A historic church in Egypt housing a display of Jesus' footprint has been damaged by a fire.
The fire, set off by an electrical fault, caused structural damage to the church and destroyed its altar, according to the Agence France-Presse reported, but did not damage the preserved stone.
Jesus and his family are believed to have stopped at the Sanctuary of the Church of the Virgin Mary, located in Sakha, during their flight from Bethlehem to Egypt to escape King Herod's attacks on children. They reportedly left an imprint of Jesus' foot on a rock that was put on display at the church.
The Coptic name of the Sakha is "Pekha -Issous" which means "the foot of Jesus." It is one of several locations in the Middle East that are said to have imprints of Jesus' footprints.
The Chapel of the Ascension in Jerusalem, the site believed to mark the place where Jesus ascended into heaven, also has a stone imprint of a footprint purportedly belonging to Jesus on display.
RSS
Brother,
The Catholic Church tries so hard to cover their divisions and put on a good face. But they are divided. And their belief that the Popes are infallible in their interpretation of the Scriptures is laughable at best. Every Pope has different views on certain scriptures. So if the infallibility of the Pope were true, then something is wrong with God.
And how can a fallible, sinful man be infallible in his interpretation of the scripture?
Prophet,
even just the first paragraph of the RCC Challenge is worth reprinting here:
"Results From the Roman Catholic Challenge
Recently we advertised that we would pay $100,000.00 to any Roman Catholic who could pin down the official Roman teaching about certain issues. The challenge was issued in response to the oft-argued, extremely tired line of reasoning that Protestantism is illegitimate by virtue of the differences in belief within Protestant denominations--or, as Scott Hahn likes to call it, the "anarchy" of Protestantism. Obviously if this line of argument is legitimate, then it must also act as a standard by which to measure the legitimacy of any religious system. So, we decided to test the Roman Catholic's own system using this same measure. "
(an excerpt from: http://www.ntrmin.org/rcchallenge.htm )
Very interesting links Prophet. Thanks.
Here is the unity of the Catholic Church
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5074599
http://www.ntrmin.org/RCDivisions.htm
brotheraaron, the answer is "Nowhere in the Bible are these things taught".
Num 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them [shall be] pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
And finally, once again:
Where in the Bible do we find Peter assuming and exercising the role of a Catholic pope?
Where does the Bible say the early churches treated Peter in a papal fashion?
Where does the Bible say that one man is the head of all churches?
Where does Bible say God established a special priesthood for the churches that is separate from the priesthood of the believers?
Where does the Bible describe the office of such priests in the early churches?
Where does the Bible say that New Testament priests are ordained after the order of Melchizedek?
Where in the Bible do we find a requirement that pastors be celibate?
Where does the Bible say the apostles passed on their authority through a succession?
Where does the Bible give standards for apostolic succession? There are standards for pastors and deacons, but where are the standards for an ongoing apostleship?
Where does the Bible describe nuns in the early churches?
Where in the Bible do we find anyone praying to Mary or to any other person other than God?
Where does the Bible call Mary the Mother of God?
Where does the Bible say that Mary is the Queen of Heaven?
Where in the Bible do we find the teaching that Mary is sinless?
Where in the Bible do we find the baptism of an infant who is too young to believe in Christ?
Where does the Bible teach us that the church can identify dead people as saints and can then pray to them?
Where does the Bible teach that a dead person can intercede for the living?
Where does the Bible teach about purgatory?
Where does the Bible teach that churches should use the bones of dead men in any type of religious manner?
Where does the Bible teach that the churches used indulgences?
Where in the Bible do we find even one example of a Catholic mass being conducted or even described? If Christ established the mass and if it is central to the Christian faith as Rome claims, why is there not one example of it in the book of Acts and the New Testament epistles?
Where in the Bible do we find Christians taking the Lord's supper by partaking of the bread alone without the wine or grape juice?
Where in the Bible does Paul or any of the early church leaders teach that there are seven sacraments?
Where in the Bible do we find the churches practicing the sacrament of confirmation?
Where in the Bible do we find the churches practicing any sort of extreme unction or last rites as a sacrament?
Where in the Bible do we find the prayer of the rosary?
Where in the Bible do we find that New Testament churches are to conduct elaborate rituals and ceremonies after the fashion of Rome?
Where in the Bible do we find that the headquarters for the church is to be in Rome?
Amen Star. However...
This is getting tiresome, isn't it? When you are trying to share the gospel with someone and they argue against it with circular reasoning, dishonesty and deflection... there comes a time to retreat into the cool of the evening and pray to God.
Mat 11:30 - For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Catholicism is not the pathway to God. Its teachings and practices are not scriptural.
As should you, St. Alphonsus Liguori had a deep love and respect for the Mother of Christ! Lk Ch 1, "and all generations shall call me blessed" Wilderness, have you called Mary blessed yet today? If not, why not, it's biblical. Jn 19:27, Wilderness, behold your mother. Have you beheld her yet? If not, why not, it's biblical! Yet St. Alphonsus Liguori does not speak for the Catholic Church, and these are not official church prayers.
Ah yes, John 17, the prayer of Jesus which he prayed on the night before his death is a beautiful prayer! Notice taht He kept praying for oneness. Several times He prayed that "they shall be one". Why do you suppose that is Wildeness? It's because he was praying for Unity in His Church, the Church that He established in Matt 16, the same Church mentioned several times in the Book of Acts known as "the Way", which became known as the univeral church the Holy Catholic Church. The one Church that is still around 2000 years later. Not 34,000 "churches". How can protestantism be His church when it is so splintered, full of squabbling, competing denominations, and disunity? Quit being a Saul, stop persecuting the people of "the Way", ie Catholics! Be obedient to Christ, answer his plea for oneness, come home to His Church, the one true Church!
Tallguy1000 said: "Get with Jesus's program already..."
Here is something that is definitely not a part of Jesus' program in heaven.
"And how can it be that the Son will not graciously hear the mother, when she shows him the breasts from which she has nourished us?" (The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus Liguori).
Wouldn't you agree that this is not a part of Jesus' program in heaven?
Tallguy1000 said: "Get with Jesus's program already..."
The following is definitely NOT a part of Jesus' prayer program:
"Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin...O Mary, Help of Christians...Our Lady of Sheshan, sustain all those in China...Virgin Most Holy, Mother of the Incarnate Word and our Mother...OH Mary, sweet refuge of miserable sinners..."
If you are part of an organization that has such a prayer program, depart quickly, and consider this prayer program:
"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father...O Father...Holy Father...Father...Father...O righteous Father..." (John 17).
Take heed, know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
I just found out that the Catholic church isn't as unified as Catholics like to believe.
Tallguy1000
Re: Salvation
A lost person becomes born again of the Spirit of God when that person hears that he/she (hereafter refered to as he) is a sinner deserving of eternal damnation, that Jesus paid for his sins by dying on the cross for him, that God raised Jesus from the dead showing His power over death, accepts what Jesus did for him, turns to God in prayer confessing to God that he is a sinner, asking God to forgive him of his sins because of what Jesus did for him, asks Jesus to come live in his heart, and be the Lord (boss) of his life.
One of the evidences that a person has truly been born of the Spirit of God is that the believer has a changed life; he is no longer the same person (2 Cor 5:17).
QUESTION: Tallguy1000, have you ever really been born-again by the Spirit of God through conviction in your heart that you were a sinner in need of a savior and that Savior was Jesus Christ?
Or did you become 'saved' when your parent(s) had you baptized as an infant and then later in life you confirmed your 'belief'?
BrotherAaron, prove your statement! Prove that the Holy Catholic Church, the Church that Jesus founded, put to death hundreds of thousands......bhah blah blah...
Again, you wont go there because you can't. IT NEVER HAPPENED...
Tallguy1000
infantile salvation and baptizism
Part 1
Nowhere in scripture will you find a person being baptized that has not first decided to repent and obey God.
An infant or a child who does not know the difference between right and wrong cannot make such a decision. No adult can make that decision for them either. Baptism will not save the infant because it is merely an act of obedience to God after one believes and receives Jesus.
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
It is clear from these verses that to become a child of God one must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. A person does not and can not become a child of God because he was born into a Christian family (born of blood), or that he decided apart from God that it would be a good thing (will of the flesh) or that someone else, like his parents, decided for him (will of man).
Part 2
When the mother/parents brought their children to Jesus all He did was bless the children (Mark 10:16). His teaching was that if we as adults or older children do not humble ourselves as a little child then we cannot be saved.
Little children are trusting and they believe what you say without questioning you. For example, if you have a child on a table and you tell him to jump and you will catch him, then he will believe you and jump because he trusts you. That is how we are to be with what the Lord says. If the Lord says something, we don't question it, we act on it because we believe Him in what He says and we trust Him to keep His Word.
