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Society|Thu, May. 15 2008 02:33 PM EDT

Calif. Court Says 'Yes' to Gay 'Marriage'

By Alexander J. Sheffrin|Christian Post Reporter

SAN FRANCISCO – In what was a day of shame for pro-family groups everywhere, the California Supreme Court ruled 4-3 Thursday morning to join Massachusetts as the second state to recognize same-sex “marriage.”

  • same-sex 'marriage'
    (Photo: AP Images / Eric Riserg)
    San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom and his Director of Communications, Nathan Ballard, right, reacts to the news that the California Supreme Court has overturned a ban on gay 'marriages,' in his office in San Francisco, Thursday, May 15, 2008.

In the court’s opinion, Chief Justice Ron George ruled that the ban on same-sex “marriage” was “discriminatory” and that “domestic partnerships are not a good enough substitute for marriage.” The court's decision overturns state laws prohibiting same-sex nuptials.

Dozens of gay couples who gathered outside the Sacramento courthouse met the ruling with cheers and jubilation as pro-family advocates protested nearby.

"We'll have each other forever, but we deserve the same rights as everybody else," David Bowers told the Sacramento Bee, as he stood by his gay partner. "How can it hurt anyone else?” he asked.

San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, who performed thousands of same-sex "marriages" in 2004 in defiance of state law, praised the ruling. "We had our day in court and we won. Real people won," Newsom said, according to San Jose Mercury News. "People feel their lives are affirmed."

But Matt Barber of the pro-family Concerned Women for America believes the ruling by the California Supreme Court was the “worst kind of judicial activism today” and represented a rejection of the court’s supposed role “as an objective interpreter of the law.”

"So-called 'same-sex' marriage is counterfeit marriage. Marriage is, and has always been, between a man and a woman,” he said in a statement shortly after the court’s decision.

Although pro-family groups were undoubtedly disheartened by the court’s decision, they were adamant that citizens would vote positively on a constitutional amendment to ban gay “marriage” during this year’s election in November.

Over 1 million signatures have been collected to place the measure on the ballot for the public to vote on. The initiative is still being processed by the State Registrar.

If a majority of state residents vote positively on the ban, the amendment will overturn and nullify the decision by the California Supreme Court.

"The majority of Americans recognize the fact that legitimate marriage and family are cornerstones of a healthy society,” CWA’s Barber noted.

Ron Prentice, executive director of the Sacramento and Riverside-based California Family Council, stressed the importance of the November vote after Thursday’s high court decision.

"We have not been able to count on the legislature or the courts of California to adhere to the will of the people," Prentice told the Los Angeles Times. "This is yet another example why the people need to go to the polls in November to defend the historic and natural definition of marriage."

Matt Daniels, president and founder of the Alliance for Marriage Foundation, called California “ground zero” in the battle to protect traditional marriage. “[T]he fight in California must now be joined in the Congress,” he said.

Since 2004, when the Massachusetts State Supreme Court made its ruling to recognize gay “marriage,” 26 states have passed a constitutional ban on the practice, while over a dozen others have passed laws limiting or outlawing it.

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  • Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:14 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Homophobia (from Greek homós: one and the same; phóbos: fear, phobia) is a term used to describe irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuals. It can also mean "irrational fear or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals".

  • Thu May 22, 2008 11:39 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

    continued to ifeelfine:

    by your statements. If you repent (turn away) from the error of this thinking, then Jesus Christ can set you free if you would just yield to His leading and His Word. I will be praying for you.

