The world-wide Anglican Communion has been skating on thin ice for decades now, skirting disaster only by an infinitely creative arrangement of compromises. Now, with the Lambeth Conference of Anglican bishops coming in just a few weeks, a group of 300 conservative Anglican bishops is meeting in Jerusalem. Their meeting will make history, and may well define the ultimate breakup of global Anglicanism.
The Global Anglican Future Conference [GAFCON] featured an address by Dr. Peter Akinola, Archbishop of Nigeria, on Sunday evening. Archbishop Akinola has emerged as one of the most courageous and theologically committed leaders of worldwide Anglicanism.
In his address, delivered as something of a keynote for the event, Archbishop Akinola declared that "a sizable part of the Communion is in error and not a few are apostate." This gets to the heart of The Anglican dilemma. The issues now separating liberals and conservatives within the global Anglican Communion are no longer matters on which compromise can be reached. To the contrary, the doctrinal and theological explosions connected to the issues of human sexuality and biblical authority have distilled the fundamental issues down to what is considered non-negotiable by both sides. Conservatives are unwilling to surrender biblical authority and the liberals are unwilling to surrender their determination to normalize homosexuality and other liberal causes. In reality, the division has already happened - all that remains is the final form of the division.
As Archbishop Akinola lamented, doctrinal "revisionists" have attempted to create a new religion in the place of historic biblical Christianity. In his words: "Clearly the bedrock of the revisionist perspective is the humanist, rather than theological approach. This is the crux of the problem: they are going in the opposite direction from what Biblical orthodoxy demands, and with such a mindset, a meeting-point with those who are labeled conservatives – who have chosen to stand where the Bible stands, becomes a very remote possibility."
As Ruth Gledhill of The Times [London] reported, Archbishop Akinola expressed frustration that Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams had arranged the upcoming Lambeth Conference in such a way that dealing with the fundamental issues would be virtually impossible. "Rejecting all entreaties, Lambeth Palace chose not to be bothered about that which troubles us; decided to stick to its own plans and to erect the walls of the 2008 Lambeth Conference on the shaky and unsafe foundations of our brokenness," he said.
Meanwhile, Archbishop Peter Jensen of the Australian archdiocese of Sydney described the Anglican breakup as tragic. Nevertheless, Dr. Jensen insisted that the issue of truth was more important than the imperative of unity. "We're not dealing with the secular world here, we are dealing with the Christian church, and the Christian church has a constitution which is the Bible," he said [see coverage in The Age [Melbourne].
In his address, Archbishop Akinola described how many Anglican believers around the world, especially in Africa, view the liberals in Western churches [see The Times]:
"Having survived the inhuman physical slavery of the 19th century, the political slavery called colonialism of the 20th century, the developing world economic enslavement, we cannot, we dare not, allow ourselves and the millions we represent to be kept in a religious and spiritual dungeon." Continue >>
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star2, I figure this is just planting seeds.
All in God's timing. There are things that He is convicting me about now, that 3 months ago I was perfectly fine with. So I know how God works sometimes.
Prophet - God revealed to me that what his problem is is that He hasn't dealt with him about the issue.
star,
Hebrews 10:26
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...
Amen wbmoore.
thanks Star2.
I am praying. and God keeps me coming back doing what I"m doing. At one point, in a different series of posts, God had me quit. This time, He has me responding. *shrug* I just provide clarification for Feet. God willing, he will be moved by the Holy Spirit to remove the scales from his eyes/heart and recognize and accept God's truth, grace, and love.
wbmoore, believer, Prophet
I know you all and others are going nowhere with feetxxxl. I think the problem is is that God isn't dealing with him about his sin yet. When someone has a sin issue in his/her life God doesn't necessarily work in the person's life for repentance when others think He ought to. God has a time when He will deal with him about this issue of homosexuality and his need to surrender it to God so that God can set him free from it. Maybe you need to ask God how to minister to him. You'll see more success because you are praying exactly the will of God and you'll know exactly what God wants you to do. Any way, be patient, and seek God in what He would have you do.
wb, totally agree with you on the vital importance of repentance in the life of the believer and non-believer alike.
On the surrender issue, I believe that is a process that we'll not see completed until we go on to glory, but I do believe a person who has had a genuine conversion experience will also come to a place in their relationship with the Lord where they realize if they are to truly become the Christ-like person God wants them to be in order for God to use them to their fullest for His glory that will require them to be surrendered to the Lordship of Christ and they will make the decision to begin that process. Because as you said, and I believe rightfully so, surrender is a daily choice by choice decision as to who will be Lord of every area of our life.
" but could there be however the exception of the person who is caught up in a sinful lifestyle or sin and wrestling with God in a final attempt to either prove that God does not condemn their lifestyle or sin or that they cannot change or they just don't get it with regards to the sin or sinful lifestyle they are caught up in and yet God as their heavenly Father continues to discipline them.. "
Wow. what a question!
I think we are saved when we change from the known sins in our lives and surrender to God, accepting Christ as our savior.
However, I think that we ARE often unknowingly sinful. But as we mature in our faith in Christ, God works in us to show us what He wants us to surrender to Him. I KNOW we might not want to accept that we have to give up a sin and whle we trust in Christ for salvation, we will search the scriptures looking for a way to justify our behavior.
But once we see the scripture that tells us to change, we need to surrender - or begin the process of surrender. I have had times when I had to pray for the desire to change what God said I needed to change. Eventually, that sin went away.
But what I think most Christians miss is the attitude of selfishness we have. As long as we continue to focus on the sins, we will keep fighting them down, and other (previously addressed) sins will pop back up.
We miss the true freedom that comes with faith in Christ. It IS surrender of self. We are to die with Christ on the cross. What rights do the dead have? None. We are to be new creations. What sins do infant babies commit? None, they know no better and inherently trust us implicitly.
I think we miss out on peace and other blessings that God wants to bestow on us because of our willful sinful attitudes. We do not want to accept the fact that GOD is in control. We do not WANT the Lordship of Christ in our lives. And so we suffer.
I am not sure if I could honestly say that Christ has full Lordship in my life, but I am constantly trying to surrender more and more to Him. But even so, I think the focus is off. It seems to me that as long as I am focusing on the little things, I am missing the big ME that needs to be surrendered. I have surrendered my life to Christ. I am HIS. What I own is HIS. What I will have is HIS. But I am beginning to believe I need to focus on Christ and surrendering my attitudes and rights to Him.
Actually, I think I have to surrender even more, but this is a learning process I am currently in, so I dont know what the more is yet. I think I am missing something in the image of the cross that prevents me from understanding and accepting my true position in Christ. From my readings, I belive once I come to that understanding, I will be even more content and unworried and obedient.
Believer wrote:
"I totally agree that someone who continues to willfully sin or practice a sinful lifestyle who shows no remorse or guilt has never made a genuine profession of faith in Christ,"
Scripture says that Godly sorrow leads to repentance. It helps us become who God wants us to be.
2 Corinthians 7:8-10
8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret itâ€â€I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little whileâ۠9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Its the repentance that is the key.
prophet & wb, I totally agree that someone who continues to willfully sin or practice a sinful lifestyle who shows no remorse or guilt has never made a genuine profession of faith in Christ, but could there be however the exception of the person who is caught up in a sinful lifestyle or sin and wrestling with God in a final attempt to either prove that God does not condemn their lifestyle or sin or that they cannot change or they just don't get it with regards to the sin or sinful lifestyle they are caught up in and yet God as their heavenly Father continues to discipline them. I'm talking about for lack of a better term the miserable Christian who is not experiencing the peace or joy of their salvation as a result of this struggle. I know this may be different but early on in my Chrisitian life I struggled with the Lordship issue, it wasn't that I didn't want to surrender I just didn't get it and as a result I was miserable and not experiencing the peace and joy of my salvation, but once I did choose to surrender to the Lordship of Christ that all changed. If I'm not clear in what I'm trying to say let me know.
Prophet,
Good catch. I must have been almost asleep when I read his post. Sorry I didn't catch it.
Feet, I know of no one with faith in Christ who continues to do what God said not to do without agreeing with God that it is sin and working to change.
feet,
You said "i didnt know you've had so mmuch fellowship with gay believers." I never have, because there is no such thing. If they were believers then they would know they were sinnning, if they are gay then they don't believe the Word of God. It's acutally quites simple.
Ther may be gay religious people, but they are not believers or Christians. I hope that answers your question.
feet wrote:
"i didnt know you've had so mmuch fellowship with gay believers. you said that homosexuals dont bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals. i am assuming that this understanding contributes to your believing it is a sin. could you please explain the difference and if it has anything to do with what is written romans1"
Speaking from my own perspective (I have never been a man in a long term homosexual relationship, although I have had homosexual experiences as teen) and speaking in general, the friendship bond between two men seems different than between a man and woman. Both men seem much more independent than a man and woman. A Christian man and woman often seem to have well defined roles (although not always). Non-Christian couples seem to have difficulty as they force roles upon themselves and each other - this is true of both homosexual couples and heterosexual couples. Its much more common for a man to show a woman tenderness than a man to show a man the same (although it does of course happen). Often it seems like one or both of the men is trying too hard.
But speaking Biblically, I'd have to say the main difference is God defined marriage in Genesis and Jesus re-iterated it in Mark 10:6-10
6 But at the beginning of creation God "made them male and female." 7 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8 and the two will become one flesh." So they are no longer two, but one. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.
Also, God defined homosexual sex as sin in the Old and New Testament, and homosexual desire as sin in Romans 1, and elsewhere in the Bible. As I posted earlier, Jesus called us to not live sexually immoral lives and to not sin. I try to take that seriously.
For me, the Bible is the final word on any discussion or disagreement I have. I have times when I held a position strongly and someone showed me, in context, that the Bible taught something different or I read it during my devotion times. If the Bible says something different than what I think, I will try to find all verses dealing with that subject and then read them in context to come up with a more clear picture of that subject. But there have been times when I had to change the way I think or act because the Bible clearly showed I was not in alignment with God.
That's why I asked earlier, "if you think something is good and God said it was bad, who is right?" And "if you think something is bad and God said it was good, who is right?". I've had to change my position on things before - sometimes in the middle of a disagreement or argument.
the Bible is the measure for life, not the other way around. God is bigger than us, He created us and everything around us. He gets to set the rules. He decides what is best for us and what is not good for us. So when He gives a warning, I try to heed it.
i didnt know you've had so mmuch fellowship with gay believers. you said that homosexuals dont bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals. i am assuming that this understanding contributes to your believing it is a sin. could you please explain the difference and if it has anything to do with what is written romans1
Prophet, that was inspiring. thanks.
Amen, wbmoore
In my meeting with my pastor today we were discussing the apathy and laziness of the church. We talked about how Christians were becoming apathetic; thinking that Christianity was a vacation, not a war; thinking only of themselves; not even caring about their own Christian brothers and sisters that they can't even care about the world. A great 20th century prophet wrote "The world is sleeping in the dark, and the Church just can't fight because it's asleep in the light."
And with that comes the apathy towards God and His Holy Word. And when that happens they are seduced by the doctrines of demons and led astray like simple minded children.
But hold fast to the truth that is His Word. Do not deviate! Do not turn to one side or another! Do not heed seductive words of the harlot! She will take you into her bed chamber and defile you, and the bride groom will cast you out because you have been defiled.
