The first openly gay Episcopal bishop and his partner of 20 years have been united in a private civil union.
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(Photo: AP Images / Episcopal Dioceses of New Hampshire)In this photo released by the Episcopal Dioceses of New Hampshire, Mark Andrew, left, and Bishop V. Gene Robinson are shown during their private civil union ceremony performed by Ronna Wise in Concord, N.H., Saturday June 7, 2008. The New Hampshire legislature and governor made civil unions legal in New Hampshire beginning Jan. 1, 2008.
The Rt. Rev. V. Gene Robinson was legally joined to Mark Andrew, his partner of 20 years, in a civil ceremony Saturday, the Episcopal Diocese of New Hampshire announced.
Civil unions became legal in New Hampshire this year.
The union was performed five years to the day after New Hampshire Episcopalians elected him as their bishop.
The civil and a following religious service of thanksgiving were both held at St. Paul's Church in Concord.
Robinson had made public his intention to join his partner, but had kept the date secret out of concern about security. Spokesman Mike Barwell said the ceremony was intentionally private.
"Initially, the idea was to have it in a public building to make clear it was a public civil ceremony and a private thanksgiving ceremony," Barwell said Sunday.
The plan changed out of respect for next month's worldwide Anglican church conference in England, called the Lambeth Conference, and out of concern for the couple's security.
Robinson had announced in March that he would have no official role in that conference, saying restrictions that organizers wanted to place on his involvement had caused him "considerable pain."
Robinson was told last year that he could not fully participate in the once-a-decade gathering in England as the world Anglican Communion has been on the brink of schism over his 2003 election. Conservative Anglicans worldwide have denounced his consecration and called for repentance.
The civil union was performed by Ronna Wise, a longtime friend and justice of the peace. About 120 family and close friends attended.
Robinson and Andrew decided to enter the union before Robinson's trip to ensure they have legal protections New Hampshire's civil union law gives gay couples. The law bestows all the rights and responsibilities of marriage, which includes inheritance and other rights enjoyed by married couples.
Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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Thankyou for these amazing posts. It has been a while since I logged on, but I send my greetings and God's blessings to each and every one of you. Thanks for your thoughts and opinions. They are to be respected. I pray for each and every one of you and have faith in the true God to lead you into the real Truth.
Amen, Robbie. xxxxxxxx
irenaeus, I took the challenge and you can find it at the same-sex marriage rush site, good to see you back and looking forward to getting back to our discussion, I have really been enjoying it and it has truly challenged me to dig deeper in His Word. Be blessed as you serve Him, believer
biggie,
Is this a set up? BTW, there is a difference between someone who takes the Bible literally and one who takes it literalistically.
Hi Fellow Believers!
Who here says every word in the Bible is true? Who here endorses 100% of the Bible, every statement as the wishes of God! If in the Bible, I can find an "order" of God, and if you do NOT 100% execute it, I consider you literalists to have LOST.
Who here takes my challenge? Is there a soul here in this room that agrees 100% with every phrase and statement in the Bible? And will there be NOTHING I can find thats a commandment in the Bible that you not 100% completely agree with?
This ought to be interesting. Any takers?
believer,
"but I still hate cleaning out the cat poop box!"
LOL
ireneaus, I not only appreciate your honesty as a husband I also empathize with you totally and I'll be honest there are times when I lose sight of why I need to do things simply out of love for my wife and there are times when I take the things she does for me for granted, but when God gets me refocused on what's important not only do I desire to do the right thing but it sure makes our marriage and relationship a whole lot better, but I still hate cleaning out the cat poop box!
ireneaus, I didn't scroll enough to see some of your responses to me, but on the reference to Matthew 19:17 I believe you need to keep it in the context of the encounter He was having with the rich young ruler. Because the conclusion was that even though he had kept all the commands he allowed his riches to get between him and God. At that point in his life he loved his wealth more than he loved God even though he was keeping all the commands of the Law and because at that point in his life he was unwilling to let go of his love for his wealth he walked away from Christ. So I believe Jesus was showing not only this young man but all of us that salvation is not about works, but rather salvation is a matter of the heart and once we accept Him as our Savior and Lord our motivation to do good works will be a result of our desire to please God and show Him how much we love and worship Him.
ireneaus, I think you just answered your own question in your respose to Prophet, you said good works done for the wrong motive would be rejected. So the question would be what does God's Word say is the only right motive for doing good works? Jesus said that if you love Me, you'll keep/obey my commands, would you not agree that the doing of good works would be just that? That being the case then the only right motive for us doing good works is to show God that we love Him. Romans 12:1 tells us that the most logical response for a person who is a child of God to the saving work of Christ in their life is to daily present themselves as a living sacrifice to God which is our spiritual worship, the desire of our heart. Both the words of Christ and Paul speak to those of us who have already come to know Christ as Savior and Lord, they are a result of our salvation not a requirment for our salvation. Because if they were then we would not be obeying Christ out of love alone but at best also if not only out of obligation. I believe the same would be true if we say one can lose their salvation their obedience would not be out of love for Christ alone but at best also if not only out of obligation in order to stay saved.
Prophet,
"Yes, and Jesus Himself said there would be those who did good works in his name that would be cast into hell. So what's the verdict? "
But he also said that those who have done good would be welcomed into the kingdom of His Father. So what's the verdict?... as I have been saying all along, by faith are our works made pleasing and worthy of his acceptance. Through faith, our works are viewed through the 'eyes of grace'; i.e., works performed under the advocacy of God's grace. Works performed with a view of obligating God to reward us for them as if God is somehow indebted to us places us outside the system of grace and places us under the system of law where our works will be judged under the strict edicts of the law. That's the difference, for without faith, it is impossible to please God.
ire,
Yes, and Jesus Himself said there would be those who did good works in his name that would be cast into hell. So what's the verdict?
believer,
“The same is true in our relationship with Christ, He says if we LOVE Him we'll keep His commands, not if you really want to get saved you'll keep My commands.”
But Christ did say if you really want to get saved you'll keep My commands:
"But if you want to enter into life, keep the Commandments."(Matthew 19:17)
believer,
Oops,… you are correct, my 7:55 am message should have been addressed to Prophet. Either way, I accept your apology although I don’t know that it was necessary. BTW, your response at 7:57am was probably one of your best ones yet. But I would have to say that although you are correct that any particular act of kindness (such as giving flowers) is not required by obligation, there are many things (acts, works, behaviors) that are required because one has obligated himself through the marriage covenant. So while specifically giving flowers is not a requirement, on the whole of my married life, if I did not do various acts of kindness towards her, my marriage would not be very healthy, and in fact, may eventually suffer divorce. And among the various acts of kindness, there are specific things that are required. For example, I am obligated to remain faithful to her; that’s a work of obedience to the marriage covenant. Adultery, pornography, inappropriate relationships, unchaste entertainment, etc are contrary to that work of obedience to her and my marriage covenant. And while I am currently on a business trip, when I return, I cannot expect a reward for remaining faithful to her as if I earned it, right?… I’m sure my wife would be grateful, but I should simply say in the spirit of Luke 17:10 “I am but your unworthy husband. I have only done what was my duty to do.” However, on the whole, I will be rewarded for my faithful conduct through a stronger and healthier marriage.
Prophet,
You are correct that there are many, for example, who give to the poor, and for them it is merely a humanitarian act. So your point is well taken; however, with regard to spiritual works and physical works of servitude, by overlap I mean that they can often be the same thing. Giving alms to the poor can be both a spiritual work (e.g., love and concern for neighbor) and a physical work of servitude. As noted before concerning Cornelius, he was not yet saved, for he had not even heard or accepted the gospel; yet, his spiritual and physical works of servitude ascended to heaven as pleasing and acceptable to God.
ire,
There is no overlap of spiritual works and physical works. You can do works of servitude and yet not have the fruits of the spirit. BUT...you cannot truly have the fruits of the spirit and not do works of service. The fruits of the spirit will compell you to works of service, but works of service will not compel you to the fruit of the spirit.
robbie, thanks for helping me to refocus and not lose sight of what this is all about, be blessed as you serve Him, believer
ire, wrong guy on your 7:55 response that's prophet, but more importantly I wanted to offer you my sincere apology and ask your forgiveness for what I said about your mind being made up. I'm a very intense and passionate person and patience has always been something I'm not known for and this issue we're discussing is so important to the Christian faith. I've enjoyed our dialogue and look forward to continuing it, be blessed as you serve Him, believer.
ireanus, take the word necessary out of the equation for a moment. I don't know if you're married or not, but consider this I"m going to assume you're a guy. Do you do acts of kindness for your wife because that's a requirement of the marriage or because you love her. How would she feel if you told her I bought you those flowers because it's a requirement of marriage. The same is true in our relationship with Christ, He says if we LOVE Him we'll keep His commands, not if you really want to get saved you'll keep My commands, our works show Christ and the world that not only are we a child of God, but we love God more than anything or anyone else and our greatest desire is to do all we can do to please Him. The problem I see is that too many people see salvation as primarily about going to heaven and not going to hell and that is such a minor part of our salvation. Salvation is about having a personal and growing relationship with God through Christ for all eternity. It's not about us getting a "Get Out Of Hell Free Card" and I think their are many people who are going to be in for a rude awakening when they realize they have never been truly saved as a result. To me a person who is truly born-again has a burning passionate desire to live the rest of his life in a way that is truly pleasing to God not because he has to but that is the fervent desire of his heart. And considering what Christ did to make this relationship possible how could a person not have that desire.
believer,
“See, now you're getting over into what I said. Are you seeing the difference between works of the spirit and works of servitude?”
I think there is much overlap between spiritual works and physical works of servitude. And I’m not sure what you are getting at with regard to Matt 25’s judgment occurring after the seven year tribulation; regardless, this verdict of that judgment is based on physical works of servitude, and the verdict is whether one goes to heaven or eternal damnation.
I have already stated that without faith it is impossible to please God. So yes, none of these works, even the physical works of servitude are valuable, acceptable, and pleasing to God unless one cooperates with the grace of God and does them in faith – at least with an implicit faith. Remember Cornelius was not yet saved, for he had not even heard the gospel; yet, his spiritual and physical works of servitude ascended to heaven as pleasing and acceptable to God, and he hadn’t even accepted Jesus yet.
ireaneus, God's forgiveness for sin is available to anyone who will call on the name of the Lord because when Christ died He died for the forgiveness of all sin to include even the sins of those who will not repent. People will go to hell not because of their sins but because they refused to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. Their punishment in hell will be a result of their sins and the consequences of those sins. A person will go to heaven not because of their works but because they accepted Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, they will receive rewards in heaven based on their works done for God and with the right motive. The passages in John and Romans you referred to spoke of the issue of judging as opposed to the specific judgements the two major ones being the Judgement Seat of Christ where believers will have their works judged and the Great White Throne Judgement where unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire and receive their punishment according to their sins. So if a person accepts Christ they are not only become a child of God they also receive forgiveness for their sins. If a person rejects Christ not only do they not become a child of God they do not receive forgiveness for sins and they will be punished for them in hell for all eternity.
Prophet and Believer,
Ire is a sensitive person who is searching for Truth. May we all encourage Ire to continue on that journey and blessings to him/her. Let's join together in harnonious love and respect for one another as Christ told us to do, and show the world we are one in Jesus. We may differ on doctrine but agree that Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life and there is no other name under Heaven by which we must be saved. Amen.
ire,
You said "What if the person not only claims to be a Christian, but really is one, and later continues to willfully live in sin and refuse to repent from that sin or sinful lifestyle? Would this not fit any of the judgment scenes in scripture stating that they who have done evil will rise to condemnation?"
See, now you're getting over into what I said. Are you seeing the difference between works of the spirit and works of servitude?
Sin is a work of the spiriti/soul. Sevitude is the work of the physical.
I hope you see what I'm getting at.
If I feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, orphaned, and widow...and yet continue to live in sin how does that make me any different from the world. Even the world, for all it's evil, feeds the hungry, clothes the nake, and visits the sick, orphaned, and widow. But does the world work to be transformed by the renewing of their mind? Do they live Galatians 5:22-25? Do they live I Corinthians 13? Do they take up their cross daily and follow Christ? Do they offer up their bodies a living sacrifice? Those are works of the Spirit. And none, I mean absolutely NONE, of that can happen unless you are saved and have the power of the Holy Spirit as your strength.
believer,
"I'm coming to believe that our friend irenaeus has his mind made up so we best not confuse him with the Word of God, what's your take?"
My take is that you're being quite condescending, but that's just the perspective of an apparently carnal man. Listen guys, I have been quite open, clear, and respectful in asking my questions, and do not deserve a response such as that. If I state that a person who does good goes to heaven, and one who does evil goes to hell, you guys cry foul, yet this is precisely what Jn. 5:28-29 says. I have qualified my statements and have stated clearly that we are justified by faith, and that without faith it is impossible to please God. I have also stated quite clearly that I DO NOT believe that our works earn our salvation nor gains for us a claim to eternal life as if God is indebted to us. All I have stated is that scripture supports the necessity of works of obedience (i.e., good works) for salvation. This is also acknowledged by numerous conservative evangelical scholars. How or in what way are they necessary is what I’m trying to get my hands around, so please don't assume that I do not understand the things of the Spirit because we are not in agreement.
believer,
"If a person says they are a Christian yet they continue to willfully live in sin and they refuse to repent from that sin or sinful lifestyle they are still lost so if work is involved on our part it is the work of repenting from our sin and/or sinful lifestyle and accepting Christ as our Savior and Lord."
What if the person not only claims to be a Christian, but really is one, and later continues to willfully live in sin and refuse to repent from that sin or sinful lifestyle? Would this not fit any of the judgment scenes in scripture stating that they who have done evil will rise to condemnation?
"Unless you are saying that the work of Christ on Calvary was not totally sufficient for the remission of all sins past, present, and future."
I'm not claiming that Christ's death was not totally sufficient for the remission of all sins; however, Christ's death was not efficacious for unrepentant sins.
believer,
"the judgement you referred to from Matthew 25:31-46 is not the Great White Throne Judgement, this judgement occurs at the end of the seven year tribulation."