  • Thu May 22, 2008 11:39 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

    continued to ifeelfine:

    When I hear you make assumptions about "well what about divorce", and then whe one tells you that God hates divorce, but unfortunately sinful men make choices against God's Will and choose their own path, you will dismiss it, and say that we are contradictory, or when you say things like "well what about pedophilia not being mentioned in the Bible",when concerned brothers in Christ pull up Leviticus 8 to prove that the latter is in the Bible, you dismiss it by saying it is ceremonial Jewish Law, and not moral law. I tell you ifeelfine, you can, and most probably wil continue on your deceived mindset thinking it's ok to be actively homosexual(not repentant) and be Christian, but I tell you that even though you may adhere to that fallacy not knowing the Scriptures, it still doesn't change God's absolute authority in the Word. He loves the sinner, but hates(detests) sin. He beckons all of us siners to come to Him thru Jesus Christ, but we must chose this day whom we will serve. If Christ is trully Lord of our lives, then we will want to obey His Word. If we believe that Christ is God in the Flesh who rose again on the Third Day to conquer sin and death, then we must show our love for Him by Obeying the Father. Jesus said "not my will, but you're be done". In other word's we must be willing to die to our opinions, pre-suppositions, and unltimately our wills and put on Christ. We do not obtain Salvation thru good works; however, after having acepted the grace of God and seeing what it costs Him thru Jesus Christ, then we will choose to change course(repent). Please ifeelfine, i have been pleading with you to repent of your error for quite a while now. It is ultimately up to you. If you were like the Bereans (for that matter, if we were all like the Bereans) and search the Scriptures daily, then we would have a fuller, deeper knowledge of God's expressed Will according to His Word. Repent Ifeelfine, repent or else you WILL have a rude awakening before your Creator; obviously your mind is twisted with regard to what is and what is not sin, and a lot of it has to do with the cultural relativity you so proclaim

  • Thu May 22, 2008 11:38 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

    ifeelfine wrote:

    "Wilderness: What does that say about lesbians? They must be the chosen ones then."


    Ifeelfine, how far you have strayed from the whole counsel of God that you would think like a heathen in regards to what God has set forth as HIS plan for mankind when it comes to marriage. First you try to make a suggestion that David and Jonathan were gay, and you try to twist the Scriptures to make your point, and now you try to distort what wilderness is saying. Man, get right with God! There are obviously things in Scripture which are black and white; no shady tones of grey are allowed, and this is one of them. I know you are not too fond of the Apostle Paul and his teachings on the subject because it goes totally against your views on the subject, but remember this is the man that was appeared to by Christ Himself on the road to Damascus and gave his life for the Gospel's sake. Please ifeelfine, stop trying to reason with today's culture and just give heed to what the Holy Spirit of God says in His Word (both Old and New Testament). It grieves me when you proclaim to be born again. You quote Scriptures that show the Grace of God, but I never see you balance them with the other Scriptures that warn Christians to turn their backs on sin. I think the real issue at hand is whether you believe the Word of God to be the Inherrent Inspired Word of God holy, flawless and without error, and whether you adhere to what God's expressed Will for mankind is, and it's ultimate authority upon the believer in Christ.

  • Thu May 22, 2008 9:17 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    “Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man” (1 Corinthians 11:8, 9).

    A relationship of man to man is each rejecting the woman that God has created for them.
    A relationship of woman to woman is each rejecting the man whom God created them for. Homosexual relationships are in direct rebellion against God our creator. Take heed:
    “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry” (1Sa 15:23).

  • Thu May 22, 2008 8:38 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    Wilderness: What does that say about lesbians? They must be the chosen ones then.

  • Wed May 21, 2008 10:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Pr 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

    If you are a man finding a man, then you are not finding a good thing. Why perish? “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt 3:2).

  • Wed May 21, 2008 8:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Jesusis1: It almost seems as though you revel in that belief that God might smite the West Coast. Proud are we?

  • Tom »
    Wed May 21, 2008 8:43 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Jesus4me, Quecat and others who stand up for what the Gospel says may God richly bless you all. It is refreshing to see others standup to the unbelievers and the apostate so called christian that post here. I encourge you all to keep going in Jesus name. Jesus said there would be those who have forsaken the ways of God and fallen for the lies of the world. By reading some of the post here I see He was right. As Christians we need to stand up for what is right in the eyes of Almightly God and sin---no matterif its homosexaulity,adultry,living togeather,gossip,drunkeness,lieing or teaching others thru their words the ways contary of God need to be preach against and resisted by those who follow this Jesus of the Bible. Again thank you and God Bless ya's In Christ Tom

  • Wed May 21, 2008 5:02 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Curious - if Dongard doesn't believe in God anyway - why would he refer to an earthquake as being mass murder? You sound conflicted.