Jesus never implied that a young child could be saved without God moving on him for salvation. If He did, then that would have violated His other teachings.
Scripture indicated that if an infant or a young child who does not know the difference between right and wrong dies then he is protected from God's judgment and they go to Heaven. King David's baby that he had from an adulterous affair that died is an example of an infant that went to Heaven(1 Sam 12:23).
Part 3
But when the child is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong then he is old enough to know that God is real, that he is a sinner in need of a Savior, and that Savior is Jesus Christ. He is old enough to make a decision for Jesus by accepting what Jesus did for him, that Jesus died on the cross to pay for his sins so he could be forgiven and have eternal life.
As with an older child or an adult so is with a younger child who knows the difference between right and wrong, a sinner's salvation experience is not legitamite unless God the Father draws the sinner to Jesus. A person can becomes a child of God when he is drawn to Jesus by the will of God (John 6:44). When God draws a person to Jesus He is going to convict that person's heart that he is a sinner, in need of a Savior, and that Savior is Jesus Christ. If that person chooses to receive Jesus as his savior and calls upon Him with his mouth in prayer for salvation then he will be saved.
Romans 10:9-10,13
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness: and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Once a person believes from his heart and calls on the name of the Lord for salvation then the person is to be baptized. Baptizism is an act that God wants us to do and we do it as an act of obedience. Obeying God in what He wants you to do produces a clear conscious before God. Disobedience does not.
Part 4
In regard to the Philipian jailor and his household being saved (Acts 16:30-34): The entire household was not saved because the father was saved, they were all saved because they all believe the gospel that Paul and Silas preached unto them (Acts 16:32). After they all believed then they were all baptized (Acts 16:33).
Scripture is very plain that each individual must make his/her own decision to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord after the Lord convicts their heart. The teachings of scripture in one area cannot contradict the teaching in another area. So with Lydia's household, they all believed after they heard the gospel much like the Philipian jailor's household did. They didn't all get saved because Lydia got saved.
Baptizing an infant will not impart salvation to that infant. If that child should die before he is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong then he will go to Heaven (1 Sam 12:23).
Infantile baptizism also will not purge or remove original sin from a child's life. We are all born into sin. We all have a sin nature that we must deal with until the day we die. Baptizism does not remove our sin nature from us.
When we become born again by the Spirit of God through the regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5) we are given a new nature created after God's nature in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24). We can decide to live in obedience to our new nature which results in righteousness unto holiness, or we can choose to obey our sin nature which results in death (Romans 6:16,19).
Tallguy1000
Re: Praying to dead saints
The RCC, uses Rev 8:3-4 to justify the practice of praying to dead Saints. The prayers that are offered up to God in these verses are the prayers that the saints prayed while they were here on the earth not while they are in Heaven.
God gives us a work to do while we are here on the earth. Part of that work is to pray for one another. Once He calls us home to Heaven our work has ended. Rev 14:13 tells us that: "...Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."
Praying to dead saints who you think is in Heaven is a direct violationg of what Jesus taught. He taught His disciples to pray to God the Father while He was still on the earth (Luke 11:1-2) and to God the Father in His name after He went back to Heaven (John 14:13, John 16:23).
You cannot find any scripture to support that we are to pray to dead saints. Once believers go to Heaven their work is finished. (Rev 14:13)
God does not hear your prayers if you pray any other way than to God the Father in Jesus' name.
The RCC also justifies praying to dead saints because Jesus talked with Lazarus and Moses and Elijah.
Re:about Jesus calling Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44)
Jesus said John 5:21, "For as the Father raised up the dead, and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will" . "quickeneth" here means "to give life to"
Jesus is our example. He is not showing that we can talk to the dead but that He has power over death.
God the Father answered Jesus' command for Lazarus to come forth because of John 5:21.
Re: About Jesus talking with Elijah and Moses (Matt 17:1-9)
This account was not to show us that we could talk with those who had already gone to Heaven. Jesus was transfigured; His earthly body transformed into His heavenly body. Jesus was seen by Peter, James and John in His glorified body (2 Pet 1:18). He was not asking them to pray for anything. They were discussing the Father's will in regard to Jesus dying for the sins of mankind.
Jesus is our example. He was talking with Elijah and Moses in His glorified (heavenly) body not His earthly body.
You to will be able to talk with Moses, Elijah, Mary, the disciples, etc or your family and friends who preceded you in death to Heaven when you go to Heaven but not here on the earth.
Tallguy1000
Re:purgatory
The teaching of a purgatory in 2 Macabbees runs counter to all the teachings Jesus gave on heaven and hell. If Macabbees was inspired by God then the teaching in it would be consistent with the teachings of Jesus. It obviously is not for Jesus taught that once you die, where ever you end up it is forever. If you die in your sins, you go to hell. You don't go to purgatory to be purged of sins you weren't forgiven for here on the earth. If you die with your sins forgiven, you go to heaven. Heaven is forever. Hell is forever.
The truth is either given in 2 Macabees or it is given by Jesus. If you accept Macabees then you are calling Jesus a liar. If He is a liar then He is not the Christ and you are not saved and are still dead in your sins. There is no reconcilation between Macabees and what Jesus taught.
Amen, Tallguy,
I am so excited to be a part of that Church. Along with countless others from many denominations we make up the Body of Christ. As a son of God, I have access to the very throne of God, and in humbleness and boldness I come before Him and He hears me. Glory to God!
Those who boast in their denomination recieve their reward as such. And those who boast in our God will receive their reward here and in the life to come. For He is faithful to those whom He calls His children.
I don't know what 1 Timothy 3:14 has to do with anything. But when I speak of using the Scriptures to answer a question (instead of an institution) one of the Scriptures I back that is 2 Timothy 2:15. We (as individuals) are admonished to study the Word and learn how to dissect it.
This is laughable.
What part didn't you understand, Tallguy? I could not have been more plain or expressive. Besides, I initiated the challenge, so I think the ball is in your court. You didn't even read any of the posts you are trying to comment on. I didn't make any statements. I posted the questions posed by another Christian to see what responses the RCC members would come up with. Tallguy, you don't make any sense. Tell me where I'm misunderstanding you.
BrotherAaron
Obviously you will not prove your statement because you cannot prove it! It never happened! So, please stop spreading lies.
Prophet
The reason we go to our Church for wisdom is simple. From 1 Timothy 3:14 “the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truthâ€Â.
What church you ask? The body of Christ, the one and only church that was ordained by Jesus Christ Himself when He said “Peter, you are the rock, and upon this rock I will build MY church and Hell will not prevail against itâ€Â. And Prophet, nice try, but you won’t prevail against it either. This Church that Jesus founded is still around 2000 years later.
In Christ...<><..
I've found that Catholics are more easily offended when you challenge their church, than when you challenge the Word of God.
In a majority (meaning almost every one) of theological debates with Catholics I've learned this: There is a big difference between Catholic christians and non-Catholic Christians in where their views come from.
When I've asked a Catholic about Biblical things their response is almost always "Well, my Church believes...." or "My priest says...."
When I am asked, I respond with "The Word of God says...."
Catholics are more concerned with what the Church teaches and less with what the Word of God teaches. They speak of the infallibility of the Pope in interpreting the scriptures, yet not every Pope teaches or believes the same as any other. If the Pope is infallible, then God is schizophrenic.
Ps. Why don't you try and answer a few of the questions for us? These posts were actually a challenge to you Catholics with a twofold purpose: 1) to illuminate the apostasy of the RCC, and 2) to lovingly guide you to the saving GRACE of Jehovah.
Tallguy,
Let me repeat myself: "These last three posts were not my own writing... just to clarify. They come from Pastor David Cloud; Way of Life Ministries." (From my Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:13 pm post.)
Plagiarism is: The act of appropriating the literary composition of another author, or excerpts, ideas, or passages therefrom, and passing the material off as one's own creation.(ucblibraries.colorado.edu/about/glossary.htm)
I'm not sure if you've figured it out by this point, but what I'm trying to show you is that there is a 180 degree difference between my posts and plagiarism! To put it simply, plagiarism is when you take credit for someone's own research and writing. Think on that.
Furthermore, I believe Pastor Cloud is a very well balanced individual with a deep love for God's people as well as sinners. I don't know if you read the whole post or not, so let me quote part of it for you: "If you are Roman Catholic, please understand that we do not hate you. To the contrary,
we love you so much that we preach the truth about Rome so you can see its errors and
turn to the biblical faith in Christ. Our desire and prayer to God is that you might
be saved..."
From my limited experience in life, 'nuts' are rarely coherent. And certainly not godly and loving.
Tallguy, there will be no "...prove your point Aaron" rebuttal in here. The point, my friend, was made here in the summation paragraphs of my previous posts.
