Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Mon November 23, 2009

Church|Thu, Jun. 12 2008 04:27 PM EDT

Calif. Bishop Drives Gay 'Marriage' Momentum to Church

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

In a push to strengthen support for gay and lesbian persons, the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of California has initiated a process to move toward equality of marriage rites for same-sex couples.

The Rt. Rev. Marc Handley Andrus released a pastoral letter on Monday urging clergy to encourage all couples, including homosexual ones, to first be married in a secular service and then seek the blessing of The Episcopal Church as the California diocese works for the "full inclusion" of LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) people.

"The Diocese of California seeks to provide, by advocacy and example, a way forward for The Episcopal Church so that the marriage of same-sex couples will be a part of our official marriage rites, without distinction," Andrus wrote.

The Episcopal Church pledged last September not to authorize public rites of the blessing of same-sex unions, at least not until a broader consensus emerges in the global Anglican Communion – of which The Episcopal Church is the U.S. arm – or until the Episcopal General Convention takes further action. Conservative bishops, however, have criticized the U.S. body's response, claiming that same-sex blessings would continue in the dioceses that already engage in them.

Despite the pledge, leaders of the U.S. body, including its head, Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, called for "unequivocal and active commitment to the civil rights, safety, and dignity of gay and lesbian persons."

"Although The Episcopal Church does not have canonical rites for same-sex marriage, it is our goal that all couples be treated equally by the Church, as they are equally loved by God," Andrus said in his letter.

The California bishop said he is currently in the process of arriving at a "more studied, permanent answer for Episcopal clergy presiding at same-sex marriages in this diocese." The process includes forming a panel of diocesan clergy to make recommendations about how to move toward equality of marriage rites for all people and ultimately forming an official diocesan policy.

According to Andrus, the Diocese of California has been working for the rights of LGBT people for more than 40 years. Continuing the battle, Andrus said he will publicly state his opposition to a Nov. 4 ballot initiative that would overturn last month's California Supreme Court ruling that legalized same-sex "marriage," volunteer to preside at the thousands of same-sex "marriages" planned this summer, and publish advertising celebrating the high court's decision.

The ads would also invite same-sex couples to churches within the diocese for pre-marital counseling.

Meanwhile, many Christians and pro-family groups across the state have vowed to fight the ruling and vote in support of the November initiative to preserve traditional marriage.

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  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I'm a taker biggie daddy. But I agree with you.

    For example, King James: Jesus never said, "For Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory."

    This was an annotation Martin Luther had scribbled in the margin of his breviary.

  • Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wbmoore, you have an awesome knowledge of the Bible, every one of the verses you cited say it all. I do not know why this is even in question, or so called Christians and even entire denominations are turning against what is written.

  • Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I wrote:
    6. Your sin will eventually move from a personal hidden thing to a public thing, to a thing where you approve of others doing your sin.

    you replied: "have you considered taking the self righteous log out of your own eye."

    Romans 1:32
    32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

    God said that having homosexual sex deserves death (its a sin).

  • Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet, you wrote:
    "i want to live thru the one who lives inside me. i want to live the three commandments of love thru the graceof the holy spirit. i want to live a life of walking in the light."

    I think this is an awesome desire. I suggest you can not do so without obedience to God in the area of sex.

    Jesus said in John 14:23-24,
    23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    We've already seen some of God's words concerning homosexual sex.

    John wrote in 1 John 3:7-10,
    Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

    He's not talking about sex when he says love. He means wanting the best for the other. Wanting to have same gender sex is not loving, its selfish.

    The Christian life is about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him. We must love and obey.

  • Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I wrote:
    4. By saying that your thoughts on the subject are more important that God's thoughts on it, you are exchanging the truth of God for your own thoughts.

    You replied:
    "no one knows the thoughts of god."

    As I've said, we know His thoughts concerning sin. He hates sin.

    Leviticus 18:22
    22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

    Leviticus 20:13
    13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    Romans 1:26-27
    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    sexually immoral would include homosexual sex.