Make your way sure. Though you are persecuted, remain in His Truth. Though you are ridiculed, do not deny His Word. Though you are killed for His sake, rejoice that you have remained faithful to the end; for His faithfullness to you will never end. Be encouraged when those around you fall. Though a thousand fall at your right side, and ten thousand on your right, remain standing.
My brother, speak the truth. Do not hold it back. Do not tell God "no" when He asks you to speak. For though you are persecuted in this life for speaking His words, a worse judgement waits for them.
His mercy endures forever.
Let's see what else John says about sinning and whether someone sinning is born of God
.
1 John 3:7-10
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
You have to do what is right - obey God and not sin as HE defined it, and you have to love. BOTH are expected of us.
Paul wrote:
1 Timothy 5:20, “Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.â€Â
Hebrews 3:13, “But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called Today, so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.â€Â
Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
2 Tim 2:1-5
1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of Godâ۠5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
We simply have to obey God, rather than be hardened by the deceitfulness or sin.
But we are in the end times, when people prefer their own pleasure and thoughts to a life dedicated to God.
I think the single quotes and the dash (especially if cut and paste from word) is causing the messed up characters. I sent an email to CP.
"you dont consort with habitual sinners, therefore you would have no 1john 1 witness(" that which we have looked at, which we have seen with our eyes and our hands have touched") of gay 15-30 year bonded relationships.................. and you would have no fellowship witness with the same among gay believers.( if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another)"
First, you have know idea of who I consort with. I have worked with out homosexuals, and I have ministered to all sorts of people. As I have said, some of them were quite moral. But they were not saved. I have known people in long term committed relationships; they were also nice. But the thing is, they were still going against the word of God. The difference is, they did not pretend to be a Christian.
Let's look at what 1 John 1 says concerning witness:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touchedâ€â€this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete.
John gave witness because He knew Christ - so he would have 1st hand knowledge of what Christ said.
But let us look at the rest of 1 John 1:
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
He made it quite clear that if you claim Christ and yet sin (walk in darkness), then you lie and do not have Christ.
"plus in addition, your contention is regardless of whether they are equal to heterosexuals in every way..........................................god has said it is a sin in scripture and one of those places is romans1"
The difference is whether one is sinning or not. If you live a life of sin, then you are not saved. If you claim Christ, then according to John, you should not sin.
Hey feet,
Don't forget to put in your post that Jesus hung with the whores and drunks.
But what you don't realize (or don't want to admit) is that though Jesus hung with them, didn't mean that He approved of their behavior, much less promoted it.
Homosexuals love to use the illustration that Jesus hung with the sinners as to justify that we should too. Well, I do. And I also act like Christ in those situations by not approving or promoting their sin. I love them, but I don't join in their sin. Basically, homosexuals are saying "Jesus hung with the prostitutes so He must have been using their services. He hung with the drunks so He must have been one too."
That is just sick.
"in the old covenant, god put forth regulations, which were to be followed (deut 28)the nature of this kind of relationship, was that the isrealites were led by regulation(law). your contention is that this is the same relationship we have to god under the new covenant of christ.(whether there are changes or not in the law) it is this relationship to the law that if we maimtain the same obedience to regulation, as the obedience that was expected in the old covenant, it shows our love for god."
Actually, not exactly. In the old testament, we were given rules for how to live, with punishments that would be meted out by people. Any spiritual problems were covered by the physical sacrifice. In the New Testament, the rules have not changed, but they are to point us to our need for Christ. The punishment is relieved for those who put their trust in Christ, because Christ paid the price for the sins of those who believe.
Now the catch that you can't seem to understand is that to love Christ, you need to obey. Scripture says over and over that if you love Christ you will obey Him. Scripture says to leave sin - which is defined in the Old Testament and expanded upon in the New Testament.
"i say this because you say that in regards to homosexuality, god thru discussion(his word) of the law in scripture has said that he deems homosexuality unacceptable."
He said it is sin - in both the Old and New Testaments.
"this why you said that homosexuality does not bond in the same spirit as heterosexuality, because of what you understand is written in scripture."
No. It is because of what is written in Scripture - not because of what I understand is written in Scripture.
feet,
John 3:1-6
1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
feet, if you were of the spirit of God you would understand the things of the Spirit. But you are not. You are carnal. And a carnally minded person cannot understand the things of the Spirit. Because just after that passage I posted Jesus says "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
And that is why you don't/won't understand. As I've said before and I'll say it again. You are not a Christian, therefore some things are not for you to know.
in the old covenant, god put forth regulations, which were to be followed (deut 28)the nature of this kind of relationship, was that the isrealites were led by regulation(law). your contention is that this is the same relationship we have to god under the new covenant of christ.(whether there are changes or not in the law) it is this relationship to the law that if we maimtain the same obedience to regulation, as the obedience that was expected in the old covenant, it shows our love for god.
i say this because you say that in regards to homosexuality, god thru discussion(his word) of the law in scripture has said that he deems homosexuality unacceptable.
this why you said that homosexuality does not bond in the same spirit as heterosexuality, because of what you understand is written in scripture.
you dont consort with habitual sinners, therefore you would have no 1john 1 witness(" that which we have looked at, which we have seen with our eyes and our hands have touched") of gay 15-30 year bonded relationships.................. and you would have no fellowship witness with the same among gay believers.( if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another)
plus in addition, your contention is regardless of whether they are equal to heterosexuals in every way..........................................god has said it is a sin in scripture and one of those places is romans1
so what was it about the fruit on the tree, was it like the magic mushrooms there been a recent study about?. how did putting a piece of fruit in ones mouth make that person die. did it transform the molecules of his body into something it wasnt before. how does a piece of fruit make changes in that persons body or make them more knowledgeable about anything, so that god can say that this knowledge will cause them to die. and what kind of death was it?
and you are saying that there is wide spread agreement on the answers to these questions in christendom.
feet,
Like many unknowlegable people, you have misquoted scripture. You said "need to eat for sustenance and may eat from any tree, but do not eat from the tree of good and evil."
The tree is not the tree of good and evil...its the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. And that is why God did not want Adam and Eve eating of it. Because (as it is written) God said "for in the day you eat of it you will die."
But satan twisted the Words of God around (just as he does today with the topic of homosexuality) and said "You will not surely die, For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
??if i am not misstating you, your belief is that under the new covenant god puts "garden of edens" type situations in our lives and says do this............. dont do this." you need to eat for sustenance and may eat from any tree, but do not eat from the tree of good and evil." i say garden of eden, because 4000 or whatever years later ther is no clear agreement among believers as to what the sin was about eating it. only they were told not to do it and they did it. and this what you say is the relationship we now have with the father under the new covenant.. yes i have made the anus an errogenous zone but do not touch it for sexual pleasure. yes i have allowed you to have a desire to bond with the same sex , but you are not to express it in any way.
im not interested in what was or was not said. what im asking is there any correlation between this understanding and your understanding that homosexuality is a sin?"
I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for.
Life is a series of choices. We can choose to believe God or not. We can choose to obey God or not.
Just as Pharaoh chose to disobey God because he did not believe and he harden his own heart, so too did God harden his heart. In the New Testament, we have liberty, within bounds. We are not to cause our brother to stumble. We are not to live lives of sin (which God defines), nor have hearts that covet sin. Just as in the Old Testament the Jews had to obey God, so too in the New Testament believers must obey God. But Christ took it up a notch - we are not even to commit sins in our hearts, let alone outwardly.
??if i am not misstating you, your belief is that under the new covenant god puts "garden of edens" type situations in our lives and says do this............. dont do this." you need to eat for sustenance and may eat from any tree, but do not eat from the tree of good and evil." i say garden of eden, because 4000 or whatever years later ther is no clear agreement among believers as to what the sin was about eating it. only they were told not to do it and they did it. and this what you say is the relationship we now have with the father under the new covenant.. yes i have made the anus an errogenous zone but do not touch it for sexual pleasure. yes i have allowed you to have a desire to bond with the same sex , but you are not to express it in any way."
im not interested in what was or was not said. what im asking is there any correlation between this understanding and your understanding that homosexuality is a sin?
(4)
“there were 11 of them. they all thanked me for my request. that was a year ago, since then nothing. my request was to please, either send me or tell me where i can find all reference materials that validated the transpositon. i could not believe that an interjection, this huge, that would SPECIFICALLY single a particular group, not out of spirit evidence but by their inner essence, as sinners, would have no references for having done so. my only explanation for something this corrupt, was because the earliest translations took place in 19th century england. 1n the 1500's king henry passed a law making acts of sodomy punishable by hanging. it remained on the books for 400 years. this and there is no seperation betwen church and state in england. the queen is head of the church of england. the same way that henry was in the 1500's.â€Â
It just maybe, possibly, sorta, might, have been because there was no need to address your email directly. The scripture does so, over and over. It is one thing to address a question that is earnestly seeking information. It is another to address a question that is intended only to seek ways to knock down a position.
It certainly seems to me that you have a demon of confusion blinding your eyes, mind, and spirit to seeing, understanding, and accepting the truth of what God has said concerning homosexual desire and sex. I pray to God He will clear your eyes, mind, spirit from this oppression.
(3)
“you use the "word of god" over and over. i know of only one word of god.................it is christ who was here from the beginning. if he was here from the beginning then whatever was the word, was christ..â€Â
As I'm sure you know, I use the term 'word of God' to indicate the Bible, which is God breathed. Christ is the 'Word of God'. But the Bible is the 'word of God'., according to Scripture
John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came - and the Scripture cannot be broke - 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
Also notice that the Bereans were searching Scripture to see if what Paul preached was true, and that Paul preached the word of God.
Acts 17:11-13
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men. 13 When the Jews in Thessalonica learned that Paul was preaching the word of God at Berea, they went there too, agitating the crowds and stirring them up.
“there were no specific teachings about homosexuality. the translators attempted to make those such teachings when they decided to say "malebed" meant "homosexual."
Yes there are. You are trying to ignore scripture again. Leviticus tells us what sex acts God considers to be sexually immoral and sin. Jesus said to not sin and not be sexually immoral. In Romans, God calls homosexual desire and sex to be shameful, sinful, depraved, and unnatural, sexual immorality, degrading, indecent and perversion.
at biblegateway i emailed every translator who transposed the word"homosexual" for the word " male bed."
Again, this is an irrelevant strawman argument. God did not have to coin the term at that time, because it was very clear to his audience then (and NOW) what He meant. In Romans 1, God calls homosexual desire and sex to be shameful, sinful, depraved, and unnatural, sexual immorality, degrading, indecent and perversion. There is no need to use the word homosexual, since this is a recently coined term that describes man lying with men and women lying with women, which is what was described in Romans 1.
(2)
“if i am not misstating you, your belief is that under the new covenant god puts "garden of edens" type situations in our lives and says do this............. dont do this." you need to eat for sustenance and may eat from any tree, but do not eat from the tree of good and evil." i say garden of eden, because 4000 or whatever years later ther is no clear agreement among believers as to what the sin was about eating it. only they were told not to do it and they did it. and this what you say is the relationship we now have with the father under the new covenant.. yes i have made the anus an errogenous zone but do not touch it for sexual pleasure. yes i have allowed you to have a desire to bond with the same sex , but you are not to express it in any way."
