A retired Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) minister challenged her denomination's position on same-sex marriage Friday by officiating the wedding of two women who wanted to be among the first couples to legally marry in California.
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(Photo: AP Images / Eric Risberg)The Reverend Dr. Jane Spahr, center, a Presbyterian minister, performs a same-sex marriage for Sherrie Holmes, left, and Sara Taylor, right, at the Marin Civic Center in San Rafael, Calif., Friday, June 20, 2008. In a direct challenge to church doctrine, Spahr, a retired minister who avoided a sanction this year after she officiated at the weddings of two lesbian couples married another couple now that same-sex marriage is legal in California. The action by Spahr comes as the legislative body of the Presbyterian Church (USA) convenes its biannual meeting in Northern California, where it will consider the denomination's stand on same-sex marriage and the ordination of gay clergy.
The Rev. Jane Spahr, recently acquitted by a church council of officiating same-sex ceremonies before California made gay marriage legal, presided over the wedding between Sara Taylor, 54, and Sherrie Holmes, 57, at the Marin County Civic Center.
"I pronounced them married under the authority granted me by the state and as a minister of the Presbyterian Church," Spahr said after the service, attended by Holmes' 30-year-old daughter and longtime friends of the couple, who have been together 18 years this week.
The brides and their pastor said they hoped the wedding would send a message to church leaders gathering in San Jose for a weeklong legislative meeting where changes to the denomination's positions on marriage and the ordination of gay clergy are scheduled to be discussed.
"I'm so disappointed the church doesn't lead on this," Taylor said.
The constitution of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) defines marriage as a covenant between a man and a woman. The denomination's top court ruled in 2000 that ministers can bless same-sex unions as long as the ceremonies are not called a marriage and don't mimic traditional weddings.
Spahr, a lesbian who used to lead a ministry for gay Presbyterians, has challenged the church's position on same-sex marriage before. Two years ago, the San Rafael minister was charged with misconduct for performing marriage ceremonies for two lesbian couples in 2004 and 2005.
The church's Supreme Judicial Council overruled a regional church court and acquitted her in late April, concluding that Spahr did not violate denominational law because the ceremonies she performed were not real marriages.
Now that gay and lesbian couples can get married in California, a similarly technical ruling won't be possible, said Spahr, who is scheduled to officiate more same-sex weddings this summer.
Taylor, a lawyer who represented Spahr on the misconduct charges, said she decided to get married at the government building that houses the county courthouse instead of at a local Presbyterian church to honor the California Supreme Court for its decision last month to strike down the state's gay marriage ban. The first same-sex marriages in the state took place Monday afternoon.
"We want to recognize the court's wisdom and complete understanding of why these relationships have to be recognized: Our constitution requires it," she said.
Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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Amen, song!
There is no such thing as a Christian church that allows homosexual marraiges.
Yeah, not only did she challenge her church's stand on same-sex marriages, she challenged God. That is something I would not dare to do.
Back to this article - - Even though I support gay marriage, if the Presbyterian church does not allow gay marriage then this minister should not have quoted that she was conducting the marriage as an official of the Presbyterian church.
If she really wanted to conduct a same-sex marriage, perhaps she should re-think her religious affiliation. After all, there are plenty of Christian churches that allow same-sex marriage.
I've posted this elsewhere, but I think it applies here.
What did Christ say about immoral sex?
Christ spoke out against sexual immorality. But to what was He referring?
Matthew 15:18-20
18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "
Mark 7:20-23
20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
Now, sexual immorality would refer to what God had defined as wrong already by the time of when Christ said this - this would come from the Old Testament, which we have looked at earlier. As Christians today, we use both the Old and New Testaments to see Who God is, what God has done, how God feels about issues in life, and what He expects of and for us.
