Updated 12:47 pm.EST, Sun November 22, 2009

Opinion|Mon, May. 19 2008 11:00 AM EDT

Exposing the Darwinian Paradox

By S. Michael Craven|Christian Post Guest Columnist

Many of you have probably seen or at least heard of Ben Stein’s documentary film, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. The film tackles allegations of suppressed academic freedom within American universities and attempts to demonstrate that any scientist who dares to question the Darwinian explanation of life on earth is sure to end his or her academic career.

The film doesn’t really argue for intelligent design, as its critics claim, it merely points out that scientific discoveries since the release of Darwin’s On the Origin of Species in 1859 reveal a growing number of “holes” in the theory. Nonetheless, the Darwinian presupposition remains so firmly entrenched within academia that it is the only accepted starting point in science and so the film exposes how universities have institutionalized its opposition to any alternative theories and true scientific inquiry.

The critics never address the central thesis of the film; they never offer any factual rebuttals, instead they ridicule the premise and any persons who point out that Darwinism is akin to religious dogma whose basis in actual science is diminishing.

The thing which most offended critics and reviewers of Stein’s film was his attempt to link Darwinism to Adolf Hitler and the Nazi’s. In an MSNBC.com review, Arthur Caplan calls the connection Stein draws between Darwin’s theory and the Holocaust “despicable.” Another critic writes, “Claiming that the Holocaust was motivated by ‘social Darwinism’ erases a long, sordid history of European anti-Semitism…. It was this anti-Semitism, inspired by the religious idea that the Jews killed Christ, that informed Hitler's willing executioners…”

Michael Giardinello, writing in the Stony Brook Independent writes, “The film points the finger at evolution as the cause for the holocaust…. There is also not a single mention of Darwin, or his theory, in Hitler's Mein Kampf.”

It is here, in the area of moral philosophy, that the Darwinian paradox is revealed. A paradox is a statement or proposition that contradicts itself. When it comes to Darwin’s evolutionary theory, this contradiction manifests in the area of morality and ethics. On the one hand, modern Darwinians posit that the universe is the result of impersonal, amoral, natural forces while on the other denying this undermines objective moral standards.

Darwin himself rejected the idea of any objective moral basis. He wrote in his autobiography that one “can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones.” Challenging the intrinsic value of human beings because they are made in the image of God, Darwin wrote “man in his arrogance thinks himself a great work, worthy of the interposition of a deity. More humble and, I believe, true to consider him created from animals.” Darwin argued the difference between man and animal was quantitative, not qualitative thus blurring the distinction between man and beast.

Nineteenth century Darwinian scientists such as influential ethnologist Friedrich Hellwald insisted that ‘The right of the stronger is a natural law.” Ernst Haeckel (famed for his concocted drawings depicting the human embryonic stages) was the first German scholar to argue that disabled infants should be killed at birth. Haeckel and other Darwinians criticized the Judeo-Christian conceptions of humanity as “anthropocentric” and counter to evolutionary progress.

Cal State professor of history, Richard Weikart points outs in his exhaustive study on evolutionary ethics, “Many leading Darwinists in the late nineteenth century … claimed that in order to foster evolutionary progress, the less-valuable elements of humanity … had to be eliminated.” This sentiment was particularly popular among German academics. Weikart goes on to point out that these Darwinians were not content to wait on “natural selection” because “they feared that Judeo-Christian and humanitarian ethics … would produce biological degeneration, since the weak and sick would be allowed to reproduce.”

Fomented by decades of Darwinian social and ethical theories, the idea of genocide as a means of purifying the races and furthering the evolutionary development of mankind became less and less objectionable, especially among the German elite. Darwin believed this was inevitable if not necessary and T. H. Huxley, the foremost Darwinian biologist in late-nineteenth century Britain, nicknamed “Darwin’s bulldog,” argued, “only from death on a genocidal scale could the few progress.” The German scholar, Hellwald wrote that evolutionary progress would occur as “fitter” humans “stride across the corpses of the vanquished; that is natural law.”

