Leading up to the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)'s biannual General Assembly next month, Presbyterians are evenly divided on the highly controversial issue of homosexual ordination, which is expected to hit the debate floor again.
This year, 22 proposals have been submitted by presbyteries regarding the church's sexual standards for ordination. Eleven of them support the current ban on practicing homosexuals and 11 oppose it.
While most of the overtures opposing the ban would scrap it from the church's constitution, some propose amendments that would at least soften the language of the ordination standard – which currently requires "fidelity in marriage between a man and a woman" or "chastity in singleness."
The PC(USA) is one of many Protestant denominations wrestling with the issue of homosexuality. Last month, emotional debates broke out at the United Methodist Church's quadrennial meeting. Much to the dismay of pro-gay members, the General Conference of the United Methodist Church voted against changes to its ban on noncelibate gay pastors and its stance that homosexual practice is "incompatible with Christian teaching."
On June 21, leaders of the 2.3-million member PC(USA) will convene in San Jose, Calif., to review similar proposals for change. The 2008 assembly follows a controversial decision made in 2006 by the General Assembly – the highest governing body of the church – to adopt an "authoritative interpretation" of the ordination standard. Many believed the decision gave leeway to local and regional governing bodies to ordain practicing gay ministers.
Earlier this year, however, the General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission – PC(USA)'s highest court – ruled in local cases that candidates for ordination must follow the "fidelity and chastity" standard. The rulings were made when San Francisco Presbytery attempted to ordain a sexually active lesbian candidate and Twin Cities Area Presbytery tried to restore the ordination of a gay former minister.
Some in the denomination view the rulings as wide-sweeping and have hope the church is not heading further in a liberal direction.
But realizing the challenges they will continue to face, six presbyteries have proposed this year to toughen the language in the constitution to make clear that sexually active gays and lesbians cannot be ordained.
The 218th General Assembly is scheduled for June 21-28. Other top issues that are expected to be addressed include a revised Form of Government, or polity, that would be more flexible; the church's ecumenical stance with four other denominations; and strengthening the PC(USA)'s witness to peace with justice in relation to Israel/Palestine and Iraq. Commissioners will also be electing a new stated clerk to succeed the Rev. Clifton Kirkpatrick, who served three four-year terms.
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just because Jesus is compassionate and accepting of us in all our faults, he would not accept an open non celibate homosexual to preach His Kingdom. Jesus said a man shall leave his mother and father and cleave unto his WIFE and the two shall be one flesh. in the beginning God created adam and eve not adam and steve.
I am so disappointed to read some of the comments on this board. I'd like to think that we all live in the present century and we all know enough about biology to know that to condemn homosexuality as a sin is absolutely ridiculous. I've seen statements here saying that the bible is very clear in that it is a sin but it seems to me that if we take biblical text out of the context of the times in which they were written or even the context of the intended message, then we are merely parsing the text to support our own prejudices.
Presbyterians ought to be leaders in civil rights issues and this is clearly a civil rights issue.
I do not see how anyone can stand by and allow the church to be supportive of banning gays from ordination anymore than i can see how anyone could ever have used scripture to defend slavery.
Let's get down to the basics. Paul wrote that a person in leadership (pastors aand deacons or elders) must first of all BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. Paul also related that when believers commit sinful acts, they are literally forcing the Holy Spirit to take part in their sinful acts. Do the Presbyterians believe that the Holy Spirit is not grieved by being involved in a homosexual act? Do Presbyterians even believe that the Holy Spirit is who the Bible says He is? Homosexual activity is no worse than other sinful acts. They all are against the Holy Spirit when committed by believers. If their sinful activities constitute their lifestyle, they are perpetual sinners and therefore NOT filled with the Holy Spirit!!! Does everyone understand?
Let's talk basics. Paul wrote that church leaders (Pastors and deacons) must be above all else FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT!
IHS
I would like to believe that a person who is homosexual, or any other sin for that matter, would be able to live out their service for the Lord, and take up their cross with celibacy of whatever the sin may be. But just as Peter could not keep his eyes on Jesus the whole time he was walking on water, I contended that all of us will, during moments of fatigue or weakness, give in to our vices. In my case, it might be overeating or ungodly busyness, for the homosexual, it would be thoughts or acts that God's Word defines as an abomination.
I'm not mad at any homosexual person, but none of us on this earth have achieved 100% success over our struggles...as the hymn says, we are prone to wonder. When the sin surfaces, does it destroy the church? My overeating is destructive, but will not have the same effect as a homosexual minister falling into his sin.
Please share your thoughts....
In my brief time in Seminary I've learned that everyone says they are Bible based, but it is amazing to me how many Bible believing Christians could get this wrong. Homosexual activity is a sin. Being a homosexual is not a sin if you have this same sex attraction, but you must carry your cross and remain celibate the rest of your life. It is better to cut off an appendage, then allow that hand or foot lead you into hell.
