WASHINGTON (AP) - John Hagee, an influential Texas televangelist who endorsed John McCain, apologized to Catholics Tuesday for his stinging criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and for having "emphasized the darkest chapters in the history of Catholic and Protestant relations with the Jews."
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(Photo: AP Images / Sebastian Scheiner, File)In this April 6, 2008, file photo influential Texas evangelist John Hagee of Christians United for Israel addresses a crowd of his followers and Israeli supporters at a rally at the Jerusalem convention center.
Hagee's support for McCain has drawn cries of outrage from some Catholic leaders who have called on McCain to reject Hagee's endorsement. The likely Republican nominee has said he does not agree with some of Hagee's past comments, but did not reject his support.
In a letter to William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Civil and Religious Rights, Hagee wrote: "Out of a desire to advance a greater unity among Catholics and evangelicals in promoting the common good, I want to express my deep regret for any comments that Catholics have found hurtful."
Donohue, one of Hagee's sharpest critics, said he accepted the apology and planned to meet with Hagee Thursday in New York.
"I got what I wanted," Donohue said in an interview. "He's seen the light, as they like to say. So for me it's over."
The controversy had threatened to pursue McCain throughout the campaign, potentially hurting his standing with Catholic voters. A narrow majority of Roman Catholics voted for President Bush in 2004 and for Al Gore in 2000, critical votes in close elections.
The letter came after Hagee met Friday for lunch in a French restaurant in downtown Washington with 22 influential religious activists, virtually all of them Catholics.
Hagee has cited the Inquisition and the Crusades as evidence of anti-Semitism within the Catholic church and has suggested that Catholic anti-Semitism shaped Adolf Hitler's views of Jews.
"In my zeal to oppose anti-Semitism and bigotry in all its ugly forms, I have often emphasized the darkest chapters in the history of Catholics and Protestant relations with the Jews," Hagee wrote. "In the process, I may have contributed to the mistaken impression that the anti-Jewish violence of the Crusades and the Inquisition defines the Catholic Church. It most certainly does not."
Hagee has often made references to "the apostate church" and the "great whore," terms that Catholics say are slurs aimed at the Roman Catholic Church. In his letter, Hagee said he now better understood that his use of those descriptions, taken from the Book of Revelations, are "a rhetorical device long employed in anti-Catholic literature and commentary."
He stressed that in his use, "neither of these phrases can be synonymous with the Catholic Church."
The remarkable 2 1/2-page letter was no doubt inspired by the political storm Hagee's endorsement caused. Hagee leads a San Antonio, Texas, megachurch with a congregation in the tens of thousands. He has an even wider television audience.
When he endorsed McCain in late February, Donohue and other Catholic leaders demanded that McCain repudiate him. The Democratic National Committee also weighed in, highlighting Hagee's remarks over the years.
Some commentators even likened Hagee's affect on McCain to the controversy Democrat Barack Obama faced as a result of the views expressed by his former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.
McCain initially embraced Hagee's endorsement, eager to reach out to religious voters by securing the support of a prominent Christian conservative. But he was soon forced to put some distance with Hagee. Continue >>
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"Jesus said in John 20:23, "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them: and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."
If someone sins against me personally I have the power to forgive them of their sin without them asking me for it or I have the power to hold it against them until they do."
Why are you all getting excited about this post? This is where Sola Scriptura leads you. Star has the Holy Spirit on her/his side, too.
So Star, now you think you have the power to forgive someone's sins or not? Oh my God! I don't think so. That's not at all what this passage says. This passage gives authority to the apostles to forgive or retain sins through God. That's what authority is all about.
However Star, you are not God. You are commanded to forgive someone who trespasses against you. It's not an option. You are to forgive. Period! You Star are not to retain someone's sins. Obey God.
Now get down to your local Catholic Church, you need to confess your sins of pride and unforgiveness before it it too late. God bless and make you Holy....
Tallguy1000
What commands Jesus spoke to the disciples when He appeared before them after He rose from the dead applies to all believers.
Jesus said in John 20:23, "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them: and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."
If someone sins against me personally I have the power to forgive them of their sin without them asking me for it or I have the power to hold it against them until they do.
Oh Justme984, you know where it is in the bible.... In John 20:23, Jesus told the disciples, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." You stated that it is clear that Jesus gave them power to forgive. This verse has always been a clear statement to me.
Try it sometime. Go to a Catholic Confession and confess your sins to a priest. Meet him face to face. Discuss your sins with him, tell him all about it. When he speaks "your sins are forgiven" you will feel such a weight taken off your shoulders you'll then understand the benefit of confession...
Where in the Bible do priests have the right to forgive sins??
chris70, when I have the opportunity to preach I often tell the congregation that those words are the only thing I long for when I get to heaven, not the crowns, not the rewards, but to hear from Christ that my life mattered for the cause of Christ that God used me to make a difference for Him and I remind them that Christ will say not perfectly done, but well done. I look so forward to that day!! As a song we sing in many of our churches says, "When we all get to heaven what a day of rejoicing that will be when we all see Jesus we'll sing and shout the victory!!!!"
Both Believer and MSN,
You both just put on Christ in the last few posts. We need to build each other up, and you both after all your bickering just showed everyone how we should pray for each other and love one another.
May we all take these last few posts as the Holy Spirit guiding both their hearts for reconcilliation. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ would be so proud of both of you.
MSN and Believer just taught us all so much in the last few posts. May God be glorified!
Believer,
We have butted heads quite a bit.
IN the end, it won't be denominations like you said. We will all be just Christians as one body in Christ and it will be as simple as; "Do you accept me as your savior and did you love me with all your heart and did you love your neighbor as yourself?" Well done, good and faithful servant is what we should both want to hear.
I, like you, put all my Trust in Christ and by Grace we will be saved.
See you in Heaven my friend in Christ.
I don't have a problem with confessing our sins to one another in fact I do my best to encourage the pastors of my association of the importance of having an accountability partner. Howard Hendricks says we each need a Paul, someone to disciple us, a Barnabas, someone to encourage us as well as be honest with us to include accountability, and a Timothy, someone who we can disciple and invest our life in. I can almost guarantee that 99% of every pastor who has gotten caught up in a sinful discretion did not have an accountability partner, I praise God I have several men who willingly agreed to be my accountability partner they are blatantly honest with me and not afraid to ask me the tough questions. I know the release your talking about when you share your hurts, joys, and transgressions with a trusted brother in Christ who you know loves you as Christ loves you and doesn't judge you or hold your shortcomings over you. Where we differ is you believe that the priest has the ability to forgive your sins and I believe only God through Christ will forgive my sins. As far as you being a catholic that is a decision between you and God and I have no right to question that, but the bottom line is this when you and I appear before God He's not going to ask us what denomination we were, He's going to ask what we did with His Son, Jesus Christ, did we accept Him or reject Him, our answer to that will determine our eternal destiny, in heaven there won't be any Anglicans, Baptists, Charismatics, or Catholics, etc, only children of God who accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and Lord. Needless to say we have butted heads on a number of issues, but in several of your blogs you shared that indeed you have asked Jesus Christ to be your Savior and Lord, so in closing I don't hope to see you there I look forward to seeing you there.
Believer,
I will even give you kudos for what you wrote. I will say with all due respect to you as a fellow Christian, that going directly to ABBA or Daddy is always the first thing I do. Sometimes when and if my sins are great, sometimes I just need someone to talk to. Christ gave mankind a gift of the Priesthood to forgive sins. As a Protestant I didn't like the idea, but now as a Catholic I find great peace. Most all Priests have multiple PhD's and most not only in theology and Scripture but in Psychology and in life experience.
I honestly felt that Christ was speaking through my priest when I gave my confession. I cried so much, because I could honestly feel God's grace flowing back in to me after sinning against Him and my fellow man. To give your confession to a Priest truly creates a humble and contrite heart. It is a gift that you can choose to use if you want Believer. All I will say, it is a wonderful gift.
The Church does have a lot of complexities. If the complexities are too much then I thank God you found your relationship somewhere else. I actually find the complexities of Catholicism wonderful and rich. Their view of Christ is so deep and not very simple at all. I love my deeper relationship with Christ because of the Eucharist, the Liturgy which is all Scripture, confession, etc. I love all the feast days that remind me to be a Saint and immitate Christ as best I can. I love the seasons of worship where we can adore God more specifically.
I absolutely love being Catholic. I loved what you wrote in the last two paragraphs. It was simple and concise and revealed your heart. God will judge both our hearts and how we sought Him in our lives and I pray that one day I will see you in Heaven praising Him together.
Peace.
Kudos for believer!
Mat 18:2,3 "And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
<Not a bunch of red tape, rules, if-this-then-that....just simple faith and contrition.>
believer,
Amen! Preach brother, preach!
Amen brother believer. You have hit the nail on the head!
I am going to flag all my previous blogs because these last two are I believe who and what God would have me be and becoming and be about the business of sharing with others.
Based on that why would I want or need to go through a priest or anyone else with my prayer concerns or to have my sins forgiven. If lets say I had a choice of bringing an issue directly to the President or going through a whole lot of red tape or his staff which would I pick, needless to say this is a no-brainer, Mr. President thank you for seeing me hear I am. With God it's even better I as His child have access to Him 24/7 and because He is God He's never to busy to see me and listen to me and even though He may have me wait for His answer it's not because He can't answer me immediately it's because He has a purpose for me waiting so He won't answer me immediately, the same is true when He says no. Christ no where in His Word tells me I have to go through anyone but Him to have access to my heavenly Father in fact He declares that He and the Father are one. So why would I want to go through a priest, bishop, pope, mary, or anyone else when as a child of the King I can go directly to Him. The catholic church much like the Jewish religious leaders of Christ's day have made worship of God both exclusive as well as complicated and other denominations have done the same as well. I don't agree with that, but I do respect their right to do it, but I will not be a part of it either. Because when I am either hurting or in trouble or just need a shoulder to lean on I'm going straight to my Daddy, Abba Father and no one else because I know He is always there for me and He will never leave me or forsake me. Man will let me down but God will never let me down and He's always there to pick me up! Praise the Lord and thank you Jesus!
One of Jesus biggest concerns with the Jewish religious leaders was that they had made the worship of God both exclusive and complicated to the point that only a small group of them controlled and dictated the worship of God. The book of Hebrews makes it clear that thanks to the work of Christ on Calvary not only were all the manmade rules for worship negated even some of the rules of worship established by God were no longer necessary because they had been fulfilled by Christ's death on the cross. One of the major ones was the need for any more animal sacrifices since they were a prophetic symbol of the sacrifice that Christ would fulfill as the perfect sacrifice which He did on Calvary. Another one was that the role of the High Priest was done away with since now we have Jesus Christ to be our High Priest and since by being washed in the shed blood of Christ on Calvary every truly born again believer has direct access to the Holy of Holies, the throne of God. We are told to bring all our prayer concerns directly to God through Christ our High Priest and to the throne of God. Christ declares Himself to be our Mediator before God and we no longer need to go through any religious heiarchy but Him alone. I am going to a second entry to ensure I don't run over.
IHS
It is God who gives you your call into the ministry (Pastorate). God will confirm your call to the ministry to your Pastor. God will give your Pastor the authority to set you apart for the ministry by the laying on of hands.
Acts 13:1-3
1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
IHS,
You are correct when you say “I know the Word of God is my only source that I need.” Take comfort in the fact that our Lord and Savior always quoted scripture; he never quoted from the traditions of men. You also asked this question, “if my beliefs differ from people who were personally taught by the Apostles how can I know who is right?”
As you continue to investigate the writings of the church fathers, you will soon find out that not only did they sometimes contradict one another but they also contradicted scripture. So, you are not bound by any teaching, doctrine, or philosophy that is not supported by the Word of God. We have assurance because the Scriptures maintain an unblemished and consistent testimony that never contradicts itself.
Oh yeah, we even see in Luke 19:8-9 where Jesus praises Zaccheaus for his promise of reparation for his sin. Just because Jesus may forgive your sin, it doesn't mean that damage hasn't been done to your soul. There must be reparation and you must do this yourself. Prayer helps repair your soul, giving alms repairs your soul, fasting and reading the Bible repairs your soul.
Sin always causes disfigurment in one way or the other and while you are forgiven, your soul is still wounded. Matt 3:8 "produce good fruit as evidence of your repentance" 2Cor 7:10 "godly sorry produces a salutary repentance without regret."
Confession is not a private affair in the Bible.
Lev 5:14-26 (Public confession with animal Sacrifices) in the OT.
Matt 3:6 "Baptized by him...as they acknoledged their sins"
Acts 19:18 "Believers came forward and openly acknowledged their sins"
James 5:16 "Confess your sins to one another..that you might be healed."
Believer,
There you go putting your own spin again. In Mt 9 we see where the Son of Man has the power to forgive sins right?
Is there any other place in Scripture that talks about Jesus given the Power to forgive sins to anyone????
Jn 20:22-23 Jesus breathed on them, "Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive they are forgiven and whose sins you retain they are retained." Jesus breathed on them much like Genesis where God breathed into Adam to give him life. Not only did the Disciples of God receive the Confirmation in the Holy Spirit, but they also received power to forgive sins or retain them. THIS IS VERY EXPLICIT AND PLAIN AS DAY.
Not only did Jesus give them this power, but we see historically that not one person questioned how it iwas to be lived out. If you sinned, you went to the Priest or Bishop for a public or private confession. These men who have authority to forgive sins do not do so with their own word but by the Word of God and the power of God alone.
Matt 16:18 and 18:18 Jesus gives the Apostles special authority to Bind and Loose. By the way, just so you know the word Absolve means to Loose.
We see in James that the prayers of the Presbyters does forgive sins. It is their prayers on behalf of the person and the fact they have authority given by God. "presbyters of the Church..pray over him..he will be forgiven."
You see IN SCRIPTURE JESUS GAVE MEN in his stead the power to forgive or retain sins. It is Biblical and it is historical. Could you show me any Scripture verse that denies that Jesus gave them this power? If you use Scripture to refute, then try. What you will see is that we are supposed to go to God and we are suppose to go to a Priest too. It is not a either or, IT IS A BOTH AND. After you go to the Priest and he prays over you and absolves you or loosens you from Sin, then you must receive a penance by doing extra bible reading-giving food to the poor-maybe righting the wrong-become more prayerful.
To IHS,
Continue in Seminary and get a great education. I won't lead you one way or the other, except to say that you should study ALL the Scriptures. I would also encourage you to interpret these Scriptures by yourself without anyone else help. Then take your interpretations and compare those to your Pastor, other Christians and then those of the Early Church. See where your interpretation line up.
Be prayerful and realize there is only one Truth and Truth is not a personal interpretion. God speed.
I'm sorry believer, but your authority is self imposed. The Authority given in the Bible was never self imposed. Your practice is unbiblical and you should reject it.
Now, do I think you are doing good in the name of Jesus? Yes. Do I think people can come to Christ through you? Yes. Do I think that your heart is totally sold out for Jesus? Yes.
I think you are probably a very faithful Christian who does have a calling. My only point is that your church or denomination has not retained the Gift of the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth or the power to forgive sins. If you had valid holy orders you would have those gifts because Jesus gave them to the Apostles and those Apostles gave them to the Bishops, etc.
I'm sure your doing great work and I hope you keep it up. I'm just simply showing how even you Baptists do things that are not Scriptural.
IHS
Give your problem with this Church authority issue to God and let Him help you with it. Phip 4:6-7
I will be here tomorrow but I don't know yet exactly when; maybe morning, maybe afternoon, evening, or night.
IHS
Re: I really need your help. My stomach is all upset now and I have a very sinking feeling. give me scriptures.
Philippians 4:6-7
6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
It is claimed that the "Fathers" must be competent guides, since they lived so near the days of Christ and the apostles. This is a tacit admission that the gospel which was preached by Christ and the apostles is the true standard. But that has been recorded in the New Testament; and therefore, instead of being obliged to depend on the testimony of any who lived this side of their time, we can go direct to the fountain-head, and can draw therefrom the gospel in as pure a state as though we had listened in person to the teaching of inspired men. (Fathers Of The Catholic Church: A Brief Examination Of The “Falling Away” of the Church in the first three centuries. by E. J. Waggoner)
Take heed saints and be not led away, strongly remembering this warning: “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears” (Ac 20:29-31).
Now there are certain men who have acquired great celebrity as "Church Fathers."
This term, strangely enough, is never applied to the apostles, to whom it would seem to be more applicable than to any other men, but to certain men who lived in the first few centuries of the Christian era, and who exerted a great influence on the church. As a matter of fact, the true church has but one Father, even God; therefore whatever church recognizes any men as its Fathers, must be a church of merely human planting, having only human ordinances. (Fathers Of The Catholic Church: A Brief Examination Of The “Falling Away” of the Church in the first three centuries. by E. J. Waggoner)
Take heed saints, lest you give ear to, “Yea, hath God said?” and you be led away from “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16, 17).
I just looked up Early Church Fathers on Wikipedia and it says that these men were discipled by the Apostles; Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, etc.
I don't have time to read about these guys right now, but my question is this; if my beliefs differ from people who were personally taught by the Apostles how can I know who is right? Man, this really has me in a spin. Star, I really appreciate your support.
Please stay on this post by tomorrow so I can read about these Fathers. I know the Word of God is my only source that I need. My concern is how can people who were discipled by the Apostles get it wrong so soon????
Please pray for me, because I need it. This has me so very troubled.
AngloCat
Re:The Catholics have never claimed the Pope was God, ever
Oh, really? You error again. Pope Leo XIII: "We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."
