SAN FRANCISCO (AP) – Dozens of gay couples planned to rush down to their county clerk's office Monday evening to be among the very first to say "I do" under the historic court ruling making California the second state to allow same-sex “marriages.”
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(Photo: AP Images / Eric Risberg)Drinks are laid out by Hornblower Cruises for visitors to a special wedding pavilion at the Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Pride Business Expo in San Francisco, Tuesday, June 10, 2008. The ruling by the California Supreme Court to legalize gay marriage in the state could give a big, sudden boost to California's sputtering economy. Thousands of same-sex couples from across the nation expected to converge on the state when the decision takes effect June 16. Hotels, restaurants, florists and other wedding services are reporting a flurry of business.
The May 15 decision by the California Supreme Court was set to take effect at 5 p.m.
While Mondays are not exactly a big day for weddings, at least five county clerks around the state agreed to extend their hours to issue marriage licenses, and many gay couples planned to get married on the spot.
The really big rush to the altar in the nation's most populous state is not expected to take place until Tuesday, which is when most counties plan to start issuing marriage licenses to gay couples. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of couples from around the country are expected to seize the opportunity to make their unions official in the eyes of the law.
Local officials will be required to issue licenses that have the words "Party A" and "Party B" where "bride" and "groom" used to be.
A conservative Christian legal group asked a state appeals court to block the weddings, but the move was given little chance of success. California's high court rejected a previous request for a postponement.
In San Francisco, where Mayor Gavin Newsom helped launch the series of lawsuits that led the court to strike down California's one-man-one-woman marriage laws, workers got ready for the crush of couples by setting up a satellite office in the lobby of City Hall.
Newsom planned to preside at the wedding of lesbian rights activists Del Martin, 87, and Phyllis Lyon, 84, the only couple scheduled to receive a marriage license in the city on Monday. As of Friday, nearly 620 couples had booked appointments to obtain licenses at San Francisco City Hall over the next 10 days.
Clerks elsewhere around the state reported nowhere near as high a demand but said they were training volunteer marriage commissioners to officiate at civil ceremonies in anticipation of a surge in business.
Unlike Massachusetts, which legalized gay “marriage” in 2004, California has no residency requirement for marriage licenses, and that is expected to draw a great number of out-of-state couples. The turnout could also be boosted by New York state's recent announcement that it will recognize gay “marriages” performed in other jurisdictions.
A UCLA study issued last week estimated that half of California's more than 100,000 same-sex couples will get married over the next three years, and an additional 68,000 out-of-state couples will travel here to exchange vows. The study estimated that over that period, gay weddings will generate some 2,200 jobs and $64 million in badly needed tax revenue for the state, which is ailing financially.
Some of those out-of-state couples are likely to demand legal recognition in their home states, setting the stage for numerous court battles.
However, some couples may wait to tie the knot because of a proposed constitutional amendment on the California ballot in November that would undo the Supreme Court ruling and ban gay “marriage.”
Amid the preparations, some religious leaders and conservative activists objected to the social change unfolding around them. The seven bishops of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles issued a statement Monday reiterating the Roman Catholic Church's position on same-sex “marriage.”
"The church cannot approve of redefining marriage, which has a unique place in God's creation, joining a man and a woman in a committed relationship," the bishops said.
Although government officials cannot legally withhold marriage licenses from same-sex couples, the clerks in comparatively conservative Kern, Calaveras and Butte counties last week stopped performing weddings altogether.
Among the reasons they cited were concerns that the increased demand would overwhelm their staffs and endanger the security of the election equipment they also oversee as part of their jobs.
Robin Tyler, 66, and Diane Olson, 54, who like Lyon and Martin were among the two dozen couples who served as plaintiffs in the litigation, also were scheduled to get “married” on Monday afternoon. The Los Angeles County clerk agreed to issue them a marriage license a day ahead of the general public in recognition of their role in the case.
"The word `marriage' is important to me to this day because marriage is a universally understood word," Olson said. "Robin is a different relationship to me than any other relationship I've had in my life. She's my special person."
Associated Press Writer Laura E. Davis in Los Angeles contributed to this story.
"A UCLA study issued last week estimated that half of California's more than 100,000 same-sex couples will get married over the next three years, and an additional 68,000 out-of-state couples will travel here to exchange vows." Icky poo. Nasty. They think playin house makes em normal and acceptable?
yeah, I noticd that. Luckily, their links from the various categories do have have links to recent articles.
Yeah, and I had a number of CP articles bookmarked, but now I can't access them through my bookmarks. I have to go to the main page and do a search for them through the archives.
hlerwin, No, I don't recall you joking about abortion.
True! And the loading up of the page is way too long. There are obviously some bugs in their new structure
The delete function is fine, rolln4, but "November 30, 1999?!?"
Congrats to CP on putting a new "delete" feature for posting. Now we don't have to "flag ourselves when we find mistakes in our posts.
Thank you, Prophet and wbmoore. I will try your tips. I don't cut and paste my own text, though I sometimes will do that from some other source, but I use the double dash a lot. I will avoid that. Also, wb, I hope I was not the one who tried to be "amusing" about abortion. I would never try that with a topic that I consider among the very most serious (much more serious than same-sex marriage, for instance). If I made some sort of remark that seem an attempt to be amusing, I apologize.
hlerwin,
I've noticed that when I try to post a message that has like a double dash in it, it will come up as forbidden.
hlerwin,
Maybe the editor you use puts in some characters for the newline/line-break that is not translated properly upon cut and paste. Try it without hitting enter (all in the same paragraph). that might help.
As for "baiting", I suppose I should have expounded further upon my use of the term. I do not like reading posts intended to upset people. Baiting in terms of trying to elicit a specific reaction is not in itself something I dislike - in fact, I use it sometimes when I teach. But baiting to elicit what appears to be for the sole purpose of getting under someone's skin, to offend, or to hurt, IS something I find offensive. Also as I age, and as my children age, I find I care more and more about the topic of abortion - I do not find the topic amusing in any way. And when it is used to bait someone in a negative way, I find it offensive.
rolling4him,
Hey, it's great to see you too. Sorry I didn't respond to your post. I got sidetracked, and then ended up going to bed. I work long days with little sleep so sometimes it happens. LOL. I hope to talk to you some more. TTYL
That's THREE messages w/o "Fobidden" (four if this one goes through). I think I'll go mow the grass anyway. I'm not going to fall for this! After all, I've got my spiritual armor on. (kidding)
Would you guys say that is Satan? (kidding......) But it IS tempting to make more -- and LONGER -- posts now!
Hmmmmmmm.......My longer message went through. That's how we are lured in, isn't it?
So......my 2nd message was also cut in fourths. What gives? My laptop is new, and my DSL(?) is OK, far as I know. I even changed from Explorer to Mozilla. I bet CP can do nothing about this. If this post does not go through, I am going to to some mowing for a while! Speaking of "offensive!" Technology is more offensive that you fellows.
Actually, I don't think "flattery" would turn wb's head, anyway, do you?
It's just that I thought wbmoore's posts were very helpful. And he seemed to have left.
Nor am I beyond "baiting."
New comment (in thirds?): I just reread the posts after I left last night. To biggie and roll4: I was NOT offended. I hope I'm not that sensitive.
So....I cut that message in fourths. Why would a message 4 times longer that these last 4 posts not go through?
I have told my fellow church members for a long time that our elders are not gray-bearded enough.
not only was the comparative form of "old;" that is, "elder," but that in its root "presbuteros" means "gray-bearded."
-- I read that "presbuteros" not only was the comparative form of "old;" that is, "elder," but that in its root
Very strange. I get "Forbidde" again. I will cut my message in thirds:
Somewhere -- years ago (and I've never been able to find the passage again!)
Wow! It went through! Here's the rest....
Another try......
wbmoore wrote: "Additionally, many people are put in positions of leadership before they have matured in the faith."
One last thought before I go to bed -
As we banter with our non-believing friends and quasi - Christian friends, it will always be my prayer that we can love them as we really should. I'm grateful that the unbelievers come to this site to converse with us. We've missed it if we can't love them - we'd be just a resounding gong I suppose. :)
I miss biggie ..... LOL
I put out the bait.... LOL
wb -
Yes, it may have been abortion. Truthfully, I'm not sure what hler was referring to has he seems to have left the forum. Either way, he/she didn't care for biggie and my interaction.
Baiting is a great way to bring in great perspectives if used wisely.
rolln4him,
hmm. I came out with guns blazing? I'm sorry it seems that way. I don't THINK it was pride that caused me to flag you. I think it was the abortion remark - I suppose its a more sensitive spot than I had thought.
sorry once again.
Hey proph! Good hearing from you.
wb -
I love you as my brother obviously, but if we flagged EVERYTHING that was "offensive, antagonizing and rude" on this site then we'd have little to look at on these forums.
Moving on.....
What's wrong with baiting? I do it all the time. Usually in a more subtle way though. LOL.
wb -
I'm a bit baffled by your comments. You jumped into posts that was not related to you or hlerwin's posts. I think hlerwin actually "baited" you. He/she gave you a flattery remark and you came in with sword ablaze. Watch your pride brother.
rolln4him,
I know biggie and his ilk are like that. I sort of expect it from him. But from you, given what I have read of your posts, I guess I expected more.
In Him,
WB
wb -
I know it's not in your character to "flag" and it certainly wasn't a major "flag", but I hope you read the context from which it came as I was responding to biggie - as in other forums. Biggie and I have been "baiting" each other and in some cases a tongue in cheek sort of way. We're all different parts of the Body, hlerwin just took offense to - perhaps the way we discuss. He/she came out of nowhere. .. and I apologize for the offense.
As a brother/sister in Christ - I respect your position with hlerwin as it appears you have had a great discussion with him/her .
I found it offensive, rude, and antagonizing. It sounded like it was intended to bait someone. Not helpful, and in fact offensive. I dont usually do that. But well.. I thought it was too much.
Sorry.
Ahh - it was the baby thing. Ummm, since when do we shut out honesty?
I'm not sure what you flagged to be honest, but it you left some but not the other - what??
Hey - why did you flag me?
hlerwin, I'm here.
rolln4him - I flagged you.
hlerwin-
Sorry if I offended you in some way
These last few posts sure do make me miss wbmoore.
Biggie2 -
I suppose if you want to go deeper than that - what about all those Egyptians caught in the Red Sea - I'm sure there were a few goodies in there. Oh, and what about the flood that wiped out all the people of the earth except for Noah and his family? World Wars of this century? Wow! I suppose there were some good ol' folk in there too.
What about it Biggie2 - someday you'll have to meet your Maker. Ready for an accounting of your life? What side will it be?
biggie -
Ooooo - you got me!
Hi Rolln -
I think GOD must be angry with caliornia - hence the "uncomfy" hot weather! But obviously He's not as mad as he was when he launched the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake killing more than 225,000 people in over 11 countries.
Or how about when he wiped out that boyscout camp with the tornado in Omaha 2 weeks ago? Certainly they were evil doers and deserved to die in God's omnipotent wisdom.
I just heard on the news today that "California is hotter than hell" Ummm, I wonder how much the correlation?
.
And that.....
That went through.
wb, my comment is only 490 characters with spaces, though. Still I often (every 3rd or 4th time) get the "Forbidden" page. Should I remove all the cuss words? (Just --- you know --- kidding....)
hlerwin,
CP only allows posts of 3000 characters. I suggest you type your message in word, then highlight the text and go to tools->word count to see how many characters it is. If you don't highlight first, it will count the characters of the entire document.
I use this to help me see what will be allowed and not allowed and adjust the amount of text I am posting accordingly.
I'll try to reply to wbmoore's "leadership before they matured" commenet later.
.
hlerwin, thanks for the clarification, believer
I can't get Part 2 through to wbmoore!
believer, you got me on that one -- except I guess I meant I was born into a Christian home. Also, many Christians (outside of certain sectarian groups) say they were "born Christian." I realize that your particular group thinks there needs to be some action taken on my part. Other groups -- like thehOrthodox -- think tyat if they get that communion wine into the baby's mouth, that baby is a Christian. I don't have stong feeling about this. (But I've heard the arguments, so you can save your typing on this one.)
hlerwin, no it wouldn't make sense for anyone to live by a book they don't believe in, but at the same time it does not free them from the truths taught in the Bible or the consequences for not adhering to the truths of the Bible most importantly coming to know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord before they die because when they appear before the Judgement Seat of God they can't say well I never believed Your Word so I can't be held accountable for any of the consequences associated with Your Word and more specifically for refusing to receive Your Son, Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord.
wbmoore wrote: "Additionally, many people are put in positions of leadership before they have matured in the faith."
hlerwin, you're right but I was responding to your response based on the response that cited the medical textbooks where you talked about the Bible being for basically a different age, sorry if I confused you. Also, you said on another site, the one about china, that you were born a Christian and I was curious how you were born a Christian?
hlerwin,
You said "I hold to my Christian values, but I almost never try to convice a person to change his opinion to mine." Well, I see you took Acts 1:8 out of his Bible.....and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
You also said "To me, one "downside" about devout believers (of any religion) is that they will always be separated from many people in their own communities."
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;"...1 Peter 2:9
For believer: I am not the one who made the post about textbooks. Your post must be intended for someone else. Keep in mind, though, that while you believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God, your neighbor may not believe this. Should he have to live under the rules of a book that he does not believe? I think not.
Other problems with the chu7rch include the fact that pastors get no support. Its a very visible position and they have few if any outlets to share their own frustrations and problems. It becomes easy to fall back into sins they had before coming to Christ, or to fall into new ones.
Additionally, many people are put in positions of leadership before they have matured in the faith sufficiently to be able to handle the rigors of such positions. While some may not like to hear it, age does often bring maturity. Additionally, people should be tested before they are put into positions of leadership, as they show the ability to maintain doctrine and perform the jobs/roles given to them, they can be given more authority. However, often people right out of seminary, or even younger are given postions of authority, and they simply are not ready, spiritually or emotionally.
Then there is the additional problem of too few workers. Christ spoke of this. There's a lot of work, long hours, little pay, lots of complaints, little help, and people who do not love God in the church. This makes it hard to lead.
I think part of the problem with church is that many people who attend have no relationship with God. They attned because their parents did, or because it looks good, or because its fun, or because they think that will get them into heaven. Because of this, many who attend church will never get to heaven - because they do not trust Christ.
But it is these people who do not want to mature. It is these people who are most selfish. It is these people who put their desires over what God says He wants. And it is these hypocrits that makes the world look at Christians and call us all hypocrits. And it is these people who also hurt the church by fighting and complaining against the pastor when the word of God conflicts with their selfiishness. As the Word gets watered down, they feel better, but they also move further from God and get more involved with sin. This in turn also affects others in the church and society in general.