All Christians who claim they go by the Bible, should be 100% on their morals. How can there be division now on morals? How can people not know what is right or wrong? Where is our leadership?
While in college, I attended a presbyterian church several times that I thought was very biblical, and the services were very meaningful. I cannot make any absolute statements about presbyterian churches, though, nor about any church denomination for that matter. What I can say absolute is that I believe God's Word, whether it be issues that relate to my experiences, like sex with a woman before marriage, or issues that I can't relate to, homosexual relationships.
Either God's Word is completely true, or it is not. If you disagree, then what is your higher revelation? All I know about God is from His word. My experiences make His word more real to me, but my experiences do not contradict the Bible. If the Bible says it is wrong, then it is wrong.
I imagine that the presbyterian church's biggest issue isn't whether or not their leadership are practicing homosexuals, but the issue of homosexuality in general. Is it sin or not? If it is sin, how can a homosexual, whether practicing or not, be in leadership? I would disagree with my church having a homosexual leader, because I think it is a sin.
But I believe we as Christians should have a monopoly on "real" Christ-like love, which means we must do a lot of praying for these major presbyterian concerns.
jst1ofHissheep,
How would Jesus vote? I think he would vote for compassion, acceptance and love so he would be in favor of non-celibate gay ordination.
Presbyterians DO take God's Word seriously. You've been to a Presbyterian service, right? So you know that this is true.
Luke 13:23-24
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
appears to me that there aren't very many who are truly in 'the kingdom'
Christians are "Little Christs." They are in the process of continually growing in Christlikeness. Paul said, "We do not know what we will be like (in heaven), but we know that when He (Jesus) comes, we shall be like Him." When we see a group of people who claim to be Chrisrlike acting in opposition to the commands of Jesus, we can "judge" them by their actions and their fruit as being anti-Christian. Those who are conforming to the ways of the world instead of being transformed by the Word of God (Jesus) are acting apart from the leadership of the Holy Spirit. As believers we are not even to have a meal (fellowship) with them. For me it is interesting that some Presbyterians have a problem with ordaining homosexuals but have no problem labelling God as the greatest mass-murderer of all (double predestinatiion)!
If they would read their Bible, they would not be divided! God made it very plain that homosexuality is a sin.
jst1ofHissheep
Re:I just wonder how Jesus would vote??? Perhaps the Presbyterian Church should take that into account.
They as well as all denominations who are like minded are not the least bit interested in how Jesus would vote. He has already casted His vote by what He says in His Word yet they choose to ignore it. But they will give an account for it on judgment day.
I just wonder how Jesus would vote??? Perhaps the Presbyterian Church should take that into account. I would not want to be a part of any church that does not take the written word seriously. This issue is not something that God left vague. It is very clear what His wishes are in this area.
The Emerging Church: Last Days Apostasy and a Return To Darkness" - found at: http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c29.shtml
"How to Know When the Emerging Church Shows Signs of Emerging in Your Church" - found at: http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c54.shtml
"The Inclusive Gospel" - found at: http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c66.shtml
I meant "disgrace" not grace. See what happens when you get tired.
Did anyone see the irony in this article? It said Presbyterians are split on this topic. When I was in seminary which was a Presbyterian Seminary, we nicknamed ourselves Split P's because of how many different strands of Presbyterians there are in doctrine and morals. We made fun of ourselves back in the 80's, but this is scary stuff.
How can you be split on this subject. Homosexual activity is a grace and immoral sin. Jesus is going to split us up in the end days when he sepparates the goat from the sheep. I don't think you should be wrong on the moral side of the equation or you might be a goat.
I'd rather be unpopular here on Earth, then suffer damnation after I die. We are all going to be judged for what we did on earth. Seek Christ, repent and be faithful to the commandments and by Grace you will be saved. If your heart is truly sorry God will forgive you. He's waiting.
kevin82: Hear hear. I think what these Presbyterians seem to be missing is that there is a certain threshold of orthodox Christian tenets that must be observed in order to be considered "Christian" at all. That homosexuality is a sin against God is bedrock, not a point of doctrine that we can debate back and forth.
One group is holding onto the truth, the other slipping on the banana peel. Love those who are decieved, but not what they are doing. It just adds one more problem to the church. Why? Because in that case, we are dealing with a spirit. I know what some of you are thinking, but
as a leader in the church, I have witnessed it over and over.
This (and similar discussions within the mainline) will be decisive for the continuation of the PCUSA as a Christian church. If they adopt a pagan sexual anthropology, they will have cut themselves, in pride and arrogance, from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
I really praying for this country and the issue this country is facing. Let us not greeving God's heart. I pray that the darkness be removed from this country.