Star2,
Are you kidding me? The Catholics have never claimed the Pope was God, ever! No Anglican would ever say he was God. You are making a false statement against them.
They only believe that for unity to be accomplished that "yes" Jesus Christ is our source of unity, but Jesus gave the Keys to Peter and Peter alone. Peter in Scripture spoke for God about food and circumcission. Peter's word was binding because he had authority from JESUS.
The Pope is simply the voice for Christ on Earth. The only time the Pope speaks officially for Christ is from the Chair of Peter, which is more rare than Haley's Commet.
Stop spreading falsehoods about what Catholics believe, when they clearly do not. The Pope is the successor of Peter in an unbroken line of succession.
To IHS,
You should be worried. Without Apostolic Authority handed down from Bishop to Bishop from the original Apostles, then you have no authority to speak for Christ officially. By all means continue your studies and preach the Gospel, but if you want to become a valid Pastor then you must receive your ordination from someone who has valid Holy Orders.
IHS
Re:I have no clue what the Early fathers means? Who are these guys? Are they Apostles?
Do your self a favor, and don't give them a second thought. No they are not the Apostles. The Catholic Church claims that the early church fathers received oral teachings and traditions from the Apostles. If that were so, then their teachings would be consistent with what the Word of God teaches and they are not.
The Word of God is all you need for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness so that you may be perfect and thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Tim 3: 16-17).
“As we search the Scriptures and compare our interpretation with that of the earliest accounts we will have unity.” --Anglocat
Let us be careful concerning “earliest accounts”, or what we would call the uninspired writings that many praise. The Holy Spirit warned us what would happen after Paul’s departing.
“For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them” (Ac 20:29, 30)
Let us keep to true scripture, the original, delivered by God himself!
My pastor started our Church from scratch. My pastor was non-denominational but he came from a Baptist background I think. His Pastor who I know was a Lutheran and then became a Non-denominational Pastor. Did my Pastor's pastor have authority?
This really has me upset. I am looking at the Scriptures and see that they do have laying of hands and that it seems on the surface to be important. If we have a broken line, then do we have authority?
I really need your help. My stomach is all upset now and I have a very sinking feeling. Give me Scriptures!!! Thanks.
AngloCat
There can be no unity in the Body of Christ without Jesus Christ. The Pope, who is suppose to be God on the Earth, can not give it.
Colossians 1:9-18
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
thanks to believer and star. I really enjoyed your posts, but the whole laying of hands going back to the Apostles is really effecting me. I am at the BTU or Boston Theological Union and have met many different Christians. I love what I am learning so thanks for your support.
We have many Catholics and Orthodox who all claim Apostolic origin and they have shown me people and dates. I didn't connect their Apostolic roots with authority though.
I am very troubled. If we cannot trace our roots to the Apostles is that important or not? We obviously have a broken line of laying of hands in my church since we only started about 50 years ago. I am a non-denominational Christian.
I have no clue what the Early fathers means? Who are these guys? Are they Apostles?
Do I have to explain to you the effects of Original Sin too?? Do I have to explain that because of the Sin of Adam and Eve, that we all have a fallen nature because of that sin.
Babies are only guilty of original sin and must be baptized by their Christian parents. Nothing in Scripture supports your view of Baptism. In an infant or child Baptism washes away original sin, but the flesh is still wounded so the person is inclined to sin later in life. This is the penalty of original sin. For those who are not baptized as a baby, then we pray for God's mercy to be upon them and by his grace to be saved. A baby is assured of salvation if they are baptized and died because they have no personal sins.
Again, I'm sure other bloggers who are Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed, Presbyterian and Methodist and just these denominations alone make up the majority of Protestantism, would agree with me. Catholics and Orthodox would agree too, which makes up almost 80% of Christianity. Baptists and fundamentalists make up only a very small percentage of Christianity and it is important to remember that Baptists were shunned by mainline Protestants because of their unbiblical view of Baptism and their unbiblical view of "born again".
AngloCat
Re:Baptism erases original sin.
Oh really? Isn't original sin, the sin of Adam; that is, "don't tell me what to do I'll do what I want". If that sin has been erased then why are you still commiting that sin?
IHS
Please read my Mon May 19,2008 10:03 post to msnchris70. I discuss who gives you the authority to be a Pastor.
It is the parents faith that speaks for the Child, and through Baptism the parent promises to teach the child about Christ. Just like circumssion did in the OT.
Baptism erases original sin. You cannot enter heaven without being Baptised.
Maybe I am coming into this way too late. I am a seminary student studying to become a Pastor.
Could someone give me scriptures to support the fact that when I become a Pastor it is valid?
I thought that all we have to do is believe and go to seminary. I understand the laying of hands, but I know our church cannot trace it back very far...please help!
AngloCat
believer said:This is a major concern I have with the catholic church in their own baltimore catechism they say without apology that when a person regardless of their age is baptized in the catholic church that baptism makes them a Christian, so they teach and believe that baptism alone makes you a Christian, I have a real hard time with those faiths who say putting your faith in Jesus and being baptized is required to becoming a Christian, but baptism alone to become a Christian is just down right scary. I'm on the board of a Crisis Pregnancy Center in our area and when a nun was being considered to be a part of the board she stated that she has been a Christian since she was baptized as a baby.
AngloCat said: In the great commission Jesus told them to make Disciples of all nations by Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The only way you enter the Church as a Christian is by being Baptized.
You error AngloCat for you know not what the scriptures teach.
Jesus said
Mark 16:16 - "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Acts 16:29-31
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?
31 And the said, BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED,..."
Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ is what saves you and makes you a Christian. A baby has no way of knowing that he/she is a sinner in need of a Savior.
AngloCat
The RCC is full of error and sin but the biggest sin they have is that the clergy replaced God in the lives of the laity.
Msn,
I am willing to discuss many of the topics that you touched upon but are you first willing to comment upon the following?
"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, let him be anathema" (Canon 12, Council of Trent).
“When the law of non-contradiction is applied to both the scriptures and the teachings of your church; only the scriptures maintain a constant and unblemished testimony. Your church on the other hand has REPEATEDLY CONTRADICTED ITSELF and history bears witness to this fact.”
AngloCat
If members in your church are dying on the vine it is because they are not attached to the vine.
Some reasons that 'believers' lack faith:
"What did we do to generate unbelief?" (Quote taken from "Cardinal: Britain Must Not Be 'God-Free' Zone" article)
The answer I gave to the question:
Pastors are impotent. They preach a watered down Gospel. They compromise the Word of God with the traditions and wisdom of man. There is no call to repentance and godly living. There is no demonstration of the power of God.
Here are some reasons why people lack faith: people not really saved, lack of Lorship if they are, liberalism, miracles are not for today, lack of prayer, lack of committment
I don't care how much Authority you think your pastor has, if a believer has not made Jesus Christ the Lord of their life then they will ultimately die a spiritual death.
If Jesus is not the Authority in your life then He is not the Lord of your life.
Believer,
Your definition of Christian is a new one. The nun who spoke about being a Christian since she was baptized was Scripturally and Historically correct in her definition. You have to understand that Baptists are hyper-Reformists and went simply too far.
The Baptists have an unscriptural definition of Baptism and this is why Calvin and Luther and Wesley and Knox rejected their premise. Baptism now saves you, Baptims is the new circumcission. Your definition about Baptism cannot be found anywhere in Christianity until Ulrich Zwingli and some of his contemporaries and a few in the AnaBaptist movement.
You are incorrect biblically speaking and the Nun was correct.
I was reading another website; Catholic News Agency, and noticed that one of the oldest Apostolic Churches called the Assyrian Apostolic Church just reunited with the Catholic Church in one diocese. Over 3000 members from the Assyrian Apostolic church united with the Chaldean Catholic Church. Their Bishop, many Priests and Deacons also joined. The Chaldean Catholic Church is a very old rite withing the Catholic Church. The Chaldeans are just as much Catholic as the Roman Catholics are.
This is the first group of Assyrians who have come back in such a large number since the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD. The Assyrian Bishop explicitly said that their can be no unity within the body of Christ without the Pope have universal Primacy as he did in the earliest accounts of the Church and in Scripture where Peter received the "KEYS".
I pray someday that our leaders of the Anglican communion will soon find a way, as long as it is Scripturally prudent and not unity for the sake of unity, to be united with the Catholic Church.
May Truth prevail, may the Truth of Jesus Christ prevail.
It does come down to Authority as MSN stated. This is why conservative Anglicans have always tried to find unity with the Catholic Church, because this is what Jesus wanted. Moreover, we want unity with all our Christian brothers and sisters. We seek unity with the Catholic Church though, because of the Authority and Apostolic origin of this ancient Church.
We Anglicans have some Apostolic origin, but it is very little after 500 years of being sepparated from the original Church. Many Traditional and Conservative Lutherans, Methodists and Anglicans are trying to understand the concept of Authority. As we search the Scriptures and compare our interpretation with that of the earliest accounts we will have unity.
To not consider early Christians and their interpretation of Scripture would be unwise.
Believer,
In the great commission Jesus told them to make Disciples of all nations by Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The only way you enter the Church as a Christian is by being Baptized.
You simply cannot negate Jesus' command. Unless you are baptized, you are not a Disciple.
Star2,
You never answered MSN's Question. When he provided Scripture to support how Authority is transferred, you skirted answering it directly. Well, you skirted it and started on a whole new topic because you coudn't use Scripture to refute what he said. At least be honest when your church uses man made traditions too and doesn't always follow Scripture. Please don't make a mockery of the Truth. There is only one Truth. Either you or the MSN is correct.
Only a few Priests within the whole Anglican Communion have valid orders and valid authority, so even within my denomination there is a huge disparity of who has authority and who does not. It is because of authority, that the Episcopalians are dying on the vine and why the Anglican Communion today is breaking up at a break neck speed.
Believer,
You seem pretty reasonable at times. Read your Scriptures, but don't just put your spin on it. Do your homework, and what you will find is that without Apostolic Authority and origin your church can not be the mouth piece for Christ and you have no authority to speak for God.
Our Anglican Communion is holding on to our Apostolic Authority and origin by a thumbnail.
msnchris70
Every Church I have been a part of in my adult life has laying on of hands by the Church leadership (Pastor(s), Church Elder(s), Deacons, and sometimes Teachers) for those who have been called into the ministry whether they were called to be a Pastor, Deacon, Church Elder, Missionary, or an Evangelist. The ones that did the laying on of hands were themselves a part of a ceremony where the Pastor and Church leadership laid hands on them when they had their ordination ceremony. And it continues backwards, I'm sure, until the conception of the practice of their Church or denomination by God.
Re: Who is Jesus' Mother?
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Believer,
God's blessing on your journey. Read the Bible everday and love it because it is the HOLY WORD OF GOD and if ANY TRADITION opposes the Word of God, then you must reject it.
You may be an ex-Catholic. Like most ex-Catholics I hope you too find your way home to the only Church that has authority based on SCripture to speak for Jesus Christ. When you do come home to the Catholic Church and take the Eucharist for the first time, your life will be changed forever and you will know that being a non-CAtholic Christian was a good thing for you because it made you search the Scriptures as we all should. IN searching the Scriptures for almost 20 years as a Protestant Pastor myself, I could not help but recognize that my and many other Protestant denominations either skip over or ignore explit parts of Scripture that point directly to the Catholic Church.
It worried me greatly that my denomination varied so greatly with the early Christians on their interpretation of Scripture and their style of Worship. Now, that I am a Catholic I feel that finally I am home. I am home because my church was founded by God, not man. I am home because my interpretation of SCripture matches the interpretations of the earliest Christians who knew the Apostles. I am home, because not one Catholic docrine goes against any part of Scripture and now I can read Scripture from cover to cover and never worry if it doesn't all fit together.
Believer,
Yes God does have the right to give to whomever Authority. You are right, but your interpretation does not follow Along with how God gave that Authority? IN Scripture God gave Authority to the Apostles, In Scripture those Apostles gave their Authority by the laying of hands to Bishops, and those Bishops laid hands on other Bishops and Presbyters.
WHO LAID HANDS ON YOU OR YOUR PASTOR?????? Both you and STar2 have not answered my question. You would think the simplist question could get a straight forward answer.
Moreover, you offer other Scriptures that do not negate the need for the laying of hands to have Authority, so I'll ask you again!!!! Who laid hands on you or your pastor????
If they cannot show that they received the laying of hands from someone who got it from another valid Authority all the way back to the Apostles, then they simply do not have Authority how the SCRIPTURES EXPLICITLY SAY AUTHORITY IS TRANSFERRED.
This practice would be considered a Tradtion of men and goes directly against Scripture, so your practice of making Pastors must be thrown out using your logic.
The Glories of Mary, Translated From the Italian of St. Alphonsus Liguori:
“I say on the mercy of Mary: for St. Bernard says, we may praise her humility, and marvel at her virginity; but being poor sinners, we are more pleased and attracted by hearing of her mercy; for to this we more affectionately cling, this we more often remember and invoke.” [End quote]
More pleased and attracted by hearing of her mercy? Bernard offers a tainted drink indeed, for a poor sinner can find no heavenly mercy from biblical Mary or any other Mary, and no one should ever be guided into clinging to such a false hope. Dear reader, now take a sweet drink from a pure fount indeed.
“Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:16)
“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)” (Eph 2:4, 5)
“O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever” (1Ch 16:34)
“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Ac 2:21).
msnchris70
I have shown you scripturally that God is the one who decides who will have authority in the body of Christ.
I am reposting it so all can see.
Re:positions of authority within the body of Christ
God the Father decides who should have places of leadership within the body of Christ. There are many examples in the Word of God to illustrate my point but I will mention only a few here.
1)Jesus spent all night in prayer seeking God the Father about who to select as His disciples (Luke 6:12-16).
2) When the mother of John and James came to Jesus requesting that her sons sit at his right hand and left hand in His kingdom, Jesus answered that it was not His place to make that decision it was God the Father's place to make that decision (Matt 20:20-23).
3) After Judas Iscariot committed suicide, his office needed to be filled. The disciples sought God in who should be the one. Two men, Justus and Matthias, met the criteria of being selected for the ministry and apostleship. The Apostles prayed seeking God on who should fill the position. They casted lots (the Jews believed that God was the controler of chance) and the lot fell to Matthias (Acts 1:15-26). Matthias was God's choice.
The Body of Christ consists of people who have been born again by the Spirit of God and is the real Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the head of the body, the Church.
If a group of believers want to come together to worship God, then it is for God to decided who should be the Pastor. If they grow large enough and need teachers and deacons then it is for God to choose who will fulfil those roles. If there are a number of Churches who are like minded in the interpretation of the Word of God and they want to come together to fulfil the great commssion then it is for God to choose who will fulfil the administration duties of overseeing that effort.
If the leadership in the Southern Baptist Convention and the State Associations that are affliated with the Convention have prayed and sought God on who should fulfil administration vacancies, then that person has biblical authority and the fruit of his efforts will make known that he was God's man for the position. If they selected someone in the flesh, they still have biblical authority, but the fruit of that person's effort will make known that he was not God's man for the job.
believer was selected to be the Director of Missions for the Kentucky Baptist Association. He has biblical authority for that administrative office. You error if you say he does not.
Star2,
You wrote:
Re: Positional Authority
The only concern that any Protestant should have is if the leadership in their Church has been called by God for the position they hold.
You wrote this above and I want everyone to see it. I have shown you explicit Scripture on how Scripture tells us how Authority is bestowed. You fly right in the face of Scripture and rather than debate the issue which is impossible. You relativise it and tell me what is really important about ministers. YOU ARE NOT USING SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT YOUR REASONING and therefore by using Scripture I have already refuted you.
Either stick with Scripture ALONE or realize that Scripture plus your interpretation doesn't equal Scripture Alone.
Based on this contest. You have not proved yourself worthy. Stop posting and I'll work with Beliver and ONline.
msnchris70
If your will is to do the will of God then you would know whether what I teach is of God or of man. (John7:17)
To any of you:
If the all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are available to you, then because the Holy Spirit was given by the laying of hands for those who would become servants of God's people. Please show me a list of who laid hands on you then?
Also, that book the Trail of Blood is so funny. You can not be serious Believer in Thinking that you can trace any Baptist before the 17th Century. Your faith Tradition is historically well documented. The Anabaptist Tradition begat Baptists. This is a fact. You can't find Baptist in the 4th, 8th, 9th, 12th, 14th, 15th Centuries. But you will always find the Catholic Church.
msnchris70
Re: Positional Authority
The only concern that any Protestant should have is if the leadership in their Church has been called by God for the position they hold.
Star2,
I'm serious. All you do is throw your own personal experience in and your own interpretation.
You are not a worthy debater. Either use Scripture to defend your position or use Scripture to refute my position, but stop the round the world arguments that are tantamount to child's play.
Star2,
Thanks for your relativism. This is exactly my point. You didn't use scripture to directly refute my statement about the Holy Spirit and how the HS works. Thanks for playing, but I expected more from you than just personal experience on how to not answer my statement directly.
Believer,
The SBS has an unbiblical form of authority, so anything they teach can not be safeguarded. If this doesn't SUPERCEDE Scripture I don't know what does. Moreover, Are you waiting for a sign or something to know when they are teaching you something wrong??? You might be waiting a long time.
I know a lot of Mormons, JW's and Seventh Day Adventists who say the exact same thing,"If they teach something that is wrong, then I'll know it based on Scripture." There are at least 30 Million people combined in these groups and they are all pretty lost.
