Doctrine isn't a popular word among Christians today. Some church leaders avoid the topic when preaching from the pulpit because it tends to divide. So when Seattle church pastor Mark Driscoll began a sermon series specifically on doctrine, he received several phone calls from pastors who lead large flocks asking if anyone is still coming out to listen to the series.
"The rule is, if you have a big church you're supposed to not talk about certain things that are controversial [or] divisive," said Driscoll, pastor of Mars Hill Church, which draws mainly twenty-somethings.
But the 37-year-old pastor has his theological convictions and wants both non-Christians and Christians alike to know the core truth claims of Christianity.
Mars Hill is now eight weeks into the 13-week series titled "Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe." Driscoll is taking a break from the pulpit this coming Sunday after having preached on one of the most important and challenged dogmas of the Christian faith – the crucifixion of Jesus and atonement for sins.
"Some are erroneously teaching that the cross should not be taught because it's 'divine child abuse,'" Driscoll told church attendants as he rejected claims that the cross contradicts God's love. "Others would say 'you can't teach the cross because God is love and how will people see the love of God at the cross of Jesus?'"
"My answer is 'the cross IS the love of God,'" he stressed. "Apart from the cross all we have is a sentimental understanding of love. God doesn't just send a greeting card. He goes to a cross and dies. He does something."
Driscoll, who recently opened a sixth Mars Hill Church campus, says he is not a fundamentalist, noting that he's okay with a believer smoking or getting a tattoo. His six churches are also largely adapted to the culture in Seattle in terms of worship style, casual dress and service times. But when a person, especially an influential Christian leader, questions or undermines the essential doctrines of Christianity, Driscoll "freaks out."
"I get a nervous eye twitch," he said this week while attending the Purpose Driven Network Summit at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif.
He's also not pleased when preachers leave out doctrine and Jesus from sermons.
"So much preaching today is about seven steps to this, four steps to that, 13 steps to this. I'm totally fine if you want to have a great marriage [or] improve your business," Driscoll said. "But at the end of the day, are people learning about who Jesus is and what he's done?"
"Are we trying to give people principles without power, meaning follow [Jesus'] example but don't live in relationship with him?" he posed.
At Mars Hill Church, attendants are required to take "Gospel Class," which teaches Christian truths, in order to become members of the church. Driscoll admitted that half the people that have taken the class have gone on to become members while the other half left over disagreements with various doctrines. The current sermon series on doctrine will replace "Gospel Class" to facilitate church membership for thousands of people.
The entire "Doctrine" sermon series at Mars Hill will be published as part of a book series and small group curriculum will also be developed to accompany the book to help Christians and churches grow in "sound doctrine," Driscoll announced. The Seattle pastor continues his sermon series on June 1 with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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eahaddix
You are foolish. Your heart is not right with God.
(I flagged myself)
star2, at the present I only fill pulpits but I could also serve as an interim Pastor as a church is in the process of seeking a new Pastor. But yes I have taught personal evangelism classes and some of our churches use FAITH or GROW Visitation Programs in which intentional evangelism is the key component.
believer
Do you also Pastor a Church in addition to being the Director of Missions?
I know that you involve groups of people to be involved in missions but do you also encourage and train people to do personal evangelism?
star2, well it helps me to know who I am talking to and why they take the views they do, for those who believe in Christian Universalism, talk about an oxymoron, they have no choice but to deny the inerrancy of the Scriptures and especially those passages that deal with the final demise of those who do not accept Christ as Savior prior to their physical death.
believer - Yes, I went to that website. I also looked up what Christian Universalism is. The two peach the same message. The authors of such thought have no understanding of the Word of God and they preach a different gospel.
star2, I agree with you as well the bottomline is is that the person is not in a right relationship with God and needs to be asking why have I lost that burden or did I ever have that burden. Have you been back to the Louisiana site, I went to a website viking recommended and I discovered some interesting information, the site is tentmakers.org
believer
Another reason, and it is a big one, is unforgiveness towards man and/or towards God.
believer
Re:once again a lack of tha burden could also indicate no real conversion has taken place.
I agree that a lack of conversion could be the problem. However, it is not always the problem. Their problem lies in the fact that they allowed sin to enter into their life. They disobeyed God at some point in their walk with God, didn't repent, and went into a wilderness experience. Wilderness experiences have a tendency to destroy a believer's relationship with God if he/she is stiffnecked. Over time a believer will lose their burden for the lost (if they had it to begin with) and the things of God.