As we move away from the Word of God, things go backwards - toward the time of Noah, the tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the times of the Judges, when all people did as what seemed right to them.
Nothing we do is new, really. The details might be different, but its the same song - for many, its all about me and what I want.
The problem with churches are that there are people in them. :)
None of us are perfect. We all tend to dislike what is different.
Churches can easily become social clubs, and not the triage hospitals and teachig facilities they should be. We are called to share the Gospel. Sometimes we get physically or emotionally hurt in doing so. church should be a refuge where we can rest and recuperate. However, often we end up getting attacked by well meaning people who are not being led by God. Instead, we need to teach such people of God's love and His admonitions to us. We need to help them mature. This is also the function of a church body. To help people learn about the standards God places upon us all, learn how to get out of sin, and how to stay out of sin, and learn how to grow closer to God in their daily lives. But as I said, too often church turns into a social club - this happens when what people feel or might do to the pastor becomes more important than the Word of God. The pastors job is to guide/mentor/teach/equip/prepare people to be useful to God. But often he is not saved Himself, or doesn't understand his position, or gets burned out, or damaged along the way, and its easier to tickle people's ears with what they want to hear instead of proclaim the Word of God in their lives.
hlerwin,
I am caled to teach. All of us are. Jesus said in Luke 17:3,
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
What is rebuke, but instruction of somethig done wrong?
Paul wrote in Galatians 6:1-2
1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
How does one restore someone who does something wrong? We teach them, gently as PAul said.
We should follow the examples of the apostles as much as possible.
Acts 5:42
42Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.
If they did it, should we not?
We are to make disciples and teach them.
hlerwin, the medical books of the 50's were written by men who used the facts of science and medicine available to them at that time and since then many of these facts have changed. But the Bible is the God-breathed, plenary, and inerrant Word of God. Yes, it was written by men in their own writing style, but while they were being superintended by God's Holy Spirit. 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in rightneouness,". Because God is all-knowing, all-powerful, unchanging, ever-present, and eternal His Word is true for all generations and all the ages not just the audience that was present.
I am not kidding that I don't know if we are going "forward or back." I hold to my Christian values, but I almost never try to convice a person to change his opinion to mine. To me, one "downside" about devout believers (of any religion) is that they will always be separated from many people in their own communities. Furthermore, these churches, synogogues, mosques or whatever tend to become "clubs." No matter how much we might be drawn to neighbors of another religion, we will probably never be too close. After all, "I know the truth, and they don't really know the truth. What those people say may at times sound sensible, but there is no 'truth' at the core. They are not to be trusted, really." For instance, look at all the misinformation Middle Eastern Muslims seem to have about ALL Americans.
I can't proof my own text. How about:
Just kidding -- but I did read the other day how people who USED to be separated by religion are NOW separated by politics. They don't care what each other's religion is. I can't decide if, for our society, this is going forward or backward.
Just kidding -- but I did read the other day how people who USED to be separated by religion and NOW deparated by politics. They don't care what each other's religion is. I can't decide if, for our society, this is going forward or backward.
But you better lay off my candidate, Obama!
Every time you make a post, wbmoore, I learn something.
hlerwin,
Again, to some extent, I find myself agreeing with you. Each of the books of Bible WERE written to a specific audience, to address specific problems, at a specific place, at a specific time, in a specific language. All of these things affect the details of the message.
However, since man does not really fundamentally change over time (as history has shown - we are still selfish and seek to justify ourselves/desires/behaviors/choices), many of the problems addressed in the BIble exist today. In those cases, the details in the Bible can be directly applied.
However, there are changes which do not seem to have direct Biblical examples. In those cases, we look at the principles being taught and then apply them to THIS situation in THIS time in THIS place.
Actually, that is the intent exactly what Biblical Hermeneutics does: examine the details, history and context of the Biblical message being read/learned/taught (Who was involved, what happened, when did it happen, what else was happening at the time, why did it happen, how did it happen), then determine the principle being taught, then find a way to apply those principles to the audience here and now.
hlerwin, I must have missed your question. Sorry. No, I do not find your posts to be gibberish.
I find your questions thought provoking. Your responses seem to be well thought out. And although we disagree, your posts always seem to be respectful.
I'm not sure I always appreciate some of the quotes you have provided, but then, that is part of why these forums exist: to provide a space for dialog of differing points of view. Unfortunately, people often get frustrated to the point of ill beahavior. I am certainly NOT accusing you of such, however. As I've said, your posts have always been respectful.
thanks hlerwin
Back a few posts ago, one writer called my comments "jibberish," and I asked if wbmoore thought that, too. I hope not. My good friend says that my arguments are too ad hominem. What can I say? I'm a southerner. Even though I had a U. Va. education, we still talk about "people" down here. My uncle used to remind us that "great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events and ordinary minds discuss people." I'm busted, I guess. I'm glad Jesus seems to prefer ordinary people!
In my opinion -- just MY opinion, I think if Jesus came today, he would discard much of our "holy writ."
But, wbmoore, I agree with Sunshine about the Bible's scripture's being contextual to a society from long ago.
Sunshine, do you really think wbmoore’s posts are “rants?” I’m sure you’ve heard real rants before, but I don’t think they had much in common with moore’s comments.
If there is anyone who knows about changing his mind, its Obama. That person can't make a decision and keep it. His idea of taking a stand is to getting up so he can rearrange his thoughts before he sits down again.
Society is always influenced by the beliefs of its members. This is particularly so in a representative democratic republic. Satan has successfully convinced people that God either does not exist or does not matter or is fluid in what He thinks or deamdns.
However, this does not mean that is true. In fact, God is unchanging. His divinely inspired Word is unchanging. God loves you, and everyone else in the world. He wants you to believe in Him and what He has done by sending His Son to suffer and die for your sins, so you do not have to die for them. All He asks is you to believe, trust, love Him. This in turn will be reflected in growing obedience to Him.
Of course you are free to ignore Him. But in doing so, you take risk ultimate - your soul. But in the process you adversely affect others. History shows that when we make decisions that run contrary to His Word, people suffer. (And before you scream about how the Bible has been used to adversely affect others, yes, the Bible has been used as a weapon to try to justify selfish desires - I am not speaking of that. I am speaking of using the Bible to become who HE wants you to be, not who YOU want to be).
We each want what is best. We differ in what we think is best and what we use to form the basis for our decisions. However, I base my moral foundation upon a divinely inspired document that has not changed for centuries. Man has not changed either. People are still selfish. While the details of specific examples in the Bible may or may not apply to today's society (and certainly in agrarian societies, which still exist today, even those would apply), the principles found in the BIble in how one should live certainly do.
But as I said, feel free to ignore them. Its no skin off my nose. I just wish you could understand the love that God has for you.
Should we call in a Constitutional lawyer? Maybe Obama...? Freedom of religion means that Americans can choose to ignore the rantings of evangelicals like you who insist on trying to model a modern civilization on backwards texts from 2000+ years ago.
Let me ask you this! Would you refer to medical books written in the 1950s for your healthcare treatments today? Of course not! The ideas are outdated. Society evolves.
Same thing about your man-written text of the Bible. It represents the society of its day 2000 years ago. Backwards discriminatory, not giving rights to women, and hatred of gays. Admit its outdated, and contextual to a backwards time long ago!
Sun, I believe you misunderstand the Constitution. There is an amendment to it that prevents government from establishing a religion (as many people who founded this nation were escaping religious persecution of state run churches). However, This does not mean Christian ideals should not be used to help form the laws of this nation. Indeed, the majority of the founding fathers were Christian and held that when people without the guiding light of God were put into political office this country would suffer.
And they were right.
hi wbmoore - why don't you study the U.S. Constitution. That is what our great country was built upon. And it guarantees rights that are being granted this week to same-sex couples in California getting MARRIED!
The goal should be to be able to show love as God the father and God the son showed, and show, and will show it.
I know in my own life, as I pray, study the Bible, surrender my will, practice trusting God, I mature and become a better person.
The fact is, these behaviors have existed since man decided to not obey God.
As I've said before, religion can make things better or worse. But we need to focus on becoming who God wants us to be - not the temptation or failures.
If we strive to improve our thoughts and emotional and physical reactions, by following the teachings of the Christ, and the divinely inspired human authors of the New Testament, we will become more and more like the human part of Christ.
When the Rev. Coy Privette, a crusading, anti-alcohol, anti-gambling Southern Baptist preacher, was arrested in N. C. for soliciting a prostitute, and a newspaper article about the event requested responses, a commentor (Ed) sent in a fairly stunning comment:
"Christianity is the REASON for the aberrant behavior. It is precisely because he is a Christian that he is also a pervert. Christianity tries to suppress the natural instincts of humans at every possible outlet and the result is (naturally) it will vent itself - and almost always in a negative, perverse way. Those feelings don’t know where to go when the owner of those thoughts has been taught that every thought and feeling is evil. The result is emotional damage for life. The REAL evil is Christianity (and religion) itself. The real demon is Jesus Christ (a fake deity) and the other imaginary friends that people worship.
"Get rid of your demons, folks. Get rid of Jesus and the fairy tales. Abandon these tired old myths that you only follow out of fear and then you’ll see perversion, theft, hate, bigotry, depression, suicide, and evil take a huge nosedive. Finally we will have some peace."
I don't stand by Ed's remarks, but sometimes I do wonder if we are driving ourselves and our families crazy with all this religion.
Biggie, go read my series of posts concerning your challenge in another forum:
http://www.christianpost.com/article/comment/20080615/32822_Anglican_Church%3A_Gay_%27Wedding%27_Broke_Rules.htm
Hi Fellow Believers!
Who here says every word in the Bible is true? Who here endorses 100% of the Bible, every statement as the wishes of God! If in the Bible, I can find an "order" of God, and if you do NOT 100% execute it, I consider you literalists to have LOST.
Who here takes my challenge? Is there a soul here in this room that agrees 100% with every phrase and statement in the Bible? And will there be NOTHING I can find thats a commandment in the Bible that you not 100% completely agree with?
This ought to be interesting. Any takers?
Sounds like biggie is a bit on the immatures side.
YEAAAHHH!!!! GAYS ARE WINNING!!! :-) JESUS LOVES GAYS!
Thus, from a utilitarian perspective, I hold the position that sex outside of marriage, homosexual sex, abortion, cohabitation, divorce, and homosexual marriage are bad for individuals and society.
Of course, from a moral perspective, I also hold these are wrong.
From a religious perspective, God said these are wrong (if not directly, the principles that support not participating in these acts are certainly in the Bible).
As well, we must consider the cost of cohabitation to society. Because people who are single tend to eat out more, when they choose to cohabitate, the funds introduced to society via such activities are lacking. This is true also for those people who rent or purchase homes while they are single. The renting and purchasing of goods associated with homes/apartments introduces money into the economy – and this is reduced when two people choose to cohabitate. The benefits to society of marriage (because of child rearing and the longer and more content lives of the individuals involved) between two heterosexual people outweighs the loss to the economy in those sectors.
We mustn’t forget that people who cohabitate are more likely to separate after extended periods of time, or to divorce if they do marry, the attendant costs to individuals and society concerning divorce apply to these people as well.
"Abortion ensures that there are no children born out of such relationships, ensuring that society must not shoulder the costs of raising and supporting such children. Homosexual couples (absent artificial insemination and surrogacy) are not capable of yielding offspring and thus don't contribute to society's costs in that regard either. "
What you say concerning abortion is true to an extent. However, studies show (and personal experience has also shown) that abortion causes depression and other socio/psycho illnesses in many women. These in turn must be dealt with as mentioned above, and thus have a cost to society and individuals.
We must also consider that many homosexuals (even today, aside from the marriage issue) desire children. If homosexual couples who have children do divorce, the same issues mentioned above concerning divorce and the resulting lowered standard of living hold true for these couples as well.
The past successes in redefining the social mores concerning sex and marriage have resulted in high costs to society. While we can not be 100% this will be the case when society’s mores have successfully changed nationwide (indeed worldwide) concerning homosexual marriage, we must postulate there will be some consequences to society that will parallel previous successes.
Of course, we have not even begun to cover the other costs that attend sex outside of marriage, such as the psycho/socio problems, as well as physical problems, such as disease.
Additionally, concerning the practice of homosexual sex, there are costs to society that parallel those costs associated with heterosexual sex outside of marriage. However, there are also other physical costs that are inherent in sodomy that will increase in incidents of occurrence as more people embrace this option.
"The counseling will exist regardless because in this day and age counseling has become a quasi-religion and is recommended for everything from coping with divorce (parents and children alike) to social anxiety disorder to general depression."
Unfortunately, I have to say you are correct to some extent. I believe that while many if not all counselors have a desire to truly help people, they also have a vested interest in convincing people they need counseling. This creates a disconnect.
However, leaving that aside, if people were not to divorce, there would be no need to deal with the chemical and psychological and sociological aspects of the emotional ramifications of divorce. While there might be other issues that people would address through counseling and medical intervention, the effect of divorce would not be one of them. Additionally, there would be less drug addiction, because these same people would not suffer depression, or other psycho/socio disorders/illnesses brought on by divorce. As such they would not begin psychological treatment for these same disorders, and thus would not be introduced to medical solutions, which often lend themselves (by their very nature) to drug abuse and addiction. This in turn would reduce the likelihood of some of these people seeking drugs through fake or imagined illnesses - which costs society in terms of lost work, hospital visits/stays, and increased medical insurance and other medical costs, and increased taxes to support such things, including the loss due to thefts from people's attempts to either obtain drugs or money to purchase the same. This in turn would also reduce the danger of physical violence/death that sometimes accompanies such thefts.
"As for the child support matter, this potentially valid concern does serve, in a utilitarian sense, to cut counter to the typical arguments against homosexual relationships and abortion. "
Actually, in marriages where there are no children, and only one person in the couple works, alimony must be paid in cases of divorce (in most states). This reduces the standard of living for both parties. This in turn can make it more difficult to receive health insurance, which in turn further reduces the standard of living for both people, as well as increases the cost to society for many of the same reasons mentioned above. This issue is compounded when children are involved.
Additionally, even when both parties work and there is no need for alimony, their standard of living is still reduced upon divorce, thus resulting in cost to the individuals and society as a whole.
@wbmoore: Just to be clear, I do respect you, your views and your candor. My most sincere apologies for times when I come across as glib or arrogant.