My point AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN; God gave the Apostles Authority to speak on His behalf "He who hears you hears me", he gave them authority to "Bind and loose" to "Forgive and Retain Sins" and make other servants of God which are Bishops, Priests and Deacons. You as a Christian, of the SBC TRadition, do not follow Scripture here. Your Pastors have no Authority because they do not follow how Authority was given in the Bible.
I think you should leave this sect now.
msnchris70
Unity for the sake of unity at the lost of Biblical truth is evil.
The RCC has lost biblical truth. Their teachings and practices are so contaminated with pagan thoughts and rituals that they are no longer scriptural.
Believer,
You forget that all the Disciples in the Upper room were already Baptized!!! If you have faith in Christ, then you must be Baptized. The man who was next to Jesus on the Cross, had no opportunity to be formally baptized but he had the desire.
You must be Baptized to go to Heaven. If you gain a new belief in Christ and die before you were Baptized, then you will be saved because of your desire to do God's will. Also, if you find out about Christ on the Battlefield and seek Jesus with all your heart, but have no opportunity for a proper Baptism and you die in battle, then you have the Baptism of desire and the Baptism of Blood.
Baptists, Non-Denominationals and a few other extreme groups have an unbiblical and unhistorical view of Baptism and its effects.
msnchris70
Re:The Holy Spirit was given ONLY to the Apostles to "Remember Everything". Star2, you can't remember something if you were not there.
No, I was not there but I read the Bible. God through the Holy Ghost that dwells in me will bring back to my remembrance things that are in the Bible that I need when I am witnessing to someone.
Re:The Apostles were with Jesus, and these guys were not that bright of group.
I am not all that bright either.
Re: The Holy Spirit worked in a special way just for them to allow them to remember everthing to teach God's people the breadth of the good news.
He works in a special way with me too to explain the gospel with the lost and to teach God's truth to believers.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8). What was available to the Apostles in regard to the Holy Ghost is available to me. Their ministry and purpose might be and is different in many ways than mine but what God wrought in them and through them through the Holy Ghost He can and does the same in me.
Star2,
The Holy Spirit was given ONLY to the Apostles to "Remember Everything". Star2, you can't remember something if you were not there. The Apostles were with Jesus, and these guys were not that bright of group. The Holy Spirit worked in a special way just for them to allow them to remember everthing to teach God's people the breadth of the good news. Also, they had to remember everthing since none of it was written down. Jews were famous for the gift of being able to tell stories or teachings exactly as how they were taught without variance. Oral Tradition was the ONLY way people came to Christ in the Beginning and it was passed down exactly to the Bishops.
The Holy Spirit does work in all Baptized Christians lives, but works differently depending on your calling. The HS works to sanctify us and bring us all closer to Christ. For the Hiearchy of the Church who are in Charge of God's flock as Bishops who act as Shepherds; these men Scripturally have binding and losing authority and because authority from God was always passed down by the Laying of hands only today the CAtholic and Orthodox Churches have it.
The Early church from the Apostles to the Bishops always conferred power by the laying of hands. 1Tim 5:22 do not lay hands too readily on anyone, 1Tim 4:14 Gift conferred with the laying on of hands. The Apostles conferred Authority to the Bishops and the Bishops who were also Priests were also told in Acts and Titus to appoint Priests in everytown and they did this through the Laying of hands.
My only point is that the SBC hiearchy has no biblical authority, because no one who had authority from the original Apostles continued this process through your Church. No laying on hands from someone who received it themselves from a valid source, then no authority.
You should be concerned that no Protestant church has any Apostolic Authority or Continuity from the Apostles which equals no Authority as how SCRIPTURE TELLS US AUTHORITY WAS GIVEN. Don't reinvent the wheel and don't throw out these Scriptures just because you don't do it.
Believer,
Your Tradition of being a Protestant SUPERCEDES Scripture. The early church was of one faith.
No Scripture points to those being of a diiferent mind does it? They were all one. Sepparating yourself from the Church that was founded by God, irregardless of fault which existed on both sides, does not negate Scriptures authority for unity and Paul's admonishment to avoid those who divide.
To be a Protestant today is no longer the same as the 16th Century. Today we have Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and 30,000 other Bible belivers who can't even agree on some basic core beliefs except that our Salvation is through Jesus. To be Baptists is to be of a Tradtition that was a rejection to the Reformers that they had no gone far enough. Baptists are a man-made tradition. God didn't start your group, men did.
God founded the Catholic Universal Church on the Apostles. If you can't trace yourself through the laying of hands to the Apostles, then your church has no Authority because of what Scripture says, not me. Your Baptist faith SUPERCEDES the WORD OF GOD.
Star2 and Believer,
Good morning. I actually agree with 90% that you wrote. In fact, I agree with 100% of your Scripture Quotes, but I disagree with some of your interpretation.
Star2,
The Holy Spirit was given ONLY to the Apostles to "Remember Everything". Star2, you can't remember something if you were not there. The Apostles were with Jesus, and these guys were not that bright of group. The Holy Spirit worked in a special way just for them to allow them to remember everthing to teach God's people the breadth of the good news. Also, they had to remember everthing since none of it was written down. Jews were famous for the gift of being able to tell stories or teachings exactly as how they were taught without variance. Oral Tradition was the ONLY way people came to Christ in the Beginning and it was passed down exactly to the Bishops.
The Holy Spirit does work in all Baptized Christians lives, but works differently depending on your calling. The HS works to sanctify us and bring us all closer to Christ. For the Hiearchy of the Church who are in Charge of God's flock as Bishops who act as Shepherds; these men Scripturally have binding and losing authority and because authority from God was always passed down by the Laying of hands only today the CAtholic and Orthodox Churches have it.
The Early church from the Apostles to the Bishops always conferred power by the laying of hands. 1Tim 5:22 do not lay hands too readily on anyone, 1Tim 4:14 Gift conferred with the laying on of hands. The Apostles conferred Authority to the Bishops and the Bishops who were also Priests were also told in Acts and Titus to appoint Priests in everytown and they did this through the Laying of hands.
My only point is that the SBC hiearchy has no biblical authority, because no one who had authority from the original Apostles continued this process through your Church. No laying on hands from someone who received it themselves from a valid source, then no authority.
You should be concerned that no Protestant church has any Apostolic Authority or Continuity from the Apostles which equals no Authority as how SCRIPTURE TELLS US AUTHORITY WAS GIVEN. Don't reinvent the wheel and don't throw out these Scriptures just because you don't do it.
msnchris70, God loves you.
msnchris70
Re:"I didn't realize in Scripture that the Holy Spirit was promised to you, to lead you into all Truth. I could have sworn Jesus was talking to His Apostles."
Jesus was talking to His disciples on what the functions of the Holy Ghost were. Some of them included teaching you all things, bring to your remembrance all that Jesus had said, guiding you into all truth, and showing you things to come (John 14:26, John 16:13). The Holy Ghost also convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement (John 16:8). He also glorifies Jesus (John 16:14).
The disciples received the Holy Ghost after Jesus was raised from the dead (John 20:22). The disciples are not the only ones who received the Holy Ghost. Any one who is born again by the Spirit of God receives the Holy Ghost (Romans 8:9).
The functions of the Holy Ghost as mentioned in John 14;26,16:13, operated in the Apostles' life as God used them to disciple the body of Christ, and to give them doctrine, and for some to write Holy Script. But it was not limited to just them. Paul, an Apostle but not of the original Apostles, God used to disciple believers like the origianl disciples who became Apostles did and he appeared to be more prolific. Luke, Jude, James, and perhaps the unknown writer of Hebrews were not of the original disciples of Christ yet God inspired them to write Holy Script. To write Holy Scrip and to set forth doctrine a believer must be taught and guided into all truth by God through the Holy Ghost. Therefore, we can conclude that the functions of the Holy Ghost were available to other believers just not the original disciples who later became Apostles.
The functions of the Holy Ghost, some of which are to teach, to help you remember everything, to guide you into all truth, and to show you things to come, is available to all believers.
msnchris70
Part 1
The Word of God teaches that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).
A lost person becomes born again of the Spirit of God when that person hears that he/she (hereafter refered to as he) is a sinner deserving of eternal damnation, that Jesus paid for his sins by dying on the cross for him, that God raised Jesus from the dead showing His power over death, accepts what Jesus did for him, turns to God in prayer confessing to God that he is a sinner, asking God to forgive him of his sins because of what Jesus did for him, asks Jesus to come live in his heart, and be the Lord (boss) of his life.
One of the evidences that a person has truly been born of the Spirit of God is that the believer has a changed life; he is no longer the same person (2 Cor 5:17).
God expects His children (born again believers) to walk in obedience to Him in order to obtain eternal life (Hebrews 5:9). As a believer lives for God, God reveals to him what He wants him to do in the kingdom of God (Ephesians 2:10). God also deals with the sin issues in a believer's life. As the believer lives for God, does those things that God wants him to do, allows God to remove sin out of his life, then the believer becomes more and more like Jesus.
The Word of God says that a believer can have confidence before God on judgment day if the believer has been perfected in God's love (1 John 4:17). If the believer does not have confidence but has fear then the believer has not been perfected in God's love (1 John 4:18). The Word of God also states that to be perfected in God's love the believer has to keep God's word (ie, commandments). (1 John 2:5).
Jesus said that one of the functions of the Spirit of Truth (the Holy Ghost) is to show you things to come (John 16:13). When a believer becomes born again the retention of his salvation is in the hands of God (John 17:11). If there is unforgiven sin(s) in a believer's life as he is on his death bed he will have fear (1 John 4:18). God will deal with that believer about that (those) sin(s) and give him the chance to be forgiven of that (those) sin(s) before he dies. If the believer cooperates with the Holy Ghost then the believer will be forgiven, he will have peace with God, and he will go to heaven when he dies. If the believer does not cooperate with the Holy Ghost, then he will continue to fear death because he has unforgiven sin in his life. The unforgiven believer will perish because there is no respector of persons with God (Romans 2:11). Anyone who dies in their sins will go to hell.
msnchris70
Part 2
Let me share a personal testimony that will illustrate this point.
God gave me a ministry to the elderly in several different nursing homes. In one nursing home, there was a lady whose name was Gladys. She was difficult to deal with. She cursed and gave everybody a hard time. When Gladys was ugly and cursing I would tell her that she needed to get saved. She said that she was already saved. I told her that she needed to act like she did. Needless to say I was going nowhere with her.
One day God told me to fast and pray for her salvation. So I did. Afterwards, I was spending time with her one evening and God had me tell her that she needed to recommit her life to Jesus. That she heard. I preceeded to give her the gospel. The Holy Ghost was all over her convicting her of being a sinner and that Jesus died for her. She wanted to recommit her life to Jesus and she did. There was evidence of a change in her life.
Some weeks laters I was visiting her again. When I went in her room she said that she was going to die and she was afraid. I told God that I didn't understand. I said, she just got saved not too long ago and she shouldn't be afraid to die. God told me to ask her about her past. So I did.
Gladys had a difficult past. She had been wounded real bad in life. As Gladys was telling me about it I told her that she needed to forgive or God would not forgive her (Matt 6:14-15). As she recounted the times she had been wounded I would ask he if she forgave the person. She would say "yes I forgive" or she would say "Lord, I forgive." After she recounted all the incidents where she needed to forgive she then said, "I have peace now and I am not afraid to die."
If a person, believer or otherwise, has fear on his death bed it is because he has unforgiven sin in his life. If a believer has no unforgiven sin in his life (all sins have been forgiven), then when he is on his death bed, he will have peace.
Jesus said that when you die it is either heaven or hell. When you die, if you have unforgiven sin in your life, you will perish but if all your sins have been forgiven by God through Jesus, you will go to heaven.
There is no pergatory where a deceased believer gets his sins forgiven or purged. It is either done here on the earth or it isn't done at all.
msnchris70
Re:"Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory."
That is baloney. The Apostle John said:
1 John 1:9 - "If we confess our sins, he (Jesus) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
msnchris70
Re: biblical authority
"If they selected someone in the flesh, they still have biblical authority, but the fruit of that person's effort will make known that he was not God's man for the job."
should read
"If they selected someone in the flesh, that selected person still has biblical authority (Romans 13:1), but the fruit of that person's effort will make known that he was not God's man for the job."
Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."
msnchris70
Re:positions of authority within the body of Christ
God the Father decides who should have places of leadership within the body of Christ. There are many examples in the Word of God to illustrate my point but I will mention only a few here.
1)Jesus spent all night in prayer seeking God the Father about who to select as His disciples (Luke 6:12-16).
2) When the mother of John and James came to Jesus requesting that her sons sit at his right hand and left hand in His kingdom, Jesus answered that it was not His place to make that decision it was God the Father's place to make that decision (Matt 20:20-23).
3) After Judas Iscariot committed suicide, his office needed to be filled. The disciples sought God in who should be the one. Two men, Justus and Matthias, met the criteria of being selected for the ministry and apostleship. The Apostles prayed seeking God on who should fill the position. They casted lots (the Jews believed that God was the controler of chance) and the lot fell to Matthias (Acts 1:15-26). Matthias was God's choice.
The Body of Christ consists of people who have been born again by the Spirit of God and is the real Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the head of the body, the Church.
If a group of believers want to come together to worship God, then it is for God to decided who should be the Pastor. If they grow large enough and need teachers and deacons then it is for God to choose who will fulfil those roles. If there are a number of Churches who are like minded in the interpretation of the Word of God and they want to come together to fulfil the great commssion then it is for God to choose who will fulfil the administration duties of overseeing that effort.
If the leadership in the Southern Baptist Convention and the State Associations that are affliated with the Convention have prayed and sought God on who should fulfil administration vacancies, then that person has biblical authority and the fruit of his efforts will make known that he was God's man for the position. If they selected someone in the flesh, they still have biblical authority, but the fruit of that person's effort will make known that he was not God's man for the job.
believer was selected to be the Director of Missions for the Kentucky Baptist Association. He has biblical authority for that administrative office. You error if you say he does not.
msnchris70
A believer's authority within the Body of Christ comes from God not from man.
believer
You are a Christian by regeneration of your heart throuht the Holy Ghost which evidences itself in a changed life.
You are no longer a Catholic either in your heart or in how you live your life before God.
Being on any Church role does not make you anything other than a member of that particular organization.
I don't see how being on a parish's church role makes you a Roman Catholic. If you don't give mental assent to their teachings and their practices as the way to God the Father and eternal life, then how can you be a Catholic? Doesn't giving mental assent to the teachings and practices of the RCC make you a Catholic?
Maybe you should write the Parish Priest that presides over the Church where your name appears on their roles and ask him to remove your nameand explain to him why. That would be a great way to witness to him the truth don't you think?
msnchris70
The teaching of a purgatory in 2 Macabbees runs counter to all the teachings Jesus gave on heaven and hell. If Macabbees was inspired by God then the teaching in it would be consistent with the teachings of Jesus. It obviously is not for Jesus taught that once you die, where ever you end up it is forever. If you die in your sins, you go to hell. You don't go to purgatory to be purged of sins you weren't forgiven for here on the earth. If you die with your sins forgiven, you go to heaven. Heaven is forever. Hell is forever.
The truth is either given in 2 Macabees or it is given by Jesus. If you accept Macabees then you are calling Jesus a liar. If He is a liar then He is not the Christ and you are not saved and are still dead in your sins. There is no reconcilation between Macabees and what Jesus taught.
The RCC is notorius for thumbing its nose in the face of God's Word. What Jesus says don't do, you do. The RCC needs to stop trying to make the Word of God say something that it does not say. Your whole religious institution is based on man. The RCC denies anybody enslaved to it the right to have a personal relationship with Christ. You will never find Jesus in all those rituals. You claim that you have one. I say you don't. All you have is a personal relationship with a ritual that man says you have to do. No where are the practices and teachings of your religion in the Word of God. I know you don't see it that way but it is true. It will take God to remove the blinders off your eyes to see the truth. Hopefully, someday He will and when He does hopefully you will swallow your pride and renounce Cathocolism and leave that ungodly Church called the RCC and start worshipping God in spirit and truth.
If you don't repent you will perish.
believer
Re:In fact there is a possibility I am a Christian who is both a Southern Baptist and a Roman Catholic.
Please explain.
msnchris70
Re:Authority over the Body of Christ.
The Church consists of people who have been born again by the Spirit of God and is refered to as the body of Christ. The head of this body is Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus Christ is the AUTHORITY of the Church not man.
Msn,
I am willing to discuss many of the topics that you touched upon but are you willing first to comment upon the following?
"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, let him be anathema" (Canon 12, Council of Trent).
“When the law of non-contradiction is applied to both the scriptures and the teachings of your church; only the scriptures maintain a constant and unblemished testimony. Your church on the other hand has REPEATEDLY CONTRADICTED ITSELF and history bears witness to this fact.”
believer,
I too have enjoyed your postings; it is a blessing to read and see scriptural support for what one believes.
I have to step out for a bit; will be back to respond.
If your Hiearchy of the SBC did not follow how Authority was passed down in the Bible, then they would have no authority right? You can call them the same names like Bishop, Priest and Deacon, but unless they become these titles using the same Scripture to support their authority then my friend they have no authority. You can't just make yourself an authority, and this is what Luther did and Calvin, etc. Only the Bishops of the Church make binding decisions.
So, maybe you might have a Bishop. I guarantee you he didn't get his authority the way the Bible prescribes it. This is my point. If Joe blow gives you his authority and he had no authority to start, then is it worthwhile and should you follow his teachings about Christ when he has no authority. Only Bishops with Apostolic succession have authority to bind and loose.
