Doctrine isn't a popular word among Christians today. Some church leaders avoid the topic when preaching from the pulpit because it tends to divide. So when Seattle church pastor Mark Driscoll began a sermon series specifically on doctrine, he received several phone calls from pastors who lead large flocks asking if anyone is still coming out to listen to the series.
"The rule is, if you have a big church you're supposed to not talk about certain things that are controversial [or] divisive," said Driscoll, pastor of Mars Hill Church, which draws mainly twenty-somethings.
But the 37-year-old pastor has his theological convictions and wants both non-Christians and Christians alike to know the core truth claims of Christianity.
Mars Hill is now eight weeks into the 13-week series titled "Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe." Driscoll is taking a break from the pulpit this coming Sunday after having preached on one of the most important and challenged dogmas of the Christian faith – the crucifixion of Jesus and atonement for sins.
"Some are erroneously teaching that the cross should not be taught because it's 'divine child abuse,'" Driscoll told church attendants as he rejected claims that the cross contradicts God's love. "Others would say 'you can't teach the cross because God is love and how will people see the love of God at the cross of Jesus?'"
"My answer is 'the cross IS the love of God,'" he stressed. "Apart from the cross all we have is a sentimental understanding of love. God doesn't just send a greeting card. He goes to a cross and dies. He does something."
Driscoll, who recently opened a sixth Mars Hill Church campus, says he is not a fundamentalist, noting that he's okay with a believer smoking or getting a tattoo. His six churches are also largely adapted to the culture in Seattle in terms of worship style, casual dress and service times. But when a person, especially an influential Christian leader, questions or undermines the essential doctrines of Christianity, Driscoll "freaks out."
"I get a nervous eye twitch," he said this week while attending the Purpose Driven Network Summit at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif.
He's also not pleased when preachers leave out doctrine and Jesus from sermons.
"So much preaching today is about seven steps to this, four steps to that, 13 steps to this. I'm totally fine if you want to have a great marriage [or] improve your business," Driscoll said. "But at the end of the day, are people learning about who Jesus is and what he's done?"
"Are we trying to give people principles without power, meaning follow [Jesus'] example but don't live in relationship with him?" he posed.
At Mars Hill Church, attendants are required to take "Gospel Class," which teaches Christian truths, in order to become members of the church. Driscoll admitted that half the people that have taken the class have gone on to become members while the other half left over disagreements with various doctrines. The current sermon series on doctrine will replace "Gospel Class" to facilitate church membership for thousands of people.
The entire "Doctrine" sermon series at Mars Hill will be published as part of a book series and small group curriculum will also be developed to accompany the book to help Christians and churches grow in "sound doctrine," Driscoll announced. The Seattle pastor continues his sermon series on June 1 with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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eahaddix
You are foolish. Your heart is not right with God.
(I flagged myself)
smbga: “We all go to church on Sunday because it's the thing to do. It's called tradition.”
Agreed.
Fellowship can happen anywhere at anytime, yet the institutional “churches’ ” extra-Biblical traditions would have us believe that fellowship must be compacted into the “box” of clergy-led Sunday services in parallel pews.
star2: “God is present in the individual Church as well.”
And?
star2: “It is important to God where you worship. Where you worship God boils down to the Lorship of Jesus Christ. Is His will important to you?”
And where does Biblical Scripture state that I must worship Mashiach Yehoshua and YHVH El the Father inside an institutional “church,” as opposed to in a fellow “born again” believer’s home, at the front of a fellow “born again” believer’s store, or some other such open place?
star2: “It is important to God where you worship Him. It is God's will that you worship Him where He wants you to. According to God's Word, if you ask Him accordiong to His will He will answer. (1 John 5:14-15).”
Again--where does Biblical Scripture state that I must worship Mashiach Yehoshua and YHVH El the Father inside an institutional “church”?
star2: “Please define what an instutional Church is to you.”
I believe that the term “institutional” has two definitions.
First, all fellowships could be called “institutional.” Specifically, all fellowships of “born again” believers inevitably “institute” informal and formal extra-Biblical norms, such as in informal social norms, formal doctrinal norms, and informal or formal organizational norms. And, when done, one can say that such “institutes” automatically create an “institution.”
Second, a fellowship which has an institutional character can be called “institutional.” Specifically, a fellowship which places more importance on upholding informal and formal extra-Biblical norms than any other aspect of fellowship could be called “institutional.” In fact, the concept of “Churchianity” comes from this definition of “institutional.”
For this comment thread, I am using the second definition of “institutional.”