As a response to your invocation of utilitarian theory it seems that you and some other posters are trying to have it both ways. When it comes to heterosexual relationships you emphasize that marriage is crucial because divorce, cohabitation and premarital sex lead to society being forced to support the children of single parent families or shoulder the costs for the ensuing counseling. For clarity sake I will be splitting those issues into child support and counseling to be treated separately. The counseling will exist regardless because in this day and age counseling has become a quasi-religion and is recommended for everything from coping with divorce (parents and children alike) to social anxiety disorder to general depression. As an aside, I think that religious leaders in one's community often serve as the best counselors because the best help comes from a caring and patient person with a vested interest in the well being of his congregation. As for the child support matter, this potentially valid concern does serve, in a utilitarian sense, to cut counter to the typical arguments against homosexual relationships and abortion. Abortion ensures that there are no children born out of such relationships, ensuring that society must not shoulder the costs of raising and supporting such children. Homosexual couples (absent artificial insemination and surrogacy) are not capable of yielding offspring and thus don't contribute to society's costs in that regard either.
I realize that there are deontological concerns relating to abortion but strictly in utilitarian terms abortion seems efficient and appropriate in light of your proffered arguments.
While part of my goal in these discussions is to argue against homosexual marriage, the greater goal (and much more important to me) is to express what God has to say about anything in life. I believe God's word is much more important and efficacious for His purposes than my own.
I believe it is more important for people believe God, believe He sent Christ, and trust in what God has done through sending His Son to suffer and die for us than it is to convince people their particular desire is or is not sinful. I also believe it is very important to people who claim to know, trust, or love God that the Word of God should be our standard. And since I DO believe the subject of these particular forums is of high importance to our lives (aside from what Scripture says about it), I use the opportunity to share God's word on it while I am discussing it - in the attempt of meeting the three goals I have mentioned.
I agree with you, wbmoore, you do have a right and a duty to speak out to protect yourself. An unhelpful tool in your efforts, though, is quoting Christian scripture or, as someone wrote earlier, to declare that a certain societal change (like gay marriage, for instance) is "unpleasing to the Lord." This is not an argument that will get very far in a community or in court, for that matter. Yes_I_am has asked for "reasonable" (Was that one of his adjectives?) arguments.
" the only person who can make a decision about his or her sex outside of marriage, his or her cohabitation, her abortion or his or her divorce is the person himself or herself. "
I agree. However, when such things affect me - even from a purely humanistic and selfish point of view, I have a right and duty to speak out to protect myself.
Speaking from a utilitiarian perspective, it is not cost effective to allow things such as sex outside of marriage, cohabitation, abortion, and divorce, because they cost society in financial resources due to the fact that the people who participate in such things make it more likely that poeple will have to raise children alone and/or need counseling to deal with the consequences of such things. This in turn affect the insurance costs for all, as well as increases the tax burden for all.
You, wbmoore, wrote: " to wit: normalize (remove the stigma) and legalize sex outside of marriage, cohabitation, abortion, and divorce." I understand that you think cannot stand by and allow people to do things that will harm themselves and others. Still, I believe that the only person who can make a decision about his or her sex outside of marriage, his or her cohabitation, her abortion or his or her divorce is the person himself or herself. In a secular society, we especially cannot allow any one group's religious texts to set regulations. As far as I know, all my forbears are Christians of European stock. "My people" have made the rules in the country for a long, long time. But, as the USA matures (even improves), we as a nation are moving away from this idea. It's painful sometimes, but this shift in power (and empowerment) has a salutary effect on so many of our citizens. It opens the doors to some dangers, too. But since the "idea" of the USA was formulated, we have been headed towards this.
hlerwin, thank you for your patience and understanding.
sigh... I know I am not going to convince people who have made up their minds to consider what I have to say. I know I will not convince people who have made up their minds otherwise that a God exists and He loves them and He has standards that were given for a reason.
But I really dont WANT to insult people, nor offend people, nor do I wish to hurt people's feelings (choose your adjective). I realize that people think others who believe what they do is a sin also think that we are saying their very beings are also a sin. But I, at least, am able to recognize there is a difference between a person, his beliefs, his emotions, and his escense. I have nothing but respect for people - regardless of gender, age, race, religion, or sexual preference. This does not mean I agree with all people. Sometimes a disagreement is strictly based upon the BIble. Sometimes it is based upon personal experience. Sometimes both. In all cases, I would like to think that I have given my objections a thorough examination and am not acting purely out of instinct.
There is little the BIble says to not do that I hav not either done, thought of doing, or know someone who has done it. This does not make me (or the person who has done those things, if not me) a bad person. It makes us human.
I am not uneducated. I owuld like to think I can and do think for myself. But I beliee God exists. I believe that God CREATED us. I believe that GOD loves us. I believe that God has stantards He wants us to maintain (for reasons we may or may not yet understand). I also believe God wants me to love people in the same way He loves us. This does not mean stand by and allow people to do things that will harm themselves and others, if possible.
Perhaps you would be surprised to read that I believe that sufferage for all is a good thing. :) I also believe in freedom for all, and while I grew up in a highly predjuiced family, I never understood the reasons (and truly do not think they could have articulated them).
The decisions I believe have hurt this country are mainly those I mentioned in my post from 6/19 at 11:23 AM, to wit: normalize (remove the stigma) and legalize sex outside of marriage, cohabitation, abortion, and divorce.
Lets us examine the example of the ease with which divorce can be obtained has a highly detrimental effect on children and society. Abundant research has shown that this has damaged children immeasurably, and in turn has damaged society – with increases in behavioral problems and the likelihood that children without both parents in the home have a higher incidence poverty, of divorce and of having children out of wedlock. By redefining marriage as a contract in which one or both parties can easily break the contract, individuals and society have suffered, and are suffering. By redefining society’s mores to allow cohabitation outside of marriage, it is no longer considered taboo to cohabitate – this in turn has led to couples who do so and then marry being much more likely to divorce. This in turn causes more divorces. It is a cycle that our society has yet to unravel.
Now, God said divorce is not a good thing. Society decided they wanted it. They have it, and life for many and society itself has degraded because of it.
Well, just as many Christians see it as their obligation to bring religion to the heathens and save their souls I hope to bring reasoned thinking and an open mind to the dogmatic...
I shan't be discouraged by the resistance I face. Even if I can reach a handful of people and show them that one can both be moral and caring towards his fellow human beings while still thinking things through reasonably and rationally then it is all worthwhile.
@WBMoore: I'm trying to limit discussion to stay on things that are relevant. Should we look at the slippery slope resulting from women gaining the right to vote? Or perhaps the rights of blacks to marry whites? Or how about the abolition of slavery? These were all hard fought battles for equality which when looked back upon proved to be appropriate despite the vehement objections of people at the time. The repercussions of which you speak, the legalization of child marriages and polygamy are specters drawn out by the feebleminded to support their weak arguments. Certainly the results of any given policy are significant in the course of making the decision but those predictions must be based on probability and reasonableness in light of the law as it is and even as it is proposed.
As for your gripes with the age of consent, it's the law and if you're not pleased with it talk to a legislator; however, contrary to the firmly held belief that things should never change or evolve socially that is omnipresent on this board, things do change. Society and its government has decided that 12 is too young for marriage and that even in states where the age is as young as possible it doesn't fall below 15 or 16. If you and your christian brethren are displeased that the constitution exists by all means try to muster enough support for a constitutional amendment repealing the separation of church and state or in the alternative secede and form a nation imbued with the christian ideals you all espouse with so much vigor. Until that day this is America, love it or leave it.
You wrote: "Yes, many here object based upon religiously based moral reasons. However, this does not remove the fact that in the past when society has jointly made decisions to go against what God has said was right, for selfish reasons, it has proven itself to be a decision with poor consequences for society," wbmoore. What are some of these decisions? May I say that it is very edifying to me to read the comments between you and Yes_I_am_a_Jew. Some on this Web site may not believe that both of you are honest and well-intentioned, but I do. And both of you, I think, are making some effort to see the other's point of view (which is nearly impossible, it seems!). Still, I appreciate your articulate posts.
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
Proverbs 29:2
Yes, this might be the connection between homosexuality and pedophilia with regards to the same-sex marriage/union issue. One organization that is an avid supporter of same-sex marriage/unions being passed is NAMBLA, North American Men and Boy Lovers Association. They not only support it but also financially contribute to this cause as well. Their agenda in this appears to be if we can open the parameters of the definition this far what's to stop us from widening it even more, thus the connection between homosexuality and pedophilia.
The age of consent is arbirary. In this country, it was once expected for children the age of 12 or older to marry. If a woman was 20 and unmarried, she was considered a spinster. When someone is considered an adult is also arbirary. You can't try to set limits on the discussion simply because you do not want to consider the ramifications of previous poor societal decision in concert with the idea that homosexuals should marry.
It is when you ignore history because you do not wan to consider it in relation to the current decision process that you are bound to make decisions based purely on selfish desires.
Of course you have to consider what might happen when you make a decision. To fail to do so shows a lack of wisdom.
Yes, many here object based upo religiously based moral reasons. However this does not remove the fact that in the past when society has jointly made decisions to go against what God has said was right, for selfish reasons, it has proven itself to be a decision with poor consequences for society.
We need to be aware that polygamy, incestuous marriages, and transgendereds, are waiting for their turn in the limelight. And you're a fool if you think otherwise. Remember, 20 years ago the idea of gay marriages was laughable at best....much the same way polygamy and incest marriages are considered today. But I don't believe that those involved in such lifestyles will have to wait another 20 years. The gay rights agenda will slingshot those other "alternative" lifestyles along with them.
Wake up and see the truth.
@wbmoore: Then I'm sure that you feel that the decision to allow interracial marriages, which were illegal in many states, was a move towards selfish indulgence by the government? I still fail to grasp your connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. Yes, according to the bible they are both sexual transgressions; however, the legal wrongfulness of pedophilia is that it involves a child under the age of consent who the law deems incapable of making his own decisions whereas homosexuality involves two consenting adults. Once again, your slippery slope argument is fatally flawed. You still can't come up with a cogent argument as to why homosexual marriage should be illegal under the laws of California or the US in general without resorting to "look where it might lead." There is a compelling state interest in preventing children from being involved in sexual relations and as such any government restriction upon it will be incredibly hard to overturn by a court. There is not a similarly compelling state interest in controlling the sexual activities of two consenting adults. Moreover, marriage isn't about the sex. Gays can have sex all they want without marriage. Marriage is about legal entitlements granted to individuals in a recognized and sanctioned relationship relating to co-ownership of property, survivorship rights, intestacy rules and authority to make medical decisions on the other spouse's behalf. Aside from your moral indignation over the corruption of the term "marriage" and that individuals should act contrary to your moral code, what is it that should render this judicial decision void and unconstitutional? Why should some citizens be denied the rights that others enjoy when the only problem is that they have the same gender? (and please don't resort to the trite: then let's let people marry children and pets because this discussion is exclusively about a union between two adult humans of or above the age of legal consent within the given state)
Homosexuality is a sin. And we need to pray for those who are in bondage to that sin, as well as many other sins...idolatry, adultery, fornication, lying, stealing, greed, lust, etc, etc. We need to keep trying to warn them of the future that waits for them. Keepk telling them that there is a better life out there, and that they don't have to settle for a mediocre, sinful life.
Just as 'normalizing' (and making easier and legalizing) sex outside of marriage, cohabitation, abortion, and divorce have all had detrimental effects on 'developed' nations (note that many developed nations have reached a point in their birth-death rates, where there will be an insufficient number of adults to support a growing population of aging people - or are close to reaching this point without immigration), so will homosexual marriage.
To believe that any conversation can occur without the participants beliefs being an influence shows a lack of forethought concerning this matter. No one can hold strongly held beliefs and not have those beliefs influence them or their discussions.
You dont seem to understand that there is no way to separate the man from his faith. If one's faith is stronger in oneself than in a god, that belief will influence you. If you believe that its more important for you to make a decision based on your personal feelings rather than an outside standard, that belief and those feelings will influence you. If you believe you should accede to a creator and follow the rules he sets forth, those beliefs and rules will influcence you.
It used to be the role of government to ease and protect commerce and its inhabitants. Now it is the role of government to encourage individual desires and selfishness and feeling good..
arg. I hate not being able to edit our posts.
I meant to say 'It will not be 20 years after homosexual MARRIAGE is legalized nationwide (and while I am against it, I recognise it will eventually occur) before pedophilia is legalized. '
The point is, as society moves to 'normalize' and legalize what God considers sin, more and more things that many consider wrong or harmful are being normalized and legalized.
It will not be 20 years after homosexual is legalized nationwide (and while I am against it, I recognise it will eventually occur) before pedophilia is legalized.
Its already illegal to have separate gender public restrooms in Colorado. Although I seriously doubt this was the intention, this makes it much easier for pedophiles to stalk/choose their victims.
As society moves forward in its headlong rush to not make people feel bad for doing bad things or being certain ways (its innate, or its an illness, or its genetic - pick the excuse and justification), society begins to rush headlong into decadence and crumbles much like other societies in the past. As society makes it easier to not be self-sacrificing and self-controlled, society moves toward implosion.
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@wbmoore: Quit trying to conflate the issue into all sins. Driving under the influence is completely dissimilar from gay marriage. The discussion in this article and the board is that of gay marriage and attempts to tie in the whole, let's allow all sin and see where it gets us is a poor attempt at a slippery slope argument that is simply incongruous with the topic. There are laws that govern those activities just as there are laws that govern marriage and who may be allowed to be granted those rights. Here the law changed and the effects are being discussed. Law is not an all or nothing matter, rather it is changed piece-meal with deliberation by the legislature, enactment by the executive branch and review by the judicial branch.
I encourage you and any of your compatriots who are up to the task to take up the challenge of debating this law on the merit with reasoned arguments that could actually be used by people trying to defeat this law and have it struck down. Just as a helpful tip, "it displeases the lord" is not something that would get you very far in that pursuit regardless of how firmly you hold the belief. The law doesn't work that way...
Still disturbing to me is the misconception that there can be no meaningful relationship between individuals of the same sex. Much of this is likely derived from people who have had sparse exposure to the gay community outside of seeing some protests or gay pride parades. I happen to live in Greenwich Village, which is populated with a great many gays, and I can honestly say that their relationships span the same spectrum as heterosexual ones. There are meaningless flings based on lust and there are long term loving relationships that are identical to a traditional marriage but for the legal recognition and the sex organs of the participants. There are couples in my building who have cohabitated for over 15 years, which far exceeds the average length of a marriage in the US these days and they genuinely care for each other as would a married couple.
The presbyterian church on my corner, which I've attended on occasion (and welcomes gays to the point of participating in the gay pride parade each year) posted a most inspirational and appropriate message a few months back, "Jesus died to take away your sins, not your mind."