    Revelation 21:8
    8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

  • Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:08 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I wrote:
    3. By ignoring His word, you are being ungodly, and suppressing the truth.

    you replied:
    "i am suppressing nothing. i am speaking from my life experiences and my witness of the spirit.
    what witness are you speaking from? "

    You ARE suppressing the truth that homosexual sex is sin in God's eyes. When you see in the old testament, you say oh, that's in the old testament. When you see it in the new testament, you try to pretend its not Gods word. You will do anything to try to justify your behavior. You are suppressing the truth of what God has said.

  • Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:05 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I wrote:
    2. By refusing to accept what God has said about homosexual sex being a sin, you are refusing to honor God.

    you replied
    "you do not qualify that this is about what you think god said. i support your speaking your mind. but as to whether this is what god said, that will be worked out thru fellowship in the spirit."

    Jesus said in John 14:23-24,
    23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    Lets see what Jesus commanded.
    John 8:10-11
    10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

    The key is to not sin any more. Homosexual sex is sin.
    Romans 1:26-27
    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    God called women with women and men with men being unnatural and shameful, indecent, perversions.

  • Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:49 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Feet, thee words of God are given to us, and for that reason, you can say you know the thought of God concerning sin.

    "how does someone put their desires ahead instead with when their relationship embraces the fruit of the spirit, and worships christ as lord. how are these desires with when they bond in the same spirit as heterosexual which god approves. god is interested in the heart. is that not what is to be judged."

    God hates sin.
    Deuteronomy 12:31a You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates

    Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Malachi 2:16 “I hate divorce,” says the LORD God of Israel, “and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,” says the LORD Almighty.

    Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

    Deuteronomy 25:16 For the LORD your God detests anyone who does these things, anyone who deals dishonestly.

    Zechariah 8:17 “do not plot evil against your neighbor, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this,” declares the LORD.

    Luke 16:15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God’s sight.”

    Revelation 2:6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

    God hates sin, and actually Scripture says He hates those who does certain sins.

  • Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:44 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feet, you can't have it both ways. You dont want scripture quoted to you, then you want scripture quoted to here.

    Here is the scripture to which I was was referring.

    Romans 1:18-32
    18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
    21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

    24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

  • Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Hi Fellow Believers!

    Who here says every word in the Bible is true? Who here endorses 100% of the Bible, every statement as the wishes of God! If in the Bible, I can find an "order" of God, and if you do NOT 100% execute it, I consider you literalists to have LOST.

    Who here takes my challenge? Is there a soul here in this room that agrees 100% with every phrase and statement in the Bible? And will there be NOTHING I can find thats a commandment in the Bible that you not 100% completely agree with?

    This ought to be interesting. Any takers?

  • Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I flagged myself because my last message posted twice

  • Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    You said "i want to live the three commandments of love thru the graceof the holy spirit. i want to live a life of walking in the light. "
    You cannot truly live the three commandments of love without accepting those who wish to be involved in polygamy and incest marriages.

  • Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:22 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feet..

    Do you support polygamy and incestuous marriages?

  • Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    http://www.randomhouse.com/features/krakauer/


    http://www.psychpage.com/family/library/sib_abuse.htm

  • Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:38 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feet..

    Do you support polygamy and incestuous marriages?

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    my understanding is that god's word is christ who was in the beginning, who died for our sins and whom god put all things under.

    is there another?

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:33 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Yes, feet, you have put your own desires above God's. Homosexuals put their desire above God. Their desire to remain in sin overcomes their desire to be Christ-like. I gather that at one point you were on the right road in your love for others. But somewhere you love for others became tolerance of sin.

    Do you support polygamy and incestuous marriages?

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl, you can hyperbabble all you want, but it doesn't change God's Word one iota, I am very afraid you are becoming the fulfillment of the verse from Romans that says "professing themselves to be wise they became fools".