The word translated as sexual immorality is Porneia. This word means
1. illicit sexual intercourse
A. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
B. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
C. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11
In particular, when looking at what God said about sexual immorality, we are taking into account the following (I have added the verses from the Gospels, as well as those from the New Testament Epistles, the latter of course were written after Christ spoke, but are helpful for Christians today):
Sexual immorality in general: Matthew 15:18-20; Mark 7:20-23; 1 Thes 4:3-8; Rev 21:5-8
Wearing clothing of the opposite gender: Deuteronomy 22:5
sex with animals: Ex 22:19; Lev18:23, 20:15-16
sex with people of the same gender: Lev 18:22; Lev 20:13; Rom 1:26-27; 1 Cor 6:9-10
adultery: Gen 20:1-7; Deut 5:18; Heb 13:4
fornication: 1 Corinthians 6:18; 1 Corinthians 7:2
incest: Lev 18:6-15; 20; Deut 27:20-23; 1 Cor 5:1-13.
To read my entire explanation on this, go to
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/what-did-christ-say-about-immoral-sex-2/
what is it of romans and galatians that i am not making clear.
the law......Jesus, in the very next sentence said this: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
the law that jesus spoke about can be summed up in the the commandment "love your neighbor as yourself"
this law that jesus spoke of.................the fulfillment of it is love.
therefore if you follow the three commandments of love you are doing more than following the law.......you are fulfilling it.
To Feetxxxl:
Dear one, who has been teaching you? What are your ears hearing, what are your eyes seeing? For what you speak is not truth, but opinion.
Jesus himself said: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." Matt 5:17
You have presumed as they did that Jesus came to abolish which was deemed improper. He did not. What was improper in the Prophets time is still improper now.
Jesus, in the very next sentence said this: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
Beloved, please look deeper. Jesus fulfilled the law that God gave. These two are one in the same and would not negate each other. What God finds offensive, Jesus finds offensive. Jesus Himself said "I and the Father are one".
Dear one, please open your ears to something other than "Did God really say?". This is an old lie from the antiquity you deny, yet is still as deadly as it was then.
I would just like to echo FullGospels comment. This, along a myriad of other things, must be truly embarrassing for our Presbyterian brothers and sisters. They truly need our prayers.
Matthew 7: 28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Luke 9:1
[ Jesus Sends Out the Twelve ] When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases
John 10:17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my lifeâ€â€only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father
Ephesians 119and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, :which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet
Colossians 2: 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
john14: 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work
john 15: 1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
AND
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
1 John 4:8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[a] into the world that we might live through him.
feetxxxl could you write out your last post again , use Scripture to support it, ty. Then i can understand what your saying.
Jesus is Lord
feet,
People who try to lead believers astray into acting the way they want, or the way the world says is good are what the apostle John warned against in 1 John 3:4-10
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
feet, argue with scripture all you want. I'm not arguing culture, I'm simply pointing out scripture.
Boo, as a Presbyterian I am offended by the sodomy of marrage.
feetlxxx--
Why do you persist? You have been thoroughly and utterly rebuked and put to shame in the presence of every single believer who adheres to the word of God on this message board. You can holler all the day long, but nothing you say is going to change God's word. It's that simple. Stop trying to rationalize your aberrant desires. Homosexual relationships are not recognized by God, as you have been told, and we have given you a laundry list of reasons why and people have given you the direct statements from scripture condemning the behavior.
Two men engaging in anal sodomy are not "married" as they cannot produce children. The central tenet of the institution of marriage is the "creative" act - to create life, have children, raise a family. This is sacred to God. When two men engage in sodomy they are perverting the sexual act and it's original intent, this is from the evil one, and this is why God called it abomination. It is also why Paul condemns it. (Paul calls them "natural" and "unnatural" relations, as in, "of God" and "not of God").