Only if one believes in dispensationalism. Also, what does that have to do with anything. Does this mean that this judgment does depend on works? Does Jn. 5:28-29 and Rom 2:5-8 occur at the end of the seven year tribulation?
I concur. Carnal man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.
prophet, I'm coming to believe that our friend irenaeus has his mind made up so we best not confuse him with the Word of God, what's your take?
I suppose that "barely saved" is a poor choice of words. You are saved, or not. But as much as you try to draw attention away from the truth, it still stares you in the face. Salvation is by faith in Christ's work on the Cross, not of our own works.
But that scripture is saying that you will be saved, but have no reward in heaven. And it also, again, demonstrates how salvation does not depend on works.
irenaeus, the judgement you referred to from Matthew 25:31-46 is not the Great White Throne Judgement, this judgement occurs at the end of the seven year tribulation.
irenaeus, but that's the problem works are not necessary for salvation nor will works keep you saved, when Christ said "it is finished" the work of salvation was complete and His Father affirmed that by renting the curtain which seperated man from the Holy of Holies from top to bottom letting us know that once again we had direct access to God and the only thing we need to do is by faith accept that truth by repenting of our sins and acknowledging Christ as our Savior and Lord. All that could or would be done was accomplished through the work of Christ on Calvary. If a person says they are a Christian yet they continue to willfully live in sin and they refuse to repent from that sin or sinful lifestyle they are still lost so if work is involved on our part it is the work of repenting from our sin and/or sinful lifestyle and accepting Christ as our Savior and Lord. Unless you are saying that the work of Christ on Calvary was not totally sufficient for the remission of all sins past, present, and future. And I don't know about you but the moment I was saved my name was sealed by the Holy Spirit in the Lamb's Book of Life for all eternity.
believer,
“you've changed horses in mid-stream on us, we were not discussing a person losing their salvation, but rather we were discussing works being a required part of the salvation process. As for one losing their salvation there are a number of Scriptures that teach that is not possible.”
Changed horses in midstream?… not at all. If the premise that works somehow are necessary for salvation, then obviously they can also be deemed as an issue for not attaining to salvation. And far from scripture attesting to the believer the impossibility of losing their salvation: every book in the NT, with the possible exception of Philemon, admonishes in very severe terms that Christians are to flee immorality or can forfeit salvation. But again, I want to be emphatic that I agree with you that we are justified by faith, and that without faith it is impossible to please God, but that does not preclude works of obedience from somehow being necessary for salvation.
“Paul declares in the Book of Romans that nothing can seperate us from the love of God, Jesus Himself declares that there is no one or nothing to include ourselves that can remove us from the hand of God.”
These verses are referring to external forces, and does not address the issue of what the outcome of the individual who persists in unrepentant sin.
Prophet,
"Be saved, but as though through the fire...meaning barely. So once again we see clearly that salvation is not hinged upon works"
How can one be 'barely' saved if works have absolutely nothing to do with salvation; i.e., if salvation does not hinge upon works?
Prophet,
“And I think it's uncool of you to state that wherever it says we are judged that it has to do with our salvation, even though it does not state in those verses that you quoted that it has anything to do with salvation.”
I think it’s rather uncool of you to refrain from being intellectually honest. So let’s try this again:
“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth; THOSE WHO HAVE DONE GOOD, TO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE, and THOSE WHO HAVE DONE EVIL, TO THE RESURRECTION OF CONDEMNATION.” (Jn. 5:28-29).
"But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For HE WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS: To THOSE WHO BY PATIENCE IN WELL-DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE; but FOR THOSE WHO ARE FACTIOUS AND DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, BUT OBEY WICKEDNESS, there will be WRATH AND FURY." (Rom 2:5-8).
How can you possibly say that these verses do not have anything to do with salvation, when the whole point of the verse is precisely about salvation, and specifically to contrast between those to attain it and those who do not? And certainly, Matt 12:36-37 is not merely referring to personal rewards. I know that you have already claimed that Matt 16:27 is referring to personal rewards, yet as stated previously, the first part of this verse is nearly identical to Matt 25:31 where it states that the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, and will sit on his throne to judge all the peoples. Notice that the judgment rendered is based on their individual conduct (i.e., doing good works), and the outcome is whether one receives eternal punishment or eternal life.
irenaeus, the Book of Revelation refers to the Great White Throne Judgement, there will be no Christians at that judgement only the people whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life and yes the lost will be judged for their works and they will reap the consequences of their sins. At this judgement they will reap punishment whereas at the Judgement Seat of Christ believers will reap rewards. But the final destination of the lost is determined based on the fact that their names were not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life as a result of them not accepting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Now there is some discussion as to whether or not everyone's name is originally written in the Lamb's Book of Life and because they did not accept Christ as Savior and Lord the Holy Spirit did not seal their name in the Book and as a result their names are blotted out as opposed to not written in the Lamb's Book of Life, but the bottomline is our names either being found in or not in the Book is totally a result of either accepting or not accepting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord and has nothing to do with works.
ireneaus, you've changed horses in mid-stream on us, we were not discussing a person losing their salvation, but rather we were discussing works being a required part of the salvation process. As for one losing their salvation there are a number of Scriptures that teach that is not possible. Paul declares in the Book of Romans that nothing can seperate us from the love of God, Jesus Himself declares that there is no one or nothing to include ourselves that can remove us from the hand of God, Paul declares several times that when one is saved our names are not only written in the Lamb's Book of Life they are in fact sealed in the book. When we are saved the very moment we are saved we receive eternal life. At the Judgement Seat of Christ all the works we have done since we became a Christian will be judged and we'll reap rewards for all the works that remain, but even if all our works are burnt up we'll still be saved because our foundation as a result of being saved is in Jesus Christ. Again I would refer you to Ephesians 2:10 which says a major reason God saves us is to join Him in doing the work He created us and purposed for us to do with and for Him. And if a person willfully chooses not to join God in doing His work then there is a high probability that person has not had a genuine conversion experience and remains lost.
Those who have not, by faith, accepted Jesus as their Lord do not have their names written in the Book of Life, therefore they will be cast into the lake of fire. It is pretty simple to see that there is a distinction between the books (which contain their deeds) and the Book of Life.
And I think it's uncool of you to state that wherever it says we are judged that it has to do with our salvation, even though it does not state in those verses that you quoted that it has anything to do with salvation. It talks about rewards, as I just got done saying...works dictate our reward i n heaven. It is pretty simple.
Otherwise, the person who accepts Jesus as their Lord while on their deathbed isnt saved and going to heaven. Otherwise, the person who accepts Jesus as his Lord and then dies a day or two later without doing any "good works", isn't going to heaven.
I Corinthians 3:13-15 says it fairly straighforward:
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
So if salvation is dependent upon works, this scripture needs to be removed. This scripture says that our works will be tried (tested, judged). And if our works are burned (found to be useless) we will what? Be saved, but as though through the fire...meaning barely. So once again we see clearly that salvation is not hinged upon works.
Perhaps I should not have said Gemtlemen... I could be dialoguing with some ladies, too. Never know with these usernames.
Gentlemen,
It has been great dialoguing with you. I will be out of town on business over the next week, so if I'm not able to log on and follow along in this thread, it's not that I'm ignoring you guys. This exchange has been engaging, and hopefully I can continue.
Thanks and God Bless!
believer,
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 addresses one aspect of works that have failed in some way to meet a certain ‘quality,’ and certainly the motive behind the work could be one of those attributes deemed less than ideal and worthy of some penalty. However, that is different than a believer who later falls into serious sin or refuses to grow in sanctity and remains unrepentant. So while this passage mentions that a person who is guilty of ‘less than adequate works’ may be “saved, but only as through fire,” other passages speak of ‘bad works’ more severely and do not hold out eternal life as the recompense for those guilty of such.
Prophet,
“The scripture you quoted from Revelation...I've already explained. If you read it, you will see that there is the Book of Life, and then other "books" that contained our works. Please note that those who were cast into the lake of fire had nothing to do with the books that contained our works....but only those who's names did not appear in the Book of Life.”
What!? Did you not read the passage? It says that they were judged according to what they had done AS RECORDED IN THE BOOKS. Then one verse later, it is reiterated that each man was JUDGED ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS. Yes, their name was not found written in the Book of Life, but that is revealing the verdict of the judgment, not THE REASON for the judgment.
Prophet,
"As I said earlier...works do not bring salvation, they merely dictate the reward we will have in heaven."
No they don't merely dictate personal rewards. Some passages, yes; but many of the passages explicitly state that those who have done good - heaven; those who have done evil - hell. Pretty simple.
Let me try to clarify what I am saying a bit.
Christ is the author of faith and salvation. When we trust in what God did through His Son, Jesus Christ, the payment of all of our sins for all time if we believe, is when we are justified and positionally sanctified, and saved. If we immediately die without works, we are still saved. However, if we do not immediately die, then that faith will begin to change us, and continue to change us - to sanctify us (make us more holy - continuing sanctification). This faith will cause us to become more like Christ. This in turn will cause ot act differently and to do things which will show that we love Christ.
The audiences to whom Paul wrote when speaking of ‘justification by faith’ were attempting to live by following ‘rules’ rather than relying on God. However, James was writing to a group of people who professed faith, but whose faith was not evident in their lives. Thus, James wrote that mere knowledge is not sufficient to gain justification, but that knowledge which manifested itself in people’s lives through what they did is necessary.
Jesus said to the woman:
Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Paul said, in Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
It is faith that saves us - faith is trust/conviction. But Faith engenders us to do good works. Faith that does not engender good works is not faith.
This is what James was referring to when he said faith without works is dead. If what you call faith does not change you to move you to be who God has called you to be and do what God has called you to do, then you have to ask yourself if you have true faith.
James 2:14-20
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
If one claims to have faith, but does not have actions to go along with that faith, then it is only a belief, and not faith. However, it is NOT the action/works that saves us, it is the faith in what God did through His Son Jesus Christ (the payment of each and every sin for all time for those who truly believe) that engenders the actions/works that saves us.
We are justified when we truly believe - when we trust in what God has done for us. Jesus did not say she was forgiven and saved because of her actions, but because of the faith exemplified by her actions.
iranaeus,
As I said earlier...works do not bring salvation, they merely dictate the reward we will have in heaven.
The scripture you quoted from Revelation...I've already explained. If you read it, you will see that there is the Book of Life, and then other "books" that contained our works. Please note that those who were cast into the lake of fire had nothing to do with the books that contained our works....but only those who's names did not appear in the Book of Life.
irenaeus, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 talks to the very issue of the role of works in the life of the believer. It states that our works if done for the right motive will lead to rewards, but those done for the wrong motive will be burnt up and we get no reward, but more importantly it says that even if all of our works are burnt up we will be saved because our foundation is Jesus Christ. This takes place at the Judgement Seat of Christ and is for believers only. At the Great White Throne Judgement all who have rejected Christ will be judged according to their sins and will reap the consequences of their sins because they didn't by faith accept God's forgiveness for their sins which was justified by Christ when He shed His blood for the remission of all our sins on Calvary.
steiner,
"do you agree that justification excludes faith in the church?"
I guess it depends on what you mean by 'faith' here. Do you agree that justification excludes faith in the Bible? Or if I were alive during the years immediately following the ascension and Pentecost, do you agree that justification would exclude faith in the apostles? The church, scriptures, and apostles all bear witness to the faith. The object of our faith is God and the One whom he sent.
steiner et al,
In Matt 16:27, it states that the Son of Man will come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then will reward (i.e., recompense, repay, render) to each man according to his works (or deeds). The first part of this verse is nearly identical to Matt 25:31 where it states that the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, and will sit on his throne to judge all the peoples. Notice that the judgment rendered is based on their individual conduct (i.e., doing good works). Virtually every time judgment is mentioned in scripture, it is based on works. Yes, I agree that faith is implied, and we know that without faith it is impossible to please God. And yes, we cannot boast of our good works as if God is obligated to reward us for them; i.e., we cannot earn heaven by our good works. But it is without question that, according to scripture, our good works are somehow necessary for our salvation.
And the dead were JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were JUDGED, EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:12-15).
“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth; THOSE WHO HAVE DONE GOOD, to the resurrection of life, and THOSE WHO HAVE DONE EVIL, to the resurrection of condemnation” (Jn. 5:28-29).
“He who BELIEVES in the Son has everlasting life; and HE WHO DOES NOT OBEY the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him” (Jn. 3:36).
"But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For HE WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS: To THOSE WHO BY PATIENCE IN WELL-DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but FOR THOSE WHO ARE FACTIOUS AND DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, BUT OBEY WICKEDNESS, there will be wrath and fury." (Rom 2:5-8).
amen steiner.
The one argument the homosexual "Christians" use is this: "Well, this is the way God made me, so this is the way I'm going to be."
We are all born into sin, so I guess that's the way we should all be. Therefore the work of the cross is made null. A man is born blind, so that is the way it should be. Therefore the miracles of Christ are made null.
The excuse of the homosexual destroys the entire life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Christ came and died for us so that we could CHANGE (do not be conformed to this world, but be changed by the renewing of your mind (paraphrased)) into His image.
The way you were born, and the way God wants you to be are two completely different things. It's a journey that He implores us to take.
hlerwin,
Forgive me for acting, as you put it, so smugly. I should have simply pointed out that I thought you were being rude. I pray that Christ will continue to work in your life and sustain you in your times of need as you seek Him. And if you believe in Jesus, I hope that you will pray to Him for me also, to act in a more Christian manner towards my neighbour...
The homosexual agenda has been driven by a pseudoscience that the media has used to brainwash most of society. Homosexuals cannot help themselves, we have been told, because homosexuality is genetic...
When asked whether paedophilia , bisexuality, multisexuality are genetic... or bestiality, or necromancy...many have taken this as an insult and simply not discussed it. The taboo that the breakers of taboo will not touch...
But is homosexuality genetic?
Identical twins by definition have the same DNA. Yet, it will be found that while one of the twins may be a homosexual the other is not necessarily one also.
Can homosexuality then, simply be a result of a biochemical/brain disfunction -
Drug addictions are able to affect the way the brain functions at the basic level.
This isnt limited to drugs; it applies to anything that we become sensitized to, dependent and attached to for a long period of time...