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    By putting your desires above God's you are putting yourself, a created creature, in the place of God in your life.

    how does someone put their desires ahead instead with when their relationship embraces the fruit of the spirit, and worships christ as lord. how are these desires with when they bond in the same spirit as heterosexual which god approves. god is interested in the heart. is that not what is to be judged.

    could satan powers and principalities embrace the fruit of the spirit. they could give the appearance but never the essence. how can anything that is not of the spirit embrace the fruit of the spirit?


    2. By refusing to accept what God has said about homosexual sex being a sin, you are refusing to honor God.

    you do not qualify that this is about what you think god said. i support your speaking your mind. but as to whether this is what god said, that will be worked out thru fellowship in the spirit.

    "if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another."


    3. By ignoring His word, you are being ungodly, and suppressing the truth.


    i am suppressing nothing. i am speaking from my life experiences and my witness of the spirit.

    what witness are you speaking from?


    4. By saying that your thoughts on the subject are more important that God's thoughts on it, you are exchanging the truth of God for your own thoughts.

    no one knows the thoughts of god..............

    Isaiah 55:8-10

    CONTINUED

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,"
    declares the LORD.

    9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    10 As the rain and the snow
    come down from heaven,
    and do not return to it
    without watering the earth
    and making it bud and flourish,
    so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater



    5. If you want to sin and ignore God, you are certainly free to do so. God will eventually give you more and more of it, until you reap what you sow. When anything takes the place of God in your life (whether its a TV, a job, a person, yourself, your desires, your fears, money, fame, a carved idol, etc), then you are sinning. If you continue to do so, you are hardening your heart. God will eventually give you over to that sin - He will eventually harden your heart.

    i want to live thru the one who lives inside me. i want to live the three commandments of love thru the graceof the holy spirit. i want to live a life of walking in the light.

    you really need to annotate your comments. these comments neither resemble the gospel and make little sense.



    6. Your sin will eventually move from a personal hidden thing to a public thing, to a thing where you approve of others doing your sin.

    have you considered taking the self righteous log out of your own eye. again please annotate.



    7. And your sin will cause you to do other unrighteous things.


    same as above

    CONTINUED

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Now, this goes against what Christ said were the two greatest commands because if you truly loved God OR yourself, you will love God with all your strength, mind, and spirit. You would be obedient to GOD rather than thinking your thoughts and feelings should take precedence over what God has said.
    here again , this is your speaking about obedience to what you think is godt. your lack of annotation supports the fact that this is your opinion.
    But instead, you choose to argue and justify rather than Love and Obey.


    my intent is to seek the truth. that is why i make no accusations. i have no interest in them. my witness is that homosexuality is a minor issue. what is more important is that christendom is still attempting to embrace the new covenant. church history makes that evident.

    there is no incident, where believers chose to stand on the the understandings of the old relationship to the written code that ever turned out to be life giving and of christ.

    this effort to disenfranchise homosexuals belongs in the group that includes slavery being sanctioned by god, denying the vote to women because they initiated the fall of man in the garden of eden, 2000 years of antisemitism, because association with the crucifiers of christ could denigate ones own relationship with god, indulgences were valid because it replicated the sacrifices of the old testament, christians now being the new chosen people.

    The essence of any habitual sin is rebellion and selfishness. You put your desires above God, His Word, and His desires for you. You place yourself in the position of God.

    The 'spirit of homosexuality' is one of selfishness - not love of GOD.



    you reasoning is this my opinion of what is god., and so any thing that disagrees with my opinion is selfishness and disobediece to god.

    the reason you dont discuss the spirit of homosexuality. is because you believe god made a regulation about homosexuality being a sin, and believers should acknowledge the regulation and obey it.

    my point is that our relationship to god is thru his son under whom god put all things under his authority. and that he leads us thru the spirit of his son..................in essence he leads us by the spirit. the law making us conscious of the love he calls us to......................again being spirit.

    so in the issue of slavery, god showed how it came against loving ones neighbor as oneself. on the issue of women's vote, thru love of neighbor all realized the equality of the sexes, on the issue of antisemitism, in loving our neighbor all realized that god loves all and he blesses all who seek him, on the indulgences thru the love neighbor it became evident that what was given the jews was not recinded that they were still the chosen people, and thru love of god that only from what came from heaven could unite us with god.