Stop trying to compare sodomy to slavery, women's rights, etc. Everything you claim was a societal evil that was justified through the Bible, was also condemned through the Bible. Those using the Bible to try to find support for those evils, were rightly rebuked. Homosexuality is in a completely different category and there is no scripture supportive of it.
rolln4him--
Thank you. You are right, too, we are all called to approach unbelievers differently, I believe. I come off a little harsh and strident at times, but this is part my personality and part my righteous indignation when the misguided or deceivers attempt to distort scripture for their own twisted ends - to satisfy their own perverse lusts or desires and believe them to be other than what they are - aberration and abomination.
I have no problem at all with welcoming into the church any person who is struggling with homosexual desires or impulses and who is truly trying to find help in overcoming these desires. But what I won't stand for is being silent, or playing meek and mild, when these people "stand up in the synagogue" so to speak, and begin preaching to me, and others, that what God said, he didn't really say, or that what God condemns, he didn't really condemn. I know my scripture well enough, at least, not to put up with such nonsense. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil over good is for good men to do nothing.
denying equal rights for both men and women goes back 4000 plus years......................why is it so hard to comprehend that antiquity means nothing?
god has put christ is authority over all things.
surely having done so, god does not turn around and work apart from christ. because of god's own words in delegating authority to christ, now in the time of the new covenant, whatever god does he will do thru his son.
and his son said we will recognize them from their fruit. from the fruit of homosexual bonding.............the fruit of love, goodness, gentleness, self control, faithfulness, kindness,joy, peace, and patience. from the fruit of having a homosexual identity.
i have heard no testament that there is more fruit of the spirit in hetersexual bonding and identity than in heterosexual bonding and identity.
sin is a sin???? ..................no.............. that is the old covenant relationship to the written code. under the new all judgement of sin requires in, addition a spirit witness,(romans: we are led and serve of the spirit) if our judgement is without this witness, then how are we being led by the spirit.
for those who lament that there is no regulation affirming same sex bonding, my response is either become more familiar with romans, hebrews, ijohn and the gospels or show me where in scripture under the new covenant we are to be led by regulation or regulation apart from spirit?
believer -
Thanks to warriors like you, I'm encouraged. We're all members of the Body of Christ and are called to approach those that are unbelievers differently. Jesus offended many and did it without flinching. We live in a culture of never offending and if you do - shame on you. This has led to a paralysis of the church as a whole. Narrow is the way a it will be few that find it; broad is the way and many will go down this path sadly to say. I've always have enjoyed your posts. Keep it up!
rollin4him, I agree with you, but to be honest I had not felt led by God to move in that direction, but if God has led you in that direction I would certainly encourage you to be obedient to His leading.
What I still find interesting is that those who favor same sex marriages still have not cited any scripture other than trying to turn the agape relationship of Jonathan and David into a eros relationship to support their views. Needless to say they won't because they're not there. Be blessed as you serve Him, believer
Romans 1:24-32
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Note that God called sex with people of the same gender sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, indecent, and perversion, and something that ought not to be done.
Well said John14-6
cindy444--
Paul clearly condemns homosexual behavior in three places that I can come up with off the top of my head: Romans, 1 Corinthians, and 1 Timothy. As I stated to feetlxxx, no scholar either conservative or liberal, who has any respected standing in academic circles, denies that by the Koine Greek word that Paul used, he meant "homosexual acts" or "homosexual behavior". It is only the lunatic-fringe left, the ones behind "Soulforce" and all that rubbish, that actually try to twist the underlying Greek text through tortured hermeneutics and even more tortured Koine vocabulary. It would be worth a belly laugh if it wasn't about something so serious and tragic within the church. This is nothing more than the same deceitful tactic the devil used in the Garden, "Did God really say?..."..."Did God really mean?..." It is frightening how ready to be deceived, even the elect can be. But Paul said it first.
Next, homosexuality as a practice was a social-cultural taboo among the Semitic peoples going back thousands of years. One need only seek out a second year Near East archeology or anthropology student, one who knows anything at all about ancient Judaism, to know that. If you aren't wise enough or motivated enough to seek out the answer for yourself, to discover this, then I can't help you. Homosexual acts/behavior were *always* taboo, and condemned by ancient Hebrew society. It is written in the Mosaic Law. Jesus did not come to "overthrow" the Law but to "fulfill" it. This means he didn't come to change it or overturn it, but to complete it. Big difference.