Sin brings forth death.
Believers, whose lives have shown forth the regeneration of the Holy Ghost upon receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior, who is stiffnecked at times, and now is living in rebellion against God needs prayer that perhaps God will give them the grace to repent. And once grace is received for repentance that they will surrender.
believer
Re:one thing I would add that is desperately needed in the church today, a hunger for God's burden for the lost
I agree. We need to pray that God will send forth laborers into the harvest.
Luke 10: 1-9
1 After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 THREFORE SAID HE UNTO THEM, THE HAREVEST TRULY IS GREAT, BUT THE LABOURERS ARE FEW: PRAY YE THEREFORE THE LORD OF THE HARVEST, THAT HE WOULD SEND FORTH LABOURERS INTO HIS HARVEST.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
smbga, I agree many who profess to be believers lack a hunger for the Word of God which could be an indicator there has been no genuine conversion experience in that person's life, but one thing I would add that is desperately needed in the church today, a hunger for God's burden for the lost and once again a lack of tha burden could also indicate no real conversion has taken place. We have the only solution to the disease of lostness and the Church alone has been commissioned by God to deliver that solution to a lost and dying world.
the Truth of this matter is that no one wants the Word of God. We all go to church on Sunday because it's the thing to do. It's called tradition. Jesus himself spoke against tradition. We need to consecrate ourselves to living a pure holy life and hunger for His Word. That isn't going to happen unless we pray that God gives us a hunger and thirst for His Word. Not a bunch of junk from the pulpit.
star2, mathetes, logicshallprevail, you guys fought a good fight but unfortunately it appears that when your whole worldview is at risk some will use any means necessary to defend it. To be honest I'm more concerned with those who claim to be one of us. You see if we are wrong about our view we turn out to be a bunch of dumb Christians but if their view is wrong they are not only dumb Christians they are guilty of aiding and abetting in the eternal demise of who knows hundreds of thousands of people because their view of evolution was paramount in their belief that their is no God and therefore no need to be saved. So I guess for me when push comes to shove I'm comfortable being a dumb Christian on this one. Once again good job and hope to blog you soon, be blessed as you serve Him, believer
There is a famine of the Word of God today. It is a tragedy, but the Word of God is not spoken anymore. Preachers are preaching what the people want to hear to make them feel good and to appease their flesh.
Many people think God is sending you to hell because of your disbelief. Moses said you ye this day whom you will serve. You choose, now to be apart from God is not to know Him or what anything to do with Him. There are only two places to choose, heaven or hell. God longs that no man should perish. However if you choose to be apart from God, He has no choice when you are before Him but forefill your desire. You can't change your mind when it comes to the time of judgment. Judgment is the time when the Judge decieve; The plantiff has has plenty of time to make his case based on the law. Like lawyers, we should know the law as to decide to obey or not. So if you have the power to choose, why are you blaming God?
I am not sure why someone flagged me, when I actually know Mark Driscoll. I attended his church about fiver years ago before thinking I wanted to be in Seminary. I am currently in Seminary and Thank God for all the Pastors who taught me sound Christian doctrine.
I simply stated that while Mark is very conservative morally which is great, that he has earned himself a very poor reputation in Seattle for caustic remarks against fellow Christians. Mark has constantly engendered poor relationships in the Mainline Protestant community here in Seattle acting like if you don't accept his teachings of Scripture then you are wrong, not him. For a church that is relatively new, his sardonic attitude towards mainline churches that have been in Seattle for 100+ years is unfortunate and his hubris is beyond compare.
While doctrine is key to foundational Christian theology, Mark Driscoll only offers his way of interpretation. Mark's way or the highway is the picture I hope to paint, which is fact and not calumny.
For those who think that the teaching of biblical doctrine is unimportant please visit the recent evolution articles and especially pay attention to those who claim to be believers and for the most part reject the Bible account of Creation. It is so sad to see how biblically illiterate so many believers are. This is why we need to teach Christians not only what the Bible teachs, but how to take the truths of God's Word and apply them to our daily living.
I am with Believer and Star2 on this one!