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    John 6:27-29
    "27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

    29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."


    There's some works that willl get you to heaven.

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The thing about homosexuality is, yes, it doesn't necessarily affect others (though my money pays for all the diseases that all these sexual sins...which is anything other than one man and one woman....brings to our world...so in actuality it does affect everyone.), but even just as important, it separates your from God.
    Because the same could be said for lying. Lying is a sin. The Bible doesn't separate "white lies" from "real lies". There is no difference. A lie is a lie, and it is a sin. Even when you do it to "keep from hurting the other person." Lying is a sin. Period. Ask my wife, she'll tell you that I'm extremely honest. I'm not mean about my honesty...I do use tact in certain situations.

    Quit trying to justify sin to save your fragile ego. Christianity holds no room for egos and pride and selfish wants.
    "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind."

    Homosexuals who hang onto their sin under that banner of love and tolerance are simple too lazy to change.

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    You forget the first commandment which supercedes your selfish desires. To love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, and mind. If you call homosexuality acceptable you are not loving God who calls it contemptible. Because you are disagreeing with Him.

    So, do you support polygamy and incestuous marriages, feet?

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:48 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feet,

    you need to read fully and carefully. I answered exactly your disagreements.

    In Romans 1:19-32, God called sex with people of the same gender sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, indecent, and perversion, and something that ought not to be done.

    1. By putting your desires above God's you are putting yourself, a created creature, in the place of God in your life.
    2. By refusing to accept what God has said about homosexual sex being a sin, you are refusing to honor God.
    3. By ignoring His word, you are being ungodly, and suppressing the truth.
    4. By saying that your thoughts on the subject are more important that God's thoughts on it, you are exchanging the truth of God for your own thoughts.
    5. If you want to sin and ignore God, you are certainly free to do so. God will eventually give you more and more of it, until you reap what you sow. When anything takes the place of God in your life (whether its a TV, a job, a person, yourself, your desires, your fears, money, fame, a carved idol, etc), then you are sinning. If you continue to do so, you are hardening your heart. God will eventually give you over to that sin - He will eventually harden your heart.
    6. Your sin will eventually move from a personal hidden thing to a public thing, to a thing where you approve of others doing your sin.
    7. And your sin will cause you to do other unrighteous things.

    Now, this goes against what Christ said were the two greatest commands because if you truly loved God OR yourself, you will love God with all your strength, mind, and spirit. You would be obedient to GOD rather than thinking your thoughts and feelings should take precedence over what God has said.

    But instead, you choose to argue and justify rather than Love and Obey.

    The essence of any habitual sin is rebellion and selfishness. You put your desires above God, His Word, and His desires for you. You place yourself in the position of God.

    The 'spirit of homosexuality' is one of selfishness - not love of GOD.

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    your answer is to repeat verses of scripture. but you cannot answer how the words of those verses say homosexuality is a sin.

    and you cannot answer what is the spirit of homosexuality that it would come against loving ones neighbor as oneself.............................as with murder, slander, or theft.

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:03 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    John taught the that obedience was required of a Christian as well:
    1 John 3:7-10,
    Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

    Its about being who God wants you to be. Its about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him.

    But if you don't obey, then you don't love Him. You are breaking the greatest commandment. This will eventually lead to eternal death.

    Paul wrote in Romans 6:12-16
    12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

    So will you be a slave to your desires or a slave to obedience to Christ? if you say you love Christ, then you must obey.

    As John said in 1 Jn 3:10,
    10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:02 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Let’s say that you feel sexual attraction and even love for someone of the same gender. Let’s further posit that you want to marry this person. How can that be against the spirit of what Christ said were the two greatest laws, to love God and love others as yourself?