You are deceived if you think homosexual behavior is not condemned outright, in the Bible, and even more deceived if you think it is ever acceptable to God. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for just such immoral behavior. He spelled it out in the Law (Leviticus) and Paul condemns the same behavior in (at least) three separate places within the New Testament. End of story.
feetlxxx--
Homosexual *behavior* (meaning acting upon it) is clearly labeled "sin" in Romans 1, 1 Corinthians, and 1 Timothy, in addition to the Old Testament declaration of homosexual behavior as an "abomination".
Stop trying to twist and distort scripture to your own perverse ends. You know what the scriptures say about homosexuality. Even liberal scholars agree that the Bible condemns homosexual behavior whether or not they agree with it - it is only a tiny, lunatic fringe of the far left within the church that attempts to deny it and say the scriptures "don't really condemn homosexuality". Jesus didn't condemn pedophilia, necrophilia, or bestiality either - do you think that means he thought they were okay? He didn't have to condemn it, it was a given that it was against Jewish Law and it was a cultural and social taboo among the Semitic people going back to the beginning.
You have itching ears and you refuse to hear sound doctrine. Paul told the church in Corinth to expel the immoral brother who married his stepmother and turn him over to Satan (to lead him back to repentance). Stop denying that what the Bible says is sin, is not sin.
The Prophet Isaiah said, "Woe to those that call evil good and good evil". You are doing *just that*, you are calling something that is a grave sin "good", and you are trying to justify it through your own prideful, self-centered desire. You should repent and turn back to the scriptures and seek God's forgiveness. You are attempting to lead others here astray and you are preaching a false doctrine.
what you are suggessting i accept is in your mind, in the your cultural, is of your opinion, and is in your belief system. but none of it is in scripture.
the proof of that is that no one has been able to explain how the words of scripture say homosexuality is a sin.
cindy 444 thank you for your translation understandings.
feet, you're blinded to the truth. If you wanted the truth, you would accept what Scripture has to say on the matter of homosexual sex being a sin. However, you have a vested interest in justifying your chosen sin to yourself and others. Therefore, you choose to not accept what Scripture says.
that's ok. thanks for playing. better luck next time.
cindy444 and believer -
Cindy444, if you truly believe than repent from your lies.
Believer - after having a rereading of cindy's posts, I've a sense that she is well versed in her argument and has a less than innocent understanding of this issue. She may be more than just a heretic, she may actually be a wolf in sheep's clothing. (Matt. 7:15)
believer -
I respect your tender handling of cindy444 to some degree, but there are times where a good rebuke is needed. Her kind of teaching had been pervading the churches and has done incalculable damage. We're forgetting that we are to rid these type of people from the church if they don't repent from their heresy. 1 Cor. 5:6; Gal. 5:9
cindy444 -
I believe you're a deceived sister in Christ and the very fact that you are making the word of God a mockery makes me livid. Your type of "Christianity" is hurting the Church because the gay agenda has had success in deceiving the babes in Christ. Sorry to say, but you're biting hard on their "did God really say..." line. Plain and simple sister, I rebuke you in the name of Christ.
cindy444, I agree wholeheartedly there are some very mean spirited people on both sides of this crucial debate. But once again I know with all my heart that God's love and forgiveness extends to any sinner who is willing to repent of their sins and/or sinful lifestyle and turn to Him through the person and finished work of His Son, Jesus Christ. My prayer is tha we in the Christian community will live our lives in such a way that people see that same Jesus in us and myself specifically.
>I hope you're a better cook than a theologian.