  • Wed May 21, 2008 2:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    dongard,

    "you don't like the result of a policy decision, so now you are advocating mass murder and destruction. how christian of you."

    Since God is the Author of Life, God cannot murder. Therefore, if God chooses to take away or allows the taking away of life through natural disaster, He is not committing murder.

  • Wed May 21, 2008 11:26 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    Jesusis1

    you don't like the result of a policy decision, so now you are advocating mass murder and destruction. how christian of you.

  • Wed May 21, 2008 9:47 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    "Anyone see a major earthquake hitting the west coast?"

    Let me guess.... almighty god is punishing the California Supreme Court for legalizing same-sex marriage. LOL

  • Wed May 21, 2008 12:47 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    1 Cornthians 6:9-20

    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
    Glorify God in Body and Spirit

    12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.
    15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”[b] 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
    18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are God’s.

    Footnotes:

    1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
    1 Corinthians 6:16 Genesis 2:24
    1 Corinthians 6:20 NU-Text ends the verse at bod

  • Tue May 20, 2008 11:49 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Quecat, I'm very familiar with Calvary Chapel Ft.Lauderdale. Both I and my wife used to sit under Bob Coy's teachings when we lived in Florida. A few years back, the Lord took us out of Florida, and now we sit under the teaching of another Calvary Chapel Pastor in the Dallas Ft. Worth Metroplex area. We get to listen to Calvary Satellite Radio here, so it's really cool to be able to hear Pastor Chuck Smith in the mornings teaching his verse by verse teacings on the radio on my way to work in the mornings, and then i get to hear Greg Laurie with "A New Beginning", and then then comes David Rosales which I really enjoy as well......there is so much meat in the Word that needs to be taught in today's churches, but everyone just wants the fluffy "feel-good" motivational TBN style Christianity, or the Liberal post modernism that has hyjacked most of America's churches. Good talking to you. Hey, I have a question: Has anyone heard anymore from Prophet? I haven't been on the site for a while and was just wondering. Anyways, good night.

  • Tue May 20, 2008 10:54 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    jesus4me

    Amen brother! - and might I add another Calvary teacher to the list: Bob Coy. I sure miss him being on the radio, but I still catch his podcasts.

    Maranatha!

  • Tue May 20, 2008 1:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jesus4me,

    You seem to have mistaken me for a believer. The reason why I think you're a raving lunatic is because I think the bible is nothing more than a storybook, and god is an illusion created by man to solve the unanswered questions in life.

  • Mon May 19, 2008 10:31 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    That's funny, weren't the early Christians also criticized for their "pure and unadulterated teachings of the Word of God"? Weren't some of them imprisoned for teaching "The Way of Salvation in Jesus Christ". Weren't some of them mocked at, scoffed, beaten, spit on, and acused of being madmen who were crazy (raving lunatics)? Of course they were, and the Bible warrants that all those who trully believ in Christ will suffer persecution. Having said that, persecution doesn't necessarily have to come in the form of stoning, but in the form of those who claim to know Christ, but are mistaken; not knowing the Word of God have erred from the Truth.

  • Mon May 19, 2008 10:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    It's too bad that some of you can't listen to yourselves.... maybe then you'd realize how much you sound like raving lunatics.