    The answer is in Romans 1:19-32. Let me break it down:
    1. By putting your desires above God's you are putting yourself, a created creature, in the place of God in your life.
    2. By refusing to accept what God has said about homosexual sex being a sin, you are refusing to honor God.
    3. By ignoring His word, you are being ungodly, and suppressing the truth.
    4. By saying that your thoughts on the subject are more important that God's thoughts on it, you are exchanging the truth of God for your own thoughts.
    5. If you want to sin and ignore God, you are certainly free to do so. God will eventually give you more and more of it, until you reap what you sow. When anything takes the place of God in your life (whether its a TV, a job, a person, yourself, your desires, your fears, money, fame, a carved idol, etc), then you are sinning. If you continue to do so, you are hardening your heart. God will eventually give you over to that sin - He will eventually harden your heart.
    6. Your sin will eventually move from a personal hidden thing to a public thing, to a thing where you approve of others doing your sin.
    7. And your sin will cause you to do other unrighteous things.

    Now, this goes against what Christ said were the two greatest commands because if you truly loved God OR yourself, you will love God with all your strength, mind, and spirit. You would be obedient to GOD rather than thinking your thoughts and feelings should take precedence over what God has said.

    But instead, you choose to argue and justify rather than Love and Obey.

    Christ is only the savior for those who trust in His saving work -- and if He is, then they will obey Him, If they do not obey, then that is evidence that He is not their savior.

    Hebrews 5:9,
    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    What does the Bible say about it?
    Romans 1:19-32
    19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.



    Note that God called sex with people of the same gender sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, indecent, and perversion, and something that ought not to be done.

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    star2, thanks for that info, have a blessed day and week, believer

  • Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer

    feetxxxl has been preaching his homo message since at least last Sept or Oct. Conservative Christians who hold to Scripture have debated him and answered his questions over and over again. He is not interested in what Scripture so plainly says about gay sex.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl, it is apparent that you don't want to hear the truth and you are manipulating the Word of God to allow you to believe that the sexual practices of the homosexual lifestyle are not a sinful practice or lifestyle. But God's Word is clear both the Old and New Testament alike God condemns the sexual practices of homosexuality. The New International Version, the New King James Version, and the Holman Christian Standard Bible along with every other reliable translation of the Bible use the word homosexuality in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and all share that God condemns the sexual practices of homosexuality and if you would read any reliable commentary they all agree that Paul was talking to the sin of homosexuality in Romans as well.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    Do you support polygamy and incestuous marriages?

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Feet,
    Romans 1. I know you'll argue til you're blue in the face, but you can't change the truth. Homosexuality is a sin. The Od Testament agrees.
    Jesus said that marriage was between one MAN and one WOMAN. So even He knew that anything other than that was against the nature of God.
    Justify how you want, the truth remains.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet

    i see no words in scripture that say homosexuality is a sin, and i see no spirit in homosexuality that comes against loving ones neighbor as oneself.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer

    now you can see that my questions do not get answered

    no ......ive not seen where the words of scripture say homosexuality is a sin. and if you can explain how (malebed) and shamebased lust and the abandonment in romans1 has anything to do with homosexuality you will be the first

    the point is, that the reason for the acceptance of homosexuality being of the spirit of christ is that believers have witnessed that the spirit of this acceptance is an expression and an affirmation of the spirit of loving ones neighbor as oneself.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    It's amazing that I can still love my neighbor and tell them they're sinning. James 5:19-20

    "19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

    20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

    So, by me warning the sinner of their ways is loving. The same way that someone loved me enough to warn me of my sin. So...I must be loving my neighbor as myself. Interesting.