And I hope you are a better Christian than your arrogant, condescending words show you to be here.
cindy444 -
I hope you're a better cook than a theologian. Perhaps if we put this in a better historical perspective. Homosexuality (oops, I mean the vernacular) as sin wasn't even a debatable issue 30 years ago. Every legitimate Biblical scholar knew what homosexuality was SIN. Period! It wasn't until just in recent times has society in has been confused by the issue. Ummm, do you think there's a correlation as recent studies show that Biblical knowledge and church attendance has plunged among Americans. I'm starting to understand how truthful the Bible is now more than ever - as in "even the elect will be deceived".
I have to go make dinner. Thanks for the conversation.
God bless.
>cindy444, is it hate for the homosexuals or hate for the sin of homosexuality, specifically the sexual practices of homosexuality, you're seeing expressed because there is a huge difference.
While I think there are some who have done a good job of keeping that separation clear, I don't believe we can deny that others have not. When I see a sign that reads "God hates fags", I'm not inclined to believe that is mere hate of the sin.
Yes. Luther offered the first translation in a "common" language, i.e not Hebrew, Latin or Greek, but German. I think it's part of this heritage that drives me. Luther sought to eliminate the middle man aspect of the Catholic church holding sole power over the interpretation of the scriptures and searched instead for a direct relationship with God and the Bible. It's a powerful choice, fraught with danger of misinterpretation by an individual just as much as by a church in the position of power. It often overwhelms and certainly humbles me. I do not pretend to know all, that's for sure. ;-)
The translation from Luther's "verschnitten" to Eunuch. verschitten literally means "cut". There is a German word for Eunuch, which is das Eunuch and for kastrated, der Kastrat, so I wonder why verschnitten is used.
As with any translation, I also wonder about Luther's choices, since I can't read the original texts from which he translated.
cindy444, is it hate for the homosexuals or hate for the sin of homosexuality, specifically the sexual practices of homosexuality, you're seeing expressed because there is a huge difference. And the reason there is so much about this issue is because of all that is going on not only in our country but throughout the world to promote the acceptance of a lifestyle that many Christians believe is condemned as sin in the Word of God. And yes we in the Christian community need to do our best to ensure the world can see the difference that like God we hate the sin, but our desire is to also see people who are caught up in the sins of this lifestyle to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ before it is everlastingly to late because that is God's desire as well.
cindy444
this is interesting because my understanding is that because of luther, germany was the first country to receive a bible in their own language.
i realy dont not trust translations that give in ordinate power to one word so that understandings of a group of verses revolves around the meaning of a single word.
regardless, i would be interested in your translation of matt 19:11-12 which involved the term "eneuch"
Oops. Professing not professor.
Please understand...I am merely expressing my own internal conflict with what I read to be a message of love from God and hate I've seen coming from other Christians when it comes to homosexuals. There almost seems an unhealthy fixation on it, particularly when I see a new headline about gays nearly daily here. There are so many other issues that pull me stronger through God's word.
Yes. There are certainly references to marriage of man and wife in the Bible. I do find Ruth's response to Naomi interesting, particularly as it's so frequently used in marriage ceremonies. I find it ironic that men and women getting married use the words of a woman (Ruth) to another woman (Naomi), professor her commitment to her.
Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the LORD deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me."
cindy444, although I do believe that there are verses that can be translated to show the sexual practices of homosexuality are condemned as sin by the Word of God, for the sake of this discussion I'll say they don't, but could you please cite for me any verses of scripture that in any way either, encourage, endorse, or approve of the sexual practices of homosexuality or same-sex marriages. There are numerous verses that speak to marriage in the context of one man and one woman as well as God's guidelines for the marriage of a man and a woman and there are even passages talking about people who choose to stay single, but yet at the same time there is not one that speaks in a positive way to the homosexual lifestyle. Doesn't it seem odd that a supposed normal lifestyle is not spoken to once in the Word of God?
>Where did you get your history that the word "homosexuality" was coined in the 19th century? Was 1 Corinthians 6:9 or 1 Timothy 1:10 written in the 19th century? Just wanted to give you a history lesson.