Many blessings.
believer - He only presents the evolution view.
believer - He has never made an appearance. He made two videos himself. They traced the history of ape-human like skulls fossil finds. He did a good job on it. He sincererly believes in evolution but you know that can change because all things are possible with God.
star2, went to youtube, does he ever make an appearance or just post other people from his point of view, needless to say I noticed he doesn't present anyone from the opposing view or at least I did not see any, believer
Jesus4him, the only problem I have with some of these articles is they some times use too wide a brush. There are some churches that either by their own choice or by the perception of others have been labeled as emerging churches. Yet they are solid Bible believing, Bible teaching, and Bible living churches and they are being used of God to both bring people to Christ and discipling them to wholeheartedly follow Christ. I personally do not like a lot of the things I see going on or permitted to go on in emergent churches and I do agree as a result many of their members are not being solidly planted in the Word of God and as a result not living very godly and holy lives.
fullgospel, I need to correct myself the only exception to using books or articles that either contradict, compromise, and/or violate the Word of God would be if the preacher or teacher is showing just that and how we as believers need to respond to those contradicitons, compromises, and/or violations as well as how to approach those who adhere to those false views.
fullgospel, we need teachers and preachers who have a paasion for not only what they present but for who they present it to, we don't need wishy-washy preaching or teaching, but their authority must come from Christ working through them by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in them by both using and seeing the Bible as the only authoritative and inerrant Word of God. I have no problem with the use of other books or articles as long as they are only seen as supplementary at best and in no way, shape, or form contradict, compromise, or violate God's Word.
If anyone would like to see what postmodern heresy and the seeker friendly movement is doing to the Body of Christ, please log on to the following articles. It may shed some light on what is occurring in the end times which we live.
"The Emerging Church: Last Days Apostasy and a Return To Darkness" - found at: http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c29.shtml
"How to Know When the Emerging Church Shows Signs of Emerging in Your Church" - found at: http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c54.shtml
"The Inclusive Gospel" - found at: http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c66.shtml
"Is Apostasy Possible" - found at: http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c39.shtm
Ms shooter38
Your dissatifaction is not with Church but with your own life with God. Get your eyes off of man and get your eyes on Jesus. Repent and make Jesus Christ the Lord of your life. Walk in obedience to Him and He will fulfil the desires of your heart.
The thing that's interesting is that if we're trying to assert that the Bible is our only authority, it doesn't say "these are the fundamentals and these are not." That's 100% within the realm of the opinions of those who read the Bible. So, it raises the question "don't we need authoritatitive teachers who can say with certainty what the Bible means?" But that tends to undermine point #1.
For my part, I believe that Jesus founded a Church that the gates of hell never prevailed against, and one of the gifts of that Church is the ability to teach authoritatively. One could view it as doctrine; others could view it as Jesus speaking through His Church. The latter is just more logical to me.
Jesus4me, great job in presenting the plan of salvation, the importance of discipleship and what Christianity is all about, I too prefer the KISS approach to presenting the Gospel, be blessed as you serve Him, believer
This will be my last post on this subject.
First-- shooter38 is a she not a he:)
Second--Please check this website www.lifestresm.org
True Christianity is not about attending a particular church, or how your parents raised you, or what country you were born in. Being a Christian means that you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, that He is your Savior. It's not good enough that your priest, pastor, mother, or aunt knows Jesus, you must know Him for yourself. They cannot believe in Him for you, you must believe for yourself. They cannot repent for you, you must repent for yourself.
Jesus is everywhere all the time. He can hear you now if you ask Him for forgiveness. Please turn your life over to Him now. Time slips by so quickly, don't miss this opportunity. If you want to pray and ask Jesus to be your Savior, you can say a prayer something like this:
"Jesus, I know that I have sinned against you. I know the truth is that I have sinned by my own choice, and I am the one responsible for it. I know that I have earned punishment from You, and that the fair punishment would be death. Jesus, I believe that You died in my place. Forgive me for my sin. I cannot cover or take my sin away, I am relying totally and only on You. You are the only one who can save me. I reject my sin, I turn away from it, I repent. Come into my life, take away my sin, and show me how to live my life in a way that is right and pleasing to You."
If you have prayed this, you are saved! You are now completely forgiven, a new creation, innocent in the eyes of God. Welcome to the family of God!
It is important for you to start to grow in your relationship with Jesus. Just like any relationship, you need to spend time with someone if you want to know them well. The way to know God is through the Bible. We have a few different Bible studies here that will help you get going. It's also important to find a church you can attend where they teach the Bible. This will allow you to talk with a pastor who will help explain questions you might have, and it will give you a chance to spend time with other Christians who can encourage you.
