SAN FRANCISCO – In what was a day of shame for pro-family groups everywhere, the California Supreme Court ruled 4-3 Thursday morning to join Massachusetts as the second state to recognize same-sex “marriage.”
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(Photo: AP Images / Eric Riserg)San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom and his Director of Communications, Nathan Ballard, right, reacts to the news that the California Supreme Court has overturned a ban on gay 'marriages,' in his office in San Francisco, Thursday, May 15, 2008.
In the court’s opinion, Chief Justice Ron George ruled that the ban on same-sex “marriage” was “discriminatory” and that “domestic partnerships are not a good enough substitute for marriage.” The court's decision overturns state laws prohibiting same-sex nuptials.
Dozens of gay couples who gathered outside the Sacramento courthouse met the ruling with cheers and jubilation as pro-family advocates protested nearby.
"We'll have each other forever, but we deserve the same rights as everybody else," David Bowers told the Sacramento Bee, as he stood by his gay partner. "How can it hurt anyone else?” he asked.
San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, who performed thousands of same-sex "marriages" in 2004 in defiance of state law, praised the ruling. "We had our day in court and we won. Real people won," Newsom said, according to San Jose Mercury News. "People feel their lives are affirmed."
But Matt Barber of the pro-family Concerned Women for America believes the ruling by the California Supreme Court was the “worst kind of judicial activism today” and represented a rejection of the court’s supposed role “as an objective interpreter of the law.”
"So-called 'same-sex' marriage is counterfeit marriage. Marriage is, and has always been, between a man and a woman,” he said in a statement shortly after the court’s decision.
Although pro-family groups were undoubtedly disheartened by the court’s decision, they were adamant that citizens would vote positively on a constitutional amendment to ban gay “marriage” during this year’s election in November.
Over 1 million signatures have been collected to place the measure on the ballot for the public to vote on. The initiative is still being processed by the State Registrar.
If a majority of state residents vote positively on the ban, the amendment will overturn and nullify the decision by the California Supreme Court.
"The majority of Americans recognize the fact that legitimate marriage and family are cornerstones of a healthy society,” CWA’s Barber noted.
Ron Prentice, executive director of the Sacramento and Riverside-based California Family Council, stressed the importance of the November vote after Thursday’s high court decision.
"We have not been able to count on the legislature or the courts of California to adhere to the will of the people," Prentice told the Los Angeles Times. "This is yet another example why the people need to go to the polls in November to defend the historic and natural definition of marriage."
Matt Daniels, president and founder of the Alliance for Marriage Foundation, called California “ground zero” in the battle to protect traditional marriage. “[T]he fight in California must now be joined in the Congress,” he said.
Since 2004, when the Massachusetts State Supreme Court made its ruling to recognize gay “marriage,” 26 states have passed a constitutional ban on the practice, while over a dozen others have passed laws limiting or outlawing it.
Homophobia (from Greek homós: one and the same; phóbos: fear, phobia) is a term used to describe irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuals. It can also mean "irrational fear or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals".
continued to ifeelfine:
by your statements. If you repent (turn away) from the error of this thinking, then Jesus Christ can set you free if you would just yield to His leading and His Word. I will be praying for you.
continued to ifeelfine:
When I hear you make assumptions about "well what about divorce", and then whe one tells you that God hates divorce, but unfortunately sinful men make choices against God's Will and choose their own path, you will dismiss it, and say that we are contradictory, or when you say things like "well what about pedophilia not being mentioned in the Bible",when concerned brothers in Christ pull up Leviticus 8 to prove that the latter is in the Bible, you dismiss it by saying it is ceremonial Jewish Law, and not moral law. I tell you ifeelfine, you can, and most probably wil continue on your deceived mindset thinking it's ok to be actively homosexual(not repentant) and be Christian, but I tell you that even though you may adhere to that fallacy not knowing the Scriptures, it still doesn't change God's absolute authority in the Word. He loves the sinner, but hates(detests) sin. He beckons all of us siners to come to Him thru Jesus Christ, but we must chose this day whom we will serve. If Christ is trully Lord of our lives, then we will want to obey His Word. If we believe that Christ is God in the Flesh who rose again on the Third Day to conquer sin and death, then we must show our love for Him by Obeying the Father. Jesus said "not my will, but you're be done". In other word's we must be willing to die to our opinions, pre-suppositions, and unltimately our wills and put on Christ. We do not obtain Salvation thru good works; however, after having acepted the grace of God and seeing what it costs Him thru Jesus Christ, then we will choose to change course(repent). Please ifeelfine, i have been pleading with you to repent of your error for quite a while now. It is ultimately up to you. If you were like the Bereans (for that matter, if we were all like the Bereans) and search the Scriptures daily, then we would have a fuller, deeper knowledge of God's expressed Will according to His Word. Repent Ifeelfine, repent or else you WILL have a rude awakening before your Creator; obviously your mind is twisted with regard to what is and what is not sin, and a lot of it has to do with the cultural relativity you so proclaim
ifeelfine wrote:
"Wilderness: What does that say about lesbians? They must be the chosen ones then."
Ifeelfine, how far you have strayed from the whole counsel of God that you would think like a heathen in regards to what God has set forth as HIS plan for mankind when it comes to marriage. First you try to make a suggestion that David and Jonathan were gay, and you try to twist the Scriptures to make your point, and now you try to distort what wilderness is saying. Man, get right with God! There are obviously things in Scripture which are black and white; no shady tones of grey are allowed, and this is one of them. I know you are not too fond of the Apostle Paul and his teachings on the subject because it goes totally against your views on the subject, but remember this is the man that was appeared to by Christ Himself on the road to Damascus and gave his life for the Gospel's sake. Please ifeelfine, stop trying to reason with today's culture and just give heed to what the Holy Spirit of God says in His Word (both Old and New Testament). It grieves me when you proclaim to be born again. You quote Scriptures that show the Grace of God, but I never see you balance them with the other Scriptures that warn Christians to turn their backs on sin. I think the real issue at hand is whether you believe the Word of God to be the Inherrent Inspired Word of God holy, flawless and without error, and whether you adhere to what God's expressed Will for mankind is, and it's ultimate authority upon the believer in Christ.
“Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man” (1 Corinthians 11:8, 9).
A relationship of man to man is each rejecting the woman that God has created for them.
A relationship of woman to woman is each rejecting the man whom God created them for. Homosexual relationships are in direct rebellion against God our creator. Take heed:
“For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry” (1Sa 15:23).
Wilderness: What does that say about lesbians? They must be the chosen ones then.
Pr 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.
If you are a man finding a man, then you are not finding a good thing. Why perish? “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt 3:2).
Jesusis1: It almost seems as though you revel in that belief that God might smite the West Coast. Proud are we?
Jesus4me, Quecat and others who stand up for what the Gospel says may God richly bless you all. It is refreshing to see others standup to the unbelievers and the apostate so called christian that post here. I encourge you all to keep going in Jesus name. Jesus said there would be those who have forsaken the ways of God and fallen for the lies of the world. By reading some of the post here I see He was right. As Christians we need to stand up for what is right in the eyes of Almightly God and sin---no matterif its homosexaulity,adultry,living togeather,gossip,drunkeness,lieing or teaching others thru their words the ways contary of God need to be preach against and resisted by those who follow this Jesus of the Bible. Again thank you and God Bless ya's In Christ Tom
Curious - if Dongard doesn't believe in God anyway - why would he refer to an earthquake as being mass murder? You sound conflicted.
dongard,
"you don't like the result of a policy decision, so now you are advocating mass murder and destruction. how christian of you."
Since God is the Author of Life, God cannot murder. Therefore, if God chooses to take away or allows the taking away of life through natural disaster, He is not committing murder.
Jesusis1
you don't like the result of a policy decision, so now you are advocating mass murder and destruction. how christian of you.
"Anyone see a major earthquake hitting the west coast?"
Let me guess.... almighty god is punishing the California Supreme Court for legalizing same-sex marriage. LOL
1 Cornthians 6:9-20
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Glorify God in Body and Spirit
12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”[b] 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are God’s.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
1 Corinthians 6:16 Genesis 2:24
1 Corinthians 6:20 NU-Text ends the verse at bod
Quecat, I'm very familiar with Calvary Chapel Ft.Lauderdale. Both I and my wife used to sit under Bob Coy's teachings when we lived in Florida. A few years back, the Lord took us out of Florida, and now we sit under the teaching of another Calvary Chapel Pastor in the Dallas Ft. Worth Metroplex area. We get to listen to Calvary Satellite Radio here, so it's really cool to be able to hear Pastor Chuck Smith in the mornings teaching his verse by verse teacings on the radio on my way to work in the mornings, and then i get to hear Greg Laurie with "A New Beginning", and then then comes David Rosales which I really enjoy as well......there is so much meat in the Word that needs to be taught in today's churches, but everyone just wants the fluffy "feel-good" motivational TBN style Christianity, or the Liberal post modernism that has hyjacked most of America's churches. Good talking to you. Hey, I have a question: Has anyone heard anymore from Prophet? I haven't been on the site for a while and was just wondering. Anyways, good night.
jesus4me
Amen brother! - and might I add another Calvary teacher to the list: Bob Coy. I sure miss him being on the radio, but I still catch his podcasts.
Maranatha!
jesus4me,
You seem to have mistaken me for a believer. The reason why I think you're a raving lunatic is because I think the bible is nothing more than a storybook, and god is an illusion created by man to solve the unanswered questions in life.
That's funny, weren't the early Christians also criticized for their "pure and unadulterated teachings of the Word of God"? Weren't some of them imprisoned for teaching "The Way of Salvation in Jesus Christ". Weren't some of them mocked at, scoffed, beaten, spit on, and acused of being madmen who were crazy (raving lunatics)? Of course they were, and the Bible warrants that all those who trully believ in Christ will suffer persecution. Having said that, persecution doesn't necessarily have to come in the form of stoning, but in the form of those who claim to know Christ, but are mistaken; not knowing the Word of God have erred from the Truth.
It's too bad that some of you can't listen to yourselves.... maybe then you'd realize how much you sound like raving lunatics.
Regardles of this totally immoral and lascivious abuse in ruling by the San Francisco Supreme Court, the Church must continue to stay in Sound Doctrine, For the time IS here, that men are not enduring Sound Doctrine, but are turning their ears to deceiving spirits, doctrines of demons, and deceptive teachings meant to tickle the ears of men. You see, it is virtually unheard of nowadays in society to agree that moral absolutes exist (unless you are a bor again Christian as the Bible defines one; not how our culture may or may not define one). You may ask why? Well, one of the reasons i believe is that we all know that a majority of the church in North America and around the world was sleeping when the slippery slope of the '60's sexual revolution coupled by illicit drug use, found it's way into America, and in it's trail brought satanism, other occultic practices, and the new age (a form of hinduism for western thought). Thank God for His Son Jesus Christ, and His Holy Spirit moving in the 60's and 70's in movements like the Jesus Movement, that preached Jesus as the only Way, the Only Truth, and the Only Life in this wicked and perverse generation. This movement gave birth to wat we know today as Calvary Chapel's. Other Christian movement's were well and actively preaching during this time, but some mainstream denominations didn't even want to associate with hippie ouths. Thank God for men like Billy Graham, Chuck Smith, Greg Laurie, Skip Heitzig, David Rosales, Raul Reese, and other's who have dedicated their lives to teaching the Word and proclaiming the Only Good News that is meant to set the sinner free from his/her captivity of sin - that is Jesus Christ came to save us sinners and set us free from the bondae of sin to serve Him! Amen.
Obviously, we do not set the natural order of things. God does. It is up to us to accept or reject His Absolute Truth. Obviously here the secular court system of San Franfrico (San francisco) has turned blind sided on what God has ordained. Having said that, God will not turn a blind eye towards this abherration unless of course there is a turning away (repentance).
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
Eph 5:3-7 "But FORNICATION, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
1Cr 5:9-13 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–
not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
Accept the repentant sinner; Absolutely yes!!!!!!! Accept the unrepentant as a brother? God forbid! This goes against God's Word.
You constantly hear proponents of one "progressive" measure or another ridiculing the concept of the slippery-slope. Here's a fantastic example of this supposedly non-existent phenomenon:
"Recent experience in The Netherlands illustrates where deceptive language about euthanasia can lead. When The Netherlands first legalized euthanasia, it was only allowed in rare cases of "intolerable suffering." "The guidelines were designed specifically to keep assisted suicide occurrences few and far between by establishing demanding conditions that had to be met, at the risk of criminal prosecution." Yet doctors soon began interpreting these guidelines broadly, and the government and the courts did almost nothing to prevent it. Now the Netherlands, under its euthanasia law, allows the killing of infants with non-life threatening birth defects. Additionally, Dutch doctors are euthanizing patients without their permission. Repeated studies have demonstrated that 900-1000 patients experience "termination without request or consent" every year. The Dutch government usually turns a blind eye to this illegal practice as well.
If The Netherlands is any indication, the citizens of the United States ought to guard aggressively against the rhetorical gyrations of euthanasia's proponents. No matter how flowery their language is, they promote the killing of human beings. They propose a "right to die" but, in actuality, they want the right to kill."
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080518/32419_Encouraging_Death.htm
dbrydges,
“Each act you listed has a victim, a real person who endures a measurable negative consequence of the action. Homosexuality is not the same.”
Says who? Have you heard some of the testimonials of those who have come out of the gay sub-culture? Have you not seen videos of the Castro Street Fair in San Francisco? And the negative consequence does not always have to be immediately measurable. What about the societal boundaries allowing older men to marry 12 or 13 year old girls. Is she not a victim since in their society it is deemed legal and acceptable? And even if there is a victim, who cares if there are no moral absolutes. After all, survival of the fittest, right? I do not have to have the rightful authority over another person; the only thing that is important is whether I have the power to do it. And no one can say that I am wrong in exercising that power; they may disagree, but cannot say that I’m wrong. And what about child pornography? And I'm not talking about the victims... let's assume NO NEW victims... with the millions of child pornography already out there, is it morally licit to possess any of these for those with sexual attraction to prepubescent children? Or do you want to set that boundary elsewhere?
“Humanity by our very nature violate "natural law" all of the time. We alter our environment to suit our needs, we use science to be able to things we can not naturally do, it is not immoral, it is a reality of the human condition.”
You are confusing ‘natural law’ with ‘laws of nature.’
“It's very much like the Taleban but without the power to do anything about it.”
Christianity is like the Taliban?
"Similarly, just as a person who may have a predisposition to alcoholism, stealing, sexual attraction to prepubescent girls, or whatever long before they ever committed the act is different and separate from the act itself."
Each act you listed has a victim, a real person who endures a measurable negative consequence of the action. Homosexuality is not the same. You do realize that heterosexual couples can also engage in "unnatural" sex. Should we legislate against that? Should we put a camera in peoples homes to ensure this does not happen? Homosexual couples also might not engage in any sex, just as some seniors who marry do not engage in sex. I actually know homosexuals who have not engaged in certain sexual activities. They are still homosexuals, some of them have partners, and at least one of those couples is married. Now given that they are not violating "natural law" as you call it, why should they not be married. Because you don't like it? Of course I have no problem with consenting adults engaging in sex, society has no business in the bedrooms of the nation.
"the difference is whether we legislate morality that can be determined through natural law."
Humanity by our very nature violate "natural law" all of the time. We alter our environment to suit our needs, we use science to be able to things we can not naturally do, it is not immoral, it is a reality of the human condition.
"You know good and well that is not what john14-6 is saying."
Actually I think that's exactly what he is saying. He says, "Society has a right to set boundaries on any behavior" Of course he then complains when he does not agree with the boundaries that society sets, see his monologue against the sexual revolution as an example, and I'm sure would like nothing more than to bend society towards his notion of morality, as I'm sure so would you. Society is not immutable and it may be that one day a majority of American society will support the marriage of same-sex couples, but both you and him would still oppose same-sex marriages and would still probably support legislated bans. We in Canada are already at that point where a majority of Canadians do not oppose same-sex marriages, and those with a religious agenda are still trying to enforce their notions of morality on the rest of us. It's very much like the Taleban but without the power to do anything about it.
jesusismyhomie,
You know good and well that is not what john14-6 is saying.
dbrydges,
“the sex act is separate from sexuality, it has to do with sexual attraction. I was a heterosexual long before I was sexually active.”
I agree, which is why it is not necessarily a sin to have same-sex attraction, but it is altogether different to act out on that disposition. So yes, they are separate. Similarly, just as a person who may have a predisposition to alcoholism, stealing, sexual attraction to prepubescent girls, or whatever long before they ever committed the act is different and separate from the act itself.
“Do you wish to prevent other sovereign people from exercising their free will and self determination to engage in "sin" that you find offensive. Do you try to prevent Muslims from worshiping Allah? Do you think we should legislate against worshiping what you consider false idols? Should we pass constitutional amendments to ban all faiths but Christianity or strip them of their tax free status as religious institutions?”
No, but the difference is whether we legislate morality that can be determined through natural law. I am not for legislating articles of faith that can only be determined through divine revelation, but things that can be determined through natural law certainly should be. An easy example would be murder. Certainly, this is a moral precept of Christianity and many other religions, but the legislation against unjustly taking another person’s life is still reasonable because murder is understood to be wrong through natural law; i.e., it did not require divine revelation to reveal this truth. However, it would be wrong to legislate that Muslims should not worship Allah but rather the Triune God of Christianity. This is not revealed in natural law, but through divine revelation.
irenaeus, the sex act is separate from sexuality, it has to do with sexual attraction. I was a heterosexual long before I was sexually active. If you find homosexual sex unappealing, then don't have any. Do you wish to prevent other sovereign people from exercising their free will and self determination to engage in "sin" that you find offensive. Do you try to prevent Muslims from worshiping Allah? Do you think we should legislate against worshiping what you consider false idols? Should we pass constitutional amendments to ban all faiths but Christianity or strip them of their tax free status as religious institutions? And if the answer is no, then why do you consider homosexuality a worse sin than worshiping a false idol, or denying the holy spirit?