Acknowledging this influence, Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf (p. 420-421) that his philosophy by no means believes in the equality of races, but recognizes … their higher or lower value, and through this knowledge feels obliged … to promote the victory of the better, the stronger, and to demand the submission of the worse and weaker. It embraces thereby in principle the aristocratic law of nature (a term coined by Ernst Haeckel) and believes in the validity of this law down to the last individual being. It recognizes not only the different value of races, but also the different value of individuals. . . . But by no means can it approve of the right of an ethical idea existing, if this idea is a danger for the racial life of the bearer of a higher ethic.

And yet Darwinists refuse to recognize the connection to Hitler’s “Final Solution?”

Richard Kirk writing for the California Republic states it well when he writes, “If atheistic, materialistic, Darwinistic explanations permeate society, aren’t actions like those at Hadamar and Dachau made more philosophically plausible? Indeed, aren’t such actions what one should expect in a world where ‘will to power’ and the ‘struggle for existence’ are seen as ‘real’ scientific explanations and ‘intelligence’ is dismissed as a quaint epiphenomenon?”

Darwinism did not cause the Holocaust but without it, the Nazi’s would not have had the necessary scientific basis that convinced them that their program to eradicate the Jew, the disabled, and the intellectually weak was morally good. The Nazi’s were not moral anomalies, they were not ignorant or primitive; they were arguably the most sophisticated society on earth. They simply understood and embraced the moral realities of Darwinism. If it were true then everything they understood about morality and ethics must necessarily change. Under the Darwinian worldview, the highest moral good became the progress of the human race and anything which hindered this progress was immoral.

The Nazi’s understood what modern Darwinists do not; if you reject the Creator you cannot hope to live within the safety of the Creator’s rules. It is either God’s loving law or the law of the jungle.

________________________________________________

S. Michael Craven is the President of the Center for Christ & Culture, a ministry of discipleship and Church renewal that works to equip Christians with an intelligent, thoroughly Christian and missional approach to culture. For more information on the Center for Christ & Culture, additional resources, and other works by S. Michael Craven visit: www.battlefortruth.org

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  • Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Star,

    Where exactly have you been all these years? Evolutionary theory has been tested and shown its mertis both in labs and in courts, countless times over being show to valid, and teachable based on scientific merrit. Surely you recongnize all those court cases where the evolutionary theory was challenging and ended up being found correct, yes?

  • Fri May 30, 2008 5:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ifeelfine72

    There is nothing unreasonable about the rules. If you are so convinced that you have evidence to prove evolution is true then put your money where your mouth is and prove your evidence in a court of law.

  • Tue May 27, 2008 8:58 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    believer: Have you looked at the rules to the life science prize? They're completely ridiculous and don't have anything to do with science. Science isn't decided in a courthouse its decided in labratories and in the field.

  • Tue May 27, 2008 1:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    agentorangex, am I to assume you that you have indeed taken the challenge at lifescienceprize.org since your so confident that scientifically creationism does not stand a chance in either disproving evolution or proving creation?

  • Tue May 27, 2008 12:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I am impressed folks, I left the questions on the table for anyone from the opposition to actually explain the evidence on human chromosome 2 and ERV's while i gone over the weekend and not a single person bothered. Guess I shouldn't be too suprised, belever, notw06, quecat and anyone else to take a shot at those two and actually cite the evdience countering them. Cheers.

  • Tue May 27, 2008 12:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Believer,

    “To erv, agentorangex, along with all your other blog names you've evolved from and to I referred you to several books”

    Ummm., huh huh, ‘ERV’ isn’t and wasn’t me, I was away on a vacation, I enjoy our talks, but the weekend is ‘me time’. I wish I could say I was mr/mrs ‘ERV’ as their responses were quite similar to my own, however I can’t take credit for their work.

    notw06,

    “In his best-selling book, "A Brief History of Time", Stephen Hawking (perhaps the world's most famous cosmologist) refers to the phenomenon as "remarkable."