The Gospel Message:
The simple truth is that there is a God who created you and loves you very much. (Genesis 1:1) He gave us life and deserves our gratitude and love.
We, however, have chosen to disobey Him and sin against Him; all of us have done wrong and failed to do what is right. (Romans 3:23) We may not be more sinful than our neighbor, or we may be far worse than anyone we know, it does not matter. Either way, we are guilty before God. (1 John 1:8)
God is perfect, completely good, always right and fair. He cannot tolerate sin. He cannot simply overlook the fact that we have chosen to disobey Him. The Bible says "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) This means that the fair payment for our rebellion against God is death. It is the punishment that we deserve.
Jesus, the one and only Son of God, came to earth and lived a perfect sinless life. He was crucified even though He was completely innocent. He received the punishment that we deserved. He was the perfect sacrifice, He was put into our place and took on Himself the sentence of death that should have been ours. (Romans 5:8)
Jesus did not, however, remain dead. After three days, He rose from the grave and later ascended into heaven. He will return for all those who are trusting in Him as their Savior.
Jesus died for you. You can be saved by asking Him for forgiveness from your sins. If you are willing to repent of your sin, He is waiting to forgive you. It doesn't matter what you have done in the past, if you cry out to Jesus for forgiveness, He will not reject you. The word "repent" literally means "to turn away from." You need to look at your life, admit that you are a sinner, genuinely desire to turn your back on that sin, and ask Him to forgive you. If you do this, He promises to forgive you.
BTW: I quoted this o my previous statement, becaus there are some on the board who are dissatisfied with the curent trend in "institutional churches" so I have listed these to give a little bit of options for the believer(s) who is/are currently going thru this issue. Also, they may want to check out a local Calvary Chapel. I too was dissatisfied with institutional denomination(s); therefore, the Lord brought me into fellowship with Calvary Chapel. The Book by Book chapter by chapter, line by line reading of the Word of God on a weekly, monthly, and yearly basis has helped me tremendously in my walk with the Lord. If any of you want to attend solid Bible teaching churches, you can look on the web at http://www.calvarychapel.com/
i find it funny that a site that is specifically talking about sound doctrine has someone who has flaged my Jude chapter 1 passage speking specifically about what false doctrine does. Appearently that Book of the Bible hit a sour note with someone on the board who just doesn't like sound doctrine. I will say it again: if you want to hear fluffly stuff that is non scriptural or stuff that is pseudo scriptural mixed in with the wisdom of men (not of God), then turn on TBN, and liste to the "prosperity name it and claim it gospel", or the joel osteen happy motivational speaking man centered gospel, or attend a "purpose driven seminar"from rick warren himself, or lastly, listen to brian mclaren one of the founders of the emergent church movement. in those you will find TONS of FLUFFY Christianity, and flat out heresy. But, if you trully want to learn and grow i the Word of God, you must be taught, and or discipled (as the Scripture defines the term) in a Bible teaching movement/denomination/ house church/Home Bible Study/Underground Church/Crusade/ Evangelistic Outreach/Body of Beleievers. Otherwise, you will do to yourself a great injustice, and in the meanwhile be feedig yourself poison. The Word of God is to be taken in it's entirety and applied to one's life in context. There is way to much false doctrine being taught nowadays. No wonder some people are dissatisfied wit Churches. However, having said this, just cause one is in a family with problems, or is disfunctional, or needs work, doesn't mean one bails out, and throws the Baby out with the bath water. As long as where one is being taught, is a place that teaches sound doctrine in context, then one ca grow from a defenseless baby Christian to one who can put on the Whole armor of God daily and join the spiritual battle that all of us are in; rathr than be on the sidelines watching.
star2, no I'm not Sean Penn, but I do like Pizza, Ha! Have a greta Memorial Day and Praise God that we serve the greatest Hero of all who paid the greatest sacrifice of all!!
believer - are your initials SP?
star2, did not get e-mail, believer
all God's children should be keepers of the Truth because God lives in you. willing to defend the Faith With Scripture, Just like Jesus did. Truth against Lies. Truth always wins , when light shines the darkness runs! Satan and man make many accusations against God and his Son but Jesus fully manifested his Father on earth, left nothing out, so all can see the Father. All accusations have been proven false and not valid! God is Righteous and satan and mans attacks are worthless.
star2, at my wife's computer will check mine in morning, thanks and good night.
believer
BTW, ERVs is the guy I told you about who keeps changing his name all the time.
believer - Now, now, old? No, I am a 59 soon to be 60 yr young female.
