christian Martyr died while inspired by the Holy Spirit called his Jewish elders before being stoned to death "Fathers". Paul called Timothy his son in Christ and Paul was a Spiritual Father to Timothy. Calling a Priest Father is only honorific and Scripture attests to this practice and if it was bad the Holy Spirit would have certainly not called Stephen to call out Fathers, nor Paul refer to himself as a Father. 1Cor 4:15 "I became your father in Christ Jesus through the Gospel", Acts 7:2 Stephen calls Jewish leaders Fathers, Acts 22:1 St. Paul calls the Jews in Jerusalem "Fathers", Rom 4:16 -Abraham is the Father of all of us, 1Tim 1:2 "Timothy, my true child in faith", Phlm 10 "Onesimus, whose FATHER I have become in my imprisonment", 1 John 2:13 "I am writing to you Fathers"
So, if no one is literally to be called father then the Holy Spirit is wrong in inspiring these people to say Father, or you are wrong. Context, my friend, Context. Also, we have writings from teh 1st and 2nd century where all Bishops were called Father.
msnchris70,
Where do you get off talking about the Baptist’s convention and how it operates? Maybe you need to go study what a convention is and then come back and make comments.
I grew up in the Catholic Church and I am now a Baptist. If you want to talk about unbiblical, the Catholic Church hits the trifecta. Where exactly was that Pope position established, because it isn’t in any Bible I have ever seen and I’ve seen a lot (Don’t try to give me the Peter/Rock argument). What I have read is this, let’s just start with the Pope, which means father, Matt 23:9, “And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven” (NIV). That is straight from the mouth of Jesus and it does not need any interpretation. Then there are the “Padre’s or Father’s” in the local churches, same passage applies along with, 1 Tim 2:5-6, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (NIV).
Do you really want to get into the debate over Peter the pebble and Jesus the Rock? I won’t even start into the Mary issue.
But really, don’t worry about it, because I’m just using a little dry humor!
(BTW, before anyone gets in an uproar, I am not here to say that Catholics are not Christians or to bash them, but I’m not going to put up with what msnchris70 is selling. You bashed, then craw-fished with your “dry humor” remark when you got called.)
We build on the foundation of Christ and God will be the judge of what we build with. 1 Cor 3:11-15 “For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” (NIV)
msnchris70
You criticize the SBC for wanting to select a President to lead the denomination in business matters and evangelism. How hypocritical of you to judge them when you have a leader (ie, the Pope) who has taken the place of God on the earth for the masses who look to him as a spiritual father, and a master and Rabbi. Jesus said don't call anyone your (spiritual) Father, your Master, or your Rabbi (Matt 23: 8-10). But the RCC just ignores everything Jesus says just like they do in everything.
Yes, the convention establishes what their doctrinal positions are, but they are not established by a single authority (ie the SBC President) like the Pope does for the RCC. The doctrinal positions are basically discussed during the year by certain members in the denomination, then at the convention's meeting they are discussed and voted on by the representatives that each SBC Church sends. Not so in the RCC. Your Pope alone makes those declarations. Also, anyone who has ever been a part of the Southern Baptist denomination knows that each Church is autonomus and has a right to believe according to their own understanding of the scripture. Every Baptist Church I have ever attended was a part of the Southern Baptist Convention. Each Church mainly accepted what they called the Baptist Faith but not all. I attended one that was a member of the SBC and they were full gospel; that means they believed in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, and they operated in all the supernatural gifts of the spirit. This is something that the Southern Baptist Faith did not endorse. The SBC mainly deals with world evangelism. Churches collect the Lotti Moon Offering and the Anne Armstrong Offering and they give it to the convention so that the foreign missionaries can have finanical support to carry on their work in the foreign lands they were sent to. The state convention I believe takes 10% of the Churches gross receipt for furthering missions activity and support at home (USA). The President of the SBC oversees the work of the convention. He does not make doctrine and then demands everyone adhere to it to every dot and tittle or be excommunicated (d-a m-n-ed to hell forever). Every organiztion need a head.