This is not a flame, I just don't understand the rational, it seems somewhat hypocritical to rail so firmly against government recognition of one "sin" while simply accepting that the government protects many others. I see it as the is the easiest battle in the war for an American theocracy.
dbrydges,
“Most definitely not orthodox, orthodox Christianity has a pretty checkered past.”
Not sure what you mean by checkered past or what this has to do with faithfully handing on to the successive generation of Christians what Jesus and apostles taught.
“I have no moral issues with any of these with the exception of incest, but that's probably not something I can properly rationalize, it's probably just societally indoctrinated.”
Fair, at least you are being logically consistent.
“understand that I do not think that homosexuality is a choice.”
Neither is it necessarily a choice for alcoholism, kleptomania, sexual attraction to prepubescent girls, etc. So choice is irrelevant; it’s the acting out on certain dispositions (or predispositions) that is in question.
John, understand that I do not think that homosexuality is a choice. I certainly don't feel I had a choice to be a heterosexual, I just am. So when you call homosexuality aberrant and claim it is a destructive force in society (without a shred of evidence I might add), you are condemning people for who they are. I consider that hateful. When did you decide to become a heterosexual? Myself, I never decided to be sexually attracted to women, I was simply born that way.
dbrydges--
How sad it is that you compare anything you disagree with to "hate". This is a typical tactic of the left, in particular. You can call it hateful, or anything else you want to, but I have no hate in my heart for anyone. You don't know my heart, but the Lord does. But it's typical of those who support some left wing agenda to declare "hateful" anyone or anything that stands in their way. If there is any hatred, it typically comes in the bitter, venomous, vitriol that comes from the homosexual lobby. You never hear so much venom and hate as comes from that quarter. But nice try.
As I said to jesusismyhomie, you confuse "liberty" with "libertine". Homosexuality is a destructive influence in any society and it is the reason that virtually no human civilization has ever supported or tolerated open homosexuality, and certainly nothing like homosexual "marriage" or "unions". Not even the Greeks allowed such open behavior. There's a reason for that. Maybe you should think on it and ponder why.
The Bible declares homosexuality a sin, and our Judeo-Christian society has always upheld the value that homosexuality was an aberrant behavior. Certainly it is not worthy of recognition on an equal level to heterosexual marriage. The reason for this is obvious, but I would gather that it probably escapes you.
The people of California will have the last word on this one, and they will vote for the amendment to the state constitution that will put this issue to rest. The gays may have found four black robed tyrants who would overturn the will of over six million voters, but the voters will have the final say. The gays won this round, through Stalinist tactics that are utterly against democracy, but they will not win the fight. The people will win. The constitution of the state will be amended and gay marriage will be declared invalid.
To suggest that two homosexuals, in violation of the natural order, and God's expressed will, are somehow "equal" or deserving of equal recognition under the title "marriage" - as if they are as valid a "family" as a heterosexual couple who marry to have and raise children - is an outrage to civil society, the natural order, basic decency, and plain common sense.
Gay marriage will be defeated. Homosexuality is an abomination, and pro-homosexual groups and individuals can rail against it all day long, but the simple fact remains that the natural instinct of the majority of the people on the planet is revulsion and disgust when it comes to homosexual behavior. There's a reason for this. It's because of what Paul described, in Romans, as the natural law written on the human heart. People instinctively know right from wrong. Homosexuality is wrong, on both a physical anatomical level, and on a moral and societal level. It is an abomination, as it says in Leviticus, and it is described as one of the grave sins, in Romans and in 1 Corinthians, for which no one who practices such behavior will ever inherit the kingdom of God. I am speaking the truth, in love, but it is the truth.
Now, to the Nazis who are flagging everything on this thread and the others - I have written the plain truth. So, go ahead and flag this. I will be checking this thread and the others and *will immediately repost this* each and every time you flag it. Your totalitarian attempt to silence the speech of the good Christians on these threads is disgusting. It will not stand.
"That’s why I wondered whether you would consider wife swapping, incestuous relationships, polygamist relationships, orgies, etc (provided they were done under the advocacy of loving one another) as morally licit. After all, these are consensual examples."
I have no moral issues with any of these with the exception of incest, but that's probably not something I can properly rationalize, it's probably just societally indoctrinated. The danger of producing damaged offspring is certainly a consideration that adds some weight. So yeah pretty much if all parties are consenting adults I have no issues with these (incest is still taboo in my mind though) And I assume you think all of them immoral because you've been told it is. I prefer to think rather than follow blindly. To each his/her own - that's what freedom is about.
Note: flagged my own to fix a typo.
"Hardly an orthodox Christian view."
Most definitely not orthodox, orthodox Christianity has a pretty checkered past. I don't put much stock in it.
"It’s rather easy to live more Christ-like if your positions are so liberal that all the moral demands are watered down."
I knew someone would claim something like this. Meh, your opinion is about as valuable to me as a warm bucket of hamster vomit. The simple fact of the matter is my father doesn't think that the Bible is literal, it is allegorical, it is midrash, and in some cases just plain fiction. He's actually read much of it in it's original language so I'll take his word for it. It's also very colored and biased by the authors, the many translators, and the social norms of the times in which it was written. I really don't know how anyone can get anything out of it, especially just reading it without knowing or at least studying the societal context in which it was written.
I don't consider the Bible an authoritative source on anything accept what the Bible says, like this post is an authoritative source on what this post says, my father would disagree with me in this respect.
Graves01,
"I work for one of the largest Chemical companies in the world as a chemical engineer."
Do you have an employee number that begins with a 'u'? Just curious, as I also work for one of the largest Chemical companies in the world and was curious if it may be the same one.
dbrydges,,
“You have decided to take a gamble that your god is real, and I decided that it is intellectually dishonest to claim I know something that is clearly unknowable.”
Why, if there is a god, would he be clearly unknowable? If there is a god, could he not make himself known?
“He supports the rights of Gays to marry and recognizes (or believes if you prefer) that the Bible is not the infallible word of God. Like I said before, you'd probably claim he's not a true Christian, but he lives a more Christ like life than most people I know.”
It’s rather easy to live more Christ-like if your positions are so liberal that all the moral demands are watered down. I know some who are rather promiscuous who claim to be Christians, but provided they love others, give to the poor, and are liberal enough that their sexual promiscuity is not considered sinful, well, I guess they would say they are living Christ-like lives.
“My father also believes… that Jesus was a man and was not divine until after the resurrection.”
Hardly an orthodox Christian view.
dbrydges,
“No one can provide a rational for the immorality of homosexuality that does not rely on religious argument.”
There is no morality outside of religion because everything is then deemed relative. What’s truth to you may not be truth for me, and vice versa.
“You're talking about where there is only one consenting adult, the other is a victim. Get a life, your fear mongering hyperbole is going nowhere. We're talking about where both parties to the act are consenting adults, and no one else is involved.”
That’s why I wondered whether you would consider wife swapping, incestuous relationships, polygamist relationships, orgies, etc (provided they were done under the advocacy of loving one another) as morally licit. After all, these are consensual examples.
postman: I know you're gone now, but I can't talk to god again, I've never talked to him in the first place. At one time I lied about it and claimed that I had because it would not have been socially acceptable not to have "spoken" with god, it was all a lie because of social pressures. But if he calls me up tonight I'll let you know.
same for me guys. it has been inspirational. a message to all. dbridges take a moment and talk to god again, but instead for waiting on him to answer in you time let him answer in his. jesusismyhomie, i pray god opens not only your eyes but also your heart to his truth and not the worlds. all others, may god bless and show mercy in all our lives. good night. i got church and god bless
postman: don't bother, I've heard it all before. I simply do not know if there is a God or not that's why I call myself agnostic (A weak atheist as opposed to a strong atheist who is sure) I'm most definitely not sure of any particular god, Christ or Yahweh or Krishna or Shiva or Vishnu or.... and I'm comfortable that I never will be. I'm also sure that a truly just god wouldn't hold it against me, and if he's not that "just" then why call him god.
I'm happy you think God gave you a wonderful experience. You've certainly convinced yourself that it was a particular God, but you're interpretation of your own experiences are nothing to me, how could it be. I've met people who have had experiences that they attribute to another God or even Gods in a few cases, they are equally as convinced, and thought I should be too. Sorry, it's not going to happen.
dbrydges
You are right, that goes against the very grain of all I believe, I have enjoyed debating with you tonight, but I gotta get some sleep. Church tomorrow. Im sure we will get to butt heads again soon. Take care and God bless.
dbrydges i have to tell you that i was somewhat scared the first time i went to a church that believed in true freedom of worship. but it was nothing in the line of hatred. there are many churches in this WORLD that are only in it for the money, among other reasons other than trying to spread the love of Jesus Christ. But that dosn't mean that God's church dosn't love the people in this world (including jesusismyhomie). you say you were raised in a christian community. you were raised to know the truth. whether or not you believe is definately your decision. but you still have a measure of faith in god. you can deny it all you want, but it is still there. i don't know what experiances you have had as a youth, but i tell you this, god is still there waiting for you. he hasn't turned his back on you. he allows us to go through different events in our lives for a reason. none of these is to turn you from him but to come to rely fully upon him. i have had many reasons to turn my back on god. but i have been in his miricals also. i know that god is real. not because of what i have been taught for learned in church, but because god gave me an experiance that was undeniably hime working in my life.
We have long religious discussions. My father also believes that Christ may have been married to Mary Magdelan and had children, and that Jesus was a man and was not divine until after the resurrection. He doesn't claim to know beyond a doubt however, that's just where his studies have pointed him.
Bible is not the infallible word of God.
Then what did he preach?
I don't consider my father to be a fool, though we disagree on religion, faith and god. But my father also believes that there are several paths to heaven, (I'm sure you'd say he's not a true Christian) and he respects other faiths and belief systems. He has studied other religions, he can read ancient Hebrew, and Latin and has studied the Dead Sea Scrolls. He's well educated, and a very-very liberal Christian, and he believes that Christ was too.
He supports the rights of Gays to marry and recognizes (or believes if you prefer) that the Bible is not the infallible word of God. Like I said before, you'd probably claim he's not a true Christian, but he lives a more Christ like life than most people I know.
delivery_from_postman:
You are truly naive and delusional.
dbrydges
lol They scared me a few times too.
dbrydges
I will not deny the hypocrites in the church. However, they will be judged accordingly.
I have been to more that one Pentacostal church, I found the experience scary and the people to be unthinking and full of hatred for outsiders, though it wasn't overt hatred, it was far more covert, and it was all dressed up and called concern or love but it was definitely not love. Sorry that was my impression.
dbrydges
Do you consider your father to be a fool?
u are probably right. 40 years ago less than 33% of the world claimed to be christians. seems to me the rest of the world may be wising up after all. i do hope that God's mercy and patiance lasts just a little longer. don't get me wrong, I am ready for Christ's return, but I'd hate to see 2/3's of this world's population to face final judgement without knowing Christ. I do pray that god's mercy be upon us all and that his truth will come to light in the eyes of those here tonight.
Laugh now, pay later.
dbrydges: You are a voice of reason coming out of the wilderness.
postman: Pray all you want, I'm not offended by it. I was raised in a very Christian community, 1500 people and 6 churches, my father was a preacher (now retired). I've seen many of the faces of Christianity, regular church attendance, taken communion, Sunday school, religous confirmation, Christian school, confirmation, served as an alter boy. But to be honest I was lying the whole time, it just took me a long time to be honest with myself about it.
I realized a long time ago that many Christians are in fact not Christians at all, they are hypocrites.. and in my experience many Christians is actually most Christians, including many pastors, priests and preachers.(Though I do not put my father in this group) Blind adherence to rules because they are written in the Bible or because they are dictated by a preacher is a very dangerous thing and from what I can see of opposition to homosexuality it is simply more of the same.
Some of us like to go on crazy christian forums to watch obsessive people make fools out of themselves.
dbrydges
There was a time when I questioned His very existence, I will have to disagree with you on proof, as I can not physically show you, but He will reveal Himself in spirit to those who seek Him. He has shown Himself manifest in me through the Holy Ghost, which is unexplainable, but awe inspiring. If you have never been to a Pentecostal church, I would beg you to go, if for nothing else but to humor yourself. I do not know why we are here at the same time, but you are not on a Christian message board by meer chance.Yes, there are millions of unanswered questions, but all the rationalization in the universe will never answer them all.
I do not "hate" homosexuals. I pray for them everyday, but as a Christian, if I were to openly condone what I believe the Bible to call an abominable sin, then that would mean that I hate them,instead of showing love for them. I do believe I am a citizen of Heaven before an American citizen.My heart aches for them, I do not want to see anyone condemned to eternal damnation, to include other religeons.
postman: UNDER GOD was added in 1954 as a knee jerk anti-communist reaction. Though I don`t know why you quoted it. Just because 95% believe in something doesn`t mean anything. 66% of the planet are not Christians, does that mean anything to you. Seems to me that maybe the 33% who call themselves Christians should expand their horizons and find out what the other 66% are thinking, maybe they`d learn something.
i have to agree with kbozz. i respect you for taking a stand on what you believe. I also pray that one day God will take personal interest in you and give the an experiance in him that is undeniable.
I wonder though kboswell why it is you can`t extend the same respect to all people including homosexuals, they are people after all that simply do not believe as you do. I don`t expect to change your mind, I`d just like you to think about it rationally instead of emotionally. Does freedom not permit those who disagree with you to disagree and to live with their own beliefs.
and i leave you with this quote" i pledge alegance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands. one nation, UNDER GOD, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." just because man makes a statement unto himself dosn't mean it is law to others. unterstand that god's word was written by man, but inspired of god. so man was just the means in which the word was delieverd. and as for as not believing, 95% of the world believes in something while the other 5% thinks we are fools. seems to me that 5% really should take another look at themselves and try to figure out why we exist in the first place. and it isn't because of some random occurance in a mud hole millions of years ago.
dbrydges
I have no option but to respect your choice. I can see that your mind will not be changed, at least not by me. I hope that it does not offend you if I do pray for you. I do personally believe in God and His power to save.
kbos: I am agnostic, I can neither prove nor disprove the existence of any god, and neither can you. You have decided to take a gamble that your god is real, and I decided that it is intellectually dishonest to claim I know something that is clearly unknowable. I live in the real world, and while the Bible contains all sorts of wisdom so do other scriptures (and yes I have actually read the Bible and some others) I simply view it as arrogance when one particular faith claims a monopoly on truth, sadly most religions do, thus I stand in opposition to religion particularly of the organized variety. A quick study of history will tell you why.
I agree that you definitely have more faith than I do. I truly do not have enough faith to be an atheist. BTW, Have you been watching Oprah lately?
sure postman, all faiths make similar claims. Just because it is written does not make it so. I will leave you with a quote from Stephen Roberts
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
Jesus told the Jews, if you do not believe my word, then believe the miracles I have shown you.
dbrydges
Do you deny the existance of Jesus? Not a flame, but what is your stand on this? If you do not deny his existance, do you dismiss his miracles as lies? Please advise, are you an atheist or an agnostic?
If you read John 1:1 you will see that in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god. no false witness here
Kboswell, you`re forgiven, please read what is being said instead of taking single quotes out of context to build straw-man arguments.
postman: I can`t show you lots of bodies, but that does not mean they rose from the dead.
"God's word, it is the ONLY word to have servived since BEFORE recorded history.
BS - The bible (or the word as you call it) was written well after recorded history or we would not know that Hinduism predates both Christianity and Judaism. I thought is was a sin to bear false witness, perhaps you should repent and ask for forgiveness.
science dosn't have to prove the dismissal of other gods. ever heard of GREEK MYTHOLOGY. not to mention anyone who has been elevated to the level of godhood can be found in a tomb somewhere. tell me since science does prove that Jesus Christ existed on earth, can you show me his dead body???
Forgive my stupidity, I thought you were discussing "free will".
kboswell, are you stupid or something. You're talking about where there is only one consenting adult, the other is a victim. Get a life, your fear mongering hyperbole is going nowhere. We're talking about where both parties to the act are consenting adults, and no one else is involved.
Free will? The right to control your own body? Self determination? These are all principles of freedom in our society
So pedophiles,murderers,rapists,etc. should just have their way?
very interesting words. you know, nearly every "faith" in this world has a dark side. many things have been done in the name of buddist china (killing people because they choose to believe something different), muslim arab countries (who see anyone who dosn't believe what they believe is worse than an infidel and should be killed), etc. and it dosn't make it right, but people in all walks of faith have used their faith to persicute others. theirs as well as those who dont know Christ will all discover their folly in the course of time. and in defence of God's word, it is the ONLY word to have servived since BEFORE recorded history. Christianity has had its dark history, but the light of the world (Jesus Christ) will open ALL eyes and EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tounge shall confess. this isn't a question of morals. God is rightious in his knowlage and is just in his word. God gave us the "WRITTEN" word to give us a set of guidelines to set our "morals" by, not to twist and conform to our beliefe in what is right or wrong. Sin is sin. no excuses even for christians. ALL will answer before God on the day of judgement.
postman: no one can disprove the existence of the Christian god using science, but then no one can disprove the existence of Krisha, Odin, Thor, Zeus, Cthulu, Allah, the Flying spaghetti monster, or the pink unicorn either. The inability to disprove existence by no means proves existence, that is wishful thinking.
The fundie christians constantly forget that the USA is not a theocracy, and was never intended to be a theocracy.
You may call it anything you like, hatred of the sin but not the sinner or whatever, it's hatred, and all one has to do is look at the moral outrage and the claims of conspiracy. No body bothered to respond to my comments:
Free will? The right to control your own body? Self determination? These are all principles of freedom in our society, they may not be Christian principles, but our society encompasses more than just Christians. The diversity of western society is one of it's greatest strengths, I'm sure that many Christians feel that Hindus, Scientologists, et al. are worships false idols, but do we really want to legislate against other faiths because "they are wrong", homosexuality is really no different. The "sin" does not have the same name, and some may feel that homosexuality is a worse sin, but isn't God supposed to be the judge of that.