Glad to hear your service went well. The body of Christ needs to hear that kind of message.
Yes, I have been to that website. Karl Priest of that website is the Karl who made the post on CP.
Re:I did see that but like I said it's kind of scary how similar they are when it comes to their haughty attitudes toward those who disagree.
If you go to some of the evolution websites, you'll find the same haughty attitude plus the same kind of speech towards Christians as they have.
I think I know who you are. I sent you an email, did you get it?
star2, if you haven't already check out the website Karl put up, lifescienceprize.org I found it very informative and an easy read compared to similar sites.
star2, I did see that but like I said it's kind of scary how similar they are when it comes to their haughty attitudes toward those who disagree. Service went well, I spoke to the issue of what a truly revived local church looks like it was dealing with the three Ts of stewardship, time, talent, and treasure thanks for asking and have a blessed week, I'm glad to see I'm not the only old geezer out here.
believer
In case you didn't see it on a different thread:
ERVs is not agentorangex. agentorange has never changed his name other than the ending part of it. At first he was agentorange, then agentorange20, and now agentorangex. For some reason CP denied him access under his name so he signed back on with a different ending to his name.
believer
How did your service go tonight?
star2, thanks and I'll give it a shot.
believer
Visit agentorange's YouTube web page http://youtube.com/user/agentorange20, it might give you a little better understanding of him.
eahaddix
Re:star2: “You will not find a perfect Church . . .”
Strawman, star2. Nobody who holds the opposing viewpoint on this comment thread has stated that they will attend no “church” except a perfect “church.”
shooter38 was complaining that the Churches he attended were steepted in tradition, didn't teach sound doctrine, and the folks seemed to be concerned with shallow things like what you wear to church, do you show up on time, etc. He was even dissatisfied with house churches. He isn't happy anywhere because the Churches somehow don't meet his expectations of what a Church should be; the Churches are imperfect. shooter38 leads one to believe that he will not attend Church because they are imperfect.
eahaddix
Please define what an instutional Church is to you.
eahaddix
star2: “However, I pray about where God would have me go. He leads me to a Church of His choosing.”
But how do you differentiate between divine leadings and self-leading?
BTW, the fact that YHVH El the Spirit may direct you to attend a local institutional “church” does not mean that YHVH El the Spirit will direct others to attend a local institutional “church” as well.
God taught me to seek Him in where He wanted me to worship Him. When I share this with others and they also seek God in where He wants them to worship Him, He answers them. Like me, they were not disappointed in God's selection.
It is important to God where you worship Him. It is God's will that you worship Him where He wants you to. According to God's Word, if you ask Him accordiong to His will He will answer. (1 John 5:14-15).
"Your Will Lord Jesus not mine be done."
gotta submit completely , there is no half-way. Thats when you can really call Jesus the Lord OVER your life. No one else can be.
eahaddix
God is present in the individual Church as well. It is important to God where you worship. Where you worship God boils down to the Lorship of Jesus Christ. Is His will important to you?
At least i want to know the Truth of it all. I love the Truth. Nothing rocks like it! Jesus is Lord, baby!
ok why do we want to know anyways? I guess we are made that way to want to know the Truth.
I think the number one stumper of all time is: WHO SHOT J.R.?
And no i did not , i was at home inventing the internet , in my spare time, in my garage. Al Gore just stole that idea form me. Well he did!!
star2, thanks for the info, but the way they both so rudely and so arrogantly dismiss any view or scientific data that disagrees or challenges on evolution is almost identical it's almost scary.
Jude 1 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Jude 1
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
To those who are called, sanctified[a] by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.
Contend for the Faith
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Old and New Apostates
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Apostates Depraved and Doomed
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
who flagged my Book of Jude quotation? Did the Word of God so convict you that you have become like those who like their ears tickled by false teachers and heretics???????? I say to you; whoever you are...choose you this day whom you will serve. You have read and heard the Word of God, and have chosen to flag it. You have not offend me. I am just the messenger. The truth must be procalimed in love; at all costs, for too much is at hand. Men's souls are in danger of eternal separatio from God, and I pray that the Lord would give me the love, as well as the boldness to proclaim is Truth without compromise to those around me. Lord Help all of us in the Body of Christ to hold your Word in the highest regard, for it is Your Truth for mankind.