Um. No that is not what I said. What I said was:
God created us with the ability to make choices. Satan had his free will and used it to influence Adam and Eve, who chose to disobey. God has allowed us to sin or not sin. He gives us the Holy Spirit to enable us to not sin, if we believe. But we have the option and responsibility to choose to not sin.
God tests our hearts:
1 Thessalonians 2:4
On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts.
Notice that God does not tempt anyone, but He DOES test us:
James 1:12-14
Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. 13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
The Bible tells us what God considers good and bad, in both the old and new testaments. While you seem to want to test things by a 'spirit', I test things by the Bible. It is a manual of how to live and not live.
“there is no clear agreement among believers who support the above as god's regulations. and you would say that is not important. what is important is that he said it.
The only people who do not agree, seem to be those who do not hold to the Scriptures in their whole being the word of God and are trying to relegate the scripture as irrelevant and not applicable to their sinful desires.
God calls homosexual desire and sex to be shameful, sinful, depraved, and unnatural, sexual immorality, degrading, indecent and perversion.
(1)
Apparently I was not clear enough in my original response to Feet’s questions. So I will try to take them point by point and be more clear.
Feet wrote:
“i think on the issue of homosexuality being a sin, everything rises and falls on romans. “
I'd say whether homosexual desire and homosexual sex are sinful hinge on the whole bible, not just Romans. The Old Testament defined sexual immorality (the sex acts that God calls wrong) and said to not do the things that are defined as wrong. The New Testament says do not be sexually immoral - it is not just in Romans.
Although Romans is abundantly clear that God called the desire of one man for another (or one woman for another) to be shameful, sinful, depraved, and unnatural. He called the act sexual immorality, degrading, and indecent. And it appears to me that He called both the desire and the act of a man lying with a man (or woman lying with a woman) perversion.
“please be more specific on which verses one can or cannot transpose the word "homosexual"for the personal pronouns.â€Â
You are the one who said it was possible substitute homosexual for the pronouns. If you want to do it, you try it. I simply said it looks like it fits. I also said that whether you can or not do that does not validate or invalidate any verses - nor does it make the principle invalid or inapplicable. However, after you did the substitution, it looked like it DOES fit even more than when I read it doing the substitutions on the fly.
But as I have said, whether you substitute ‘homosexual’ (and its plural/possessive) for the pronouns does not validate or invalidate the scripture. The Scripture in Romans 1 is about exchanging something for God - and the consequences are being given over to more sin. By exchanging your desires/thoughts for what God' says, you put yourself (a created thing) in the place of God. When this happens you are given over to what God has called sexual desire and between people of the same gender to be shameful, sinful, depraved, unnatural, and the sexual act between people of the same gender to sexual immorality, degrading, and indecent.
They are both sins – in the Old Testament, we only see God speaking out against the act, but in the New Testament we see that it Is not just our actions that matter, but our thoughts and emotions as well.
God called the desire of one man for another (or one woman for another) to be shameful, sinful, depraved, and unnatural. He called the act sexual immorality, degrading, and indecent. And it appears to me that He called both the desire and the act of a man lying with a man (or woman lying with a woman) perversion.
Love between two people does not remove the charactization of bad from anything God has defined as bad - homosexual sex, or any other kind. Love does not make bad behavior correct in the eyes of God.
Since God called homosexual desire and sex sinful, sexual immorality, etc., then it IS a sin. Since it is a sin, then for someone to say they love God but refuse to turn away from their sin, then that person has not repented. Since there is not repentance, there is no salvation.
God calls it a sin for a man to lay with a man, or a woman to lay with a woman. If someone tries to get someone else to sin, that is sin. It is an act against one's brother or sister. That is not love, but selfishness.
Thus, homosexual desire and homosexual sex are sins and sexually immoral. To willingly engage in them is selfishness and sin. To engage in them with someone else is to encourage someone else to sin. To cause someone else to sin is selfishness. This goes against both what the Bible teaches and what anyone who loves God more than himself would think is the 'spirit of love' to use your phrase.
If you want to go to heaven and be with God, change (which is what repent means) from your sin and believe God and turn to GOD. This is salvation. If its true belief (faith/trust), then your life will show evidence of the faith.
Feet, I DID answer you at 9:26.
Also, to clear up your confusion what is the word of God (lowecase):
Let me remind you of what (lowercase) 'the word of God' is (Note that Jesus called Scripture the 'word of God'):
John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God cameâ€â€and the Scripture cannot be brokenâ۠36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
Alson notice that the Bereans were searching Scripture to see if what Paul preached was true, and that Paul preached the word of God.
Acts 17:11-13
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men. 13 When the Jews in Thessalonica learned that Paul was preaching the word of God at Berea, they went there too, agitating the crowds and stirring them up.
wbmoore
im still waiting for you to answer the rest of my questions in my 7:17 pm email.
wbmoore, talk about getting to the heart of the matter, your last post not only got to the matter it got to the heart of salvation, true repentance and that teaching is so sadly lacking in many of our evangelical churches today. Be blessed as you serve Him, believer.
Feet,
You can go ahead and try to justify all you want. But the fact of the matter is, God called the desire of one man for another (or one woman for another) to be shameful, sinful, depraved, and unnatural. He called the act sexual immorality, degrading, and indecent.
So since He called it sinful, sexual immorality, etc., then it IS a sin. Since it is a sin, then for someone to say they love God but refuse to turn away from their sin, then that person has not repented. Since there is not repentance, there is no salvation.
1 Thes4:3-8
3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control his own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
It is about exchanging something for God - and the consequences are being given over to more sin. By exchanging your desires for God's you put yourself (a created thing) in the place of God. But you are free to disagree. I have shown and shown you what God said about homosexuality being a sin. You can ignore it. But doing so is disobedience to God.
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
just as a quick response, yes it does address same sex relations, but is it addressing homosexuality....... no.
scriptures condemnation balaam's of isrealite men having sex with pagan women, led on by balaam's inducement have anything to do heterosexual bonding? sex relations yes !human bonding no! does their behavior condemn heterosexuality? no!
however for those who believe romans is about homosexuality...........then it is for them who believe it does, either to expplain why the transposition doesnt work or why it does.
But whether you think it fits or not, the verses still say that homosexual sex is bad and sinful. Look at the verses, it says
24 Therefore God gave them over in the SINFUL DESIRES of their hearts to SEXUAL IMPURITY for the DEGRADING of their BODIES WITH ONE ANOTHER. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€â€who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to SHAMEFUL LUSTS. Even their WOMEN EXCHANGED NATURAL RELATIONS FOR UNNATURAL ones. 27 In the same way the MEN also ABANDONED NATURAL RELATIONS WITH WOMEN and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed INDECENT ACTS WITH OTHER MEN, and received in themselves the due penalty for their PERVERSION. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a DEPRAVED MIND, to do what OUGHT NOT TO BE DONE.
You can try to explain it away all you want, but God still said those things about men with men and women with women.
the questions are addressed to wbmoore but they are open to anyone to address.
please copy the question you are addressing so i can adequately address your comment.
feet,
What do you think - does it fit?
Cut and paste can cause this to happen - especially since Christian Post switched software. I think the funky characters are due to using double dashes (-), but I'm not sure.
feetxxxl, I know this is a conversation between you and wbmoore for the most part but since you're referring to Romans 1 so much I have got to say with all due respect as I read your posts you appear to me to epitomize the verse that says professing themselves to be wise they have become fools, I mean you go through this long drawn out disertation to try and justify a sinful lifestyle that as wbmoore and others have pointed out is condemned throughout the Word of God and nowhere in the Word of God is this sinful lifestyle ever condoned, endorsed, or encouraged. It's time to abandon this ship before it's too late.
for some reason the hyphens in the text printed out "a??"
my apologies!
HERE IT IS FOR YOU EDIFICATION. SURELY IF ROMANS 1 IS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY BEING A SIN THEN THE TRANSPOSITION FOR THE PRONOUNS IS VALID.
IS IT STILL VALID? PERHAPS YOU BELIEVE THAT HOMOSEXUAL COULD BE TRANSPOSED FOR ONLY SOME OF THE VERSES. IF SO WHICH ONES?
IF IT DOES NOT WORK FOR ANY, THEN IT IS NOT ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY BEING A SIN.
THERE WERE OTHER QUESTIONS BESIDES THE ONES ABOUT ROMANS. PLEASE RECOPY MY TEXT AND SEND INTERJECTING YOUR RESPONSES BETWEN MY PARAGRAPHS. THANK YOU.
DOES IT WORK?
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of homosexuals who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to homosexuals, because God has made it plain to homosexuals. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that homosexuals are without excuse.
21For although homosexuals knew God, homosexuals neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although homosexuals claimed to be wise, homosexuals became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave homosexuals over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25homosexuals exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€â€who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave homosexuals over to shameful lusts. Even homosexual's women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the homosexuals also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. homosexuals committed indecent acts with other homosexuals, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since homosexals did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave homosexuals over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29homosexuals have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. homosexuals are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. homosexuals are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; homosexuals invent ways of doing evil; homosexuals disobey their parents; 31homosexuals are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although homosexuals know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, homosexuals not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Feet,
God created us with the ability to make choices. Satan had his free will and used it to influence Adam and Eve, who chose to disobey. God has allowed us to sin or not sin. He gives us the Holy Spirit to enable us to not sin, if we believe. But we have the option and responsibility to choose to not sin.
The Bible tells us what God considers good and bad, in both the old and new testaments. While you seem to want to test things by a 'spirit', I test things by the Bible. It is a manual of how to live and not live.
I'd say it hinges on the whole bible, not just Romans. The Old Testament defined sexual immorality (the sex acts that God calls wrong) and said to not do the things that are defined as wrong. The New Testament says do not be sexually immoral - it is not just in Romans.
You are the one who said it was possible substitute homosexual for the pronouns. If you want to do it, you try it. I simply said it looks like it fits. I also said that whether you can or not do that does not validate or invalidate any verses - nor does it make the principle invalid or inapplicable.
You can not invalidate or ignore scripture in one area to try to emphasize another scripture - it works together as a cohesive whole.
As I'm sure you know, I use the term 'word of God' to indicate the Bible, which is God breathed. Christ is the 'Word of God'. But the Bible is the 'word of God'.
i think on the issue of homosexuality being a sin, everything rises and falls on romans. please be more specific on which verses one can or cannot transpose the word "homosexual"for the personal pronouns.
if i am not misstating you, your belief is that under the new covenant god puts "garden of edens" type situations in our lives and says do this............. dont do this." you need to eat for sustenance and may eat from any tree, but do not eat from the tree of good and evil." i say garden of eden, because 4000 or whatever years later ther is no clear agreement among believers as to what the sin was about eating it. only they were told not to do it and they did it. and this what you say is the relationship we now have with the father under the new covenant.
"yes i have made the anus an errogenous zone but do not touch it for sexual pleasure."