Instead calling the US a Judeo/Christian society, well it's not, it's a pluralistic society comprised of many people of many faiths. No particular religious belief should take precedence, and religious freedom is never a justification for limiting the rights of others. As for the complaining that this is override democracy, "activist" judges were overriding democracy when they threw out anti-miscegenation laws too, that doesn't make it wrong.
No one can provide a rational for the immorality of homosexuality that does not rely on religious argument, and the US is supposed to be a free society where freedom of consciousness is not a monopoly of any particular faith. Get over yourselves, you have no monopoly on ethics or morality. The countless crimes of Christians in the name of God throughout history has deprived you of any real moral high ground, you are deluding yourselves, and are repeating the crimes of the past. I'm sure there are some Christians who would love to execute a few homosexuals for for good measure too. It appears to be the religious fundamentalists that hold the bulk of the arrogance in this case.
Thankfully I live in Canada where marriage between same-sex and traditional couples is now a fact of life. And guess what our society is doing just fine, given crime stats, even better than the US.
these are copy and paist from other article on same subject
in answer to kbozz's question, gen 1:27,28 and gen 4:1. notice in this verse the use of the word "knew" and "WIFE".
dear j.m.doe, kboswell speaks the truth. a lot of people try to disprove the word by science, but end up supporting it in every attempt simply because that they CAN NOT disprove the word. as far as pastors go, we who believe in Christ have been commissioned to deliver the word to all parts of the earth. in essence we are all pastors of the word of God. We are seperated and persicuted by the world because we are a peculiar people in the sense that we pray and talk to God and wait and listen to his word. We also depend on Him for everything in our lives whether good or bad. understand that nothing evil comes from God and all things work out for good to those who love and serve the Lord. even though bad things happen in this world god is still in control and if you read the word in John, many of the letters written by Paul, and revelations you will see that this day is a day of purging before the rapture. people in the church are going to be tested and many will believe the lie the world has to offer them. think about the events of today. tornadoes in places unheard of, earthquakes in places you would never think of, cyclones wiping out entire countries. the world was warned. seasons running together is not a product of global warming. it is a fulfillment of God's word. look it up it is all in the Bible. If you are not familiar with the word of God find someone who is and believes in the unalterated word and get them to help you find what you need to see. I pray that your eyes will recognize the truth of Jesus Christ and opened to the sins of the world.
read genesis 19:4-8. The term's know and known in the following scriptures "bring them out unto us, that we may know them" (verse 5) and also "i have two daughters which have not known man" (verse 8) refer to the act of having intercourse with another. now can you tell me why these two cities were distroyed?
"I thought this was a country where the majority of people decided the outcome? Since when does the decision of Justices override the peoples' will? The people meaning not just fundamental Christians, but the MAJORITY of Californians??? This is arrogance."
Citizens are not permitted to vote on the human rights of their fellow citizens. It's called "tyranny of the minority".
dbrydges,
"it's sad that you have so much hate for people who want nothing more than to love one another."
Not hate towards people; hate towards evil behavior. And if loving one another was the only criterion for determining whether a particular act was morally licit, then I suppose that consentual wife swapping, incestuous relationships, polygamist relationships, etc (provided they are being done under the advocacy of loving one another) should be deemed morally licit.
dbrydges--
How sad it is that you compare anything you disagree with to "hate". This is a typical tactic of the left, in particular. You can call it hateful, or anything else you want to, but I have no hate in my heart for anyone. You don't know my heart, but the Lord does. But it's typical of those who support some left wing agenda to declare "hateful" anyone or anything that stands in their way. If there is any hatred, it typically comes in the bitter, venomous, vitriol that comes from the homosexual lobby. You never hear so much venom and hate as comes from that quarter. But nice try.
As I said to jesusismyhomie, you confuse "liberty" with "libertine". Homosexuality is a destructive influence in any society and it is the reason that virtually no human civilization has ever supported or tolerated open homosexuality, and certainly nothing like homosexual "marriage" or "unions". Not even the Greeks allowed such open behavior. There's a reason for that. Maybe you should think on it and ponder why.
The Bible declares homosexuality a sin, and our Judeo-Christian society has always upheld the value that homosexuality was an aberrant behavior. Certainly it is not worthy of recognition on an equal level to heterosexual marriage. The reason for this is obvious, but I would gather that it probably escapes you.
And here it is again...
The people of California will have the last word on this one, and they will vote for the amendment to the state constitution that will put this issue to rest. The gays may have found four black robed tyrants who would overturn the will of over six million voters, but the voters will have the final say. The gays won this round, through Stalinist tactics that are utterly against democracy, but they will not win the fight. The people will win. The constitution of the state will be amended and gay marriage will be declared invalid.
To suggest that two homosexuals, in violation of the natural order, and God's expressed will, are somehow "equal" or deserving of equal recognition under the title "marriage" - as if they are as valid a "family" as a heterosexual couple who marry to have and raise children - is an outrage to civil society, the natural order, basic decency, and plain common sense.
Gay marriage will be defeated. Homosexuality is an abomination, and pro-homosexual groups and individuals can rail against it all day long, but the simple fact remains that the natural instinct of the majority of the people on the planet is revulsion and disgust when it comes to homosexual behavior. There's a reason for this. It's because of what Paul described, in Romans, as the natural law written on the human heart. People instinctively know right from wrong. Homosexuality is wrong, on both a physical anatomical level, and on a moral and societal level. It is an abomination, as it says in Leviticus, and it is described as one of the grave sins, in Romans and in 1 Corinthians, for which no one who practices such behavior will ever inherit the kingdom of God. I am speaking the truth, in love, but it is the truth.
Now, to the Nazis who are flagging everything on this thread and the others - I have written the plain truth. So, go ahead and flag this. I will be checking this thread and the others and *will immediately repost this* each and every time you flag it. Your totalitarian attempt to silence the speech of the good Christians on these threads is disgusting. It will not stand.
Keep flagging it, and I'll keep reposting it. Here it is again...
The people of California will have the last word on this one, and they will vote for the amendment to the state constitution that will put this issue to rest. The gays may have found four black robed tyrants who would overturn the will of over six million voters, but the voters will have the final say. The gays won this round, through Stalinist tactics that are utterly against democracy, but they will not win the fight. The people will win. The constitution of the state will be amended and gay marriage will be declared invalid.
To suggest that two homosexuals, in violation of the natural order, and God's expressed will, are somehow "equal" or deserving of equal recognition under the title "marriage" - as if they are as valid a "family" as a heterosexual couple who marry to have and raise children - is an outrage to civil society, the natural order, basic decency, and plain common sense.
Gay marriage will be defeated. Homosexuality is an abomination, and pro-homosexual groups and individuals can rail against it all day long, but the simple fact remains that the natural instinct of the majority of the people on the planet is revulsion and disgust when it comes to homosexual behavior. There's a reason for this. It's because of what Paul described, in Romans, as the natural law written on the human heart. People instinctively know right from wrong. Homosexuality is wrong, on both a physical anatomical level, and on a moral and societal level. It is an abomination, as it says in Leviticus, and it is described as one of the grave sins, in Romans and in 1 Corinthians, for which no one who practices such behavior will ever inherit the kingdom of God. I am speaking the truth, in love, but it is the truth.
Now, to the Nazis who are flagging everything on this thread and the others - I have written the plain truth. So, go ahead and flag this. I will be checking this thread and the others and *will immediately repost this* each and every time you flag it. Your totalitarian attempt to silence the speech of the good Christians on these threads is disgusting. It will not stand.
I thought this was a country where the majority of people decided the outcome? Since when does the decision of Justices override the peoples' will? The people meaning not just fundamental Christians, but the MAJORITY of Californians??? This is arrogance.
John, it's sad that you have so much hate for people who want nothing more than to love one another. And it's more than a little pathetic that Christians have nothing better to do than persecute people who are causing no actual harm to anyone, the hyperbole comming from the Christian fundamentalists is far more harmful to society and to a minority that has been persecuted for generations. If you think a little constitutional amendment is going to do what hundreds of years of stoning, burning, hanging, lynching, and murdering in the name of God has been unable to do, you're living in a dream world. but then that's already been established hasn't it. I'm so glad I live in Canada where freedom and liberty actually mean something.
The people of California will have the last word on this one, and they will vote for the amendment to the state constitution that will put this issue to rest. The gays may have found four black robed tyrants who would overturn the will of over six million voters, but the voters will have the final say. The gays won this round, through Stalinist tactics that are utterly against democracy, but they will not win the fight. The people will win. The constitution of the state will be amended and gay marriage will be declared invalid.
To suggest that two homosexuals, in violation of the natural order, and God's expressed will, are somehow "equal" or deserving of equal recognition under the title "marriage" - as if they are as valid a "family" as a heterosexual couple who marry to have and raise children - is an outrage to civil society, the natural order, basic decency, and plain common sense.
Gay marriage will be defeated. Homosexuality is an abomination, and pro-homosexual groups and individuals can rail against it all day long, but the simple fact remains that the natural instinct of the majority of the people on the planet is revulsion and disgust when it comes to homosexual behavior. There's a reason for this. It's because of what Paul described, in Romans, as the natural law written on the human heart. People instinctively know right from wrong. Homosexuality is wrong, on both a physical anatomical level, and on a moral and societal level. It is an abomination, as it says in Leviticus, and it is described as one of the grave sins, in Romans and in 1 Corinthians, for which no one who practices such behavior will ever inherit the kingdom of God. I am speaking the truth, in love, but it is the truth.
Now, to the Nazis who are flagging everything on this thread and the others - I have written the plain truth. So, go ahead and flag this. I will be checking this thread and the others and *will immediately repost this* each and every time you flag it. Your totalitarian attempt to silence the speech of the good Christians on these threads is disgusting. It will not stand.
I'm just speculating, maybe it was the flying spaghetti monster. But I don't claim to know, do you?
I too think flying_spaghetti raises an interesting point. Who's to say that the universe has a creator at all. Perhaps the universe itself is the creator and has always been, this certainly falls in line with some sects of Hinduism that believe that existence is cyclical. There are also other eastern philosophies that believe that there is a universal consciousness and that we are all parts of that consciousness separated from the whole to experience itself from a unique perspective, the ultimate exercise in introspection. The Church of Scientology also has similar beliefs that we are the creators ( 4 quadrillion years ago is what i think they claim), but that we have forgotten.
I wonder, if there is a creator of the universe then why couldn't that creator have an even more powerful creator, just because we don't not defined God that way does not mean it is not a possibility or even the reality. Or who's to say there is only 1 creator maybe there are several and they were created by a master creator. There are machines now created by computers that were created by computers that were created by engineers who may have been created by.... You get the point. Of course that brings in the question then, which creator would one pray to.
But I digress, creation is an interesting philosophical question, and there are as many answers as there are religions, possibly even more.And there is no way to verify that any of them are correct. I'm certainly not wiling to accept any one as the gospel truth (pun intended). Personally I think it would be rather narrow minded, as too are absolute rejectionists.
flying_spaghetti, you put forth a good question. Francis Shaefer in his book "Genesis in Space and Time" answers your question. "How could God have always been and be everywhere?"
The answer really is simple. The creator is not bound by the creation. Height, width, depth and time (as dimensions) are created things which only apply to and within the creation. A creator, not bound by the limits of his own creation, is therefore not required to have a height, width, depth, spcific area of presence, beginning or end.
It is man's limited understanding of what existes outside of the creation which insists on requiring Him to exist with our limitations.
"No one has a right to use another persons body to satisfy a disordered sexual appetite"
When both parties are consenting adults then actually you are wrong. Free will? The right to control your own body? Self determination? These are all principles of freedom in our society, they may not be Christian principles, but our society encompasses more than just Christians. The diversity of western society is one of it's greatest strengths, I'm sure that many Christians feel that Hindus, Scientologists, et al. are worships false idols, but do we really want to legislate against other faiths because "they are wrong", homosexuality is really no different. The "sin" does not have the same name, and some may feel that homosexuality is a worse sin, but isn't God supposed to be the judge of that.
byurazed- right on! you summed up the whole thing in a nutshell.!
What we are dealing with is lust on the rampage. It is not a matter of sexual orientation or rights. It is the manifestation of self-centered behavior to the extreme demanding a right that does not exist. No one has a right to use another persons body to satisfy a disordered sexual appetite, be it same sex, unmarried couples and even in the marriage bed between husband and wife. Our sexuality is a gift from almighty God that has been corrupted by lustful desires to feed an insatiable craving that leads many to perdition.
If all of this loosening of sexual morals was an attempt to bring about lasting happiness then why is the battlefield of the sexual revolution littered with so many wounded, dying and dead?
schloss8,
"This is a tremendously just decision, clearly guided by God..."
I don't think so... more like "clearly guided by the evil one."
ifeelfine72,
The Bible clearly endorses it because it doesn't say anything negative about it? You should take a page out of your own book since this will mean, according to your reasoning, that Jesus endorsed the Roman occupation of Palestine and their torture by crucifixion; after all, Jesus never said anything negative about either one.
Also, when you think of slave, you are thinking of slavery of the worst kind; where people are treated as things, and thus, have no personal rights, such as the abhorrent institution that existed in early American history. But that is not the slavery of the Bible, although certainly there were abuses. Dt. 23:16-17 “You shall not turn over a slave [who has escaped] to his master. He shall dwell with you in your midst… you must not ill-treat him.” A Hebrew could become a bondservant or slave by order of a court (Ex 22:2) or as payment of a debt (Lv 25:29), but he must be set free at the end of six years (Dt. 15:12) or at the Jubilee Year (Lv 25:40). The punishment of killing a slave was the same as killing a free person – death (Ex 21:20). A slave could inherit a master’s entire estate if there was no heir (Gen 15:3); could buy his or her own freedom (Lv 25:29); could own property (2 Sm 9:10). Even in the NT, a slave was more often an apprentice or indentured servant. Slaves in Roman times covered a broad social and legal category and could range from captured prisoners of war to often times quite educated and government bureaucrats. Felix, the procurator who was Paul’s judge in Acts 23:24, was a slave. As you can see, this institution of slavery is greatly different than the image you have.
This will be over turned.
Read the book "Power To The People" by Laura Ingraham. Public schools have been dumbing down the young.
The courts are over stepping their bounds. For all those who run around screaming separation of church and state, which is not true, this is true the 'separation of powers' Judicial (not the law makers), Executive & Legislative-(the law makers).
How wonderful... so many new posters since I visited at lunch!
Just wanted to interject a comment to bring us all back to the article that brought us all together, discussing this in His name. This is a tremendously just decision, clearly guided by God that supports the love and relationships of gay people in California. I'm sure God will us this to spread His love across the land.
Praise God!
Ireneus said: "As for slavery, the Bible never sanctioned or approved slavery. It tolerated certain instances and actually gave tremendous rights and privileges to slaves. Also, you have to look at the context, because often what is translated as slaves should more accurately be translated as bondservant or indentured servant."
Utter baloney. The Bible clearly endorses it because it doesn't say anything negative about it. If slavery, which is one of the worst scourges on humanity, doesn't get called a sin in the Bible then clearly the Bible is more allegorical and metaphorical than you are willing to admit. You mean to tell me that honoring your father and mother gets a commandment but slavery doesn't even warrant a negative verse? It's only when you look at the Bible more allegorically and metaphorically that you see that God clearly doesn't approve of slavery.
As for context, you should take a page out of your own book. If you look at it in historical context, you would realize that there are two types of homosexual sin the Bible refers to: One is the pagan ritualistic sex that was sometimes practiced and the other is the same type as heterosexual sin - lustful relationships.
Jar1961, I'd ask you where God came from, but then I know you'll just tell me that "God has always existed.... blah, blah, blah" so I won't bother, it's an empty boiler-plate answer anyways. Matter has always existed, it can be neither created nor destroyed so it has always been.
I really won't need to explain myself, the omniscient one already knows everything so there will be no questions to ask, of anyone.
"Wow, after all that, you would sign off in the name of, in your words, a liar and a fraud"
Just to clarify, that's a mythical liar and fraud, not a real one. I was being facetious!!!
TWO THINGS:
You can tell the mythic Jehovah, El Shaddai and Jesus Christ how fictional they are themselves when you face the judgement throne.
2. In the meantime, Id enjoy hearing from you where the mater came from..
3. To the rest of the Christian community here. Please dont get worried. This ruling will in fact be overturned both in November on the I&R in California and at the Supreme Court. I guarantee that wither a writ of certoreria or an overturning of the ruling will take place.
And here i thought we were robots before Adam and Steve ate from the tree of knowledge.
flying_spaghetti,
In Jesus name??? Wow, after all that, you would sign off in the name of, in your words, a liar and a fraud? Listen, it wouldn't matter if he sent a little message down because you would simply write it off as you have done the Bible. And you blame God for the suffering throughout history?... I suppose that God could have created robots so that no one ever disobeyed and all would behave in perfect obedience.
kboswell, I'll say it.
Your religious beliefs are based on the fictional writings of superstitious goat-herds and have no basis in reality. If there was any basis in reality then the God question would be moot and all of humanity would worship a single God, instead of arguing or and killing over who's imaginary best friend is bigger, better, stronger etc... You're like children in this regard.
If, and that's a monumental "IF", what is written in the bible is true, then Jesus was a liar and a fraud. If half of what is written about the Christian god is true, then we should bring him down to earth and subject HIM to an eternity of burning for the pain and suffering that he has brought to humanity. If he existed and were he is all-powerful and loving as we are told to blindly believe, then he could actually have put a stop to much of the suffering throughout history, often at the hands of his own followers. Why not send a tiny note and let them know they're wrong? I know if something terrible were done in my name, I'd be sure to let people know I had nothing to do with it, and I would actively denounce it. Yet not a word from God... hmmm I wonder why, because he is a myth? If god is the father he is a neglectful and abusive one, humanity would have been better off with two lesbian mothers. IF he actually exists then he is an insecure, childish, psychopathic , murderous, misogynist fiend more deserving of ridicule and derision than worship.