Repeated behaviour creates a path which our brain cannot do without. A path, much like a railway track to a train, or a road to a car...where our brain has an extremely difficult time leaving it once it is built.
How else then shall we explain bisexuality, or paedophilia, or numerous other behaviours...?
The mind has been trained through repetitive and continued use of that path to the point where it cannot do anything else but travel on that road.
How else can we explain drive? the drive of a millionaire to become a billionaire, unable to stop...but to keep on piling up more and more.
Or the collector of rubbish who keeps on collecting more and more rubbish till the house and the yard and everything owned is totally filled with it, but wont stop bringing more in..
Or with anorexics...can we show that it is genetic? again, using the idea of identical twins, you will find that just because one is anorexic, the other does not necessarily follow...
And with anorexics there is a particularity that should be noted. We see that although they are in every respect truly thin...they completely see themselves as fat...undermining every reality that is flung their way
Homosexuals are the same. Although their sexual parts are there and they can bear children on their own without any problems...many have gotten themselves in a predicament where they will not admit to their true gender, or their ability to have children...
But like the anorexics they are under a complete illusion as to the reality of things....
They have fallen in love they say...but a corrupted love that contributes to a sterile and spoiled society...let alone faith.
Robbie,
May God's blessings and Spirit be upon you and your family abundantly.
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2nd Timothy 2:15. Notice Paul says to study (not just read) the Bible.
Keep studying, my friend. For in those pages is life and strength.
And...hlerwin, my prayers are with you too. A lot of venom in your posts. Hopefully you will be kinder if and when we all meet in person.
Prophet, kboswell and jb,
thankyou for your posts.
Prophet, thankyou for your honesty in your comments. I can see your heart is true and you are a student of the true Word.
Blessings to you all.
Igh, many of us will pray for you, I'm sure, so that the Truth is shown to you,
blessings.
For steiner re: your pronouncement "I believe that the same spirit that moved those romans is now also moving in you." How do you (and some others) ever arrive at the lofty spot from which you can tell what spirit is moving in another person you do not even know? So smug...... No wonder non-religious people lash out at such offputting behavior on the part of people like you.
Irenaeus,
after you answer my question also note that James was simply reiterating to the Jewish believers what Paul states in Galatians to also Jewish believers..
In both cases there, converted Jews are systematically following/obeying the law as a means to show their faith and their salvation. James focuses on controlling ones speech, pride,riches,demonic wisdom, favoritism ...etc.
This is what Paul addresses in Galatians, but does it a lot more bluntly than James...Where James simply questions their faith, Paul defines the WORKs of the spirits that deniy Christ:
Note: Galatians 5: 19 - adultery, fornication, ...jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions...whereas James is gentler and questions their faith, Paul simply defines these as outworking of the flesh...
Paul makes obvious the work of the Spirit in Christians, just as James does...what are the outworkings of Faith in Christ? What are the outworking of the Spirit of Christ in Christians:: Galatians 5:22 - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, self-control...
I believe Prophet has already made this obvious ...go back and read his posts...
and reading like faith has to do with more than looking at the letters..is what James would say...
Paul would probably say...you cant read if...I hope you get the drift.
I'm not sure if I'll be disagreeing with some in the area of justification but here goes, we were justified, made innocent, by the work of Christ at Calvary our faith is the vessel by which we recieve that justification. It's like when I was growing up every now and then the Post Office would send my parents a letter that said there was a piece of unclaimed mail with our name on it and they needed to come pick it up, most times they chose not to because they had no idea who the sender was. It is the same way with justification except we know who the gift in this case was sent from Jesus Christ, that is the work we do in order to be saved if some insist on using that word our work is we accept the gift of eternal life and enter into a relationship with God through Christ by stepping out in faith and receiving our justification that was bought by the shed blood of Christ on Calvary. Our faith is not our justification but rather our means of accepting our justification paid for by Jesus Christ. As our advocate He informs the Father that even though we are guilty we are justified by the blood of Christ because we have willingly stepped out in faith and have accepted that justification and are now pardoned from the penalty of our sins and are eternally adopted into the family of God. We are not innocent but even better we are eternally pardoned because the pure and innocent Son of God paid a price that only He could pay for our justification.
hlerwin,
WORD frieks...The Romans used to call the Christians..cretins..I believe that the same spirit that moved those romans is now also moving in you. To those that do not believe Christ is foolishness...
Here it is again (without the typos): I find many of these long-winded "discussions" fascinating, but I am reminded of what our former pastor said once. In response to an observation I made about the Reformation, he replied, "Oh, yes, all those early reformers started as 'word freaks.'" Gee....I hope that's not what I'm involved with often.
I find many of these long-winded "discussions" fascinating, but I am reminded of what our former pastor said once. In response to an observation I made about the Reformation, he replaied, "Oh, yes, all those early early reformers started as 'word freaks.'" Gee....I hope that's not what I'm involved with often.
Ireneaus,
do you agree that justification excludes faith in the church?
wbmoore,
In Galatians Paul describes the work that Christ has done. This work had to be done to satisfy the requirements of the law...for us. Christ redeemed us from the law and established a new covenant where we are free from the requirements of the law, but are now new creatures, living and growing in His Spirit and Word. Such that our work is to walk in the Spirit of Christ through faith.
Hence, to argue that we cannot do works to obtain salvation...we mean that we cannot satisfy the law by ourselves...and that is why Christ did it for us...but to then state that works are needed as well, is like saying: no we dont need them, but we need them...confusion abounds with these types of arguments and they lead to insanity.
Yet, the Work of CHRISTS Spirit (CHRIST IS THE ETERNAL HIGH PRIEST WHO CONTINUALLY INTERCEDES FOR US) in ourselves as a requirement to live and grow in the new Life is consistent with Christian doctrine as necessary with FAITH IN CHRISTS RIGHTEOUSNESS
(THE ONLY RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO GOD);
and as a demonstration of that faith, the fruits of the Spirit issue forth from us as evidence of our new nature.
steiner,
"The ground of our justification is Christs righteousness only."
I wholeheartedly agree; I don't believe anyone is arguing this point.
"This is what Paul wrote when he said that we are justified by faith alone."
But Paul never stated that we are justified by faith alone. This would have been so simple for him to say for he uses the term 'faith' and 'alone' many times, but never 'faith alone.' The only time in scripture where 'faith alone' appears is in James 2:24, and it is preceeded by the words 'not by.' And I agree that works should follow genuine faith, but if that's all James wanted to demonstrate, he could have merely stated that a person can prove his faith by works and that a person is justified by works completing (or perfecting) his faith. But James states that we are justified by works 'and not by faith alone;' i.e., someone must have been making the argument for justification by faith alone, otherwise there would have been no reason to add the last part of that statement.
wbmoore,
to say that we need more than faith in Christs righteousness to be justified, is to deny Christs high Priesthood, and to commit man to another priest...
to continue to do works, in order to obtain justice from God...which is what RCC preaches..in order to make its priesthood the centre...as they replace Christ.
In regards to being justified by faith...
Justification comes from the Greek word "dikaioo" which means "to render innocent". So by faith we are rendered innocent. Just thought I'd throw that into the pot. I know that is merely reiterating what we've been talking about....
Well said wbmoore,
what faith are we talking about here? because if we dont clarify this, then we have been hooked and are being drawn in to what is false, away from Christ and into something else.
Justification has to do with justice. How could there be justice without Christs righteousness?
The ground of our justification is Christs righteousness only. This excludes faith in the church, which many have tried to add as a means of adding weights on believers...so that believers would also have to submit to the so called spiritual authority of churches that wish to take Christ from the centre, so that their agendas become the centre.
It is no irony that this is the case with a church which accepts homosexual unions, and wishes to keep its agenda as it casts Christ out. No different are the Roman Catholic Church which continue to have priests when Christ is Eternal Priest and Christs sacrifice and Christs High Priesthood is all we need...
Hence, the ground of justification can only be CHRISTS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Faith is in Christs righteousness only. There are no additions that can be made...like faith in Christ and the church...this is blasphemy, for many churches are corrupt and have been corrupted and will corrupt their members if they fail to accept this.
Sounds like there is a confusion between different uses of the term belief and faith and work.
Different people often use the same term in different ways. People often confuse the idea of a thought with a belief and faith - perhaps conviction would be a better term, but it is so full of different connotations in the Christian realm. A thought is something people think might be possible. A belief is a thought that is slightly more strongly believed than a mere thought. Faith is trust - it is belief that is so strongly held as to change one internally, which in turn changes one's actions externally.
John 6:29
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
In context, Jesus was refering to the fact that one must have faith - a belief that is so strongly held as to effect change in the person. This faith changes one internally, which changes one externally.
This is what Paul wrote when he said that we are justified by faith alone:
Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
But recall, Paul also said that people are have faith and then prove that faith exists by what they do:
Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Now, Peter was using the word that has been translated as faith to show that if there is no change, then it is not true faith.
James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Here Peter is saying that if you claim to have faith, but do not have actions, then you do not have faith. But this does not mean that what you do makes up faith, as we use the term, simply that a lack of works is evidence of a lack of faith.
Jesus, Paul, and Peter. were all saying the same thing: You must believe in God and what He has done (sending Christ to pay the price of our sins on the cross). This is known as faith, or trust or conviction. This should then be proven by one's life.
For those of you Christians who are still naive enough to vote for a liberal Democrat, this just came in hot off the press:
Canadian Pastor Fined after Speaking Against Homosexuality
Human-rights tribunal also orders him to stop sharing his Bible-based beliefs.
A Canadian human-rights tribunal has ordered a Christian pastor to renounce his faith and never again express moral opposition to homosexuality, WorldNetDaily reported.
The Alberta Human Rights Tribunal ordered the Rev. Stephen Boissoin to stop expressing his biblical perspective of homosexuality and to pay $7,000 in "damages for pain and suffering."
The decision came after Boissoin wrote a letter to the editor of his local Red Deer, Alberta, newspaper in 2002 that included this statement: "Children as young as five and six years of age are being subjected to psychologically and physiologically damaging pro-homosexual literature and guidance in the public school system; all under the fraudulent guise of equal rights."
http://www.citizenlink.org/CLNews/A000007622.cfm
ireneaus, But if a person who claims to be a believer refuses to join God in doing His will or joining Him in fulfilling His Great Commission there is a very high probability that person has not had a genuine conversion experience, that is not to say it will always be an easy choice and that we won't struggle, but when a person is truly saved their heart's desire is to not only lead a life that is pleasing to God, but to share that same salvation with others as well. The problem is as long as we have to contend with the Cheap Grace Gospel and the Name It And Claim It Gospel many are buying into a false understanding of what it means to experience genuine conversion and as a result we have a large group of so-called believers who have no desire to please God or if they do it's a result of always expecting something in return be it health or wealth or some other selfish desire. If our works are not done for the right motive as I shared in the first blog then they will be no more than wood, hay, or stubble and will be consumed on the altar at the Judgement Seat of Christ, but if our foundation is in Christ we will be saved. My fear is that their are many so-called believers who are not only doing works for the wrong reason, in some cases to either earn or keep their salvation, who do not have a foundation in Christ and are lost and without Christ.
irenaus, evangelicals often use Ephesians 2:8-9 to show an unbeliever that works cannot save us but that by God's grace alone, through faith alone, by the work of Christ on the cross alone are we saved, but we need to finish by showing one of the major reasons God desires to save us is to allow us to join Him in fulfilling His will and even more specifically God's Great Commission. Ephesians 2:10 says, "For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. But I think we need to realize that when God's Word speaks of good works it is more than just doing kind things but rather they include the purpose for doing good works, when we as Christians do good works it must be for more than just meeting physical, financial, or emotional needs they must be done with the desire of seeing unsaved people come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and to see believers grow in their relationship with God and as a result they not only become more like Christ but as a result of becoming more like Christ they are more usable to God as well. This type of work is not capable for a person to effectively accomplish until they become a believer, so we are not saved in any way shape or form by works, but we are saved in order to be able to join God in doing His work.
wbmoore,
"I'm not sure if you are arguing that faith includes works or not. Faith is apart from works (anything we do - i.e. good deeds). Works are evidence of a changed heart, that comes when we accept the free gift of faith."
Faith is apart from works [of law] (i.e. works done with a view toward obligate God to reward us for them as if God is then indebted to us)
I agree that faith is the foundation or ground for our justification, and certainly I agree that our works do not earn our salvation. However, our works, while they certainly are evidence of our faith, must somehow play a role in our justification. In other words, I have heard the statement – we are justified by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone. But what does that mean? That we are justified when we have faith AND works, but only the faith part of the equation is what justifies us? Yet, faith without works does not justify because it is an incomplete faith. I am very mathematical and logical, so this could be illustrated as follows:
faith alone ==> not justified
complete (or perfected) faith = faith + works ==> justification
Therefore, the difference between whether or not one is justified is works. Again, works do not ‘earn’ justification, but they are somehow required. This is what I'm trying to get my hands around.
wbmoore,
In Galatians Paul describes the work that Christ has done. This work had to be done to satisfy the requirements of the law...for us. Christ redeemed us from the law and established a new covenant where we are free from the requirements of the law, but are now new creatures, living and growing in His Spirit and Word. Such that our work is to walk in the Spirit of Christ through faith.
Hence, to argue that we cannot do works to obtain salvation...we mean that we cannot satisfy the law by ourselves...and that is why Christ did it for us...but to then state that works are needed as well, is like saying: no we dont need them, but we need them...confusion abounds with these types of arguments and they lead to insanity.
Yet, the Work of the Spirit in ourselves as a requirement to live and grow in the new Life is consistent with Christian doctrine as necessary along with faith; and as a demonstration of that faith, the fruits of the Spirit issue forth from us as evidence of our new nature.
Please clarify this further, if you can. Thank you.
steiner,
I'm not sure what you need to have clarified.
What we do externally is the working out of what we are internally. If we have the Spirit of God in us, then we begin to change internally. This will be reflected in the things we do in our lives externally. As we mature in faith (through knowledge, trust, surrender, and experience), we change more and more internally to develop the fruit of the spirit. This growth in maturity is then reflected in our daily lives externally.
wbmoore ,
well said in regards to faith and work. Also consider what Paul notes in Galatians 5:16 - ...in regards to works. Notice that the works described are in context of the work of the Spirit that we allow the Spirit to accomplish in us as we trust(and that is why without faith in Christ there can be nothing that bridges the gap between man and God ) in Christ.