    It appears your idea of "loving" your neighbor is to let them do what feels right. How about this? Love your children as you love your neighbor? That sounds good right? So when your child wants to play hopscotch on the highway because it sounds like fun, you're gonna let them? Afterall, it's who they are, and who are you to tell them they're wrong?
    But, you say, they are just children. They don't know any better. So are we, my friend, so are we. When it comes to spiritual matters we are God's children. And we don't know any better. The only difference is that a 5 year old doesn't have the same capacity to justify his behaviour like we do. That's what makes our behaviour so much more dangerous.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl, Hebrews clearly states that we are no longer obligated to practice the sacrificial laws because they were fulfilled when Christ died on the cross and in fact the sacrificial laws were simply the Jewish people showing their belief that God would one day provide the perfect sacrificial Lamb who would pay the price for the remission of all sin past, present, and future and God kept His promise when He allowed His only Son, Jesus to be that sacrificial Lamb. And in fact it was their obedience to the sacrificial laws that showed their faith in God that He would send the Promised Messiah and that is what God used to determine their eternal destiny prior to the arrival of the Promised Messiah. Their sacrifices were the indicator of their inward faith which saved them and allowed them to enter Abraham's Bosom prior to the finished work of Christ on Calvary and that is why Abraham's Bosom is unoccupied since Christ returned to the Father, He went and brought those home to heaven who were saved prior to His finished work on Calvary. Yes, the entire law can be summed up in the Great Commandment, but the question I have of you is do you or do you not believe that God's Word clearly condemns the practices of homosexuality and if you don't how do you justify that view since even in the New Testament they are condemned in Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Timothy 1:8-10?

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer
    where is there scripture that says we are to keep this part of the old covenant and not this part.
    pauls speaking is about the whole covenant...........".that which is deemed old becomes obsolete and soon passes away" there is no distinction about parts.

    my point is that if we live the three commandments of love what part of the old coveant is not covered by them?

    which law or regulation in the old covenant is not covered by three commandments


    what is your understanding......led by and serve of the spirit

    .......not have the old relationship to the written code


    by paul saying that loving ones neighboras oneself is the summation of all the law and under the new covenant we are led by the spirit. he is saying that under the new covenant of christ anything that is sin is that which comes against this commandment.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    You said "do we follow the old regulation of not wearing mixed fabric, or not doing household chores on the sabbath. of course not, then why to we follow the one about homosexuality, or reenforce it with a new regulation of our own."....Yes, why do follow the old regulation about murder, lying, honoring your mother and your father, incest, etc, etc....
    Let's just do what you do. If it feels good, it must be good.

    The way you were born and the way God wants you to be are two different things. It's just the people who are too lazy to change that argue the loudest for their sin.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl, "Sould we sin that grace may abound? May it never be!" The bottom line is what you want vs. what God wants. God wants one man and one woman in marrige. He started it that way. He enforced it in the Old Testament. Jesus repeated it in Matthew 19. Paul condemed it. What more do you want? It's wrong! The Bible is consistant from beginning to end.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Paul in both Romans and Corinthians condemns the practices of homosexuality, period. You can't say that's Old Testament and no longer relative. The laws that the writer of Hebrews was speaking to were the sacrificial laws which were fulfilled in Christ on Calvary and as a result we no longer have to abide by them, based on your logic since the 10 Commandments were written in the Old Testament we no longer have to obey them, but Christ says if you love Me you will obey my commandments and He summed up all the commandments by giving us God's Great Commandment, note He summed up not did away with. The bottomline is if a person is willfully choosing to live in sin and refuses to repent of that lifestyle, to include the homosexual lifestyle, regardless of how many times they said the believers prayers, were baptized, or joined a church they are as lost as lost can be and until they repent of that lifestyle and turn to Christ to release them from that lifestyle they will remain lost and seperated from God.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    your standing on regulation that is bereft of any acknowledgement of spirit or fruit of the spirit is the old relationship to the written code which paul says we no longer have in the new covenant of christ,where we are led and serve of the spirit.

    it is the same relationship where believers refrained from wearing mixed fabric, eating shellfish and doing household chores on the sabbath.