"yes i have allowed you to have a desire to bond with the same sex , but you are not to express it in any way."
there is no clear agreement among believers who support the above as god's regulations. and you would say that is not important. what is important is that he said it.
you use the "word of god" over and over. i know of only one word of god.................it is christ who was here from the beginning. if he was here from the beginning then whatever was the word, was christ..
there were no specific teachings about homosexuality. the translators attempted to make those such teachings when they decided to say "malebed" meant "homosexual."
at biblegateway i emailed every translator who transposed the word"homosexual" for the word " male bed."
there were 11 of them. they all thanked me for my request. that was a year ago, since then nothing. my request was to please, either send me or tell me where i can find all reference materials that validated the transpositon.
i could not believe that an interjection, this huge, that would SPECIFICALLY single a particular group, not out of spirit evidence but by their inner essence, as sinners, would have no references for having done so.
my only explanation for something this corrupt, was because the earliest translations took place in 19th century england. 1n the 1500's king henry passed a law making acts of sodomy punishable by hanging. it remained on the books for 400 years. this and there is no seperation betwen church and state in england. the queen is head of the church of england. the same way that henry was in the 1500's.
im going to stop here because to go further i need a clearer understanding of what you are saying on the above points.
WBMOORE
thank you so much for your lengthly response. i have read it and we will read several more times. and yes will definitely get back to you. despite of the difference of our understanding i appreciate the sincerity of your words.
Feet,
I wrote:
"It saddens me to see you, and other apparently sincere people who appear to want to follow Christ, blinded.__The New Covenant is not about living in sin - it is about having the Law of God in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). We are to obey God - not love as we define it, but love as GOD defines it. Faith is evidenced in our actions (Heb 11). But if your actions go against what the Bible teaches, then you are not obedient and are walking according to the world - not God."
You responded:
" __"we are saved by grace thru faith, this is not of ourselves, it is a gift of god, it is not by works(actions), lest anyone should boast." EPHESIANS 2:8-9__
"IT KEEPS COMING BACK TO" LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.............................."__
It is not love to cause your brother to sin. It is not love to ignore God or His word.
"YOU GIVE THE APPEARANCE OF IGNORING SOME WORDS LIKE THEY DONT EXIST."
I really hope not. I try to pay attention to every word of God. I have tried to be very clear in this series of posts, to address each and every point you have made.
But if you call yourself a Christian, you can not define love as you want to - as something that God has called sin. That is calling good what God has called evil. If you do not believe the Bible is the word of God, then we really have no need to discuss this any further. If you continue to ignore scripture, you do so at your own peril.
"_JESUS COMMANDS ARE THE THREE COMMANDMENTS OF LOVE. IF LOVING ONES NEIGHBOR AS ONESELF(WHICH YOU WILL NOT DISCUSS) IS THE SUMMATION OF ALL THE LAW, THEN BY DOING IT ONE COVERS ALL THE LAW._"
Yes, Jesus taught to Love God and love your neighbor - this is the summary of the law. All the things the Law teaches to not do shows you how to love God and love your brother. You seem to conveniently be missing the other things Jesus taught. He taught to not sin - and He used the Old Testament to do so.
"_15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world - the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does - comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever."
"___IS HETEROSEXUALITY OF THE WORLD, THEN WHY WOULD HOMOSEXUALITY. THEY ARE MERELY 2 KINDS OF HUMAN BONDING."
Some kinds of sex ARE of the world - God is very clear about that - he calls sex outside of marriage, incest, rape, etc. sin. He also calls homosexual sex sin.
" IF THERE IS SIN IT IS NOT ABOUT THE BONDING BUT THE SPIRIT OF THE RELATIONSHIP. ARE YOU SAYING THAT ALL HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS ARE SHAME BASED AND LUST RIDDEN, AS DESCRIBED IN ROMANS 1. "
God makes it clear men are not to be with men, and women are not to be with women. I have not said all homosexual relationships are shame based, nor lust ridden. What I said was that God calls homosexual attraction and sex to be impurity, degrading passion, unnatural, indecent, depraved, not proper.
"4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him._"
"____EVERYONE WHO SINS COMES AGAINST LOVING ONES NEIGHBOR AS ONESELF, HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY DO THIS?_"
God calls it a sin for a man to lay with a man, or a woman to lay with a woman. If someone tries to get someone else to sin, that is sin. It is an act against one's brother or sister. That is not love, but selfishness.
"__I KNOW OF NO ONE WHO HAS PASSED OVER. WHO WASNT GUILTY OF SOME UNREPENTED SIN. __"
I have known plenty who have and who have not.
I think the key is to be who God wants you to be - to leave sin behind. As we mature, we leave more and more sin behind. But to hold on to something which God has said not to do is to not love God.
"AND THEN TO SAY THAT SOMEONE IS IN SERIOUS THREAT OF LOOSING ONES SALVATION, BECAUSE HE HAS NOT REPENTED FROM A SIN MANUFACTURED A CONDEMNER'S BELIEF SYSTEM IS LUCRIDOUS.___"
But this is a sin manufactured by satan. It is a sin committed by men. It is not based upon a belief system, but upon the Word of God. Now, you are free to reject it. Each of us are. We each have to decide who is God, what He has done, what He has said, and what our response will be. But we will also have consequences for those decisions, good or bad.
"YES, WORK'S BUT MAY BE AN INDICATION OF FAITH. BUT A FAITH THAT IS NOT ACTIVE DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NON EXISTANT, BUT MERELY LATENT. IN OTHER WORDS IT EXISTS IN SOME PART OF THE PSYCHE AND SOUL OF THE BELIEVER "
Scripture speaks of living faith. Scripture speaks of dead faith. It does not speak of latent faith. But it may be you are right, perhaps one may have latent faith. But as James said, "show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works" (James 2:18). If you have no evidence of faith, how do you know it exists at all?
"20First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds."
"__THIS IS NOT ABOUT ACTIVE LIVING OUT OF ONES FAITH, BUT ABOUT THE UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IS AND IS NOT A SIN?_"
It is about living out one's faith in a way that shows one's repentance.
"_2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will isâhis good, pleasing and perfect will._"
"_ABSOLUTELY.......................AND WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO WITH WHETHER HOMOSEXUALITY IS OR IS NOT A SIN."
In this case, it has to do with being transformed by God to be who God wants you to be, not being conformed to what the world says is good. The world would have you believe that homosexual sex is a good thing. God says it is not. Only through the transformation of your mind will you be able to accept as good what God calls good, and bad as what God calls bad.
"YOU TIPTOE THRU AND AROUND MY QUESTIONS LIKE THEY ARE A MINE FIELD"
No. I have answered and answered your questions and addressed your points - over and over. But you refuse to accept what I have said. You refuse to accept what GOD has said. That is your choice, but you do so at your own peril.
But just because you do not like my answers does not mean I am tiptoeing or ignoring your questions. I have been upfront and honest and attempted to address your concerns, questions, points - in what I hope has been a respectful manner.
I wrote:
"__You are correct that we are saved through faith - because of the grace of God. But we are to repent. Then we are supposed to live like it (James 2:14-19; Acts 26:20). We are to be transformed (Romans 12:2). If you continue to live in a life of sin, then you are not a child of God - you are to not love te world or the things of the world, but the things of God (1 Jn 2:3-6, 15-17, 3:4-6)."
"__SURELYTHERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ACKNOWLEDGING SIN IN ONE'S LIFE, AND STANDING ON REGULATION THAT ONE HAS TO REPENT OF A SPECIFIC SIN OR LOOSE ONE'S SALVATION."
I never mentioned losing salvation; whether one can loose one's salvation is a different discussion.
Repent does not mean feel bad. Repent does not mean acknowledge. Repent means change. If one does not change (of sins, from following one's own dictates rather than God, and believing one gets to set the rules rather than God, and that one's efforts are enough, etc.) and turn to God and then have a life that give evidence of that change, then one is not saved to begin with. That's what James was talking about that even the demons believe and shudder, but we know they are not in heaven. We are saved through faith in Christ, but there must be evidence of a changed heart for it to be true faith.
I am mot saying change is easy. But God says it is required. I am not saying change is instantaneous, but it must begin, and continue.
I wrote: "I have shown you where God said the sexually immoral would go to the fiery lake, the second death (Rev 21:7-8)._"
Feet wrote:
"AGAIN WHERE DOES AND HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY BECOME SEXUAL IMMORALITY. IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING THRU INFERENCE OR ARE THERE SPECIFIC WORDS THAT SAY IT. IF THOSE SPECIFIC WORDS EXIST, PLEASE EXPALAIN HOW THEY SAY HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN."
"_Love between two people does not remove the charactization of bad from anything God has defined as bad - homosexual sex, or any other kid. Love does not make bad behavior correct in the eyes of God."
"GOD CREATED EROS , PHILO, AND AGAPE IF ONE EXISTS DOES THAT MEAN THE OTHER DOESNT."
No.
" DOES EACH OF THESE EXIST SOLELY UNTO THEMSELVES AND CANNOT EXIST WITH ANOTHER._"
Of course they can.
"_IF HOMOSEXUALS BOND IN THE SAME SPIRIT AS HETEROSEXUALS,"
It is NOT of the same spirit.
" HOW IS IT ONE BONDING IS ACCEPTABLE AND THE OTHER ISNT. "
Because God said so. It all boils down to accepting God's word or not. If you don't, then you don't. But if you consider the Bible to be the word of God, then you have to accept what He has said.
Homosexual bonding is a counterfeit of what God created - the relationship between a husband and wife we call marriage. This counterfeiting is what Satan does, over and over. He takes what God has created and tries to warp or twist it as well as people's understanding of scripture to confuse people so they do not follow God.
"I have shown you where the spirit of homosexual love goes against the Spirit of God, because it is about selfishness (putting your self, your desires, your emotions, your experience above God and what HE has said concerning homosexual sex), not love."
"HOW CAN BONDING THAT IS OF THE SAME, AS THE SPIRIT OF HETEROSEXUAL BONDING BE SELFISHNESS . "
It is NOT of the same spirit. It might be similar, but it is not the same. The main difference is what God says.
"IS HETEROSEXUAL BONDING SELFISHNESS?_"
Sometimes. There are appropriate and inappropriate bonding. God has said what is acceptable and what is not.
Feet wrote:
".but having been abandoned by friends and family, rejected by society including the church, and subject to assault, incarceration(their attraction carrying the stigma of being illegal), and possible murder for the last 200 years...................consider.....on the flip side it is an indication of what is possible. "
I have no excuse for people's poor behavior, in the past or now. I can only say I sympathize with the plight of those who have suffered. But I also have no excuse for people who choose to disobey God, I can only sympathize (where appropriate).
I wrote:
"Feet, you wrote: _<why do you say that. there is nothing clear about homosexuality being a sin.__Actually, there is. Unfortunately you are blinded by your desire for self-justification. __I have shown you where Christ spoke about not being sexually immoral (Matthew 15:18-20, Mark 7:20-23). Sexual immorality is defined in the Old Testament. The Law was intended to show us our need for Christ, and Christ paid the price for all sins of all who believe who obey Him (Heb 5:9)."
"_(IM USING CAPITOLS TO MAKE IT EASY TO DIFFERENTIATE MY WORDS FROM YOURS)__
HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY BECOME SEXUAL IMMORALITY, HERE AGAIN THE LITMUS TEST IS IF IT COMES AGAINST LOVING ONES NEIGHBOR AS ONESELF...........................PLEASE RESPOND TO THE QUESTION._"
1 Cor 6:17-19
17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
The term for immorality is translated from porneia, which speaks of the various sexual acts prohibited in the old testament - including homosexual sex. So homosexual sex is a sin against one's own body, rather than true love. And when sin involves someone else, it becomes a sin against that other person, rather than love.