I posted this challenge almost 2 days ago and no one has dared to pick up the gauntlet:
"Not to be a killjoy and disrupt the vigorous conversation on the sinfulness or propriety of homosexuality but the fact still stands that this whole debate began as a response to the legal decision to allow same sex marriages and it would be nice to return to that issue for some intelligent debate. The fact remains that despite the vehement rejection over religious grounds to the decision there has yet to be an actual argument as to why the decision is legally incorrect or inappropriate. Thankfully, religious sentiments cannot be integrated into the law insomuch as doing so would violate the first amendment. By excessively entangling the law and religion, which clearly prohibiting gay marriage on the basis that it is immoral and sinful would be, any such prohibition would run afoul of the constitution and indirectly serve as an unconstitutional establishment of a religious tenet. So laying down the gauntlet of challenge I still implore the Christian community to come up with an argument as to why a state would have a compelling interest in prohibiting gay marriage that could not be accomplished through a less restrictive means. In so much as a court really wouldn't acknowledge scriptural quotations indulge me in a mental exercise and put forth an argument that a person challenging this decision would make in front of a judge in the hopes of overturning it."
Until the Christian community can put down the bible and start thinking of cogent arguments that would persuade lawmakers the gay community will continue to be afforded the equal rights it is pursuing. Granted, there is nothing more unamerican than fighting against the endowment of equal rights on individuals who are law abiding citizens (so this would immediately exclude pedophiles, polygamists and practitioners of bestiality), we still do allow personal choice so feel free to pursue your own agendas.
Think about it. And if someone would like to argue why the law should be changed for a reason that might actually persuade a judge to invalidate it I'd welcome the intelligent discourse, because while 4 judges saying that something is the law might not make it the "truth" it still makes it the law...
I suppose we could decide to support everyone's right to sin how ever they choose, and the consequences (to the parties invovled, as wel as those inadvertantly affected, such as children or society in general or pets or other animals) don't matter.
Then it would be OK for people to get high or drunk and drive and when they kill someone, well... since the fact is, there's nothing wrong with it, they should be free to choose to drive and the people killed were also free to choose to be where they were, so what's the harm...? Besides, they love their drugs or alcohol, and its really all about love....
Then it would be OK for pedophiles to convince children to have sex with them - its a choice, and its all about love so what does it matter...? Then it would be OK for pedophiles to force children to have sex with them - they are only children and 'studies' have shown there is no harm, and children really like that sort of 'love'.... so what's the harm...?
Why dont you guys just leave drunks and drug addicts and pedophiles alone?
Then it would OK for corporate executives to abscound with milions of dollars investors had chosen to take the chance that they would invest it wisely, because the investors KNEW there was a chance they would loose their money. Its a choice, and no one really got hurt anyway.... so leave the thieves alone.....
Animals don't have feelings and no one really cares about them anyway, so what does it matter....its all about love....
The more sin in the world, the easier it is for people to make the decision to not follow Christ. And wouldn't it be the loving thing to let people make stupid decisions.....?
If you can not tell all the above is sarcasm, and not what I believe at all.
However, I DO believe God was quite clear about how He loves us all, and He desires that all should believe and be saved. It is the job of people who love Him to share His good news.
someone did not like God the fact that God says you shouldlobey Him.
John taught the same: 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
It is not about being justified by the Law. Its about being who God wants you to be. Its about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him.
But if you don't obey, then you don't love Him. You are breaking the greatest commandment. Without a change in focus to loving God more than yourself, this breaking the greatest commandment will eventually lead to eternal death.
Paul wrote in Romans 6:12-16
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
So will you be a slave to your desires or a slave to obedience to Christ? if you say you love Christ, then you must obey.
As John said in 1 Jn 3:10,
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
hlerwin,
You said " What if the Chinese had continued colonizing the west coast hundreds of years ago and set up a country here in North America. Then later some of our people (mine, anyway) came to the east cost from Europe."
By God's divine design that did not happen though. Everything happened according to God's plan.
America is not mentioned in Revelation because either:
A. It has been destroyed by other nations
B. Because of it's lack of ability to control it's national debt it loses it's place as a superpower
C. Because of the immoral lifestyles (not just homosexuality, but also adultery, porn, drugs, humanism, etc, etc) it destroys itself just as the Romans did.
Personally, I think it's most likely B or C...and maybe both. Christianity is not an "American Religion." Jesus began it in Israel. Jesus was Jewish. The Orthodox Jews just chose to deny it. While it's influence spread around the world.
hlerwin,
They won't work any worse that gay marriages. Polygamy has been around for a looooooooooong time, and is in no danger of being completely eradicated. Making it legal will only proliferate it even more. Remember...it's about LOVE. How can a brother and sister who love each other romantically not have as good of a chance as homosexuals? If it's "love" then it'll work.
A secular nation cannot be run under the guidelines of any one groups' sacred text. What if the Chinese had continued colonizing the west coast hundreds of years ago and set up a country here in North America. Then later some of our people (mine, anyway) came to the east cost from Europe. Should we "anglos" be forced to live under Budddhist authority? America doesn't seem to show up in revelation anywhere anyway (except for the mention of those "islands," possibly), so maybe God doesn't care which religion the inhabitants of this continent follow.
Prophet, did my answer really seem like a"jibberish?" Prophet wrote: " I ask a direct question and you circumnavigate it with jibberish." Did wbmoore think it was jibberish? I reread it and I think it was very clear, but I will state it MORE clearly: Yes, I can support polygamy and incest for THOSE people who choose it. I don't think it's very workable. I even think thee partners will probably regret the arrangement. I personallly would not enter into such a marriage. But I have no authority over those people who choose to, nor do you (nor does the Bible if they don't wan to follow it).
John taught the same: 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
It is not about being justified by the Law. Its about being who God wants you to be. Its about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him.
But if you don't obey, then you don't love Him. You are breaking the greatest commandment. Without a change in focus to loving God more than yourself, this breaking the greatest commandment will eventually lead to eternal death.
Paul wrote in Romans 6:12-16
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
So will you be a slave to your desires or a slave to obedience to Christ? if you say you love Christ, then you must obey.
As John said in 1 Jn 3:10,
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
How Does Romans Teach Homosexuality Is Sin?
First we have to recall that God said homosexual sex is wrong in Lev 18. He repeated this in Romans 1 (that would be where he called it degrading, impurity, dishonoring, unnatural, indecent).
Romans 3:20 says we are not found righteous by the Law, but it teaches us what sin is.
Romans 6:23 says we earn death with our sin.
The Old Testament gives many concrete examples of spiritual truths that are explicitly defined in the New Testament. The basic one of which is that God comes first in your life, then others.
Let’s say that you feel sexual attraction and even love for someone of the same gender. Let’s further posit that you want to marry this person. How can that be against the spirit of what Christ said were the two greatest laws, to love God and love others as yourself?
The answer is in Romans 1:19-32. Let me break it down:
1. By putting your desires above God's you are putting yourself, a created creature, in the place of God in your life.
2. By refusing to accept what God has said about homosexual sex being a sin, you are refusing to honor God.
3. By ignoring His word, you are being ungodly, and suppressing the truth.
4. By saying that your thoughts on the subject are more important that God's thoughts on it, you are exchanging the truth of God for your own thoughts.
5. If you want to sin and ignore God, you are certainly free to do so. God will eventually give you more and more of it, until you reap what you sow. When anything takes the place of God in your life (whether its a TV, a job, a person, yourself, your desires, your fears, money, fame, a carved idol, etc), then you are sinning. If you continue to do so, you are hardening your heart. God will eventually give you over to that sin - He will eventually harden your heart.
6. Your sin will eventually move from a personal hidden thing to a public thing, to a thing where you approve of others doing your sin.
7. And your sin will cause you to do other unrighteous things.
Now, this goes against what Christ said were the two greatest commands because if you truly loved God OR yourself, you will love God with all your strength, mind, and spirit. You would be obedient to GOD rather than thinking your thoughts and feelings should take precedence over what God has said.
But instead, you choose to argue and justify rather than Love and Obey.
Christ is only the savior for those who trust in His saving work -- and if He is, then they will obey Him, If they do not obey, then that is evidence that He is not their savior.
Hebrews 5:9,
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
Cowboy does not apparently read the Bible.
Romans 1:18-32
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Note that God called sex with people of the same gender sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, indecent, and perversion, and something that ought not to be done.
Isn't it amazing how well Satan counterfeited real love? So much so, that the simple minded and carnal minded cannot tell the difference.
The document that severed ties with the King of England mentioned the" pursuit of happiness" as on goal of the new nation. Christians and other Americans would deny other Americans the pursuit of happiness based on their faith, not evidence that harm to others is actually being done. Time for Christians start address the actions of Americans that do harm other Americans. For those who's sexual orientation is for the same sex is as natural for them, as my white complexion is natural for me.
columbiacowboy said::
" He absolutely was NOT referring to a loving, committed same-sex relationship.
Homosexuality is not a sin. Calling it an "abomination" is absurd. "
Everything you say is lies and manipulation, like your father the devil is so apt at doing. You pay attention well when he teaches.
there are no committed and mongamous self sex marriages, they are so loose its sick. And its there spirit of evil that contaminates the whole earth. Wanting evil to spread so they can get what they want, no matter what it takes to get what htey want they will do it, because they do not love Justice, Fair Judgment, Good, Righteous Governing, Liberty, Rule of Law, And God Almighty.
Look at the state of the world, all the perversion and wars and hatred, its there spirit that does this.
On that note, we Love what God loves, and Hate what God hates. But this wisdom is lost on those who perish.
cowboy,
You don't believe in someone who is a "former homosexual", but I'd bet a million dollars you believe someone could be a "former heterosexual."
As I've said before...a heterosexual man becomes a homosexual and the world applaudes....a homosexual becomes a heterosexual and the world thinks something's wrong with him. I never could figure out the twisted morals of this screwed up world. That is just sick.
Paul did call homosexuality a sin. Sorry. I hate to burst your self-seeking bubble. Quit being lazy and pay attention when Paul said "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind."
Christians who embrace homosexuality are simply too lazy to change.
hlerwin
You'd make a great politician. I ask a direct question and you circumnavigate it with jibberish. I didn't ask if you thought that polygamy and incest marriages would happen....
I asked "Do you support it?" That is the question that needs to be answered...So no more misdirection please.
Paul did NOT comment on homosexuality. The word didn't exist in his time, and some translations using the word are doing so inappropriately and incorrectly. Paul was writing about something else entirely, most likely either temple prostitutes or child molestation. He absolutely was NOT referring to a loving, committed same-sex relationship.
Homosexuality is not a sin. Calling it an "abomination" is absurd. God created it. We KNOW...not think, KNOW...that people do not choose to be gay, and that those who are gay cannot change this. There is no such thing as a former homosexual. Every credible scientific, mental health and medical authority confirms it's a perfectly natural, normal condition for some people. God obviously does not view it as any more an "abomination" than being left-handed.
And while those favoring discrimination continue to whine that they're NOT being hateful, I see again the immensely insulting and bigoted comparison of gay marriage (and no, it is not "marriage" but marriage) to having sex with an animal. Gay people are just as committed, just as in love, and just as forever as any other marriage, and telling them that their spouse is no different than a dog is hate and nothing but.
And hate cannot be Christian.
hlerwin--
You don't need to use Leviticus to justify the condemnation of homosexuality. The Apostle Paul condemns homosexuality in both Romans and 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy. Homosexual behavior is a sin. Period. The apostates and those with itching ears can attempt to twist and pervert the scriptures in any way they want, but it doesn't change the truth. The truth is, homosexuality is a grave sin and an abomination in the eyes of God. A lie like homosexual marriage doesn't become truth just because you or anyone else, or even four judges, say so. It is a lie, it is a grave sin, it is evil and it is an abomination. Look up the definition of abomination and it will be clear just how the Lord views homosexual behavior.
hlerwin, based on Who he's quoting are you sure it's kboswell you need to be concerned about?
That kboswell is a scary person.
The Lord will mock those who have mocked Him: “BECAUSE I HAVE CALLED, AND YE REFUSED; I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HAND AND NO MAN REGARDED; BUT YOU HAVE SET AT NOUGHT ALL OF MY COUNSEL, AND WOULD NONE OF MY REPROOF: I ALSO WILL LAUGH AT YOUR CALAMITY; I WILL MOCK WHEN YOUR FEAR COMES. WHEN YOUR FEAR COMES AS DESOLATION AND YOUR DESTRUCTION COMES AS A WHIRLWIND; WHEN DISTRESS AND ANGUISH COME UPON YOU. THEN SHALL THEY CALL UPON ME, BUT I WILL NOT ANSWER; THEY SHALL SEEK ME EARLY, BUT THEY SHALL NOT FIND ME: FOR THEY HATED KNOWLEDGE AND DID NOT CHOOSE THE FEAR OF THE LORD. THEY WOULD NONE OF MY COUNSEL: THEY DESPISED ALL MY REPROOF. THEREFORE SHALL THEY EAT THE FRUIT OF THEIR OWN WAY, AND BE FILLED WITH THEIR OWN DEVICES.” (Proverbs 1:24-31)
This is my last post on this thread, May God bless you all no matter which side of the fence you're on,and take heed of His warning.
Prophet, on the proposals you made, I actually think polygamy will come back -- as it was in the Old Testament and among many other groups today, including some Mormons, although I think feminist issues will militate against this. Incest usually does not work out, because of potential birth defects. I don't think many people will marry their pets (and I don't know if this is a serious question). I do know, however, that the only people who can make the decisions about these marriages (polygamy or incest) are the partners in each marriage.
hlerwin,
So I take it that you support polygamy and incest marriages, and marrying your pet. You'd have to, otherwise you'd be a hypocrite.
That sounds like a suitable bedtime prayer. I'm headed for sleep. Good night...
Its not the negatives that offer hope and comfort. Its the promises. Its the love, mercy, and grace offered. Its knowing that even those God knows my weaknesses He loves me so much He sent His Son to die for my sins (and yours, if you accept the gift). Instead of giving me what I know I deserve, He gave me life, and in doing so, He has given me hope and the ability to become who He wants me to become and do what He wants me to do.
To coin a phrase, "there are more things in heaven and earth, wbmoore, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." There seems to be so much "do not," so much negativity, so much judgment, so much "just wait, you'll be sorry" in these "philosophies," as posted by church people. Is this really a comfort to people?
I've counseled, mentored, taught, and trained too many people to be an optimist. Generally, people are not inherently 'good'. People are inherently selfish. Sometime altruism arises spontaneously, for a myriad of reasons. But generally, people want what they want. Religion can change this, given the right religion. Or it can make it worse.
If it were not for Christians, England would still have slavery. If it were not for Christians, there would have been no underground railway for escaping slaves from the south. Of course, I am not speaking of people who used whatever means they could to justify their personal desires.
I speak of men and women who honestly loved God and put Him first. They read their Bible and understood the fact that we are CREATED equal. This does not mean we are the same. Nor does it mean we should use the fact that God loves us to harm others. But we should love others. Love does not mean giving people what they think they want. It means doing what is best for them as individuals and for society as a whole.