Homosexuality is a modern word that did not exist when the Bible was written. That is just simple fact. There may have been words that were used in its place at the time of the Bible, but it did not appear in print in German until 1869 or so.
As I've watched the debate on homosexuality, I've become more and more concerned as a Christian at the images of outright hate I've seen from our Christian brothers and felt I needed to know my Bible more.
I'm of German heritage, so I thought I'd start with an earlier translation than the King James version my Lutheran church used. So I went back to Luther's 1545 translation.
The passages you site, for instance, don't contain the word "homosexual", nor really a word that I an reasonably believe could be used interchangeably.
Corinthians 6:9 contains only two possibilities "Weichlinge" - which can be translated as soft, weak and effeminate and "Knabenschaender" - a term meaning to bring shame to a young boy or molester of young boys. Neither is homosexual. I suppose there are those that might take the translation effeminate, but soft or weak are just as likely. Knabenschaender is really a pedophile, which again, isn't homosexual anymore than a straight man molesting young girls is heterosexual sex.
Timothy 1:10 likewise uses Knabenschaender. Pedastry not homosexuality.
Seeing this troubles me as a Christian that has seen translations to completely different terms, particularly switching pedophilia to homosexuality or "mankind" in place of "young boy". It bothers my spirit and soul to think these translations are being used as a hammer against others that are God's creation as I am.
What of these potential problems with translation? What if God's word has been lost in translation and we are harming others when "love thy neighbor" is a translation with no part of the message unclear.
Cindy444: Where did you get your history that the word "homosexuality" was coined in the 19th century? Was 1 Corinthians 6:9 or 1 Timothy 1:10 written in the 19th century? Just wanted to give you a history lesson.
2tim4:3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
sound doctrine would be doctine that thru reason embraces the teachings of christ, paul and the apostles and the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ.
everything i have written has done that.
yours and my departure comes in that i do not include traditions and traditonal legal understanding.
Mark 7:8
You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
Mark 7:9
And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
Galatians 1:13-15
13For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the TRADITIONS of my fathers. 15But when God, who set me apart from birth[a] and called me by his grace, was pleased
CONTINUED
what is traditonal thinking? it is any thinking based on traditional legal reason and understanding that is devoid of any understanding and fellowship witness of the spirit.
"if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another."
"you will recognize them by their fruit"(fruit of the spirit)
in romans, paul says in the new covenant of christ, we "are led by" and "serve of" the spirit.
my point is that the traditional teachings about homosexuality have been wrong based on the teachings of those listed above, and by witness thru fellowship of the spirit
and rather than showing how my reasoning is wrong thru reasoning of the scriptures, those who disagree, instead only repeat the scriptures, and make negative aspersions.
and the reason for this is that they still embrace the old relationship to the written code under the old covenant. that like in deut under the old covenant, god established ( they make no acknowledgement that all things are thru christ because god put all things under him.) a second written code for the new covenant in spite of pauls words
we died to the law and are resurrected with christ and live under grace
we no longer have the old relationship to the written code.
we are given the three commandments of love, all being commandments led by and serving of the spirit which more than following the law thru them we now fulfill it. (in other words these commandments do more than follow the law
and that now the law is for making us conscious of living the love of three commandments.
jesus said he was sending the holy spirit to teach us all things , that at the present time there was " more to say to you, more than you can now bear." the holy spirit also being a spirit.
>LET'S STOP AND CUT 2 THE POINT!! LET'S STOP USING THE WORD "GAY" IS NOT "GAY" AND CALL IT WHAT THE WORD OF GOD CALLS IT. " Homosexuality"
If the term "homosexuality" was first coined in the 19th century, how can it be in the bible?
Feet:
Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, 1 Corinthians 6:9, Hebrews 13:14, Revelation 21:8, 22:15.
And the first mention: Genesis 2:24
Glad I could help!