It disgusts me that you expect others to abide by morals invented in the minds of sick men and attributed to your god, just because you happen to believe the tripe that trickled out of those sick minds. It makes me sad that humanity has advanced so little in tens of thousands of years, but tiny victories like this give me just a little hope that maybe the Neanderthals that still believe in fairy-tales might be dragged(kicking and screaming if need be) into the future.
Peace, In Jesus Name.
lina,
“and you are proving mine. I don't think homosexuality is immoral. you do. which one of us has the proper interpretation? and now, you are saying the Bible doesn't sanction slavery. I would strongly beg to differ. Again, whose interpretation is correct? mine or yours?”
Again, whose interpretation is correct? Yours or the Greek Orthodox Church of whose faith you claim? You are clearly out of line with your own church. Homosexuality is immoral and the Bible clearly testifies to this. Listen, there are even a number of pro-gay ‘scholars’ who admit that the Bible condemns homosexuality (so this is not my biased interpretation), but simply claim that the Bible is in error. But at least they are being intellectually honest about what scripture actually says. Also, what did the Jews teach regarding homosexuality?... they unequivocally condemned it. But you are saying that, all of the sudden, Jesus, the apostles, Paul (all Jews) suddenly accepted homosexuality as morally licit. Where's you evidence for such a rupture with traditional Jewish teaching on this moral issue?
Regarding slavery, certainly slavery existed and Jesus and Paul address slavery in a matter of fact manner (which does not mean that they endorsed it). Look, Jesus never criticized Rome’s occupation of Palestine or their methods of torture, but that certainly doesn’t mean that he endorsed them. Paul counsels a slave who has become a believer to obey his master – that does not mean that Paul is endorsing slavery. In fact, in I Tim 1:10, Paul lists slave traders among the lawless and disobedient, the godless and sinful, etc… hardly an endorsement of the institution.
California and Mass. aka sodom and gamorah! Flee for the hills ye inhabitants of "these two states of mind." I know that we have fallen from the True Grace of God when we can't get a vote against Gay Marriage! Now the aliens will inhabit our lands, reap our blessings, and replace us! Don't cry to me when it happens....just like when I spank my kids, they know that I was trying to be kind and avoid such but when the moment comes, it is definitely too late!
wb,
I guess you're right, but it's hard to look at and read a lot of this trash that calls my Savior a liar,or a fairy tale,or any other nonsense. I live my life for Him and I am willing to die to uphold His Holy name. I cannot believe what I am reading on here from those claiming to be Christians.Is this the teachings of the Laodecedan church spoke of in Revelation? All of the signs are here, our redemption draweth nigh.
kboswell,
When I first started reading here, I was shocked by the antagonism against God, His Word, and His believers. But I've come to realize that while the agnostics, atheists, and self-proclaimed-but-not-believing-nor-obedient christians seem to be here to attack Christians, they do at least find themselves exposed to the Word of God and His love here.
I am confused here. Isn't this supposed to be a Christian board? When I scroll down the comments, I see atheists,agnostics, and people who claim to be Christians, yet boldly proclaim God to be a liar. I expect that from the atheists, but Christians?? Now, Bmoore,Quecat, and a couple of others seem to be the only Christians on here. This discussion is absurd. Romans Ch. 1 says all that needs to be said about this issue.
Jesusismyhomie,
What do you think happens when we die? Not a flame, just curious.
"No - not every "gender confused" person out there gets together with likeminded folks to scheme and dream how they might make their lifestyle mainstream. But factually, there are also many that do."
RIIIGHT Quecat... and what do you call all those fanatical religious organizations like "American Family Association" or "Focus on the Family"... THOSE are the people with the agenda, who are sitting around plotting ways to bring theocracy to the United States.
It will be a sad day if the USA ever becomes a theocracy. The greatest country in the world would become a poor backwoods hell hole in no time.
Quecat:
All I hear from you is "me, me, me" and "I, I, I". Jesus would not approve of your obviously greedy individualist mentality. Jesus was a communist.
As for the bit in the bible of rape victims marrying the racist - that can be found in Deuteronomy 22-29. I know it is part of the "Old Testament"... but it doesn't matter.... same sh*t, different pile. :-)
I do agree with you on one thing though. Tax dollars should not be going towards keeping criminals in jail. They should have to work to pay for their room/board.... or perhaps we can adopt laws like Singapore, which has a mandatory death sentence for murder, robbery that results in death, kidnapping that results in death, and drug trafficking.... among other things too.
irenaeus, oddly enough 'bond slaves" in our society would be called employees!
Most of the Bible is God addressing the stupidity (I just can't think of a better word right now) of man. Slavery was man's idea and not Gods. Adultery was man's idea and not Gods. Homosexuality was man's idea and not Gods.
"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that wihich is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men wiht men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own person teh due penalty of their error." Romans 1:26-27
The word translated natural literally means physical. The term 'God gave them over' loosely means He didn't stop them. This passage is clear as a bell so to speak about the Bibles position on homosexuality.
furthermore,....wouldn't it be something if the earth opened up in Calif. and swallowed them?
no God, no mercy, no justice, no life,.....
nt matthew 10:14
and you are proving mine. I don't think homosexuality is immoral. you do. which one of us has the proper interpretation? and now, you are saying the Bible doesn't sanction slavery. I would strongly beg to differ. Again, whose interpretation is correct? mine or yours?
lina,
"St. Paul writes or the apostle Luke says. Don't say "God thinks" "
Only if I were not a Christian. However, as a Christian, I can rightly say God says through St. Paul or through St. Luke.
Sorry, gotta go for now with the wife and kids.
Master/slave relationships used to be real. But now they are illegal thanks to secular-minded individuals and abolishionists. Had we left that decision up to the Southern clergy....who knows? If the Bible is a perfect moral book, somewhere, something should have been published to the effect of: don't own other people. Instead, we are told not to covet our neighbor's wife or donkey.
lina,
"The Bible can be interpreted for both good and evil intentions, right? That said, what gives you the right to call homosexuality sinful from a Biblical perspective, particularly in light of all the evidence concluding its biological (and thus God-given) origins?"
Thank you for just proving my point. Those who interpret homosexuality as morally licit are interpreting it to justify their immoral behavior.
As for slavery, the Bible never sanctioned or approved slavery. It tolerated certain instances and actually gave tremendous rights and privileges to slaves. Also, you have to look at the context, because often what is translated as slaves should more accurately be translated as bondservant or indentured servant.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Matt 10:11-15 (KJV)
Then say: St. Paul writes or the apostle Luke says. Don't say "God thinks"
lina,
Are husband/wife relationships real or metaphorical? Are master/slave relationships real or metaphorical?
"It [slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts...Let the gentleman go to Revelation to learn the decree of God - let him go to the Bible...I said that slavery was sanctioned in the Bible, authorized, regulated, and recognized from Genesis to Revelation...Slavery existed then in the earliest ages, and among the chosen people of God; and in Revelation we are told that it shall exist till the end of time shall come. You find it in the Old and New Testaments - in the prophecies, psalms, and the epistles of Paul; you find it recognized, sanctioned everywhere.". [Jefferson Davis, Vol. 1, by Dunbar Rowland, pp. 286 & 316-317.]
The Bible can be interpreted for both good and evil intentions, right? That said, what gives you the right to call homosexuality sinful from a Biblical perspective, particularly in light of all the evidence concluding its biological (and thus God-given) origins?
lina,
""God only intended" "God says" "it makes God angry"....these are astoundingly self-righteous, arrogant assumptions. "
However, it is not astoundingly self-righteous or arrogant assumptions if that is what the NT authors writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit assert about God's intent or what God says.
Should wives allow their husbands to rule over them? Or was this metaphorical?
do you believe that slaves should obey their master? Or was this metaphorical?
lina,
"Then why do you keep quoting from the Old Testament? It is glaringly obvious to me that Biblical literalists conveniently reinterpret passages here and there to render them palatable to their own lives."
I'm not a Biblical literalist, and I have only quoted from the OT with regard to moral precepts that have been carried over into the NT, not the disciplinary and ceremonial ones. Also, I have quoted from the NT numerous times. BTW, I do take the Bible literally, but not literalistically; e.g., the euphemism "it's raining cats and dogs" literally means a torrential downpour because that is the literal intent of the phrase. Literalistically, it would mean that canines and felines were falling from the sky; obviously, that is not the literal intent of the phrase. Just wanted to clear that up.
"God only intended" "God says" "it makes God angry"....these are astoundingly self-righteous, arrogant assumptions.
lina,
You can go here to find an orthodox study bible. <http://www.orthodoxmarketplace.com/product.php?productid=19169>
Perhaps this will help you in your own faith tradition. I'm actually interested in purchasing one myself.
Then why do you keep quoting from the Old Testament? It is glaringly obvious to me that Biblical literalists conveniently reinterpret passages here and there to render them palatable to their own lives.
lina,
You're not really Greek Orthodox, are you?
lina,
"But God said so. Who are we to change 'the law.' "
God only intended the legality of the Old Law for the Jews, while many of the moral precepts were universal. The law was given as a schoolmaster. The moral principle of the law were fulfilled and carried into the New Law, and the legality of the Law was abrogated when the New Covenant was ushered in. This is all in the NT, and as Christians, this is part of our belief in God's action in human history.
But God said so. Who are we to change "the law."
Let's just keep the facts about the Crystal Dixon case honest.
Crystal Dixon had been the associate vice-president of Human Resources. She was responsible for insuring equity and diversity at the university. Because of such, there was some concern with whether or not she could do her job adequately. Crystal was also offered another job at the University in another department, but declined, that's when she was fired.
lina,
The penalty of death is a disciplinary matter. Regardless of the penalty un the new covenant, the acts are still morally wrong, wouldn't you agree? Or do you think that adultery, fornication, cursing one's parents are morally acceptable?
Man wrote what God wanted written:
Exodus 17:14
Then the LORD said to Moses, " Write this in a book as a memorial and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven."
Exodus 34:1
Now the LORD said to Moses, "Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered.
Exodus 34:27
Then the LORD said to Moses, " Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
Deuteronomy 27:8
"You shall write on the stones all the words of this law very distinctly."
Deuteronomy 31:19
"Now therefore, write this song for yourselves, and teach it to the sons of Israel; put it on their lips, so that this song may be a witness for Me against the sons of Israel.
Jeremiah 30:2
"Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ' Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book.
Jeremiah 36:2
"Take a scroll and write on it all the words which I have spoken to you concerning Israel and concerning Judah, and concerning all the nations, from the day I first spoke to you, from the days of Josiah, even to this day.
1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.
Revelation 1:10-12
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea." 12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;
Revelation 1:17-19
17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. 19"Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
Revelation 2:1-3
1"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this: 2 I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.
lina,
"inspired men to write....why these men? why in the middle east? why 2,000 years ago? do you ever ask yourself these very basic questions?"
Well, at least with regard to the NT, 'these men' because they were either his apostles or proteges or disciples of the apostles; 'in the middle east' because that is where these events took place; i.e., the Son of God became man and wlked the earth in the middle east; '2000 years ago, because that is when these events took place. Not too complicated.
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB
leviticus 20:13
Lina -
There you go with the hyperbole again. No - not every "gender confused" person out there gets together with likeminded folks to scheme and dream how they might make their lifestyle mainstream. But factually, there are also many that do.
Does anyone remember the old chant " We're here, we're queer and we're in your FACE!" ?
There are entire organizations devoted to the very thing.
Infiltration of government, schools, businesses and even churches with the goal of pushing for complete and total acceptance of the lifestyle, the censoring of opposing views and punishment of people that dare to speak against it, where possible.
Don't believe it? Try reading the article from earlier this week where a lady lost her job for writing a letter to the editor expressing her disagreement with the idea that the fight for "gay rights" is somehow equal to the fight for civil rights for black people and other minorities.
Yes, she was fired. What she did was not in the course of her duties and entirely personal - but she was fired nonetheless. Her employer was of the mind that she has no right to such a unpolitically correct viewpoint.
now - who isn't "nice"?
inspired men to write....why these men? why in the middle east? why 2,000 years ago? do you ever ask yourself these very basic questions?
and the cyclical argument continues - there's that word again "sin." How is it sin? Because God say so. How do you know that's what God thinks? Because it's in the Bible. How do you know the Bible is totally accurate and free of any inconsistencies and contradictions? Because God wrote it. How do you know God wrote it? It says so in the Bible. This is a dead-end argument. Again, like my first post, its like talking to asphalt or a plant.
lina,
"God did NOT write the Bible. MAN did. Inspired or not, man did. And based on this "perfect" moral instruction book, we burned witches, held slaves, started wars, colonized, raped, pillaged, and tortured for centuries. So do NOT tell me that God wrote it, lest my opinion of the all-powerful change drastically."
What does the inspriation of the scriptures have to do with man's abusive and sinful response? Yes, God was the primary author as he inspired human authors to write... your own Greek Orthodox Church teaches this. Perhaps your 'opinion' of the all-powerful needs to change since it seems deficient, at least from the Orthdox position - just hopefully for the better.
Quecat - you make it seem as if gays meet somewhere in some underground lair plotting to breed humanity out of existence. These are people who are brutally murdered (by people like you - sorry). These are people who face discrimination daily! Sorry they want to educate and reverse ignorance.
Now you are being dishonest, If you note the verse before:
Matthew 16:27
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works."
It is clear that in the next verse (Matthew 16:28) that Jesus is talking about the second coming of the son of man, not about the transfiguration on the mountain in chapter 17. Otherwise he would have then "rendered every man according to his works."
Quecat - you're not a nice person.
God did NOT write the Bible. MAN did. Inspired or not, man did. And based on this "perfect" moral instruction book, we burned witches, held slaves, started wars, colonized, raped, pillaged, and tortured for centuries. So do NOT tell me that God wrote it, lest my opinion of the all-powerful change drastically.
dbrydges, "Many fictional works contain historical accuracies, the Bible is no different."
You were talking about corruptions in the text.
Yes Lina,
INFILTRATE
Webster's says:
a. To pass (troops, for example) surreptitiously into enemy-held territory.
b. To penetrate with hostile intent
2. To enter or take up positions in gradually or surreptitiously, as for purposes of espionage or takeover
To gain entrance gradually or surreptitiously.
Did the homosexual lobby come bold-faced to parents and say " we are going to teach your small children with very graphic descriptions about how we perform a sex act, we are going to teach them that this is normal and that they should ignore the repulsion they feel when we describe these things to them, since that would be to display "homophobia" and "NOBODY" wants to be a homophobe, now do they? We are also going to encourage them to experiment with their own sexuality. Now then, do we have your approval to do this with your children?
Nope - I don't recall getting that visit. I just have people posing as "health professionals" influencing the curriculum at my schools to include the very things I've mentioned.
Infiltration.
They can't say it publicly and be up front about it, because they know they'd be sent packing!
dbrydges,
It is not difficult to read the word of God, if one asks God for wisdom and guidance and understanding.
As for the verses you asked about, the answer is simple: God does not lie; you misunderstand what is the kingdom of God.
Luke 17:20-21
20Now having been questioned by the Pharisees (as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
John 18:36
Jesus answered, " My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
Romans 14:16-18
16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.
Colossians 1:13-14
13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins
Lina,
I simply read what God wrote, and explain it to those who ask. Most of it is pretty straight forward for those who trust Christ.
to dbrydge:
Well now - congratulations on doing such a splendid job of taking verses out of context and trying to make Christ out to be a liar.
All that you've proved is that you have no grasp of scripture.
If you had bothered to continue reading past Mat 16:28 to the very next sentence which is Mat 17:1, you would discover EXACTLY what Jesus was alluding to in 16:28.
In Chapter 16, Jesus is talking to His disciples there at Cesarea Philippi about His death, and about the glory of His Father that He is going to bestow, and His coming in the glory of His Father, with His angels, rewarding every man according to his works.
Quote:
Then Jesus said, "verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, until they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom"(Mat 16:28).
However, if you don't stop at the end of chapter sixteen, but you go immediately into chapter seventeen, you'll find out what Jesus was referring to.
"And after six days Jesus takes Peter, James and John His brother, and brought them up into high mountain apart, and was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him" (Mat 17:1-3).
So Jesus was referring to the fact that some of His disciples, and those that He was referring to were Peter, James and John, that they were actually going to see Him in His glory. As He was transfigured before them, they actually saw God's glory upon Him. He was transfigured. His face did shine as the sun and His raiment was as white as the light. And there appeared unto Him, Moses, and Elijah talking with Him.
Now - while you squirm uncomfortably in your seat for accusing Christ falsely, I'll just look up and document your other accusations. Sit tight!
Many fictional works contain historical accuracies, the Bible is no different.
dbrydges: “Your premise that the Bible is an uncorrupted and authoritative source is unprovable, ergo your words are just meaningless blather.”
Far from meaningless blather, the New Testament is better attested than any other document of antiquity. wbmoore has cited some wonderful facts for comparison.
ifeelfine72, you stated, “I'll tell you exactly why I gave you a "thumb's down." You quoted someone and then put up a strawman question to knock down. You're comparing things that have no relation to one another and comparing things that have not been proven to be true and in the case of alcoholism is most definitely behavior.”
Pay close attention; I never stated that alcoholism and homosexuality are related. I am, however, using the same logic to arrive at a similar conclusion – only the subject matter has changed. lina had stated that she does not find it possible to believe homosexuality a choice, and that there must a reason for it; therefore, she believes its just part of the richness and diversity of humanity. So my response is perfectly legitimate – namely, alcoholism, kleptomania, sexual attraction to pre-pubescent girls may not be a choice for some either. So does she also render these as simply part of the richness and diversity of humanity? Very fair question.
"infiltrate?" a little harsh.
wbmoore, how do you differentiate the "truth" in the bible from the lies. I don't know how you can make heads or tails of it.
Did Jesus not say
"Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." Matthew 24
“There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16
"Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." Luke 9
"When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." Matthew 10
Since the men to whom Jesus spoke these words are now dead, and the Second Coming has not yet come to pass, Jesus was a liar. Why you'd prop up a liar as the Son of god is beyond comprehension.