But the Bible tells of the end to come. It tells of how people will do what they want. They will call evil what God calls good, and they will call good what God calls evil. Its already happening. So many prophecies in the Bible have come true, and this is also coming true. There's no reason to think the final prophecy will not also come true.
Everyone has biases. No doubt. However, the trick is to try to recognize them, and identify which are the ones which are valid which need to be eradicated from one's life. As an adult, no doubt you have chosen what to believe and what not to believe. All of us do it to one extent or another every day.
Additionally, we decide who strongly we hold to a given belief, either consciously or subconsciously. Everyone's beliefs are based upon something. Sometimes our beliefs are fashioned by experience. Sometimes our beliefs are fashioned by what supposed experts state. Sometimes our beliefs are influenced by what we read.
Those who believe the Bible was breathed by God have little difficulty believing we should mold ourselves to what the Bible says we should be. To take something out of context, as the sarcastic letter has done. The context of those verses for a Christian would be the full revelation of God in the the Bible, including the New Testament. If we unknowingly take things out of context, we will hopefully be led to a fuller understanding of the text in question - such has been my experience and it is fully in line with what the Bible teaches concerning exactly that. But if we willingly take things out of context, God will deal with us a bit more harshly - either now, or in the afterlife.
That is a real difference between you and me, wbmoore. I am optimistic about the world my grandchildren will live in. I have seen so much improve for so many people just in my lifetime (since the mid-40s). Of course, many people are worse off, too. But instead of a world where just "my people" (that's WASPs) had all the rights, I seen those those rights spread out remarkably. That's a good thing, and I see more of that coming.
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there "degrees" of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -- Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your adoring fan,
James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus Dept. of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia
I suppose ktmichaelson and everyone else has seen this letter ostensibly written to Dr. Laura. I don't vouch for it, but it does demonstrate how we (you and I and all of us) pick and choose the parts of the Bible we want to follow. For what it's worth:
When to Smite?
06 March 2004
Mass emails are a kind of journalism these days, whether it's a Paul Krugman column or an Ann Coulter broadside e-blasted to a few dozen friends, or a link to "the truth about 9-11" (we didn't say it's always good journalism). The Revealer is probably the last to get this email currently making the rounds, but in case you missed it, we republish here an "open letter" to Dr. Laura. Impressed by the depth of her biblical knowledge, Dr. James M. Kauffman seeks further advice from the lifestyle guru:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. ... End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Law and how to follow them.
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord -- Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness -- Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
As societies become more decadent, as happened to Greece and Rome, those societies crumble. This will happen to Europe, and other ‘developed’ nations as we move towards a world government that attempts to neutralize or water-down, or join all religions into one and accepts aberrant behavior in the guise of tolerance.
I doubt our grandchildren will have a society worth living in, if a safe society will exist at all.
Again, your comment that any church that accepts homosexuality "will not be the church of Christ" reminds me of the woman we went to Russia with. The Orthodox church there was so different from this lady's Presbyterian church back home that she announced, "The Russians have no church." She was wrong. Perhaps your church of Christ may not marry gay people, but someone else's church of Christ will. Some of your grandchildren and their children will be members at this second church. My children (in their 30s) cannot understand why we are even discussing this topic.
I, like many conservative Christians, am not ‘against’ homosexuals themselves, simply the behavior, and purely for religious reasons – I believe what the Bible says about it and wish to help those who self-identify as homosexual to avoid that. I have written in previous posts why Christians feel the need to speak out against homosexuality becoming ‘normalized’ in our society, so I wont go into it here, except to say that Christians are called to shine the light of God upon the darkness of the world.
And although I can not speak for everyone, I believe many, if not all, of us who are opposed to homosexuality and homosexual marriage feel that to redefine marriage to include same gender people will cause more people to fall into something the Bible declares to be wrong. Additionally, many, if not all of us believe that redefining marriage to include same gender partners will cause society to suffer in much the same way that making no-fault divorce available has done.
Some people do not seem to understand that for someone who believes something, there is no separating their belief from their actions. For instance, if you believe a chair will hold your weight, you will sit in it. On the other hand, if you believe that same chair will not hold you weight, you will not sit on it. In the same way, if you believe a chair MIGHT hold you weight, but are not sure, you test it out first. Sometimes you will be right, and the chair will indeed hold your weight. Sometimes you will be wrong, and the chair will break.
In the same way, for people who believe that something is damaging, they will do what they can to avoid that thing. Indeed, if they believe that same ting to be damaging to others, they will often take actions to ensure that others are kept safe from that thing.
For many of us, there is no separating one’s strongly held beliefs from one’s actions.
This is true for Christians and non-Christians alike. When we see what we perceive to be something wrong, be it personally or in society at large, we will take action to stop it.
People who believe the Bible is truly the word of God will be affected by that belief. The level of influence of their beliefs and their actions is dependent on the strength of conviction they have concerning that thought.
As society has 'progressed', some things have improved society, but others have degraded it. For instance, slavery is bad, and in the US, it is now illegal. While some might have used the Bible to try to indicate that slavery is accepted, in fact the Word of God indicates that slave trading is a bad thing (See 1 timothy 1:9 where Paul equated slave traders to murders; 1 Corinthians 7:21 where he said to get out of slavery if you could; Philemon, where Paul wrote about ).It is a good thing that slavery has decreased worldwide (although unfortunately is not yet stopped worldwide).
However, as I said before, other things have degraded society – such as the ease with which divorce can be obtained. Abundant research has shown that this has damaged children immeasurably, and in turn has damaged society – with increases in behavioral problems and the likelihood that children without both parents in the home have a higher incidence of divorce and having children out of wedlock. By redefining marriage as a contract in which one or both parties can easily break the contract, society has suffered, and is suffering. By redefining society’s morees to allow cohabitation outside of marriage, it is no longer considered taboo to cohabitate – this in turn has led to couples who do so and then marry being much more likely to divorce. Research has shown that children of divorce suffer greatly. This in turn causes more divorces.
Even if gay marriage is overturned in November (which I doubt will happen), and the minority (any minority) is not protected from the tyranny of the majority (any majority), it will only be a matter of time that these marriages will come. But I am not "for" gay marriage as much as most of you are "against" it.
THIS DAY IS WONDERFUL!!!!
Come now, all you wonderful Christians! Follow Jesus's example and let LOVE into your hearts! Accept same-sex marriages and forever more you will be more like Christ. I challenge: Do you really know the spirit of your Bible? I think not! You are lost! The Bible is a historical document frozen in time back 2000 years ago. How much the world has changed!
Consider this: Our U.S. Constitution has an amendment process. Some laws become irrelevant. Admit that the Bible has irrelevant information, my Dear Christians. Do you not know??
Love no matter its form can NEVER be a sin!
Follow the LOVE of JESUS! Accept these glories same-sex unions. Accept the world isn't flat. Accept that the sun doesn't orbit around the earth. Accept that women have a voice. Accept that LOVE can exist and be legally recognized among two consenting adults!
Man + Man = Love
Woman + Woman = Love
Man + Woman = Love
MY FELLOW CHRISTIANS! BE LIKE JESUS AND ACCEPT LOVE!
hlerwin--
Any church that "accepts" homosexual marriage, now or in the future, whatever and wherever it might be, will not be the church of Christ. In fact, it will not be any part of Christ, no matter what it calls itself. It will simply be a group of apostates. Plenty of those down through the centuries, but none of them were Christian no matter what they called themselves.
To my brothers and sisters in Christ--
Let not your hearts be troubled. The evil and perverse may have won this round, but they will not win the contest. In November, the people of California will speak once again, and this time for good (or so it looks like from the polls). The constitutional amendment will be passed, and this abomination will pass into the history books as the anomaly that it is. Thousands of years of human civilization and norms will not be overturned by a shrill minority that seeks to inflict its perverse and twisted views on the majority.
Keep in mind, the people supporting this, and behind this, aren't really doing all of this because they want to marry. No, this is really about "taking it to the straights", to the majority, and trying to gain legal and enforced acceptance and validation (tolerance means putting up with what you detest but they have twisted tolerance to mean not that, but that one must accept, approve and embrace what one finds detestable. That is not tolerance.)
Every homosexual who comes to the church looking for forgiveness should be welcomed with love and compassion. So long as they acknowledge that their desires are sinful, and are repentant, we should welcome them and do our best to show them our compassion, love and support. But those who come demanding that the we change the Word to suit their corrupted desires, and attempt to twist and pervert the Word in attempts to lead others astray: to say that the Word doesn't really say what it plainly says. They must be sternly rebuked and met with the truth of the Word at every turn. They are liars, like their father, the father of lies.
A lie does not become the truth simply because they say so, nor because four judges say so. It is still a lie, and it is still evil, and it is still abomination.
It will be interesting to see if in the November a majority of Californians vote against same-sex marriage what the state will be required to do about the same-sex marriages performed prior to the marriage amendment being passed
It will be as it was in the days of Noah....Yes hlerwin, the church will survive this as it has all else. It will be weaker, and the true Bible believing church's will continue to diminish, but Jesus and Paul warned us of this coming storm almost 2,000 years ago. Hopefully, the remaining true church will be out of here before much longer. Then everyone can do as they please because there will be noone or nothing to stand in there way any longer.
I suggest -- without intending to throw flames on a smoldering fire – that our grandchildren and their children will grow up understanding that "marriage" includes everybody. It will surprise them to hear that back in the early 2000s there were some people who tried to limit the term and the institution to “just their group." And many of these future Americans, our descendants, will be faithful church members. The Church of Jesus Christ will survive this change, be assured.
After thinking about this post's recent exchange concerning the word "incredible," I had a thought. Language is fluid and organic, as you well know; it changes and grows. "Incredible" nowadays means "amazing, impressive, inspiring, thrilling" &c. Only rarely does it mean "not believable." In the same way, "fond" used to mean "silly," and "hopefully" used to mean "with a hopeful attitude." Many writers here have adopted (or grown up with) this "new" meaning of "incredible." See next post, please.
Yes_I_am, you will have a long wait for such an argument. It can't exist in a secular nation. Now, I realize that many churches will never perform same-sex marriages. If I really thought that the US government would one day force the Second Baptist Church of Hahira, Georgia (for instance) to perform gay weddings, I would be worried. It will not happen.
(Copied from my other post about the same topic)
I find it interesting that many homosexuals will argue that the Bible is old and outdated, even a fairy tale book, yet the very same people use Scripture to convey God's love, when their very own behavior is clearly identified as sin that God calls an abomination.
How does one reconcile in their heart accepting God's love and ignoring His coming wrath and judgment against sin? Wouldn't someone like that be considered a hypocrite, just like the person who calls themselves a Christian but is a closet homosexual, or addicted to pornography, or who is having an adulterous relationship outside of their marriage? Isn't that hypocritical? How is the Christian hypocrite any different from the homosexual hypocrite? And not all Christians are hypocrites just like not all homosexuals are hypocrites.
It is true, biblically true that Jesus Christ, who is God, represents love and His love is seen in the cross upon which Christ died on, for sin, not for love, but for sin.
Those who say that a homosexual lifestyle is not a sin are the very same people who are calling God a liar (1 John 1:10, Jeremiah 2:35) and God will present a clear case against them where they will not be found innocent.
There really is no joy in this matter at all, but sorrow. Sorrow for those who believe that what is wrong is really right. Sorrow for their very soul and the horrible eternal consequences that await them, unless they repent and find salvation in Jesus Christ.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/gallery?o=30&f=/g/a/2008/06/09/samesexmarriage3.DTL&type=samesexmarriage
look at this!! Gross out max , its sulu !!!
Not to be a killjoy and disrupt the vigorous conversation on the sinfulness or propriety of homosexuality but the fact still stands that this whole debate began as a response to the legal decision to allow same sex marriages and it would be nice to return to that issue for some intelligent debate. The fact remains that despite the vehement rejection over religious grounds to the decision there has yet to be an actual argument as to why the decision is legally incorrect or inappropriate. Thankfully, religious sentiments cannot be integrated into the law insomuch as doing so would violate the first amendment. By excessively entangling the law and religion, which clearly prohibiting gay marriage on the basis that it is immoral and sinful would be, any such prohibition would run afoul of the constitution and indirectly serve as an unconstitutional establishment of a religious tenet. So laying down the gauntlet of challenge I still implore the Christian community to come up with an argument as to why a state would have a compelling interest in prohibiting gay marriage that could not be accomplished through a less restrictive means. In so much as a court really wouldn't acknowledge scriptural quotations indulge me in a mental exercise and put forth an argument that a person challenging this decision would make in front of a judge in the hopes of overturning it.
None of you (heterosexuals - unless you have a gay child or sibling, etc.) will EVER understand just how libertaing this CA ruling is. It is humanizing to a degree you just can't understand...I don't expect you to.
And you think YOU all have it bad? I'd really love to understand this. Since when is bigotry against Christians (who represent over 80% of this country) institutionalized or enshrined in the laws of the state? Can you explain that to me?
If you're gay, regardless of if you live in New York City or central Kansas, there are some elements of your life you will be forced to hide.
I will be back in a little while to continue this discussion.
I could be in a relationship for 30 years, have my partner die, and suddenly, his long-lost cousin can come out of the woodwork and take his inheritence. Is that fair? Because that happens my friends. All the time. Do you undergo that? Do you hide who your wife is at work? Do you hold her hand walking down the street? Do you bring a female friend to a work party instead of your partner to avoid attracting attention? Do you avoid saying what you did on the weekend (i.e. my partner and I went to a play....)? This is reality.
Um...I can't get married nor serve openly in the military and I can still get fired in a majority of states for being gay. Also, someone can beat the cr@p out of me solely for being gay and not have that considered hate crime. I'm sorry - who is a second class citizen?
gay,
As a Christian, I know very well what being treated like a second class citizen is like. We are called fundamentalists,bigots,crazy,insane,etc,and are in the direct line of sight of the spewing venom of the homosexual lobby. Yes you have it so bad.
Prophet - my apologies. you're right.
Are you listening to that? Before you knee-jerk react, think about that. There is no reason I should be forced to navigate the legal world, spending thousands to create customized contracts that govern my relationship when the heterosexual world needs only a marriage license. I am not a heterosexual. Never was. Never will be. The laws need to accomodate all citizens. Not just you. Do you really get that?
Christians are second class citizens too, my friend.
gay,
Did you ever think that labelling a Christian as loony is offensive? I would appreciate it if you would practice the same tolerance you expect of others.
In other words, do not ego-centrically consider yourselves in possession of some all-powerful truths. They are not. They are myths you have faith in. That said, if you cannot provide any scientifically-based justifications for my second-class citizenry, then bud out.