  • Mon May 19, 2008 10:20 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Regardles of this totally immoral and lascivious abuse in ruling by the San Francisco Supreme Court, the Church must continue to stay in Sound Doctrine, For the time IS here, that men are not enduring Sound Doctrine, but are turning their ears to deceiving spirits, doctrines of demons, and deceptive teachings meant to tickle the ears of men. You see, it is virtually unheard of nowadays in society to agree that moral absolutes exist (unless you are a bor again Christian as the Bible defines one; not how our culture may or may not define one). You may ask why? Well, one of the reasons i believe is that we all know that a majority of the church in North America and around the world was sleeping when the slippery slope of the '60's sexual revolution coupled by illicit drug use, found it's way into America, and in it's trail brought satanism, other occultic practices, and the new age (a form of hinduism for western thought). Thank God for His Son Jesus Christ, and His Holy Spirit moving in the 60's and 70's in movements like the Jesus Movement, that preached Jesus as the only Way, the Only Truth, and the Only Life in this wicked and perverse generation. This movement gave birth to wat we know today as Calvary Chapel's. Other Christian movement's were well and actively preaching during this time, but some mainstream denominations didn't even want to associate with hippie ouths. Thank God for men like Billy Graham, Chuck Smith, Greg Laurie, Skip Heitzig, David Rosales, Raul Reese, and other's who have dedicated their lives to teaching the Word and proclaiming the Only Good News that is meant to set the sinner free from his/her captivity of sin - that is Jesus Christ came to save us sinners and set us free from the bondae of sin to serve Him! Amen.

  • Mon May 19, 2008 9:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Obviously, we do not set the natural order of things. God does. It is up to us to accept or reject His Absolute Truth. Obviously here the secular court system of San Franfrico (San francisco) has turned blind sided on what God has ordained. Having said that, God will not turn a blind eye towards this abherration unless of course there is a turning away (repentance).

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New King James Version)
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.


    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Footnotes:

    1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites



    Eph 5:3-7 "But FORNICATION, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

    1Cr 5:9-13 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–
    not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
    What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

    Accept the repentant sinner; Absolutely yes!!!!!!! Accept the unrepentant as a brother? God forbid! This goes against God's Word.

  • Mon May 19, 2008 1:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You constantly hear proponents of one "progressive" measure or another ridiculing the concept of the slippery-slope. Here's a fantastic example of this supposedly non-existent phenomenon:

    "Recent experience in The Netherlands illustrates where deceptive language about euthanasia can lead. When The Netherlands first legalized euthanasia, it was only allowed in rare cases of "intolerable suffering." "The guidelines were designed specifically to keep assisted suicide occurrences few and far between by establishing demanding conditions that had to be met, at the risk of criminal prosecution." Yet doctors soon began interpreting these guidelines broadly, and the government and the courts did almost nothing to prevent it. Now the Netherlands, under its euthanasia law, allows the killing of infants with non-life threatening birth defects. Additionally, Dutch doctors are euthanizing patients without their permission. Repeated studies have demonstrated that 900-1000 patients experience "termination without request or consent" every year. The Dutch government usually turns a blind eye to this illegal practice as well.

    If The Netherlands is any indication, the citizens of the United States ought to guard aggressively against the rhetorical gyrations of euthanasia's proponents. No matter how flowery their language is, they promote the killing of human beings. They propose a "right to die" but, in actuality, they want the right to kill."
    http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080518/32419_Encouraging_Death.htm

  • Mon May 19, 2008 11:00 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    dbrydges,

    “Each act you listed has a victim, a real person who endures a measurable negative consequence of the action. Homosexuality is not the same.”

    Says who? Have you heard some of the testimonials of those who have come out of the gay sub-culture? Have you not seen videos of the Castro Street Fair in San Francisco? And the negative consequence does not always have to be immediately measurable. What about the societal boundaries allowing older men to marry 12 or 13 year old girls. Is she not a victim since in their society it is deemed legal and acceptable? And even if there is a victim, who cares if there are no moral absolutes. After all, survival of the fittest, right? I do not have to have the rightful authority over another person; the only thing that is important is whether I have the power to do it. And no one can say that I am wrong in exercising that power; they may disagree, but cannot say that I’m wrong. And what about child pornography? And I'm not talking about the victims... let's assume NO NEW victims... with the millions of child pornography already out there, is it morally licit to possess any of these for those with sexual attraction to prepubescent children? Or do you want to set that boundary elsewhere?