Nowaday's the problem seems to be that of secularism/moral relativism getting into the Body of Christ. It is a horrible trend in post modern times where the Body of Christ has actually strayed from God's Word as the ultimate authority on matters of life, society and Christian living, and rather chooses to proclaim a liberal/watered down carnal message that says ....."don't offend"...."don't preach things that offend or are abrasive, because if you do, you'll lose on numbers".....or, "go ahead and preach fluffy free grace Christianity that does not balance out the Scriptures by going thru the whole counsel of God." This is why we have so mmany baby Christians, as well as Carnal Christians, and some non Christians who think they are Christians. Many of the "mega churches" today have erred, because they are putting on a mutli media presentation with all the high tech gadgets with tremendous worship on stage, but then after a huge worship presentation, then they have a topical teaching on "how to be a better you"....or "how you can be rich"....all the while, no meat of te Word is being preached; they are not feeding the sheep as Christ would have a pastor do. See, feeding means that the flock has to eat it's vegetables, and the liver, because it's good for them, and will help them grow. Today we have huge congregations with people who trully have no clue what it is to repent, follow Christ, and make Him Lord of their lives. Rather, people want to hear..."well, it's ok if i continue to live in sin, because the grace of God is suficient heh?", or "i went up front on an alter call 10 years ago, and i live how i want, but I got fire insurance, cause i let Jesus into my heart, so I can live however i want; i can neglect God's Word (His written Will for mankind), and just basically hang on to my past, cause I'm covered." .....or, they'll tell you..."i went to private school and read the Bible a couple of times...my grandma was a sunday school teacher, and my dad was a preacher, and i'm ok"........... People who think like this are so in error, cause the grace of God extends to all men and mets them just where they are in life. However, it came a cost - Jesus shed His Blood for our sins so that we would turn our backs on sin, repent, and choose to follow Christ; if we love Jesus, and we turned our backs on the old man because it reaped corruption, how are we now going to willfully and without care just relentlessly go out and live in the world and expect God to be pleased with us????????.........I would have those who believe and teach this to go to the Book of Romans, and some of the latter epistles; even better yet, that they read the WHole Word of God and get to know God for real.
Amen, Daniel Paul.
Jude 1 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Jude 1
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
To those who are called, sanctified[a] by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.
Contend for the Faith
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Old and New Apostates
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Apostates Depraved and Doomed
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
Shooter38, many people who leave the church who are not believers use the same arguements. It is true that people don't know how to follow Jesus. Being disconnected from the body isn't healthy.
I left organized religion myself but still go to church! Jesus went to the temple to be an example. As I learn more about being a Christian (which after 35 years there is still much to learn) the more I can be an example. Just because someone has a disfuntional family doesn't mean they should just walk away from it. Be the one who does the right thing. Be the one who shows the example of what it means to serve God humbly as you serve others. How can they learn if no one teaches them. Those of us who see the problems are the ones with the insight to teach.
shooter38
What do you think Church should be? How should it behave itself so as to not be 'organized religion'?
shooter38
Re:You won't understand where I'm coming from until you walk in my shoes.
How do you know that I haven't walked in your shoes? Why don't you tell me what your problem is.
believer
There is only one person that I know that takes on many different names. I have used 2 other names because my posts were being flagged too many times for no reason other than who I was (star2) and sometimes because my position rubbed someone wrong. I no longer use those names.
shooter38
Re:Spoken as one truly steeped in the mode of Organized Religion.
How can you say that? I counseled you according to the Word of God.
Your heart is not right with God.
Star2
Spoken as one truly steeped in the mode of Organized Religion. You won't understand where I'm coming from until you walk in my shoes.
shooter38
God's Word admonishes us to assemble ourselves together to worship God (Heb 10:25). God further says that He gives each believer gifts that are to be used to minister to the Church body and He places the believer in a Church according to His will (1 Cor 12:18). God's Word also says that if we pray according to His will He will hear us and will answer us(1 John 5:14-15).
You will not find a perfect Church. There will always be something about that Church you will not like. The people may not be as loving as you think they should be,you may have some doctrinal differences, the Pator may not be the best preacher, or whatever. However, that should not keep you from going to Church.
My main problem with Churches is doctrine. It is very hard to find a Church whose doctrine aligns itself with what I believe scriptures teaches. However, I pray about where God would have me go. He leads me to a Church of His choosing. I am always happy in the Church God leads me to even though I would not have selected the Church in the natural (on my own). God finds a place of service for me according to the gifts He gives me. He also blesses me through the membership of that Church with the gifts He has given them.