    I am glad to see notw06 is back, and as before back on track with quote mining, way to go Captain Copy N Paste.

  • Tue May 27, 2008 12:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    “how do you know that they aren't selling you a bill of goods? Why not go to some of these creationists website and read some of their stuff and see for yourself what they say.”

    Let’s be clear here Star, the science I refer is generally up to date and current and backed by very well supported empirical facts and testing and ultimately if one like yourself were to educate themselves on the actual intricacies and the details regarding how Radio metric dating works for instance, or how genes can be used to understand timelines and heredity then after researching it becomes clearer and clearer on how fallacious most the claims are that they the creationist websites put forth. This is exemplified in how I gave the examples of human chromosome 2 and ERV’s and how places like AIG make no scientific explanation at all, they simply retort with ‘god made it that way’ and leave it at that. Sorry star, but ‘god made it that way isn’t scientific’ and shouldn’t and can’t be taught as such in schools.

  • Sun May 25, 2008 6:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    P.s Flagged myself.

  • Sun May 25, 2008 6:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Star

    I don't see it is my task to tell you God does not exist( I have no idea why you should think that), in fact to say that God does not exist would be an impossible thing to say.

    Kind regards

    Steve

  • Sun May 25, 2008 1:39 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    steveh20

    Re:A blind man cannot see the light BUT he can feel the heat of it on his skin so he will have knowledge of the propergation of some form of electromagnectic radiation and therefore be aware that it exists and has source even if he can't view it.

    Put the blind man in a room where the temperature remains the same and turn the light on and off. He'll never know that you did anything.

    Food for thought:

    I know that God exist. I have been redeemed by the shed blood of His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ has supernaturally changed my life. I have and still do experience Him. You, an unbeliever, will never be able to tell me that God doesn't exist. Hopefully, oneday, God will remove the blinders from your spiritual eyes that you may see that He is real and that you have a need for Him.

  • Sun May 25, 2008 6:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    flagged myself

  • Sun May 25, 2008 5:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    grace 2, perhaps a better passage to consider in this matter is Romans 1:20-22, have a great Lord's Day, believer.

  • Sun May 25, 2008 3:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Gracee 2
    A blind man cannot see the light BUT he can feel the heat of it on his skin so he will have knowledge of the propergation of some form of electromagnectic radiation and therefore be aware that it exists and has source even if he can't view it.

    The person who does not see God or Gods may not be blind at all but is vewing reality ,it may be that the person who sees God or Gods is really having their eyes play a trick on them.

    Food for thought?

  • Sun May 25, 2008 1:42 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    John Marcus Doe

    A physically blind man cannot see light. Does that mean it doesn't exist?

    A spiritually blind man cannot see that God exists let alone see that he has a need for Him. Does that mean that God does not exist let alone wants to meet the blind man's need?

  • Sun May 25, 2008 1:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    B.S. Evolution is a lie? You have got to be kidding. Religon is the worst lie of all. Let's all believe that there are unrealistic things floating among us. Let's blame all bad things on a horned creature that supposedly lives beneath the earth. Have you read the bible? Well I have. And for years I have years I have been fooled by its fairytales. Now that I think about it, it;s probably the most sexist, racist, biased, dull literary work there is. And all of those say evolution is a lie, it helps to do a little reading.

  • Sun May 25, 2008 12:12 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    One form of child abuse is to raise a child to believe a lie. Evolution is a lie.

    Evolutionists have no clue as to what truth is.

    Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

  • ERVs »
    Sat May 24, 2008 11:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    "there is curriculum through both Answers in Genesis and Institute for Creation Research designed to be taught at the elementary, secondary, and college level. Many Christian schools as well as homeschoolers use this curriculum already."

    That's called child abuse.

  • ERVs »
    Sat May 24, 2008 11:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "I used to be a six-day creationist."

    Me too when I was 6 years old.

  • Sat May 24, 2008 9:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    believer: For what its worth, I used to be a six-day creationist. I took a look at the facts and found that I couldn't rectify my own fundamentalist worldview with that of what I actually saw and learned.