Now, do you want me to define and delineate the terms “Church” and “church” for you?
smbga: “We all go to church on Sunday because it's the thing to do. It's called tradition.”
Agreed.
Fellowship can happen anywhere at anytime, yet the institutional “churches’ ” extra-Biblical traditions would have us believe that fellowship must be compacted into the “box” of clergy-led Sunday services in parallel pews.
star2: “God is present in the individual Church as well.”
And?
star2: “It is important to God where you worship. Where you worship God boils down to the Lorship of Jesus Christ. Is His will important to you?”
And where does Biblical Scripture state that I must worship Mashiach Yehoshua and YHVH El the Father inside an institutional “church,” as opposed to in a fellow “born again” believer’s home, at the front of a fellow “born again” believer’s store, or some other such open place?
star2: “It is important to God where you worship Him. It is God's will that you worship Him where He wants you to. According to God's Word, if you ask Him accordiong to His will He will answer. (1 John 5:14-15).”
Again--where does Biblical Scripture state that I must worship Mashiach Yehoshua and YHVH El the Father inside an institutional “church”?
star2: “Please define what an instutional Church is to you.”
I believe that the term “institutional” has two definitions.
First, all fellowships could be called “institutional.” Specifically, all fellowships of “born again” believers inevitably “institute” informal and formal extra-Biblical norms, such as in informal social norms, formal doctrinal norms, and informal or formal organizational norms. And, when done, one can say that such “institutes” automatically create an “institution.”
Second, a fellowship which has an institutional character can be called “institutional.” Specifically, a fellowship which places more importance on upholding informal and formal extra-Biblical norms than any other aspect of fellowship could be called “institutional.” In fact, the concept of “Churchianity” comes from this definition of “institutional.”
For this comment thread, I am using the second definition of “institutional.”
Now, do you want me to define and delineate the terms “Church” and “church” for you?
star2, at the present I only fill pulpits but I could also serve as an interim Pastor as a church is in the process of seeking a new Pastor. But yes I have taught personal evangelism classes and some of our churches use FAITH or GROW Visitation Programs in which intentional evangelism is the key component.
believer
Do you also Pastor a Church in addition to being the Director of Missions?
I know that you involve groups of people to be involved in missions but do you also encourage and train people to do personal evangelism?
star2, well it helps me to know who I am talking to and why they take the views they do, for those who believe in Christian Universalism, talk about an oxymoron, they have no choice but to deny the inerrancy of the Scriptures and especially those passages that deal with the final demise of those who do not accept Christ as Savior prior to their physical death.
believer - Yes, I went to that website. I also looked up what Christian Universalism is. The two peach the same message. The authors of such thought have no understanding of the Word of God and they preach a different gospel.
star2, I agree with you as well the bottomline is is that the person is not in a right relationship with God and needs to be asking why have I lost that burden or did I ever have that burden. Have you been back to the Louisiana site, I went to a website viking recommended and I discovered some interesting information, the site is tentmakers.org
believer
Another reason, and it is a big one, is unforgiveness towards man and/or towards God.
believer
Re:once again a lack of tha burden could also indicate no real conversion has taken place.
I agree that a lack of conversion could be the problem. However, it is not always the problem. Their problem lies in the fact that they allowed sin to enter into their life. They disobeyed God at some point in their walk with God, didn't repent, and went into a wilderness experience. Wilderness experiences have a tendency to destroy a believer's relationship with God if he/she is stiffnecked. Over time a believer will lose their burden for the lost (if they had it to begin with) and the things of God.
Sin brings forth death.
Believers, whose lives have shown forth the regeneration of the Holy Ghost upon receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior, who is stiffnecked at times, and now is living in rebellion against God needs prayer that perhaps God will give them the grace to repent. And once grace is received for repentance that they will surrender.
believer
Re:one thing I would add that is desperately needed in the church today, a hunger for God's burden for the lost
I agree. We need to pray that God will send forth laborers into the harvest.