I wrote "I have shown you where Paul called homosexual sex sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, indecent, and perversion, and something that ought not to be done (Rom 1)."
"_SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT 18-32 IS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY BEING A SIN."
In part, yes. It describes clearly how God feels about homosexual sex.
" DOES THAT MEAN IF TRANSPOSE HOMOSEXUAL FOR ALL THE PERSONAL PRONOUNS I WILL NOT BE INVALIDATING THE SCRIPTURE. IF NOT ALL, THEN WHERE CAN I DO IT AND NOT IN VALIDATE IT._"
Well, that does not actually validate or invalidate the verses.
However, if you look at the scripture, I think you could substitute 'the homosexual' (or its plural or possessive) for the various pronouns and it seems to fit.
You ignore scripture. All scripture is useful for trainiing. 2 Timothy 3:14-16
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.
To what Scripture do you think Paul was referring? We can see the answer in Paul's own writings - the sacred writings - the Old Tetament.
Galatians 3:8
8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
Paul quotes Genesis 3:7-9 when He called it Scripture. Paul does not ignore the Old Testament, He uses it to point our we are justified by faith. In the same way, He used it to show we should not sin. In Ephesians 4:26, Paul quotes Psalm 4:4:
Ephesians 4:26
BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
We simply can not say we believe something is not a sin because it feels good. We can not say something is the essence of love, when in fact it goes against what God has said.
Feet wrote:
"__so far you have been without any explanation of spirit that would validate it, being a sin.__others explanation is, that it is selfish because, it ignores the law for ones own pleasure, again the reliance on the law.__others say that it is disobedience to the law, again reliance of the law.___others say the laws of who should be allowed to marry validates it, but again reliance on the law.___others say that in ability to procreate......................another law.___others, because of the way they are sexually intimate...................another law___others say that it is because % 's of negative behavior................"
I have shown you using Scripture and logical explanations how it IS selfishness, and that selfishness goes against the love of God. When we place ourselves, our desires, before what God has said, we put ourselves in God's position. This is not love; it is selfishness. Worse, when our sin involves someone else (causes someone else to sin), it is not love, but selfishness.
Much of what Christ taught was based on the old testament. Christ himself said to avoid sexual immorality.
To review, see
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/how-does-romans-teach-homosexuality-is-sin/
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/is-homosexual-sex-considered-to-be-immoral-sex/
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/what-did-christ-say-about-immoral-sex-2/
Feet wrote: "_what i find interesting is, that your main defense, is that homosexuality is a sin, because it is" clearly written" so in scripture. _would you use the same arguement for others of the sin nature such as murder and thievery etc. of course not because, these by their very essence, are obviously against the fruit of the spirit (gal5) and the spirit of christ.(paul also uses the word obvious)(niv) romans1:20 says that god showed his essence of what was of him, and not of him............thru what he created, so that all men are without excuse. "
Actually, I WOULD say that what God calls sin is sin, JUST because HE called it so. God defines sin, not you, not me, not anyone else.
Yes, I would agree that murder and thievery are against the fruit of the spirit. But I also would point out that they are spoken of as sin by God. Everything must be measured by the word of God. We might believe something is bad, but God said it is good - who is right? We might believe something is good, but God says it is bad - who is right? I submit it is always God who is right.
There are societies where it is ok to steal, just not from 'people' (those who belong to that tribe). They believe it is ok to murder, just not someone who is from their tribe. They would think that it is against the spirit of God to kill/steal from someone within their group, but it is ok to victimize someone not of their group. In fact, the Word of God provides the standard - murder and stealing are wrong - regardless of how they feel about it.
Feet wrote: "your reliance on what you consider being written is the same old covenant relationship to the written code. paul says, under christ we no longer have this old relationship to the written code. a relationship that demanded the prohibition a number of some things, as well as an investment in others, that were promoted. __in this kind of relationship, one is led by the law ...................... the written code."
Feet, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. I am not relying upon the old testament Law for justification. I rely upon Christ's saving work. However, just because the price has been paid for our sins does not mean we should do those things that God says not to do, even if it in only in the old testament (and what we are speaking about is spoken of in both old and new testament).
" __in romans , paul says under the new covenat we are now led by and serve of the spirit. the commandments of christ, the three commandments of love. are a clear indication to be led by the spirit, the spirit of love , love that is god. "
You are correct in saying we are not under the law (if we accept Christ as having paid our price for our sin). However, this does not mean the old testament or the rest of new testament is to be ignored. To do so is at your own peril.
I will try one more time.
Feet,
I wrote: 'The New Covenant is not about living in sin - it is about having the Law of God in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). We are to obey God - not love as we define it, but love as GOD defines it. Faith is evidenced in our actions (Heb 11). But if your actions go against what the Bible teaches, then you are not obedient and are walking according to the world - not God. "____
Feet wrote:
"you could put it another way, in regards to the law, not living in sin, means loving ones neighbor as oneself. it covers sins of ommission as well as sins of commission.__because, since loving one's neighbor as oneself is the summation of all the law, then the law is now for making us conscious of whether one is loving ones neighbor as oneself.__and who is our neighbor .................everyone."
I would add that living in sin shows a lack of love for God, the most important summary of the Law and the prophets - Christ described it as the most important Law. And sin that involves another is the opposite of showing love for that person.
"_sadly, for some on the issue of homosexuality the law is used for anything, "
It IS sad. I truly do not see homosexual sin as any worse than any other sin, and in fact 'better' (from my perspective) than some, such as murder or rape. But God still calls it sin.
Feet wrote:
"but this._____Mark 12:31_The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."_Mark 12:33_To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."_James 2:8_If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.______in regards to faith.......................in addition to ephesians 2:8-9, consider__1 Corinthians 13:2_If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.____ephesians 3:16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,____Galatians 5:6_For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The ONLY thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. "
Feet, our entire lives should be based upon love for God and others. But that love will not lead us to do or act or teach something that is contrary to what God has said.
feetlxxx--
You are in error, and your constant refusal to accept rebuke or listen to the word of God makes you, in my opinion, an outright apostate.
When Paul rebuked the Corinthian church because one of their brethren had married his stepmother, he told them to put the person out of their church and not to fellowship with them, but to turn them over to Satan until that person would learn and return in repentance.
As such, I recommend that no one on this forum should engage you any further. By your own admission you are living in a sinful lifestyle, and you are unrepentant about it. You do not even see sin as sin, but instead call it "good". You are in error, and you are not walking in the Spirit, you are preaching a false doctrine and you are denying the Spirit. The spirit you are under is what 1 John calls the spirit of "antichrist".
I urge my other Christian brothers and sisters on this board not to engage with you any further but to ignore what you write and not respond to it anymore.
'The New Covenant is not about living in sin - it is about having the Law of God in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). We are to obey God - not love as we define it, but love as GOD defines it. Faith is evidenced in our actions (Heb 11). But if your actions go against what the Bible teaches, then you are not obedient and are walking according to the world - not God. "
you could put it another way, in regards to the law, not living in sin, means loving ones neighbor as oneself. it covers sins of ommission as well as sins of commission.
because, since loving one's neighbor as oneself is the summation of all the law, then the law is now for making us conscious of whether one is loving ones neighbor as oneself.
and who is our neighbor .................everyone.
sadly, for some on the issue of homosexuality the law is used for anything, but this.
Mark 12:31
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:33
To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.
in regards to faith.......................in addition to ephesians 2:8-9, consider
1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
ephesians 3:16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The ONLY thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
what i find interesting is, that your main defense, is that homosexuality is a sin, because it is" clearly written" so in scripture.
would you use the same arguement for others of the sin nature such as murder and thievery etc. of course not because, these by their very essence, are obviously against the fruit of the spirit (gal5) and the spirit of christ.(paul also uses the word obvious)(niv) romans1:20 says that god showed his essence of what was of him, and not of him............thru what he created, so that all men are without excuse.
your reliance on what you consider being written is the same old covenant relationship to the written code. paul says, under christ we no longer have this old relationship to the written code. a relationship that demanded the prohibition a number of some things, as well as an investment in others, that were promoted.
in this kind of relationship, one is led by the law ...................... the written code.
in romans , paul says under the new covenat we are now led by and serve of the spirit. the commandments of christ, the three commandments of love. are a clear indication to be led by the spirit, the spirit of love , love that is god.
so far you have been without any explanation of spirit that would validate it, being a sin.
others explanation is, that it is selfish because, it ignores the law for ones own pleasure, again the reliance on the law.
others say that it is disobedience to the law, again reliance of the law.
others say the laws of who should be allowed to marry validates it, but again reliance on the law.
others say that in ability to procreate......................another law.
others, because of the way they are sexually intimate...................another law
others say that it is because % 's of negative behavior.................but having been abandoned by friends and family, rejected by society including the church, and subject to assault, incarceration(their attraction carrying the stigma of being illegal), and possible murder for the last 200 years...................consider.....on the flip side it is an indication of what is possible.
Feet, you wrote:
<why do you say that. there is nothing clear about homosexuality being a sin.
Actually, there is. Unfortunately you are blinded by your desire for self-justification.
I have shown you where Christ spoke about not being sexually immoral (Matthew 15:18-20, Mark 7:20-23). Sexual immorality is defined in the Old Testament. The Law was intended to show us our need for Christ, and Christ paid the price for all sins of all who believe who obey Him (Heb 5:9).
(IM USING CAPITOLS TO MAKE IT EASY TO DIFFERENTIATE MY WORDS FROM YOURS)
HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY BECOME SEXUAL IMMORALITY, HERE AGAIN THE LITMUS TEST IS IF IT COMES AGAINST LOVING ONES NEIGHBOR AS ONESELF...........................PLEASE RESPOND TO THE QUESTION.
I have shown you where Paul called homosexual sex sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, indecent, and perversion, and something that ought not to be done (Rom 1).
SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT 18-32 IS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY BEING A SIN. DOES THAT MEAN IF TRANSPOSE HOMOSEXUAL FOR ALL THE PERSONAL PRONOUNS I WILL NOT BE INVALIDATING THE SCRIPTURE. IF NOT ALL, THEN WHERE CAN I DO IT AND NOT IN VALIDATE IT.
I have shown you where God said the sexually immoral would go to the fiery lake, the second death (Rev 21:7-8).
AGAIN WHERE DOES AND HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY BECOME SEXUAL IMMORALITY. IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING THRU INFERENCE OR ARE THERE SPECIFIC WORDS THAT SAY IT. IF THOSE SPECIFIC WORDS EXIST, PLEASE EXPALAIN HOW THEY SAY HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN.
Love between two people does not remove the charactization of bad from anything God has defined as bad - homosexual sex, or any other kid. Love does not make bad behavior correct in the eyes of God.
GOD CREATED EROS , PHILO, AND AGAPE IF ONE EXISTS DOES THAT MEAN THE OTHER DOESNT. DOES EACH OF THESE EXIST SOLELY UNTO THEMSELVES AND CANNOT EXIST WITH ANOTHER.
IF HOMOSEXUALS BOND IN THE SAME SPIRIT AS HETEROSEXUALS, HOW IS IT ONE BONDING IS ACCEPTABLE AND THE OTHER ISNT.
CONTINUED
I have shown you where the spirit of homosexual love goes against the Spirit of God, because it is about selfishness (putting your self, your desires, your emotions, your experience above God and what HE has said concerning homosexual sex), not love.