  • Sat May 24, 2008 9:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    believer: I'm always willing to look at evidence but every time I go to those sites, I get very little. I just went back to the AIG site and took a look at the article "Creation: Where's the Proof" (http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp) - it was the first article I clicked on. And lo and behold, no proof. The article is about not taking the Bible out of a discussion about the facts of creation. Does that seem like sound science to you? It doesn't to me. Like I said, I'm a Christian, I read / study the Bible almost every day but am not going to give up and say "God did it, no more information needed." I believe "God did it, now let's see how He did it." And the evidence for evolution is overwhelming . . . if you are truly an open minded Christian and willing to "test all things" take another run at the facts. Gods blessings on you.

  • Sat May 24, 2008 9:04 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    ifeelfine, there is curriculum through both Answers in Genesis and Institute for Creation Research designed to be taught at the elementary, secondary, and college level. Many Christian schools as well as homeschoolers use this curriculum already. It has been available since at least the mid 80s. If you're serious about wanting information that refutes evolution and teaches intelligent design go to answersingenesis.org or instituteforcreationresearch.org and you will find all the information you're looking for. But if you have your mind made up on this issue there is no need for us to bother you or erv with facts that don't agree with your view of evolution. And as I said to erv you have yourself a nice life.

  • Sat May 24, 2008 8:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    believer: First of all, let me thank you for serving in the military; I appreciate what you've done for our country. And I hope you are having an enjoyable and relaxing Memorial Day weekend.

    That aside, you've put forth some of the same strawmen arguments that we always hear and you've said some things that were just downright untrue.

    Show me this evidence that says evolution is untrue and that ID might be true? I haven't seen it and I would like to.

    At one time or another, all of the facts of evolution were debated and challenged (through peer review) and some facts are still being challenged and debated but the theory of evolution holds true - so far, no facts, let me repeat that, no facts have suggested evolution is untrue. Show me these facts.

    As an aside, a high school classroom (or below) isn't the place for this kind of rigorous scientific debate. If ID had a side to present and the facts supported / warranted the possibility of a competing theory so be it but so far, there is no competing theory and the facts don't support the possibility of one . . . mostly just a lot of huffing and puffing from folks that really don't know all that much about biology.

    You know, if you want ID "taught along side of evolution so the students can decide" then I guess you need something to teach them and so far there is nothing to teach them that hasn't been proven patently false every time it's been tested.

  • ERVs »
    Sat May 24, 2008 8:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Sorry about the cut & paste which I don't like to do but Tyson is really good at explaining things.

    http://research.amnh.org/~tyson/PerimeterOfIgnorance.php

    There may be a limit to what the human mind can figure out about our universe. But how presumptuous it would be for me to claim that if I can't solve a problem, neither can any other person who has ever lived or who will ever be born. Suppose Galileo and Laplace had felt that way? Better yet, what if Newton had not? He might then have solved Laplace's problem a century earlier, making it possible for Laplace to cross the next frontier of ignorance.

    Science is a philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance. You cannot build a program of discovery on the assumption that nobody is smart enough to figure out the answer to a problem. Once upon a time, people identified the god Neptune as the source of storms at sea. Today we call these storms hurricanes. We know when and where they start. We know what drives them. We know what mitigates their destructive power. And anyone who has studied global warming can tell you what makes them worse. The only people who still call hurricanes "acts of God" are the people who write insurance forms.

    To deny or erase the rich, colorful history of scientists and other thinkers who have invoked divinity in their work would be intellectually dishonest. Surely there's an appropriate place for intelligent design to live in the academic landscape. How about the history of religion? How about philosophy or psychology? The one place it doesn't belong is the science classroom.