Do you really want to go to Church and worship God? Is God's will important to you? If yes, then I encourage you to seek God as to where He would have you go. He will answer you. God has done it many times for me and will do it again. I know He can and will do it for you.
Psalm 150:1 - "Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary..."
Hebrews 10:24-25:
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
1 Corinthians 12:18 - "But now hath God set the members evey one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him."
1 John 5:14-15
14nd this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
Believer, Been there done that. I do take exception to your questioning my status as a believer. This is exactly what I mean. You know nothing about me or what I've been through. But because of one paragraph you question whether I'm a " genuine born again believer". Again, we are so bogged in tradition even a house church takes on the trappings of OR because we don't know how to really follow Jesus.
shooter, please take what I'm saying as a challenge and not a cutdown, my own son shares some of your same concerns, but if you are a genuine born-again believer have you ever thought about starting a house church to minister to those who feel as you do, it may start as a Bible study and God may help you grow it into a house church that is effectively reaching those who feel they don't fit in. Apparently many other believers have similar concerns because house churches are on the rise throughout our nation.
We are so bogged down in our traditions that doctrine gets lost and we don't really know what it means to follow Jesus. One of the reasons I left organized religion is I read the bible myself, then looked around and couldn't find what I was reading anywhere. Jesus said others would know us by the love we had for one another. Like the pharisees we worry about what someone wares to church, if their on time for service, who is going to head up what program Jesus said LOVE ONE ANOTHER. and we don't have a clue.
star 2, are there a lot of bloggers on this site who have various id names it seems to me and I know I'm relatively a latecomer that I'm blogging to the same person with a new id name and I know you spoke to this once before, thanks and have a great Lord's Day as well, believer
Not too many Christians want to hear sound doctrine. Who wants to really hear that they have to make Jesus Christ Lord of their life, live godly in Christ Jesus, and serve God in word and deed?
danielpaul, some believe that baptism is part of the salvation experience but most believe that baptism is God's first command to the new believer. Baptism shows both the church and the world that they have become a Christian and want to follow Christ for the rest of their life. As far as ordination it is not so much man ordaining man as much as man affirming that God has called that person to a specific calling such as pastor or deacon. As far as discipleship I agree that the teachings of church doctrine not only need to be based on sound theology they also need to be presented in a manner that is both relative and applicable to assist the learner in living a Christ-like life. Doesn't it feel good to be in an uplifting dialogue as opposed to several other blogs we've visited recently. Have a great Lord's Day tomorrow!
The Bible talks about people lifting up for themselves teachers who tickle the ear. Our churches are full of these types. People who want to control their members rather than teach them how to be under the control of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, many of these churches are even old conservative churches.
The point is we need to get back to the basics. Many in our church of 7000 come from churches where doctrine was so confusing and spoken of using big theological words the common man has no knowledge of. Jesus never tried to prove how smart He was. People need discipleship not a theology course. Jesus made disciples by spending time with people. He developed friendships. He formed bonds. These things are so superficial in todays church that discipleship cannot take place. I think this is the point here.
Just food for thought...the Bible says Pastors are sent. It never says anything about being ordained by man. Isn't the blood of Jesus enough to save or must there be the work of baptism too? Isn't Baptism an effect of salvation?
As a footnote, I'm not familiar with Mars Hill except for the fact that I've heard of it.
Sound Doctrine? How can many differing "Christian" denominations all teaching SOUND DOCTRINE? My friends, what is considered sound doctrine in one church is considered HERESY in the other churches! Sound doctrine can be easily found in the teachings of Jesus, Paul, John, and Peter. Teachings that come into conflict with the teachings of these must be considered heresy. Teachings that do not point to Jesus as God are heretical. Teachings that point to ANY other way to a relationship with God than through Jesus are heretical. Teachings that reject the truth that Jesus died for the sins of every person are heretical. Teachings that promote God as the mass murderer who created most humans for the purpose of burning them forever in hell are heretical! Teachings that say we do not have to share our faith with every person we can until Jesus returns are heretical! Doctrines that say Jesus has already returned or that there is no millennial reign of Jesus in the future or that there is no rapture of the church ARE HERETICAL!!! AMEN?
Is Jesus Lord over your life, Have you submitted to his Authority and Sovereignty? I confess that Jesus is the Son of God.
Why is this a NEWS? Isn't 'sound doctrine' essential to every sermon? What else can be preached but the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ? God help these preachers to boldly proclaim the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ, uncompromised!!