Luke 10: 1-9
1 After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 THREFORE SAID HE UNTO THEM, THE HAREVEST TRULY IS GREAT, BUT THE LABOURERS ARE FEW: PRAY YE THEREFORE THE LORD OF THE HARVEST, THAT HE WOULD SEND FORTH LABOURERS INTO HIS HARVEST.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
smbga, I agree many who profess to be believers lack a hunger for the Word of God which could be an indicator there has been no genuine conversion experience in that person's life, but one thing I would add that is desperately needed in the church today, a hunger for God's burden for the lost and once again a lack of tha burden could also indicate no real conversion has taken place. We have the only solution to the disease of lostness and the Church alone has been commissioned by God to deliver that solution to a lost and dying world.
the Truth of this matter is that no one wants the Word of God. We all go to church on Sunday because it's the thing to do. It's called tradition. Jesus himself spoke against tradition. We need to consecrate ourselves to living a pure holy life and hunger for His Word. That isn't going to happen unless we pray that God gives us a hunger and thirst for His Word. Not a bunch of junk from the pulpit.
star2, mathetes, logicshallprevail, you guys fought a good fight but unfortunately it appears that when your whole worldview is at risk some will use any means necessary to defend it. To be honest I'm more concerned with those who claim to be one of us. You see if we are wrong about our view we turn out to be a bunch of dumb Christians but if their view is wrong they are not only dumb Christians they are guilty of aiding and abetting in the eternal demise of who knows hundreds of thousands of people because their view of evolution was paramount in their belief that their is no God and therefore no need to be saved. So I guess for me when push comes to shove I'm comfortable being a dumb Christian on this one. Once again good job and hope to blog you soon, be blessed as you serve Him, believer
There is a famine of the Word of God today. It is a tragedy, but the Word of God is not spoken anymore. Preachers are preaching what the people want to hear to make them feel good and to appease their flesh.
Many people think God is sending you to hell because of your disbelief. Moses said you ye this day whom you will serve. You choose, now to be apart from God is not to know Him or what anything to do with Him. There are only two places to choose, heaven or hell. God longs that no man should perish. However if you choose to be apart from God, He has no choice when you are before Him but forefill your desire. You can't change your mind when it comes to the time of judgment. Judgment is the time when the Judge decieve; The plantiff has has plenty of time to make his case based on the law. Like lawyers, we should know the law as to decide to obey or not. So if you have the power to choose, why are you blaming God?
I am not sure why someone flagged me, when I actually know Mark Driscoll. I attended his church about fiver years ago before thinking I wanted to be in Seminary. I am currently in Seminary and Thank God for all the Pastors who taught me sound Christian doctrine.
I simply stated that while Mark is very conservative morally which is great, that he has earned himself a very poor reputation in Seattle for caustic remarks against fellow Christians. Mark has constantly engendered poor relationships in the Mainline Protestant community here in Seattle acting like if you don't accept his teachings of Scripture then you are wrong, not him. For a church that is relatively new, his sardonic attitude towards mainline churches that have been in Seattle for 100+ years is unfortunate and his hubris is beyond compare.
While doctrine is key to foundational Christian theology, Mark Driscoll only offers his way of interpretation. Mark's way or the highway is the picture I hope to paint, which is fact and not calumny.
For those who think that the teaching of biblical doctrine is unimportant please visit the recent evolution articles and especially pay attention to those who claim to be believers and for the most part reject the Bible account of Creation. It is so sad to see how biblically illiterate so many believers are. This is why we need to teach Christians not only what the Bible teachs, but how to take the truths of God's Word and apply them to our daily living.
I am with Believer and Star2 on this one!
Many blessings.
believer - He only presents the evolution view.
believer - He has never made an appearance. He made two videos himself. They traced the history of ape-human like skulls fossil finds. He did a good job on it. He sincererly believes in evolution but you know that can change because all things are possible with God.
star2, went to youtube, does he ever make an appearance or just post other people from his point of view, needless to say I noticed he doesn't present anyone from the opposing view or at least I did not see any, believer
Jesus4him, the only problem I have with some of these articles is they some times use too wide a brush. There are some churches that either by their own choice or by the perception of others have been labeled as emerging churches. Yet they are solid Bible believing, Bible teaching, and Bible living churches and they are being used of God to both bring people to Christ and discipling them to wholeheartedly follow Christ. I personally do not like a lot of the things I see going on or permitted to go on in emergent churches and I do agree as a result many of their members are not being solidly planted in the Word of God and as a result not living very godly and holy lives.
fullgospel, I need to correct myself the only exception to using books or articles that either contradict, compromise, and/or violate the Word of God would be if the preacher or teacher is showing just that and how we as believers need to respond to those contradicitons, compromises, and/or violations as well as how to approach those who adhere to those false views.
fullgospel, we need teachers and preachers who have a paasion for not only what they present but for who they present it to, we don't need wishy-washy preaching or teaching, but their authority must come from Christ working through them by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in them by both using and seeing the Bible as the only authoritative and inerrant Word of God. I have no problem with the use of other books or articles as long as they are only seen as supplementary at best and in no way, shape, or form contradict, compromise, or violate God's Word.