But the passage you should REALLY read is 2 Timothy 4:3. It is scary how that passage relates to current thought.
you are confusing the issue.
there are 2 issues but none are discussed.
the political one .......each person is entitled to equal protection and life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness without recriminaton according to someones religious understandings. that is the seperaton between church and state.
no active homosexual has been found wanting in any sector of society compared to active heterosexuals.
they are not less a father, friend , administrator, counselor, soldier, neighbor , brother, etc
the other issue is between believers. that scripture has never said homosexuality was a sin. no one has been ever able to show how the words of the verses say otherwise.
and that homosexuality is of the spirit of christ.
homosexuals bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals. they bond out of mutual love,devotion,trust, respect, and attraction for a shared committed life together.
and that homosexuality no more comes against loving ones neighbor as oneself than heterosexuality does, the summation of all the law...................... the second greatest commandment.
It is typical of the homosexual activists to try to label as "hate" anything critical or at all condemning of their lifestyle. This is a tactic of the enemy. Satan knows what he is doing - those who deny a real, personal, evil that has a directed will, should take note of the situation. The devil doesn't give up, he finds new ways constantly. This particular tactic is designed to get hate speech laws enacted in free societies to shut down all dialogue and criticism of "protected" groups. Thus, as has already happened in Canada and is happening in Europe, a preacher can face charges for simply preaching the word of God in his pulpit. Who do you think is behind this?
Make no mistake, the militant homosexual activists hate Christianity with a passion because it stands in their way, confronts them with their sin and the evil of it, and tells them "no further". They hate the church of God with a raging passion (have you ever seen them in full fury on T.V. at some of these rallies against gay marriage? Have you seen and heard the venom and bile they spew toward Christians? It is clearly being fueled by something far beyond them - something very demonic); they are being driven by the enemy himself.
Trubeliever--
No matter what you call yourself, you are no believer. The disgusting blasphemy you uttered about Jesus and the Apostle Paul, etc, simply goes to show how truly and utterly lost some souls are, and what dark forces are driving them. I'll pray for you, I really will, you are a very twisted and sad soul if you could write that. I hope the Holy Spirit works in your life and changes your heart. Don't think you are going to anger anyone around here with your blasphemies, you can egg on Christians all you want but all you're going to get as a response from most of us is simply to shake our heads and pray for you.
trubeliever (in satan) - your post doesn't even warrant a comment. Oh yeah, go ahead and hit that "hate" button a few more times. Get out your anger!
espanol - love your comment
PreacherAZ - I use the word "gay" simply because it's shorter, but I agree with you.
igh - I have always enjoyed your comments.
BTW - off to worship the Lord this morning in America!!! Praise the Lord for my brothers and sisters in Christ.
She is not a minister of the Lord Jesus. Has not the Spirit. Nor the Truth. Ah yes the goal of gays is to take over, by controling others , in the schools causing all who refuse to bow to there tactics and brain washing to be abused by there own peers and the staff of there schools and suffer horribly, this is the True nature of gays. To get corrupt legislatures and courts and governors at every level to give them what they want any way they can. If they loved Justice and fair play they would not stoop to such low practices which show there true nature. Trying to get laws passed that punishes those who oppose them, they delight in the suffering of all who oppose them, which shows there true nature. You can see how Jesus does things and his Father. Then take a look at how the flesh does things. I throw my lot in with God.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Greetings All who know and Love Our Lord Jesus Christ.
LET'S STOP AND CUT 2 THE POINT!! LET'S STOP USING THE WORD "GAY" IS NOT "GAY" AND CALL IT WHAT THE WORD OF GOD CALLS IT. " Homosexuality" IN THIS VERY AREA WE THE CHURCH HAS SIN, BY NOT SAYING WHAT THE BIBLE SAY. SO SAD WHEN THE WORLD WORDS AND MIND has TAKEN OVER..
The PreacherAZ
I can only shake my head. Satan is is on an all out attack on the Church. Is not written in the Bible:
"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect".