It is as much my business as it is anyone else's.
When pro-gay groups have free reign to infiltrate our public schools and spread their propaganda, encouraging our youngsters to "experiment" and to consider their sexuality a "fluid thing", not set in stone, changeable, however you feel free to express yorself, then it is very much MY BUSINESS!
The moral relativists do have their tactics down pat. They've reasoned that if they can capture the hearts and minds of the nation's youth that they can re-engineer society to whatever they care to make of it, a moral relativist utopia. No right or wrong, no objective truth - whatever makes you feel good, do it. Ultimate freedom.
Some freedom. Lives destroyed by addictive behaviors, lives destroyed by communicable diseases that would never have found a foothold if particular behaviors had been avoided, lives ruined by laws put in place by people who "saw no harm" in letting people freely indulge what had previously been considered vices. Yes, absolutely free - to allow Satan to destroy their lives through complete lack of restraint and utter disdain for God.
Well now - you can see the fruits of their labors. Society becomes more sick and twisted day by day.
And this is the society that I have to live in. My tax dollars pay for a fornicating woman's abortive murder of her unborn child. My tax dollars provide food and shelter to criminals over-populating the jails. My tax dollars have to fund programs to try to "re-habilitate" people who were unable to resist the urge to gamble their familes livelihood away. And my tax dollars are sucked away from beneficial research regarding cancer or leukemia, in favor of HIV or some other behavior induced illness that garners more public attention due only to activism without regard to the number of victms!
I am obligated by the government to turn over a percentage of the fruit of the labor of my hands and this money is in turn used to fund all manner of filth. I see that as forced complicity with these people's lifestyles.
So YES - it's very much MY business! It's my business to fight against the status quo and try to make a dent in the appalling number of victims that sin produces!!
Let's see jesusismyhomie must not understand the function of the "View all" button. This matter has already been discussed at length.
But it we must repeat it for you - so be it:
Why does the militant gay lobby "deserve" so much of my attention?
It is very much my business as it is everyone else's.
The changes we are speaking about here affect the very fabric of our society. I live in this society, so the direction in which it heads is very much important to me. You may wish to oversimplify the matter and crudely paint my concern as some prurient interest in people's bedroom habits, but if you were honest about it you would know that is not the case.
The scriptures call Christians to be separate from the world - but not to withdraw, but rather remain and be salt and light to this dying world. That means not cowering behind closed doors because someone might call me a busybody. It means taking the truth of God's word to people who need to hear. There are those who have heard and remain in rebellion anyway - their condition is not my concern. It's only my job to deliver the message, it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict them of their sin.
Who I am trying to reach are those that are unsure, confused, lost, wondering what is truth. I will not sit back and let the militant sin-lobby be the sole contributor to these people's thoughts.
I will fight their lies with the truth of God and leave it in the Holy Spirit's hands to see that the seed comes to fruition.
Rom 10:13-15 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! "
wb - you miss the point. Where do you come off saying "God says" or "God thinks"
to jesusismyhomie:
re: marrying a rapist - do you care to provide the scriptural quote that says so and also further explain why you think that portion of what is no doubtedly the law, is valid in the age of grace?
I eagerly await your well documented reply.
Why do gays deserve so much of your attention and then rape victims are left alone??
It says so in the bible, so it must be true.... using your logic.
Doesn't the bible also say that female rape victims must marry their rapist? How come whenever there is a rape case in the courts, the anti-gay christians aren't outside protesting for the court to force the female victim to marry the man who raped her?? Well, it says so in the bible.
to jesusismyhomie:
Whose trying to force a book on you? Aren't you the one who chose to come to a website named "ChristianPost". Aren't you the one who read the post that you are objecting to?
Did someone physically make you do these things?
Quick someone call 911 - somebody is holding Homie hostage and making him act against his will !!
jesusismyhomie
God cares. And sadly (or God willing, happily) someday you will also.
We each are free to choose, and yet somehow the Word say that all the days of our lives are written in God's book. That tension between free will and predestiination is something that is difficult to accept. Many lean one way or the other.
The fact, is, it doesn't really matter in the end. You have the opportunity to choose to believe Christ, and so obey Him, or to choose to not believe and not obey. *shrug* you're free to choose.
I know at one time I felt I knew better than every christian in the world, and I felt them all hypocritical, and liars, and bigots. But not everyone who calls themselves a christi is in fact a christian. And the fact is, God sent His Son to suffer and die for my sins, and for yours as well. God loves you, and me. He just does not love our sins - regardless of what they are.
Well then dbrydges, you should have no problem at all !
Websters defines "bigot" as:
"a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance."
While God IS intolerant of sin - He isn't a "person" - He's God.
Also He does not treat members of "racial or ethnic" groups with hatred.
Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
What's more - despite what the loonies at Westboro in Topeka might spew,
God does NOT "hate fags".
According to modern word usage there is no bigotry involved here. I realize that you would very much like to rewrite the definition of the word to satisfy your pet causes, but since that doesn't seem to be forthcoming, we'll just have to leave the matter there for now.
Peace.
They are part of the world, loved by Him and as able as anyone to accept His free gift of grace and salvation.
Anyway who cares about what the bible says? Quit trying to force your fairy tale book on those of us who want nothing to do with it. Yes, we know you're miserable and you want to make the rest of us as miserable as you are... but we'd rather be happy and GAY! :-D
dbrydges,
You miss the point also. Its not igotry to call something that is wrong wrong - anymore than it is bigotry to call something that is blue blue. It is not wrong to call someone who is a man a man. a regonition of what is. This has no bearing on how one feels about the sin, or the color, or the person. If it is daylight, then it is daylight, regardless of what one calls it, or how one feels about it.
My kids hate to see night time come, because they have to go to bed shortly there-after. Just because they dont like it does not mean I'm being bigoted for stating that the sun has set and it is now night time and they have to go to bed. I'm simply recognizing what is. *I* am not the one who created night time. *I* am not the one who called it night time. It doesn't really matter if I call it day time, the fact is, it is still night. IT does not matter if I try to redefine night time as to include day time, the fact is, it is still dark outside, and day time is not night time - regardless of how many people want it to be. And my kids still have to go to sleep shortly after the sun goes down, regardless of what we call that or how they try to redefine it (and they've tried) or what they or I feel about it.
Recognizing truth is not bigotry,
I hope that the California Supreme Court will next enact a mandatory death sentence for crazy religious fanatics who want to insert bible laws into the consitution. They can call it "conspiracy against the state"
The simple fact of that matter is that no God that advocates bigotry is worthy of worship.
Lina, you miss the point. I KNOW poeple who have come out. I have been there done that. But doing something against what God saiys is sin. I say I am a Christian, then I must love and obey God before I love and obey myself or others.
sigh.. its a shame all my careful formatting and footnotes were lost in the posts about trusting the Bible. But oh well.
references for my previous posts concerning trusting the Bible:
“ Fletcher, Tim. “Is Christianity Credible? – Sermon 5”. <http://www.escape.ca/~acc/reading/cred5.html> [Accessed 24 October, 2001].
“Old Testament” Britannica Online. <http://www.eb.com:180/cgi-bin/g?DocF=micro/437/13.html> [Accessed 07 November, 1998].
McDowell, Josh. Evidence that Demands a Verdict (San Bernadino, CA: Here’s Life Publisher’s Inc., 1979), 53.
Adapted from Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell and “Can I Really Trust the Bible?”.
5. The New Testament documents were written while people who would remember the things Jesus did and said were still alive. Those people, especially non-believers would have objected to any contradictions. The authors of the New Testament documents were subjected to ridicule, scorn, imprisonment, and beatings. They would not have allowed themselves to be subjected to those things if their writings and what they claimed to believe were lies. Infallibility does not mean verbatim. God did not overrule the authors’ styles, the audiences the books were intended for, nor the circumstances they were written for. Each book had a different author, source and purpose.
6. Finally let’s recognize that the Bible shows remarkable unity, even though its origins are very diverse:
a. God superintended 40 different human authors to write the Bible.
i. God wrote it, speaking through the human authors.
ii. The human authors each had their own perspective, history, education, language and style.
iii. Each book was written for a specific audience and for a specific purpose.
b. It was written over a period of 1,600 years.
c. It was written in 3 different languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek).
d. The writers came from many different walks of life: prophet (Jeremiah), priest (Zechariah), shepherd (Amos), king (David), servant (Nehemiah), doctor (Luke), tax collector (Matthew) and Pharisee (Paul).
e. It was written on 3 continents: Asia, Africa, and Europe.
f. But as diverse as it is, the Bible makes up a single unit. Its doctrine, details of prophecy, what it says about Jesus Christ, and its offer of rescue for mankind. The Bible is one book made up of many books whose central theme is the telling the history of the human race through the eyes or the Hebrew people, the looking forward to, and backward to, the savior of the world, sent by God the Father – Christ Jesus – all while teaching us about God and how to trust Him and how He wants us to live and how those who accept Christ as savior will live forever with God.
iv. Perhaps the most telling prophecies are those that foretell of the coming of the savior. These are only a few of the hundreds of such prophecies:
Old Testament Verse Prophecy New Testament Fulfillment
Genesis 21:12, 22:18 All nations will be blessed through the seed of Abraham Matthew 1
Psalm 131:11; Jeremiah 23:5 One of David’s descendants would be King Matthew 1
Isaiah 7:14 Virgin birth, called “God with us” Matthew 1
Micah 5:2 The Ruler would come from Bethlehem Matthew 2:1
Hosea 11:1 The Son would be called out of Egypt Matthew 2:15
Isaiah 9:1-2 He would minister in Galilee Matthew 4:4:12-16
Isaiah 35:5-6 He would heal the deaf, blind and lame. Matthew 11:5
Zechariah 11:12 He would be sold for 30 piece of silver Matthew 26
Psalm 34:1 A friend would betray him Matthew 26
Psalm 22:16 His hands and feet would be pierced John 20:25
Isaiah 53:9 Buried with the rich Matthew 27:57-61
Psalm 68:18 Ascend into heaven Acts 1:9
4. The Bible testifies to itself.
a. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and 18:20-22 state that God’s message is identified by complete truthfulness.
b. Moses’ writings and the book of Joshua claimed to be the word of God (Exodus 24:3; Joshua 24:26).
c. Samuel claimed God spoke through him (2 Samuel 22:2-3).
d. Isaiah said in Isaiah 59:21 that God spoke through him.
e. Jeremiah said a similar thing in Jeremiah 1:9.
f. Zechariah 7:12 states that God spoke through the prophets.
g. Jesus Himself recognized the authority of the Old Testament in Matthew 4:1-11; 5:18; John 10:35, and elsewhere. In fact Matthew 22:23, Jesus claimed the writings of David were inspired by God.
h. In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus claimed the Old Testament would remain until perfection comes.
i. Jesus said in John 7:16-18 that His teaching was from God the Father.
j. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would bring to remembrance the things He said (John 14:26).
k. Jesus said in Luke 10:16 that those who listen to the apostles listen to Him.
l. The Apostle John claimed his writings were accurate and true (John 22:24).
m. Peter wrote in 2 Peter 1:20-21 that speaking for God (true prophecy) comes only from God.
n. Peter equated Paul’s writings with the Old Testament in 2 Peter 3:15-16, calling his writings scripture.
o. Paul stated in 2 Timothy 3:16 that all scripture is breathed out by God.
p. Paul claimed his writings came from God (1 Corinthians 14:37; 2 Corinthians 2:12-14; Galatians 1:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15).
q. Paul quoted from the Pentateuch and the Gospels and stated he was quoting scripture (1 Timothy 5:18).
r. Paul claimed his teaching came from God, as seen in 2 Corinthians 12:19; 1 Thessalonians 2:13.
b. The Bible speaks of historical events with accuracy.
i. The Old Testament mentions a people called the Hittites about 50 different times, and for centuries there was no proof of their existence. But in 1906, the Hittite capital was uncovered 90 miles east of the capital of the country of Turkey.
ii. Genesis 14 mentions the cities of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim, and Zoar. For YEARS critics claimed these cities and Abram’s defeat of Chedoloamer were fictitious, but in 1968 the Kingdom of Elba was unearthed, and from it over 17,000 tablets were removed. These mention the cities in question and have documented that Genesis 14 is historically accurate.
iii. The version of the events surrounding the birth of Christ written about in the New Testament book of Luke were for many years thought to be inaccurate – that there was no census, that Quirinus was not governor of Syria, and that people did not have to return to their ancestral home. However archaeological discoveries have shown that the Roman empire held a census every 14 years and that Quirinus was the governor around 7BC, and that people had return to their family home to complete a family registration – regardless of where they were living at the time.
c. The Bible is accurate in prophecies. The word of God has proven time and again that it is trustworthy – even in areas of prophecies. Deuteronomy 18:20-22 states that the test of a prophet’s authority is the accuracy of his predictions.
i. Ezekiel 26 tells of the destruction of the city of Tyre and that its ruins would be scraped into the sea and never be rebuilt. It happened exactly that way: Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the city and Alexander had his men use the ruins to build a causeway to an offshore island where the people had fled. That causeway can still be seen as a witness of the accuracy of the Bible.
ii. David predicted the rise of four great world powers: Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome (Daniel 2 and 7).
iii. The predictions against Ninevah (Nahum 1-3), Ammom and Moab (Jeremiah 48-49), Babylon (Isaiah 13-14; Jeremiah 51), and Edom (Isaiah 34; Jeremiah 49; Ezekiel 25,35) were all fulfilled.
3. The Bible is a historical document.
a. Comparisons of time spans between the earliest copy and the original date of writing for various historical documents show that the Bible is more likely to be considered a historical document than many other writings that historians have long considered historical.
Document Name Number of Manuscripts Year Written Date of Earliest Copy Time Span
Livy’s History of Rome 20 59 BC–17 AD 400 AD 383 years
Pliny the Younger’s History 7 61-113 AD 850 AD 750 years
Caesar’s Gallic Wars 10 100-44 BC 900 AD 1,000 years
Thucydides’ History 8 460-400 BC 900 AD 1,300 years
Herodotus’ History 8 480-425 BC 900 AD 1,300 years
Euripides 9 480-406 BC 1100 AD 1,500 years
Demosthenes 200 383-322 BC 100 AD 1,500 years
Aristotle 49 384-332 BC 1100 AD 1,400 years
Sophocles 193 496-406 BC 1000 AD 1,400 years
Document Name Number of Manuscripts Year Written Date of Earliest Copy Time Span
The Old Testament 2000 1200-100 BC
Maybe completed by 400 BC 900 AD
Dead Sea scrolls
125 BC 1000-1300 years
<300 years
The New Testament >24,000 40-100 AD 125 AD 25 years
When the Dead Sea scrolls were found in 1947 (buried in 68 AD), the time span between the earliest known copy and the original writing dropped to less than 300 years. They also proved that the copies we had were VERY accurate, so accurate that they showed no difference in the message, and less than 5% difference in spelling or style.
===
references:
Fletcher, Tim. “Is Christianity Credible? – Sermon 5”. <http://www.escape.ca/~acc/reading/cred5.html> [Accessed 24 October, 2001].
“Old Testament” Britannica Online. <http://www.eb.com:180/cgi-bin/g?DocF=micro/437/13.html> [Accessed 07 November, 1998].
McDowell, Josh. Evidence that Demands a Verdict (San Bernadino, CA: Here’s Life Publisher’s Inc., 1979), 53.
Adapted from Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell and “Can I Really Trust the Bible?”.
McDowell, 42
Why care if the Bible has errors or not?
a. If there are errors in the Bible, then the god who wrote it could not be perfect or powerful.
i. Another way of saying this is: any God that is all knowing and all powerful must be able to reveal himself to the world without error.
b. If the Bible has errors, then how can it be trusted to tell us about God or how to live?
i. To be able to use the Bible to learn about God and how He wants us to live, we need to know that the Bible can be trusted.
c. For the Bible to be perfect, God would have to be powerful enough to write it and then to keep it without error through out the centuries. We will see this is in fact the case.
How did we get the Bible?
a. Old Testament
i. The writings of Moses and the book of Joshua were immediately accepted as Scripture (Exodus 24:3; Joshua 24:26).
ii. The rest of the Old Testament were tested by the following principles:
1. Written by a recognized prophet of God or leader in Israel.
2. Internal evidence of its inspiration and authority. The reader was able to tell it was unique in communicating the revelation of God.
3. Writings containing obvious doctrinal and factual errors were eliminated. Books accepted by the community that was the original audience were given priority consideration.
4. Further validation was given to certain Old Testament books when they were quoted from by Christ or the New Testament writers and referred to as Scripture.
b. The New Testament
i. The books of the new testament must have been written by an apostle, like Peter or John or someone close to an apostle, such as Luke or Mark who had apostolic authorization. Positive identification of the New Testament books was necessary because there were false accounts of Christ’s life (Luke 1:1-4) and false epistles (2 Thessalonians 2:2) being distributed
ii. The church fathers supported the inspiration of the New Testament canon and carefully identified and eliminated questionable works. The Councils of Hippo (393 AD and Carthage (397 AD) accepted the 27 books that now appear in the New Testament.
When someone you love and know profoundly comes out to you, your opinion will change. Guaranteed.
dbrydges, you clearly don't have any understanding of the bible at all. Those rules and regulations that we "pick and choose" from are null and void. Christ fullfilled them with His death. We are under a new covenant now. One that teaches love and avoid the sinful nature within us.
Jesus, Himself said, "It’s not what goes into your mouth that defiles you; you are defiled by the words that come out of your mouth.” (Matthew 15:11)
It must have been the hand of God.
wb,
I know what you mean. There are some discussions that have gone on so long that I could write a book on the subject. In fact I do maintain a record of all my posts so that I can draw on them when needed as writing from scratch time and again is laborious.
Actually these forums have been a wonderful tool for me to spread the Gospel and reach people who need to hear. I was initially amazed to find how many atheists, secular humanists, pagans and "seekers" I've encountered in these forums. They came with the intention of being a spoiler or posting some smart-alecky comment.