KB - you and your co-religionist ilk make this my business. I am a gay man. I am second class citizen. And your opposition to my rights is rooted in myths.
"And before you retort, "but the Bible says......" I don't care what the Bible says. "
Then why are you on here? This is the Christian Post, not the atheistic atrium.
And before you retort, "but the Bible says......" I don't care what the Bible says. Or the Koran. Or the Gita. Or the Torah.
Have any of the Christians considered that labeling a gay relationship "sinful" is offensive to the gay couple?
But -- as I said -- it cuts both ways. Once I was TRYING to insult a friend of mine on e-mail -- and he did not even notice it.
This posting cuts both ways, kboswell. We can't see one anothers' faces as we quickly (and, in my case, sometimes quite thoughtlessly) toss off a rejoinder or new thought. I expect everyone on this post knew that you were praising wbmoore.
gay,
You said "Have you ever thought for yourself Prophet?"
I was hoping someone would ask. Yes I do. And when I started thinking for myself I realized that God is real, the Bible is Truth, and that I wanted to live a life worthy of God's grace.
So, yes, I think for myself.
kboswell, thanks. hlerwin was correct, in that I had a good idea of what oyu meant. But I still thought it was funny.
wbmoore-
I just liked how you put it all in easy to read and understand plain English. Sometimes that's harder to do than we think.
hlerwin-
Thank you for your rebuke. You are correct though, that was a poor choice of words. I should have said that was a very well thought out and moving post. You are right, people on here have no way of knowing what was meant, they can only read what we write.
I'm always struck with the irony when people tell me great lesson or sermon, but then can't answer what stuck out about what I said, or what moved them...
hlerwin, you made me laugh with the meanig of incredible :)
kboswell, I think wbmoore knows what incredible really means (and he also knows that you meant it as a compliment). I'm always struck when people on the way out of church exclaim, "Wasn't that an incredible sermon?" (That's means "It could not be believed.) You and I should both pick better words.
I agree. At the very least, "parroting" is a loaded word. I'll try to use a a better word next time.
wbmoore -
Your post at 2:52 about how Romans teaches homosexuallity is a sin is incredible. I hope even the scoffers will be moved by it. Thanks for teaching the true Word.
hlerwin, I think people should think for themselves rather than just parroting the scriptures, would you not call that a form of ridicule?
Even where it is clear that Paul wrote his own thoughts, it is believed he was guided by the Holy Spirit.
The only known place where it is obvious that Paul is writing his thoughts and not God's is in 1 Corinthians 7. And there, he write some from God, and some from his own thoughts on the matter, and makes it clear which is which.
Otherwise, to my knowledge, conservative, Bible believing scholars teach that each writer of the book was writing as God directed - each with his own audience and purpose for writing, and style and language.
I appreciate wbmoore's thoughtful and thorough posts. I plan to read them again slowly tonight. Do any Biblical scholars ever consider the possibility (& this is a serious question) that St. Paul could have been wrong in some of his ideas?
When, believer, did I "ridicule?" I may have done so. If you'll point it out, I'll look and see if I misspoke.
gay, so like hlerwin and yes you have to resort to ridicule because that's the best weapon you have to refute the teachings of God's Word with regards to the sin of homosexuality.
Jesus said we are to obey His commands.
John 14:15
If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:21
21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
Paul taught the same: Acts 26:20,
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
James taught the same: James 2:14-17,
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Peter taught the same: Acts 5:29,
Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
The author of Hebrew taught the same: Hebrews 5:9,
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
John taught the same: 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Its about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him. We must love.
And loving someone does not mean allowing them to do something that is damaging them. It means helping them; it means confronting them gently with truth; it means not condoning bad behavior or a bad condition of heart; it means not judging the person to be bad or beneath you but to judge the behavior and evidence of the condition of their heart.
But ultimately, we have to love (God and our brothers) and obey (God).
Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying a person who is tempted toward a certain sin is any better or any worse than someone who is tempted toward a different sin. In God's eyes, all sin is horrible and He hates sin, but He loves us all enough to have sent His Son Jesus to take on human form to suffer and die for our sins, and be resurrected to show His power over death and His deity. If we accept what God has done, then we need only believe - but if we believe, then we must obey.
Christ said in Matthew 22:36-40,
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
And then Scripture also defines Love for God, - to obey God: 1 John 5:2-3
2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome
Just because someone says something does not make it so, even if they believe it. There are plenty of people who go to church and call Christ Savior and Lord, but when you look at their lives, its evident that they do not love God. To be a Christian involves following Christ - believing in Him and obeying God.
As for living a lifestyle of sin and claiming Christ as Savior, Christ said in Matthew 7:21-23,
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
John taught the same: 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
It is not about being justified by the Law. Its about being who God wants you to be. Its about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him.
But if you don't obey, then you don't love Him. You are breaking the greatest commandment. This will eventually lead to eternal death.
Paul wrote in Romans 6:12-16
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
So will you be a slave to your desires or a slave to obedience to Christ? if you say you love Christ, then you must obey.
As John said in 1 Jn 3:10,
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
How Does Romans Teach Homosexuality Is Sin?
First we have to recall that God said homosexual sex is wrong in Lev 18. He repeated this in Romans 1 (that would be where he called it degrading, impurity, dishonoring, unnatural, indecent).
Romans 3:20 says we are not found righteous by the Law, but it teaches us what sin is.
Romans 6:23 says we earn death with our sin.
The Old Testament gives many concrete examples of spiritual truths that are explicitly defined in the New Testament. The basic one of which is that God comes first in your life, then others.
Let’s say that you feel sexual attraction and even love for someone of the same gender. Let’s further posit that you want to marry this person. How can that be against the spirit of what Christ said were the two greatest laws, to love God and love others as yourself?
The answer is in Romans 1:19-32. Let me break it down:
1. By putting your desires above God's you are putting yourself, a created creature, in the place of God in your life.
2. By refusing to accept what God has said about homosexual sex being a sin, you are refusing to honor God.
3. By ignoring His word, you are being ungodly, and suppressing the truth.
4. By saying that your thoughts on the subject are more important that God's thoughts on it, you are exchanging the truth of God for your own thoughts.
5. If you want to sin and ignore God, you are certainly free to do so. God will eventually give you more and more of it, until you reap what you sow. When anything takes the place of God in your life (whether its a TV, a job, a person, yourself, your desires, your fears, money, fame, a carved idol, etc), then you are sinning. If you continue to do so, you are hardening your heart. God will eventually give you over to that sin - He will eventually harden your heart.
6. Your sin will eventually move from a personal hidden thing to a public thing, to a thing where you approve of others doing your sin.
7. And your sin will cause you to do other unrighteous things.
Now, this goes against what Christ said were the two greatest commands because if you truly loved God OR yourself, you will love God with all your strength, mind, and spirit. You would be obedient to GOD rather than thinking your thoughts and feelings should take precedence over what God has said.
But instead, you choose to argue and justify rather than Love and Obey.
Christ is only the savior for those who trust in His saving work -- and if He is, then they will obey Him, If they do not obey, then that is evidence that He is not their savior.
Hebrews 5:9,
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
You are free to disagree with Scripture. That's between you and God. However, Paul wrote in Romans about homosexuality.
Romans 1:22-32
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Note that God called sex with people of the same gender sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, indecent, and perversion, and something that ought not to be done.
Why Christians should care about any given sin in our society?
Focusing on any given sin by the church tends happen once that sin comes to the forefront of our society. We have to deal with each sin as it manifests in our lives, individually. And from my perspective, no sin is worse or better than any other sin. As we mature in Christ, we individually need to leave sin after sin behind.
Each of us needs to do this. In the process, we need to find ways of sharing God's love with all sinners, including liars, the sexually immoral, and others who live patterns of sin. But we also have to not let people call good what God has called evil. Most people recognize that murder and rape are sins. So people do not try to step forward and demand to be allowed to do them.
Just because Christ did not focus on a given sin is no reason to think he thought it was ok. He dealt with issues of the heart with some concrete examples. He mentioned problems that were common in that day. For example, Christ did not mention homosexuality directly, but He didn't mention rape either. I don't hear anyone justifying that sin. Nor do I hear rapists coming forward saying they ought to have a right to rape.
Sin is sin, and it is God who decides what constitutes sin. We have the responsibility to ensure society is not damaged by people trying to justify their selfish behavior.
As society continues to move in a direction against God, it becomes increasingly difficult not to be adversely affected by blatant manifestations of sin. While I am responsible for myself, this does not obviate the effect of society accepting sin has on me. The same is true for anyone attempting to raise children in this society. It becomes increasingly difficult to teach God's standards and expect children (whose ideas and morals are formed by what they see, hear, and experience) to embrace those ideals. It is faith in Christ that softens the heart and is reflected in a positively changed life. James and Paul both said we need to repent - which means change - and live lives that reflect that change. If one believes the word of God about needing faith in Christ, then one must live a life that reflects a changed heart. We must be obedient to Christ and help others to do the same.
That is why I think Bible believing Christians focus on any given issue at all, such as homosexuality. I doubt it would be an issue for many of us if there weren’t this tiny but loudly vocal group trying to get us to embrace (not just tolerate) a particular sin
he said Mr. Jew, because that's a short hand for the nick of one of the posters on this thread: Yes_I_am_a_Jew.
You got to love it when another "pious" "peace-loving" Christian refers to a human being as "Mr Jew." What do you expect? The "Christian" party is also the party of war, division, environmental degradation, fear of immigrants, invasion, unilateral action, unbridled corporate profiteering, against universal healthcare, and anti-science. Any surprises here? And where do most of the people reside in this country? Small-town (small-mind) America - not exactly the bastion of a Harvard education.
Have you ever thought for yourself Prophet?
hlerwin, you think I should "think for myself?" Is that what you're getting at?
I think I did seem to parrot Yes_I_am_a_Jew a few posts back. I think we both sent a post at the same time with the word "parrot" in it! But I don't know Yes_I_am, and I don't really parrot him. His writing is much more erudite than mine. I do admire his mind, as I do some other minds on this Web site.
hlerwin, your ability to parrot yes is amazing with your ability to condemn those of us who quote from the Scriptures. Isn't it amazing that when we attend a serious debating competition or prepare a thesis or term paper that one of the key components is to substantiate your presentation by citing the sources of your research as well as using quotes from your source, but if you quote from the Word of God somehow that makes one a glorified parrot. Or could it be that ridicule is your's and yes's best defense when it comes to refuting the truths taught in the Word of God about the sin of homosexuality?
Kboswell- nothing is left to be said to Mr. Jew. You have put it very plain. I agree with evrything you said. Keep on telling it just like it is. God Loves that!
So, hlerwin, you think I should "think for myself?" Is that what you're getting at?
I did not call anyone a fool for the Bible says call no man a fool. However if the shoe fits.......What I say was a qoute from God's Word which say you can not talk sense to a fool because they can't comprehend it. My statement had nothing to do will spelling or grammar for I sometimes make errors in that field. It did however had everything to do with what the word of God says.
Just reading between the lines, I suspect that Yes_I_am_a_Jew can laugh at himself more easily than most of you vinegary ones.
My friend Billy Weinstein says that God picked the Jews because they could laugh at themselves. I wish more people on this board could do that. Deadly serious group, mostly......
I don't condemn a Christian or a Buddhist (or a Mormon or a Hindu, for that matter) just because he or she does not agree with me. I do think people should be able to dicuss their persuasions rationally, though (rather than just parroting scripture).
Yes_I_am_a_Jew-
Seeing this is a Christian message board, everything has to do with scripture. As far as utterances of glorified parrots, You come to this board speaking of tolerance, then you go on to trash the Holy Bible and set yourself on an intellectual pedestal? What a hypocrite you are. No wonder God referred to the Jews as a "stiff necked people". Yes, it is arrogance, as you have made it very clear how you are a law student in NY, and how you are so much more enlightened than we simpletons here. As far as your arguments go, God settled the debate in both the Old and New testaments long ago. If you wish to supercede the Word of God with the law of man, then that is your choice.
hlerwin,
You said "I read in the news this morning that Tiger Woods (to introduce another odd topic into this discussion) is a Buddhist. Bless him....at least he is free from all this constant wrangling over dots and tittles in scripture. "
So a man comes out and says he's Buddhist and everyone applauds. Someone comes out and says he's Christian, and everyone condemns. So much for the tolerance that the humanists and postmodernists speak so highly of.
Still, chosen's errors in syntax, spelling and punctuation may only make him appear to be a fool. I neither know, nor would I claim, that he is one.
I flagged myself. I figure it's probably something I shouldn't say. lol
Sorry, kboswell, I was quoting chosen. He/she was addressing you, and I should have put that text in quotes.
It's not arrogance rather a sense of satisfaction knowing that not a single person on this board has come close to debating or disproving my arguments on the merits or anything coming close to them. Scripture doesn't count as an argument and absent original thought they are but mere utterances of glorified parrots.
Prophet,
Thank goodness, I am certainly glad to see you.
hlerwin, you said "The Apocrypha are works that were left out by busy men on committees who were trying to maintain control over there flocks. I'm amazed that so many "hard sayings" of Jesus got through! "
And you were there?
I read one of your posts where you ask how we know that there will be no marriage in heaven. Jesus said it Himself.
God help America as it embraces sin. Let us pray for those who's eyes have been blinded by the evil one. Pray that God will raise up a remnant of people who will stand in the truth and not be swayed by men's evil desires. We need to continue to warn those in sin of their consequences. Warn them that somehow they will turn from their ways and turn to God.
hlerwin,
The scripture says it is foolishness to them that perish. Rebuke,reprove,or justify yourself by the Word, not by me.
Yes_I_am_a_Jew,
Your arrogance speaks volumes about you.
That's right(sic) Kboswell....and yiou(sic) have to remember...the word of God say(sic) that you can't talk sense to a fool, because they(sic) can't comprehend it. And who is a fool?
@chosen: You are SO right about that. On that note I think I'll let you all stew on my points despite their being beyond your collective comprehension.
That's right Kboswell....and yiou have to remember...the word of God say that you can't talk sense to a fool, because they can't comprehend it.
There's no language more beautiful or instructive than scripture.
hlerwin, here is some as you refer to it "outmoded" scripture to chew on,though I doubt you will understand it.
1 Corinthians:
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
As for igh's claiming Jewishness for Christians, I put that in the same category as Zionist Christians waiting and praying for Jews to become "completed;" that is, "Christian." That category: "Weird stuff"
Or
Yep, I said it. So "Don't put a period where God intended a comma........." Use your mind.
Yep, I said it. So "Don't put a period where God intended a comma........." Use you mind.
"But it's painful for many people to use the minds God gave them"
You said it.