- I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are contrary to one another, so that you DO not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law....
But note what Paul describes as the WORKS of the flesh:
Vs. 19 - Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness.....those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God...
22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, ....If we live in the Spirit ,. let us also walk in the Spirit...
Just as the works of the flesh are described as attitudes driven by the spirit of sin;
the work of the Spirit, as we walk in the Spirit are attitudes of Joy, Love...and these are described as fruits also. Hence work here is simply the result of walking in the Spirit...allowing the Spirit to work in us.
Perhaps you can clarify this further.
I have come to believe that the most difficult issue in the life of a believer is the issue of surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the control of the Holy Spirit. I firmly believe that if a person comes to the point of making that decision and they willfully say no to God when it comes to surrender then they need to revisit their salvation experience because my sense would be that they did not make a genuine profession in Christ. To be honest I had a great struggle with the surrender issue early on in my Christian life, it wasn't that I didn't want to surrender I just didn't get it until God used my relationship with my girlfriend who is now my wife of 33+ years to show me what I was doing and what I needed to do if I was to become the man of God He wanted me to be so that He could use me and develop me to my fullest for His glory. A booklet I found several years later has been a great help to me in showing new believers what it means to be totally surrendered to Christ and the control of the Holy Spirit, it's a booklet by Robert Munger called, "My Heart Christ's Home". What the writer does is shows our heart as a house and Jesus goes through every room in the house and shows the man what He needs to do to make His home usable to Christ and finally how the best thing He could do is turn total control and ownership of His home over to Christ. I have also discovered in my own life that surrender is not only a daily moment by moment decision but rather it is a choice by choice matter, just about every choice I make each day determines who is truly Lord of my life and because we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit the moment we are saved He is there to help us and encourage us to make the right choice not only for our good but for the glory of God and as a witness to the world that Jesus Christ is not only our Savior, He is the Lord of our lives and we desire to live for and serve Him alone.
irenaeus,
I'm not sure if you are arguing that faith includes works or not. Faith is apart from works (anything we do - i.e. good deeds). Works are evidence of a changed heart, that comes when we accept the free gift of faith. Scripture is clear, that if we have no good works, then our faith is worthless. However, scripture is also clear that it is not works of any sort that saves us - it is God through faith in Christ that saves us.
Although we can learn about GOd from the world around us, we have to hear/read about/from God to know Him. It is getting to know who God is, what God has and will do, and what God wants from us and for us, that causes us to come to know Him. As we get to know Him, we come to trust.
If we trust what God has done, is doing, and will do, through the cross on Calvary, then we are justified (declared righteous with the righteousness of Christ imputed to us) and positionally santified (set aside)..
As we grow in knowledge, we should also be growing in love for God and our brothers. As we grow in knowledge and love, we also grow in obedience and our desire to be used by God to do the good works whch were prepared in advance for us to do.
I think the life of a Christian is about knowledge, trust, relationship with God, love, and obedience. But without trust, none of the rest of it matters.
My Faith = Trust + Love in God. You have to know who he is before you can Trust and Love him. Many see this is the way True Servants of Christ Reflect Christ in all they do! Missionaries even. We are all Missionaries.
This is what God has taught me. And i do Humble myself to God so i can be Led, Teachable and Usable by him. We have to give up our will and lives. And this is such a wonderful thing the unbelievers cant see. Those who have rejected Christ dont see that we gain so much in everyway. As Children of God we enjoy communion with God in the Spirit with the Holy Spirit! Our minds are Changed into the likeness of Christ's. Wise , Good, Loving , Self Sacrificing, Standing up to Evil, Morally straight and Humble. These things are reflected in when we have families of our own, when we open a business and run it as Jesus would and if Jesus were our Supervisor, in Government we Reflect the True Saviour in servanthood , Highest morals/ethics, just plain hard work.
Col 3:9 " ............... seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
Prophet,
"28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
I agree with Paul that man is justified by faith APART FROM THE WORKS OF THE LAW. But the phrase ‘justified by faith APART FROM THE WORKS OF THE LAW’ does NOT mean ‘justified by faith apart from ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING.’ It only means that we are justified by faith apart from WORKS OF THE LAW, whatever ‘works of the law’ are. So what are these works of law that they must not be added to faith? Paul explains in what context he is addressing the issue of works. What Paul means by ‘works of the law’ are works that are performed with a view toward OBLIGATING God to reward us for them, as if God owes us recompense, as if God is indebted to us under a contractual obligation. We know that this is what Paul meant because he introduces this concept of obligation in Rom 4:4 he uses the example of an employer being OBLIGATED/INDEBTED (the Greek work is a form of the word ofeilhma) to his employee to pay for work done. The employer is not gratuitous by paying the employee for the work the employee has done; he is obligated to do so. Paul is stating that if we attempt to obligate God to reward us for our good works, then we place ourselves under the system of law. And under the system of law, God will hold us against the strict edicts of the law, which will show us how distant we are from the perfection that the law demands. However, by faith we are placed under the system of grace by which we can please God our Father as his adopted children. Under the advocacy of God’s grace, our works are viewed as acceptable and pleasing to God because they perfect, or complete, our faith. This being so, God ‘declares’ that we are just, but He makes this declaration because he has MADE us just; God does not merely call (declare) us as just if we are not intrinsically just. We are a new creation in Christ; God does not just pretend that we are a new creation. You have to keep in mind under which perspective scripture is speaking of 'works.'
Prophet,
"So once again, this does not support your argument about salvation by works."
I never said that salvation is by works (if by that you mean 'earning' salvation), and certainly not apart from faith. I also never said that scripture does not address the Christian gaining personal rewards. What I am saying is that scripture also speaks of heaven itself as a reward. Not every one of those verses that you claim are merely referring to rewards are actually doing so. For example, you state that Matt 16:27 is referring to personal rewards, yet this same phrase (render or reward each man according to his deeds) or similar one is used in other passages in the immediate context of salvation or eternal damnation; i.e., it is not individual personal rewards that are in view, but the whole of whether or not one gains eternal life.
Troyg on an earlier post said:
(Quote) Gene Robinson is a hero to many gay and lesbian Christians. He stands for what he (and we) know to be true - God bless them both. And those tuxes look....faaaaaaaaabulous...........! (closeQuote)
No such thing as gay lesbian christians.
Glad we 'discussed' Faith. They have none, no matter the works seen by them. they may Love and have Compassion and be Rather intelligent. Have a family they come from that loves them (father mother sisters brothers) and is devoted to one another. They may be free of alcohol tobacco porn gambling etc.. But in there hearts they are unRepentive, in Rebellion, living a life of sin they have Said is ok with God. Even being celibate ( how can we prove that even?) has not, will not please God, they have to turn from sin, Repent and Serve the Risen Saviour with all there heart , Truely submitting there will unto Jesus's and through him our Father in Heaven. They do not Love God. They have not picked up there cross and followed Christ , They have not Humbled themselves to God Laying down there Will and Lives to his Service. We know Jesus did that to his Father and is an example to us all.
Php 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
steiner,
Amen! It is our goal as Christians to attain the image of Christ in our life. And it's not something that we can sit back and say "Ok, Jesus...do your thing" and then we do absolutely nothing. The Bible says to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. The means we have to do something. Paul speaks of running the race, fighting the good fight, reaching the prize....all these signify work (spiritual and physical) that is required on our part. But on our own we would surely fail in these endeavours. "Not by might, nor by power..but by My Spirit says the Lord". When the children of Israel entered into the Promise Land, God told them that the entire land of Canaan was theres. But they didn't just lay back and say "Ok, God...give it to us." God told them to go forth conquering, and He was there everytime to assure their victory (with the exception of Ai, which was due to sin in their camp).
I must go to work, so I will expound on righteousness...His vs. ours... when I get back. God bless you.
Prophet,
by saying: His Spirit works in us salvation, I intend to say that although we have been saved by faith in accepting Christ s work(the cross).... now that we have been born again, we allow Christ to continue to work in us by His Spirit in order for the new person in us to grow spiritually(but the Bread of the spirit is Christ s Word), ....Maybe this is clearer...maybe you can add to this...
Prophet,
it seems to me that when speaking of spiritual work; it ought to be Spiritual work. For Christ works in us by His Spirit, and His Spirit can work in us salvation as we allow Him to work in us...as opposed to the spirit that works in those that oppose Christ...
Perhaps you can clarify this even more...
once again...thanks for posting. God bless.
Amen, believer!
It's one thing to quote scripture. Even the unsaved know scripture and quote them. But to understand them is something entirely different. That's why Paul exhorts us to STUDY the Bible...not just read it. I could read a Quantum Physic book 50 times and still not know a thing about it. And if i were to try and have a discussion about it with someone who has studied and knows all about it, then I look like a fool. But if I were to actually study what is in the pages...then understanding comes.
It is the work of Christ on the cross that saves us and when we put our faith/trust in Christ and the work He did on our behalf at Calvary then we are saved. When Christ said "it is finished" all that could and would be done for our salvation was completed and the only thing we can do is by faith accept Christ as Savior and Lord. Christ does say if you love Me you will keep My commands or obey My commands. Granted even though we are saved we will still disobey God either by acts of omission or commission, but overall our lives should show the world and God that we love Him so much because He has saved us and because now He is our heavenly Father and now are utmost desire is to please Him for the rest of our lives and if that is not the utmost desire of our heart then there is a high probability we have not had a genuine conversion experience, willingly doing good works out of our love for God is the result of our salvation not a requirment to be saved or to stay saved that was accomplished by the work of Christ on Calvary.
Romans 3:26-28
"To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Acts 26:20
"But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."
The word "meet" means "worthy of" or "deserving of".
Faith will get you saved....works will prove you're saved.
And finally Revelations 22:12 is about rewards, not salvation.
But I will leave you with these scriptures...
John 6:27-29
"27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
Now, Revelation 20: 12-13 is an odd scripture.
We see that there is the Book of Life...and then other "books"..apparently ones which contain recording of our works.
But we see that in verse 15...the only ones thrown into the lake of fire are the one's whose names are not written in the Book of Life. It has nothing to do with the other books. Only those who have accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord have their name written in the Book of Life.
So once again, this does not support your argument about salvation by works.
Verse 19
Luke 6:35 talks about rewards, not salvation.
Luke 14:13-14 is talking about rewards, not salvation.
Romans 2:5-7 is debatable. If read in context begining in verse one, Paul is talking about judging and how we ought not to judge, and how we will recieve the reward of our works. That to me is talking about the spiritual work of judging...but still debatable.
I Corinthians 3:8 is talking about rewards, not salvation.
2 Corinthians 5:10 is talking about rewards, not salvation.
Ephesians 6:8.....Ditto
Colossians 3:23-24....ditto
2 Timothy 4:8...ditto
2 John verse 8.....ditto
Revelations 3:21....ditto
Prophet,
"So we see again, that the works mentioned are spiritual works a.k.a. righteousness."
Where does it say that? Why is one who sows righteousness necessarily only referring to spiritual works?
Proverbs 11:18-19 "The wicked man does deceptive work,
But he who sows righteousness will have a sure reward.
19 As righteousness leads to life,
So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death. "
So we see again, that the works mentioned are spiritual works a.k.a. righteousness.
Proverbs 24:12 says absolutely nothint about salvation
Matthew 5:12 is talking abut persecution...not works.
Matthew 6:3-4 isn't talking about salvation. It's talking about rewards...which is my point exactly.
Matthew 16:26-27 again makes my point. This isn't talking about salvation. It's talking about rewards.
Matthew 25:34-36 is very convincing. But read Matthew 7:21-23. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Why did these people do good works...and yet are denied by Christ?
Prophet,
"Our phycial works merely dictate our reward in heaven, not our salvation."
Many prominent passages teach that salvation is the reward for works including Prov 11:18f; 24:12; Matt 5:12; 6:3-4; 16:26-27; 25:34-36; Luke 6:35; 14:13-14; Rom 2:5-7; 1 Cor 3:8; 2 Cor 5:10; Eph 6:8, Col 3:23-24; 2 Tim 4:8; 2 John 8; Apoc 3:21; 20:12-13; 22:12. Of course, many will say that this is merely for personal reward, but this doesn't do justice the the passages. For example, Matthew 16:26f is about the last judgment. Those who sin will be recompensed with hell, and those who do good works will be recompensed with heaven. Again in Matt 25:31ff everyone is judged based upon their deeds. Likewise Romans 2:5-7: the contrast is between the elect and the reprobate. 2 Corinthians 5:10 is almost identical to Matthew 16:26 and following: the righteous are recompensed with heaven for their good works and the wicked with hell for their sins. Again, in Colossians 3:24 the reward described is not merely a nifty personal crown; it is the believer’s inheritance or reward; i.e. eternal life. Finally, Apocalypse 20:11ff is the ultimate Biblical judgment scene, yet here again all are judged on the basis of their works; there is absolutely no mention of those “hid from God’s eyes under the blood of the lamb” versus those exposed to shame. Obviously, faith is implied for those who are saved for without faith it is impossible to please God. However, those who are not saved may never have had faith and died unrepentant, or they may have had faith and repented of their sin but later became disobedient and unrepentant; e.g., 2 Pet. 2:20-22.
wbmoore,
"Scripture is quite clear, You can not earn salvation through works."
I have never said that one can earn their salvation through works. I am merely stating that good works (or obedience) is necessary for salvation. Our good works can never place God in a position of being indebted to us to reward us for them, but nonetheless, scripture is clear on obedience being necessary.
Well said Prophet, and others(wbmoore....).
You are helping me understand this topic.
Thank you.
Scripture is quite clear, You can not earn salvation through works.
Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Anyone can do good deeds - and I believe everyone should do so. But scripture says doing good deeds is not enough to get entrance to God's family - to save them so they can go to heaven.
St. Therese was a prime example of someone who had no faith or hope, but through her demonstrations of faith was imparted with faith, hope and love.
So, if I help the poor, visit the sick in the hospital, etc, etc, but yet I have a problem with greed, lust and pride, I'm ok?