So breathe, read it over, think first, and then respond.
Brother Aaron
Aaron, do your own research, plagiarism is a weak way out. Pastor david cloud is a nut. For starters, the Catholic Church had not killed hundreds of thousands of people. That’s insane, it’s an outright lie, and I challenge you to try prove it. You won’t be able to. And don’t recite the Crusades, that was in defense of the continuous attacks from Islam. Prove your point Aaron….
brother Aaron,
It appears that Pator Cloud is a very wise man. Thank you for sharing that bit with us.
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
These last three posts were not my own writing... just to clarify. They come from Pastor David Cloud; Way of Life Ministries.
Praise the Lord! Enjoy!
The final hard nut is a little different, as it does not have to do with
finding Roman Catholicism in the Bible. It is a question that our friend
Brian Snider shared with us:
During the last 1,700 years, the Roman Catholic Church has put to death
hundreds of thousands she believed to be heretics -- Jews, dissident
Catholics, Protestants, anabaptists, Hussites, Lollards, Waldenses, Albigenses
and many others in distant lands who refused to convert to the 'one true church.'
Today, the Roman Catholic Church calls people who hold these very same opinions
'separated brethren' and teaches it is wrong to persecute on the basis of
religious belief. Which church is right? The church which killed those who
dispute her teachings, or the church which treats other Christians -- and
even other religions -- as alternative pathways to heaven?
CONCLUSION
If you are Roman Catholic, please understand that we do not hate you. To the contrary,
we love you so much that we preach the truth about Rome so you can see its errors and
turn to the biblical faith in Christ. Our desire and prayer to God is that you might
be saved. Forgiveness of sins and eternal life is a gift that was purchased by
Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary, and He offers you that gift today. It is not
something you have to try to earn. As a sinner, you cannot ever do enough to earn
God's favor. It is not something that any church can earn for you. It is not something
that can be obtained through a church ritual, such as baptism or confirmation.
Salvation is the free eternal mercy of God through Jesus Christ, and He stands ready
and able to receive every sinner that will come to Him by repentance and faith.
The Bible says you can KNOW you have eternal life right now, today.
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is
in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath
not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the
Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe
on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:112-13).
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the
gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8,9).
"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work" (Romans 11:6).
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye
shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Matthew 11:28-30).
Where in the Bible do we find anyone praying to Mary or to any other person other than God?
Where does the Bible call Mary the Mother of God?
Where does the Bible say that Mary is the Queen of Heaven?
Where in the Bible do we find the teaching that Mary is sinless?
Where in the Bible do we find the baptism of an infant who is too young to believe in Christ?
Where does the Bible teach us that the church can identify dead people as saints and can then pray to them?
Where does the Bible teach that a dead person can intercede for the living?
Where does the Bible teach about purgatory?
Where does the Bible teach that churches should use the bones of dead men in any type of religious manner?
Where does the Bible teach that the churches used indulgences?
Where in the Bible do we find even one example of a Catholic mass being conducted or even described? If Christ established the mass and if it is central to the Christian faith as Rome claims, why is there not one example of it in the book of Acts and the New Testament epistles?
Where in the Bible do we find Christians taking the Lord's supper by partaking of the bread alone without the wine or grape juice?
Where in the Bible does Paul or any of the early church leaders teach that there are seven sacraments?
Where in the Bible do we find the churches practicing the sacrament of confirmation?
Where in the Bible do we find the churches practicing any sort of extreme unction or last rites as a sacrament?
Where in the Bible do we find the prayer of the rosary?
Where in the Bible do we find that New Testament churches are to conduct elaborate rituals and ceremonies after the fashion of Rome?
Where in the Bible do we find that the headquarters for the church is to be in Rome?
Thus it comes about that the Church does not draw her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Hence, both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal feelings of devotion and reverence" (Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, Chap. 2, 9, p. 682).
Words could not be plainer. Rome itself does not make the claim that its teachings are based upon the Bible alone. Yet there are many Catholic apologists who are making such a claim. They are especially active on the Internet, and I hear from them on a regular basis since I have many articles against Romanism at my web site.
Where in the Bible do we find Peter assuming and exercising the role of a Catholic pope?
Where does the Bible say the early churches treated Peter in a papal fashion?
Where does the Bible say that one man is the head of all churches?
Where does Bible say God established a special priesthood for the churches that is separate from the priesthood of the believers?
Where does the Bible describe the office of such priests in the early churches?
Where does the Bible say that New Testament priests are ordained after the order of Melchizedek?
Where in the Bible do we find a requirement that pastors be celibate?
Where does the Bible say the apostles passed on their authority through a succession?
Where does the Bible give standards for apostolic succession? There are standards for pastors and deacons, but where are the standards for an ongoing apostleship?
Where does the Bible describe nuns in the early churches?
Tallguy1000 said: "Get with Jesus's program already..."
In light of that, here is one thing that is NOT a part of Jesus' program for the redeemed: a queen in heaven for them to praise and honor. If your organization has a queen in heaven, flee from them quickly. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Amen Prophet! Praise God! The light shines in the CP tonight...
And yes, I'm alive and well. The Church I'm a part of, aptly named "Jesus" is also very alive and well. People from all denominations are a part of it. They don't boast about their church affiliation. That just turns God off. They boast in His marvelous works in their lives. They boast about His grace. God is blessing us, and using us. Healing our sickness, delivering us from oppression, leading us into truth. He is calling us, and placing us in use wherever He so chooses. Yes, His Church is doing just fine.
Well, I'll compare whoever to whoever I want. Apparently you missed the analogy.
tallguy, having grown-up in a relatively Catholic city, Rochester NY and having lived in Italy for four years I can tell you a majority of Catholics they are Catholic in name only and the same can be said about many in the Baptist faith. We call them C&E Christians they only show up for church on Christmas and Easter and other special occasions. So using that statistic to support your opinion is weak at best.
Please don't compare Nazi Germany with the Holy Catholic Church.
Instead, could it be that the Church that Jesus Christ Himself founded is alive and well, and that's why the numbers are so large? Get with Jesus's program already....
Tallguy,
You said "Do you really think millions of people are that stupid?" I'm sure Nazis in Germany in the 40's said the same thing.
Might don't make right. Truth does.
I just proved my point....
Tallguy1000
The Word of God defines what truth is. If someone, whether it be a Church,a denomination, or an individual says something that does not align itself with the Word of God then I reject it. Call it arrogant if you want but the majority of people who hold to an opinion that conflicts with the Word of God does not control what I accept as truth, God's Word does.
The only reason so many adhere to the teachings of the RCC is because the have blindly accepted it as truth without examining their claims with the Word of God. Many who have have left Catholicism. The remaining ones are for some reason to blind to see the truth about the false teachings and practices of the RCC.
I don't need to get to know any Catholic Priest or Nun to know that the teachings and the practices of the RCC are not scriptural.
I will always earnestly contend for the faith that has been taught to me by God (Jude 3). If my understanding is wrong then God will correct me and I will adjust my belief accordingly. I am teachable,are you? Or is the teachings and practices of the RCC fixed in stone for you?
I don’t understand you Star2. You have a very arrogant attitude! Do you really think the entire world is out of step, or could it be that large numbers speak for themselves? Do you really think millions of people are that stupid? Could it be that millions of practicing Catholics HAVE been guided by the Holy Spirit into the truth? Millions of people Star2 are worshiping with complete honor, reverence, love, and adoration of Jesus. Why do you think you are the only one hearing from God, that’s insane! Honestly my sister, I believe you do have a great relationship with Jesus. It sounds like you’ve suffered a few painful lessons, and I’m sorry to hear that! But guess what, so have I. I stepped out into the evangelical world for a while, but when I looked back at the Catholic Church I realized that everything the evangelicals were teaching me was already in the Catholic Church, but with deeper meaning. Star2, your comments make you sound like you’re still hurting a little. We all are at times. I’ve stayed up too, fasted, prayed and seeked knowledge of God’s will for my life. I wish you would surrender a little to the fact that you don’t have all the answers. From the bottom of my heart, I wish you could partake in the Eucharist with me tomorrow. There is power in the Eucharist! Healing power, comforting power! There have been times when I’ve received communion where I simply can’t quit sobbing tears of Joy in our Lord. Lord, let my heart beat with your heart, abide in me, help me abide in you. Star2, before you continue with your worn out mantra, please sincerely take time to get to know one or two Holy Spirit filled Catholics. Introduce yourself to a nun. Get to know her humbleness and meekness, gentleness, intelligence, joyful spirit, selfless love for Jesus, sincere love for Jesus. Please don’t criticize Catholics anymore until you do. When we look to man for understanding, it is with knowledge that these meek, holy, highly educated (many hold Doctorate Degrees), patient, gentle men have prayed, listened to the Holy Spirit, and interpreted scripture accordingly. Non of this was brought forward individually, but many agreed before it was ever brought forward as Church doctrine. Star2, take the time to watch Benedict Groeschel on Sunday evenings on EWTN. Watch Fr. George Rutler’s show. Then try come back with your criticisms, you won’t be able to…
msnchris70 - I did not flag your Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:36 pm post. If you are the one who is flagging me in retalitation of being flagged then stop. Grow up and accept the fact that their are people who disgree with the teachings of the RCC and many Protestant denominations. Numbers don't make right. Just because a large number of people believe or accept the teachings of the RCC and other Protestant denominations doesn't make the opinions right.