I admire the motto of the Congregational Church: "Don't put a period where God intended a comma," But it's painful for many people to use the minds God gave them.And, Yes_I_am, I knew you were not proselytizing. I wish others weren't.
So you're saying the unverified works of the Apocrypha are more relevant than the words of Jesus Christ?
I read in the news this morning that Tiger Woods (to introduce another odd topic into this discussion) is a Buddhist. Bless him....at least he is free from all this constant wrangling over dots and tittles in scripture.
@hlerwin: Much appreciated but the only goal I have here is to inspire some introspective thinking, separate from dogmatic reflexes. Religion is a beautiful thing and was the original philosophy and therapy rolled into one. Unfortunately when it becomes ossified and detached from the minds of its adherents it transmutes into something it was never intended to be. Religion is a blueprint and foundation for our spiritual evolution not an outright completed roadmap. Without internalization of tenets to the point where one knows inherently what is right and wrong without having to resort to scripture religion has failed to serve its purpose.
The Apocrypha are works that were left out by busy men on committees who were trying to maintain control over there flocks. I'm amazed that so many "hard sayings" of Jesus got through!
@kboswell: I can't speak for all Jews but personally I don't have intolerance for them but I do look at them with some skepticism insomuch as they seem to be Christians parading under the guise of Jews and conduct the practice of trying to convert others to their beliefs. In reality there is little difference between a Jew for Jesus and a Christian for Jesus and perhaps the insistence on retaining the "Jew" classification is what sets some people off. I don't mistreat them or rail against their right to believe as they please. They can be Jews for Buddha or Vishnu for all I care. The only reason I look to them with skepticism is that I don't feel it necessary for a complete stranger to approach me in the subway asking if I've found religion. I go to synagogue for that.
I agree with everything Yes_I_am_a_Jew writes. What a breath of fresh air. Maybe I should convert.
Yes_I_am_a_Jew -
As for tolerance, why are Messianic Jews so discriminated against by their own people?
Yes_I_am_a_Jew-
Many Bibles include the apocryphal works. The Apocrypha are texts of uncertain authenticity or writings where the authorship is questioned. They cannot be verified,and as such can't be as trusted as true scripture.
hlerwin- As far as marriages go...I did not make that up. The Word of God says "that in heaven there will be no marriages and none given in marriage. ( not to other people). We all will be marriage to the Lord. When I find the passage, I will tell you where to find it.
@kboswell: One of the main reasons for the high rate of agreement was that it was intentionally accomplished in the many councils held during christianity's early history. If you want to include the apocryphal works then the rate of agreement goes down drastically. When I go through a store and pick all of the clothing that matches it's pretty easy to say that they're all compatible...
@igh: I repeat, there is no requirement of believing in Jesus to be a Jew. I would have remembered learning that in hebrew school and in synagogue. By your logic all the christians are jews? That makes a lot of sense.
According to the midrash, to be christian you have to wear a clown nose and big floppy shoes. See how ridiculous it is trying to prove inclusion in a different religion using your own religious texts? And on a similar note, if you are all jews then that would make you responsible for killing jesus, no? Glad to have that off my conscience.
hlerwin- Yes, I am satisfied with the comfort of knowing that God will handle this. I no, I do not have to do a thing. The Word of God says "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay". So what should I do? You guess it...let God Handle this. I have no heaven or hell to place anyone in.
But that's the very problem with this situation. I respect that your god says that gays are bad and evil, despite vehemently agreeing with it; however, that shouldn't have any bearing upon this legal decision to allow these kinds of unions. Religious ideals, under the constitution of this fine nation, are not to be entangled with the laws and political decisions made here. The fact that you are justifying your opposition to this law on the basis of religious belief shows that this is an attempt to enshrine this particular belief in state law. Until the moral majority can rewrite the constitution such decisions as this one to allow gay unions will be permissible and constitutionally valid.
anyone who rejects Jesus is not a Jew. you may say this n that about yerself but the facts are this, you gotta have faith Baby!
I seen Jesus on his throne in Heaven. How's that for God doing something wonderful for me. Imagine me, a nobody taken to Heaven because God thinks im a Somebody!! God thinks Gays are somebodys too, but they gotta repent and believe the Good News and on the one who brought it!
Gays however think differently than God , and as an result would bring the usa and world down to there level. And that is persecution of God's children, even to putting them to death. Just the way the people of the world think is on evil continually, God says this is so.
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Yes_I_am_a_Jew -
New Testament manuscripts agree in 99.5% of the text (compared to only 95% for the Iliad). Most of the discrepancies are in spelling and word order. A few words have been changed or added. Most Bibles include the options as footnotes when there are discrepancies. How could there be such accuracy over a period of 1,400 years of copying? Two reasons: The scribes that did the copying had meticulous methods for checking their copies for errors. 2) The Holy Spirit made sure we would have an accurate copy of God's word so we would not be deceived. The Mormons, theological liberals as well as other cults and false religions such as Islam that claim the Bible has been tampered with are completely proven false by the extensive, historical manuscript evidence.
Jew- I agree that heterosexual relationships are sometimes lustful as well. I also agree that there may be gay relationships built on what they think is real intimacy. But does that make it right because they love each other in a way that is forbidden before God? I don't doubt the true feelings of gay relationships. I just contend with what MY God say. It should not be.
igh: Oh, I'm a Jew and we have a word for people like you, SCHMUCK. Aside from the fact that you're quoting a christian text (which I don't acknowledge as anything) to prove tenets of judiasm, the fact that my family and ancestors have been driven out of numerous countries and put to death for being as I am, I'm going to safely say that I'm plenty jewish. If that's not enough I have glasses and practice law in NY. Jewish enough for you?
As for the rest of your meaningless psychobable, riddled with poor grammar and spelling mistakes, it's really quite sad that you have been dogmatically trained to unquestionably vest your faith in a book that has been edited, revised and changed so many times that it's authenticity is highly questionable. I have a feeling that you have completely missed the point of Jesus' teachings when you say that tolerance doesn't matter and that it only leads to damnation. I consider the message of love and tolerance offered by Jesus to be spiritually inspiring and much like how Islam was corrupted by the interpretation and refashioning by imams it has taken christian practitioners to sully a message of love and understanding into one of intolerance and hatred for those who are unlike you and don't share the same views and values. If Jesus could see you now, bandying about the he who is not with me is against me slogan, I think he would be very, very disappointed.
@ Yes_I_am_a_Jew , You are not a Jew.
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Hey but I Am a son of Abraham! Wouldnt you like to be one too?
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
And i have one Word for you and it aint tolerance.. ITS TRUTH.
Those gays and lesbians and bisexuals and tranvestites and transexuals and all the rest, Need Jesus and being "tolerant" damns them to hellfire you are the one who doesnt love, and its ones like you who stand in the way of God Almighty and his Loving work to Save them from hellfire. Think about it.
Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
"Newsom planned to preside at the wedding of lesbian rights activists Del Martin, 87, and Phyllis Lyon, 84, the only couple scheduled to receive a marriage license in the city on Monday."
That is disgusting! i cant imagine two great grandmothers smooching! ACK!! Gross, i think im gona hurl......... :^O~~~~~
There i did.
@gavulav: How is it exactly that you know that the feelings between to homosexuals in a committed relationship is lust and not love? Love is defined by merriam-webster as, "strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties." Where in that definition does it say that such affection can't exist between two individuals of the same sex? Certainly there are gay relationships based on lust, but there are also heterosexual ones based on lust too. Finding proof of one bad relationship doesn't discredit them all. A number of close personal friends of mine have been in committed, loving and monogamous gay relationships for years. Seeing one standing at the foot of the other's hospital bed after cancer treatments with a look of concern and devotion in his eyes is hardly lust. The most unfortunate thing of all is that in your collective quest to attain holiness and salvation you actively try to destroy the happy lives of others. Likewise, in their pursuit of equality and recognition the gays tend to creep out and annoy the more conservative members of our society. I have one word for everyone, gay and christian alike: TOLERANCE.
It hard not to think that you, chosen, are so pleased to be in the "in" crowd -- with the "right people." Let God do the damning, huh.... You can just sit on the side with a very pleased look on your face while God is doing that one day.
"....no marriage in heaven," you say? How can you know such a thing?
I think our garndchildren are more interested in "real," than "nice."
Chosen...it IS our place to talk about GOD's position on same-sex marriage and I will continue speak against what is spoken against in Scripture. That is what the 'chosen' do. That is what is required of us.
The Bible speaks quite clear about lust of the flesh and clearly calls same-sex "passions" are lust. (Romans 1) It is dishonoring themselves. The Bible has no need to repeat itself and only does when it comes to the hard-headedness of mankind. The concept of marriage being between one man and one woman is repeated. There were even two cities destroyed for it.
I will continue to speak out against same-sex 'relationships' the same way I speak out against drug and drink abuse. I've seen what these things do to peoples lives and God's way is better.
2 Timothy chapter 3 sums it up rather nicely.
I will not bash the legalization of same sex marriages. What I have to say does not matter. We all will answer to God for our actions whether they be good or bad. They ones that choose to be lovers of themselves will be judged. It is not my place to judge anyone. Just because I don't approve and do belive what God says in His word about such sinful acts, does not make it right for me to criticize. However, one thing will surely happen. God is gonna separate the right from the wrong. It is written! One man for one woman was God's intentions concerning marriage. Let them enjoy the fruits of their lust on earth for their no marriage in heaven.
You and I suffer -- just as Jesus did -- under views passed to us from our parents and grandparents. I assure you that your children (or grandchildren) will not suffer with predjudices you and I have. They'll be better people for that.
hlerwin,
I went and read a couple of websites disputing the existance of hell, but here are a few Biblical references to that place of eternal damnation:
The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am tormented in this FLAME."
In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."
Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."
Revelation 14:10 says, " . . . and he shall be tormented with fire and BRIMSTONE . . ."
These are just a few references. I will have to stand on what the Word says, hopefully, for the souls of countless multitudes, the Word was mistranslated, but I would not risk eternity on it.
I was talking about hell, as you were asking about their neighboring tribes, but I will reseach it.
If you don't know where the Hebrews come in, look it up.
Don't know where it came in to play with the Hebrews, but Jesus mentioned it many times. That's good enough for me.
I went to Russia once. One woman on the trip thought the Russians "had no church," because it was different from her church back home in the US. She said, "That's explain a lot about the Russians."
Didn't the Hebrews adopt the idea of hell from from some of their neighbors (polytheistic tribes) shortly before Jesus was born?
I didn't really figure you did. It explains a lot of your views .
I don't really believe in hell.
To all homos on CP, why don't you find a gay board to play on? Since you don't like all this religeon, then by all means you are free to leave.
hlerwin,
You don't want to change anyones mind? I know you claim to be a Christian, so I must ask you, do you believe in Hell?
To all homophobes on CP, how about this, mind your own business, live and let live. If a person is attracted to the same sex, thats how they were made and its none of your business. Get a life, mind your business............and stay out of others. There sure is a lot of religious fanaticism on this site.
The gay agenda is often mentioned these days. What about the Christian agenda? Has there ever been an agenda more well organized or more geared to changing people's minds than the Christian agenda. I don't want to change anyone's mind. And those who do (gay or Christian) should spend time on other pursuits.
Biggie said -
"Christians - I am proud of your progress you have achieved so much in changing your beliefs during the past two millenia. I know you will eventually do what's right, and accept Love."
This is called the apostate/Laodecedan church. We believers were warned of this just as we were forewarned of this celebration of wickedness. God made it very clear through His Word that He changes not. So if a church changes, then it's to appease man, not to glorify God.You make a very good point though. Those who do know the scriptures know that their redemption is drawing near.
Abomination. Utter abomination. And there are those here celebrating it. They revel and glory in the act of denying and defying God's word. God forgive them, they know not what they do.
Prophet...
AMEN.
biggie.......
Don't worry about giving advice to us Christians about "same-sex marriages" for we have never been more certain, as we are now, about what is wrong in the eyes of God . And the word you are looking for to express that thing which exists between gay couples is "lust" not "love" - there is a world of difference between them.
God be with America.
Even when those who profess to serve a holy God, they themselves live in sin...may God withold His judgment.
Even when they turn the truth of God into a lie...may God's mercy be extended.
Even when they call evil good, and good evil...may God's patience continue.
When they call His children names and revile them, Lord God do not lay your wratch upon them.
Though they seek to live in darkness, let your children be the light. And those who have fallen will cover their eyes and scream for their sin has been exposed, and there is now not excuse.
Our God, even when they recreate you into their image, to suit their desires, please let your judgment pass.
But, lo, when they exalt themselves above God they will share the fate that awaits Satan and his demons. When they say that they are too good for God's will, they will fall. Those that profess tolerance as a veil to cover their acceptance of sin will be judged and will cry for they will know that they have sinned.
But Lord you will uphold the righteous and pure of heart. Holiness is your right arm, love is your left arm. You chastise those whom you love. And those of your children who have become rebellious, those you will chastise. And they will curse you, O God. And their sin will eat them as the maggots eat the rotting flesh. Their prayers will go unheard, for their unrepentant heart. For they have corrupted the Word of God, and made it a cause to sin.
God Bless America!
Land that I love!
I am truly proud of all Americans for their tolerance and acceptance of others who are different from them into the family!
Christians - behold! This is a wonderous day! For your hearts have melted with love and admiration for LOVE in its graceful beauty.
Same-Sex Marriages have begun in California.
This is a historic day and a turning point advancing all that is good about America.
God Bless the wonderful country America is becoming. Embracing views of acceptance, embracing change, and abiding by its values enshrined in its Constitution.
Gay-haters: Do not fear this day. For as you learned to accept racial tolerance. The vast majority of you will also accept same-sex couples.
As you have learned to accept the world is not flat, that the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth, so too will you one day accept that Jesus Christ represents Love. And Love is what is being shared today between same-sex couples.
Christians - do not shed a tear for this historic day. For I know you have greatness within you. To accept change. To embrace Love. And to reinterpret your texts in a modern age based on love, acceptance, tolerance, and mutual respect.
Christians - I am proud of your progress you have achieved so much in changing your beliefs during the past two millenia. I know you will eventually do what's right, and accept Love.
God Bless all of the Same-Sex Couples getting married! Your wedding vows represent Love, and the Love of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit embraces the sanctity of your Love!