As Paul puts it..."God forbid"
You fail to differentiate that Paul was talking about our Spiritual works, not our physical works. Our phycial works merely dictate our reward in heaven, not our salvation.
I'm not trying to answer for Prophet, but personally, I think conduct should include helping the poor and visiting the sick. But those actions are reflections of the faith we have - evidence of an internal change - not the faith itself. Doing good physical life works with no faith, no repentance, buys us nothing - it is worthless, not true faith. But IF we have faith, we will begin to change internally. This in turn will be reflected in our external conduct. This is living faith - true faith.
If you have faith, you have hope. If you have faith, you will obey. But obedience is not faith, nor is hope faith. Without faith, none of the rest matters.
If one comes to faith and dies before having a chance to obey or disobey, he has no chance to obey, yet still this person is saved.
If you disobey, you obviously have no faith. If you dont hope for what God has said will occur, then you have no faith. But those things are not faith in and of itself. They are by-products of faith.
Prophet,
"He is not talking about works as in helping the poor, visiting the sick. His plainly talking about how we conduct ourselves. Our spiritual works. Do we live a life of holiness? Do we speak the truth, and live the truth? Or do we do the works of unrighteousness and seek after lust, greed, anger, pride.
That is what Paul was talking about. It is actually quite plain to see."
Why would not our conduct include helping the poor or visiting the sick?
"Faith = trust"
It's much more than that.
faith = trust, hope, obedience, etc... which is why scripture also states that we are 'saved BY HOPE,' or that Jesus is the source of salvation for all who OBEY him, or to those who persist in WORKING GOOD, he will give eternal life, or where scripture contrasts belief with DISOBEDIENCE (not necessarily unbelief).
iraneaus,
You said "How do you square your premise of no meritorious works with Paul's statement in Rom 2:7 that those who pursue doing good will inherit eternal life"
Romans 2:6-9 says "who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek"
He is not talking about works as in helping the poor, visiting the sick. His plainly talking about how we conduct ourselves. Our spiritual works. Do we live a life of holiness? Do we speak the truth, and live the truth? Or do we do the works of unrighteousness and seek after lust, greed, anger, pride.
That is what Paul was talking about. It is actually quite plain to see.
Faith = trust.
Faith is more than a thought. People say I believe that Christ existed. This is not faith.
Faith changes the person who has it. It causes one to act upon that faith. Ie. It is one thing to say you believe a 30 year old car will successfully make the drive from Los Angeles to New York City. It is another entirely to drive that car from L.A. to N.Y.C. The first is a having a belief; the second is evidence of faith. It is not the doing of the act that is the faith, it is merely evidence of the faith one has - it is evidence of the trust one has in the object in which one is placing his trust..
I dont think the issue is which sin is in question. I think the issue is whether one practices a habitual sin. When we accept the gift of Faith, which Christ authored, we accept the gift of salvation, which He also authored. At this time, we are to turn from running our own lives and let God run our lives. Simultaneously we are justified - Christ's righteousness is imputed to us - counted as our own righteousness. We are set aside and adopted and made part of the family of God - we are positionally sanctified. We are to make every effort to stop sinful behavior. As we grow in knowledge and faith, we grow in obedience. This leads to our growing personal sanctification, not our justification or positional sanctification.
But the sin itself is unimportant. The idea is we are not to actively sin, but to actively try not to sin.
Romans 14:23, “… whatever is not from faith is sin.”
Hebrews 3:13, “But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called Today, so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.”
1 John 3:4, “Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.”
1 John 3:8-9, “the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
We see in Romans 12:2 that we are to be changed, transformed.
"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."
Peter teaches the same thing:
2 Peter 1:5-8
"For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Brings us to some questions then.
What is Faith?
What are Gays?
But that obedience is not what saves us. It is faith, provided by Christ.
Heb 12:1-2
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
We are to trust Christ, who authored and perfects our faith. We are to love God, and our brothers. We are to avoid sin. We are to work out our salvation with good works, which prepared for us. We are to obey God.
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
But even so, if we are saved, ourlives should reflect this change. Eph 2:10 goes on to say, "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Jesus said in John 14:23-24,
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
Paul said in Acts 26:20, First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
James, the brother of Jesus said in James 2:14-17,
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Peter and other apostles said, Acts 5:29,
Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
The author of Hebrews said in Hebrews 5:9,
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
John wrote in 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
In short, if we love Christ, we will obey him.
Prophet and djt0711,
How do you square your premise of no meritorious works with Paul's statement in Rom 2:7 that those who pursue doing good will inherit eternal life (obviously faith is implied, but Paul is talking about pursuing good in the very context of salvation). Paul does NOT state that those who have eternal life will pursue doing good. While that's true, Paul is not stating this here. Neither is Paul stating that those who pursue working good are doing so as fruits of their faith, or that it's actually to those who have faith or believe in the Lord, he will give eternal life. While that again is true, Paul is not stating this here either. Indeed, what Paul does in fact state in this passage is that it is to those who PURSUE DOING GOOD that the Lord will give eternal life. And just in case you don't think that 'working good' is anyway tied to salvation, Paul contrasts this situation with the opposite; i.e., those who work iniquity. Now if doing good has nothing to do with eternal life, than neither can doing wickedness have anything to do with eternal destruction. Again, scripture makes this very clear by contrasting opposite conditions between ultimately being saved or being condemned. Obviously, Paul has no problems with stating on the one hand that those who pursue doing good will inherit eternal life, and on the other hand, those who are saved are indeed saved by grace through faith, and not of works. Since we know Paul was not contradicting himself, we must look under what perspective Paul is viewing works. But you seem to refuse to view works from more than one perspective as scripture clearly speaks of them. Scripture condemns works in the context of salvation when they are done with a view toward obligating God to reward us for them; i.e., attempting to make God indebted to us as if He owed us salvation for our good works. Scripture mandates works in the very context of salvation when viewed as works of obedience or works done under the advocacy of God's grace. Two different perspectives, and scripture addresses both.
jbnb31691,
"Salvation is only mentioned in scripture as a gift, never as a meritorious reward. Refer to Rom. 6:23 Look for it in the original languages and in the enlgish."
For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord – Romans 6:23.
Paul has no problem speaking of works of obedience (not works of the law) in the very context of salvation. Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” is often quoted by proponents of 'faith alone' theology when emphasizing the idea that eternal life is a GIFT to the exclusion of obedience having anything to do with our salvation. This is the epitome of proof-texting. One must read at least from eight verses prior to v 23 (i.e., Rom 6:15-23) when Paul begins with his illustration of a slave to get the full understanding of what Paul was teaching. Let us look closely… Paul states in v16 that you are slaves to the one whom you OBEY – whether slaves to sin, which leads to death, or [slaves] to obedience, which leads to righteousness. Then he states that you used to be slaves to sin, but you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. Why? In v 17, Paul states that it was because you wholeheartedly OBEYED the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. Paul then asks in v 21 what would you reap if you were still slaves to sin? The result would have been death. However, Paul asks in v 22 what would you reap once you have been set free from sin? Well, from v 16, righteousness which leads to holiness which leads to eternal life. It is at this moment when Paul concludes with the statement that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Thus, obedience that leads to righteousness (which leads to holiness which leads to eternal life) in no way negates the premise that eternal life is a gift. This is a false dichotomy put forth by some in an attempt to undermine the role of obedience with respect to salvation.
biggie said, "Who here can stand against two individuals committing to each other? For love is the greatest gift God has given us."
Like all og God's gifts to us, it has to be used/experienced within the boundaries established by God, or it is sin. Sex before marriage = sin. Using one's spiritual gift to exalt yourself = sin. This love is outside the boundaries set by God, so it is sin.
You want us to rejoice that 2 men join together because there's more love. Why not 3? Why not the foursome in California? I'm reminded of what Paul wrote: 1 What then are we to say? Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound? 2 By no means! (Romans 6:1-2)
The corruption of love ...
Greek philosophers used to love children...they called themselves paedophiles...
Others love animals..
Others love themselves...
love is corrupted...and society spoils.
God has truly blessed Gene Robinson and Mark Andrew! What is LOVE? Love is evidence of a public ceremony of two individuals committing to love, honor, and charish the other.
God is present with Gene and Mark. May their LOVE for each other continue to grow strong and receive the blessings from those who support the sanctity of commitment.
Who here can stand against two individuals committing to each other? For love is the greatest gift God has given us. I am estatic that America is waking up and endorsing same-sex unions.
Thank you America! This is truly a great country! Thank you Evangelicals! For your commitment to love and equality for all to commit to each other shows your true character.
"How Can We Know If Our Faith Is Real?"
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Issues&Answers/635
Indeed we are saved by grace through faith and NOT works, but it must be the type of faith that results in good works. Our salvation is not defined by perfection in our lives, but rather the direction our lives are headed in- whereas we were once sinners chasing after sin, we who are saved are now sinners running away from sin.
Salvation IS based on works according to the Scriptures- you can try and be saved by your own works which the Bible explains will end in failure (Romans 3:20), or you can be saved by the work of Christ. You will not be saved by your own works.
igh- you speak as a fool and lead me to believe that you are either seriously misguided, or you are the very "wolf in sheep's clothing" you accuse jb of being and enjoy aggravating others. You might rightly accuse anyone in any given blog of being a bad writer or even having bad theology or a lack of properly conveying their message, but it is ridiculous to believe you can come to a conclusive understanding of a person's standing before the Lord based on a few short sentences. You are not alone in having suspicions about others based on what they write, and unfortunately you are not alone in spouting those assumptions out loud.
In spite of your assertion that you can judge another based on their behavior, you cannot judge anything other than the behavior and act accordingly. In a church setting sometimes the action is to put a person out of fellowship, or have nothing to do with them at all.
I wonder when you say, "i stay at home and Study with God." this means that you do not attend church . . . ?
igh-
Rather than isolating yourself, you might benefit from studying scripture under the guide of a mentor to assist you in your understanding. You may be blessed by the fellowship as well.
I have to tell you that it concerns me greatly that you claim to hear God telling you who is and is not saved. Also that you quote scripture without inspecting the context, the original language or the biblical history. If you love God's Word as much as you say you do, maybe you would enjoy studying these things as well.
Ireneaus-
It might also benefit us to remember that at the time Jesus was reproving these followers, they were still under the law. Not under grace as you and I are.
Ireneaus-
Salvation is only mentioned in scripture as a gift, never as a meritorious reward. Refer to Rom. 6:23 Look for it in the original languages and in the enlgish. If you find a scripture, let me know.
You quote Christ from Luke 13 and this passage parrallels the passage I quoted from Mt. 7 very well. Let's look at the context of the scripture rather than haphazardly throwing out lines to support our belief.
In the text some people who had been following Jesus on his travels approach him with news of Pilate mixing the blood of the Galileans with the blood of sacrifices. Now, at that time there was a factious group of Galileans who were mixing the blood otheir sacrifices with the blood of the sacrificer in an attempt to make the sacrifice more pleasing to God. This particular group managed to anger Pilate and Herod and suffered for it as reported, the group reporting to Jesus apparently thought they got what they deserved.
The people reporting this incident to Jesus were expecting him to condemn the Galileans as they had. But instead He reproves the disciples as unrighteous accusers. “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
irenaeus,
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"
igh
Yes, the Spirit has spoken correctly on this. And since your actions are not scriptural, I know that what spirit you hear is not of God. Because you misunderstood your sister, you claim that she is condemned by you. That is not of God. That does not agree with the scriptures, and since God cannot go against His Word, then you must be mistaken. Be careful, my friend. You tread on very dangerous ground.
Prophet,
"Good works do not bring forth salvation. Good works is the evidence of our salvation."
Depends on what you mean by 'brings forth.' And yes, good works can be evidence of our salvation, but scripture says much more than that about good works. Scripture clearly shows that faith, hope, charity, repentance, and obedience are all required for salvation. Yes, faith in Christ alone, but not by faith alone. If our works are pleasing to God, it is precisely because of the grace Christ won for us on the cross. Scripture clearly speaks of obedience being so intimately tied with faith (and in some cases, almost uses them synonymously... as if obedience is subsumed under the rubric of faith, not merely the result of faith). What makes this very clear is when scripture illustrates by contrasting opposite antecedents which bring about opposite resulting conditions - namely, that of ultimately being saved or being condemned. Jn 3:36 is one example: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." Here 'disobey' is opposite of 'believe'. Heb. 5:9 states that "He became the source of eternal salvation for all who OBEY him." I think that we would both agree that Jesus became the source of eternal salvation for all who believe in him, but Hebrews uses the word 'obey'. Another contrast of opposites is given in Jn 5:29: "... those who have done good, unto the resurrection of life, but those who have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." Or how about Rom 2:6-7 "... who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well-doing...[he will give] eternal life. But unto them... that do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, [he will give] indignation and wrath."
ive said it many times prophet no sense me saying it again. The Spirit has spoken Correctly on this. Let all who are God's Children understand.
Good works do not bring forth salvation. Good works is the evidence of our salvation.
igh,
I'm afraid you misunderstood jb. He is not saying that by just refraining from sexual urges you can be saved. He is saying that if someone is a Christian with homosexual tendencies, but denies those urges for sake of Christ, then he is not truly a homosexual. Temptation does not imply sin. If that were the case, then we're all in trouble.
jbnb3169,
“Because we are saved by grace through faith and cannot add to the finished work on the cross, our works are evidence of saving faith flowing naturally, not flowing necessarrily. I did nothing to earn my salvation thus I can do nothing to lose it.”
Who said anything about ‘earning’ your salvation? We can do nothing of ourselves to help God out or obligate God to reward us with eternal life; we can do nothing to 'earn' the right to heaven. Amen! Amen! I agree. But that does NOT exclude the role of works in salvation. It merely excludes the performing of good works with an attitude of obligating God to reward us for them; in other words, I cannot say that I am good enough to get to heaven. This is where, I believe, the issue gets convoluted and confused. You are presuming that if we say that works are necessary for salvation, then we are saying that we are doing something to 'earn' it. Scripture clearly teaches that faith, repentance, hope, love, obedience, etc are all necessary for salvation.