Now the Pope's position is far above in authority, and practice. He is to the point of being a God on the earth to you all. I mean this guy even has the power in your teachings to send someone to hell because they just might happen to disagree with a position he takes if the offending Catholic doesn't repent. He has no such power with God. It is blasphemous for him to think he does.
Their is no comparison of the SBC President and the Pope. The SBC President oversees the business aspects of the convention and does not act as a spiritual dictator and guru for the SBC masses as the Pope does for the Catholics. The denomination that is not scriptural is the RCC.
To Kevin82,
Can you not see the Irony of Baptists doing something that is completely unbiblical. It wasn't Protestant bashing at all, it was a dry sense of humor. Has everyone lost their sense of humor on this board. By the way, having studied at Gordon Conwell and having been a Pastor for 20 years before becoming Catholic I fully qualify to be on this board since now I am an Evangelical Catholic. I didn't mean to offend, so I am sorry. It was just dry humor. Moreover, I am on this board originally because of Catholic bashing and my job to set the record straight. No Catholic bashing, then I won't be so active. Also, as a Christian I have every right to be here.
DiaryofCross,
Apology accepted about the Pope comment, and my apologies for defending to strongly. Peace.
Leaders who edify themselves does cause problems in every faith tradition.
chicago24:
We all know that Ethnically the first Christians were Jews, but once they accepted the saving grace of Christ they became a new creation and became Christians. They were the foundations of the universal Church thus being Catholic. In fact, the epistles of Paul were called Catholic Epistles because they were sent out to the universal Church. For someone who is a theologian I would have expected more. Christ founded His church on Peter and if Peter as the first Bishop was still considered a Jew, then it would be news to him. Peter was a Christian and a Catholic Christian at that!
Has the Southern Baptist in all of its history ever elected anyone outside of the Anglo race? I understand that they were found on racism and that the convention split because of slavery and the Southern Baptist was born. I understand they apologized for their past. Has it changed? I just want to know what bible they use and do they think heaven is an all White membership. Why the missionary journeys when we can’t get it right in these yet to be United States?
msnchris70:
I'm a Roman Catholic theologian and I hate to burst your bubble, but Catholics did NOT write the New Testament texts. . .
Jews did.
Umm...I thought Matthew, John Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, and others I can't name rightly, wrote the new testament. They were Catholic? Me thinking about their ethnic backrounds must've threw me off.
Maybe I did generalize about the pope a bit too much, I apologize. The media portrayed them too much as uplifted individuals that perhaps that slashed my thinking about what they did for the world.
Are we clear now? :D
msnchris70,
Why on earth are you continually hanging around this Protestant news service (christianpost.com is an ecumenical evangelical ministry) and bashing Protestants? Do you really think that your lame responses (e.g., "we [Catholics] wrote the New Testament too") are convincing? Go to an apologetics message board or blog; The Christian Post is not the place for this sort of argumentation and arrogance.
At least the Leadership of the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and not by men and our church has its roots in Scripture. Oh yeah and we wrote the New Testament too.
Let's see, can you find one bad Pope in the last 400 years? Nope. You will only find 11 bad Popes out of 265 Popes in 2000 years. A good 85% of all Popes lived Saintly lives where they Preached the Gospel and were solely dedicated to Christ.
When you generalize about Popes, then it shows your bigotry. Even a thoughtful and well read fundamentalist would never say that all the Popes were bad. In fact, 11 bad popes out of 265 is better odds than the first Apostles called by Christ.
Faith without reason leads to all sorts of extremism like fundamentalist and terrorism.
I'm up for leadership as long as it doesn't turn out to be another (forbid it, Lord) pope o.o
Baptists electing a President? Huh, that is not in Scripture so why are they doing it? I don't see anywhere in Scripture where a President is elected by the Apostles, but I do see in Scripture where Peter is singled out and made Prime Minister and given the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. I also see in Scripture where Jesus says to the Apostles "whoever hears you hears me". I also see in Scripture where Christ gives all of the Apostles the authority to bind and lose IN HIS NAME.
You see my friends, it has never been the Bible alone but rather the Bible plus your spin on it. Baptists electing a President to lead the SBC is so hypocritical it is funny. Talk about an unbiblical practice!
"Traditions of men"