In debate terms: When you stoop to demeaning - it's a good indication you're losing torus
Torus just made a fool of himself! Plain and simple.
maybe torus would like to change his screen name to Cornelius?
those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom Of Christ Jesus, and anyone who claimes to be born again and love Jesus are in no way talking about the Biblical Christ Jesus, they have made a god in their own image to suit their immoral life style!Leviticus 18
Alll those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of Christ Jesus! leviticus 18:22, and Galatians 5:16-21. It is clear in God's word than homosexuality is a Sin. And there is no such thing as a Christian Homosexual! People are not born that way, it is a choice! The biblical Jesus does in no way condone immoral lifestyles! Those who say they are christians and practice such things have made a god in their own image to suit their evil lifestyle!
maybe he can go and find a monkey and ask it. he seems to get all his view of homosexuality from the animal kingdom
torus,
ouch. hold on. let me practice my fake tears....no....nope....sorry. i can't even pretend that i was offended by what you said. try harder.
torus -
Actually, while you scramble for some science - which by the way can easily be proven to make errors in and of itself - let me help you out. Now society in the past has ever lasted that had any gay activity. Proven!
Leviticus 18: 22 say's you shall not lie with a mmale as with a woman. It is an abomination.Also Romans 1: 24-27 Therefore God gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. People are not born gay, it is a choice, it is Sin! The bible makes this very clear. All who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom O
Hey torus -
If you're so bright, why don't you enlighten us with some scientific facts related to how the gay agenda positively moves society forward rather than shoot others down with remarks that a grade school kid can throw out.
merkin:
That article proves nothing. Read the last paragraph.
jester - Are you really as dumb as your posts indicate or are you pretending for effect? Your posts are full of logical fallacies, grammatical and spelling mistakes and in general knowledge which is outdated and/or very basic in nature. My assumption when I post is that the people I interact with have at least high-school knowledge of science and reason, not to mention at least basic knowledge of contemporary arguments in philosophy. You are quite hopeless.
I think its funny because all they flagged was general, non-topic conversation that Proph and i were having.
Everybody should read this article:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html?feedId=online-news_rss20
Maybe the flaggers are only after jester and proph. ???
As if you can shut out The Word of God?? I don't think so.
The Flagger(s) has arrived. They're trying to erase any discussion that reflects negatively on the gay agenda.
Someone is not happy about discussing this topic.
It is a sign of the times ,gay marriage becomes legal in California, while homeschool becomes illegal! We pray come quickly Lord Jesus! Good has become evil, and evil has become good.
Oh...here and there. mostly in the wilderness wearing camel skin and eating honey and locust. lol
Halloween -
About the Muslims (darn I was hoping to bait one onto this post) - simply ask the Canadians, France and the UK about the Muslim influence. The U.S. may actually get their first Muslim President - his name is Obama!!!! LOL
Halloween -
Congratulations - China accepts NEITHER gay marriage or gay civil unions. They must not have "arrived" yet.
halloween,
What's going to stop them? Since we're an "anything goes" society now, they will manipulate the legal system just as the homosexuals have.Anyone who stands against them will be crushed under the liberal court system.
torus -
You may want to look up the definition of morals
If I may add to this post.
Jew, I do love the homosexuals as I love myself. I love them enough to warn them of their sin and the result that waits for them. I do not want them to die. But if they continue to live in sin, they will surely die.
James 5:19-20 "19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
Would you not tell your child that they couldn't play on the freeway? That is how God views us. Homosexuals are wanting to play on the freeway, and God is telling them that they shouldn't because of what will happen. And they thumb their nose at God and say "God will understand."
Homosexual Christians are simply lazy Christians who don't want to change. "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind."
I'll just add one more thing: muslims will NEVER have the power you're saying they'll have. Because the new economic leader will be CHINA, not some muslim country. And in China, only a very small percentage of the population have ANY relligion at all. So, don't put your hopes too high. About ANYTHING at all.
rolln4him -
This origins of homosexuality are unclear. We do know that it appears in many species other than humans (this is evidence that we're born with it) and that from talking to homosexuals we understand that this is not a result of any particular formative event in their past (gay men did not suffer from more abuse or have worse relationships with parents, for example).
As regards "imposing my morals", I'll say it again, this has nothing to do with morals. I'm just of the opinion that mature adults who love each other should have equal rights. I'm not forcing straight men to marry other straight men.
Jew -
Thanks for giving us your honest perspective. We Christians obviously take your Torah seriously (sorry you don't thus we align closer to your orthodox branch), so we therefore also think homosexuality is sin. We therefore fight for our rights not to be trampled on.
One thing we may have in common - Jews, Christians, and Gays were in concentration camps during WWII
This born gay thing is just another lie that keeps surfacing. I remember reading in a college text book that being gay was born. I was baffled, so I looked up the book's reference and it gave a study back in 1992 that stated "inconclusive" evidence that people are born gay. I challenged my professor and she wasn't able to give an answer for the ill- referenced book. So I called the publisher and called and called and called and called to no avail - no accountability. Shame on those that spread lies to push an agenda. We Christians call this EVIL.
@rolln4him: There's no conclusive scientific proof either way regarding the nature vs. nurture debate so that's a point that both sides will have to drop until it's determined definitively. I would say that the best we can do is honestly and frankly talk with some gays and get their take on it.
torus -
Additionally, I'm glad you have YOUR MORALs, but are you imposing YOUR MORALS on other?
torus -
True - I didn't pay much attention, but let's make it very clear with your scientific evidence. There is none in regard to being gay. That's been a lie that has been going around in the media - you're not born gay.
jester - I addressed the polygamy (and polyandry) question already in this thread. As regards incest, let me be fairly clear: I have no problem with two adults doing as they want provided they are cognitively aware of what they are doing and provided it has no measurable adverse impact on a rational society.
rolln4him - I never said that all laws are based on scientific evidence, simply that my response to your question was based on scientific evidence. Pay attention.
halloween;
I had to look back on some of the posts and I didn't read anything that states that gays should be killed. Your presuming something that may happen in other countries perhaps.
You're right though, sex outside marriage is a sin, but since it's good that you too recognize that gay activity is a sin.
halloween,
Homosexuallity is a sin punishable by death in Islam. They will kill homosexuals, go to Iran or Iraq and parade down the street in drag, they will kill you without a second thought.
Just because the ultra orthodox believe something that doesn't make it the majority view. The bulk of Jews in NY and worldwide are cultural Jews who do not live their lives out of the torah, midrash or any other religious texts. We've all gone to hebrew school and listened to our rabbi's sermons to know the spirit of Judaism.
My rabbi shared a piece of wisdom about terrorism that almost seems appropriate here. He said, "When they love their children as much as they hate us there can be peace." It seems like you should be loving the people around you and doing your part to help them turn out how you see proper and allowing those gays who want to marry to do so without your interference. Once they're married they're married and they won't be clamoring for additional rights because there won't be anything left for them to aspire toward in terms of gaining equality.
I don't feel that I need to turn to a book to find what my religious teaching has taught me is right. The rabbinate has spent hundreds of generations writing commentaries and interpretations on what the holy texts could be interpreted to mean. The base nature of judaism is to ask why as opposed to blind dogma. Why is it so horrible for two consenting adults to find love in one another?
Jester, your arguments are preposterous. If transgenders want to get married they would be allowed to do so under my below definition. Polygamists would not be entitled to do so because it would entail more than 2 people and I won't even dignify the bestiality remark with a response. If you all spent the amount of time loving and raising your children properly and minding your own business rather than intruding on other's lives the world would be a far better place.
What?! You think muslims should kill gays?! You have a serious mental illness, that's what you have. And, you know what? NO RELIGION can cure that! And do you know what the bible says about people who wish death to other people? You have to be careful, you're so obsessive about redemption that... you probably won't get it.
Oh, and one more thing: read the entire bible. Do not read only some passages that your church told you to do. Sex before marriage, for example: how many young people you know that only have have sex after marriage? Don't you know that's also a sin?
Ok, i'll stop now. Get treatment, you seriously need it. And pray that God can forgive you for hating others the way you do. But i seriously doubt he will.
kboswell -
Praise the Lord for you courageous church. Olsteen will have to face the day when the gay community will force his hand one way or the other. Or I may say God will force him to be hot or cold.
rolln4him,
Unfortunately, the sodomites have gotten their claws into the church. My pastor still fires at will on them, but most of the larger congregations are more worried about a feel good message than teaching the fear of the Almighty. Look at Joel Olsteen.
Though we need to confront the heathen; we also know that there are true "searchers" who want to know Christ when they come these sites.
"unfortunately, tact is not a talent that God gave me. I tend to be a little brash quite often"
You're doing great, keep up the good work.
To be honest, I'm tired of our pulpits running from this topic as well. We must stand up and fight. I think this marriage issue has ignited many in the Christian community.
In the words of the late great Charles H. Spurgeon,when criticized by scoffers: "It's in a dogs nature to bark" he said. Words of wisdom from long ago.
Where are the cowards?!
thaks rolling4him.
unfortunately, tact is not a talent that God gave me. I tend to be a little brash quite often.
How come everyone left? Why doesn't anyone want to play with me?
jester -
you're right on the money with your last post. They would be hypocrites
Because this is the view of every gay-rights activist that comes in these chatrooms.
The door of marriage has been closed too long to anyone but one heterosexual male and one heterosexual female. So, the gay community pushes and pries and uses C4 and whatever else they can find to open the door just enough to let homosexuals in. And as the homosexuals are squeezing their way through the narrow opening they look back, shake their finger at polygamist, incest, etc, etc, etc and say "uh uh! You ain't comin in here! You're not good enough."
So, for so long the heterosexual community has been oppressing and denying the rights of the homosexual community. So, to get even, you treat those other groups the same way we treated you. Sounds like something Jesus would do.
Hyporcrite.
I_ am_jew:
So what is it that the Orthodox Jew reads that would cause them to believe that homosexual is a sin? You're in the minority and in NY which would explain a lot.
Jew,
That can change. That will change. It's only a matter of time. Remember the definition of marriage USED to be between a man and woman. That's changed. And you have your head in the sand if you think that the transgendered, incest and beastial proponents, and polygamists aren't in the wings just chompin at the bit for their turn.
And you're a hypocrite if you don't support them
And when you have you head in the sand,,,,guess what you leave hangin in the wind?
Yes_I_Am_A_Jew
I'm a Christian...and yes, I'm treated as a second class citizen. So I know all about it.
torus
Scientific evidence?? Ha! Ha! ha! You mean you actually think we base all our laws on scientific evidence? LOL! You are misguided. I can give you all kinds of "scientific evidence" that has been corrected and recorrected and recorrected .... Not to make too much fun of your statement, but you can't be serious
@jester_in_the_Kings_court: As I said earlier. The bottom line is that any marriage bill should be defining marriage as "the union between TWO HUMAN adults who have attained the legal age of consent within the state." This effectively gets rid of polygamy and child marriages and pet marriages and the like.
lol, jester your name fits you well. In a good way, that is.
I shouldn't argue with Torus though. He'll just drag me down to his level and beat me with stupidity.
@Rolln4him: I truly am a Jew. Bar mitzvahed and all that. For the fact of the matter, throughout my entire jewish community, which considering that I'm in NY is quite vast, I have yet to come across a single Jew who holds to the torah's view that homosexuality is a sin who isn't an ultra-orthodox Jew. Am I incredibly observant? I follow the spirit of jewish laws, and don't find myself preoccupy myself with the outdated dictates. Having studied Judaism, Christianity and Eastern Religions for a number of years before turning to law it is abundantly clear to me that religion is rooted in allegories meant to teach important lessons on human interaction and how to lead a "good life" and that as the gnostics put it best, those who take religious texts as straight truth without understanding the encoded teaching are at the lowest level of religious understanding.
As a point on the scouts, that was based on the fact that a model scout leader who had faithfully served the scouts and was beloved by the scouts and leadership alike was summarily dismissed upon the discovery of his sexuality. He had no prior history of sexual involvement with children nor had any of his prior scouts experienced "conversion" to a gay lifestyle. Certainly, as the supreme court stated it's a private organization and can set the rules as it pleases but there's no reason that they can't be publicly criticized for their exclusionist tendencies.
As for the gay agenda, how would you react if you were treated as a 2nd class citizen? Wouldn't you be inclined to fight for recognition? Also, it seems unfair to characterize all of them as activists based on the actions of the more vocal members of their community? You all get quite upset when people say that all priests are pedophiles when it was only some of them.
Torus,
Are you smarter than a 5th grader? Probably not, if you can't answer my question.
Do you agree with incestuous marriages and polygamy?
It looks like we scared off all the heathens from this sight. They're probably got our names and going to put us in concentration camps -
rolling4him,
It's called "being open-minded".
Yeah, they're so open minded their brain fell out, and their kickin it around the floor trying to pick it back up. Kinda like watchin a dog trying to pick up a frisbee off the hardwood floor...just keeps pushing it around...growlin and whining. But no matter who dumb they look they just keep trying.
rolln4him - I have bad news for you, my arguments are not based on moral but on scientific evidence and reason. Clearly animals are not cognitively equal to humans, data supports that fact. Similarly data supports the fact that in our society children below a certain age are not aware of the full ramifications of their actions and consequently need to be protected by society from making some of those choices.
jester - You're funny when you try to argue. Go away and come back when you've progressed beyond an elementary school education.
Colorado. Yehah! Go Broncos....and take the Rockes with you!
So now I have to worry about pedophiles posing as transgenders waiting for my little girl to go to the bathroom at Walmart so he can go in and expose hisself. And if I say anything, I will get slapped with a lawsuit. His argument? "Well, it is a public bathroom, and if she "happens" so see me...well, it just happens..."
God our country is sick.
jester - must be from Colorado or Maryland.
Insanity is ruling the day in America. Someone said that it's "forward thinking" ! Ha! It called demonic thinking.
ksoswell - great encouragement as the clouds of darkness roll in - rapture?
The governer of our fine state just passed a bill to make it okay for men to use women's bathrooms. Why? So that we don't "exclude" those poor, abused transgendered weirdos who really aren't sure which bathroom they should be using.
"Am I a girl? hmmm... Am I a boy? hmmm........God I'm sooooooo confused! I'm just gonna squat right here."
Our governor doesn't want that going on, so he's being poetically correct.
jester - Great points
rolln4him,
Sadly that day is coming. Most professed Christians in our country could be the poster children for the world. As we get weaker, the powers of darkness get stronger. But remember what Jesus said to the Church of Philidelphia: "Because thou hast kept the word of My patience,I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation,which shall come apun all the world,to try them that dwell upun the earth." Behold, my brother, our redemption draws near
Hey torus,
How can you deny someone from marryng their dog? Sheesh, wait until the ACLU gets a hold of you! Who says that both parties have to be "self-aware"? And if it does, realize how quickly that can change. Thrity years ago if you told someone that we would even THINK of gay marriages, they would have said the same thing: It won't happen.
I suppose you don't agree with incestuous marriages among adults, or polygamy? You hypocrite.
Besides, the definition of "child" varies from culture to culture. Some cultures claim that 13 is an adult. Try not to push your narrow, Western culture view on the rest of the world. </