    hebrew8 says what is deemed old(in regards to covenant) is obsolete and soon passes away.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl, I not sure what point you're trying to make in this long disertation, but if you would go to my 4:27PM blog you will see that the Word of God clearly addresses the fact that if a person is willfully living in sin and that person refuses to repent of that sinful lifestyle, that person is not saved and the Scriptures in both the Old and New Testament condemn the practices of the homosexual lifestyle, so if some one professes to be saved and willfully continues to practice the sins of the homosexual lifestyle and refuses to repent of those sins that person is not saved, but still lost in their sin.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl

    You do not know God nor do you know the Word of God.

  • Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    1 John 3:6
    No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.


    1 John 3:9
    No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

    1 John 5:18
    We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

    there are among you those who have brothers, friends, neighbors, coworkers who are gay. some of you see them every day. do you withdraw from fellowship out of regulation? because paul says we are no longer led by the old relationship to regulation as in the old covenant but are instead are led by the spirit.

    do we follow the old regulation of not wearing mixed fabric, or not doing household chores on the sabbath. of course not, then why to we follow the one about homosexuality, or reenforce it with a new regulation of our own

    if 1john is correct then those who are our friends, neighbors etc are repeated sinners, and cant be in christ. if they are not in christ then they are filled with shame, and live lives that are without the fruit of the spirit. if they are repeated sinners there is little love in their hearts and they carry a spirit of denial, deception, or deceit along with self hatred and self loathing.

    like i said, in christ we are now led by the spirit. so if the above is not true, and in additon they are devout believers in christ, and praise his name................is that not further evidence that homosexuality is not a sin?


    that is why i continue to ask what is the spirit of the essence of homosexuality and how does it come against loving your neighbor as yourself


    Matthew 19:19
    Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "


    Mark 12:31
    The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."



    Mark 12:33
    To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."




    Romans 13:9
    The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."



    Galatians 5:14
    The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself.

  • Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feelxxl, what questions of yours have not been answered, what I've noticed is that many of them have been but you negate the answer because it doesn't fit your worldview of what you think the answer should be, so if I'm wrong in that assessment then once again what are your questions?

  • Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ive consistently witnessed sin in attempts to validate an interpretation of romans 1, in over the top explanations about homosexuals and characterizations, that border on false witness, that have no resemblance to those i love and witness to.

    in my own experience, my understanding is that someone else's sin can never take away my peace. but, that when i loose my peace and step away from the spirit it is not about my perception of anothers sin but about me and my own sin.


    in the discussion of homosexuality, i have encountered accusation after accusation, which to me is evidence that my words are of christ, with further evidence in that no one can answer my questions.


    surely if my words were not of christ, my questions would have long since been answered.

    and it is not only here on christian post, where i am constantly erased, but in a 40 page question and answer on catholic forum, as well and with bob ellis on the dakota voice, and with rik on" the journal of a battling christian?", and virtue on line where i have now been denied access,

  • Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Paul strongly warned about people who bring "another gospel". The Episcol church has been doing same sex "unions" for decades. They use the Bible as a set of recommendations instead of the authoritative word of God. Their own actions judge them.

  • Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feelxxxl, your 100% correct if a person who claims to be a Christian continues to willfully LIVE in sin then they are not nor have they ever been a Christian at best they had an emotional experience or simply accepted some facts about Christ or even worst simply by saying a prayer think they got a get out of hell free card, but if they did not repent, turn from their sin by having a change of attitude, change of affection, which led to a change of behavior they have never had a genuine conversion experience. Yes, even as a Christian we still sin but we are no longer a slave to sin nor do we desire to practice our sinful lifestyle any longer. And for some depending on the sinful lifestyle they may have been a part of the seperation from that lifestyle may be difficult, but the good news is that is why God indwelt us with His Holy Spirit to enable us and empower us to break free of that former lifestyle, but if the person has no real desire to be set free from that sinful lifestyle then that person has never truly experienced real salvation.

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