    “Humanity by our very nature violate "natural law" all of the time. We alter our environment to suit our needs, we use science to be able to things we can not naturally do, it is not immoral, it is a reality of the human condition.”

    You are confusing ‘natural law’ with ‘laws of nature.’

    “It's very much like the Taleban but without the power to do anything about it.”

    Christianity is like the Taliban?

  • Sun May 18, 2008 9:39 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    "Similarly, just as a person who may have a predisposition to alcoholism, stealing, sexual attraction to prepubescent girls, or whatever long before they ever committed the act is different and separate from the act itself."

    Each act you listed has a victim, a real person who endures a measurable negative consequence of the action. Homosexuality is not the same. You do realize that heterosexual couples can also engage in "unnatural" sex. Should we legislate against that? Should we put a camera in peoples homes to ensure this does not happen? Homosexual couples also might not engage in any sex, just as some seniors who marry do not engage in sex. I actually know homosexuals who have not engaged in certain sexual activities. They are still homosexuals, some of them have partners, and at least one of those couples is married. Now given that they are not violating "natural law" as you call it, why should they not be married. Because you don't like it? Of course I have no problem with consenting adults engaging in sex, society has no business in the bedrooms of the nation.

    "the difference is whether we legislate morality that can be determined through natural law."

    Humanity by our very nature violate "natural law" all of the time. We alter our environment to suit our needs, we use science to be able to things we can not naturally do, it is not immoral, it is a reality of the human condition.

    "You know good and well that is not what john14-6 is saying."

    Actually I think that's exactly what he is saying. He says, "Society has a right to set boundaries on any behavior" Of course he then complains when he does not agree with the boundaries that society sets, see his monologue against the sexual revolution as an example, and I'm sure would like nothing more than to bend society towards his notion of morality, as I'm sure so would you. Society is not immutable and it may be that one day a majority of American society will support the marriage of same-sex couples, but both you and him would still oppose same-sex marriages and would still probably support legislated bans. We in Canada are already at that point where a majority of Canadians do not oppose same-sex marriages, and those with a religious agenda are still trying to enforce their notions of morality on the rest of us. It's very much like the Taleban but without the power to do anything about it.

  • Sun May 18, 2008 9:05 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    jesusismyhomie,

    You know good and well that is not what john14-6 is saying.

  • Sun May 18, 2008 3:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    dbrydges,

    “the sex act is separate from sexuality, it has to do with sexual attraction. I was a heterosexual long before I was sexually active.”

    I agree, which is why it is not necessarily a sin to have same-sex attraction, but it is altogether different to act out on that disposition. So yes, they are separate. Similarly, just as a person who may have a predisposition to alcoholism, stealing, sexual attraction to prepubescent girls, or whatever long before they ever committed the act is different and separate from the act itself.

    “Do you wish to prevent other sovereign people from exercising their free will and self determination to engage in "sin" that you find offensive. Do you try to prevent Muslims from worshiping Allah? Do you think we should legislate against worshiping what you consider false idols? Should we pass constitutional amendments to ban all faiths but Christianity or strip them of their tax free status as religious institutions?”

    No, but the difference is whether we legislate morality that can be determined through natural law. I am not for legislating articles of faith that can only be determined through divine revelation, but things that can be determined through natural law certainly should be. An easy example would be murder. Certainly, this is a moral precept of Christianity and many other religions, but the legislation against unjustly taking another person’s life is still reasonable because murder is understood to be wrong through natural law; i.e., it did not require divine revelation to reveal this truth. However, it would be wrong to legislate that Muslims should not worship Allah but rather the Triune God of Christianity. This is not revealed in natural law, but through divine revelation.

  • Sun May 18, 2008 12:35 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    irenaeus, the sex act is separate from sexuality, it has to do with sexual attraction. I was a heterosexual long before I was sexually active. If you find homosexual sex unappealing, then don't have any. Do you wish to prevent other sovereign people from exercising their free will and self determination to engage in "sin" that you find offensive. Do you try to prevent Muslims from worshiping Allah? Do you think we should legislate against worshiping what you consider false idols? Should we pass constitutional amendments to ban all faiths but Christianity or strip them of their tax free status as religious institutions? And if the answer is no, then why do you consider homosexuality a worse sin than worshiping a false idol, or denying the holy spirit?