The only opinion that matters and is right and truth is God's opinion! It is His opinion that will judge everyone on judgment day!
You want to know what truth is? Then get with God and let Him teach you and guide you into all truth via the Holy Ghost. Seeking God for understanding of His Word is hard work. It is not easy. It is slow. It takes a lot of time over a period of time, sometimes a long period of time. Sometimes it even involves sacrifice; sacrifice of your time,sleep, and food. God many times uses personal experiences in teaching you scriptural principles. It takes a personal relationship with Him and serving Him as He moves on you to learn from Him.
If you don't want to seek God for understanding of His word then just continue to go the way you are, looking to man for understanding. Let man replace God in your life if that is what you want. That is your right.
Amen brotheraaron to your Tues 6:09pm post and your Mon 8:51pm post.
Jesus isn't God?
Prophet,
"I John 5:7 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.'"
This is a later addition.
I John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
it's not 'blessed', I was using the language of the previous poster who I was responding to. FYI the trinity is found in the bible. Not by name, but by inference.
Brother Aaron, the Trinity is Blessed? Where is Trinity actually found in the Bible?
Amen brotheraaron!
We Catholics are unequally yoked with Fundamentalists, but we love our Protestant and evangelical brothers and sisters.
Within mainline Protestantism and Evangelical circles there are many people who are extremely bright and gifted scholars who have spent their entire lives studying the word of God. These many Protestants are well respected in Catholic eyes because they do their due dilligence on scripture and are highly educated, unlike a fundamentalist who just picks up scripture on the fly and says what they think it means.
The majority of Protestant and Evangelicals I respect and count them as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and they feel the same way about us. Fundamentalists on both the Catholic side and the Protestant side are never the most educated and have never produced an author or scholar of any credible merit. You would think if Fundamentalists were as right on everthing as they think they are, that God would have used them. Fundamentalists are forced to be very loud speakers on a very small platform box because they lack any real credibility.
The thing is... the unity of the Trinity is blessed because each person of the Trinity is holy. God commands us to be holy. So for there to be unity "that reflects the simple unity of the Blessed Trinity", us believers must be equally yoked with those of the darkness. We are not equally yoked with Catholics or Pagans, therefore there can be no unity...
2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Gal 1:8,9 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Standing for the Truth of God's Word requires discernment.
I hate it when Christians here allegdly accuse each other and insult each other all because of His name. I pray and hope that we ALL live in a community of love, one that reflects the simple unity of the Blessed Trinity.
To Prophet and Star2:
Take heart beloved, they've been trying to separate Jesus from His Word for centuries, but they cannot, and will never be able to.
"He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God." Rev. 19:13
I wanted to repost that last message because someone had flagged it. Thanks for your replies, Star. You too, Prophet. I appreciate the prayers. Continue to glorify Him; be steadfast in the truth.
Brother Aaron
brotheraaron
Yes, it is frustrating to talk with some of the people who post on CP. They continually reject God's Word for the unscriptural teachings of man. Why they would want man to replace God in their lives is beyond me.
It is a good thing that we don't debate them in person. They might have us burned at the stakes for taking a stand for the Word of God.
Maybe one day God will reveal truth to them and they will repent and receive the unadulterated Word of God into their lives which is able to save their souls.
Star,
I know how frustrating it can be communicating with some of the people on here. For myself, it becomes very, very challneging to have love for people. I have to pray often while here, because I am so easily drawn into sin. Prais Him for His grace! I have been burdoned to leave the CP for a time... at least until God prepares me to communicate here in a more Christ-like way, and with intentions that are not tarnished by carnal urges. I will pray for you, and several others here, because I watch you speak truth day after day, suffering throwing your pearls before swine. God bless you.
I found the following scriptures for you to keep in mind:
Matthew 7:6 - Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Isaiah 66:3 - He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
Hebrews 2:9 - But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
THERE IS NOTHING THE RCC CAN DO FOR ANY PERSON BUT BRING UPON HIM DEATH. THEY PREACH ANOTHER JESUS AND ADD TO THE WORD OF GOD. BLASPHEMY!!!
tallguy,
You missed the point. Oh well.
First of all, Peter did walk and talk with Jesus. If you believe in the Trinity, you would realize that the same spirit that was in Christ is in me. So I have access to the same knowlege of the scriptures as the Pope, my pastor, Billy Graham, etc. As star pointed out, when Jesus was preparing for his death, resurrection, and ascension, He comforted us in that He would send us the Holy Spirit to guide us.
Yes, Peter allegedly write a letter (not a book). If that is what is required to be "anointed of God" then what happened to all the other apostles that we never heard from, other than mentioning of their name? Were they not truly annointed.
And, as well, there are a lot of obviously misled Christians out there who have written books of false doctrines in the name of God. So as I said, and let me repeat:
Just because someone doesn't write a book, doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. And just because someone DOES write a book, that doesn't mean they DO know what they're talking about. What determines if a person knows, is the testimony of the Holy Spirit in their life.
msnchris
Re:Star2 feels like she is the interpreter for all man-kind,
I have never said that nor have I ever believed that. That is your interpretation to my statement that I look to God for the understanding of scripture.
Do I make mistakes? Do I know everything about a doctrine or a principal in the Word of God? Do I have partial understanding? Yes to all these things.
Does God tell me when I am wrong? Yes He does!
I have never said that I was infallible. I have never come out and said "Thus saith the Lord".
RE:Throw out scripture to make Stars' opinion work,
or throw out no scripture for my opinion to work.
My interpretation of scriptures are more accurate than anything the RCC has ever produced. I don't have to make scripture say what it doesn't say like the RCC clergy does in order to fit their ungodly objectives and practices.
If you want to say I have a massive ego because I take God at His Word then go ahead. I don't care. You only make yourself look foolish.
Tallguy1000
Have you ever read the Word of God? Do you take anything it says seriously?
What of these scriptures do you not understand?
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The Word of God says that we have no need for any extra biblical literature.What about that don't you understand?
John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, which is the HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, is come, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
1 John 2:27 - "But the anointing (Holy Ghost) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and YE NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
Jesus said that that the Holy Ghost will teach you all things and guide you into all truth. What about that do you not understand?
The Apostle John told the Christians in his first epistle that they did not need any one to teach but the Holy Ghost whom they have received shall teach them all things and they are to abide in what He has taught them. What about that do you not understand?
Why do you continue to look to man instead of looking to God?
Hey, you said it Prophet, and you are correct ---- Peter learned from Jesus! However, Peter learned DIRECTLY from Jesus, and we do not have that luxury. What do you mean the same way we do today? Peter worked with Jesus, ate with Him, walked with Him, and prayed with Him, had his feet washed by Him. Peter most likely (though some will debate) wrote a book or two and you’ll find them in your bible just after the book of James. <><….
msnchris,
You said "Have you ever been a Pastor? No.
Have you authored any books on the scriptures? No. Do you have a higher level degree in Scriptures?" And Peter was a lowly fisherman. He didn't go to seminary. He learned from Jesus, the same way we do today, through the Holy Spirit.
Just because someone doesn't write a book, doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. And just because someone DOES write a book, that doesn't mean they DO know what they're talking about. What determines if a person knows, is the testimony of the Holy Spirit in their life. I know a number of people I believe are more spiritual than even my own pastor, and they've never wrote a book, preached a sermon. They simple did what Jesus did. Lived a life worthy of God's gift.
chris,
Study to show yourself approved...rightly dividing the word of truth.
The word "divide" means to dissect. We are to study and dissect the Word of Truth.
Star2,
Remember this...
EGO-EDGING GOD OUT.
If you were so correct with all your interpretations you would think that God would use you much more than he has? You would also think someone who has the gift of infallibility would be a lot more humble.
Pope Benedict exhudes this humility, yet you do not.
Star2,
Do you lead a Church? No. Have you ever been a Pastor? No.
Have you authored any books on the scriptures? No. Do you have a higher level degree in Scriptures? No. Are you a woman? Yes. Do you think your opinion on scripture is better than anyone else'? Yes.