    If you're not swayed by academic arguments, consider the financial consequences. Allow intelligent design into science textbooks, lecture halls, and laboratories, and the cost to the frontier of scientific discovery-the frontier that drives the economies of the future-would be incalculable. I don't want students who could make the next major breakthrough in renewable energy sources or space travel to have been taught that anything they don't understand, and that nobody yet understands, is divinely constructed and therefore beyond their intellectual capacity. The day that happens, Americans will just sit in awe of what we don't understand, while we watch the rest of the world boldly go where no mortal has gone before.

  • ERVs »
    Sat May 24, 2008 8:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    believer, I think you're trying to mix religion and science together. That's not a good idea for many reasons. I'm not very good at explaining these things but I will try.

    I will use an example with a little help from Neil DeGrasse Tyson which I will put in quotes. You've heard of Newton? Newton was a theist. Most atheist scientists would agree Newton was extremely brilliant.

    "His laws of motion and his universal law of gravitation, conceived in the mid-seventeenth century, account for cosmic phenomena that had eluded philosophers for millennia. Through those laws, one could understand the gravitational attraction of bodies in a system, and thus come to understand orbits."

    "Newton's law of gravity enables you to calculate the force of attraction between any two objects. If you introduce a third object, then each one attracts the other two, and the orbits they trace become much harder to compute. Add another object, and another, and another, and soon you have the planets in our solar system. Earth and the Sun pull on each other, but Jupiter also pulls on Earth, Saturn pulls on Earth, Mars pulls on Earth, Jupiter pulls on Saturn, Saturn pulls on Mars, and on and on."

    "Newton feared that all this pulling would render the orbits in the solar system unstable. His equations indicated that the planets should long ago have either fallen into the Sun or flown the coop-leaving the Sun, in either case, devoid of planets. Yet the solar system, as well as the larger cosmos, appeared to be the very model of order and durability. So Newton, in his greatest work, the Principia, concludes that God must occasionally step in and make things right."

    "A century later, the French astronomer and mathematician Pierre-Simon de Laplace confronted Newton's dilemma of unstable orbits head-on. Rather than view the mysterious stability of the solar system as the unknowable work of God, Laplace declared it a scientific challenge. In his multipart masterpiece, Mécanique Céleste, the first volume of which appeared in 1798, Laplace demonstrates that the solar system is stable over periods of time longer than Newton could predict. To do so, Laplace pioneered a new kind of mathematics called perturbation theory, which enabled him to examine the cumulative effects of many small forces."

    What's the point? Newton was brilliant and could have completely explained the orbits of planets if he tried hard enough. But he gave up and invoked God. A century later Laplace solved Newton's problems without the God hypothesis. It's always better to figure out how things really work. Invoking God has never solved any problem.

    Highly recommended: http://research.amnh.org/~tyson/PerimeterOfIgnorance.php

  • Sat May 24, 2008 6:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    erv, so if valid scientific evidence is presented that does not agree with evolution or should suggest the possibility of intelligent design, regardless of the credentials of the researcher or how scientific the process that viewpoint moves from being a valid scientific idea and becomes a religious issue which is forbidden to be expressed in the classroom. The only problem is that it does not violate the establishment clause because it does not promote any one religion over any other religion. What this is is another flimsy attempt to keep evolution from either being challenged or debated for the fear that if evolution as is taught today were seen as only one scientific option and not the only answer it could very well lead to the demise of secular humanism as we know it today.

  • ERVs »
    Sat May 24, 2008 4:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Hello believer. I've been reading this blog and I did notice somebody named agentorange. That's not me, so please don't blame him for anything I say.

    You suggested that religious ideas like intelligent design creationism should be taught in biology classrooms.

    There's quite a few problems with that. Legally it won't work because of the establishment clause.

    The other problem is competent biology teachers would refuse to tell their students any version of creationism has any value. When creationists on the Dover Pennsylvania school board tried to force biology teachers to read a statement about intelligent design creationism to their students, every single biology teacher refused to read it. One teacher was so mad he quit his job. There was a trial that the creationists lost, costing taxpayers one million dollars. The taxpayers were so mad the creationists were voted out of the school board.