“The context is in regards to judgement of believers in view of rewards, not in view of salvation.”
Among those rewards is salvation itself. Scripture speaks of eternal life as both a gift and a reward.
“Of those who do not oblige, they have to consider whether they are in the faith, if they are in the faith a lifestyle of repentance will follow. But they are not saved because they repented of their sin.”
I disagree. Jesus stated, “Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Perhaps we are talking passed each other with regard to ‘because’ or 'cause.' Faith and repentance are certainly instrumental ‘causes’ of salvation since obviously those who do not believe and repent will not be saved. So yes, it could be said that they are saved because they repented of their sin. You are confusing this with what the formal, efficient, and meritorious causes of our salvation; namely, the righteousness of God, His gratuitous mercy, and the atonement accomplished through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, respectively.
the false brethren are not my 'brothers' and 'sisters' they are children of there father the devil and his works shall they do. 'Gay and Lesbian' cannot be Saved while they are unrepentive, being an gay or lesbian that is celibate shows an unrepentive heart and no conversion. Be it 2 weeks celibate or 2 decades , they are not Born Again. They must be converted believe as little children, turning from sin unto Righteousness.
jbnb31691 doesnt use Scripture well at all, seems to talk with Authority only on inspection of what she said can you really see it. I dont know what seminary you go to but i have never went , i stay at home and Study with God.
And i can Judge you on your behaviour and the use of Scripture God tells me who is Saved , we all have to do that, who are really his children.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
igh-
Perhaps another time, then. My husband says it is time to put the kids to bed and I have a final on Bible doctrine in the morning.
Prophet-
Have a lovely evening. Until we meet again.
igh,
Your words are filled with anger, venom and spite. There is no love. The Spirit is not in your messages. Pray, my friend. Pray that He will give you wisdom in what you say. Pray for peace with your brothers and sisters. Let there be no division, but be in unity and one mind.
igh-
Yes as a matter of fact I would. Site the scripture that authorizes you to condemn me to hell.
jbnb31691 just blows smoke on this topic, comments on my posts but not on what i said! Everyone go back and read what i said and what jbnb31691 said in response. Obviously you are a wolf in sheeps clothing. I seen your kind before. AND I CAN JUDGE YOU , ITS SCRIPTURE HEATHEN. Would you like to debate that?
igh-
Only the Holy Spirit can testify to the authentic faith of another believer.
Jesus said, "“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Mt 7:1-2
The word "judge" here is judgement as to condemnation. He is not speaking about discerning truth or sin.
I am a stay at home mother of four and seminary student. How very grieved you must make the Spirit the way you attack your Brothers sand sisters in Christ. How quick you are to condemn based on a few posts on a website. I pray you repent for you will be condemed by the same measure. Only God condems and only God saves.
I know God and you, igh, are not Him.
igh,
And what do you base your misled opinion on?
jbnb31691 you are not Saved.
Prophet-
Excellent! Keep learning and praying. We are creatures in process and, as such, our sanctification moves us from err to truth. The reason Scripture is a progressive revelation is not because it is incomplete, but because our understanding is incomplete. As we move toward truth, God's glory is reflected in us. Our desire is that his glory would be reflected in every detail of our lives. Sadly we won't experience that beaty until we see Glory. And so we yearn for heaven and mourn sin, with the promise that we will be comforted.
I'm sorry jb. I thought you were directing that comment to me since it was written under my name. And I guess I should have said "I believe there's a difference between sin and practicing sin." It is a personal conviction that I'm still studying and praying about.
Basically, as you had mentioned about people who quit smoking, drinking, cursing, etc, etc. They have ceased from practicing sin. But they still sin. Let me clarify.
I quit cussing a long time ago. I quit practicing that sin. But every once in a while, when all the conditions are ripe...i'm exhausted from working a 15 hour day in 3 feet of snow, I'm hungry, my kids have been annoying the daylights out of me, and I haven't had my prayer time yet...and I'm driving down the road, and someone cuts me off. And I say a few choice words. I sinned, even though I've ceased from practicing that sin. Some may call it "making a mistake." Regardless, it's still a sin. See, I'm not a liar by habit or lifestyle, but I have fallen into that trap on ocassion. I have sinned, though I do not practice it.
I hope that it makes some kind of sense. Basically it's the difference between falling into sin, and doing it with intention.
Prophet-
Please site scripture that differentiates between "sinning" and "practicing sin."
My comment in regard to considering one's self sinles was directed toward igh.
ireneus-
"You said yourself in another post that as Christians we have the ability and are obligated to exhibit God's grace; well, what fo those who do not oblige?"
We are obligated to remain true to the context of the scriptures. Prophet is quoting scripture without considering to whom the text was written and in which age. Because we are saved by grace through faith and cannot add to the finished work on the cross, our works are evidence of saving faith flowing naturally, not flowing necessarrily. I did nothing to earn my salvation thus I can do nothing to lose it. We test ourselves to see if we are in the faith according to Paul's letter to the church in Corinth. "'Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?"
The context is in regards to judgement of believers in view of rewards, not in view of salvation. Of those who do not oblige, they have to consider whether they are in the faith, if they are in the faith a lifestyle of repentance will follow. But they are not saved because they repented of their sin. The word repent means "change of mind." They are saved in accordance with their repentance of what they believe of Christ.
As I said...there is a difference between sinning and practicing sin. I do not believe that we can completely quit sinning, but I believe that we can quit practicing sin.
Wow, jb. I WAS having a nice conversation with you, and then suddenly you turned. What in the world gave you the idea that I think I don't sin? I have said nothing, nor implied anything, to that effect. I know my sins. I number them. I face them daily. Many times they overwhelm me. But I keep up the good fight, and strive to reach the image of Christ.
igh-
Might I remind you that no one is may be removed from the presence of sin until glorification.
Prophet-
I believe I made that very clear, everyone sins, believers included.
And I might also remind you that Christ reserved his harshest criticism not for the sexually immoral, but for the self righteous. Apparently you are under the misconception that you no longer sin.
jbnb31691,
"We are saved by faith through grace alone, not by works so no man may boast of achieving his own salvation. You are requiring good works to add to the completed work on the cross for a man to be saved. This theology opposes salvation by through grace. Repentance of sin follows salvation and good works are evidence of faith, however neither are reqirements of salvation."
I agree that we are saved by faith through grace alone, but this does not preclude good works (or obedience). You said yourself in another post that as Christians we have the ability and are obligated to exhibit God's grace; well, what fo those who do not oblige? There are numerous scriptures which state that obedience unto righteousness is required.
jbnb,
I see your point. But your message comes across as saying the non-Christians can quit sinning altogether an be perfect without the Holy Spirit. True a person may quit smoking, or drinking, or looking at porn, but he will never be truly free from sin without the help of the Holy Spirit. He will always sin. It's human nature.
And there is a difference between sinning....and practicing sin.
You cannot be Gay celibate or sexing with men and be filled with the Holy Ghost. You must Change , not just stop having sex!! This is a True conversion unto God through Christ. Sorry but saying you stop drinking or looking at porn and saying im a good Christian now doesnt mean you Repented of it or Turned to Righteousness. In your heart you still are in Rebellion towards God. And anyone who says they are Gay yet celibate are damned. Gay is an Abomination whether they have sex or not. They are still in Rebellion. They must know that God has healed them completely because they asked for it, and no longer associate themselves as Gay or Lesbian in the slightest. You must Turn from sin that is Rebellion towards God. You must have the Holy Ghost and he will not inhabit someone who is not repentive of the sins they have done. Because they have not submitted to God in his Son Jesus the Christ for the payment of those sins.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 13:1 At that time some people were there who told Jesus about the Galileans whom Pilate had killed while they were offering sacrifices to God.
Luke 13:2 Jesus answered them, "Because those Galileans were killed in that way, do you think it proves that they were worse sinners than all other Galileans?
Luke 13:3 No indeed! And I tell you that if you do not turn from your sins, you will all die as they did.
Luke 13:4 What about those eighteen people in Siloam who were killed when the tower fell on them? Do you suppose this proves that they were worse than all the other people living in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:5 No indeed! And I tell you that if you do not turn from your sins, you will all die as they did."
Prophet-
You said that it is impossibe for unsaved people to shoose not to sin. This goes against human history. People quit smoking, drinking, cursing, clean up their finances, participate in ethical business practices everyday. And without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.
We all sin because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we sin. Those regenerated through the power of the Holy Spirit have been removed from under the authority of sin and placed under the authority of Christ. Christians have the ability and obligation to exhibit God's grace and wisdom for the world. We do not however have the power to condemn the world. We are commanded to judge sin. How else may we repent of ungodly behavior if we do not judge sin to be sin. No man is sinless. John wrote "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
igh-
"Gays that are celibate are not Saved."
Your theology is a bit scewed. We are saved by faith through grace alone, not by works so no man may boast of achieving his own salvation. You are requiring good works to add to the completed work on the cross for a man to be saved. This theology opposes salvation by through grace. Repentance of sin follows salvation and good works are evidence of faith, however neither are reqirements of salvation.
You are confusing justification with sanctification. Through justification the penalty of sin (second death) is removed and through sancitfication the power of sin is removed. Then in glorification the presence of sin is removed. We all bear responsibility in our own transformation; gays, gossips, and self righteous men included. You are correct that believers should never place themselves under the authority of men and women who knowingly surrender to a lifestyle of sin. But to say that gays cannot be saved is implying that the blood of Christ is not enough to cover sins against the body, what more then do you suggest Christ could have done?
msnchris70,
"They are running to our church so fast that I would not be surprised if the Pope allows for an Anglican Rite in the Catholic Church."
John Paul II already allowed a 'modified' Anglican Rite. There are only a few. Many Episcopal converts just come into the Latin rite. Search on Anglican Use Rite parishes.
But if I may clarify one of your statements.
You said "plenty of unsaved people choose to not sin", but that is impossible. For all have sinned. The Bible says that there is none righteous, no not one. For even the man that says he is good, and yet fudges a number on his tax returns, will always justify his action. And in his own mind he is sinless, though the truth is he is not. Some people who subscribe to Penthouse or Playboy think of themselves as good people. They don't believe they're sinning.
yes, djt,
Thanks for clearing that up. I had hoped that when I used the phrase "and do so because they want to be holy" that people would assume that I was talking about Christians. I know that there are some out there who would take what I said and misconstue it, either ignorantly or purposely, for their own agenda. As many who know me on here, I try to be as thorough and specific as possible. Unfortunately, this one got by. Thank you for your input. God bles you.
prophet,
If a person who is "gay" chooses to not act upon such urges, would that not mean that they are no longer "gay"? They may be tempted to choose to return to that sin, but just as I am not an adulterer unless I act upon such a temptation they are not homosexual unless they follow through.
I do not think you mean to convey that simply not participating in a certain sin means you are saved- plenty of unsaved people choose to not sin, but they yet refuse to confess Jesus as Lord.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/IA-james2.htm
Gays who, by choice, are celibate, nor in any sexual relatiions, and do so because they want to be holy, are saved. Same as a hetero who is not involved in any fornication or adultery, even though he may have the temptation and urges, is saved. Temptation does not make it a sin. If that were the case, then Jesus isn't the Son of God because He too was tempted, but yet did not succumb.
Gays that are celibate are not Saved. They have to Repent and Turn from sin unto Righteousness. Fearing God is the Beginning of Wisdom. They cannot be Gay and be Saved, they have to be Straight and God will help them to see that being Gay is Rebellion and Disgusting, also unnatural and heal them of that perversion. if they truely want it, they will ask for it. Any Church that has a gay pastor doesnt know the Bible nor the Spirit. They have to be Removed if they do not repent and Serve the Father in Spirit and in Truth. Get a wife and children would be a plus. Also they have to take the same stand the Spirit teaches them reach out but do not condone. Love in Jesus name but do not let our good compassion blind us to the real dangers of accepting evil for good. BE YE SEPARATE. What part of Be Ye Separate dont we understand???
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Jer 13:9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
Jer 13:10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
Isa 5:20 You are doomed! You call evil good and call good evil. You turn darkness into light and light into darkness. You make what is bitter sweet, and what is sweet you make bitter.
Isa 5:21 You are doomed! You think you are wise, so very clever.
Isa 5:22 You are doomed! Heroes of the wine bottle! Brave and fearless when it comes to mixing drinks!
Isa 5:23 But for just a bribe you let the guilty go free, and you keep the innocent from getting justice.
Isa 5:24 So now, just as straw and dry grass shrivel and burn in the fire, your roots will rot and your blossoms will dry up and blow away, because you have rejected what the LORD Almighty, Israel's holy God, has taught us.
This is just the kind of thing that is pushing faithful Christians of the Gospel out of this Episcopal Church. Hundreds of thousands, entire dioceses, parishes and traditional conservative groups
are returning to the Catholic Church in droves. They are running to our church so fast that I would not be surprised if the Pope allows for an Anglican Rite in the Catholic Church.
The Orthodox are also receiving many Episcopals. It may not be Catholic but the Orthodox at least have the seven REAL sacraments and a valid Priesthood and Apostolic Succession.
When push comes to shove, the Catholic Church will be morally steadfast.
A picture is worth 1,000 words. I can hardly believe it. It is one thing to sin and be broken over it--> "Blessed are those who mourn." There is blessedness and eternal hope for all who confess and renounce their sins. But I shutter to see that picture and all that it represents--> brazen, unrepentant defiance of God's design and plan, let alone this being done in the name of Christ!
This is totally unacceptable.! Not only is he and his partner on their way to a place of eternal torment but he is also a stumbling block for others christians and sinners alike. There is no doubt this world will see God's wrath and see it soon. Come Lord Jesus, come!
I know an Episcopalian minister who performs hundreds of weddings each year. They are all straight couples, one man and one woman, and he himself is married to a nice woman and they have 2 children. Some Episcopalians are Biblical and NOT open to the gay heresy that is against the clear teaching of the Bible.
Wow, five pages of posts since I got to my computer!
Shimobe: As a born and raised Episcopalian I know all too well that not only do they put up with it, they actually PROMOTE IT! Go to my blog: http://abondservantofjesuschrist.blogspot.com & read ''Conversations with an Episcopal Priest" to see what the more liberal side of the church promotes.