"deem their own prideful and sinful attitudes as being superior to the Word of God."
i know of only one word of god. that is jesus christ, who was at the beginning and under whom god has put all things.
surely one who felt themselves above christ would not seek to marry in the church.
in this country you dont need to be married in the church to be married.
obviously your characterizations are about your belief system's understanding of the law............in other your words are about being led by your understanding of the law.
A retired minister should not be allowed to officiate any wedding... what a shame!
Love the new features of the CP's site - like the "delete" feature. Now we don't have to flag ourselves when we make a mistake.
Way to go CP!
dongard and Sunshine-
I love it! Everytime someone opposes the gay movement with sincere concerns, they're labeled haters.
You two must be a card carrying gay agenda members. The word "hate" is used extensively from the gay agenda to make great Americans feel low. Well, I've got news for you - you've pushed this one button one too many times. Sure, the calling of Christians, Muslims, Jews and other with sincere religious convictions words like "hate-monger", homophobic, intolerant, and others have had some short term effect, but we're tiring of your name calling. The general public is tiring of you demeaning anyone opposed to your sick, perverted and God forsaken lifestyle.
So here's what going to happen: The gay pride parades with keep getting more disgusting (nakedness and sex in the streets), pedophiles will ride in on the coat tails of the gay movement (come out of the closet as you'd say), polygomy will get a green light, and bestiality with be the next fad, and then .....well, we Christian know what happens.
Repent from your sins and come to the Cross where there's true freedom from Satan's deceptions.
Don't worry star2, GOD loves Gays! May the spirit of JESUS CHRIST awaken your dim mind to issues GOD endorses, such as Gay Marriages.
May God forgive them and grant them repentance someday before it is too late.
i find it interesting that there is so much hate in the christian heart. i leave it to you to decide if that hate comes from you or your god, but it is there for all to see.
feel -
You haven't a clue what you're talking about, but I would have to agree that there is a spirit that this fake minister adheres to; it's called the demonic spirit!!
Once again, an example of supposed priest that scoff the church and shove their agenda down other peoples throat. Get the wolves out from the sheep!!!
This is absolutely disgusting. This woman is no "minister", women are forbidden from pastoral positions (first heresy of the Presbyterian Church U.S.A.) by scripture, try as the liberals might to dodge it.
This "marriage" she performed is no marriage in the eyes of God. It is nothing but a feel-good ceremony for a couple of people who deem their own prideful and sinful attitudes as being superior to the Word of God. They are living in a gravely sinful lifestyle in contradiction to God's Word, therefore they are under His wrath and will face His judgment.
It is one thing to sin and be repentant, to feel guilt for one's actions and ask God for forgiveness as one struggles with one's sins. It is quite another thing to put oneself above God's Word, to declare what God calls sinful to not be sinful, and in fact, call what is sinful "good"...then perpetrate such a ceremony in the name of the Holy Living God.
These women are shameful, and this "minister" is an apostate.
"The constitution of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) defines marriage as a covenant between a man and a woman. The denomination's top court ruled in 2000 that ministers can bless same-sex unions as long as the ceremonies are not called a marriage and don't mimic traditional weddings."
reverend spahr took paul's words to heart that we no longer have have the old relationship to the "written code", but now in christ under the new covenant are led by and serve of the spirit.
she witnessed that the mutual love, devotion,trust,respect, and attraction that was between the 2 women was of the same essence as is called for of heterosexual marrying couples.
and having acknowledged this dedicated spirit between them served of the spirit by marrying them.
there is not a better example that shows the contrast between being led by the law and being led by and serving of the spirit.
she is right that if the majority of christendom was embracing the new covenant of christ, then yes, the church would be leading on the issue of homosexuals being declared in essence fully equal to heterosexuals.
This is an embarrassment to all Presbyterians. Tell me, Presbyterian brothers and sisters in Christ, what can the rest of us do to support you in keeping the faith?