    Only science should be taught in science classes. Religious beliefs like intelligent design creationism are not scientific. Religious ideas don't belong in public schools, and they most definitely don't belong in science classrooms. See the quote from Gould in my previous comment to understand why.

  • Sat May 24, 2008 4:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    And those supporters of intelligent design and creation will leave the classrooms all across America once and for all with their tails between their legs never to be heard from again.

    I thought that was supposed to happen at Dover, even in England we have heard of the ID movement being shown for what it is.

  • Sat May 24, 2008 4:27 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    cont. You keep minimiziing, discounting, and discarding any scientific ideas that do not support your personal view of evolution and with all do respect your very smart but your not that smart. You brag on the credentials of those who support your point of view and totally disregard the credentials of those people who present a differing viewpoint. These people are academically as credible as those who support your point of view, but then again if your assumptions are correct then why not let them come into the classroom and present and debate with those from the evolution camp who will by your scientific standards eat them for lunch make them look like the uneducated idiots they are and be done with this whole intelligent design and creation garbage once and for all. And those supporters of intelligent design and creation will leave the classrooms all across America once and for all with their tails between their legs never to be heard from again.

  • Sat May 24, 2008 3:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    To erv, agentorangex, along with all your other blog names you've evolved from and to I referred you to several books and websites that can do a whole lot better at presenting valid scientific data to support intelligent design another excellent book I would recommend in The Case For Creation by Lee Strobel who at one time in his life was as skeptical if not more skeptical and as a lawyer he set out to disprove both God, Christianity, and the Bible, he has written several other books as well about his personal journey. You have pretty much made up your mind that nothing will change it when it comes to your view on evolution and that is your God-given right and I would defend that right to the death as I did for 20 plus years in the military, so why won't you afford others that same right and opportunity?

  • Sat May 24, 2008 2:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    notw06

    Can't believe that I forgot to mention the multiverse, lots of universes all with their own parameters, all with their own fine tunning, but if they all have their own fine tunning then the idea of fine tunning becomes meaningless. Oh how I could kick myself sometimes, its so simple..

    Steve

  • ERVs »
    Sat May 24, 2008 1:46 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    believer: "In the case of evolution vs. intelligent design or creation neither side has ever presented that type of finding but both have discovered what appears to be valid scientific evidence to support their point of view. That being the case then both sides have earned the right to be presented, taught, and debated in the classroom."

    I talked about one example of the powerful evidence for evolution. The presence of identical Endogenous RetroViruses (ERVs) in identical locations in the genome of two or more species. Biologists say the only possible conclusion is these ERVs were inherited from the same ancestor species. You chose to completely ignore this evidence.

    I asked for evidence for creationism and intelligent design creationism. You provided nothing because there is nothing.

    Evolution has earned the right to be taught as the most important fact of biology. All versions of creationism have earned nothing.

    "Creation science has not entered the curriculum for a reason so simple and so basic that we often forget to mention it: because it is false, and because good teachers understand exactly why it is false. What could be more destructive of that most fragile yet most precious commodity in our entire intellectual heritage -- good teaching -- than a bill forcing honorable teachers to sully their sacred trust by granting equal treatment to a doctrine not only known to be false, but calculated to undermine any general understanding of science as an enterprise?"

    Stephen Jay Gould

  • Sat May 24, 2008 1:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Where in the quote does Penrose say the universe is finet tuned (indicating a tuner)all I read is him describing an aspect of the universe we live in. If the parmeters where diffrent we would not be here the fact we are is just a coincidence. If Penrose did come out and say that there must be a tuner all it would mean is that whilst he is a brilliant mathmatician his interptetation of those facts is flawed (do you have such a quote by the way).

    Kind regards
    Steve

  • Sat May 24, 2008 10:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Penrose continues,

    Even if we were to write a zero on each separate proton and on each separate neutron in the entire universe -- and we could throw in all the other particles as well for good measure -- we should fall far short of writing down the figure needed. The precision needed to set the universe on its course is to be in no way inferior to all that extraordinary precision that we have already become accustomed to in the superb dynamical equations (Newton's, Maxwell's, Einstein's) which govern the behavior of things from moment to moment.