Isn't it odd that the news topic was that Pastor Hagee apologized for his comments that misrepresented Catholic beliefs. I would say that with all the explanations provided here that perhaps additional misrepresentations could be cleared up as well:
* Catholics do not make saints secondary mediators, but rather ask all believers to join their prayers with ours to God on our behalf (Rom. 15:30)
* Catholics do not believe that they work their way to heaven, nor work their way a second time to heaven from a state called Purgatory. It's all God's grace and the redemptive work of Jesus.
Perhaps the "question behind the question" is "what would you do if you found out that, like a modern day Saul who persecuted--unknowingly--the Church that Jesus founded, you were doing the same thing?"
Would you then become a member in Jesus' Church? What would your family and friends say if you told them that Jesus' Church was not overcome by the gates of hell as it says in Scripture?
Brothers and sisters in Christ, let us all forgive each other for our misunderstandings about each other. It's across the board. Go back and read the writings of the earliest Christians, the ones who learned Christianity from the Apostles themselves.
Then come home to the Church that Jesus founded. He's been waiting.
More stuff on Purgatory.
The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven
It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59). When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14).
Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.
I hope this helps.
Believer,
My point again EXACTLY. Your interpretation of Scripture is what is different about the Hiearchy of the Church, but you used no Scipture to support the fact that SBC especially do not use Biblical titles like Bishop or Priest. You changed it to become Pastor. Pastor only describes the function of the Priest, Bishop or Deacon. Very unbiblical.
You didn't answer my question. How was Authority passed from the Apostles to the Bishops??????????? Use your bible.
Scriptures that Support Purgatory:
Purgatory by definiting is the purging love of fire of God. Catholics defined the word Purgatory only to describe what scriptures revealed to us about how some will be saved. Again, Purgatory is not a second chance. When you die you get Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is the judgment seat of Christ for those who are saved, but must be further cleansed before they are allowed into Heaven. Again, it is ALL ABOUT GOD doing the work in cleansing us, not about us in anyway.
It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.
Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.
Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."
Believer,
I am a Christian who happens to be very Catholic and probably very much a Calvinist at times too. As a Catholic I love Scripture, Tradition and the Teaching Authority of the Church. As a Calvinist I constantly memorize Scripture to use as my armor of Christ, my sword of the Spirit.
I will tell you Believer, that if one day we can all agree again on One Faith then I don't care the title they give us. If they call us all just Christians again, then I am up for that. the problem is there will always be a heretic like a Mormon or JW who calls themselves a Christian and you and I know they are not. This is why in the 1st century we see the early church call itself Catholic refering to the only church founded by the Apostles and thus any church that could not show evidence of an Apostle starting their Church, it must be rejected. Catholic means universal, but it also means "according to the Whole" which meant according to the Whole of the Apostles.
Believer,
MY POINT EXACTLY. So you agree with me this is the official leadership then, which is great. So you must be a Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist. I guarantee you ONLINE4HIM would disagree with you big time about Bishop, Priest and Deacon. This is my point exactly. Protestants are a moving target, since none of you can agree. Again it gets back to Authority.
I am glad you agree about Bishop, Priest, and Deacon. Yes, we are all members of the Royal Priesthood because of Christ. Now that we agree on that, how in the Bible were they made Bishop, Priest and Deacon? Only special Men were called to be Apostles and only special men were picked to be a Bishop, Priest and Deacon. Although we all share in this ministry through the Priesthood of all believers, some were picked to take a further role in being servants to the Body of Christ.
Again, how did Bishops, Priests and Deacons receive their Authority??? It is in the Bible.
Also, the word Pope only means Father and the term Father is used Heavilly by Paul and Stephen. The word Cardinal means hinge and applies to the action of an Archbishop. The word Cardinal is not in the Bible and neither is Cardinal when referring to the four cardinal virtues, which do exist. The word Trinity is not in the Bible, but we should still believe it right?
The exact word need not be in the Bible, but its concept must be. The word Lutheran, Methodist, Anglican, Protestant are not in the Bible but you don't see me saying that you couldn't be christian just because your denominational name isn't in the Bible right?
Believer,
Since Protestantism, as I well know, has over 30,000 denominations today. For me to assume what you think is extra-biblical would be a grandiose assumption. Since half of the protestant church would agree with Catholics on some doctrines, and the other half wouldn't.
Could you make a list in this email blog? Thanks a bunch.
I think you list Purgatory and few others. Please rewrite the list, so I can have at it. I will provide Scripture verses in support of our beliefs. The main point is, not the fact I can support my position using Scripture, but whether you agree with it. Never in the Bible or the early church was doctrine decided by lay people like you and I. It was decided by those who have authority and that was the Apostles and their successors.
The key question after I go through this exercise with you will all come down to AUTHORITY and who does the Bible reveal who has Authority over the Body of Christ.
Believer,
You seem more rational, than Online or Star2. I have never said that only Catholics are saved, and as a former Catholic you should know this. The Catholic Church at Vatican II, only shared that the fullness of Truth resides in the Catholic Church and that there are elements of Sanctification and of Truth found outside the Catholic Church in other Christian communities.
The Catholic Church's official position knows that we are saved by Grace, and because of that even though depending on denomination you may reject elements of Truth from the original Church you may still be saved by Grace.
It is obvious that you were improperly taught as a young Catholic, and I apologize for that. Nothing worse than a bad teacher in a position of Authority. They will be judged.
Jesus founded a Church on the foundation of the Apostles. We are a Apostolic Church in origin, and because Protestants left Apostolicity they also left having any authority on behalf of Christ. Having Apostolic Authority was important in the Bible and only the Apostles made Bishops and the rest of the Clergy, and those Bishops made Bishops and so on.
No where in the Bible can you find a verse that supports being a Protestant.
Also, one more thing. I am only ask you for three things so don't get in an uproar by the way.
In the Scriptures, and historically the early Church was run by Bishops, Priests and Deacons after the Apostles and these people were given authority by Christ.
Could you use Scripture ALONE to show me where this Authority of Bishops, Priests and Deacons stopped?
Scripture ALONE and FAITH ALONE, talk about Where's the Beef?
Online,
I will be happy to show Scriptures to support every Catholic Dogma.
Since Protestants only have two doctrines: Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidei. Why don't you start since you don't have that much to work with.
Please use Scripure ALONE to support the Doctrine of Scripture ALONE. Again, to have such an explicit doctrine it must be explicit.
Please use Scripture ALONE to support your doctrine; FAITH ALONE. Also, please using Scripture define FAITH.
Please be objective. Let's say you will come across a Scipture that supports your position, then please be objective and find Scripture that contradicts it. If it is explicitly contradicted, then we must throw it out. AGREED?
This ALONE will be an impossible task for you.
Online,
I am glad you are finally with me on something where I said that unless you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ it doesn't matter what system you belong.
Good. You and I agree 100% with that. Ok, now that you have that personal relationship with Christ what does the Bible say and what should you do???
-Going to Church is something you should do, because it supports your personal relationship
-Taking the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist, is good for you because it shows your are obediant and it shows that you want the True Presence of Christ in you all supported by Scripture.
-Following the 10Commandments is also something you should do if you have real faith.
You see, we define faith differently. Catholics define faith as not only accepting Jesus as our sole savior intellectually, but we accept Him in our minds and our hearts and because we accept Him, then we are called and built for good works.
Online,
I will agre with you 100% that Scripture should be used for reproofing. So, reproofing means to make certain that a doctrine or a teaching does not go contrary to Scripture right?
The early church, which is the Catholic Church used Scripture for Reproofing.
Could you do me a favor and show me where I have to use the the Scriptures Alone? Where in the Bible does it say explicitly where I have to use only Scripture?
believer,
The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him - Psalm 28:7.
"I look forward to hearing their responses and to msnchris70 I am reminded of the little old lady in the Burger King commercial who famous quote was "Where's the Beef?" in my case "Where in the Bible?"
Lol, that burger king commercial with that little old lady is a classic! It would be cool to see a similar one with "Where in the Bible?" This was the example that Jesus himself used, "it is written", "have ye not read", "how readest thou", "did ye never read in the scriptures", etc.
"to use specific biblical chapters and verses ALONE to support their defense of the various teachings"
This would be nice, huh?
God bless
Msn,
Also, your statement which you posted on “Franklin Graham Under Fire for Olympic Evangelism Comment” where you said, “Whether Jew or gentile, Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox. If you don't have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter what you do or what denomination you belong. It only matters if you put your trust in Jesus alone for your salvation.”
"Jesus I trust in You"
Amen! I agree with this statement of yours but for the record know that your comment flies in direct opposition to the official Roman Catholic position. It anathematizes everyone who puts their faith in Christ ALONE.
"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, let him be anathema" (Canon 12, Council of Trent).
is irrelevant today. Remember, what Jesus said, “They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will THINK that he doeth God service – John 16:2.
“. . . you only offer me your interpretation with no support”
When the scriptures are read and interpreted in their proper context they can support themselves. If you were sincere when you stated that we should “reproof any doctrine that goes against Scripture” – then you should be willing to abandon many of Rome’s doctrines that are not found IN and not supported BY Scripture.
Perhaps, if you read the following verses you would understand the purpose and role of the Holy Spirit in the believer’s life.
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” – Romans 8:9.
“Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world” - 1John 4:4.
“Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit” – 1John 4:13.
“You are a fundamentalist and other mainline Protestants would reject you.”
I disagree. These labels in themselves have drastically changed in meaning over the years and so to charge me with them is interesting. The only Protestants who would support your position are the liberals and those who adhere to higher criticism as they interpret scripture. As far as your stake burning comment; this is not the 16th century, so this practice and solution that many have used over the centuries
A little later you said, “We must always use Scripture as it was intended; to learn the will of God and to reproof any doctrine that goes against Scripture.” I agree with this statement, however, by teaching unbiblical dogmas as the Immaculate Conception you actually contradict yourself.
By the way; you have not thrown scripture at me as you claim. You have mostly quoted the church fathers who by the way have often contradicted one another and the Catechism.
Oh, and for the record, I never said, “I was against education” – let us stick to the subject matter instead of trying to misrepresent one’s character. The real issue IS about the SCRIPTURES; as you yourself have stated, “to reproof any doctrine that goes against Scripture.”
It is interesting to me how many utilize the “hate” word when others disagree with them. This is nothing more than a smokescreen in order to change the subject and divert ones attention away from the topic at hand. You also stated, “I didn’t realize in Scripture that the Holy Spirit was promised to you, to lead you into all Truth. I could have sworn Jesus was talking to His Apostles.”
Msn,
“Questionable arguments that have no bearing on official Catholic teaching”
The real questionable arguments are the ones not supported by the Word of God. For example, you stated, “Full of Grace means without stain and that is how the earliest Christians understood this.”
Let us truly go back to the earliest Christians and see what they taught, Paul states – “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” - Romans 3:23.
“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one” - Romans 3:10. Mary herself says, “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour” – Luke 1:47. Mary along with all mankind needed to be redeemed; she was a sinner like the rest of us. She was NOT immaculately conceived as Rome teaches.
Paul goes on to tell us - “For there is one God, and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; - 1Timothy 2:5.
Here are a few lines from “Daily, daily sing to Mary (A)” taken from The St. Gregory Hymnal and Catholic Choir Book:
Daily daily sing to Mary,
Sing, my soul, her praises due;
All her feasts, her actions worship
With the hearts devotion true.
Let us agree to rebuke such a song with the word of God!
I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth. My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad. (Ps 34:1, 2)
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Mt 4:10)
Let no man sing such a song, and if he finds it written on his heart, then let him run to God for a clean heart. Let us be obedient to God and keep Mary in the right biblical perspective. Stay strong and be not deceived as many others, who have embraced pagan goddess worship under the guise of honoring of Mary.
Online4him,
You are a fundamentalist and other mainline Protestants would reject you. If we were in the 16th Century, the Calvinists and Lutherans would have burned you at the stake never mind us Catholics. You barely have anything in common with fellow Protestants, which is typical for most Fundamentalists who come from an extreme Baptist tradition.
Your interpretation of Scripture can only be backed up with what you feel. Maybe you even read the notes in the margin of your Bible to understand it a little better. Good for you. When I throw Scripture at you, you offer no objective response. Rather, it is always countered with a Sardonic attitude like "Whatever I say goes".
Then you say silly things about me not providing you with Scripture and only giving you the Early Church fathers. For anyone who has read my posts in the past, this shows you to be not very genuine. In fact, I have not only given you Scripture but I have also given you the earliest interpretations of those Scriptures by using the Earliest Church Fathers who most mainline Protestants accept as authoritative. I also give the Scriptures using context of language and time frame.
You do none of this, you only offer me your interpretation with no support.
Online4him,
Why are you so against education? Is it because when you become educated your mind opens up to a wider view? Is it because you might feel afraid that what you know will fall down like a house of cards if you open yourself up to historical record.
As an example, you take your interpretation of Scripture over
Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Irenaus, Augustine, etc. Are you afraid to compare your beliefs to these early Christian leaders? You are.
The Question is not about Scripture at all. The real issue is, should an individual like you be able to interpret Scripture independantly outside the context of the Body of Christ. The answer is yes and no. You may interpret Scripture as long as it doesn't go against the main core doctrines of Christianity. You see, the early Jews didn't interpret the Bible for themselves because God gave them Overseers and teachers to help them. Jesus did the same thing with the Apostles and their successors.
You simply reject the Apostles authority to pass authority down the line. You are an extremist and nothing will ever satisfy you. I can easilly throw Scripture for Scripture verse in a debate, but you will reject my use of Scripture because it doesn't hold to your interpretation. I didn't realize in Scripture that the Holy Spirit was promised to you, to lead you into all Truth. I could have sworn Jesus was talking to His Apostles.
You are historically and contextually challenged. If I were you, I would probably hate the Catholic Church too because their beliefs match those of the Apostles and yours' do not.
What is it like to call yourself a Christian and yet have barely anything in common with the early Christians or Apostles for that matter? No wonder you posts come across as so angry.
msnchris70
do you understand my motive for doing what i do?
Online4him,
You are famous for the straw man approach. You build questionable arguements that have no bearing on official Catholic teaching.
Also, in previous discussions I've done nothing but throw Scripture at you in defence of my faith and unlike you I was able to marry those Scriptures with what the early Church believed.
I can easilly go toe to toe with you using Scripture. The issue is clear when my interpretation of Scripture is supported historically by people who knew the Apostles, and your interpretation of Scripture can't be found historically by reliable sources before the 18th Century.
Believer,
John the Baptist did Baptize people, Yes. Was John a Baptist, no. He was a Jew who became a Christian. The Church was not built on John the Baptist and all his followers became followers of the Apostles. The Apostles are the foundations of the Church chosen by Christ. While John the Baptist was a cousin of Jesus, he was not chosen by Christ nor given any authority. The Apostles had authority because of Christ.
I'm not sure if you are joking or not, when you say that Baptists can trace their line back to John the Baptist. No scholar worth his or her weight would ever make such a statement, when you can easilly find the beginning of Anabaptists beginning as a reaction to the Reformers.
Baptists are not Protestants in the sense of being tied to the Reformation. They are Hyper Protestants who took the reforms of the reformers and drove them to their extreme ends. Historically, Calvinists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists hunted down and persecuted Baptists primarily for their unbiblical and unhistorical view of Baptism.
Their is no true scholarship that can trace any form of Baptists before the Anabaptist movement in the late 16th or early 17th Century. Also, Baptists in particular split off from one another so much in their first 100 years it is hard to trace what being a true Baptist is and trust me the Baptist tradition bares little resemblance to the practices and beliefs of the Apsotles. Baptists tend to reject anything historical in nature because it usually shows them to be on the wrong path. While having said all this, I still as a Reformed Pastor accept Baptists as my fellow Christians because of their core teachings on Jesus.
...he said Hurricane Katrina was God's judgment because "New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God." He has written that the feminist movement represents "a rebellion against God's pattern for the family."...
People who were hard workers, did not drink or smoke or engage in rowdy behavior, went to church and donated their time LIVED in New Orleans. I THINK I WOULD KNOW. How dare he say something as disgusting as people who lost their homes and relatives DESERVED it. You know what I think Hagee, I think God will judge all when the time comes; and he will NOT support hate speech such as this. and the feminist movement was the greatest challenge for women, no not just because of abortion and lesbian rights issues, but because of sexual discrimination and sexual harassment.. for fair opportunity and the ability for women to advance themselves socially and educationally... to not live as submissive servants to men. WHO does this man think he is to invoke the bible to purposely demean women and the poor. he is an offensive embarrassment to all people who have struggled, either throughout Katrina or in the feminist movement. Go back to your MANSION, Hagee.
Msn,
Scripturally challenged? Hmmm. . . . if I recall correctly, the last time we chatted, you did not respond to my last post which highlighted the many pagan customs and practices that the “Roman” Catholic Church inherited from pagan Rome. It is conveniently advantageous for you to continue to quote from the church fathers since you cannot find any scriptural basis to support the many extra biblical dogmas and practices that the Catholic Church has adopted.
When the law of non-contradiction is applied to both the scriptures and the teachings of your church; only the scriptures maintain a constant and unblemished testimony. Your church on the other hand has repeatedly contradicted itself and history bears witness to this fact.
believer
Did you say in one of your posts, that got deleted, that you were the Director of Missions for the SBC?
Believer,
The following groups are listed in the “Trail of Blood” as early Baptists. But they do not sound Baptist at all.