    This is not a flame, I just don't understand the rational, it seems somewhat hypocritical to rail so firmly against government recognition of one "sin" while simply accepting that the government protects many others. I see it as the is the easiest battle in the war for an American theocracy.

  • Sun May 18, 2008 12:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    dbrydges,

    “Most definitely not orthodox, orthodox Christianity has a pretty checkered past.”

    Not sure what you mean by checkered past or what this has to do with faithfully handing on to the successive generation of Christians what Jesus and apostles taught.

    “I have no moral issues with any of these with the exception of incest, but that's probably not something I can properly rationalize, it's probably just societally indoctrinated.”

    Fair, at least you are being logically consistent.

    “understand that I do not think that homosexuality is a choice.”

    Neither is it necessarily a choice for alcoholism, kleptomania, sexual attraction to prepubescent girls, etc. So choice is irrelevant; it’s the acting out on certain dispositions (or predispositions) that is in question.

  • Sun May 18, 2008 1:51 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    John, understand that I do not think that homosexuality is a choice. I certainly don't feel I had a choice to be a heterosexual, I just am. So when you call homosexuality aberrant and claim it is a destructive force in society (without a shred of evidence I might add), you are condemning people for who they are. I consider that hateful. When did you decide to become a heterosexual? Myself, I never decided to be sexually attracted to women, I was simply born that way.

  • Sun May 18, 2008 1:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    dbrydges--

    How sad it is that you compare anything you disagree with to "hate". This is a typical tactic of the left, in particular. You can call it hateful, or anything else you want to, but I have no hate in my heart for anyone. You don't know my heart, but the Lord does. But it's typical of those who support some left wing agenda to declare "hateful" anyone or anything that stands in their way. If there is any hatred, it typically comes in the bitter, venomous, vitriol that comes from the homosexual lobby. You never hear so much venom and hate as comes from that quarter. But nice try.

    As I said to jesusismyhomie, you confuse "liberty" with "libertine". Homosexuality is a destructive influence in any society and it is the reason that virtually no human civilization has ever supported or tolerated open homosexuality, and certainly nothing like homosexual "marriage" or "unions". Not even the Greeks allowed such open behavior. There's a reason for that. Maybe you should think on it and ponder why.

    The Bible declares homosexuality a sin, and our Judeo-Christian society has always upheld the value that homosexuality was an aberrant behavior. Certainly it is not worthy of recognition on an equal level to heterosexual marriage. The reason for this is obvious, but I would gather that it probably escapes you.

  • Sun May 18, 2008 1:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The people of California will have the last word on this one, and they will vote for the amendment to the state constitution that will put this issue to rest. The gays may have found four black robed tyrants who would overturn the will of over six million voters, but the voters will have the final say. The gays won this round, through Stalinist tactics that are utterly against democracy, but they will not win the fight. The people will win. The constitution of the state will be amended and gay marriage will be declared invalid.

    To suggest that two homosexuals, in violation of the natural order, and God's expressed will, are somehow "equal" or deserving of equal recognition under the title "marriage" - as if they are as valid a "family" as a heterosexual couple who marry to have and raise children - is an outrage to civil society, the natural order, basic decency, and plain common sense.

    Gay marriage will be defeated. Homosexuality is an abomination, and pro-homosexual groups and individuals can rail against it all day long, but the simple fact remains that the natural instinct of the majority of the people on the planet is revulsion and disgust when it comes to homosexual behavior. There's a reason for this. It's because of what Paul described, in Romans, as the natural law written on the human heart. People instinctively know right from wrong. Homosexuality is wrong, on both a physical anatomical level, and on a moral and societal level. It is an abomination, as it says in Leviticus, and it is described as one of the grave sins, in Romans and in 1 Corinthians, for which no one who practices such behavior will ever inherit the kingdom of God. I am speaking the truth, in love, but it is the truth.