Oh yeah, have you ever defined a doctrine? No.
Are you infallible? "Yes, because the Holy Spirit guides me"......Oh really like so many people on this board?
The biggest difference between me and Star2 is that
while we both believe that God's word is the most important guideline for Christian life, it needs an interpreter.
Star2 feels like she is the interpreter for all man-kind, and I just believe what the Scriptures say about who Jesus put in Charge of interpreting, discipline, legislation and setting doctrine and teaching the faith which were the Apostles. The Apostles gave this power to their successor Bishops.
Logically, for Star2 to be the end all interpreter you will have to throw out a lot of Scripture. For my assertion that the Church founded by Christ through the Apostles who gave their powers to the Bishops should be the interpreters you don't have to throw out any Scripture.
Throw out scripture to make Stars' opinion work, or throw out no scripture for my opinion to work.
"The Church is the foundation and bulwark of Truth" 1Tim 3:15.
The Gospel according to Star2's humble opinion...
God bless you brotheraaron. I have prayed for you.
Thank you for your encouraging words believer.
star2 and brotheraaron, in the words of that great American Benjamin Martin, my prayer for both of you is that you both will stay the course with regards to blogging on this site. We may bump heads on occasion, but I have no doubt you both love the Lord and desire to see His will done. May you both be blessed as you serve Him, believer
msnchris70
Chris70 said :"Here is what STAR2 Wrote just so all of you can see her MASSIVE EGO!
"Those Christians who lived closer to the time of Christ have nothing on me. Jesus Christ manifests His presence in me (John 14:21). He teaches me through the Holy Ghost what I need to know."
The early Christians may have lived closer in time to Jesus Christ but I live even closer than that because Jesus lives inside of me. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He manifests His presence in me in my inner being.
Massive Ego because the Word of God is a living reality in my life?
John 14:21 - "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."
correction
"The Holy Catholic Church has the final say on what Scripture says, not you Star2."
The RCC does have have final say over what Scripture says. God has final say over what His Word says.
should read
"The Holy Catholic Church has the final say on what Scripture says, not you Star2."
The RCC does not have have final say over what Scripture says. God has final say over what His Word says.
msnchris70
I flagged myself.
"Mt 18:17-18 If he refuses to listen even to the Church.....You certainly don't listen to the Church."
This passage is dealing with Believer A who has trespassed against Believer B. If Believer A refuses to hear his fault in his relationship with Believer B after Believer B has confronted him alone and then in the presence of 2 or 3 witnesses, then Believer A's offense is to be presented to the Church. If Believer A still refuse to hear that he has trespassed against Believer B then Believer A is to be treated as a heathen.
What is my trespass? Who have I trespassed against? When was my trespass brought before the Church? What did I not hear?
"Lk 10:16-Whoever hears you, hears me, whoever rejects you rejects me....YOU REJECT this teaching since this authority was passed down to the Bishops and you reject God's authority on Earth which are the Bishops so you REJECT JESUS CHRIST."
I do not have to blindly accept everything a Pastor says. If what he says is of God then I will know it, for it will bear witness with my spirit.
"Jn16:13-The Spirit of Truth will guide you into ALL TRUTH...He was speaking to a select group...not you."
The Apostle John disagrees with you (1 John 2:27)
1 John 2:27 - "But the anointing (Holy Ghost) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and YE NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as the the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
msnchris70
continued
"Mt. 28:18-20 Jesus delegates power to His Apostles"
Jesus said He was the one who had all power in heaven and earth. These verses make no mention of delegaing His power to the Apostles.
"Jn 20:23-Jesus gives power to forgive sins."
What commands Jesus spoke to the disciples when He appeared before them after He rose from the dead applies to all believers.
Jesus said in John 20:23, "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them: and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."
If someone sins against me personally I have the power to forgive them of their sin without them asking me for it or I have the power to hold it against them until they do.
"The Holy Catholic Church has the final say on what Scripture says, not you Star2."
The RCC does have have final say over what Scripture says. God has final say over what His Word says.
"The Holy Catholic Church has received authority by Christ through the Apostles so that when they speak you must be obediant...you are not."
The RCC Institution did not come into existence until around 325 AD. It did not receive its authority from the Apostles.
I am not a memeber of the RCC Institution. It has no authority over me since I am not a member of it.
The only church Institution that has authority over me is the Church I belong to, and that authority is very limited.
"The Bishops have the power of Christ on earth to be a steward of Christ flock."
Yes, on the surface of your statement this is true. The Bishop (Pastor) of the Church I attend is the steward of the body of believers that God has given him.
"All this being said, you can read and interpret the bible all you want but your interpretation may not go against any doctrine of the Church. All our doctrines conform to Scripture either implicitly or explicitly and may never contradict Scripture. The Church has teaching authority from Christ so you must be obediant. "
The doctrines of the RCC do not conform to the Word of God.
I do not look to man for understanding of the Word of God. I look to God. He teaches me doctrine and it is He and He alone that I am required to be obedient to.
Oh I agree with you 100%.
prophet, one area I'm very sensitive to is child evangelism and what the best people I know say and I wholeheartedly agree with is that a child must clearly understand the concept of sin if they are to make a genuine profession of faith in Christ. When a child can articulate that then that child has reached the age of accountability. Once again there is no specific scriptures to support that but when a child understands that their sins seperate them from God that child is ready to accept Christ in my opinion.
LOL. How does a chile come of age? LOL. When it's spicy enough?
I meant "child"
That is true. But even orthodox Jews believe the same way. They have the bar-mitzvah...the age at which a chile becomes accountable...becomes an adult.
prophet, the age of accountability we can only speculate, but I know that God is both a just and loving God and He'll do the right thing is this matter when it comes to children who could not understand they needed to be saved. And I like you am a firm believer in believer's baptism alone.
I guess it all comes down to what the scripture says about baptism. It always coincides with a person's willful and cognizant decision to become a believer.
There is no scripture to back their claim.
But then there's no scripture to back some denomination's claims about the age of accountability either.
prophet, but where do they get the scripture to support that belief? Also, are biggie and biggie2 the same person because I still haven't seen the biggie challenge pop-up yet?
believer
I see your point. But certain denominations believe that baptizing a baby secures its place in heaven. And whether you sprinkle or dunk is not an issue with me. Although I like to stay with scripture and dunk.
prophet, my point was not so much that although I agree with you totally, but the assumption that many denominations baptize and what I've found is that even though they sprinkle or pour water on the baby it's more of an act of dedication of the child to God and encouraging the parents to raise the child in a Christ-like way than it is baptism that makes the baby a Christian, but I also don't see where those denominations that say baptism makes the baby a Christian find the Scripture to support that practice.
believer,
I don't know where they got away from dedications and into baptisms....it has to be some kind of man-made doctrine. Jesus wasn't baptized until He was 30. He was dedicated as a baby. That means that He is not the Son of God, because He didn't follow the tenets set by the Catholic church. Which means that the Catholic Church places itself above God.
Chris:
I tried being gentle, but you responded rudely, both to me and to Star2.
So answer me this: Where in the 1000 pages plus of your dogma does it state that spouting derogatory, uninformed claptrap is OK?
You obviously know much about the RC church, but nearly nothing about any other denomination. Maybe you should follow the advice you gave me; and do some research.
prophet, I already called him on that plus differentiating between infant baptism and child dedication. I'm looking forward to hearing biggie's challenge tonight it should be interesting.
msnchris,
You said "The only denomination who doesn't do infant baptistism are Baptists."
That is incorrect. Please do some research, as there are other denominations that do not do infant baptisms.
chris, you're right that I need to call others on bad calls, I guess I'm a little more sensitive to stereotypes of southerners because my wife is one and she is by no means a dumb hick plus having grown up in both the north and in a big city and raised catholic I can tell you I encounterd as much prejudice and ignorance as I have here in the south. Plus as far as Baptists are concerned we got more flavors than Baskin and Robbins, but at the same time I've also met a number of catholics who depending on what area of the country or if they went to catholic school, or what order of nuns taught them in school, or how active they were in the church, or what their life experiences were all have a different spin on the teachings of the catholic church. One example is an aunt who when she found out I had become a Baptist told me when I died I was going to hell, she had studied to become a nun in the Maryknoll order but never became a nun. Several years later she divorced and now when she has or knows someone in need of serious prayer she either asks me personally or asks my mom to ask me and my wife to pray for this concern. My sense is she has changed her opinion of where I will be spending eternity since it would make no sense to ask someone dsetined to hell to pray for anything or anyone and she is still active in her parish. What I'm saying is there is no doubt you and other catholics who come to this site do you homework, but unfortunately like too many baptists there are many catholics who don't have a clue what catholics truly believe and have their own customized form of catholic teachings and beliefs the same way many baptists have their own customized form of baptist teachings and beliefs. It's not a regional issue it is an accross the board ignorance issue in most if not all denominations and I would include there are a lot of people who have their own customized view of what other denominations believe unfortunately based on urban myths and on the customized beliefs of people they know from other denominations. I'm not going to proof this so I don't run out of time so please excuse my errors.