1 Montanists denied all second marriages, even after the death of the spouse. They required all virgins to wear veils in church and denied the forgiveness of sins, thus making a movement without hope..
2 Novatianists taught that no sin was to be forgiven after Baptism. They too denied second marriages under any circumstances. .
3 only valid when performed by a Donatist.
4. Paulicians believed in the plurality of gods, held that all matter was bad, rejected the Old Testament, denied the incarnation, and said Christ was an angel. They refused to honour the cross by saying Christ had not been crucified.
5. Albigensians believed in two gods, one good and the other evil. They rejected all sacraments, and declared it was sinful to marry. This promoted sexual permissiveness. Pregnancy was to be avoided and abortion was promoted.
6. Catharists were followers of all the heresies of the Albigensians.
7. Waldenses taught that the Church should have no property and condemned tithing. However, they accepted the Holy Eucharist as the Body of Christ
Hyperion,
I certainly did not flag you, but I think your posts are hilarious. Stay away from drinking so much coffee with so much sugar. Your posts are a bit silly at best, or since you use the word Daft then stop drinking so much bloody tea with your Bickies.
Online4him,
The Bishop of Rome historically has always had Primacy among all the Bishops of the Universal(Catholic)Church since there was only one Church with one faith. You cannot have an ecumenical council without the Bishop of Rome signing off on the meeting.
You obviously never heard of Clement who was the Bishop of Rome in 88 AD. Clement was the fourth Bishop of Rome and sent a letter of admonishment to the Corinthians, much like Paul had in the Espistle to the Corinthians. This letter is not inspired, but it is a historical record of the power and authority of the Holy SEE of Rome, and the letter was well received by the Corinthians although they were not of Clement's diocese. Clement shows his universal primacy even in the year 88AD, while the Apostle John is still alive.
The Pope or Bishop of Rome is one of many bishops through the universal Church, but because it is the See where both the Apostle Paul and Peter died and they were the greatest of Apostles and because Peter had the Keys of special authority, the seat of the Bishop of Rome was always seen by the other Churches as having universal primacy.
Recently, the Orthodox Churches convened and agreed that within the Structure of the Universal Church, the Bishop has Primacy. They are now searching the Scriptures and historical accounts of how the Bishop of Rome back then exercised that Authority.
ONLINE YOU ARE HISTORICALLY AND SCRIPTURALLY CHALLENGED.
such daft fools you are who keep flagging my comments.
Im not going to back down from my stance
AN ENEMY TO SATAN
AN ENEMY TO THE VATICAN
this is why i am loving my life, making all the right enemies. My enemies are enemies of God, and the pope is one of them.
WHOEVER FLAGGED MY COMMENT, I CHALLENGE YOU!
If you cannot defeat me in debate, then i can extend to you two options:
Contrive a rebuttal that can surpass and exceed the Word of God
or Fight me man to man on my equaled terms, and this involves fighting me with Eskrima weapons. To me, God has shown me what it means to stand up for your pride and honor in Him by defying your oppositions, physically when all else fails.
Should you choose the latter, i'll provide the place you can defy me at. Whoever wins takes victory in every sense of the word, and whoever loses must NEVER again stand against the victor.
"I just want to put an end to my oppositions by giving them their deepest desire, to fight, this is in my enemies' hearts.
If given the chance, 15 minutes in a sealed room with the pope, me with my bible, and him with his black books, HE WILL be trying to claw out my throat and kill me before too long, guaranteed! As a child of God, i'll always be on to him and his genocidal schemes without a doubt!
***I don't know for certain, but i believe this sort of thing happens in the bible on a number of occasions, where a liar fights the speaker of truth to make his lies true. any citations on the matter?
When His apostles were disputing about leadership matters, Our Lord called them together for a disclosure of His organizational plan. He said, “Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall NOT BE SO AMONG YOU: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant.” (Matthew 20:25-27) From this, it is clear Jesus was strongly opposed to any “prince” or “princes” exercising dominion over His flock.
Historically, it was not until the 3rd century, nearly 200 years after our Lord’s return to His heavenly throne, that a bishop of Rome – one of hundreds of independent bishops existing at that time – cited Matthew 16:18 as evidence Peter had been appointed bishop of Rome and head of the Church. This was a brazen grab for power by Calixtus 1 whose interpretation of Matthew 16:18 contradicted that of the leading theologians of his day. That grab for power died an ignominious death when Tertullian, bishop of Carthage, and others, called Calixtus 1 a “usurper.” From our vantage point 2000 years later, it is unimpeachable proof that Rome lies when it claims the office of the papacy has been in existence from the time of Peter.
msnchris70, EvanCal, and all who don't know me
For the record, I am female.
EvanCal
Re:Also, here is a quote that I don't understand. "What man thinks is unimportant. It only matters what God thinks. My views are not extreme according to the Word of God."
I mean it in the same sense as Galatians 1:10 (see Gal 1:6-10).
I don't need extra-biblical hand me down traditions of the early Christians in regard to their worship or their teachings they supposedly received directly from the Apostles. If their teachings are from the Apostles then those teachings will be reflected in the Word of God.
Everything I need to know about the early Church is in the Word of God. Everything that I need to know about what the Apostles taught are in the Word of God.
The Word of God is sufficient for all things. Nothing else is needed.
Believer,
Well, my friend, that is a very good question. Here is the answer, as best as I see it. None of us who go to these meetings are active missionaries to far off places. As Baptised Christians we all disciple people everyday and bring people to Christ close to home. You may or may not be surprised and how many people do not know Christ in your back yard.
The mission of the Church is to evangelize and disciple people and spread the Gospel of the Lord. The problem is, we need meetings like the one I recently attended because many pagans and many seculariists do not believe Jesus came simply because none of us Christians has the exact same faith. By Christianity splintering into so many peices, non-believers have a hard time understanding why if we follow the same God and worship the Same Trinity, then how can we have such variation? This is a huge obstacle for many people.
You are also assuming that by having these meetings, that evangelization, discipleship and spreading the Gospel are not happening congruent to our meeting. We are and we do. We must have these meetings and seek unity in faith, so that all might know that the Father sent the Son to redeem us and that all might be saved through Jesus Christ.
Our goal is to create as much of a unified voice as possible, so that our division does not become the obstacle. We are more convincing when we speak with one voice and are all on the same page.
Does this help?
To QueCat, Believer and Star2,
I truly appreciate our recent discussions. I wish you all very good weekends and may God's grace fill you to continue your work in Christ.
My next ecumenical meeting should be a doozy. It is titled, "Do protestants make too little of Mary and Do Catholics make too much of her?" I believe ever major Protestant denomination will be present. I think it is scheduled to be in Quebec, Canada. Please pray for the conference.
In my view, I know some Catholics who make way too much of her. I have also found Catholics that call her blessed like Scripture says, but beyond that it is all about Jesus. I have met fellow Protestants who absolutely hate the word "Virgin Mary" and anything positive about her, and I have found other Protestants who today are thinking we have gone to far and that we should honor Jesus' mother, but what does that mean and how can that be supported Scripturally. I think the Catholic over-veneration of her is in response from the Reformation and I think the Mary-Bashing also came to be at the same time. Much like when a couple breaks up they just tend to hate anything that was dear to their former partner. It is important to remember that most Reformers like Luther had a very special love for the Virgin Mary. Did we polarize because of the breakup?
It is this characteristic of the Fathers which makes them so valuable to advocates of a cause which has no Scripture evidence in its support. Let a person once get the idea that the testimony of the Fathers is of value, and you may prove anything to him that you choose. (Fathers Of The Catholic Church: A Brief Examination Of The “Falling Away” of the Church in the first three centuries. by E. J. Waggoner)
Stay strong saints and be not led away from the word of God into uninspired writings, apostasy, vain traditions, idolatry, and pagan infusion. Take heed to the word of God: “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears” (Ac 20:29-31).
Believer,
Thank you for your post. Your personal experience of Catholicism was just that, a personal experience. I will also say there are many Protestants who go to bible school and don't find Jesus until they entered the Catholic Church. Very sad both ways.
The ecumenical dialogue and conference I attended had only a few Baptists and they were not of the SBC. We were discussing whether or not the Sacraments actually infuse Grace, or are they just ordinances that by adhering to them we show our obediance to God. It was a very fruitful discussion. Since most Baptists reject the idea of Sacramentalism, this is why they sent a very small group of pastors. Those who attended were Protestants of the Reformation, Catholics and Orthodox.
In working with Catholics for many years now I can say whole heartedly that none of their Doctrines deny the saving Grace of Christ. They do; however, have doctrines that they say come from the Apostles that are not explicitly in Scripture. The Catholics maintain that they are implicit in Scripture and follow how the earliest Christians understood the Apostles' teachings.
We are still in debate about those doctrines like the Assumption of Mary and the Immaculate Conception.
We also have to understand as Evangelical Protestants that the Catholics and Orthodox alike come from a Patrimony and history that is far deeper than ours, so it is our job to historically go back in time and see if these Doctrines are truly unChristian. There is much exploration both sides have done and I can tell you first hand a few of my observations over the last 20 years.
The average Catholic has begun doing a lot more Bible Study because of their interaction with us, and the average Protestant is very interested in learing about the Early Church Fathers.
Star2,
Fair enough about the education, just don't shun those who are not satisfied with their own interpretion of Scripture and seek wisdom through research. We can learn a lot from the early christians.
Also, here is a quote that I don't understand. "What man thinks is unimportant. It only matters what God thinks. My views are not extreme according to the Word of God." You seem to put what you think above anyone else, and you don't know what God thinks for certain so you like all of us can only guess. I've seen many men who love God, yet do things that are clearly not of God. They think they are doing the will of God and interpret Scripture very differently to others. When we expose these people to other Christians and their thoughts, and expose them to the earliest Christians who personally knew the Apostles then they are open to changing their opinion.
I am with you, brother in Christ, Truth is the only barometer. With Catholics or any other Christian group I don't give one inch if it is contrary to Scripture. To have a Doctrine that is explicitly or even implicitly against Scripture should be thrown out on its ear. Moreover, not all Tradition of men is bad. Some is good, some is bad. Good Tradition affirms the Word of God, Bad Tradition negates it.
Who flagged HyperionOverseer? Instead of flagging him, why don't you give a rebuttal instead.
EvanCal
Seminary is not God's will for my life.
Here are a few lines from “Hail Virgin, dearest Mary” (Queen of May) taken from The St. Gregory Hymnal and Catholic Choir Book:
Hail Virgin, dearest Mary!
Our lovely Queen of May!
O spotless, blessed Lady, Our lovely Queen of May.
Thy children, humbly bending,
Surround thy shrine so dear;
With heart and voice ascending,
Sweet Mary, hear our pray'r.
Surely, you would agree that we should not be humbly bending around a shrine to one called the “Queen of May,” and that our heart and voice should be ascending to God instead. What saith the scriptures?
O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. (Ps 95:6)
I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and he heard me out of his holy hill. Selah.
(Ps 3:4)
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (Ex 20:3)
Thank you QueCat. Thank you for qualifying your position. Your post truly hit the heart of the problem of all Christians and this is something that I fight in my own congregation. In fact, I have people who like to sit in the first row just to be seen, and yet they do not walk with the Lord based on what I see. I pray that as God sees their heart, I hope they do truly love God.
Star2,
I am glad you love the Word of God. Despite the fact I think you are a little extreme, we should be extreme in our view of God and our love for Him. You may have taught children's ministry and been a missionary, these are good qualifications and yet still we must continue in our education. We must gain experience like you have and we must gain experience like all leaders of Christian Churches have by going to seminary, by formally studying the Scriptures, by studying the context of how it was written and who it was written to and finally by understanding the language it was written and the language it was spoken. Through formal education you may gain many new insights that you once did not know.
Someone who is wise has both life experience and academic experience. We should never shun either as they work hand in hand. I see you as someone who is highly judgemental and passionate. This makes me think you are a younger adult in your 30's or 40's. After Seminary I changed my view on Baptism as a Baptist because it was not Scripturally sound and nor did it correspond to the earliest Christian history of how they understood Baptism. The Baptists had a view about Baptism that is and was not shared by Protestants of the Reformation.
An old dog like me can learn new tricks, so to speak. I've have learned a lot through both types of education and I would encourage you to continue in the academic side and that will smooth out your rough edges like it did for me. Keep up your passion for Christ.
QueCat,
I agree with everthing yo wrote to EvanCal. We should never be trapped by lifeless ritual, we should only be free through the Word of God. I am also against those who call themselves Christians and yet say they will be saved because they go on Easter and Christmas. By works you will not be saved.
Real Christianity is when all Christians testify to the Truth who is Christ. We must always use Scripture as it was intended; to learn the will of God and to reproof any doctrine that goes against Scripture.
EvanCal
What man thinks is unimportant. It only matters what God thinks. My views are not extreme according to the Word of God. They are only extreme to the the wisdom of man. My views are according to God's Word. When I am wrong or only partially correct, God corrects me. I am open to God correcting me on doctrine that I am wrong in. When He shows me that I am wrong, then I change. I take God at His word and I depend on Him to teach me (John 14:26) and guide me into all truth (John 16:13).
I sincerely seek God to understand his Word and I do my best to preach it. I care not what you think about it. The only one that I have to please is God.
If my views rub you wrong then take it up with God.
If you really want to do the will of God then you will know whether my teachings are of God or of man (John 7:17).
You thank God that I don't have a position of influence? Sorry, God doesn't agree with you. I taught Children's Church in my Church for somewhere between 1.5 to 2 years because that was God's will for me. I have served God as a missionary for 20+ years. Each type of ministry I have/had is/was ordained by God.
EvanCal,
I'm gratified to hear that you find some redeeming qualities in my writing after all. I don't believe I'm the "catholic-hater" that you might think that I am. On the contrary, I embrace as brothers and sisters in the Lord anyone who upholds to scripture as God's truth, loves the Lord and strives to be more Christ-like each and every day - no matter which church building they may worship in.
What I detest is lifeless man-made religious systems that trap and lead men astray from the simple truth of the gospel, ladening them down with undue burdens. What I detest is a "cultural christianity" that claims salvation for no other reason than "I was baptized as a babe and I go to church every Easter and Christmas". And what I detest are those who come to the flock as wolves in sheep's clothing teaching as doctrine the traditions of men.
There are saints in Christ in just about every type of Christian fellowship on the face of this planet, but sadly there are many more who claim the name of Christ but do not actaully submit to his Lordship - both in the pulpit and the laiety - of EVERY CHURCH.
This is why I write - to call these to repentance who are self-deceived so that on the day of reckoning they do not have to be among those to whom Christ says: "Depart from me, I never knew you".
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2Ti 4:3, 4
Beware of those uninspired writings, superstitions, fables, myths, and pagan infusions that lead from “All scripture…is profitable for doctrine…” (2 Ti 3:16, 17).
Amen QueCat!
QueCat,
That was one of the first posts you had, that sounded reasonable and thoughtful. I thank you for posting your most recent comment below.
I belive that the Body of Christ is sepparated and unified at the same time. We have too many divergent views on Scripture even within Protestantism and yet we can all be united in our own personal faith and communal faith in Christ with other Christians like Catholics and Orthdox.
Trust me, I am not running down the isle screeming Unity Unity like some. Truth can never be compromised for the sake of Unity, so trust me when I say this that when I go to ecumenical meetings I am not there to ever accept unity over the Truth of Scripture.
Having known Catholics and Orthdox for many years and reading their viewpoints on many doctrinal issues we have with them, I can tell you that we Protestants are discovering more what the early Christians believed which should be considered and the Catholics are seeing our side of things as we explicitly use Scripture alone. I value my Catholic friends very much.
I do not agree with them on some points, but I see hope for unity if we keep the Truth first and if we pray together and continue our dialogue.
All Scriptures that refer to church unity make clear that the true Church, the Body of Christ, is one ALREADY. The only way to be in the true Church is to be placed in the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit in regeneration; "the Body is one . . .all the members are one . . . for by one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body" (1 Cor. 12:12-13). "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Cor. 6:17). "You are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28). Nowhere are we admonished that is is WE who are to implement this unity.
In as much as the body of Christ cannot hide from the unification crusade, as conscientious and watchful Christians, we need to be keenly aware of what Scripture warns about the last days' generation and church, we must not only examine, but also scrutinize movements impacting the Church.
As the unity/ecumenical pressure increases, those opposing will be considered obstructions to a so-called "move of God." Any opposing views will be condemned as divisive, negative, proud, unloving, narrow, radical, or some other malicious label. To be able to stand against the criticism, avoid unholy entanglements, and be confident of your position.
Unity for the sake of unity alone at the expense of truth is foolishness.
If we are truly led of the Holy Spirit in our understanding of scripture - why would we even consider compromising those truths for sake of some ecumenical love-fest of man-made contrived "unity"?
I am new to this board and I have never seen so much Catholic bashing. I am in Seminary right now, and there are Catholics, Lutherans, Evangelicals, Assembly of God, Baptists, Episcopals and many other types and we are all learning together about Jesus and we all love him.
I am in my second year and yes Catholics and Orthodox for that matter have doctrines that are different from mine as an Evangelical; however, the things we have in common with them concering the deity of Christ, the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, Christ dying on the Cross for all of our sins brings the entire body of Christ together as one.
I see even among Evangelicals there are profound differences, but we have the main core which is the glue that binds us. As we focus on what unites us, we find that we have much more in common than what we previously thought. In discussing our differences we have found many times it is a difference of cultural themes that causes miscommunication and misunderstanding between all Christians irregardless of denomination.