Stop-the-Madness: Just call her 'Jezebel'
troyg: If you are living in unrepented sin, you are not a Christian. The only gays and lesbians that are truely Christians are those that are celibate. AND...what we are doing here, it's not judging, it is discerning and the Bible constantly is calling us to be so.
hlerwin: If the OT & NT are 'outmoded' as you say, what are we supposed to go by exactly?
Chicago24: Let me guess, you are a modern day Episcopalian, aren't you?
Prophet: AMEN!!!!! (to your post on Mon. June 9, 2008 7:07pm)
Any person who condones any kind of sin is not a Christian.
I would be ashamed of myself if I was Gene Robinson. I would move to the wilderness and hope that the post office wouldn't forward my mail. I would be ashamed for anyone to ever see me again. Then I would beg God for forgiveness.
...but then again, maybe he doesn't even believe in GOD!
Jesus, while praying to God the Father, said,
"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth." John 17:17
hlerwin,
Not at all- although it is not for anyone posting here to decide as far as I know- certainly it is not for me to decide, but if it were I would be glad to continue the dialog. My point was that you seem to have a real attachment to your agenda while seeming to claim you do not which most people do, but as kboswell asked, what is it that you base your beliefs on? Since you appear to not believe in the absolute truth of the Word of God then my question is, What is the point?
I would liken this to an atheist's desire to shut Christians up- if the atheist is correct then when he fights against the proclamation of the Gospel he in essence is fighting against- nothing.
If you do not believe in the truth of the Word of God, what is it that you have that we should all believe in?
Again, it was not my point to say you are not welcome here, but if you do not turn to Christ fully and totally the day will come when you will feel truly unwelcome- this is why many people respond to you- out of truly caring.
"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' Luke 13:27
I was trying to answer kboswell's question: "What confuses me and others that have conversed with you is what do you draw your final truths on?" Please tell me if I should I should "not bother."
"Why bother?" Maybe I'm just not welcome here.
“I'll try later, folks.”
hlerwin,
I guess another good question would be, “Why bother”? What do you hope to accomplish if you are not trying to convince anyone of your point of view?
kboswell asked a very good question which was likely part of your response that was too long to get through, but what do you think you know that could possibly undo the Word of God?
It appears that hlerwin is part of the emergent church, where sin is relative to youir opinion of what sin is and evanglism is passe. He claims to follow Jesus, but when Jesus' final commandment was to go to all the earth and preach the gospel, what doe hlerwin do? What every other false chrstian does. Nothing, but criticize those that do. When true Christians want to live holy lives, and want their country to be God fearing and holy, what does he do? Criticize. From reading his post, I see that he is no more a Christian than David Koresh. And he spreads a false gospel...one that is not of God but of Satan. And we true Christians must step up and speak the Truth, so that none would follow the lie and perish.
'
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:15-16
I've tried splitting my 1,834-character (with spaces) answer to boswell and djt into 3 parts. Alas, no luck. I can only get real short messages through right now. I'll try later, folks.
4th try...Is something blocked?
We all live in sin.
Genisis 4:7: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
Satan assualts us, every day, on many different levels. He attacks our intellect. He causes us to question our spirituality. He traps us with hedonism. He converts us with political correctness. Paul tells us to put on the "Armor of God." The armor is the Word. The armor is prayer. The armor is worship. Those things combined give you shelter from the storm and strength in the face of peril. These things help us to master our sin before we are devoured by it. The first and upmost solution to sin, before you are able o wear the armor, is the acceptance of Jesus as your personal savior. The repentance and forgiveness in that acceptance is the cure for the malady that we all suffer from.
Let us not judge but pray. Jesus is the judge. He also rights the wrongs. Let us pray and seek guidance we need in these troubling times.
The Watch
.
djt0711 said:
"As to those trying to get you to believe as they do you are wise to be cautious- this is why I choose to turn to what God has to say. Yes, you can find truth all around you (“but there is truth in both”), but there is only one place you can turn to for truth that saves you from your sin- your sin, the end of which leads to death."
true words of wisdom.
“I certainly do not claim to be a prophet.”
hlerwin,
Unfortunately you do not get to choose some “middle ground” nor claim neutrality when it comes to life and what you have to say and what you believe:
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.” Matthew 12:30
As to those trying to get you to believe as they do you are wise to be cautious- this is why I choose to turn to what God has to say. Yes, you can find truth all around you (“but there is truth in both”), but there is only one place you can turn to for truth that saves you from your sin- your sin, the end of which leads to death.
For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Romans 10:16b-17
hlerwin,
What confuses me and others that have conversed with you is what do you draw your final truths on? If you don't believe the scripture to be relevant in modern society, then what are your truths based on. Is what you feel is right by your own understanding? If not, then what? I am not trying to bash you here, I just want to see where you're coming from on what you believe.
On another point, I do not equate Broadway songs with scripture -- but there is truth in both, don't you agree. "You've got to be carefully taught" is a line that has a clear message in it, wouldn't you say?
“...I guess I didn't see the love in your comments.”
Troyg,
He said, "Go and tell this people: " 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."
Isaiah 6:9-10
To djy0711: I certainly do not claim to be a prophet. In recent years I have come to realize that one of the things that irks me about some Christians (or socialists or Democrats or Republicans or pro-choice or whatever) is that these people are always trying to get you to believe the same way they do. I have never tried to talk anyone into believing as I do. God gave each person a brain, and he or she can make thise decisions. Sorry if I came off as if I were trying to proselytize or convince anyone.... I was just stating how I viewed these topics. Frequently, people lash back with such venom (not you, djy0711), that I wonder what has got them wound so tight.
"To simply quote Holy Scripture every time an opposing view is encountered is not going to win the day."
hlerwin,
You greatly misunderstand life and truth- the day does not need to be won by any of us- it is already won by the Lord and His resurrection is proof of this, but since that event is also detailed in the Word of God which you so blithely describe as "outmoded" maybe you do not believe in this either. This is a real and serious problem for you according to Romans 10:9
Many of those here who know the Lord through His Word and by the power of His Holy Spirit intend our posts not as an attempt to "win", but rather as an attempt to warn and to stand for the truth, something we are commanded to do and have to work overtime to do as we are surrounded by false prophets like yourself.
Maybe we should all revert to quoting from 40's and 50's musicals instead- now THAT will certainly win the day against the eternal Word of God . . .
"Some enchanted evening; you will see a stranger . . ."
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" Revelation 6:15-17
You are my friends if you do what I command. John 15:14
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Matthew 7:23
Gay is gay is wrong is wrong. These people are headed for hell and taking those they fool with them. Read the Word. Don't make it up as you go along. God loves these men and abhors their sin. May God forgive them when they repent of their ways.
RCbeliever writes:
"Man leaves wife and kids and shacks up with another man (adultery?), and eventually ties the knot with said man. So then, has Robinson been "living in sin" all this time? Or, is that a non issue according to the new "morality"? What's next - Robinson enters into polygamous union? This comedy of errors is merely another scene in The Sinking of the Titanic, a.k.a., the Episcopal Church."
Mathew 26:36-40 says 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
...I guess I didn't see the love in your comments.
Why is it that whenever someone's toes get stepped on, they cry like a baby "Who are you to judge me?" That has got to be the most pathetic line i've ever heard.
Who says I'm judging?
James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."
So, as I've said countless times...I'm not judging..I'm warning. Learn to differentiate the two.
The difference lies here: The person giving the warning calls it warning. The person receiving it calls it judging. I remember as a kid doing something I shouldn't. An adult would come up and say, "You better stop that or you're gonna get into trouble." But how do you think I took it? How do you think I reacted? I reacted like the immature child I was. "Who does he think he is, judging me like that? He thinks he so much better than me. yada yada yada." And I feel so justified in my anger......until someone in authority busts me. And STILL I will not admit that the other person was trying to warn me.
That's how so many sinners are today. Immature and self-seeking.
jrmants87,
You're right: God decides what's sin + what is not. But you don't have to wait to find out - He already told us in His Word. See 1 Cor. 6:9-10; those are some of the things that keep a person out of the kingdom of God. Seems like God made it pretty clear.
Man leaves wife and kids and shacks up with another man (adultery?), and eventually ties the knot with said man. So then, has Robinson been "living in sin" all this time? Or, is that a non issue according to the new "morality"? What's next - Robinson enters into polygamous union? This comedy of errors is merely another scene in The Sinking of the Titanic, a.k.a., the Episcopal Church.
Get a grip on it people. Two people have loved each other for a long time (much longer than many heterosexual marriages last) and have made the ultimate commitment they are allowed in their state. Instead of being pharisaical about this, remember what else Jesus said.... Let those who are without sin cast the first stone. Being judgmental is not acceptable to God, who will ultimately decide what is sin and what isn't at the final judgment. We are not God, though some of you sound as if you would be equal to God. Do you remember what happened when some angels wanted to do that? They were thrown out of heaven. Blessings.
hlerwin,
What? Should I quote Bill Clinton instead of the Bible?
hlerwin,
"And furthermore, much of ancient scripture (Hebrew, Christian or other) is pretty close to nonsense. It is certainly outmoded, which is the real reason most people don't follow its injunctions today. To simply quote Holy Scripture every time an opposing view is encountered is not going to win the day."
Yeah, this sounds like something that a Christian would say (eyes rolling here). I'm sure similar things have been said by those who cheat on the spouse, or those who steal, or those who take advantage of others, or those who murder; after all, those precepts are outmoded.
hlerwin,
"I'm a Christian (though perhaps not one up to your high standards)."
The question to you then is why are you not a Christian to the 'highest' standard? It was Jesus who said to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, to be holy as your heavenly Father is holy, to repent or you will likewise perish, to deny yourself and take up your cross and follow him, to not look back else you are not worthy to be his disciple, to go and sin no more, etc. etc. So, why would any of us think that we should set the bar lower?
hlerwin said:
"And furthermore, much of ancient scripture (Hebrew, Christian or other) is pretty close to nonsense. It is certainly outmoded, which is the real reason most people don't follow its injunctions today. To simply quote Holy Scripture every time an opposing view is encountered is not going to win the day. "
If Holy scripture is nonsense, then what moral guidelines do we have to live by? Do we just pick and choose what we want to believe?With this reasoning I can certainly see why you can't see this for what it really is,you have nothing to base your reasoning on but your heart, in which the prophet Jeremiah said is wicked,who can know it?
I stand corrected, Prophet. We used to have a uncle like you.
hlerwin,
Let me correct you. You are not a Christian as compared to the standard of God's Word.
I'm a Christian (though perhaps not one up to your high standards). Besides, I think many of you responding here have minds that are already closed to "sense." You might not hear it if you saw it or heard it. But I'm guilty, too. I hear what people say MOSTLY when they already agree with me, whether I'm right of wrong. It's a common human failing.
These are not isolated, "private" sins. They have an enoumous impact society.
I can get why non-believers discount biblical authority. But how can they ignore the massive devastation caused by the creation of the divorce culture from when we first tinkered with redefining marriage, and from the population implosion in other countries who are further down the path of radical secularism? It is a worldview without hope and does not even have the will to survive. In the end, they will have succeeded with the ultimate abortion - the death of their own population. How much worse does it have to get before they admit the impact of their polices?
hlerwin,
This is a Christian post....and you want US to move on....your logic, like your arguments, makes absolutely no sense.
I think "igh" and the rest of you are spending too much time thinking about other people's "sins."I imagine gays and lesbians think that what straight people do in bed is disgusting, too. And it seems that many of you simply delight in the fact that "god will git 'em!" Why not move on?
igh,
I know....but we practice longsuffering, love, grace, and mercy towards them. God will judge them. We must warn them.
Evil will recieve its due recompense.
its so DISGUSTING. Makes me want to heave at the thought of men with men.
kb,
Amen.
They would rather risk eternal hellfire than control their fleshly lusts. All the while hoping the twisting of the scripture will in some way justify their sin before God.
ktg,
Amen. We can accept homosexuals in church and love them, but they must realize that the truth must be presented untainted. By nature, I am a lustful, fornicating drunk. But I don't go all ballistic when my pastor preaches against those sins. Because I know he speaks the truth. I don't get all immature and act like a baby (like some people) and say "But..but..but..but...this is the way I am! God must want me this way."
For pete's sake, I wish people like that would just grow up and take responsibility for their own actions instead of making excuses.
I couldn't agree more with John 14-6. The Episcopal Church is apostate. Look at what has happened to them: first, they got rid of the "Comfortable Words" from the Liturgy. They are still found in Rite I, but few churches even bother with Rite I anymore. For those non-Episcopalians, the Comfortable Words are four passages of Scripture that presents the Gospel in a simple, straight-forward, and unmistakable way. Next, they ordained women as priests. Horrible. And now, of course, the last stage of their apostasy, homosexuals. I left the Church and am thankful I did. After struggling with whether to wait it out to see if there would be a split or not, I finally decided to leave and have never felt better.
I used to belong to the Episcopal Church for over 20 years. In all the Bible Studies, sermons, etc. homosexuality was not condoned, however, homosexuals were welcome in my churches. Years ago, an assistant pastor had had an affair with one of the lady members. He was given the choice to seek counseling or resign. He chose to resign. How can a church change its theology from one time to another time and situation. We chose to leave the Episcopal church, not because the Bishop was a homosexual, but because he had been given spiritual authority over the members. However one interprets the Bible is up to them and their own salvation, as for us, we believe that God has made His will clear on the issue.
Abomination. Utter abomination. They parade their sin before the church of God and call it "good". They are lost, and any God-fearing Christian man or woman should flee the Episcopal Church and sever all ties with this apostate denomination. This is an affront to God, and no Christian should be in fellowship with these apostates or accept any claim to authority by them.
It is all about bearing kids. Is it a coincidence that the countries who are elevating inherently sterile gay unions to the same level of traditional marriage are facing a "demographic winter"? Under the combined influences of gay unions, high abortion rates and cohabitation there are 40 countries that are literally dying off. If we see self indulgent pleasure as the main purpose of sex, we will die off as well. In a century much of Europe will be depopulated. So much for worrying about global warming, meteorites or other end times scenarios.