QueCat,
Fair enough on the Wal-Mar analogy. Size doesn't mean better, and you are right on that point.
No Pope has infallibly said that you are less of a Christian. Read Vatican II. I know that my Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ are Christians just like me and the HS works in their lives. You and I are no more saved than each other, but the fullness of Truth does reside in the one church founded by Christ. I also celebrate many Protestants who love the Lord and seek unity with the Catholic Church.
If what Pope Benedict said about Protestants not being real Churches, that is true but it was only a theological statement. They are churches in the familiar not the formal sense. Protestants have simply not carried the Biblical and historical authority of Bishop, Priest and Deacon and do not celebrate a valid Eucharis because of the lack of Holy Orders, which the Orthodox do have. The Biblical Hiearchy plus the Eucharist equals a valid Church. This is not a slam, but a fact that Protestants have walked away from these understanding to be able to call yourself a church in the Proper sense.
Now, your faith in Christ makes you a Christians. Because you accept the atonement, the trinity, the incarnation, have been baptized, believe you can only be saved by Grace through Faith in Christ then you are a Christian.
Also, our RCC hiearchy doesn't say you will get purgatory or not just because you are not a Catholic. The Pope in Rome is a gentle, kind loving and holy many who is a great example of Christ. Other Protestants would agree with me on this statement about him. We have had 254 really wonderful and Saintly Popes and 11 horrible ones. Let's not overstate that all Popes are bad and egomaniacle.
C'mon we are the mother of all Churches and that is a fact and in the next few years millions of Anglicans and millions of Lutherans and some Presbyterians will be coming back into full communion. Only the most conservative and most biblical are coming our way. Moreover, the Assyrian Church(Nestorian) of the east has all but come home to the Catholic Church now called Chaldean Christians. Many Coptics and Eastern Orthodox have come home too.
I hope if God convicts your conscience to come home you will, but if the Holy Spirit guides your conscience to stay where you are then I hope you will be blessed exactly where you will remain.
I don't have a "problem" with catholics per se. I do take issue with the arrogant RCC adherents (and their leadership) that have the nerve to tell me and anyone else who claims a Protestant based faith tradition, that essentially, because my church fellowship isn't named after some obscure historical saint, we don't observe some archaic liturgy, and we most certainly don't answer to some man living in Italy, that we're not "real" Christians and that we're destined for either damnation or some imaginary purgatory unless we return to the "Mother Church".
The Wal-Mart analogy was a poor choice. Being merely the biggest and cheapest deal in town, doesn't make you the best, the most conscientious, the most beneficial or even the most responsible and actually makes you tend more towards abuse of power and being presumptuous about the continued custom of your clientele.
(and btw I'm not a "denominational" anything - but having "been around" can attest that there are many types of fellowships that do not baptize babies.)
Believer,
Yes, ignorance and predjudice abounds everywhere. Amen. I was only using the South because it is where the majority of Baptists, Fundamentalists call home.
Enough with those stereotypes then. If you don't mind holding my feet to the fire, could you also hold some of your fellow Protestants accountable too. Thanks and Peace to you.
Star2,
C'mon let's call a spade a spade. I have treated you with the same treatment you have given me. Look in the mirror. You have had more than a few fellow Protestants tell you that you were being unkind and uncharitable towards me and other Catholics, so should I assume the Holy Ghost is not working in you? I won't give that kind of prudential judgement on whether or not the Holy Spirit is working in you or not, my ego won't allow me to do so. Your ego is still quite large where you can make such Prudential statements.
I'm glad you have a Masters in Science, Congrats.. Maybe you should stick with Math then?
Let's be honest, Catholics have much more in Common with the majority of Protestants than we do with Baptists or Pentecostals. Some of us tie the Bible with history and some of us like Baptists and Pentecostals believed history started with them. Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians are way closer to Catholicism than Baptist or Pentecostals. Why? Well because they are not opposed to looking at history and context. They find many of our Traditions extremely Biblical. They have a liturgy and accept many of the early church fathers teachings on Scripture.
Don't forget it was Baptists Congregationalists who founded Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses and 7th Day Adventists. While we Catholics have the deepest doctrine of all Christians. You can get a Baptist belief on a one page mission statement. While it is simple, it leaves open wide variety of interpretation and this is why Baptists multiply and divide more than Amoebas. We Catholics have the Catechism of the Catholic Church which has almost 1,000 pages of beliefs that you cannot be in variance with and remain Catholic. Baptists beget fundamentalists and many non-denominationals. We Catholics begat Lutherans and the Anglicans and then everyone else splintered off from there.
Baptist history goes only back 400 years, Pentecostal history goes back to Azusa Street California by a woman and is only 100 years old. Within Baptists there are at least 10 major divisions and with Pentecostalism there are about 6 main branches but it splinters off greatly from there to number. Some Pentecostals are not even Christian because they reject the Trinity.
We don't spend too much time on Pentecostals in general because if you talk to one church you have spoken to one Church. There is no cogent set of beliefs with Pentecostals. By far, the most respectable group of Pentecostals are AOG because they are not afraid to get an education go to seminary and seek Truth while many Pentecostal Churches are so filled with emotion and rah rah speaches it is hard to know if they go there for Jesus or just for their emotional fix.
chris, Baptists are not the only denomination that does not practice infant baptism. If I'm not mistaken the Church of God, Assemblies of God, Christian Missionary Alliance, Disciples of Christ, and Christian Church are ones that come to mind, but my gut hunch is that there are more. Plus we need to also differentiate between those who see it as a child dedication as opposed to making the infant a Christian. And please chris I would personally appreciate it if you would do your best to avoid using stereotypical and deragatory remarks towards people who live in the south. As a person who has lived in a number of northern and southern states as well as several different countries I can tell you that both ignorance and prejudice can be found in abundant supply everywhere, thanks.
Blackshoe89,
Duh! Ofcourse all the healing comes from Jesus Christ. Did you not read what I wrote? Yes, all healing comes from God but unlike you I believe God can use people and objects to heal us. In the end it is the power of God making these people and objects holy, so people can be healed. If a Priest or Pastor prays over someone and they are healed, then it is God working through them. If a woman touches the cloak of God, then her being healed is by God not the cloak but the cloak resonates with goodness. Bones of holy people resonate with the love of God and can heal some people.
Do some research.
Quecat,
The only denomination who doesn't do infant baptistism are Baptists. I realize since I was a reformed minister that infant baptism is practiced in many other Protestant denominations too because of Original sin and that Baptism truly does wash away your sins. Baptists were also more persecuted by fellow Protestants than Catholics by the way.
My Point, which actually agrees with your point is that if you put your trust in anything other than Christ it is wrong. I will disagree with you that Christ can use objects to heal us. Peter healed many and we actually have proof that people who touched certain Saints bones were immediately healed, some people who went to Lourdes and walk in the water are immediately healed. AGAIN, it is not the water per se or the Saints bones it is how Christ made these objects or matter Holy. It is God's power who heals and saves not anything else.
Please make sure you slow down too, and read everthing I wrote and not generalize about Catholic beliefs. We have the largest population on Earth. We have 1.2 Billion members and you have about 30 million worldwide. It is like comparing Wal-Mart to a corner store. Be Specific and only refer to official Church teaching rather than pointing out some lame Catholic you met you has no clue about Christ. I can easilly come up with examples myself in the opposite direction.
Here is one positive about Baptists; they are always standing right next to us Catholics against abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, Embryonic stem cell research, cloning, gay adoption, etc. Morally, I think you guys are pretty solid.
msnchris70 (Chris)
Re:There are just as many ignorant people in the Baptist and Fundamentalist Churches and I only pointed out the obvious with Southerns because it is where fundamentalism, Baptist and low education thrives and it is where the majority of all fundamentalists and Baptist are located.
I am a Pentecostal Evangelical Protestant Christian. However, I was saved and raised in a Southern Baptist Church in the South Forida. I am not of low education. I have a Master of Science Degree in Applied Mathematics from the Fla Institute of Technolgy. I am not ignorant of Scripture.
I agree that there are many believers who are ignortant of Scriptures but they are not confined to only the Baptists. They can be found in all the 'denominations and in the RCC as well."
Why are you only wanting to attack the Southern Baptists? Is it because you have the greatest opposition to your Catholic beliefs from those who either were from that denomination or are still in it?