When I march for pro-life and pro-traditional marriage issues I am proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with all our Christian brothers and sisters including Catholics, Orthdox and Armenians.
God wants us to follow Truth with no exceptions. Truth must guide our unity.
To Believer, Star2 and QueCat,
You do not represent the majority of Protestant Christianity and Evangelicals. I just returned from a conference on ecumenical dialogue and only Christians were invited. The Mormons were not invited, the JW's were not invited, the CHurch of Christ Scientist were not invited, but all the mainline Protestants, non-denominations, Orthdox and Catholics were.
You see my fellow Christians. Catholics and Orthodox are Christians and they are recognized as such by the largest bodies of Protestant Christianity. Your views are extreme and most are very judgemental
Your opinions are from an extremist point of view and THANK GOD, you hold no position of influence. It is time that reasonable minds come together to discuss our differences.
WalkinwithJesusChrist,
Loved your post! AMEN AMEN BROTHER OR SISTER IN CHRIST! I couldn't agree with you more.
Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox is the Body of Christ and we must all work together to discuss our differences so that through Truth and the Guidance of the Holy Spirit we can be ONE.
There are lame Christians in every church. We must all follow Christ, love Him and follow him with everthing we got! Without a personal relationship with Christ it is a dead end.
believer
AngloCat flagged you because you said that Catholics were not Christian. He/She said that was not nice and you needed to be nice. He/She said that you should just express your views and not say that Catholics are not Christians. That is the best I can remember.
I would like to know in what Bible the terms "Catholic or Protestant" are found? What I read in my Bible, is "Body of Christ", "children of God"; the "family of God" and God's family is not divided; they are one body IN CHRIST!
Christ has torn down the wall/veil of hostility and the two have become ONE!
There are many both in the "Catholic Church" and Protestants who are NOT walking with Jesus Christ (no pun intended) they know about Him; but that is NOT the same as knowing the LORD!
God wants to be known by HIS children, so what if you know the Word, do you know the GOD of the Word, do you have a personal, intimate, relationship with Him, do you want HIM? or Just His blessings, and gifts? Those are a by-product of walking in a loving, intimate relationship with our Loving, Father God!
I believe that what grieves our Lord is all this disunity. We are to love one another as Christ loved the church and gave HIS life for her! God knows whose hearts are right with Him; certainly no man does; even the most "religious" person can hide from the world the state of their heart; but not from God.
So, ask yourselves this question: Am I walking in an intimate, personal relationship with God? and if not, why not. God isn't looking for the religious, HE is looking for those who Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, For HIS glory!
As for Martin Luther's views regarding Jews. It should be recognized that he was a product of the thinking of his time and a product of the teachings of the RCC at the time.
It would seem that you would demonize Luther for not protesting against a wider variety of the RCC's sins. He chose his battles and by the grace of God and the courage of hundreds of men like him, we are now free to worship and read the scriptures without an Inquisitor slapping us in shackles for questioning unbiblical dogma.
HyperionOverseer
Actually, Martin Luther DiID hate Jews. His Essay Called "On the Jews and Their Lies, 1543" is quite hateful.
AngloCat
Instead of flagging believer you should offer a rebuttal to what he says.
Didnt Martin Luther HATE Jews too?
I would continue assaulting the roman catholic war machine, afterall YOU ARE ONLY TRULY INSULTED BY THE TRUTH! God is not the god of the Roman Catholic church, Satan is!
I can't figure out what he needs to apologize for...hmmmm....maybe the catholic church felt he tarnished their already clean reputation???.....let's get real people. Where's Martin Luther when you need him?
blah, blah, blah,...the article is about a protestant leader begging for forgiveness and humble and forgiving Catholics granting it to to him. "He's seen the light!!!" Powerful article about a lost person seeing the light. I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see. Unfortunately, there are those in darkness perhaps one day like this protestant leader they will also see the light ...love this article :)
msnchris70
Re: Heaven and Hell
I would like to encourage you to visit the following links:
Revelatons of Heaven to 7 Columbian Youth:
http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/7_Jovenes/English_7_Jovenes_Heaven.htm
Revelatons of Hell to 7 Columbian Youth:
http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/7_Jovenes/English_7_Jovenes_Hell.htm
Another protestant leader begging for forgiveness from Catholics...lucky for them we believe in confessions :)
msnchris70
The Catholics made Mary into what she was not - a God.
QueCat,
The Immaculate Conception is a complex doctrine and it focuses completely on Jesus' Saving Grace. The Immaculate Conception was always understood because of what Scripture said impliciitly and explicitly about Mary and God's role. What is FULL OF GRACE? Also, why did the Angel Gabriel say.."Hail". Full of Grace means without stain and that is how the earliest Christians understood this. Hail was only used at that time for a King or Queen. Later to see her in Revaltion with a Crown of Stars, thus Queen of Heaven. Also, Davidic line the Queen is always the King's mother.
Like the Word of God in the OT, the Commandments were put into the Ark of the Covenant which was made of PURE GOLD. Only Gold that was Pure and had no stain could carry the Word of God. Only people who were the holiest could even be around the Word of God in the OT or be struck down dead.
Mary is the the New Ark, for she carried the Word of God. She could have no stain of sin, because Jesus took on her flesh and that flesh could not be stained. Full of Grace supports this understanding since the Old is a prefigurement of the New. Mary was pre-saved by Christ as a special honor. God choose Mary before time began and that is why God said to Satan in Gen 3:15 Complete Enmity between woman and Satan". Mary did need a savior just like all of us, but she was pre-saved for her special role in Salvation History. While the Immaculate Conception was not official doctrine of the CHurch till much later in History. Mary's being made sinless so God could be carried in her womb was always believed by the earliest Christians.
For more info read: http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
Star2,
Glory and honor in Heaven?
How do I know we will not only receive eternal life but we will receive "Honor and Glory" too.
Paul tells us: "For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality" (Rom. 2:6–11; cf. Gal. 6:6–10).
The Catholic Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007). The most merit humans can have is condign—when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10).
All the Church Fathers agree that our Treasure will be in Heaven. STore up nothing for the Earth because we are citizens of Heaven. Yes, we deserve Hell. Not only do we get Heaven, but we get reward because of how we cooperated with God's grace on Earth. The Bible says that God will reward our Good works with Glory and Honor.
Here are a few more: Rom 2:5-8-God will repay each man according to his works, 2Cor 5:10 -Recompense accord to what did in the Body, 2Cor 11:15 Their end will correspond to their deeds, 1Pet 1:17 God judges impartially according to one's works, Rev 20:12-13 - Dead judged according to their deeds, Col 3:24-25 -Will receive due payment for whatever you do.
Now, is the Catholic position unreasonable? Scripture supports our position. Will we not be Saints in Heaven and receive our Crown of Glory? The Bible says we will.
Star2,
Answer to your question, my friend; is a resounding "Yes". Since Truth is not relative and Truth is Christ Jesus, then it is my duty as a Christian to follow Truth always before my own wants and needs. Does that answer that for you? I want to be considerate and answer you.
msnchris70
If you cannot answer 'Yes" to the quesion that I asked below, then you are not the least bit interested in doing the will of God.
msnchris70
If God revealed to you a teaching and/or a practice in the RCC that is false and contrary to the teaching in the Word of God, would you abandon it for the truth?
msnchris70
Re:Protestants have always looked at God as having all the Glory and any Glory given to those who do His will should receive nothing.
If you make it to Heaven, why should you receive anything? You are nothing but a sinner who deserves hell who was saved by the grace of God. If you do any good works that are deserving of eternal reward, you did them by the grace of God and not by your own merit.. Only a prideful person who is full of himself/herself thinks that he/she should receive something from God for all the good he/she has done.
If your heart really understood salvation then your heart would be glad that you were even allowed to go to Heaven. You would be thankful to God that you were even there because, for sure, you deserve nothing but Hell.
msnchris70
Re:"Next to the King is the King's closest friends and family all on the altar with him with smaller but beatiful seats of honor and all are dressed like royalty especially the King's Mother."
Where in the Bible does it suggest that such honor is bestowed on the Jesus' closest friends and family?
Was Mary sinless?
The RCC calls her "Holy". The believers in the Bible were called “saints” which can be interpreted as “set apart ones” or “holy ones,” but the understanding of Scripture is that the righteousness that believers in Christ have is an imparted righteousness from Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21) and that while in this life, they are not yet sanctified from sin in practice (1 John 1:9-2:1). Jesus is called our Savior repeatedly in Scripture because He saved us from our sin. In Luke 1:47, Mary calls God her “Savior.” Savior from what? A sinless person does not need a Savior. Sinner’s need a Savior. Mary acknowledged that God was her Savior. Therefore, Mary was acknowledging that she was a sinner.
Jesus said that He came to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:21). The RCC claims that Mary was saved from sin differently than everyone else...that she was saved from sin through the immaculate conception (her being conceived free of sin). But is this teaching scriptural? The RCC openly admits that this teaching is not found in Scripture. When a young man addressed Jesus as “good Master” (Matthew 19:16-17), Jesus asks why he calls Him “good” since there is none good but one, God. Jesus was not denying His own deity, He was trying to make the young man aware that he was using the term too loosely without thinking about what he was saying. But Jesus’ point is still valid or He would not have said it...there is none good but God. This excludes all but God, including Mary! This ties in with Romans 3:10-23, Romans 5:12, and countless other passages that stress the fact that in God’s eyes no one measures up. Never is Mary ever excluded from such all encompassing statements! If Mary had been preserved from the stain of sin, she would not have needed a Savior, as she proclaimed that she did (Luke 1:47).
Even a simple google of "indulgence' would show you the truth of the matter. And the most outrageous evidence of such an unbiblical concept can be drawn from Catholic websites!
The belief is that indulgences draw on some sort of storehouse of excess merit that was achieved by Jesus' sacrifice, Mary's so-called sinlessness (since she's sinless all her good works don't need to accrue to her own benefit, the benefit of them can be "transferred" to you - for a price) and the excess good works of the Saints.
So there's a gigantic bucket of excess good works merit sitting in heaven that is just waiting to be dipped into by needy souls so that may need to claim the benefit for themselves.
You can either be a super-saint and make deposits to this "bucket" by performing meritable actions over and above what is needed for propitiation for your own shortcomings - or you can make withdrawals from this precious storehouse!
See what sort of twisted mythology a works-based salvation gets you?
Whatever happened to the complete sufficiency of Christ's blood shed on the cross?
(or 1John2:2 not in some bibles?)
When he said "It is finished" He meant it!
Two thumbs up for Believer!!
msnchris70
God shares His glory with no one!
Isaiah 42:8 - "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."
Here is the main difference between Protestants and Catholics using some immagination.
Imagine walking into the Kings palace, you see him in the far distance on His throne. The Palace is bare and all the people are wearing drab clothes. There is no art on the wall, no magnificent windows nothing. Just the King at the end of the long corridor with his beautiful robe and glorious crown with many Jewels. There is not music or anything that would detract from the King's glory.
Imagine walking into the same King's palace. This is the same huge palace building, and it is filled with the same people. There is a big difference though; The people are dressed in beautiful dress and have a royal look to them. The windows are the finest of stained glass, the Chandeliers are incredibly gorgeous. As you walk closer to the Throne of the King, it is an amazing Throne with Jewels. The King is glorified in amazing colours and His brilliance with his gigantic crown is overwhelming. Next to the King is the King's closest friends and family all on the altar with him with smaller but beatiful seats of honor and all are dressed like royalty especially the King's Mother.
Which Palace would you like to be in? Protestants have always looked at God as having all the Glory and any Glory given to those who do His will should receive nothing.
Catholics look at God as receiving all the Glory too, but Our God is an Awesome God who honors and glorifies His faithful servants. Much like the Moon reflects the brilliance of the Son, so do His faithful servants who are His friends radiate the joy of Christ. Giving honor to those that served the Lord is right and does in no way take away from the King who is the fountain of all the Glory.
Who was Queen in King David's court? Was it his wife, nope. IT WAS HIS MOTHER! The Davidic line always had the Queen be the King's wife. Wait is Jesus of the Line of David or not? Yes, so in following with that Jewish belief which were the original beliefs of the original Christians it is not unreasonable to understand why they would call Mary Queen of Heaven, especially because it is in Revelation that Mary has a crown. Moreover, Paul said we will receive our Crowns in Heaven like princes and Princesses of the King of Kings. Hmm, sounds pretty reasonable thus far. Also, in the Davidic Kingdom. Who did they bring their requests to?
AHA, they brought their requests to the Advocate who was King David's mother. Today, Catholics make request to both God the father through Christ and for intercessory prayers of Mary. Sounds like Catholics are still more Biblical and kept the Traditions of the earliest Christians who were ethnic Jews.
If you see someone described in the Bible with a Crown above her head, what would you call her? Hmmmm. Maybe a Queen? Was Mary John's mother? Jesus Said "Son behold your mother, Mother behold your son." Who is John? John was an Apostle and a member of the Hiearchy of the Church, and the Hiearchy of the Church has Mother. Mary is Mother of the Church.
Believer,
I am a well educated Catholic because I spent almost my whole life being an anti-Catholic. Some average Catholics do not know their faith, Some average protestants who were in my congregation do not know their faith. Some Protestants give their money to television evangelists under the guise of a "LOVE OFFERING", so that they can build their treasure in Heaven. Sounds like an Indulgence to Me.
It is proper to give an offering for a Priest to say a Mass. Unlike Protestant minister, most all of our Priests are barely above the poverty line. The typical offering is $50 dollars to $100 dollars. This is not buying an indulgence, this is simply giving the Priest money to do an extra Mass. Unlike Protestant Ministers, Priests work from 6am to 10Pm six days a week. In Maccabees it is is good for us to pray for the dead and as long as they are going to heaven. Oh, this is a book your good ole' Luther threw out.
The improper Sale of Indulgences can be traced back historically to about 12 years before Martin Luther made it public. These practices were wrong. Historically speaking, you could receive an indulgence from a type of Sacrifice. So, if you gave the little money you had to the poor then you could receive an indulgence. The money previously always went to the poor, and the Church functioned as a world wide charity and still does today. The Catholic Church is the largest Charitable organization on the face of the earth. Protestants are way behind on their charity, but thank God it is improving.
In the Bible when the Rich man wanted to pray for His brothers and Lazarus was on the other side of the veil, but both were in the same area and yet not in Heaven WHERE WERE THEY????
They were not in Heaven, they were not in Hell? WHERE WERE THEY? No protestant has ever courageously tackled this issue without being thrown on the cross himself by other Protestants.
Bible Quiz for the day:
Does the term "Queen of Heaven" appear anywhere in scripture?
Yes, but not in the manner of an approbation.
It is the title of a pagan diety, Semiramis, the Mother of God.
Jeremiah 44:15-17
"Then all the men which knew that their wives were burning incense to the other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that were dwelling in the land of Egypt, they answered Jeremiah, saying, As for the word which you have spoken to us in the name of Jehovah, we are not going to listen to you.
But we will certainly do whatever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven [to Semiramis who is known queen of heaven, mother of God], and to pour out drink offerings unto her.
hmmm -
1Th 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
msnchris would seem to be a classic example of where the practice and beliefs of most catholics are quite divergent from official RCC teachings. The fact of the matter is that most catholics that I know evidently have only a very tentative grasp on their own church's dogma.
As for my grandmother who has been a catholic all her life - sadly she frittered away her money by "donating" the money to her parish in return for masses being said for the benefit of the soul of my recently deceased grandfather. She too was laboring under the impression that doing so would release him from purgatory sooner.
One of her daughters (my aunt) regularly "donates" money to some convent so that they may pray the rosary on my behalf. I get these beautiful little notecards that indicate that a donation has been made to the Sisters of Perpetual somethingorother and that prayers are being said for me. Cute.
" 'The Fifth Glorious Mystery' to be "reflected" upon during the praying of the rosary:
THE CORONATION - As Mary enters heaven, the entire court of heaven greets with joy this masterpiece of God's creation. Mary is crowned by her divine Son as Queen of heaven and earth. More than we can ever know the Hearts of Jesus and Mary overflow with joy at this reunion. Only in heaven will we know the great majesty of that coronation, and the joy it gave to the angels and saints. Even the angels, who by nature are greater than humans, hail Mary as their Queen. Mary shares so fully in the glory of Christ because she shared so fully in His suffering. Only in heaven will we see how central is the role of Mary in the divine plan of redemption. The angels and saints longed for the coming of her whose heel crushes the head of the serpent. Mary pleads our cause as a most powerful Queen and a most merciful and loving Mother. "
(sigh) such blindness!
If Jesus is the king of the whole world, Mary is also queen of the whole world: therefore,
says St. Bernardine of Sienna, all creatures who serve God ought also to serve Mary; for all angels and men, and all things that are in heaven and on earth being subject to the dominion of God, are also subject to the dominion of the glorious Virgin. (The Glories of Mary, translated From the Italian of St. Alphonsus Liguori)
Surely we are in agreement that Bernardine spoke falsely. What saith the scriptures?
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:6
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9:14
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. Rev 7:15
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Eph 5:24
msnchris70
You Catholics haven't got a clue as to what the Word of God teaches.
msnchris70
Re: purgatory
You have no clue about what the practicing Catholic does in regard to their love ones who pass away. Here are three examples of what practicing Catholics have done in regard to the deceased:
1) When my mother died, the funeral director, who was a Catholic, sent her name to some Catholic Church in New York so that the Priests could offer prayers for her soul to get her out of purgatory. Money donations were welcomed but not required.