'Surely the great houses will become desolate, the fine mansions left without occupants" Isa. 5:9
Prophet,
No problem, that was actually a quote from hlerwin's previous post. I should have put parentheses(sp?) around it.
kb,
My apologies. I misinterpreted your post when you said " what kind of god would forbid this? We have read too much into scripture when it begins to make people have to live a life denying themselves any sexual pleasure. Something's wrong with this brand of "religion."
Some people are called to be celibate....Paul being one of them. Even in his letters he encourages people to be celibate like him. But God doesn't "demand" it of us. Paul does say that if you can't control your sexual urges, it's better to get married than burn in hell. Although, sometimes I think there's probably not much difference. I'm kidding of course. LOL.
kboswell and hlerwin,
Uh, prophet, I don't condone(the gay lifestyle) iin any way shape or form.
kboswell and hlerwin,
Let me ask you what I ask every other gay lifestyle proponent. Do you accept and support and encourage incestuous marriages among adults?
I just think that this is an embarrassment to all of Christianity, regardless of denomination. Perhaps the most difficult, ongoing part of conversion keeping these priorities in sequence:
1. What God wants
2. What I want
Let us pray for all those who struggle with this cross and believe that Jesus will give them the strength to live according to what God wants. Peace.
what kind of god would forbid this? We have read too much into scripture when it begins to make people have to live a life denying themselves any sexual pleasure. Something's wrong with this brand of "religion."
That's why God made man and woman. All parts are completely compatable, fit together like a glove. I also believe God is more concerned with our spiritual fulfillment than in our sexual gratification.
A.S.Mathew is waiting for a "child from the bishop and his wife?" Why do many Christians think that procreation is the main purpose of sex? Humans and even animals (God's creatures, right?) often take part in sex just for pleasure. God-given pleasure, even. Obviously, gays and lesbians experience much pleasure during sex. The equipment may not seem "ideal" to some of us, but if there is genuine pleasure, as well as intimacy and (especially in long-lasting commitments) a sense of being loved, what kind of god would forbid this? We have read too much into scripture when it begins to make people have to live a life denying themselves any sexual pleasure. Something's wrong with this brand of "religion."
troyg-
Christians cannot condemn the lost, for we are all condemned as enemies of a loving and perfect God. It is only by grace through faith that we are called "friend.' However, as believers we do judge sin and mourn sin. If we do not judge activity which is abhorant to God, how can we become sanctified through Christ and turn away from sin? You say that you love your partner, but if you love someone you do not participate in behaviour that will harm that person. Homosexual behaviour harms participants physically, emotionally and spiritually. Physically causing disease and cancer, emotionally causing depression (high rate of suicide among the homosexual community, and spiritually causing a brokenness in fellowship with God whom you offend through that behavior.
I like Chicago's twisted view of the Bible. It's like a breath for fresh air.....lthe kind of fresh air you get from standing downwind from a waste treatment plant. Unfortunately, his ignorance of the Bible is apparent in his post. I'm embarassed for him.
milla: Stop and think -- Did it ever occur to you that we do NOT consider a loving relationship between two people of the same sex as sin? The Bible does address specific sex acts between two people of the same sex, but nowhere in the Bible does it condemn a loving relationship between two people of the same sex.
The authors of the Bible (Paul in the NT and anonymous authors of the Hebrew texts) had no concept of sexual orientation anyway, so therefore, homosexuality is never even addressed in the Bible. And yes, the sex acts between two people of the same sex that Paul addresses are a completely different subject than homosexual orientation.
...so quick to condem....so hesitant to listen and try to understand....
troyg,
I do not condemn you, quite the opposite. If I were to condone what I feel the Word clearly points out as a sin,that would truly be hatred on my part.All I ask you is to study, and seek God in prayer. No one on this board has a Heaven or a Hell to put you in. You will ultimately answer for your own life as will I. Just make sure you do what is right, and don't lean on your own understanding, but trust in God. You only get one go round. I am sorry if I have offended you, and I pray God will move in your life.
Slaves of the last 100 years are so wer much much much different than the slaves mentioned in the bible. Recent slaves were based on race back then there was no race involved. Slaves of that time were merely a form of social status, usually a binding contract with someone they owed debt. These people usually entered into slavery on thier own not by being captured.
In actuality it still goes on today. Think about the military. It functioned much like those that were slaves in Jesus' time. The voluntarily enter, are required to do what the government says, are punished when they do wrong, and it is difficult for them to leave.
....so quick to condem....so hesitant to listen and try to understand....
I AM WAITING TO SEE A CHILD BORN OF THIS WEDLOCK OF THE BISHOP AND HIS WIFE.
GOD'S MERCY MAY BE RUNNING OUT SO SOON.
troyg,
You are truly blinded by your own sight. Sin is always "pretty" to the eye.
I can not believe this is being allowed! This is ridiculous. I believe that being gay, or acting on your feelings no matter if they are gay or other wise when god strictly talks about not doing them in his bible, is asking for trouble. How do you live with yourselves you hypocrites? How do you pick and choose what you want to listen to in the bible? A life of sin on your own is one thing, but to lead an entire congregation with your misconceptions, and lies, as well as your blatant disregard of scripture. HOW CAN YOUR LIVE WITH YOURSELF? If you had a gay affair once that would be totally forgivable, but when you know it is wrong and you are living in your sin, that is wrong and any one who truly believed in God would understand that, fight it and ask for his help and love, to get through and away from it. You need to pray to the real God not the one you have fabricated into being for your own intents and purposes. God sees, he hears, and he loves you, but you need to start listening to him.
As for the rest of his congregation: You have to be kidding me. How can you listen to a man who is telling you not to do drugs, do have sex out of wed lock and don't drink, when he is living a life with a man, pretending to be married, knowing GOD DOESN'T SEE IT! That is HORRIBLE!
Let’s uphold what is natural. Men with men have left the natural use of the woman. The opposite of natural use would be unnatural use. Men with men (and women with women) is an unnatural relationship (Romans 1:26, 27).
Why perish? “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt 3:2).
“Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man” (1 Corinthians 11:8, 9).
A relationship of man to man is each rejecting the woman that God has created for them.
A relationship of woman to woman is each rejecting the man whom God created them for. Homosexual relationships are in direct rebellion against God our creator. Take heed:
“For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry” (1Sa 15:23).
kboswell says:
"Where does the Bible condone slavery? It was written over 1900 years ago, we had slavery in America up until about 150 years ago. It still persists in some 3rd world countries.Wouldn't it make sense for Paul to speak to slaves as well as free men? Please give me scripture that says God absolutely condones slavery."
This passage, as well as Colossians 3:22 were used to justify slavery through the Civil War. Christians at that time used the Bible to justify slavery, much as Christians today use the Bible to justify hatred and bigotry toward homosexuals.
:As for being a slave, I am. I was bought by the blood of Jesus Christ. I owe Him my servitude until the day I leave this filthy earth behind."
I don't think this earth is "filthy" at all - it's God's creation, and it's beautiful. My relationship with my same-sex partner is God's beautiful creation to, and until you have walked in my shoes, you have no right to judge it (or to judge Gene Robinson's deep, abiding love of his partner).
As for being a slave, I am. I was bought by the blood of Jesus Christ. I owe Him my servitude until the day I leave this filthy earth behind.
Where does the Bible condone slavery? It was written over 1900 years ago, we had slavery in America up until about 150 years ago. It still persists in some 3rd world countries.Wouldn't it make sense for Paul to speak to slaves as well as free men? Please give me scripture that says God absolutely condones slavery.
troyg,
Are you not a slave to your own fleshly lust?
kboswell says
"Do yo think He will judge someone who lived in the 1500's any different from the way He would judge someone from today? There is only one thing that will stand forever. It's not political correctness or apostate doctrine, it's the true Word of God. "
So....Ephesians 6:5 says "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." ...so you also believe in slavery?
"To simply quote Holy Scripture every time an opposing view is encountered is not going to win the day."
You are correct, but not because it is outmoded as you say. It's because we as a people have turned away from God and believe our own foolish hearts as to how the world should be. Jesus said I am the same yesterday,today,and forever. Do yo think He will judge someone who lived in the 1500's any different from the way He would judge someone from today? There is only one thing that will stand forever. It's not political correctness or apostate doctrine, it's the true Word of God.
This is not to say that some people who believe every dot a tittle are not wonderful Christians. My wife is one of those, pretty much, and the fruits of the spirit are apparent in abundance. Still, Ithink she is too narrow on the topic of gay marriage. She a product of her Calvinist upbinging. I would not try to chnage her for the anything -- but her children (who are devoted to her and to me) do notshare this narrow view of "marriage."
One "problem" with any concensus here is that many people (including me) think the Bible is the revealed word of God -- but not the only revelation. And furthermore, much of ancient scripture (Hebrew, Christian or other) is pretty close to nonsense. It is certainly outmoded, which is the real reason most people don't follow its injunctions today. To simply quote Holy Scripture every time an opposing view is encountered is not going to win the day.
Well, I see those were mostly NT quotes. There's "outmoded," too, I think.
All those OT quotes seem so tribal and outmoded.
tpique1 says:
"I guess the "religious left" (that demographic that doesn't know God nor follows Him - they only carry the title) either ignores the obvious or they really are truly made ignorant and their minds darkened by their sin....You can decorate and dress up sin all you want, but it is still sin. Sin's only friend is death."
What about:
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Luke 6:37
It seems like you are doing quite a bit of judging ....isn't that God's job?
I guess the "religious left" (that demographic that doesn't know God nor follows Him - they only carry the title) either ignores the obvious or they really are truly made ignorant and their minds darkened by their sin. Read:
1Co 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, NOR ABUSERS OF THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are SANCTIFIED (This denotes the progressive and advancing process of purifying which succeeds regeneration in the Christian.) , but ye are justified (Your sins are pardoned), in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
The phrase " NOR ABUSERS OF THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND" in the Greek is: ἀρσενοκοῖτοι arsenokoitoi - Paederastae or Sodomites. Those who indulged in a vice that was common among all the pagans."
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
You can decorate and dress up sin all you want, but it is still sin. Sin's only friend is death.
hlerwin,
and one more:
Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.
Isaiah 5:20
hlerwin,
and again:
But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:5-10
My first cousin is a homosexual Christian. I guess taylormaed has not met her yet. When taylormaed meets her -- and many other homosexual Christians, many minds will slowly, ever so slowly, be changed, I believe. Amen to that......
hlerwin,
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Matthew 5:29
I may be in the minority here, but I think there is a parallel between the 1949 song from South Pacific and today's "homophobia" (for lack of a better word. The Broadway play received scrutiny for its commentary regarding relationships between different races and ethnic groups. In particular, "You’ve Got to Be Carefully Taught" was subject to widespread criticism, judged by some to be too controversial or downright inappropriate for the musical stage. Sung by the character Lieutenant Cable, the song is preceded by a lyric saying racism is "not born in you! It happens after you’re born..." Rodgers and Hammerstein risked the entire South Pacific venture in light of legislative challenges to its decency or supposed Communist agenda. While on a tour of the Southern United States, lawmakers in Georgia introduced a bill outlawing entertainment containing "an underlying philosophy inspired by Moscow." One legislator said that "a song justifying interracial marriage was implicitly a threat to the American way of life." Rodgers and Hammerstein defended their work strongly. James Michener, upon whose stories South Pacific was based, recalled, "The authors replied stubbornly that this number represented why they had wanted to do this play, and that even if it meant the failure of the production, it was going to stay in." (Much of this borrowed from wikipedia....)
there is no such thing as a homosexual christian. According to Old Testament and N ew Testament homosexuality is a sin. God hates the sinful behavior and loves the person. This Bishop must stand before a living God one day and give an account for his actions.
It is better for us -- and for these misguided people --to just spend their entire lives without any sort of sexual intimacy? Can't we all agree on this? Is that really asking too much of them? (I think so.)
To ask God to bless such a union is Blasphemney, And makes one a partaker in this sin. And at the sametime, I will pray that these are some how brought to their sences, If they will receive the Truth of Gods Word God will forgive. " If they will repent."
The Book of Jude is fulfilling right before our eyes. Is it just coincidence that Revelation is next?
Gene Robinson is a hero to many gay and lesbian Christians. He stands for what he (and we) know to be true - God bless them both. And those tuxes look....faaaaaaaaabulous...........!
Honestly, what a revolting situation. First off the idea of two men together, couple that with one being a "bishop", and couple that with the fact that there has been a moratorium placed on marriages by the Anglican church and yet even in the face of the Word of God, he continues to live a life of rebellion.
Brothers and Sisters reading this, I declare to you today, based on the witness of the Word of God, this man is an agent of the devil, a charlatan, and a phony. He is no Christian according to the book for First John Chapter 2:
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
This man is a liar, and he doesn't worship the same Jesus I and millions around the planet know. If ever there was a reprobate mind that I ever saw, it's this man. Wake up world. The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!
God have mercy on us!
without a doubt this "bishop" should be ousted. no questions asked. he is living in outright defiance of God's revealed will and has no right to be in a position of spiritual leadership. shame on the episcopal church for putting up with this debauchery.
I wonder if their first song to dance at the reception was, "I'm on the highway to He!!," by AC/DC.
Boo to the person who flagged whitestonename's prayer. It was a prayer I think we should all say everyday and I wish I would've copied before the imfamous flagger struck yet once again. Heh....
That’s a beautiful prayer whitestonename, AMEN!
As scripture says, all sin leads to death. If this kind of behavior is held, it won’t be long before the Episcopal Church comes tumbling down and only remembered in history. God won’t be mocked in these ways….
Father, please forgive us, the church, for our devaluing of the covenant of marriage that You established. Forgive us for our divorces, our fornication and adultery, our homosexuality, and our pornography. Cleanse us, Father, and restore to us the authority in prayer and civic action to restore marriage here in our nation to what you intended. Send forth your "Jonahs" to this nation that we might cry out in repentance with fasting and prayer. We love you and are trusting in your mercy and kindness that lead us to repentance. In Jesus' name.
Amazing. If an Episcopal priest left his wife and children to run off with another woman there would be outcry, censure and scandal. Since he ran off to shack up with his fellow sodomite, though, it's all okay. May God save the ECUSA.