If anyone would like to see what postmodern heresy and the seeker friendly movement is doing to the Body of Christ, please log on to the following articles. It may shed some light on what is occurring in the end times which we live.
"The Emerging Church: Last Days Apostasy and a Return To Darkness" - found at: http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c29.shtml
"How to Know When the Emerging Church Shows Signs of Emerging in Your Church" - found at: http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c54.shtml
"The Inclusive Gospel" - found at: http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c66.shtml
"Is Apostasy Possible" - found at: http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c39.shtm
Ms shooter38
Your dissatifaction is not with Church but with your own life with God. Get your eyes off of man and get your eyes on Jesus. Repent and make Jesus Christ the Lord of your life. Walk in obedience to Him and He will fulfil the desires of your heart.
The thing that's interesting is that if we're trying to assert that the Bible is our only authority, it doesn't say "these are the fundamentals and these are not." That's 100% within the realm of the opinions of those who read the Bible. So, it raises the question "don't we need authoritatitive teachers who can say with certainty what the Bible means?" But that tends to undermine point #1.
For my part, I believe that Jesus founded a Church that the gates of hell never prevailed against, and one of the gifts of that Church is the ability to teach authoritatively. One could view it as doctrine; others could view it as Jesus speaking through His Church. The latter is just more logical to me.
Jesus4me, great job in presenting the plan of salvation, the importance of discipleship and what Christianity is all about, I too prefer the KISS approach to presenting the Gospel, be blessed as you serve Him, believer
This will be my last post on this subject.
First-- shooter38 is a she not a he:)
Second--Please check this website www.lifestresm.org
True Christianity is not about attending a particular church, or how your parents raised you, or what country you were born in. Being a Christian means that you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, that He is your Savior. It's not good enough that your priest, pastor, mother, or aunt knows Jesus, you must know Him for yourself. They cannot believe in Him for you, you must believe for yourself. They cannot repent for you, you must repent for yourself.
Jesus is everywhere all the time. He can hear you now if you ask Him for forgiveness. Please turn your life over to Him now. Time slips by so quickly, don't miss this opportunity. If you want to pray and ask Jesus to be your Savior, you can say a prayer something like this:
"Jesus, I know that I have sinned against you. I know the truth is that I have sinned by my own choice, and I am the one responsible for it. I know that I have earned punishment from You, and that the fair punishment would be death. Jesus, I believe that You died in my place. Forgive me for my sin. I cannot cover or take my sin away, I am relying totally and only on You. You are the only one who can save me. I reject my sin, I turn away from it, I repent. Come into my life, take away my sin, and show me how to live my life in a way that is right and pleasing to You."
If you have prayed this, you are saved! You are now completely forgiven, a new creation, innocent in the eyes of God. Welcome to the family of God!
It is important for you to start to grow in your relationship with Jesus. Just like any relationship, you need to spend time with someone if you want to know them well. The way to know God is through the Bible. We have a few different Bible studies here that will help you get going. It's also important to find a church you can attend where they teach the Bible. This will allow you to talk with a pastor who will help explain questions you might have, and it will give you a chance to spend time with other Christians who can encourage you.
The Gospel Message:
The simple truth is that there is a God who created you and loves you very much. (Genesis 1:1) He gave us life and deserves our gratitude and love.
We, however, have chosen to disobey Him and sin against Him; all of us have done wrong and failed to do what is right. (Romans 3:23) We may not be more sinful than our neighbor, or we may be far worse than anyone we know, it does not matter. Either way, we are guilty before God. (1 John 1:8)
God is perfect, completely good, always right and fair. He cannot tolerate sin. He cannot simply overlook the fact that we have chosen to disobey Him. The Bible says "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) This means that the fair payment for our rebellion against God is death. It is the punishment that we deserve.
Jesus, the one and only Son of God, came to earth and lived a perfect sinless life. He was crucified even though He was completely innocent. He received the punishment that we deserved. He was the perfect sacrifice, He was put into our place and took on Himself the sentence of death that should have been ours. (Romans 5:8)
Jesus did not, however, remain dead. After three days, He rose from the grave and later ascended into heaven. He will return for all those who are trusting in Him as their Savior.