2) My Aunt and Uncle are Catholic. When a family member dies they send money to the Catholic Church so the Priest can pray that their deceased family memeber gets out of purgatory quicker.
3) I had an elderly friend that I helped take care of that had a Catholic Nephew. Before she died she gave him $2000. After she died, he gave the $2000 to his Church so the Priests could offer prayers for her to get out of purgatory quicker.
"The controversy had threatened to pursue McCain throughout the campaign, potentially hurting his standing with Catholic voters. A narrow majority of Roman Catholics voted for President Bush in 2004 and for Al Gore in 2000, critical votes in close elections."
Pastor Wright, and those like him, should use this as an example.
msnchris,
lots of good points, and many Protestans (as well as nearly every Catholic I have spoken to in real life) do not have a clue about what the Catholic Church actually teaches. I am not a Catholic, but I insist that if we are to criticize the RCC or any other religious body, we must do so on factual and fair grounds.
This being said, your point 4 is a bit misleading, the RCC did very much "sell" indulgences, often perhaps under the guise of "charity" but often for greedy reasons. That was one of the biggest problems Martin Luther had, and when he appealed to the Pope, believing that the Pope had no idea about the abuses, he was surprised to find that the Pope sided completely against him.
In order for your point to be true, you are assuming that Martin Luther was completely ignorant and had no clue what was going on, but this is simply not true, Martin Luther was very well learned and did not want to break from the RCC but to remedy what he saw as abuses.
Lastly, you have no clue about Purgatory. You actually think it is a place.
There are only two places after death; Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is not a second chance. When you die you will be judged for your good works and your bad works. The judgement seat of Christ is Purgatory. It is his cleansing fire of love that removes all of your sins that you still have attachments too. It also cleanses you from the venial sins that wounded your soul. This loving Fire of God will cleanse you of all your sins, so you may enter Heaven spotless. If you are more holy, then less fire needed. If you have sinned a lot, then more cleansing fire needed. His cleansing purgation of your sins is TRUE LOVE and True Grace.
Again, Jesus died once and for all. If you die in God's grace you will be saved and all of us will be judged. Those who have accepted Jesus and tried to their best of the their abilities to seek God, love Him and have a contrite and humble heart will be saved. Those who have rejected his love, rejected his relationship, and rejected his grace will not be saved. You can say you believe all you want, because in the end God will judge your heart. If your heart isn't sorrowful for your sins and you choose not to accept Jesus sacrifice on the Cross, then you will damn yourself. A contrite heart will be saved, a heart that loves evil and chooses an evil lifestyle will be damned.
All of us need a savior and all of us fall short. What is most important is if you commit a sin, especially a sin that is mortal that later you truly are sorry for having done it? You are sorry because you love Jesus. If you were a murderer your entire life and then before you were sent to the electric chair, you honestly came to Christ, you honestly sought His saving Grace, you honestly accept His death on the Cross for your sins, then He will judge your heart blameless and you will be saved because your heart genuinely and authentically realized you were wrong and you accepted His grace.
Now Point 4. You are a bold face liar about your Aunt! You have created a false witness against your neighbor. YOU CANNOT BUY AN INDULGENCES. Period! Not one indulgence was ever sold previous to MLuther and after the fiasco, there have never been an indulgence or prayer ever bought again. You cannot buy a blessing. The only way to get an indulgence is through prayer, fasting, and going to Church on a specific day.
Point 5: What is Faith? Faith is an active outgrowth of your belief. Your immaginary aunt is right for praying the Rosary, not missing Mass and not doing sins that will send her to Hell. Faith is believing what Jesus said and did and following Him all the way! Paul was very specific on the Sins that lead to death and those that only wound the soul. Even someone who commits a Mortal sin like Adultery will go to Heaven if they repent on their deathbed and are sincerely contrite in their heart, but someone who commits this sin all the time and then asks for forgiveness not because they realize what they've done is wrong but because they don't want the penalty. The latter person will not be saved because their heart is what God judges and someone who's heart constantly sins in a Mortal way never had True Faith in the first place. They will say Lord Lord Lord and Jesus will say He never knew you!
No Catholic thinks they earn their way to Heaven. We have faith in Jesus' atonement for all our sins and we are saved by His Grace. God's grace infuses us with the ability to do good works in His name. True love of God is a choice and is the best judge of faith. If you blatantly sin you do not have Faith that will save you. If you have faith, but fall into sin and then honestly repent you will be saved. Real faith bears good fruit, while a superficial Faith leads to hell because your heart chooses sin over Jesus everday, so when you die and you've always chosen sin how can you expect to go to Heaven.
God doens't damn you, you damn yourself by your works by rejecting the saving Grace and Love of Christ.
Believer...You are a Fraud,
You are dishonest. You can tell you were never a Catholic by your ignorant post. As a former Protestant Pastor who went to Seminary, received a Masters in Divinity and am currently going through my PhD program, you sound much more like an imposter to me.
Point ONE: 100% of what we Catholics believe is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Point TWO: We celebrate only two days for Mary; The Assumption and the Immaculate Conception both of which focus on the Power of God to do these great things.
We celebrate;Christmas, Ash Wednesday, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday, Easter Monday, Epiphany, Pentecost, Corpus Christi, Ascension of Christ, Presentation of Jesus in the Temple, Annunciation and more. We celebrate entire seasons because of Christ.
Also, ever Feast day that celebrates a Saint or the Virgin Mary is 100% about their personal relationship of Christ. We only celebrate those people who had amazingly close relationships with Christ AND DID HIS WILL No relationship, no feast day.
Point 3: The Rosary is not about Mary it is about Christ. It is a Christological prayer. Read the Gospel of Luke to see the Hail Mary for yourself. The Rosary is 100% Scripture and has always been Scripturally based since St. Dominic gave it to his fellow Dominicans to get closer to Christ. Praying Scriptures as a meditative practice was and is good for a Christian. The Rosary also has the Mysteries of Christ life, death and Resurrection. Again, all about Jesus!
The real issue is not Hagee’s political motive for this apparent apology but that he chose not to defend the true gospel grace.
What about Hagee's million dollar ministry scandal? How come that is never mentioned in the media? For more info, google search "open letter to pastor hagee"
MANY JEWS that came to Christ said that He can as the Christ (aka Messiah). The Apostle John in 1 John said that anyone that said that He did not come as the Christ is a liar and has the spirit of anti-Christ. John Hagee said that He did not come as Messiah for the Jews. The Bible makes no distinction. Either the Bible is right or not. He came as Messiah/the Christ for all people, not excluding Jews. Those that believe that Jews have a separate relationship need to read the entire Bible and include all verses that deal with the subject.
Let me say up front that my comments have absolutely nothing to do with Hagee being right or wrong about the Catholic church. You can issue in your own mind and heart.
What galls me here is this is just another example of what is wrong with the church entering politics today. Rev Hagee has been raining verbal fire and brimstone on the Catholics for years. Now that his views are becoming a possible Republican liability, he suddenly understands Catholics and wants to be buddies with them. Huh?? He did some studying and now figures they aren't so bad after all???
pgcfriend, you misquote John Hagee in your post "He clearly says that the book will prove that He did not come to be the Messiah." You left out the words " OF THE JEWS". This changes the meaning a bit I think and so does John. Many of the jews in that day expected a messiah that would liberate them from the romans, vanquish their enemies and rise to power in their time. Jesus rebuked these kinds of ideas, not the idea that He is the Anointed One. On that point I feel John Hagee is accurate. Gee I wonder what John says about the real purpose of Jesus' first coming? If anyone is wondering the same thing, I suggest reading his book for your self and not taking anyone elses (is that a word, elses?) word for it. It's just human nature to leave words and details out.
I kinda got off the main subject with my last post. Pastor Hagee has been saying things about the Catholic Church for years. I believe that if this was not an election year, he would not have given his PR apology when confronted. He will be back at it after the election. Watch and see. He has no affection to the Catholic Church - none. C'mon he says off things about America and that the Lord Jesus Christ did not come to be the Messiah. What makes us think that the Catholic Church is exempt?
EvanCal,
I don't know a lot about the Catholic Faith, but your question "Is asking your friend on earth for their prayers creating an idol .." seems somewhat silly. Of course it is not creating an idol - according to scripture it is two people touching and agreeing. Look at Matthew 18:19 -
"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven." The key phrase is "on earth" - Mary is not on earth.
"Asking Mary for her prayers is no different than asking our friends on earth for prayers." How can a dead person pray for anyone? Mary is not here - she is deceased. She cannot pray for anyone. She can do nothing. Note Psalm 115:17 - "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." If she cannot praise the Lord, why do we think she can pray for anyone?
Your arguments are rather simple and juvenile. Your job is no more a hinderance than your having to do housework stops you from prayer - which should be without ceasing) or praise - which should continually be in your mouth. Can't praise when you are on the phone or typing on this blog, for that matter. Remember we have to work so how can that be a hinderance to the Lord?
It appears in recent days that the Catholic Church is making some outrageous claims, thus, justifying the notion that the Catholic Church is not Christian. For example, this week alone two articles came out saying (1) God had a "contribution" in mankind's evolution and that man's evolution was natural (http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802496.htm), and just today (2) Christians can beleive in aliens. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080513/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_aliens) It went further to state that the big bang theory is a "reasonable" explanation for the "creation" of the universe, but goes on to say that God created the universe. Look it up. The story came out today.
It is these claims that cause many to call the Catholic Church out as being "off" with its practices and theology. Since I am a novice of the Catholic ways, I know stuff like that is absolutely incorrect. You asked for scripture - now I ask you for scripture to justify these claims.
In the context of the current discussion, for those of you who are unsure, "charitable" and "reasonable" should be understood as "compromise".
Dan 3:16-18 "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we [are] not careful to answer thee in this matter. If it be [so], our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver [us] out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
No compromise.
To God be the glory!
Father Justin Micoviensis writes: One sigh of Mary has more power than the prayers of all the saints united. The devil himself confessed this same thing to St. Dominic, when, constrained by his commands, he spoke through the mouth of a possessed person, saying, as Father Pacciucchelli narrates, that one sigh of Mary availed more with God than the united prayers of all the saints. (The Glories of Mary Translated From the Italian of St. Alphonsus Liguori)
Where in the word of God can we find that the sigh of Mary has such great power? Will you agree with me that the devil is a liar, and that what we have read above is nothing more than a deception to draw men from “What saith the scriptures?”
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (Jas 5:16)
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Ro 8:26)
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (Ro 8:34)
Man oh man, where have I been. I leave the Board for a little bit and I miss all of this good stuff below. I've got EvanCal and AngelCat defending the Communion of Saints as Catholics see it and that we don't worship Mary and have no idols. Then we have on the other hand QueCat and Star2 offering their usual subjectivism.
It is kind of fun to stay out of it a bit and watch how Protestants go after each other saying each other is wrong and they all do it using Scripture.
One thing I will say is that EvanCal and AngelCat seem to be fairly charitable in their posts and offer reasonable responses. QueCat and a few others offer a lot of their opinions based on their view of Scripture and they even claim to know the heart of people's faith. Since when did QueCat or Star2 become God? They both claim more infalliblity than even the Pope.
I thank you Mr. hagge. It is about time!
What of the RCC's Mariolatry?
In a message to the General Audience and published Wednesday, 7 May 1997 by the Vatican, Pope John Paul II said, "The history of Christian piety teaches that Mary is the way which leads to Christ."
"Mary shares our human condition, but in complete openness to the grace of God. Not having known sin, she is able to have compassion on every kind of weakness "
"The papal crest of John Paul II was a simple coat of arms whose central feature was a large "M" for Mary. When he died, his coffin was also decorated with a large letter M. His personal slogan, which he had embroidered into all his papal robes, was "Totus tuus ego sum, Maria"—"I am totally yours, Mary."
"Totus Tuus ego sum." Those were, as a matter of fact, the opening words of his last will and testament. In the will itself, John Paul went on to say this:
"I place this moment [referring to the moment of his death] in the hands of the Mother of my Master: Totus Tuus. In the same maternal hands I leave everything and everyone to whom I have been connected by my life and my vocation. In these Hands, I leave above all the Church, and also my nation and all of humanity. "
From http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0264.htm
"In the summer of 1995, Pope John Paul II began a lengthy catechisis on the Blessed Virgin Mary during his weekly Angelus addresses, culminating on 25 October 1995, with his instruction on Our Lady's active participation in the Sacrifice of Calvary. This active participation of Our Lady at Calvary is called the corredemption. Already in 1982 and 1985 Pope John Paul II used the term "corredemptrix" in reference to Our Lady in public addresses. This is significant, for he is the first Pope to do so since Pope Benedict XV at whose prayer Our Lady came to Fatima to reveal Her Immaculate Heart. Since the time of Pope Benedict XV, this terminology was under review by the Holy See; the present Pope's usage is a confirmation of this traditional view of Mary's role in salvation history."
"traditional view of Mary's role in salvation history"!!??? Whose?
corredemptrix!!??? Heretical and unbiblical !!
Shall we speak more of the value of "church" traditions that fly in the face of scripture?
Ecumenism?
Oops - I'm being "divisive" again, aren't I ?
I don't ask my freinds who have died and left this world for prayer.
Nor do I beleive that mary is co-redeemer with Christ as the catholic church does.
Will the real church please stand up.
For those that say that John Hagee never denied that Jesus came as the Messiah, here is a video that will inform you otherwise. This is a commercial that he does for his program for his book In Defense of Israel. He clearly says that the book will prove that He did not come to be the Messiah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4560ww1D-8
I have the book. In the chapter Answering Christian Critics he declares that 60+ times that Jesus rejected the Jews' request for Him to be their Messiah. It is the most confusing, amazing piece of trash I have read. It was not even written well, much less proven with Scripture. It was the saddest thing I had read in a long time.
The man is in serious trouble. Unless things have changed in recent times he has been pretty pompous and mean to those that come against him. He is either (1) utterly convinced of this, (2) he is so scared of not being blessed for 'loving the Jews' that he will say anything or (3) he is captured by the money and power for taking this stance.
If led please pray for him. He is in a dangerous place with God. I'm really afraid for him.
Star2,
You assume that Mary is between God and a Catholic. She is not. Asking Mary for her prayers is not different than asking our friends on earth for prayers.
Is asking your friend on earth for their prayers creating an idol because you put your friends between God and you. You take things to extremes and by your assumptions you show a lot of ignorance, but you are not shy about your opinions.
An idol is something you worship. Your job is a hinderance between you and God, or your car is a hinderance or your house or your possesions. No Catholic I know worships Mary. No Catholic I know looks at Mary as between them and God.
You have a very biased opinion and you use Scripture to try and prove your opinion much like Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses do. If only you could marry Scripture, the context and history we could have an intelligient conversation.
Reply toStop-the-MadnessWed May 14, 2008 9:36 am : 2 : 1 Flag
The Jewish Church is the original Christian Church
Your are without a doubt an smart @$$, since Jews and Christians are 2 different groups of people!
EvanCal
Anything that stands between you and God is an idol. Praying to Mary or any dead saint that you may think is in Heaven is a person that stand between you and God and therefore is an idol in your life. God's Word in Ezekial 14 makes it very plain that if you have idols in your heart then when you pray that God will allow the idols of your heart to answer you.
Case in point: One day God told me to join myself with a few people who were protesting in front of a building where there was a doctor's office who performed abortions. These protestors were Catholic. While the husband of the woman I was talking with dismissed himself to look for the young unmarried couple who was going to the clinic to have an abortion, she asked me if I wanted to join in with her and her daughter to pray the rosary. I said "No" and explained to her that praying the rosary was wrong because 1) it involved repetitous praying that Jesus said for us not to do, and 2) praying to Mary was not scriptural. I explained to her that when Jesus was getting ready to be crucified that He instructed His disciples to go to God the Father with their request in His name and God the Father would answer them. Jesus never instructed His disciples to pray in other way. No where in scripture will you find any prayer request offered to any dead saint in Heaven. All prayers were directly made to God. I told her that God will not answer any prayer made to a dead saint. She in turn said that she prays a lot to the Virigin Mary. She recounted a miracle she received when she prayed to Mary about a serious health issue. Then she said, "You just don't know how much the Virgin Mary has done for me." Her admiration for Mary was unbounded. She did not give glory to God for anything. She gave glory to Mary for everything.
The Virgin Mary was an idol in her life. When she prayed to her God allowed the demons behind that idol to answer her. That is what He said he would do in Ez 14:4.
You said: " They know it is God that grants all things. Catholics just feel that intercession of prayers is not limited to those on earth."
This is not true according to scripture. Again, if you have idols in your heart then God will have the idols of your heart answer you when you pray (Ex 14:4). Once a beleiver in the Lord dies and goes to heaven, their work and labour in the Lord ceases (Rev 14:13). The is only one mediator in heaven between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5).
EvanCal,
I would prefer if you label me an anti-dead-religion bigot. It matters little to me which brand of dead religion someone wants to label themselves as an adherent of. Rather, my heart aches for ALL those who are only nominal self-deceived christians, warming pews and being taught how to "have their best life now" or some such "relevant" nonsense, rather than being built up in the Word of God - and wondering why they have no peace, no power and no assurance of salvation.
2Th 2:1-3 " Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..."
The falling away seems evidenced by the much lamented exodus from traditional churches, but what is much more disturbing is the unseen exodus.