But God says that His word will not return void.
I use every opportunity, every encounter with folks on these forums as a chance to speak the truth of God's word into their lives. Some run away, others rebel and turn hateful, some want to argue along pointless rabbit-trails, but some will engage and reason - and prayerfully still others are watching (reading) and being taught the truth although they themselves don't yet know it or recognize it.
I've been blessed by the effort too. It tests your self-control to refrain from returning spite for spite, and trains you to listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and let His words flow through you, instead of allowing your natural man to respond in a fleshly way.
And most of all, it's made more of a Bible scholar out of me. Some of the challenges that I've answered in these forums, required much study on my part. ...Study through which I've learned pearls of biblical truth of which I had not previously known!
All in all, by exercising my "gospel-speading-muscles" here - I've strenghtened my own faith, increased my understanding of God's word, practiced answering the questions of skeptics and am more confident of my abilities to engage folks, one-on-one in real life in a more knowledgeable and logical way.
Isa 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:"
2Ti 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Maranatha!
God Bless Wbmoore!! I thank God daily for fellow Christians unafraid of this world!
Gee dbrydges,
Why don't you find a clever why of giving yourself a zillion thumbs up to make it appear that everyone agrees with you. That's rather amazing that you got 22 people to agree with you within 5 seconds of posting your piece - especially considering that there aren't even that many people viewing the board at the moment.
Christians don't pick and choose, they try their hardest to glorify God. But we are sinners, and can't be perfect. Hence the entire reason Jesus came and gave His blood for us, so that they attonements of the Old Testament would pass away and we are all given the chance to salvation! People not of the Spirit will never accept the word of God as final authority.
QueCat,
Thanks. I've had these arguments time and again. I know my writing is probably pointless to those who do not believe, however, I do not write solely for them. I write in obedience to God.
And yes, it IS lonely.
But I must say, many of you good believers seem to be holding forth the truth. Just recall that it is ultimately for love of God, obedience to Him, and love of others that you do it. Not because you are 'better' or anything else. Just because you love and obey.
If you can keep that in mind, you will not get so discourged so often.
Gee walter why don't you just spit out the entire Bible. Your premise that the Bible is an uncorrupted and authoritative source is unprovable, ergo your words are just meaningless blather. There's also lots of rules about how to treat slaves (how many do you own?), about planting crops, about eating certain meats, and about wearing certain clothes at the same time too. Yet most Christians pick and choose which rules to follow. No mater how much you quote it, it does not make it any more relevant. Isn't there something about removing the log from you own eye first?
Should Christians Judge?
Let us deal with whether we should judge people or their actions.
We have to take the scripture in context and look at all of it. Jesus did not say to not judge, he said to not be a hypocrite. If you judge, you will be judged by the same standard. We are to be merciful, and not consider others less or more than ourselves, but we are to judge between right and wrong.
He said to take care of the sin in your life before you address the same sin in the lives of others.
Matthew 7:1-5
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Luke 6:36-38
“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
Jesus Himself said we are to judge what is right or wrong.
Luke 12:57
Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?
In fact, Jesus said to call sinners on their behavior:
Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Paul said to not be a hypocrite:
Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
But we are to discern what is right and wrong and avoid wrong.
Romans 12:9
Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
1 Corinthians 5:12
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
So Christians should judge their own actions first and deal with sin in their own lives. But we are to judge the sins of those inside the church. Even so, this does not mean we are to judge someone as being better or worse than ourselves.
Concerning obedience to God if you are a Christian,
Peter taught the same: Acts 5:29,
Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
The author of Hebrew taught the same: Hebrews 5:9,
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
John taught the same: 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Its about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him. We must love.
And loving someone does not mean allowing them to do something that is damaging them. It means helping them; it means confronting them gently with truth; it means not condoning bad behavior or a bad condition of heart; it means not judging the person to be bad or beneath you but to judge the behavior and evidence of the condition of their heart.
But ultimately, we have to love (God and our brothers) and obey (God).
Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying a person who is tempted toward a certain sin is any better or any worse than someone who is tempted toward a different sin. In God's eyes, all sin is horrible and He hates sin, but He loves us all enough to have sent His Son Jesus to take on human form to suffer and die for our sins, and be resurrected to show His power over death and His deity. If we accept what God has done, then we need only believe - but if we believe, then we must obey.
Christ said in Matthew 22:36-40,
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
And then Scripture also defines Love for God, - to obey God: 1 John 5:2-3
2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome
Just because someone says something does not make it so, even if they believe it. There are plenty of people who go to church and call Christ Savior and Lord, but when you look at their lives, its evident that they do not love God. To be a Christian involves following Christ - believing in Him and obeying God.
As for living a lifestyle of sin and claiming Christ as Savior, Christ said in Matthew 7:21-23,
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Jesus said we are to obey His commands.
John 14:15
If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:21
21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
Paul taught the same: Acts 26:20,
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
James taught the same: James 2:14-17,
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Christ is only the savior for those who trust in His saving work -- and if He is, then they will obey Him, If they do not obey, then that is evidence that He is not their savior.
Hebrews 5:9,
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
John taught the same: 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
It is not about being justified by the Law. Its about being who God wants you to be. Its about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him.
But if you don't obey, then you don't love Him. You are breaking the greatest commandment. This will eventually lead to eternal death.
Paul wrote in Romans 6:12-16
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
So will you be a slave to your desires or a slave to obedience to Christ? if you say you love Christ, then you must obey.
As John said in 1 Jn 3:10,
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
How Does Romans Teach Homosexuality Is Sin?
First we have to recall that God said homosexual sex is wrong in Lev 18. He repeated this in Romans 1 (that would be where he called it degrading, impurity, dishonoring, unnatural, indecent).
Romans 3:20 says we are not found righteous by the Law, but it teaches us what sin is.
Romans 6:23 says we earn death with our sin.
The Old Testament gives many concrete examples of spiritual truths that are explicitly defined in the New Testament. The basic one of which is that God comes first in your life, then others.
Let’s say that you feel sexual attraction and even love for someone of the same gender. Let’s further posit that you want to marry this person. How can that be against the spirit of what Christ said were the two greatest laws, to love God and love others as yourself?
The answer is in Romans 1:19-32. Let me break it down:
1. By putting your desires above God's you are putting yourself, a created creature, in the place of God in your life.
2. By refusing to accept what God has said about homosexual sex being a sin, you are refusing to honor God.
3. By ignoring His word, you are being ungodly, and suppressing the truth.
4. By saying that your thoughts on the subject are more important that God's thoughts on it, you are exchanging the truth of God for your own thoughts.
5. If you want to sin and ignore God, you are certainly free to do so. God will eventually give you more and more of it, until you reap what you sow. When anything takes the place of God in your life (whether its a TV, a job, a person, yourself, your desires, your fears, money, fame, a carved idol, etc), then you are sinning. If you continue to do so, you are hardening your heart. God will eventually give you over to that sin - He will eventually harden your heart.
6. Your sin will eventually move from a personal hidden thing to a public thing, to a thing where you approve of others doing your sin.
7. And your sin will cause you to do other unrighteous things.
Now, this goes against what Christ said were the two greatest commands because if you truly loved God OR yourself, you will love God with all your strength, mind, and spirit. You would be obedient to GOD rather than thinking your thoughts and feelings should take precedence over what God has said.
But instead, people who want to continue in their sin choose to argue and justify rather than Love and Obey.
But some might say that that is the essence of sin because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie. Perhaps we can not really say that homosexual sex is sin.
To address this position, we must note that in Romans 3:20, God said we learn what sin is because of the Law. If you recall, Leviticus 18 defines sexual acts God considers sin, which includes homosexual sex. So, since that is part of the Law, and the Law teaches us what sin is, then yes, God still considers those things to be sin.
Romans 3:20
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Also, if we have accepted Christ as Savior, then we have to stop sinning, because we know sin leads to death, while obedience leads to righteousness.
Romans 6:11-16
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord
Romans 8:13
13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live
You must choose to be a slave to sin or a slave to obedience – if you live a sinful life then you will die, but if you stop living a sinful life (with the help of God, which is evidence of faith), then you will live.
So yes, even in the New Testament, homosexuality is considered wrong.
There is a question as to whether homosexuality is considered a sin, or is it natural.
If we look at what the Bible teaches concerning Homosexuality, we will see that it is indeed considered to be a sin.
The verses we are interested in are:
sex with people of the same gender: Lev 18:22; Lev 20:13; Rom 1:26-27; 1 Cor 6:9-10
adultery: Gen 20:1-7; Deut 5:18; Heb 13:4
fornication: 1 Corinthians 6:18; 1 Corinthians 7:2
Note that these are in both the New Testament and the Old Testament. I call your attention to verses written by the man who said to not try to be justified by the Law. Even though he was all about teaching grace, Paul also taught the need for righteous living.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
and especially
Romans 1:24-32
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Note that God called sex with people of the same gender sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, indecent, and perversion, and something that ought not to be done.
WOW - and I'll say again WOW!
thank you, thank you to wbmoore for your considerable efforts today!
I know that refuting the lies of the enemy can oftentimes be alot of hard work.
It is very gratifying to see another brother in the Lord, call it like it is and speak the truth into people's lives. It's sometimes a very lonely road - but then again I answer only to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and it is Him and Him alone that I seek to please.
Thank you again.
God Bless brother!
Lina said:
"And Daniel - where is God to corroborate that? Where is he to defend himself?"
Hmm, why do I have thoughts of Job when i read this..
"What have you done for the world Shuck?"
I have shared Christ with others.
I also work for an engineering company that designs and builds power plants that provide for millions. Not only do we help others but the company has built its foundation on Christ. Our core values show our love for Him and how He influences and leads us to be better engineers. What have you done?
dbrydges said:
"Oh Shuck you already know the truth, you have nothing to learn, why bother listening to teachings at all, you should be the one teaching."
I do know the truth as it is written down for me.
I have plenty more to learn but I have almost read all of the NT now and I have a clear understanding of God's will.
I listen to those who preach the Word not our will.
We are all called to witness and share the glory of God and so I do tell others (even random strangers) of Christ.
Can one be living a life of sin and accurately call himself a Christian? Just because someone says something does not make it so, even if they believe it. Many go to church and call Christ Savior and Lord, but when you look at their lives, its evident that they do not love God. To be a Christian involves following Christ - believing in Him and obeying God. As for living a lifestyle of sin and claiming Christ as Savior, Christ said in Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Jesus said in John 14:23-24,
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
Paul said in Acts 26:20, First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
James said in James 2:14-17,
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Peter and other apostles said, Acts 5:29,
Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
The author of Hebrews said in Hebrews 5:9,
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
John wrote in 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
The Christian life is about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him. We must love.
Why Christians should care about any given sin in our society?
Focusing on any given sin by the church tends happen once that sin comes to the forefront of our society. We have to deal with each sin as it manifests in our lives, individually. And from my perspective, no sin is worse or better than any other sin. As we mature in Christ, we individually need to leave sin after sin behind.
Each of us needs to do this. In the process, we need to find ways of sharing God's love with all sinners, including liars, the sexually immoral, and others who live patterns of sin. But we also have to not let people call good what God has called evil. Most people recognize that murder and rape are sins. So people do not try to step forward and demand to be allowed to do them.
Just because Christ did not focus on a given sin is no reason to think he thought it was ok. He dealt with issues of the heart with some concrete examples. He mentioned problems that were common in that day. For example, Christ did not mention homosexuality directly, but He didn't mention rape either. I don't hear anyone justifying that sin. Nor do I hear rapists coming forward saying they ought to have a right to rape.
Sin is sin, and it is God who decides what constitutes sin. We have the responsibility to ensure society is not damaged by people trying to justify their selfish behavior.
As society continues to move in a direction against God, it becomes increasingly difficult not to be adversely affected by blatant manifestations of sin. While I am responsible for myself, this does not obviate the effect of society accepting sin has on me. The same is true for anyone attempting to raise children in this society. It becomes increasingly difficult to teach God's standards and expect children (whose ideas and morals are formed by what they see, hear, and experience) to embrace those ideals. It is faith in Christ that softens the heart and is reflected in a positively changed life. James and Paul both said we need to repent - which means change - and live lives that reflect that change. If one believes the word of God about needing faith in Christ, then one must live a life that reflects a changed heart. We must be obedient to Christ and help others to do the same.
That is why I think Bible believing Christians focus on any given issue at all, such as homosexuality. I doubt it would be an issue for many of us if there weren’t this tiny but loudly vocal group trying to get us to embrace (not just tolerate) a particular sin.
This is a sad ruling. I am saddened that this ruling will cause more poeple to fall into sin and turn away from God. And I doubt anything I could write here would convince you of truth, but I'll try anyway.
God is more than simply loving. He is also righteous and just and he hates.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he
Isaiah 5:16
But the LORD Almighty will be exalted by his justice, and the holy God will show himself holy by his righteousness.
Deuteronomy 12:31a You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Luke 16:15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.”
Revelation 2:6
But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
The problem is that we wish to justify ourselves and look upon ourselves as good. We convince ourselve that what we want is right and good, contrary to what God says.
Psalm 361:-3 1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes. 2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin. 3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
We have to discern what is right and wrong:
Jesus Himself said we are to judge what is right or wrong.
Luke 12:57 (Jesus said:)
Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?
We do not decide what is right or wrong, we simply accept the word of Him who created everything - HE made it, HE gets to set the rules, not us.
Jesus Himself said we are to judge what is right or wrong.
Walter
Christians, real Christians, don't condem anyone. We have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. But it is our job to daily share the truth of the bible, even when most of America will disagree. It is our job to witness and pray that others can know the joy of Christ. It is also our job to love everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, race, background, standing.. anything. But when attacked, we can't back down from God's word, because we will be asked one day "What did you do for Me and My kingdom on earth?" Um, well I tried to stand up for You, but it wasn't politically correct.
And yes I know the struggles of the homosexual as well as I can without it being me. My brother, and best friend, is gay.
"The changes we are speaking about here affect the very fabric of our society."
A society where it is acceptable to persecute people because of their sexual orientation needs to be changed. A society that embraces the "god hates fags" crowd in the name of freedom of religion needs to be changed. I'd say get on board or get out but it appears the train has already left the station. So you are left with useless hand-wringing and sputtering expressions of moral outrage, I hope that's satisfying because it's about all you can actually do while we build a better society.
Lina said:
"And Daniel - where is God to corroborate that? Where is he to defend himself? Do not tell me its "in the Bible." I do not read the Bible literally. End of story. "
For those of you here who may not know. Lina identifies herself as christian.
I know - hard to to tell.
What can I say?
Perhaps just another "cultural christian"
It's no wonder so many people get mixed messages about what Christians believe when we have such as these claiming to be spokesmen for the faith.
Those making comments on here condemning homosexuals and pre-juding them - - it's obvious that they probably have very low self-esteem and this is a very quick and efficient means of placing themselves on a pedestal.
You will never know what it's like to be gay and to have lived your whole life this way. Trying to change my sexual orientation is completely unnatural and abberant. You will never know how redeeming it feels to know that you can now get married and live your life as a "whole" person. If you feel you must condemn a portion of society with you mis-information and prejudice, I suggest you first take a good long look at your motives for doing so. You might not like what you find.
Jesus said: “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” (Mk 10:6-9).
What God made was good, male and female. A man was not given to Adam. God, a good Father, gave his son a wife (woman). God, a good Father, is not behind giving men to men and women to women.
Why perish? “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt 3:2).
It is as much my business as it is anyone else's.
When pro-gay groups have free reign to infiltrate our public schools and spread their propaganda, encouraging our youngsters to "experiment" and to consider their sexuality a "fluid thing", not set in stone, changeable, however you feel free to express yorself, then it is very much MY BUSINESS!
The moral relativists do have their tactics down pat. They've reasoned that if they can capture the hearts and minds of the nation's youth that they can re-engineer society to whatever they care to make of it, a moral relativist utopia. No right or wrong, no objective truth - whatever makes you feel good, do it. Ultimate freedom.
Some freedom. Lives destroyed by addictive behaviors, lives destroyed by communicable diseases that would never have found a foothold if particular behaviors had been avoided, lives ruined by laws put in place by people who "saw no harm" in letting people freely indulge what had previously been considered vices. Yes, absolutely free - to allow Satan to destroy their lives through complete lack of restraint and utter disdain for God.
Well now - you can see the fruits of their labors. Society becomes more sick and twisted day by day.
And this is the society that I have to live in. My tax dollars pay for a fornicating woman's abortive murder of her unborn child. My tax dollars provide food and shelter to criminals over-populating the jails. My tax dollars have to fund programs to try to "re-habilitate" people who were unable to resist the urge to gamble their familes livelihood away. And my tax dollars are sucked away from beneficial research regarding cancer or leukemia, in favor of HIV or some other behavior induced illness that garners more public attention due only to activism without regard to the number of victms!
I am obligated by the government to turn over a percentage of the fruit of the labor of my hands and this money is in turn used to fund all manner of filth. I see that as forced complicity with these people's lifestyles.
So YES - it's very much MY business! It's my business to fight against the status quo and try to make a dent in the appalling number of victims that sin produces!!
lina,
If I could travel back in time 10 years ago and bring my younger self here to have a conversation with you, you would both be ganging up on me :^)
I’ll need to pick this up with you later on. Take care and God Bless.
And Daniel - where is God to corroborate that? Where is he to defend himself? Do not tell me its "in the Bible." I do not read the Bible literally. End of story.
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:31
Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD. (Pr 18:22)
A man was not given to Adam. God, a good Father, gave his son a good thing, a wife (woman). God, a good Father, is not behind giving men to men and women to women.
Why perish? “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt 3:2).
Wilderness - I believe in evolution. Quotes Genesis to add credibility to an argument is laughable (at least to me).
God IS absolute truth. The humanist concept of arbitrary absolutes which some are talking about here has the sole purpose of justifying man refusing to accept God as the sole (soul) authority over our lives.