    Now, to the Nazis who are flagging everything on this thread and the others - I have written the plain truth. So, go ahead and flag this. I will be checking this thread and the others and *will immediately repost this* each and every time you flag it. Your totalitarian attempt to silence the speech of the good Christians on these threads is disgusting. It will not stand.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 11:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "That’s why I wondered whether you would consider wife swapping, incestuous relationships, polygamist relationships, orgies, etc (provided they were done under the advocacy of loving one another) as morally licit. After all, these are consensual examples."

    I have no moral issues with any of these with the exception of incest, but that's probably not something I can properly rationalize, it's probably just societally indoctrinated. The danger of producing damaged offspring is certainly a consideration that adds some weight. So yeah pretty much if all parties are consenting adults I have no issues with these (incest is still taboo in my mind though) And I assume you think all of them immoral because you've been told it is. I prefer to think rather than follow blindly. To each his/her own - that's what freedom is about.

    Note: flagged my own to fix a typo.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 11:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "Hardly an orthodox Christian view."

    Most definitely not orthodox, orthodox Christianity has a pretty checkered past. I don't put much stock in it.

    "It’s rather easy to live more Christ-like if your positions are so liberal that all the moral demands are watered down."

    I knew someone would claim something like this. Meh, your opinion is about as valuable to me as a warm bucket of hamster vomit. The simple fact of the matter is my father doesn't think that the Bible is literal, it is allegorical, it is midrash, and in some cases just plain fiction. He's actually read much of it in it's original language so I'll take his word for it. It's also very colored and biased by the authors, the many translators, and the social norms of the times in which it was written. I really don't know how anyone can get anything out of it, especially just reading it without knowing or at least studying the societal context in which it was written.

    I don't consider the Bible an authoritative source on anything accept what the Bible says, like this post is an authoritative source on what this post says, my father would disagree with me in this respect.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Graves01,

    "I work for one of the largest Chemical companies in the world as a chemical engineer."

    Do you have an employee number that begins with a 'u'? Just curious, as I also work for one of the largest Chemical companies in the world and was curious if it may be the same one.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:46 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    dbrydges,,

    “You have decided to take a gamble that your god is real, and I decided that it is intellectually dishonest to claim I know something that is clearly unknowable.”

    Why, if there is a god, would he be clearly unknowable? If there is a god, could he not make himself known?

    “He supports the rights of Gays to marry and recognizes (or believes if you prefer) that the Bible is not the infallible word of God. Like I said before, you'd probably claim he's not a true Christian, but he lives a more Christ like life than most people I know.”

    It’s rather easy to live more Christ-like if your positions are so liberal that all the moral demands are watered down. I know some who are rather promiscuous who claim to be Christians, but provided they love others, give to the poor, and are liberal enough that their sexual promiscuity is not considered sinful, well, I guess they would say they are living Christ-like lives.

    “My father also believes… that Jesus was a man and was not divine until after the resurrection.”

    Hardly an orthodox Christian view.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    dbrydges,

    “No one can provide a rational for the immorality of homosexuality that does not rely on religious argument.”

    There is no morality outside of religion because everything is then deemed relative. What’s truth to you may not be truth for me, and vice versa.

    “You're talking about where there is only one consenting adult, the other is a victim. Get a life, your fear mongering hyperbole is going nowhere. We're talking about where both parties to the act are consenting adults, and no one else is involved.”