Jesus died for you. You can be saved by asking Him for forgiveness from your sins. If you are willing to repent of your sin, He is waiting to forgive you. It doesn't matter what you have done in the past, if you cry out to Jesus for forgiveness, He will not reject you. The word "repent" literally means "to turn away from." You need to look at your life, admit that you are a sinner, genuinely desire to turn your back on that sin, and ask Him to forgive you. If you do this, He promises to forgive you.
BTW: I quoted this o my previous statement, becaus there are some on the board who are dissatisfied with the curent trend in "institutional churches" so I have listed these to give a little bit of options for the believer(s) who is/are currently going thru this issue. Also, they may want to check out a local Calvary Chapel. I too was dissatisfied with institutional denomination(s); therefore, the Lord brought me into fellowship with Calvary Chapel. The Book by Book chapter by chapter, line by line reading of the Word of God on a weekly, monthly, and yearly basis has helped me tremendously in my walk with the Lord. If any of you want to attend solid Bible teaching churches, you can look on the web at http://www.calvarychapel.com/
i find it funny that a site that is specifically talking about sound doctrine has someone who has flaged my Jude chapter 1 passage speking specifically about what false doctrine does. Appearently that Book of the Bible hit a sour note with someone on the board who just doesn't like sound doctrine. I will say it again: if you want to hear fluffly stuff that is non scriptural or stuff that is pseudo scriptural mixed in with the wisdom of men (not of God), then turn on TBN, and liste to the "prosperity name it and claim it gospel", or the joel osteen happy motivational speaking man centered gospel, or attend a "purpose driven seminar"from rick warren himself, or lastly, listen to brian mclaren one of the founders of the emergent church movement. in those you will find TONS of FLUFFY Christianity, and flat out heresy. But, if you trully want to learn and grow i the Word of God, you must be taught, and or discipled (as the Scripture defines the term) in a Bible teaching movement/denomination/ house church/Home Bible Study/Underground Church/Crusade/ Evangelistic Outreach/Body of Beleievers. Otherwise, you will do to yourself a great injustice, and in the meanwhile be feedig yourself poison. The Word of God is to be taken in it's entirety and applied to one's life in context. There is way to much false doctrine being taught nowadays. No wonder some people are dissatisfied wit Churches. However, having said this, just cause one is in a family with problems, or is disfunctional, or needs work, doesn't mean one bails out, and throws the Baby out with the bath water. As long as where one is being taught, is a place that teaches sound doctrine in context, then one ca grow from a defenseless baby Christian to one who can put on the Whole armor of God daily and join the spiritual battle that all of us are in; rathr than be on the sidelines watching.
star2, no I'm not Sean Penn, but I do like Pizza, Ha! Have a greta Memorial Day and Praise God that we serve the greatest Hero of all who paid the greatest sacrifice of all!!
believer - are your initials SP?
star2, did not get e-mail, believer
all God's children should be keepers of the Truth because God lives in you. willing to defend the Faith With Scripture, Just like Jesus did. Truth against Lies. Truth always wins , when light shines the darkness runs! Satan and man make many accusations against God and his Son but Jesus fully manifested his Father on earth, left nothing out, so all can see the Father. All accusations have been proven false and not valid! God is Righteous and satan and mans attacks are worthless.
star2, at my wife's computer will check mine in morning, thanks and good night.
believer
BTW, ERVs is the guy I told you about who keeps changing his name all the time.
believer - Now, now, old? No, I am a 59 soon to be 60 yr young female.
Glad to hear your service went well. The body of Christ needs to hear that kind of message.
Yes, I have been to that website. Karl Priest of that website is the Karl who made the post on CP.
Re:I did see that but like I said it's kind of scary how similar they are when it comes to their haughty attitudes toward those who disagree.
If you go to some of the evolution websites, you'll find the same haughty attitude plus the same kind of speech towards Christians as they have.
I think I know who you are. I sent you an email, did you get it?
star2, if you haven't already check out the website Karl put up, lifescienceprize.org I found it very informative and an easy read compared to similar sites.
star2, I did see that but like I said it's kind of scary how similar they are when it comes to their haughty attitudes toward those who disagree. Service went well, I spoke to the issue of what a truly revived local church looks like it was dealing with the three Ts of stewardship, time, talent, and treasure thanks for asking and have a blessed week, I'm glad to see I'm not the only old geezer out here.
believer
In case you didn't see it on a different thread:
ERVs is not agentorangex. agentorange has never changed his name other than the ending part of it. At first he was agentorange, then agentorange20, and now agentorangex. For some reason CP denied him access under his name so he signed back on with a different ending to his name.
believer
How did your service go tonight?
star2, thanks and I'll give it a shot.