This ruling is simply an example of that. My 4 year old will sometimes use the largest string of illogic to get what he wants. Why? The clearly illogical will be considered logical to those who are trying to accomplish something other than truth. The same occured when a court determined the earth was flat and punished those who disagreed. Ignorance is not limited in any form for those who seek what they want instead of what God wants.
That's a good question. The difference between you and me is that I admit I am still learning truth. I'm heavily influenced by my ancestors: "pan metron ariston" (everything in moderation), "bios ouk etazomenos, ouk estein axios" (the unexamined life is not worth living), and "gnothi s'auton" (know thyself). This is indeed a free and secular country where my "truth" and yours can co-exist.
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:31
Everything was biologically good and established to operate in a non-homosexual way.
Homosexuality only came into existence after the fall of man. A manifestation of sin and death.
Why perish? “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt 3:2).
Lina,
Absolute truth is the truth given to us by God, through the prophets and authors of His Holy Word and scripture, and Jesus Christ, Himself. Of course there are misinterpretations of God’s Word floating around … and plenty of false prophets to preach them … but that does NOT mean that absolute truth “just doesn’t exist”.
My counter request … if TRUTH is all relative, then can you explain to me, “What make YOUR truth any more valid than mine, in the eyes of God?
Yes Quecat - the very fabric of society. And look just how morally corrupt Sweden, Spain, Norway, Canada, Australia, Belgium, France, Massachusetts, California, and the Netherlands are. These nations (and states) dominate every socioeconomic indicator across the board including generosity and foreign aid. It seems obvious to me that building strong, healthy societies is actually highly correlated with how a government treats its gays.
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:31
God created man in a sinless condition, no homosexuality to be seen. Homosexuality only came into manifestation after the fall of man, which makes it a manifestation of sin.
Why perish? “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt 3:2).
Actually Lina - it is very much my business as it is everyone else's.
The changes we are speaking about here affect the very fabric of our society. I live in this society, so the direction in which it heads is very much important to me. You may wish to oversimplify the matter and crudely paint my concern as some prurient interest in people's bedroom habits, but if you were honest about it you would know that is not the case.
The scriptures call us to be separate from the world - but not to withdraw, but rather remain and be salt and light to this dying world. That means not cowering behind closed doors because someone might call me a busybody. It means taking the truth of God's word to people who need to hear. There are those who have heard and remain in rebellion anyway - their condition is not my concern. It's only my job to deliver the message, it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict them of their sin.
Who I am trying to reach are those that are unsure, confused, lost, wondering what is truth. I will not sit back and let the militant sin-lobby be the sole contributor to these people's thoughts.
I will fight their lies with the truth of God and leave it in the Holy Spirit's hands to see that the seed comes to fruition.
Rom 10:13-15 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! "
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:31
God saw every thing that he had made and it was very good. Notice that God did not see any homosexual relationships. Such is not good, and had no part in the beginning. Homosexual relationships are not the creation of God, but the manifestation of that which is unseemly, unnatural, an abomination.
Muggle - what is absolute truth to you? Can you list them all?
Muggle - you consider homosexuality to be an aberration and I view it as a biological reality. You can post and repost as many Biblical quotes as you want. That does not constitute a rebuttal or argument.
lina,
without ANY absolute truth ... neither of us is wrong, which falls right in line with your reasoning.
I know. It's amazing. There are millions of scientists, philosophers, secularists, humanists, and writers dedicated to the curious and honest pursuit of unbiased knowledge and truths. These people's daily discoveries and hard work improve our lives by the second. Yet somehow, Biblical literalists dismiss them as part of a "worldy" group whose objectives are to discredit God's truth. What have you done for the world Shuck? And you Muggle? And you Quecat? Have you added to the overall accumulation of happiness to the world? To lessening its suffering? Honestly!
The Slippery Slope.
All Chrisitans denominations for almost 2000 years agree 100% that any form of Contraception is an immoral sin and is a Pagan Practice. 1930's-Some Denominations begin saying that Contraception is ok and by 1940's All Protestant Denominations say Contraception is ok.
Contraception creates more unwanted pregnancies by unmarried couples;
1972-Abortion is legalized in America 50 MILLION BABIES KILLED since then.
The Family is under attack. The family is the foundation of a civilized soceity.
Divorce rate is at an all time high. Please note; even Christian marriages that use Birth Control have a 66% divorce rate, while non-Contraceptive Christian marriages have a 1% divorce rate.
Sex is made to be both Unitive and procreative. You must be open to life when you have sex.
1990's Gay's allowed to Adopt in some states
2000's Gay Marriage is discussed and gains ground in many states. Civil unions are granted instead of Marriage.
2008-Gay marriage now legal in MA and CA.
Once you attack the family it is a slipper slope to what is the definition of family. Moral Relativism is a disease and can only be cured if all Christians start following Scripture and following Christian Tradition of the past. If we Christians stop contracepting in our marriages, we will have more babies and our marriages will grow stronger. If we have more babies, then we can outvote all these immoral secularists who are ruining our country. May God have mercy on us for becoming like Pagans and Contracepting.
lina,
I apologize for accusing you ... "auto-assumptions, power down."
>> it sounds like you've been chosen by God himself to possess some monopoloy on truth and final judgement <<
No monopoly, just the many scriptural passages that condemn homosexual "behavior" or "indulgence"
I'll give up trying to repost my previous comparison ... obviously I struck a nerve that someone didn't have the verbage to strike back with. But my point was to show the hypocrisy in normalizing one sort of aberration, while condemning another. I would bet there is a sizable group of serverely perverted guest stars of 'Dateline' who would love to see the legality of my example re-evaluated.
Oh Shuck you already know the truth, you have nothing to learn, why bother listening to teachings at all, you should be the one teaching. Maybe you should volunteer to teach that at that church to bring them back to the truth.
This is SARCASM for those who can't detect it.
Sorry - that was for Shuck.
Muggle - and how do you know the absolute truth? With so many conflicting interpretations of the Bible, did God magically appear to you and share it with you? Your self-righteousness is actually quite infuriating I'm sorry to say.
lina, clearly you have a huge missunderstanding and missrepresentation of what being a true believer is. No I'm not condemning anyone to Hell, no I'm not happy if someone goes there, and no I'm not going to stage a protest outside of a church.
As a matter of fact it's just the opposite. I'm overcome with great saddness when someone has been led from the truth. I want everyone to go to Heaven but unfortunately people will make their own choices and many choose to rely on worldly wisdom rather than God's. Why would I want to know where such a church is? Simple....so I won't step inside and listen to false teachings.
I didn't flag you Muggle. Thanks for telling me God loves me. Again, it sounds like you've been chosen by God himself to possess some monopoloy on truth and final judgement.
Why Shuck? What are you going to do? Stage a one-man protest on its lawn? Insult its gay parishoners as they enter through the front door?
Thanks Shucks. Clearly, you and God have a special relationship in which you know as much as he. Like I say to quecat, feel especially great that those you condemn and judge as being "ungodly" will burn in hell. Doesn't that give you some satisfaction?
What's none of my business? To know of a church that disregards God's word?? I think that's definately my business to know where such a church is.
ShuckCreations -
I feel it is a slippery slope indeed for men to start judging and condemning God's Church. I hear you, but am so thankful and glad that God will be the judge!
Quecat - fine. bring on Argmaggedon. It's obvious you're certain you'll be one of the saved. Leave it at that then. You should feel satisfied knowing that sinners and non-believers (2/3 of humanity) will burn in a hell for a lifetime. Doesn't that provide some sense of vindication and relief? Again, it is none of your business. None.
Shuck - it's none of your business.
The fact that there exists today apostate churches that are propagating teachings that are direct opposition to the Word of God, is by no means evidence that God has "changed his mind" about what is sin and what isn't.
An apostate church has departed from God and is teaching the "wisdom of men", tickling itching ears and leading the unwary astray. False teachers will answer to God for their misdeeds, but WE are admonished individually to be careful of whose teachings we accept.
There will be no valid excuse on Judgement Day that goes: " my preacher told me it was okay and I thought he was speaking for You (God)".
"...my partner and I have already been married by the Church and blessed by God."
I'm sorry but I seriously have to dissagree. Any church willing to condone homosexuality is no church of God.
The arguments here are all based on personal backgrounds and beliefs. When we argue for or against gay marriage, we are all right when we base it from our standards.
Christians standard of living is God's word, His entire word, and its guidance for our life. The bible says that once saved, we are to turn from our earthly ways and follow Jesus, and that includes turning from all sin. Oh I know we all still sin, but children of God feel their shame and embarrassment before God. We repent and try through Christ to change, not accept it as "who we are" and live that life. Any sin, when chosen over God, separates us from God whether we realize it or not.
The other argument is based on civil rights and secular views of this world. Who are Christians to tell them we can't marry when they don't share our beliefs on God? When it's seen from the world's eyes, we are seen as hate-mongorers, pushing our views on the world, and that isn't what we want. (I forget the verse number, but "A man without the spirit cannot accept the things of the spirit, because they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are discerned from God.")
Christians have to pray that God will open ALL sinners hearts (because we can't do it ourselves) and they will accept Him.
Muggleborn - what does that example have anything to do with gay marriage?
Quecat - its none of your business. It really just isn't. You are interfering with people's lives and happiness. Your obsession with what two adult mature people do naked is disturbing enough.
Muggleborn - here are unbiased groups who have concluded that orientation is fixed, immutable, and harmless: American Medical Association, American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Counseling Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Association of School Administrators, the American Federation of Teachers, the National Association of School Psychologists, the American Academy of Physician Assistants, and the National Education Association.
"And its really none of your business."
it would be as much mine as anyone else's, including you.
Sure God makes people gay - as I mentioned, I'm one of them! Sexuality is a gift from God, as is faith - I don't see the misled Christians asking others for "scientific proof" of others' faith.
I'm certainly not here to try to convince anyone - I leave it to God to change hearts and minds. It is becoming clear that those who choose to oppress others are fighting a desperate fight. And as far as I'm concerned, it has already been lost. I'm confident in my faith and am following the path that God has created for me. Further, even though I live in Colorado where the secular government still discriminates against gay people, my partner and I have already been married by the Church and blessed by God. Yeah - that's right! He can't be fooled by mere men and has blessed my marriage!
I repeat: expressing your "gayness" does not harm anyone. And its really none of your business Quecat.
a person can have a sexual orientation without ever having had an intimate sexual experience. Just because a person decides not to or never has the opportunity to engage in certain activities does not mean they have no defined sexuality. I have been a heterosexual for far longer than I have been sexually active, just as most homosexuals find members of the same sex attractive before their first homosexual experience. I have even met a homosexual virgin, he's saving himself for the right man, but he is undoubtedly homosexual, just like many a heterosexual has saved themselves for their wedding night.
I don't think I've ever had a choice about who I found to be sexually appealing. I certainly have choices about how I deal with my sexual feelings, however I think it is the feelings of sexual attraction that define sexuality rather than the sex act itself. All this being said, I think there is nothing immoral about 2 consenting adults of the same sex deciding to engage in a sexual relationship with one another. there is no victim, no criminal intent, and no rational argument that does not appeal to the logical fallacy of an unprovable authority to declare it immoral.
Quecat, well said.
Geewhiz Schloss,
I was "born" with a propensity to be a compulsive liar, but I don't indulge the urges of my carnal man to submit to this sin. And I most certainly don't spend my time trying to convince my brothers and sisters in Christ that "this is the way God made me and I should embrace it and thus so should you".
On the contrary we are admonished to daily take up our cross and follow Christ, not cater to or fulfill the lusts of our carnal man! Yes, Christians still sin, but it is something that causes you grief or something that you "embrace"?
Wallowing in sin is a entirely different!. Let me clarify. If I, in a moment of weakness, tell a lie, I have sinned. I wish I hadn't done it, wish it never happened, I ask forgiveness for my sin and repent of it (which means to turn from the sin with no intention of doing it again).
BUT if on the other hand.... I feed that urge to sin on a regular basis (in other words, if I make it a habit of lying, and refuse to acknowlege that it is a sin, and refuse to change), then I am in a dangerous place. It's a matter of the heart. If I knowingly and unashamedly sin, it is rebellion against God. It is saying "I don't care what you think, God. You're not worth obeying." . It's ground that I would not want to be treading.
Hbr 10:31 "[It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
I have habitual sins in my life. Everyone does. The question is...are you accepting the sin? Or are you trying to overcome it?
Our attitude towards sin should be that of Paul's treatise in Romans 7 where he expreses anguish over his sin:
Rom 7:19 "For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice."
Rom 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
But the Good News is:
Gal 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. "
CA has done nothing to balance equality by any standard that we’ve had since the 1950’s. All they’ve done is granted “extra” rights to those people with aberrational compulsions.
There is no “conclusive” evidence to support that homosexuality is purely biological in nature; at least not within a genotypical scope. Previous studies I’ve heard about of monozygotic twins should have settled that (Sorry, too lazy to look for links, today). As follows, postulates that it is phenotypical are really just fringe science, to date.
God doesn’t “make” people gay. He “left” us to that risk. He gave us over to sin; sin that we ourselves commit, propagate, and in just as many cases, fall victim too.
It’s my own theory that homosexuals have fallen victim to their own curse, which stems from original sin, through an endlessly complex web of sinful behavior and consequences of such. They’ve also been victim to the brutality and malevolence of people NOT victim to that curse … Christians and non-Christians alike.
Our society is now falling victim to the backlash … which really shouldn’t surprise anyone. Throw rocks at a hornets nest … see what happens.
lidiapurple, can you provide evidence that we are not born gay? I have yet to see any.
Day of shame? Never! perhaps for the conservative Christian right who wish to create a submissive government based on religion rather than freedom. I am happy that people may now marry without discrimination. The only basis people have for this discriminatory ban are the bible and biology. But.. the bible can not be used to interpret a law.. and shouldn't because of a separation of church and state. And.. biology is only used in the term of reproduction.. but there are many married couples who chose not to have children, and likewise there are many same-sex couples who would be happy to adopt and support children who would otherwise grow up in an orphanage. Horray for California and taboo for homophobics.
Ask any Straight couple why they choose to marry. Their answer will not be, "We want to get married so that we can have sex and make babies!" That would be absurd, since couples do not need to marry to make babies, nor is the desire to make babies a prerequisite for obtaining a marriage license.
No, the reason couples choose to marry is to make a solemn declaration, before friends and family members, that they wish to make a commitment to one another's happiness, health, and well-being, to the exclusion of all others. Those friends and family members will subsequently act as a force of encouragement for that couple to hold fast to their vows.
THAT'S what makes marriage a good thing. Gay couples recognize that and support that. And those that want to prohibit Gay couples from marrying do so only because they don't want to allow Gay couples the opportunity to PROVE that they are up to the task.
lidiapurple
Sure - I'm a great living and breathing scientific example! God created me as I am, including being gay, and I thank Him for His blessing every day.
Is acting on the urge to engage in homosexual activity a victimless sin? NO.
As Christian believers we must recognize that we are created in His image; male and female He created them. Also, the God-given covenant of marriage between a man and woman mirrors the relationship between Christ and His church. As the church we are His bride.
A relationship other than man-woman seeks to warp the image which God made of Himself and dishonors the groom-bride relationship expressed in Christ being groom to the church.
A Victimless sin? No. God's very image is mocked.
When men or women engage in homosexual behavior or when they dwell on the fantasies of submitting themselves sexually to the same sex, they desecrate that which God created in His image.
1 Cor. 6:19 & 20
"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."
1 Cor 6:18 "Flee from sexual immorality (fornication). All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body."
FORNICATION is the selected English word translation of the Greek 'porneia' - which is used to describe illicit sexual behavior/intercourse including adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
Victimless sin? No. Your own body is victimized by fornication and according to scripture, you are not your own.
Rom 8:5-8 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
Rom 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
Marriage in the eyes of God is one man and one woman. Man can put his political spins on it all he wants but it will never redefine God's view of marriage.
That being the case, there is no such thing as a homosexual relationship that will ever be anything besides fornication - sexual sin. You can fool some men, but you don't fool God.
schloss8
Can you please provide scientific proof that people are born Gay? I have not been able to find anything other than opinions and theories.
schloss8 - Amen
Thank the Lord! His guidance and the hard work of many people have brought this victory to His people that just happened to have been created gay.
Praise God!
lina said:
"Iraenus - it is unfair to compare homosexuality to alcoholism. Both are innate. But triggering one into action harms. The other does not."
First the impact on the body of two males having sex does infact cause harm. But since you need another example what about money? Or greed? These can be done without actually causing harm to others but they are still seen as sinful things. Why? Because they are put before God. Any addiction (homosexuality, porn, drinking) is always something that one must have constantly. When these things get out of control they require them more than they do of God. That is why he equated homosexuality to alcoholism. They may not particularly harmful to others but are harmful to a person's personal relationship with God.
This is a fabulous ruling. A great day for liberty and another victory for love over religiously indoctrinated hatred. This is turning into a banner year for my homosexual friends. Congratulations to them, they've won another battle in what has been a very long war.
Iraenus - it is unfair to compare homosexuality to alcoholism. Both are innate. But triggering one into action harms. The other does not.
I see the anti Christians-- feelfine and feetx have jumped into the fray again. Claiming to be a Christian they have taken up the ways of the world. Apostates is what they are. Forsakeing the ways of God for the lies of man. This ruling is a travisty on a once Christian nation and those who claim to be Christians who celibrate it this rulling are like the blind leading the blind. As hard as it is I will be praying for you all---ah sometines. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
Word of God - Holy Bible clearly states both in Old and New Testament that homosexuality is a sin:
Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
Romans 1:26-28: "For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done."
1 Corinthians 6:9-10: "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
Moreover, Jesus Christ himself defined the marriage as a bound between a man and a woman:
Mark 10:6-8: "But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female. Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one flesh."
Those who reject these words, reject Jesus Christ himself:
John 14:21-24: "Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me."