  • Sat May 24, 2008 10:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Roger Penrose, the Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford, discovers that the likelihood of the universe having usable energy (low entropy) at the creation is even more astounding,

    namely, an accuracy of one part out of ten to the power of ten to the power of 123. This is an extraordinary figure. One could not possibly even write the number down in full, in our ordinary denary (power of ten) notation: it would be one followed by ten to the power of 123 successive zeros! (That is a million billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion zeros.)

  • Sat May 24, 2008 10:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    steve--
    It would appear that some fairly brilliant-minded men disagree with your muddled argument against "fine tunning".

  • Sat May 24, 2008 10:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    In his best-selling book, "A Brief History of Time", Stephen Hawking (perhaps the world's most famous cosmologist) refers to the phenomenon as "remarkable."

    "The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers (i.e. the constants of physics) seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life". "For example," Hawking writes, "if the electric charge of the electron had been only slightly different, stars would have been unable to burn hydrogen and helium, or else they would not have exploded. It seems clear that there are relatively few ranges of values for the numbers (for the constants) that would allow for development of any form of intelligent life. Most sets of values would give rise to universes that, although they might be very beautiful, would contain no one able to wonder at that beauty."

    Hawking then goes on to say that he can appreciate taking this as possible evidence of "a divine purpose in Creation and the choice of the laws of science (by God)" (ibid. p. 125).

  • Sat May 24, 2008 10:30 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The fact that the universe exhibits many features that foster organic life -- such as precisely those physical constants that result in planets and long-lived stars -- also has led some scientists to speculate that some divine influence may be present.
    August '97 issue of "Science" (the most prestigious peer-reviewed scientific journal in the United States) featured an article entitled "Science and God: A Warming Trend?"

  • Sat May 24, 2008 10:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Sir Fred Hoyle:
    A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintendent has monkeyed with the physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the consequences they produce within stars. Adds Dr. David D. Deutch: If anyone claims not to be surprised by the special features that the universe has, he is hiding his head in the sand. These special features ARE surprising and unlikely.

  • Sat May 24, 2008 10:24 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Scientists and researchers do not live in a vacuum and like every other human being have their own biases and views on various ideas and issues. As hard as they might try these personal biases and views along with their past learning will have an influence on not only their research but the interpretation of the findings of that research as well. This is true in all fields of science and research and the only way that changes is if the results of the research provide complete and total irrefutable evidence for the outcome of the study or experiment that is opposed to their original point of view and even with that the scientist or researcher still has the option to not change their view as well. In the case of evolution vs. intelligent design or creation neither side has ever presented that type of finding but both have discovered what appears to be valid scientific evidence to support their point of view. That being the case then both sides have earned the right to be presented, taught, and debated in the classroom.

  • Sat May 24, 2008 8:49 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Once again agentorangex oh excuse me I mean erv my point is and has always been is why are those in the evolutionist camp so afraid to allow any view point that is supported with valid scientific data that disagrees with evolution to be presented, taught, or debated in the class room. I don't claim to be a scientist or researcher and I'm sure that your far more knowlegable with these issues than I will ever be, but I am intelligent enough to realize that science is not always 100% accurate and that many times there is more than one possibilty to expain certain issues and that is why I am asking why the evolution camp won't allow for true academic freedom when it comes to presenting, teaching, or debating scientific views that either refute or contradict evolution. And your only response has been to present the evolutionist point of view but you never answer the real question. What are you afraid of?

  • ERVs »
    Sat May 24, 2008 6:57 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "That is why it is imperative that all people be allowed to be exposed to the fact that there is much valid scientific evidence to show that evolution might not be the only answer and that is why secular humanists are doing all they can to stop that from happening and until recently have been very effective in doing just that."

    I'm not stopping you. Let's see your evidence.