    That’s why I wondered whether you would consider wife swapping, incestuous relationships, polygamist relationships, orgies, etc (provided they were done under the advocacy of loving one another) as morally licit. After all, these are consensual examples.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    postman: I know you're gone now, but I can't talk to god again, I've never talked to him in the first place. At one time I lied about it and claimed that I had because it would not have been socially acceptable not to have "spoken" with god, it was all a lie because of social pressures. But if he calls me up tonight I'll let you know.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    same for me guys. it has been inspirational. a message to all. dbridges take a moment and talk to god again, but instead for waiting on him to answer in you time let him answer in his. jesusismyhomie, i pray god opens not only your eyes but also your heart to his truth and not the worlds. all others, may god bless and show mercy in all our lives. good night. i got church and god bless

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:20 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    postman: don't bother, I've heard it all before. I simply do not know if there is a God or not that's why I call myself agnostic (A weak atheist as opposed to a strong atheist who is sure) I'm most definitely not sure of any particular god, Christ or Yahweh or Krishna or Shiva or Vishnu or.... and I'm comfortable that I never will be. I'm also sure that a truly just god wouldn't hold it against me, and if he's not that "just" then why call him god.

    I'm happy you think God gave you a wonderful experience. You've certainly convinced yourself that it was a particular God, but you're interpretation of your own experiences are nothing to me, how could it be. I've met people who have had experiences that they attribute to another God or even Gods in a few cases, they are equally as convinced, and thought I should be too. Sorry, it's not going to happen.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dbrydges
    You are right, that goes against the very grain of all I believe, I have enjoyed debating with you tonight, but I gotta get some sleep. Church tomorrow. Im sure we will get to butt heads again soon. Take care and God bless.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:11 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    dbrydges i have to tell you that i was somewhat scared the first time i went to a church that believed in true freedom of worship. but it was nothing in the line of hatred. there are many churches in this WORLD that are only in it for the money, among other reasons other than trying to spread the love of Jesus Christ. But that dosn't mean that God's church dosn't love the people in this world (including jesusismyhomie). you say you were raised in a christian community. you were raised to know the truth. whether or not you believe is definately your decision. but you still have a measure of faith in god. you can deny it all you want, but it is still there. i don't know what experiances you have had as a youth, but i tell you this, god is still there waiting for you. he hasn't turned his back on you. he allows us to go through different events in our lives for a reason. none of these is to turn you from him but to come to rely fully upon him. i have had many reasons to turn my back on god. but i have been in his miricals also. i know that god is real. not because of what i have been taught for learned in church, but because god gave me an experiance that was undeniably hime working in my life.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    We have long religious discussions. My father also believes that Christ may have been married to Mary Magdelan and had children, and that Jesus was a man and was not divine until after the resurrection. He doesn't claim to know beyond a doubt however, that's just where his studies have pointed him.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Bible is not the infallible word of God.
    Then what did he preach?

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:03 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    I don't consider my father to be a fool, though we disagree on religion, faith and god. But my father also believes that there are several paths to heaven, (I'm sure you'd say he's not a true Christian) and he respects other faiths and belief systems. He has studied other religions, he can read ancient Hebrew, and Latin and has studied the Dead Sea Scrolls. He's well educated, and a very-very liberal Christian, and he believes that Christ was too.

    He supports the rights of Gays to marry and recognizes (or believes if you prefer) that the Bible is not the infallible word of God. Like I said before, you'd probably claim he's not a true Christian, but he lives a more Christ like life than most people I know.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    delivery_from_postman:

    You are truly naive and delusional.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dbrydges
    lol They scared me a few times too.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 9:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    dbrydges
    I will not deny the hypocrites in the church. However, they will be judged accordingly.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 9:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I have been to more that one Pentacostal church, I found the experience scary and the people to be unthinking and full of hatred for outsiders, though it wasn't overt hatred, it was far more covert, and it was all dressed up and called concern or love but it was definitely not love. Sorry that was my impression.

  • Sat May 17, 2008 9:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dbrydges
    Do you consider your father to be a fool?

  • Sat May 17, 2008 9:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    u are probably right. 40 years ago less than 33% of the world claimed to be christians. seems to me the rest of the world may be wising up after all. i do hope that God's mercy and patiance lasts just a little longer. don't get me wrong, I am ready for Christ's return, but I'd hate to see 2/3's of this world's population to face final judgement without knowing Christ. I do pray that god's mercy be upon us all and that his truth will come to light in the eyes of those here tonight.

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