HOW CAN BONDING THAT IS OF THE SAME, AS THE SPIRIT OF HETEROSEXUAL BONDING BE SELFISHNESS . IS HETEROSEXUAL BONDING SELFISHNESS?
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/how-does-romans-teach-homosexuality-is-sin/ and
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/is-homosexual-sex-considered-to-be-immoral-sex/
I feign nothing. I have love for you, and I ache for your soul and the blindness you suffer.
YOU TIPTOE THRU AND AROUND MY QUESTIONS LIKE THEY ARE A MINE FIELD
You are correct that we are saved through faith - because of the grace of God. But we are to repent. Then we are supposed to live like it (James 2:14-19; Acts 26:20). We are to be transformed (Romans 12:2). If you continue to live in a life of sin, then you are not a child of God - you are to not love te world or the things of the world, but the things of God (1 Jn 2:3-6, 15-17, 3:4-6).
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatâ€â€and shudder.
SURELYTHERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ACKNOWLEDGING SIN IN ONE'S LIFE, AND STANDING ON REGULATION THAT ONE HAS TO REPENT OF A SPECIFIC SIN OR LOOSE ONE'S SALVATION.
I KNOW OF NO ONE WHO HAS PASSED OVER. WHO WASNT GUILTY OF SOME UNREPENTED SIN.
AND THEN TO SAY THAT SOMEONE IS IN SERIOUS THREAT OF LOOSING ONES SALVATION, BECAUSE HE HAS NOT REPENTED FROM A SIN MANUFACTURED A CONDEMNER'S BELIEF SYSTEM IS LUCRIDOUS.
YES, WORK'S BUT MAY BE AN INDICATION OF FAITH. BUT A FAITH THAT IS NOT ACTIVE DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NON EXISTANT, BUT MERELY LATENT. IN OTHER WORDS IT EXISTS IN SOME PART OF THE PSYCHE AND SOUL OF THE BELIEVER
CONTINUED
20First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT ACTIVE LIVING OUT OF ONES FAITH, BUT ABOUT THE UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IS AND IS NOT A SIN?
2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will isâ€â€his good, pleasing and perfect will.
ABSOLUTELY.......................AND WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO WITH WHETHER HOMOSEXUALITY IS OR IS NOT A SIN.
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love[a] is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
JESUS COMMANDS ARE THE THREE COMMANDMENTS OF LOVE. IF LOVING ONES NEIGHBOR AS ONESELF(WHICH YOU WILL NOT DISCUSS) IS THE SUMMATION OF ALL THE LAW, THEN BY DOING IT ONE COVERS ALL THE LAW.
15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the worldâ€â€the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and doesâ€â€comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
IS HETEROSEXUALITY OF THE WORLD, THEN WHY WOULD HOMOSEXUALITY. THEY ARE MERELY 2 KINDS OF HUMAN BONDING. IF THERE IS SIN IT IS NOT ABOUT THE BONDING BUT THE SPIRIT OF THE RELATIONSHIP. ARE YOU SAYING THAT ALL HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS ARE SHAME BASED AND LUST RIDDEN, AS DESCRIBED IN ROMANS 1.
CONTINUED
4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
EVERYONE WHO SINS COMES AGAINST LOVING ONES NEIGHBOR AS ONESELF, HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY DO THIS?
It saddens me to see you, and other apparently sincere people who appear to want to follow Christ, blinded.
The New Covenant is not about living in sin - it is about having the Law of God in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). We are to obey God - not love as we define it, but love as GOD defines it. Faith is evidenced in our actions (Heb 11). But if your actions go against what the Bible teaches, then you are not obedient and are walking according to the world - not God.
"we are saved by grace thru faith, this is not of ourselves, it is a gift of god, it is not by works(actions), lest anyone should boast." EPHESIANS 2:8-9
IT KEEPS COMING BACK TO" LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.............................."
YOU GIVE THE APPEARANCE OF IGNORING SOME WORDS LIKE THEY DONT EXIST.
Feet,
Because I love Christ and I know what he has done for all who believe, I share the love of Christ with almost everyone I come into contact with, in one way or another, at some time or another. I want for you what Christ wants for you - eternal life.
You confuse the fact that the unrepentance in your heart, the sin you cling to, are what pains the love of God in me. My tears for you are not based on remorse. They are from love and based upon the fact that Scripture says people who practice immoral sex will get the second death.
I pray your eyes will be opened and your heart will repent (rather than be hardened as it currently seems it is) and you will truly receive the freedom Christ has for you through faith in His saving work, given by grace as a gift. But if you truly have that, you will show it in your life, leaving sins behind.
Perhaps you have it, and this is just one sin you have not left behind. I do not know. I only know that you cling to your sin, rather than to what God has done, said, and requires. Scripture is quite clear that if you love Him, you will obey Him, and He was quite clear that homosexual sex is a sin that will prevent people from entering heaven.
Nathan, in 1 and 2 Samuel, never condemned heterosexuality. He condemned sin. But David repented when he saw what He had done. And God cleansed him and forgave him.
But we need repentance to be forgiven.
Feet,
I'm not trying to offer guilt. I'm trying to shine light. Christ loves you. You know this. But Christ hates sin. He offers freedom from sin. Christ does not want to condemn us, He wants to free us. With the freedom we have from the need to sin, through faith in Christ, we can live lives free from sin, dedicated to Christ.
Feet, you wrote:
<why do you say that. there is nothing clear about homosexuality being a sin.
Actually, there is. Unfortunately you are blinded by your desire for self-justification.
I have shown you where Christ spoke about not being sexually immoral (Matthew 15:18-20, Mark 7:20-23). Sexual immorality is defined in the Old Testament. The Law was intended to show us our need for Christ, and Christ paid the price for all sins of all who believe who obey Him (Heb 5:9).
I have shown you where Paul called homosexual sex sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, indecent, and perversion, and something that ought not to be done (Rom 1).
I have shown you where God said the sexually immoral would go to the fiery lake, the second death (Rev 21:7-8).
Love between two people does not remove the charactization of bad from anything God has defined as bad - homosexual sex, or any other kid. Love does not make bad behavior correct in the eyes of God.
I have shown you where the spirit of homosexual love goes against the Spirit of God, because it is about selfishness (putting your self, your desires, your emotions, your experience above God and what HE has said concerning homosexual sex), not love.
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/how-does-romans-teach-homosexuality-is-sin/ and
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/is-homosexual-sex-considered-to-be-immoral-sex/
I feign nothing. I have love for you, and I ache for your soul and the blindness you suffer.
You are correct that we are saved through faith - because of the grace of God. But we are to repent. Then we are supposed to live like it (James 2:14-19; Acts 26:20). We are to be transformed (Romans 12:2). If you continue to live in a life of sin, then you are not a child of God - you are to not love te world or the things of the world, but the things of God (1 Jn 2:3-6, 15-17, 3:4-6).
It saddens me to see you, and other apparently sincere people who appear to want to follow Christ, blinded.
The New Covenant is not about living in sin - it is about having the Law of God in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). We are to obey God - not love as we define it, but love as GOD defines it. Faith is evidenced in our actions (Heb 11). But if your actions go against what the Bible teaches, then you are not obedient and are walking according to the world - not God.
I have read and read Scripture concerning being led by the Holy Spirit. I firmly believe in the power of God and His leading and being guided by the Holy Spirit.
However, no where in Scripture does it say He will lead you into sin, yet Scripture is clear that homosexual sex is a sin. Christ was clear we should avoid immoral sex. Christ was clear that we should sin no more. You can't ignore parts of Scripture that do not support your position and warp the understanding of other texts to try to build a Scriptural position when one does not exist.
<why do you say that. there is nothing clear about homosexuality being a sin.
< knowing that not all prohibitions in lev of themselves are sins, show me where malebed means homosexual. show me how homosexualaity comes against loving your neighbor as yourself. you look at romans 1 and say that it says that homosexuality is a sin. what ever sins were committed in the midst of same sex relations no more condemns homosexuality than the sexual sins of 1 and 2 samuel condemn heterosexuality
< why do you feign fellowship with me and them absolutely ignore my questions and comments? you give the appearance in being interested only in position.
And yet you choose to ignore what Scripture says concerning homosexual sex and try to wrap yourself up with the verses that talk about love. It is love that makes me sad for you and cry for you. It is love that makes me pray for you. It is not love to justify sin by trying to call it love.
<i ignore nothing and i have answered all your questions
CONTINUED
CONTINUED
Please do not miss the verses which speak about love and obedience, saying that if you don't obey Christ then you don't love Christ. Christ was quite clear concerning immoral sex. He was quite clear about what happens to those who commit immoral acts.
<if we sin it is grace thru faith in christ that saves us not works of repentance.
< that is why the cross. works dont save us. surely you must know that the majority of sacrifices in lev was for unknown sin. do you feel you have achieved a knowledge of your own sin that is far beyond that of the isrealites?
<here is where you miss it. you see christ's teachings as being about a new set of regulations that are either to supplant the laws of the old covenant or reenforce them. instead his teaching was about life , healing and wholeness. you seem burdened with regret for both yourself and others. consider reading 2cor7:7-10 that its not guilt but godly sadness that brings us to repentence that leads to salvation.........a pentance that is without regret. consider that the regret that you are carrying may indicate that your leading is not from the holy spirit.
Revelation 21:7-8
7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsâ??their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
< your offering give the appearance of being a cup of guilt that is loaded with regret.
Feet,
I have read and read Scripture concerning being led by the Holy Spirit. I firmly believe in the power of God and His leading and being guided by the Holy Spirit.
However, no where in Scripture does it say He will lead you into sin, yet Scripture is clear that homosexual sex is a sin. Christ was clear we should avoid immoral sex. Christ was clear that we should sin no more. You can't ignore parts of Scripture that do not support your position and warp the understanding of other texts to try to build a Scriptural position when one does not exist.
And yet you choose to ignore what Scripture says concerning homosexual sex and try to wrap yourself up with the verses that talk about love. It is love that makes me sad for you and cry for you. It is love that makes me pray for you. It is not love to justify sin by trying to call it love.
Please do not miss the verses which speak about love and obedience, saying that if you don't obey Christ then you don't love Christ. Christ was quite clear concerning immoral sex. He was quite clear about what happens to those who commit immoral acts.
Revelation 21:7-8
7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsâ€â€their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
my heart goes out to your sorrow, but my understanding is based on love and fellowship. the love of loving ones neighbor as oneself and the fellowship of fellowship in christ.
feet,
You are so deceived. I feel sorry for you - to the point of tears. I pray God will open your eyes and heart to His truth concerning your sins so you will repent and turn to God through faith in Christ.
It is love for God and from God for you that has made me continue to try to break through to you. I truly pray for your body, mind, and soul.
I COULDNT HAVE SAID IT BETTER. THANK YOU FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING.
Peter's Confession of Christ
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[b] the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
Where do people get the idea the Catholic Church was in the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd century? This is neither historical or Biblical. Matt 16:15-19 is not proof that Peter was the "rock" Christ built His church upon, but rather Peter's answer to Christ's question "But whom say ye that I am?" vs 16: "THOU ART CHRIST, SON OF THE LIVING GOD!" see also 1 Cor. 10:4..."and that Rock was Christ"!
msnchris70 (Chris)
Majority doesn't make right Chris.