You personal attacks against those who disagree with you only goes to show that you are not under the control of the Holy Ghost because if you were you would be able to show agape love in defending your faith. It also goes to show that your heart is defective being full of unforgiveness and bitterness.
msnchris:
This twice divorced, Tennessee born, toothless, first cousin marrying Christian wishes to suggest that believing that "The bones of martyrs have cured thousands of people worldwide and are proven as actual miracles" is, to put it as mildly and lovingly as possible, mistaken and un-Scriptural. I request most respectfully that for the sake of the Church you repent of your anger toward your brothers and study the Word where it teaches clearly that healing comes through Christ Jesus, not through any man or the dead bones of any man or animal.
In the matchless name of Jesus I ask you.
Msnchris
Now you're just being stubborn. The uniformed assumptions that you make betray your limited worldview (and the speed with which you reply evidences your bias).
I try making a point about the propensity of folks to grasp at the mystical in the material, while ignoring spirit and truth and you see it as an attack on your denomination.
For the record, the lady in question with the St. Christopher medal? She also has a ring on her finger of an Indian chief in full headdress regalia. She rubs it "for luck" and claims that an old Indian woman on the side of the road, in Arizona, gave it to her decades ago. This sad little ring has been buffed to a brilliant shine, although most of the chief's facial features have been rubbed off through years of her compulsiveness.
Her wearing a St. Christopher medal doesn't make her any more a catholic, than her wearing this Indian ring means that she's an adherent of Native American earth religions.
In all my conversations with her, any references that she made regarding once upon a time having gone to a church, the comments referred to "the pastor", "his wife", etc.
Last I checked, "priests" don't marry.
I know what the source of your confusion may be. Since catholics practice infant baptism, you assumed that since the lady referred to being "baptized as a babe" that she must have been baptized in a Catholic church and that somehow mystically makes her a catholic for life regardless of what she professes.
FYI - other congregations also misguidedly practice infant baptism, not just the RCC.
If you'd slow down, take a few deep breaths, discard your preconceived notions and think about what you say and the ramifications of saying it, you'd find that conversations can be much more amiable.
Yes, God gives gifts and God takes them away because mankind is so stubborn and foolish.
It's little wonder that the Ark of the Covenant was lost in antiquity. If it were still available for public viewing, no doubt there'd be lines of folks wrapping around the block waiting to prostrate themselves before it seeking some favor from God as if the better the venerated relic, the better the chance of a heavenly slot machine paying out a coveted prize.
Quecat,
You have consistently lumped us Catholics all together, so without mentioning the word Catholic you described two people who are obviously Catholic. The woman was a Catholic because no other group has saints medal of St. Christopher. Period.
The American Medical Association still uses the Serpent wrapped around a staff as their official Trademark. The Serpent was known for healing. Yes, people did worship it later and that was sad. Here God gives them a gift and they misuse it. Just like when God gave his Church the New Testament and over a thousand years later Protestants misuse it and divide Christianity into 50,000 different sects.
My point is that the majority of Catholics are not superstitious, do not worship statues or think they bring you luck and probably have never seen a relic. These Catholics love Jesus Christ and realize that their faith in Him by Grace saves them.
There are just as many ignorant people in the Baptist and Fundamentalist Churches and I only pointed out the obvious with Southerns because it is where fundamentalism, Baptist and low education thrives and it is where the majority of all fundamentalists and Baptist are located. I can't make a comment about Baptists or Fundamentalists or non-denominations in Canada, South America, Africa, Central America, Europe because your numbers there are inconsequential.
Let's agree on something. That anything that creates worship of anything but God ,is wrong and should be rejected. If you worship a statue that is wrong, if you think a medal or statue is for good luck then you are sadly mistaken. Some relics have been proven to create cures. The bones of martyrs have cured thousands of people worldwide and are proven as actual miracles by medical doctors not like a Benny Hinn type of farce. The positive side is that the majority of people who have been healed give credit to God for allowing the cure to work through this Saint. Some in the minority actually think it was the power of the bones, which is wrong. God is the one who does all things for good for them that love the Lord and are called to His service. Rom 8:28
msnchris
You sure do stick your foot in your mouth when you get yourself all worked up!
You're railing on about supposed catholic bashing and use a tired old caricature of "southerners" to attempt to make some sort of comparison?
I'm sure our brothers and sisters living in TN, AL, KY, WV, etc appreciate your candor.
Now before you continue to rant on about my "potshots" let's clarify a couple of things.
The lady with the St. Christopher medal? She's NOT Catholic, never was and most certainly is not now. Where did she get the thing and form her beliefs about it? I don't know.
What I do know is that the existence of the medal and the commonly held beliefs for why one would wear such an item of jewelry plays right into the superstitious beliefs of this woman and leads her astray from a true Godly relationship.
The first thing that comes to my mind is Romans 14:13-23 where we are admonished to refrain from, by our actions, placing a stumbling block to the faith of weaker brothers.
If the purpose of my jewelry is going to be misconstrued by those less faith-filled, then it is better for me to refrain from wearing it.
Now for the other neighbors I mentioned. Yes, they evidently attend a catholic church, but it is equally evident that their church has done a very poor job of teaching them the genuine basis of faith.
Where, if not primarily the church, can one be "strengthened as a disciple and encouraged to remain true to the faith" as spoken of in Acts 14?
What I wish to point out by my post is not catholic bashing, but rather - that unnecessarily embracing the use of material items as some sort of "reminder" of the glory of God and His saints, leads some astray.
Considering Jesus' warning about "offending little ones" - it would be prudent if we disposed with this detrimental tradition.
Christ instituted the Lord's Supper as a reminder of His sacrifice.
He did NOT instruct us to make statues of what we suppose Him to have looked like, to remind us of His existence and glory.
Nehushtan
Meaning: of copper; a brazen thing
a name of contempt given to the serpent Moses had made in the wilderness (Num. 21:8), and which Hezekiah destroyed because the children of Israel began to regard it as an idol and "burn incense to it"
The lapse of hundreds of years had invested the "brazen serpent" with a mysterious sanctity; and in order to deliver the people from their infatuation, and impress them with the idea of its worthlessness, Hezekiah called it, in contempt, "Nehushtan," a brazen thing, a mere piece of brass (2 Kings 18:4).
Break down your "Nehushtans" that your brother be not stumbled.
10. The RCC teaches: At each Mass the priest re-presents to the Father the sacrifice of Christ. [1354, 1357]
The Bible teaches: Christ presented the sacrifice of Himself to the Father “once at the consummation of the ages” (Hebrews 9:24-28.)
11. The RCC teaches: The Mass is an unbloody sacrifice which atones for the sins of the living and the dead. [1367, 1371, 1414]
The Bible teaches: Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins (Leviticus 17:11; Hebrews 9:22.)
12. The RCC teaches: Each sacrifice of the Mass appeases God's wrath against sin. [1371, 1414]
The Bible teaches: The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin (Hebrews 10:12-18.)
13. The RCC teaches: The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the sacrifice of the Mass. [1366, 1407]
The Bible teaches: Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14.)
14. The RCC teaches: The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the sacrifice of the Mass. [1364, 1405, 1846]
The Bible teaches: The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 1:3.)
15. The RCC teaches: The RCC is to continue the sacrifice of Christ for the salvation of the world. [1323, 1382, 1405, 1407]
The Bible teaches: The church is to proclaim the Lord’s death for the salvation of the world (1 Corinthians 11:26.)
Job 28:28 – “And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.”
Psalm 2:1 – “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?”
Matthew 6:7 – “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”
The numbers in square brackets reference the paragraph from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
1. The RCC teaches: The last supper was a real sacrifice in which Christ's blood was poured out for our sins in the cup. [610-611, 621, 1339]
The Bible teaches: The Last Supper was a Passover meal. Christ's blood was poured out for our sins on the cross (1 Peter 2:24.)
2. The RCC teaches: The bread and wine become the real body and blood of Christ. [1373-1377]
The Bible teaches: The bread and wine are symbols of the body and blood of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:23-25.)
3. The RCC teaches: Christ's body and blood exist wholly and entirely in every fragment of consecrated bread and wine in every RCC around the world. [1374, 1377]
The Bible teaches: Christ is bodily present in heaven (Hebrews 10:12, 13.)
4. The RCC teaches: The consecrated bread and wine are heavenly food, which help one to attain to eternal life. 91392, 1405, 1419]
The Bible teaches: The bread and wine are symbols which help one to remember Christ (Luke 22:19.)
5. The RCC teaches: God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381]
The Bible teaches: God forbids the worship of any object, even those intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4, 5; Isaiah 42:8.)
6. The RCC teaches: Christ has ordained men to a ministerial priesthood to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross. [1142, 1547, 1577]
The Bible teaches: Christ has ordained every believer to a holy and royal priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices, the praise of their lips, and lives yielded to God (1 Peter 2:5-10; Hebrews 13:15; Romans 12:1.)