1 Thessalonians 4:2-8: "For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you."
FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH ... here's a breakdown of the seven member California Supreme Court which issued the ruling that there's so much wailing and gnashing of teeth about:
Chief Justice Ronald George, 68, a moderate Republican appointed by Gov. Pete Wilson in 1991. He wrote the 4-3 opinion striking down the state ban on same-sex marriage, which he said violates the "fundamental constitutional right to form a family relationship."
Justice Joyce Kennard, 67, a Republican appointed by Gov. George Deukmejian in 1989. She is considered a moderate and joined the majority opinion.
Justice Kathryn Mickle Werdegar, 72, a Republican appointed by Wilson in 1994. She is considered a moderate and was part of the majority in the ruling.
Justice Carlos Moreno, 59, the court's only Democratic appointee, named to the bench by Gov. Gray Davis in 2001. He is considered a moderate and voted with the majority.
Justice Marvin Baxter, 68, a Republican appointed by Deukmejian in 1990. He is considered a conservative and wrote a dissenting opinion that accused the court of substituting "its own social policy views for those expressed by the people."
Justice Ming Chin, 65, a Republican appointed by Wilson in 1996. He is considered a conservative and joined Baxter's dissenting opinion.
Justice Carol Corrigan, 59, a moderate Republican appointed by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger in 2005. Her separate dissent said that the court should not invalidate the ban but that "Californians should allow our gay and lesbian neighbors to call their unions marriages."
Sorry ten10, I accidently hit thumbs down... I gave you thumbs up!
The spiritual apathy & disunity of the churches in California allowed this scenario to occur. Chirstians in California & across America are not living as "salt & light" in their personal lives; without personal integrity in personal living, there is no power to be advocates for the biblical worldview of traditional marriage. If there is blame & responsibility to be placed anywhere, it lays at the feet of Christians & churches in America. We are living lives of compromise in the areas of sexual integrity & holiness. The truths of Scriptural principles have been diluted with satanic lies and half-truths. We struggle with materialism, sexual addictions, consumerism, & pride. So many churches & pastors are teaching the lies that homosexuality is not a sin for the sake of cultural tolerance.
This is a watershed moment for the American Church! Will we cry tears of repentance before the Throne? Or will we continue to satisfy our personal comfort needs to the detriment of our spiritual walks? Will we cower in fear of what the mainstream media and cultural elites say & think or will we boldly speak the Truth in Love & live our personal lives with holiness through the power of the Holy Spirit?
The Church cannot even begin to influence society positively until we model lives of spiritual integrity. Christians are the recipients of the Grace of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We love, because He first loved us. We forgive, because He has forgiven us first. We guard our marriages from adultery because we desire to honor Him first. We love our families with godly priorities because our children are gifts from the Lord. Only then, will the world be attracted to the beauties of traditional marriage & the freedom from the guilt & scars of unholy living. May God have mercy on us & cause us to repent!
It is fine for non Christians to believe in the seperation of Church and state, but any Christian who has read the Bible will see the stories of Kings who called Israel to repentance, and saw to it that the wicked, idolators fornicators and temple prostitutes (homosexuals) were iether executed or exiled.
At other times the priest hood would call the king of Israel to order, which brought about a reformation in Israel. The two have their distict responsibilities, the Church has excommunication as a means of discipline, and the state has the right to exercise capital punishment. And while the people worship the one true GOD as scripture requires the nation knows GOD's blessing.
This is a sad day and is only a reflection of the Evil that is shaping our country. Let's see, what Churches stand against gay marriage and affirm Traditional marriage. Not even the Anglican Communion will come out and say something one way or the other.
Why is it that only conservative Catholics, Evangelicals, Anglicans, Baptists and Methodists and Pentacostals make public their view on gay unions? Why don't more churches stand up for what is right?
We need a lot more prayer for God's guidance and we need to pray for a revival of the Holy Spirit to bring all Christians together as one so we can fight the evil one and spread the Gospel of Christ.
“There is no separation of church and state, never was. That is a lie spread by the ACLU.”
So, ahh, which church do you support for being the official state church? The Episcopal Church? Lutheran? Methodist? Or do you prefer Fundamentalists, with the police powers of the state backing them up?
Graves01,
“I never said I was against separation of church and state, didymus, you misinterpreted.”
I’m sorry I misinterpreted you, but it looked to me like you opposed “COMPLETE separation of church and state” in your post. My bad. Anyway…
Now please don’t think I’m getting down on you here, this is an honest question… You posted, “I don't want them to force their beliefs on me just like they don't want my beliefs forced on them.” How are they really forcing their beliefs on you? How are they forcing you to accept their beliefs? You’re a Christian, they’re not. So how is your Christianity lowered, or defaced, or compromised by gay marriage? Your children are going to grow up in a sinful world, whether the sin is subtle, and well hidden, or blatant and well seen. Christendom, the world we had before “liberals”, relativism, postmodernism, etc. was no security against temptation and sin, and no easier to resist.
There is no separation of church and state, never was. That is a lie spread by the ACLU.
President Jefferson's Reply:
Messrs. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, and Stephen s. Nelson
A Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, in the State of Connecticut.
Washington, January 1, 1802
Gentlemen,--The affectionate sentiment of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature would "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802
Maybe we are moving into a time again where it will be dangerous to Christian. How many of us will have the courage to stay true to our faith when faced with jail, prison and violence. The homosexual activists are very mean spirited, there is plenty of documentation about that on people who have not rolled over for them and stood up for Judeo-Christian principles and moral values.
Maybe this will be a time of testing??
seedplanter,
A couple of things I’ll say, first, we Christians I think are often self-deceived, in that we often think we are being loving with our “hate speech”. “I’m just speaking the truth in love, bro… and that’s why you are going to go to hell, Hell, HELL”. We victimize gay people when we accuse them (as so many are exemplifying here in the comments) of bringing the downfall of our society, the destruction of marriage as we know it, and even aiding the apocalypse, and ultimate destruction! Our accusations are ridiculous, they’re not loving, and they are properly called “hate speech”.
Second, our pastors need some jail time! They are wimps! Are they speaking truth to power? Are they standing up for the poor, the needy, are they standing up for righteousness? If they really were there would be a lot more pastors in jail right now. When was the last time you saw a picture of one of our great conservative pastors spending time in jail for standing up for what was right?
One of the worst things a Christian can ever do is affirm a homosexual for his/her sin. To give them false assurance that what they are doing is okay so that they can perpetuate their sin more and grow further from God. Oh what Jesus would say to Christians that do such things.
Thank you seedplanter. Times are changing, I am glad you see it also.
I work for one of the largest Chemical companies in the world as a chemical engineer. We have a network group for gays and lesbians, but if we speak up on our Christian faith, we will be disciplined and fired. And not to mention women and minorities are always promoted over white men. Our company stresses accepting of everyone, even if they throw beliefs in our face directly against everything we believe in.
I never said I was against separation of church and state, didymus, you misinterpreted. I just stated a fact. I don't want them to force their beliefs on me just like they don't want my beliefs forced on them. This ruling is just a result of this separation. It is just opening the door to other behavior based rulings, not skin color, ect.
I am not parading to stop gay marriage. Like I have said before, anyone who says love the sinner, not the sin - until they are in those shoes, there is no way to comprehend the love and sacrifice required. My brother is my best friend, and this issue is us. Showing your true love while disagreeing with a lifestyle is SO much harder than it sounds. But it can be done, and we are growing and God is working in wonderful ways with him. So as a Christian wife, mother, scientist, sister, I pray for this daily.
God bless!
"The complete separation of church and state I think is a very good thing, for the security of the church. When politics and church mix, the church is corrupted."
I understand where you are coming from, but don't you think this was the problem with the church in Germany? Isn't this what Deitrick Bonhoffer was coming to grips with as he joined the resistance? I would say that this notion of Christians in politics was exactly what the founding fathers of America had intended. As a matter of fact, most of them were Christians.
To anyone who is serious about studying up on the homosexual agenda and how it is targetting Christian speach, I highly recomend Janet Folger's book The Criminalization of Christianity.
As thorough as Folger's book is, even it wasn't completely exhaustive in research. I recently heard an interview with Chuck Colson in which he explains how Prison Fellowship has been kicked out of England because of its stand for Biblical sexual purity. I fully expect that the the group that has known as the Philidelphia eleven who were arrested for holding signs and preaching at an out-fest, will continue to happen while the mainstream news (including popular conservative news branches) will continue to ignore the issue. While homosexual are allowed to have sex fests rights in the streats in public, demonstrators are being outlawed from protesting and Christians' freedom of speach is stifled.
ifeelfine72,
It doesn't WEAKEN it, it DESTROYS it. Marriage was never, ever, ever, ever, ever, meant to be between a man and a man. For as long as we have lived it has been husband and wife. The definition of marriage tells us this. Changing marriage destroys it's original meaning.
And it's not about the sin. It's about the court itself. They could legalize lynching of Christians for all I care, but if they did so by tossing aside logic, the people, and everything else to please a minority, then OF COURSE I would lose trust in the court.
Josh: The reason I brought up divorce is because you talked about moving out of state b/c of same-sex marriage and I was wondering if other sins would make you do that. I guess not.
Same sex marriage doesn't weaken the institution of marriage it strengthens it, just like the legalization of inter-racial marriage strengthens it. Same sex marriage in no way affects my marriage whatsoever. Now if you want to argue that it changes the definition of marriage, fine but Loving vs State of VA changed the definition of marriage too (for the better I might add), what's your point? You still haven't stated how same-sex marriage weakens the INSTITUTION of marriage.
didymus, By your posts you are evidentally a Christian believer. Bearing that in mind there is a whole lot more at stake surrounding this issue than what meets the eye. There are stories that the mainstream media elite tend to ignore such as the fact that in Canada the Bible is considered 'hate speech'. They also censor radio broadcasts in Canada such as Focus on the Family. A pastor here in Illinois was visited by the FBI for preaching on Sodom and Gahmorah. Others have been arrested for preaching at gay out-fests.
This is another attack directly aimed at freedom of speach, particularly Christian speach.
Graves01,
You mention, “But what matters is where we stand and what we do to be witnesses and further God's kingdom.” But are we really furthering God’s Kingdom by barring gay marriage? Really? By denying gay marriage, does that improve heterosexual marriages? Will it lower the divorce rate? Will gay people want to convert to Christ because we pass some legislation? How is barring gay marriage really making our society more godly? Will legislation bring salvation? Our society is already in a gross state of deterioration; after all we do live in a fallen world.
You mention, “Our society is horrible, even with people who claim to be Christian being anything but. Divorce is unbelievable among with many other things that could be commented on.” There is so much passion in the conservative American church to stop gay marriage, but where is it passion to deal with these far more insidious and internal problems of hypocrisy and devastated heterosexual marriages that you mention?
One last thing, you mention, “due to the fact that our politically correct society is adamant on COMPLETE separation of church and state (and of course, you can't discriminate against anyone nowadays unless they are Christian.)”
The complete separation of church and state I think is a very good thing, for the security of the church. When politics and church mix, the church is corrupted. Imagine if the church and state mixed in this country… who said you and your church would win, imagine the official state church, the Episcopal Church, with gay bishops and gay marriages, and with State powers to force your church to do gay marriages or go underground. I doubt you’d appreciate that.
Come to think of it… you’d do well to rethink your stand on separation of church and state, the next president is likely to be Obama, and at a conference I was recently at in which Bishop Jefferts Schori spoke, the Episcopal church is planning on getting more politically active. Your desire to see a less than complete separation of church and state may soon produce some “undesirable” results.
And please, don’t say Christians are being discriminated against in this country. Black people have been discriminated against, they have been lynched, beaten, forced separatism. Gay people have been killed, and beaten. When was the last time a Christian was lynched for being a Christian in this country? When was the last time a Christian had his face beaten in with a baseball bat in this country for being a Christian? Does President Bush discriminate against Christians? I mean come on man! Discrimination? Please don’t be so wimpy.
ifeelfine72,
Don't be afraid to do some research.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/10/05/gay.marriage/index.html
I'd be more than happy to pull out a couple more sources. Californians DID ban it. All the times it has ever been proposed in VOTING, it HAS BEEN banned. A court case is not voting. Therefor this court case has overruled what the people of California have already said no to.
ifeelfine72,
I am aware that divorce contradicts marriage. That's self-evident, stop telling me. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Please, if you post something directed at me again, have the gratitude to stay on topic.
I don't know how my logic is confusing you. It would be helpful if you pointed out how. It's rather simple. Marriage is between a man and a woman. When people seek to change that, Marriage is no longer what Marriage is, between a man and a woman. Thus if Marriage is no longer what Marriage is it has been destroyed. It's simple.
I completely agree that divorce destroys marriage. Why do you keep telling me this? My point is not about divorce, it's about homosexuals coming under marriage.
And no you were not being rational. You stated:
"Actually the ONLY sin that is destroying marriage is divorce. I'll help you get a proposal on the ballot to make it illegal if you'd like. "
When in fact it's not the only sin, as demonstrated by my point above.
And furthermore, the people of the state of California don't want to ban same-sex marriages, they're pretty open to it apperently.
Josh: By definition, divorce contradicts marriage.
Josh: I'm being totally rational. I'm not trying to pick on you but I don't get your logic at all. Explain to me how it would destroy the institution of marriage?
ifeelfine72,
Furthermore, divorce has asbolutely NOTHING to do with my point. I lost trust in California courts because they tossed logic, the people's will, and all kind of other things out the door when making this decision. Not only does it contradict the definition of marriage, but it overrides the people's decision to ban homosexual marriages. Nothing like this EVER happened with divorce, and it's so irrational and biased that I cannot trust what other decisions they will make.
ifeelfine72,
Can we please be rational here. You and I both know that statemtent you just put forth was illogical, biased, and irrational. Clearly allowing homosexuals to come under the sanctity of marriage IS destroying it because slowly but surely they are changing it so that instead of husband and wife it can become husband and husband. At this rate the entire definition will be changed, thus destroying marriage.
C'mon now.
What makes you think you can trust the legislature not to make divorce legal . . . oops.
ifeelfine72,
Please read my content. I've said three times now that I am not moving because they passed what is sin to be legal. It's getting rather annoying.
Josh: Actually the only sin that is destroying marriage is divorce. I'll help you get a proposal on the ballot to make it illegal if you'd like.
ifeelfine72,
Jesus nor God for that matter EVER said treat sin with love and kindness. We are to witness to these people with the truth, and if it's offensive, so be it. I'm sure the Pharisee's didn't like Jesus' parables that clearly labeled them as evil men with evil hearts and desires.
Sure we are to treat sinners with love and respect, but surely not the sin.
"If you want to move out of your state because of what you percieve as a sin"
I assume that was directed at me. Like I said, I'm moving out of this state because I can no longer trust it's legislature. If they pull stuff like that, what makes you think they won't do it again? Obviously they got away with it.
Josh: Tell me are there any other sins that make you want to move out of the state? Divorce is legal there you know. Jesus actually spoke about that, you sure that doesn't make you want to move?
Well, I can't say I'm surprised by this ruling. While I believe that the best way to live the lives we are given is by God's Word, I understand that not everyone shares that opinion. It really is only a matter of time until marriage worldwide is defined as a partnership between individuals who "love" each other, regardless of gender, and possibly even number and species.
In the meantime and beyond, we must pray for all, for all are precious to God. We must live exemplary lives, so that we shine like stars in the universe and hopefully attract people to Christ. We must not be hateful or spiteful when rulings like these are handed down. They are simply reminders and opportunities to get on our knees, thank God for His mercy and pray, pray, pray.
God bless.
didymus,
I have lost all faith for the state of California to uphold what is right in the court of law. They have tossed aside logic, and the people as a whole (remember we, the people of California, actually voted against homosexual marriages, so in a sense democracy itself was thrown away), all to simply please a political activist group.
You make the wrong choice by stereotyping me to hate homosexuals. I have friends that are homosexual. I don't hate the person, I hate the sin. And the sin right now is destroying marriage, something that shouldn't be possible in the first place because no matter how hard anyone tries, homosexuality will never fit into marriage.
Iraneus: I'll tell you exactly why I gave you a "thumb's down." You quoted someone and then put up a strawman question to knock down. You're comparing things that have no relation to one another and comparing things that have not been proven to be true and in the case of alcoholism is most definitely behavior. Human sexuality is so ingrained in us that you can't compare it to alcoholism - alcoholism is on its face bad for you. Homosexuality isn't.
Lina: Good on you - keep up the good fight. I love to see other Christians take up this cause.
Its so obvious that most of the posters here are bigots. If you want to move out of your state because of what you percieve as a sin, or think that the second coming is that much closer because of this or think that this in some way scars your marriage - you are , no ifs ands or buts a bigot. Simple. If you were a Christian - you would act out of love and clearly few on this site are. Its disgusting. And you should be ashamed - I'm ashamed for you.
Also, you stated you quoted Duet. 12:28, I just didn't clarify, unless you are correcting
What will affect us is that our Christian children, for those of us who choose to uphold the sanctity of a biblical marriage, are subjected to the further deterioration of our society through things such as this. I am not arguing that there is anything we can do about it, due to the fact that our politically correct society is adamant on COMPLETE separation of church and state (and of course, you can't discriminate against anyone nowadays unless they are Christian.) All we can argue on is our belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. I am just stating a fact this will continue to send our secular society down the wrong path. Our society is horrible, even with people who claim to be Christian being anything but. Divorce is unbelievable among with many other things that could be commented on. But what matters is where we stand and what we do to be witnesses and further God's kingdom. The path to heaven is narrow, while the gate to hell is wide, so I am proud to oppose this (And people can't claim I am an out of touch, narrow minded Christian - my brother is openly Gay so this is more personal to me than most.)
JoshGilman ,
You said, “They have undermined the very definition of marriage, all to please a political activist group. I'm glad I only have a few years until I graduate out of California.”
You want to leave the state of California because a “political activist group” has destroyed what? Your church? Your community? Your future/current marriage? Have they ruined you relationship with God? Or is it that you just can’t stand the thought of living next to homosexuals who sometimes get to have things their way?