There was heresy in the early Church (1 Cor 11:19, Gal 5;20, 2 Peter 2:1).
Infantile baptism is one of those heresies.
You said:
1. Because in the Bible whole households including children were baptised.
2. All have original sin, and baptism washes away this sin for infants and all people. Bible based reason.
3. If we are truly saved by Grace, then you would make Faith in Christ a work for the infant and since works do not save you but only Grace, then you baptise infants. At the age of reason a child or adult must affirm their baptismal vow and belief in Christ.
4. You only become a part of the Church by being Baptised, so without a Child being baptised they are not a disciple of Christ and not a member of the Body.
5. In baptism we are born again with water and spirit. This is open to all irregardless of age.
6. In baptism we are united with Christ death and resurrection, and infants must be included.
According to your belief, a lost person, without making a decision for Jesus, can be saved based on the belief of someone else. This is not scriptural. (John 1;12-13)
According to your belief, an infant, can be saved if the parent(s) choose that for them. Again, this is not scriptural. (John 1:12-13)
According to your belief, a baby can have original sin washed away from him through baptism. This is not scriptural because we alway have to deal with and choose between our sin nature and our new nature if we are born-again by the spirit of God with the evidence of a changed life.(Romans 6)
continued
Chris
continued
The Church, which is the body of Christ (Col 1:18), consists of all people who have been born-again by the spirit of God through the regeneration of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of a changed life(Titus 3:5). Baptism has nothing to do with it. Baptism is an act of obedience. Anyone can be baptised. Anyone can say they believe what ever they are required to confess. All that will not save them.
The only way one can be saved is if God the Father draws the sinner to Jesus (JOhn 6:44), convicts his heart that he is a sinner, needs a Savior, and that Savior is Jesus Christ (John 16:8-11). Then if the sinner choose to accept what Jesus has done for him from his heart, turns to God in prayer, and ask Jesus to save him (Romans 10:9-10,13) then he becomes saved or born again of the spirit of God and Jesus baptizes him into His body through the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13.
Baptism (water baptism done by man) will not save you. If that were true, then the repentant thief on the cross who Jesus granted eternal life to would have never been saved. But he was because he believed from his heart on Jesus Christ and looked to Him alone for salvation.(Luke 23:40-43).
You can say whatever people want you to say, you can do whatever people want you to do but that will not save you. Baptizing an infant for salvation, having him as an older child or adult affirm his baptizmal vows and belief in Christ will not save him.
If God isn't dealing with your about being a sinner and in need of a Savior, and that Savior is His Son the Lord Jesus Christ then you cannot be saved by the spirit of God.If you are not saved by the spirit of God then being baptized is a waste of time. All you have done is get wet.
A person does not become a child of God because he was born into a Christian family (by blood), he decided on his own to be saved without God convicting his heart of his need for salvation (will of the flesh), or his parent(s) decided for him when he was an infant (will of man). A person becomes s child of God by being born-again by the Spirit of God when God decides (will of God). (John 1:12-13). When God decides it is time for you to make a decision for Jesus He will move on you by drawing you to Jesus, He will convict your heart of your need for a Savior and He will grant you grace to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord.
why do you approach the new covenant thru legalisims and not thru understandings of the spirit?
1john's emphasis on love and fellowship
roman's emphasis of being led by and serving of the spirit.
feetxxxl
If you are led by the Spirit of God you will not carry out the desires of the flesh.
<why are their( homosexual)desires, desires of the flesh, because of witness?............no because of a belief that it is clearly written in scripture. that is being led by the law. would you say the same about murder, that the reason it is a sin because it is clearly written in scripture?...........no the essence of murder in itself is self explanatory( as said by paul in galations 5). you dont allude to cain and able. you dont need to because the essence of murder is self explanantory............................that is being led by the spirit.
<to refer to scripture as the basis for sin is an old testament relationship to the written code, and embraces the prohibitipons about eating, the sabbath(it is only just recently the blue laws were suspended, and that was because of need and not design), and sexual intimacy
.( whydo you exclude the promotion of ethnic slavery as not part of the moral law? slavery of caucasians was outlawed in 300ad. ethnic slavery was supported and affirmed by pope innocent the 8th, and not outlawed until the 19th century. the concept of african slavery was originally put forth by a jessuit priest in south america to ease the suffering of the enslaved indios. the whole concept of enslavement was considered virtuous because it was done to pagans. is that not a moral infringement)
The deeds of the flesh include fornication, inordinate affection, uncleanness, lying, stealing, idolatry, etc.
>here again fornication, inordinate affection, uncleaness are not declared of the sin nature thru witness, but because to some they appear to be clearly written about in scripture.
You cannot claim to walk in the Spirit and live in sexual immorality
>if i walk in the spirit it is obviated by the fruit of the spirit that is seen in my life. and that understanding does not come from an armchair cognition, but from personnal witness. in other words thru fellowship.
The love in 1 John is agape love not eros love. Agape love is an action that is applied in a relationship with someone whether you like the person or not, whether the person does good to you or not, etc. Agape love does not involve sexual passions.
>all three were created by god, philos is initiated thru friendship, eros thru physical attraction, and agape thru association with god.
CONTINUED
are you saying thereis no agape love in marriage, because of sexual attraction between pardners. if for instance one pardner is arroused by something the other is wearing or not wearing,and this culminates in intercourse does that mean there is no agape love in the relationship. is there another law that says that married believers are no to allow themselves to be arroused by their married pardners.
Sexual passions are refered to as eros love. Sexual pleasures are to be experienced between one man and one woman in a marriage relationship. God created sex. He intended for it to be expressed between one man and one woman in marrigae relationship. To engage in it in any other way is a sin. That includes adultery, sex before marriage (fornication), and homosexuality. Other sexual pleasures that are sinful are bestiality, pornography, masturbation, passionate kissing between non-married hetrosexuals, lust, etc.
>gay couples in my church marry. and why is it a sin? out of witness? of course not. those that are anti homosexual are distant and disconnected from homosexuals. they have no fellowship................consequently they have no witness. so what is their understanding? personnal perceptions of what they think the bible says. that is an old covenant relationship to the written code.
>i have asked how is the spirt of homosexuality against the loving ones neighbor as oneself, the summation of all the law under the old covenant, it is a commandment that instructs the leading by and the serving of the spirit. anything that is a sin under the new covenant comes against this LEADING OF THE SPIRIT. yet, no one can explain how it does, except to say it is disobediant of the regulation. this is of the old covenant.
jesus did not say you will know them if they keep scriptural regulations, but by their fruit.
Homosexual relations involve some form of sexual pleasures like passionate kissing and hugging, sexual relations, etc. These homosexual behaviors as well as homosexual lust are an abomination. Even the agape love
between homos is corrupted because it is centered in a desire for sexual intimacy. Homosexuality is a deed of the flesh and any Christian who practices it is not walking in the Spirit.
>this is an arm chair cognition....................it involves no fellowship, therefore involves no witness, is without love, so is nothing.
CONTINUED
CONTINUED
feetlxxx--
If you think 1 John's talk of love and fellowship equates to acceptance of anal sodomy between two men, then you are more lost than you will ever know. What a demented, twisted, perversion of God's word if you think that anything in 1 John or Romans somehow means God approves of a repulsive, filthy sexual deviancy. My word, my word, my word...
>so heterosexuals who practice some form of anal stimulation or penetration that leads to orgasm are perversion of god's word. i know of no where in scripture where this behavior is against the spirit of christ.
>if it is acceptable for heterosexuals then it is for homosexuals also. it is your understanding that god created an errogenus zone(wikipedia) in our bodies that we are not suppose to utilize. how does this form of sexual expression come against the spirit of christ and loving ones neighbor as oneself.
> here again the response is that it disobeys regulation.................here again, .the same , old covenant relationship to the law.
CONTINUED
Scripture is clear that Christians are to live godly in Christ Jesus. A moral sin in the OT is still a moral sin in the new. If you are a child of God, then God will deal with you about repenting from active sin in your life. If He doesn't, then most likely your are not one of His, which means, you are lost.
God purging a believer of sin in his/her life has nothing to do with legalism but has everything to do with Him purifying unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
>where in the gospels did christ, under whom are all things, say we are to still have the old realationship to regulation. if we cling to regulation, then how are we to be led by the spirit.
>does not the leading by 2 masters create the same situation of loving one and despising the other. would that not be why there is no acknowledgement or trusting of the spirt by those who believe homosexuality is a sin?
>is there any understqnding of what it means to be led by, and serve of the spirit?.
those who are led by the spirit see:
(1) homosexuals bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals: mutual love, respect, trust, attraction for a committed life together.
(2) practicing homosexuals are not found wanting, compared to practicing heterosexuals, in any sector of society. they are not less a brother, friend, doctor, counselor, pastor, neighbor, administrator,etc.
(3) that bonded homosexual rellationships have exhibited devoted relationships that rival heterosexual bonded relationships.
(4) commited homosexual couples produce loving nurturing homes equal to those of heterosexual married couples.for raising children. they have opened their homes for adoption of abandoned rejected children from heterosexual unions.
(5) that same sex attraction is nothing more than same sex attraction, and that anything else negative or positive in that person's life is about them not their orientation........................., the same as it is with heterosexuality
those who are led by the law care nothing of the above but only about their understanding of the regulation, and the appearance of anything that would support it.
those who are led by the spirit came to this understanding thru love and fellowship.
those who are led by the law, withhold fellowship for fear that it may challenge their theology.
Oh yeah, and 80% of Christianity agrees with me STar2 on Baptism and only a small minority agrees with you. Hmmmm.
Isn't it interesting the newer the Christian sect is the farther they are from the Apostolic faith and what Jesus Christ taught? You interpretations will forever be limited.
Since we are the first Christians historically, it makes perfect sense for Catholic to post.
Also, isn't it as plain as day when STAR2 and her other fundamentalists can't tie the Scriptures with what actually happened. Infants have always been baptised from the very beginning. I guess when your Church was only founded relatively a few years ago I am not suprised how your interpretation can be different.
You see, my church was there when infants were baptized in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries. Historical reference tells us exactly without error what those Scriptures meant and how they were lived out. Not one writing has ever been found challenging the baptising of Infants in the first 1700 years of Christianity.
Only recently have some sects who claim to be Christian not baptize infants.
Topekan Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:52 am msnchris70,
"I think it is funny that Christianpost would have a catholic ever comment on everything. Catholics are false Christians who ignore the Word of God in favor of their traditions, which is exactly what Jesus rebuked the Pharaisees for doing. If I remember correctly, the Roman Catholic Church hunted down protestants for their biblical view of Christianity."
REPLY: IF IT WERE NOT FOR THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, YOU WOULD NOT EVEN HAVE A BIBLE TO BE THUMPING OVER OTHER PEOPLES HEADS!!!!!!!
Star2, well said my brethren,well said!! May the LORD bless you for your adherence and proclamation of HIS truth.
feetxxxl, you should be ashamed of yourself and your false doctrine, no more will I "throw pearls" before swine,repent,repent,repent, for the time is near, IN JESUS NAME
msnchris70,
I think it is funny that Christianpost would have a catholic ever comment on everything. Catholics are false Christians who ignore the Word of God in favor of their traditions, which is exactly what Jesus rebuked the Pharaisees for doing. If I remember correctly, the Roman Catholic Church hunted down protestants for their biblical view of Christianity.
msnchris70
Part 1
Nowhere in scripture will you find a person being baptized that has not first decided to repent and obey God.