7. The RCC teaches: The Sacrifice of the Mass is the sacrifice of the cross. Only the manner in which it is offered is different. [1085, 1365-1367]]
The Bible teaches: The sacrifice of the cross was a historical event. It occurred once, approximately 2000 years ago, outside Jerusalem (Mark 15:21-41.)
8. The RCC teaches: The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1323, 1382]
The Bible teaches: The sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30.)
9. The RCC teaches: The Mass makes Christ present in His death and victimhood. [1353, 1362, 1364, 1367, 1409]
The Bible teaches: Christ should not be presented in His death and victimhood, for He has risen and is “alive forevermore” (Revelation 1:17, 18; Romans 6:9, 10.)
chris,
i wouldn't call them potshots. i would call it a barrage, since there are many errant teachings promoted by the RCC.
Quecat,
You are always taking pot shots at Catholics. You are pretty sad. Let's be specific so you can get a clue.
The woman who says she was baptized and clings to the St. Christopher medal and bears no fruit may not inherit the Kingdom of God. Just because you are a good person, and have a saint medal or are baptized means little if you don't have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. She is an ignorant person and there are many out there. The people who have the Our Lady of Guadalupe statue in their front yard have an improper understanding of Statues and their purpose. Those icons or statues do nothing and they do not bring you luck! They only remind us of Christians who put their faith in Christ. These people too are ignorant Christians who may not be saved without a true saving relationship with Christ.
What irritates me most about you is that you lump all of us Catholics together. The majority of Catholics do understand their faith and have a personal relationship with Christ. They don't use statues or relics or holy medals like it was some sort of magic. This is idolotry and must be rejected and the Catechism of the Catholic Church rejects it.
Try going to the South of the US if you want to see some equally ignorant baptist, pentecostals and non-denominationals who marry their first cousins, play with snakes, are on their 3 marriage and have an IQ of 40 and think it is the Bible that saves them or praying in tongues that saves them, not Jesus. There are ignorant people in every church.
By the way, a graven image is one that is of death like the devil or any other image that evokes worship away from God. Right after God forbid Graven images Moses was commanded to create the ark with graven images of angels and serpents, so your interpretation is not correct. If your interpretation is correct then you better throw away your pictures of your family off your wall and any picture of Jesus then. Icons and statues are not graven images and only remind us of people who lived heroic Saintly lives. These statues and icons should only help you remember that real people lived extremely Saintly lives because of their faith in Christ.
You may not worship anything but the Triune God.
quecat, it's unfortunate that this is a problem among many who profess to be Christians, my guess is that it's a result of biblical illiteracy, I constantly get e-mails that say if I pass this on to a certain number of people I'll get all kinds of blessings and if I don't I might reap some negative consequences, the sad thing is I sometimes get these from Christians who should know better. That is why it's imperative that churches do a better job at not only reaching the lost, but both educating and equipping the saints through strong Bible-based discipleship ministries to be more discerning to what is of God and what isn't.
It's been my experience that icons, relics and "blessed" anything caters to the least faith-filled the superstitious and the carnal among us.
My "christian-born" but completely worldly non-church-going elderly next door neighbor clings pitifully to a St. Christopher medal around her neck and proudly crows that it keeps her safe.
When I attempt to share the gospel with her, I get the standard answer: "You don't need to tell me all that, honey. I was baptized as a baby and I love Jesus and yes I'm going to heaven, because I think I'm a good enough person" although her life shows no evidence of a relationship with the Lord.
Meanwhile the folks down the street have a Virgin of Guadalupe statue in front of their house that they believe brings "blessings" upon their home and it's occupants. (and let's not forget the window sized sticker of the virgin plastered on the back of their SUV for the same reason.) Strangely enough they'll also frequent the palm reader/curandara on the corner to gain insight for living from their dead relatives. I'll leave it to you to deduce which house of worship they attend.
Little wonder that the second of the Ten Commandments spoke of "graven images".
It is plain that man's paltry depictions of even portions of God's glory not only diminish the true awesomeness and indescribability of our God, but also lead us to less reverence and considering God a "common thing" and a good-luck charm.
For those of you who might be curious to see these supposed "footprints" ...
http://www.egyptvoyager.com/features_holyfamily_route_pg1.htm
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/jerusalem-chapel-of-ascension.htm
I think these images speak for themselves.
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hyperion,
I see that the sarcasm of my post was wasted on you.
well, I find this article offensive. a footprint of Jesus? c'mon! get real. all it's for is a cheesy tourist trap to make money on. didn't Jesus drive the money changers out of the temple for something similar?
jester, as much as I appreciate your humor, the georgia church one was just a bit much, so that's why I flagged it, if I'm oversensitive I apologize but I did find it personally offensive to me and I hope you can respect that and please keep up the levity, be blessed as you serve Him, believer
HOW could anyone acquire components of Jesus' material body?
a lock of hair, a toenail clipping?
utterly ridiculous i say,
if those things really existed, scientists would have tried to clone Him.
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
I have nothing to add to that quote. May the peace of Christ be with you, Brothers and Sisters.
I agree with you Believer. I think there are some gaudy things in the Holy Land. When I went to Bethlehem I was inspired, when I went to the Holy Sepulchre I was in awe of the whole thing.
I think the pro's outweigh the con's. I think that was kind of funny too about the actual cross of Jesus. My point, which I hope you can appreciate it, is that these sights do help people. I don't know of anyone who worships an object. I do know of people who like to touch these Holy objects when they pray to God.
I don't think we should generalize that people worship objects. I don't know of anyone who does that, but I do know of people who hold these objects in high regard and venerate them which is not the same as worship from what i've learned in seminary.
Moreover, they do have some of the earliest manuscripts of the old testament and they do charge money to see it. It is called the dead sea scrolls. Seeing the dead sea scrolls does nothing but encourages your faith. For those who didn't have faith in the first place, they may finally come to Christ after seeing it.
I think if it takes seeing the burning bush, or walking in the same river Jordan or going to the Church of the Nativity to create a new relationship with Christ or just stregthen your current one that is wonderful.
IHS, my wife and I had the opportunity to visit the Holy Land and some of the sights you talk about were nothing but religious tourist traps. At the Jordan River you could buy water from the Jordan as well as dirt from Mt. Calvary and at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre I was given pieces of wood from the Cross of Christ after I gave one of the priests a dollar to basically leave me alone. Two people asked me what I thought about the dirt and the wood, I told them if Christ's cross were as large as the Empire State Building then there was a slim possibility that the wood was authentic or if there was a hole in or near the City of Jerusalem the size of the Grand Canyon then there was a slim possibility the dirt was authentic. I personally think that is why we will never find any of the original manuscripts from the Bible because God knows that if we do we'll build a building to put them in and start charging money to people so they can come to see them and worship them.
From what I've studied at Seminary, the veneration of icons, bones and clothes of people who showed outstanding Christ like valor were honored by all Christians in the beginning. Moreover, if you have ever been to Israel all the places where Jesus lived, preached and died and rose from the dead were venerated by the early christians and gave Christians from a later time more hope that Christ did really live like a man and that he was God.
Please don't underestimate the need for the human psyche to need tangible objects to encourage and strengthen our faith. Millions of Christians go to the Holy Land for exactly that purpose to strengthen their faith. Trying to Belittle how Christians from many different groups honor our risen Lord is beneath you.
I'm sorry QUECAT, but if you walked in the exact footprints of Christ or held a peice of Christ clothing in your hand you would have chills up and down your body and your faith would be strengthened. Maybe your faith is so strong that you never need a boost. Congratulations. Some of us are not that strong and need things like this to help us.
It is not superstition either. None of you have obviously been to Egypt or the Holy Land. The main reason why I am going to become a Pastor is because of my trip to Bethlehem and places where Christ lived and preached. It changed my heart and totally won me over to Christ. I thank God for all these wonderful Christian sites that we still have them today to inspire all of us.
Quecat,
Well said; totally unbelievable, is it not?
quecat, don't you mean "tomfootery", be blessed as you serve Him, believer
Tex, Herod was alive and well when Jesus and his parents fled to Egypt, it was after Herod died that they returned to Nazareth, plus another Herod came after this Herod who was still king when Jesus was condemned to the cross.
superstitious tomfoolery!
I suppose the "faithful" make pilgramage to come and "venerate" a footprint.
It's entirely mind-blowing that Christians who should know that we worship in Spirit and in Truth and that we aren't to be carnally minded - get so fixated on worldly, material icons, relics, etc - and what's more, taken in by such silly fakery.
From what I understand, King Herod died about 30 years before this supposedly occurred. Anyone care to help me out with verification?