Amen TerryH!
Law of God
http://polemos.net/Law%20of%20God.html
Jesus came to establish his Church.He walked on earth,Did many things to show his love and how his Church should be.Many followed him for something they had in need of,but few followed him that truly loved him.The Devil has always hated Jesus and always did things to try and destroy his teachings and his word that is written and sealed with his blood..Jesus said the gates of helll shall not prevail against the Church.They hated Jesus and his true followers all were beaten and killed for his name sake .Jesus said those that live Godly shall suffer persecutation for if they hated me they will hate you .Sinners dont like to be reminded how they are living today or Gods word to tell them they are sinners and are lost and on there way to hell.Devil has control of there lives and will stay that way till they preach truth and are set free.Acts;2 38 Repent and be Babtized in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of Sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost....I was preached truth and came out of my ungodly life and free from the devils hold on my life....I now teach Children,Sing.And witness for Jesus Christ today ...I was at one time lost and free because a preacher was called to preach the word of God so you can be free.........America turn back to God !!!!
cowboyfan 88,
you would do well to follow Christ's example in that when He Himself said, "I did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it." Christians adhere to the law because we are saved by grace, not to obtain salvation throught the law as it cannot be done apart from grace. This is sound doctrine.
"Some church leaders avoid the topic when preaching from the pulpit because it tends to divide."
This is true; it divides those who accept and proclaim explicitly sound biblical truth from those who preach a feel good/subjective/pluralistic message that is antagonistic to true Christianity.
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears" - 2Timothy 4:3.
What does being a fundamentalist have to do with smoking and tattoo's? People don't have a clue what sound doctrine is. Just as in water baptism. That was Israel's program under the law. We are under grace. Gentiles were not under the law of Moses. We have been baptized by the Holy Spirit. Paul says there is only one baptism and that is into Christ when we believe the gospel. And most people in church don't even know what the gospel is. We as the body of Christ are ignorant of scripture.
I know Pastor Driscol and I am not a fan at all.
While i like the fact he is morally very conservative he is extremely liberal in his interpretation of doctrine, so I think it is rather ironic he would be teaching this seminar in church.
His church is extremely "Seeker Friendly". He believes in the Bible alone, but as long as you agree with his interpretation. He believes in faith alone, but has his Mark Driscol caveats on what that means.
Baptism: He doesn't think it is needed even if it is an ordinance.
Communion: Every once in a while and they throw the extra bread in the garbage after. Isn't that a little sacrilege even if it is a symbol of Christ?
He doesn't believe there is any such thing as Ordinations of Pastors. He doesn't believe that the laying of hands confers anything.
Mars Hill represents a lone wolf church, where Mark Driscol goes by the Bible alone but if you don't agree with his INFALLIBLE interpretation then God help you with his personality. He constantly bad mouths other denominations especially mainline Protestants and now can no longer speak at Seattle Pacific University, a Christian university, because of his views.
Walking into to his Church if you can call it that is like walking into Alternative Rock concert where a Church service broke out.
A link to this article has been posted on the website GoodNewsNow.com.
Amen! Great article! Sound doctrine is one of the most needful things in our churches today.
I have read posts on another site where four different "believers" contradict the very teachings on baptisim and three out of four believe "works" are necessary for salvation(?). Commentaries by sound preachers/teachers are helpful for ones spiritual growth, but that growth begins with a foundation of faith based on sound Biblical doctrines.
Yup - teaching sound doctrine is a sure way to separate the sheep from the goats and make it obvious which of those in the pews are only "playing Christian".
All Christians need to get back to reading the Bible instead of the commentaries and self-help books. We need to allow the Holy Spirit to work on us through His word!
In this day and age it is imperative that believers be grounded in the Word of God. There are too many believers out there who couldn't defend their faith if their life depended on it. As a result they are setting themselves to be duped by the cults and secular humanism and as result their Christian witness and testimony is neutralized and/or compromised. Kudos to Pastor Mark and may many other Christian pastors and leaders follow his courageous example in teaching sound biblical doctrine to their congregations. I also believe that the teaching of sound doctrine will reveal to some members that even though they are a member of the church based on these lessons/messages they've never had a genuine conversion experience and get truly saved as a result. The teaching of sound doctrine is not only biblical it's a win win situation for everybody involved but most importantly the cause of Christ and the fulfillment of God's Great Commission.