What IS evident is that many mainline churches are watering down the gospel and are unwilling to preach against sin for fear of alienating unrepentant congregants. This causes the "apparent" exodus of those who yearn for biblical, sound doctrinal teaching, leaving in favor of small non-denominational fellowships and house-churches. (Spitefully call it fundamentalism, if you will - but what I seek is the precious gem of God's unchanging and uncompromising foundational truth.)
On the other hand the unseen exodus is of pew-sitters who have lost their way and are chasing after teachers that will advise them as to their health, wealth and prosperity or feed them some sort of pop psychology self-help drivel. Or just as bad, those who darken the doors of a church for no other reason than they believe that going through the motions will get them a pass at St. Peter's gate. There is no call to holiness - no desire for holiness. There is simply "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof".
These are those, of who Christ will say at the judgment "Depart from me, I never knew you".
They will say, "But Lord, Lord!, Did we not...(insert your good work here) ...in your name?"
and again Christ shall say "Depart from me, I never knew you".
Mark 7:6b "...This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me. "
We should be mindful of 2Ti 4:2-4
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
So I will affirm Peter's teaching again when I say that: "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning".
“Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary…” (Pope Pius IX, The Immaculate Conception - 1854)
Pius says to pray TO Mary. Come now, let us reason from the scriptures:
Ps 69:13 But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O LORD, in an acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in the truth of thy salvation.
Mt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father…
1Jn 2:1 …we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Romans 8:35-39 "Death cannot sepparate us from Christ"
MK 9:4 Jesus is seen conversing with Elijah and Moses
Mk 12:26-27 "He is the God of the living, not of the dead"
Rev 6:9-11 Martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Rev 5:8 Angel offers prayers of the holy ones to God
Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3; and 1Thes 5:25 Pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints and for me
Lk 16:19-30 A departed rich man wants to intercede for brothers
! Tim 2"1-7 Offer prayers, petitions for all men
1 Pet 2:5 Be a holy priesthood to offer sacrifices thru Christ
Here are a few good verses that supports the fact of:
-We should all intercede for each other
-It is good to offer sacrifices for others thru Christ
-The martyrs in Heaven are still making requests to God
-The cloud of witnesses in Heaven are aware of us and our struggles.
-Death cannot sepparate us from Christ
-Those who have experience physical death like the Rich man, Elijah and Moses
are stil aware of us and want to act on our behalf.
Enjoy.
“Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears…” (Pope Pius IX: The Immaculate Conception - 1854)
Come now, let us reason from the scriptures:
“For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.” (Pr 3:26)
“According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.” (Ephesians 3:11, 12)
Wow, did this article hit a nerve...
OK, the point of the article is John Hagee made some inaccurate statements that were considered offensive. He apologized. Seventy times seven, he's forgiven.
John Paul II apologized for all those Catholics who, throughout the 2,000 years that the Catholic Church has existed, have exhibited behavior that had fallen short of the glory of God. Forgiven, seventy times seven.
We have all fallen short of the glory of God, always have, always will. Thank God for His never-ending grace that reconciles us to Him, every time.
And His son Jesus now lives in us, as St. Paul teaches us.
How are we doing loving one another as Christ has loved us and in reconciling with each other?
Star2, While there are extremists in every church and I'm sure there are a few Catholics who pray to Mary alone. In my many years of Pastoring and working directly with Catholics in ecumenical dialogue, and having met thousands of Christ loving Catholics I can tell you that the majority of Catholics only ask saint for intercession and they pray directly to God too.
I'll give you an example. A gentleman on our ecumenical board was in a serious car wreck and he was in intensive care. All of us Protestants prayed to God for him and his health. This is intercession of the Saints. All the Catholics prayed to God too for his health, but they also sought the prayers of the Virgin Mary, so that she would ask God too for this gentleman's health to be restored. They did not put their faith in Mary, they put their faith in God.
Our friend was restored to health. God loves it when we pray to him. God really loves it when all of us Christians pray as one. Do I know for a fact that my prayer or the Virgin Mary's prayer was less or more effecatious? No. I also don't care. The bottom line is that all of us Christians prayed to God. We all interceded for this man to regain his health and it was God's will.
I have yet to meet a Catholic who actually thinks it is Mary doing the gifting. They know it is God that grants all things. Catholics just feel that intercession of prayers is not limited to those on earth.
EvanCal, Jesus himself said he was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came to fulfil the promises made to the fathers. And they were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob not the pope or Mary. When Israel rejected Jesus, he left the jews blinded and commissioned Paul to take the new message of grace to the gentiles. James is written to the twelve tribes of Israel that are scattered. Read the beginning of the book of James and you know who he was talking to. You are mixing Israel with the gentiles and they are not given the same promises.
Re: Do dead saints labour in Heaven?
No, not according to scripture.
Revelaton 14:13 - "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours, and their works do follow them."
When we are here on the earth God has a work for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10) Part of that work is praying for people. In my labour for the Lord I have interceded on behalf of the people God gave me to minister to. But when I die, my work in the Lord ends and I cease to labour in the fields of the world for Him. And so does every saint.
Whatever seeds that God planted in someone's heart because of my work for the Lord or whatever prayers that I have offered in behalf of someone may not bear fruit while I am still alive on the earth but they will one day. I don't have to be alive for God to bring fruit from my labour here on the earth.
In Scipture Paul says a prayer of a righteous person availith much! We are called as christians to pray for one another are we not? Why do we ask our fellow christians to pray for us? When I went into surgery for a cancerous cell that had to be removed. I asked fellow Christians to pray for me to God for my health. This is not only biblical for me to request prayers from my friends, it is helpful. My friends on earth prayed for me and now I am healed.
The reason why Paul says that a prayer of a righteous person availith much is becuase number one a righteous person will pray for you to God, number two a righteous person loves God and lives a a life for Christ so of course their prayers will be heard.
No one is more righteous than those who have already gone to heaven right? I as an anglican do not believe physical death can sepparate the Body of Christ, nor does Scripture say contrary. We only have one mediator between God and man and that is Christ, and we are called to cooperate with Christ and intercede for all people to know and love Him. Asking your friends on earth or a Saint in Heaven to pray for us is no different.
I reject Cowboy what you said about faith and works. You cannot only go by what Paul says, you must take all of Scripture into account like James and what Jesus said in the Gospels too.
Catholics do not believe we are saved by works. It is not in their Catechism and it is a false position. Catholics were the first to fight this heresy called Palagianism or semi-Palagianism. In fact, the Catholic Church branded Palagian a heretic. Do you not remember your history either?
The question is; what is faith? Catholics also believe we are saved by Grace through faith, which is affirmed by the most recent Lutheran/Catholic accord on justification.
Faith doesn't mean that you can just believe in Jesus and that is it. The Devil believes in Jesus too. Faith is not soley an intellectual ascent of the mind. It is an agreement of mind and body. True faith shows itself in your actions. If you believe Jesus to be the Messiah, then you will act different from those who do not believe. Luther once said that I could commit adultery a thousand times and still be saved. This is not only anti-Scripture, is is a perversion of the Gospel. Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. If you willfully do bad works you will not be saved. God judges your heart. So if you do your best by keeping His commandments, which are good works and still get caught up in sin from time to time and constantly ask for forgiveness in a genuine and contrite heart, then you will be saved. We are made for good works, for those of us who know the Truth that is Christ.
The point I'm making is that Catholics do not believe in the least they can earn their way to heaven. You are creating false witness against your neighbor by saying this. Faith requires action. ONce you have faith, then Christ gives you the Grace for good works. If you only do bad, then the Grace of God does not rest in you. If you cooperate with God's grace you will be saved. He calls us to be holy.
Lastly,
The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any Biblical basis.
The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholic pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "...approach the throne of grace with confidence..."
1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25).
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(Continue from above)
With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God's throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
The RCC has taken biblical truth and so contanminated it with the wisdom of man and the practices of pagan religions that it is no longer truth. Their teachings are heretical. The RCC is an apostate church. Any one who places their faith in the teachings and practices of the RCC will perish.
Instead of flagging me then why don't you prove that you are right and I am wrong.
I will have to agre with AnglCat,
I've read many posts here and many before this and I have to say that both QueCat and Star2 are anti-Catholic Bigots. I am so thankful that the only place their so called Christian view can get any air time is on blogger boards. Catholics are not apostate, no more than when Reformation Protestants held that Baptists were Apostate or did you forget your history??
Catholics are Christians. Orthodox are Christians. If you can believe in the Apostles Creed and everthing in it, then you are a Christian.
The Jewish religion and the Church the body of Christ are not the same church. The Jewish church was under the law. We in the age of grace are not under the law. These are two different churches. The Catholic church teaches a works religion. You cannot be saved unless you do something. That is not what Paul taught. He taught salvation by faith 1 Cor 15 1-4. He is the apostle of the Gentiles. We gentiles were without God in the world. Read Ephesians and see that we had no part of the promises made to the Jew. Peter was a minister of the circumcision which is the Jews. The Catholic church is no different than Jehovahs witnesses or mormons. They all teach other than grace through faith. We are taught traditions of men, not the word of God. John Hagee is just trying to save his reputation. He is not the spokesman for all christianity. His opinions are his own but when It comes to the word of God, If you don't rightly divide scriputre, you will only get confusion. And studying the bible dispensationally is the only way you will truly know what God is doing in the age of grace. Unity is only valid if it is unity in the word for us today in the dispensation of grace.
You spin Scripture to your own detriment. You use personal situations and not scripture. What a relativist.
I've found many born again Catholics who were in a dead faith in Protestantism. I've also found Catholics who became evangelicals and are now alive in Christ. Sometimes even in our own house we miss the point, which is faith in the saving grace of Christ.
If you have any Children you will understand what I am saying. I can tell my kids what is good and bad, but sometimes they won't listen and when they hear it from someone else then they say look what new novel concept I heard...and Yet it was what I had been teaching them for years.
Your personal experience proves nothing. It only shows that we humans sometime have a funny way of learning. I know plenty of Catholic who pray their Rosary, but they don't think it saves them. They know that they are saved by the blood of Calvary, and the reason they take the Sacraments is to grow closer to God and the reason they pray the Rosary is to grow closer to God. Do you know anything at all about the Rosary? It is one of the most beautiful Christological prayers that exists after the "Our Father". The entire Rosary is about Christ's life and death. It is all Scripture. Since when did you have a problem with praying over Scripture???
John Hagee would rather please man than God.
The word "Pray" has be redefined by some radical groups to prove their point against Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and other ancient Christians. All early Christians believed that when our bodies die, and we go to heaven that the body of Christ is not sepparated. The body of Christ are believers in Jesus. How can someone who has physically died be sepparated from the Body of Christ?
They are just as much members in the body of Christ as you and I. I can only assume that you were a poorly taught Catholic to not understand this issue. Even I get it.
Pray is the English word for request. "Pray, will you give me some bread to eat." You simply cannot take a word that is extemely old and put your 21st Century spin on it.
In Revelation it is clear that the Saints in Heaven are aware of oiur pains and our wishes and we see how the Saints and Angels plead to God on our behalf. If that isn't intercession then I don't know what it is. It is also clear that when you die in Christ, that you will be alive with Christ in Heaven. There is no place in Scripture that says that the Body of Christ is sepparated by physical death.
Please use Scripture to prove your point and not just uneducated fundmentalists conjecture.
Mr. Anglocat,
You accuse me of bigotry towards my entire family then. Sadly, my father's entire family are staunch Methodists and my mother's considerably large family is born and bred Catholic. Thankfully, by the grace of God, both of my parents and therefore myself, were saved from the dead religion that they were previously walking in.
This is not about extremism, it's about what I have witnessed with my own eyes and life.
It's what scripture declares. 2Peter2 speaks at length about false prophets and their fate, but also speaks of those who they "entangle", saying that "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning".
There is no soul more difficult to preach the gospel of grace to, than the one who believes himself to already be right before God because of his own works.
I can see this dynamic in my own Catholic grandmother. She has been Catholic all her life and will listen to no one regarding her religion because she thinks she has DONE everything that is REQUIRED of her. Sure, she believes in Jesus and believes that she's saved, but her faith does not rest in Christ's blood alone. She believes she MUST partake of sacraments, she believes she MUST pray her rosary to Mary, and MUST this, and MUST that and on and on. This is all useless works and to add these things to the blood of Christ is to diminish Him and His sacrifice; to in essence say to Jesus "No, I don't believe that what you did was wholly sufficient for my salvation." This is no gospel at all !! Christ plus anything is a false sense of hope.
The apostle Paul points out that it is possible for us to become enslaved again after we have been set free. How does that happen? Whenever we add an element of self-effort (works or faith plus works) as a basis for gaining God's acceptance (the essence of legalism), we subject ourselves again to the yoke of slavery.
The Gospel is Christ and Him crucified, faith in Him and His shed blood as complete sufficiency for salvation. Faith plus NOTHING is my justification. Certainly my faith will naturally produce works by a grateful heart, but these works ADD NOTHING to my justification and never can. THIS is the liberty of the true gospel.
2Pe 2:19 Speaks of false prophets, " While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage."
Gal 5:1 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage (legalism; works-based salvation). "
I've read the Catechism too, and you can not find one place in it where Catholics worship Saints or Mary for that matter. You use the word "Pray" as if it actually means worship. The correct definition of pray as sighted by Saint Augustine is to make a request.
You simply have a false sense of the communion of Saints. You think the Saints who have died in Christ are dead. I beg to differ by using Scripture to say that Christ is the Lord of the Living and not the dead. The Saints in Heaven do know about our struggles on earth and it is illogical to think that now that they are in Heaven that they don't pray for us to God and that they cease to intercede on our behalf just like our friends on earth do.
You think praying to saints is worship and I think you are wrong because you have a faulty understanding of the word pray. Pray does not mean worship.
Ironically, it was the pope that said very recently that the unity of the early Christian community and the cohesion of its members "was based on the sound integrity of their doctrinal confession".
As the unity/ecumenical pressure increases, those opposing will be considered obstructions to a so-called "move of God." Any opposing views will be condemned as divisive, negative, proud, unloving, narrow, radical, or some other malicious label. To be able to stand against the criticism, avoid unholy entanglements, and be confident of your position.
All Scriptures that refer to church unity make clear that the true Church, the Body of Christ, is one already. The only way to be in the true Church is to be placed in the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit in regeneration; "the Body is one . . .all the members are one . . . for by one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body" (1 Cor. 12:12-13). "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Cor. 6:17). "You are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28). Nowhere are we admonished that it is WE who are to implement this unity.
In as much as the body of Christ cannot hide from the unification crusade, as conscientious and watchful Christians, we need to be keenly aware of what Scripture warns about the last days' generation. We must not only examine, but also scrutinize movements impacting the Church.
Mr. QueCat,
I've read many of your posts between you and some Catholics on this board, and I will affirm that it is Fundamentalists like you who give Protestants a bad name.
You are an extremist, you are a Catholic Bigot. Heck, you probably think Methodists, Lutherans and Anglicans are Apostate too because of our view of the Sacraments.
Again, please let faith and reason work together for good for them that that love the Lord and are called to His service.
"what we think Catholics believe and what they actually believe is amazingly different"
Really?
I know what I was taught in my Catholic Catechism classes as a child. And I thank God that I'm now a "loud mouthed fundamentalist" who no longer has to pray to Mary and the Saints!
So much for the "Straight Talk Express". Now we say what is politically expedient instead of standing by our convictions.
This is great news that Hagee finally apologized. Maybe someday soon the loud mouthed fundamentalists who think that no one is saved but them will die out. I agree with EvanCal. I pray that rational minds will prevail as we all seek Truth.
Unity is a command from God and for us to not work towards it, would be contrary to Scripture. We do have in some cases profound differences with Catholics that must be discussed. What I've found in the last 20 years of ecumenism is that what we think Catholics believe and what they actually believe is amazingly different.
The more we come to each other with the peace and love of Christ, and use Scriptures for reproofing and look at historical record to see how the first Christians understood God's message the closer we will come to Unity. May the Holy Spirit Guide us ALL into ALL TRUTH.
This is a great time for Christian unity. Yes, we do have differences with the Catholic Church, but they are not insurmountable if we continue to focus on Truth who is Christ. Unity means nothing at the expense of Truth and both sides agree.
Thank God that maybe it is finally time that anti-Catholic bashing will stop and people will come to their senses and stop calling Catholics an Apostate Church. The enemy is not the Catholics, the enemy is Relativism. Relativism is in every Church in some degree and we must stop relativism to focus on the Truth who is Jesus. There can be only one Truth and I can guarantee you some of us Christians have certain points that are correct and other Christians have points that are correct too. Let us all embrace all that is True and get rid of all that is false, then we can have true Christian unity not only with Catholics but within the Protestant communions too.
I thank Pastor Hagee for his apology, it is well over due. I accept Catholics as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ because of what we have in common is far greater than what we have at variance.
Pastor Hagee has never claimed that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. Pastor Hagee knows Jesus is the Messiah and while I don't like his dispensational views, he is still a Christian.
Thank you for your apology. It is about time!!! Today, only fundamentalists still hold on to the notion that Catholics are apostate and only a minority of ultraTraditional Catholics think Protestants are Apostate. May clear and rational minds prevail, guided by the Holy Spirit into all Truth.
THE CATHOLIC IS THE ORIGINAL CHRISTIAN CHURCH, THE ONLY WAY HAGEE COULD PAY HIMSELF THE MILLIONS HE HAS OVER THE YEARS IS TO PREACH THIS RIGHT WING RED NECK BIBLE THUMPING HATE THAT COMES OUT OF HIS OVERSIZED MOUTH, FRANKLY THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO NEED TO APOLOGIZE.