    You said you like answers in genesis. They claim the earth and the entire universe is 6,000 years old. Please feel free to give us your evidence for a 6,000 year universe. Tell us why thousands of scientists who claim there's more than enough evidence for a 14,000,000,000 year old universe and a 4,500,000,000 year old earth are wrong.

    Also, I would be interested in how those ERVs in different species match perfectly and are even in the same exact place in the genome in different species. There's countless examples of this. The biologists say the only possible explanation is these ERVs were inherited from the same ancestor species.

    Certainly you don't think God would insert identical ERVs into the exact same place in the DNA of two or more species just to deceive scientists. That would be an insult to God. By the way, I checked answersingenesis. That was their solution. They insulted God.

    So what's your explanation? Do you think you can explain it without insulting God? Or would you just like to ignore the question and hope it goes away?

    To avoid answering my question you could flag my comments. Somebody else already did that on another thread. Will that be your solution?

    I suggest you should investigate the possibility that thousands of biologists just might know what they're talking about. That's what more than 11,000 clergy did.

  • Sat May 24, 2008 6:07 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Unfortunately the secular humanists have been very effective at keeping opposing views from being presented, taught, or debated with regards to evolution as a result a large majority of individuals have never been exposed to any differing points of view. If you were ask most people they think that only religious fanatics or uneducated people don't believe in evolution, but thanks to organizations such as Answers In Genesis and Institute For Creation Research many people not only Christians are finally seeing there is indeed viable scientific evidence to show that evolution is not the only answer to the existence of life and so on. So I'm not surprised that supposedly 11,000 clergy signed off on this, but then again there were a whole lot of clergy in Germany who initially supported much of Hitler's agenda until they saw him as well as Nazism for what it really was. That is why it is imperative that all people be allowed to be exposed to the fact that there is much valid scientific evidence to show that evolution might not be the only answer and that is why secular humanists are doing all they can to stop that from happening and until recently have been very effective in doing just that.

  • Sat May 24, 2008 5:34 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    ERV, as you already know the Bible is not a science book but once again I would challenge you to show us a passage of Scripture when kept in its true and original text conflicts with true science. To this point no one from the evolution camp has answered that question the best they have done is to cite how some have interpreted scripture in a way that they believe conflicts with their evolutionary view of science but no actual scripture passage that does.

  • ERVs »
    Fri May 23, 2008 11:55 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "Guess He did not find it relevant to our salvation."

    If there was something in the Bible about ERVs I would have been very impressed. The discovery of ERVs and other discoveries have made it possible for biologists to determine evolutionary relationships with 100% accuracy. This is the smoking gun proof for the idea that all life is related. Is there still a God or Creator? I don't care. What I know for sure and what all biologists know for sure is all living species developed from other animals. The only people who deny these facts are religious people. I noticed the more educated religious people completely accept evolution. More than 11,000 clergy signed the letter below, so it's not fair to call evolution an atheistic idea.

    "We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth."

  • Fri May 23, 2008 11:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    There is no fine tunning as such in physics ,I'm taking it you mean certain conditions at the big bang(hate that phase as it was not an explosion) and parameters concerning the four forces that affect our universe. All that has happened is that in this universe they exist such that the universe has the duration, it does so that stars and planets can exist for certain amounts of time. Life can then exist,"looking back" they seem contrived, that is though a trick of the mind, putting patterns / reasons on to events that do not exist. Change the initial conditions, life does not arise, universe still exists but no body to wonder about that......
    Steve

  • Fri May 23, 2008 10:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    hey, agent, or ERV, or whatever--
    how does your faith (darwinism) answer to the fine-tuning evident in physics? Where, o where, has your wisdom gone?

  • Fri May 23, 2008 10:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    grace2, answersingenesis.org

  • Fri May 23, 2008 9:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, what website did you go to?

  • Fri May 23, 2008 9:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    erv, I just went to a website that stated that even though there are superficial similarities with regards to chromosome 2, molecurally they are totally different, so I guess the verdict is still out on this one, plus erv is that your real blogging name?

  • Fri May 23, 2008 9:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ERVs - how do you know that God doesn't exist?

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