An infant or a child who does not know the difference between right and wrong cannot make such a decision. No adult can make that decision for them either. Baptizism will not save the infant because it is merely an act of obedience to God after one believes and receives Jesus.
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
It is clear from these verses that to become a child of God one must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. A person does not and can not become a child of God because he was born into a Christian family (born of blood), or that he decided apart from God that it would be a good thing (will of the flesh) or that someone else, like his parents, decided for him (will of man).
msnchris70
Part 2
When the mother/parents brought their children to Jesus all He did was bless the children (Mark 10:16). His teaching was that if we as adults or older children do not humble ourselves as a little child then we cannot be saved.
Little children are trusting and they believe what you say without questioning you. For example, if you have a child on a table and you tell him to jump and you will catch him, then he will believe you and jump because he trusts you. That is how we are to be with what the Lord says. If the Lord says something, we don't question it, we act on it because we believe Him in what He says and we trust Him to keep His Word.
Jesus never implied that a young child could be saved without God moving on him for salvation. If He did, then that would have violated His other teachings.
Scripture indicated that if an infant or a young child who does not know the difference between right and wrong dies then he is protected from God's judgment and they go to Heaven. King David's baby that he had from an adulterous affair that died is an example of an infant that went to Heaven(1 Sam 12:23).
msnchris70
Part 3
But when the child is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong then he is old enough to know that God is real, that he is a sinner in need of a Savior, and that Savior is Jesus Christ. He is old enough to make a decision for Jesus by accepting what Jesus did for him, that Jesus died on the cross to pay for his sins so he could be forgiven and have eternal life.
As with an older child or an adult so is with a younger child who knows the difference between right and wrong, a sinner's salvation experience is not legitamite unless God the Father draws the sinner to Jesus. A person can becomes a child of God when he is drawn to Jesus by the will of God (John 6:44). When God draws a person to Jesus He is going to convict that person's heart that he is a sinner, in need of a Savior, and that Savior is Jesus Christ. If that person chooses to receive Jesus as his savior and calls upon Him with his mouth in prayer for salvation then he will be saved.
Romans 10:9-10,13
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness: and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Once a person believes from his heart and calls on the name of the Lord for salvation then the person is to be baptized. Baptizism is an act that God wants us to do and we do it as an act of obedience. Obeying God in what He wants you to do produces a clear conscious before God. Disobedience does not.
msnchris70
Part 4
In regard to the Philipian jailor and his household being saved (Acts 16:30-34): The entire household was not saved because the father was saved, they were all saved because they all believe the gospel that Paul and Silas preached unto them (Acts 16:32). After they all believed then they were all baptized (Acts 16:33).
Scripture is very plain that each individual must make his/her own decision to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord after the Lord convicts their heart. The teachings of scripture in one area cannot contradict the teaching in another area. So with Lydia's household, they all believed after they heard the gospel much like the Philipian jailor's household did. They didn't all get saved because Lydia got saved.
Baptizing an infant will not impart salvation to that infant. If that child should die before he is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong then he will go to Heaven (1 Sam 12:23). To do so shows a lack of faith in God.
Infantile baptizism also will not purge or remove original sin from a child's life. We are all born into sin. We all have a sin nature that we must deal with until the day we die. Baptizism does not remove our sin nature from us.
When we become born again by the Spirit of God through the regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5) we are given a new nature created after God's nature in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24). We can decide to live in obedience to our new nature which results in righteousness unto holiness, or we can choose to obey our sin nature which results in death (Romans 6:16,19).
Some problems with my computer so please excuse some of the typo's below.
Peace.
But, one might ask, does the Bible ever say that infants or young children can be baptized? The indications are clear. In the New Testament we read that Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and that "She was baptized, with her household" (Acts 16:15). The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that "the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family" (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, "I did baptize also the household of Stephanas" (1 Cor. 1:16).
In all these cases, whole households or families were baptized. This means more than just the spouse; the children too were included. If the text of Acts referred simply to the Philippian jailer and his wife, then we would read that "he and his wife were baptized," but we do not. Thus his children must have been baptized as well. The same applies to the other cases of household baptism in Scripture. None of the Fathers or councils of the Church was claiming that the practice was contrary to Scripture or tradition. They agreed that the practice of baptizing infants was the customary and appropriate practice since the days of the early Church; the only uncertainty seemed to be whenâ€â€exactlyâ€â€an infant should be baptized. Further evidence that infant baptism was the accepted practice in the early Church is the fact that if infant baptism had been opposed to the religious practices of the first believers, why do we have no record of early Christian writers condemning it?
But Fundamentalists try to ignore the historical writings from the early Church which clearly indicate the legitimacy of infant baptism. They attempt to sidestep appeals to history by saying baptism requires faith and, since children are incapable of having faith, they cannot be baptized. It is true that Christ prescribed instruction and actual faith for adult converts (Matt. 28:19–20), but his general law on the necessity of baptism (John 3:5) puts no restriction on the subjects of baptism. Although infants are included in the law he establishes, requirements of that law that are impossible to meet because of their age are not applicable to them. They cannot be expected to be instructed and have faith when they are incapable of receiving instruction or manifesting faith. The same was true of circumcision; faith in the Lord was necessary for an adult convert to receive it, but it was not necessary for the children of believers. www.catholic.com
Baptism cont'd.
But the historic Christian Church has always held that Christ’s law applies to infants as well as adults, for Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of belonging to his kingdom. He asserted such even for children: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:14). More detail is given in Luke’s account of this event, which reads: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16). Fundamentalists conclude the passage refers only to children old enough to walk, and, presumably, capable of sinning. But the text in Luke 18:15 says, "Now they were bringing even infants to him" (Greek, Prosepheron de auto kai ta brepha). The Greek word brepha means "infants"â€â€children who are quite unable to approach Christ on their own and who could not possibly make a conscious decision to "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior." Furthermore, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.
C'mon guys feetxxx is a heretic and if he wants to manipulate scripture to his own destruction, then you both have done enough to try and hold him accountable. Let him go to his true master. Homosexuals who are active in their perverted desires will not inherit the Kingdom of God...end of subject.
On baptism:
Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39). We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a
connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
feetlxxx--
If you think 1 John's talk of love and fellowship equates to acceptance of anal sodomy between two men, then you are more lost than you will ever know. What a demented, twisted, perversion of God's word if you think that anything in 1 John or Romans somehow means God approves of a repulsive, filthy sexual deviancy. My word, my word, my word...
feetxxxl
If you are led by the Spirit of God you will not carry out the desires of the flesh.
The deeds of the flesh include fornication, inordinate affection, uncleanness, lying, stealing, idolatry, etc.
You cannot claim to walk in the Spirit and live in sexual immorality.
The love in 1 John is agape love not eros love. Agape love is an action that is applied in a relationship with someone whether you like the person or not, whether the person does good to you or not, etc. Agape love does not involve sexual passions.
Sexual passions are refered to as eros love. Sexual pleasures are to be experienced between one man and one woman in a marriage relationship. God created sex. He intended for it to be expressed between one man and one woman in marrigae relationship. To engage in it in any other way is a sin. That includes adultery, sex before marriage (fornication), and homosexuality. Other sexual pleasures that are sinful are bestiality, pornography, masturbation, passionate kissing between non-married hetrosexuals, lust, etc.
Homosexual relations involve some form of sexual pleasures like passionate kissing and hugging, sexual relations, etc. These homosexual behaviors as well as homosexual lust are an abomination. Even the agape love between homos is corrupted because it is centered in a desire for sexual intimacy. Homosexuality is a deed of the flesh and any Christian who practices it is not walking in the Spirit.
Scripture is clear that Christians are to live godly in Christ Jesus. A moral sin in the OT is still a moral sin in the new. If you are a child of God, then God will deal with you about repenting from active sin in your life. If He doesn't, then most likely your are not one of His, which means, you are lost.
God purging a believer of sin in his/her life has nothing to do with legalism but has everything to do with Him purifying unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
why do you approach the new covenant thru legalisims and not thru understandings of the spirit?
1john's emphasis on love and fellowship
roman's emphasis of being led by and serving of the spirit.
feetxxxl - I have addressed your points as well as many conservative Christians have.You refuse to hear. Are you so blind that you really don't get it or are you just playing a game, pushing the buttons of conservative Christians trying to get some reaction from them for your pleasure?
Moral sin in the OT is the same as moral sin in the NT. God expects believers to deny ungodliness and wordly lust. Homosexuality is a sin steeped in wordly lusts. You cannot live in that sin and still expect to be right with God.
You say that you are liberal, and I believe it, but that you are attracted to conservative Churches. Why? Is it because deep down in your heart you want to be told that you are wrong and need to repent? Is it because deep down in your heart you really want that for yourself, conservative Christianity? Is it because deep down in your heart you know that conservative Christianity is what truth is and you long for it?
Repent feetxxxl. The game you are playing or the road you are traveling on will lead you away from God and possibly eternal damnation not toward Him and eternal life.
you addressed my comment without addressing my points
if you chose not to confront my points then consider confronting my understanding thru hebrews 8 and romans7:5-7
feetxxxl
Your opinion doesn't align itself with the word of God.
Titus 3:11-14
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Levitus 18:22, 20:13 says that homosexual relations is an abomination and 1 Cor 6:9-10 says all that practice it shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
The God of the OT is the same God of the NT and He will be same God that you will appear before on judgment day (Heb 13:8). God says that homosexuality is a sin. Die in that sin and you will perish.
If you are living in sin then you are not living godly in Chirst Jesus. If you are comfortable in your sin and God is not dealing with you to repent then you are none of His.
Practicing homosexuals have not embraced the new covenant in Christ. They don't have a foot in the old covenant either. They are just thumbing their noses in the face of God. They have best take to heart the following:
Jude 7 - "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
If you think God looks favorably upon practicing homosexuals who are in a committed loving relationship then you are deceived. You have no understanding of the Word of God, and you are possibly void of the Holy Ghost altogether which means that your are lost.
the homosexuality is not a sin(practicing homosexuals) side refuses to stop being led by the spirit. and the homosexuality is a sin side refuses to abandon traditional teaching.
of course they will have to split up.
one is attempting to fully embrace the new covenant of christ, while the other prefers to keep one foot fully planted in the old covenant.
and look.............. i didnt use one label!
msnchris70 - I'll go into my reasons why later.
msnchris70 - There is no scriptural basis for what you say. But you are entitled to believe what you want.
The majority of Protestants do Baptise Infants for the following reasons.
1. Because in the Bible whole households including children were baptised.
2. All have original sin, and baptism washes away this sin for infants and all people. Bible based reason.
3. If we are truly saved by Grace, then you would make Faith in Christ a work for the infant and since works do not save you but only Grace, then you baptise infants. At the age of reason a child or adult must affirm their baptismal vow and belief in Christ.
4. You only become a part of the Church by being Baptised, so without a Child being baptised they are not a disciple of Christ and not a member of the Body.
5. In baptism we are born again with water and spirit. This is open to all irregardless of age.
6. In baptism we are united with Christ death and resurrection, and infants must be included.
Not baptizing infants is not only unbiblical but it is unhistorical. Baptizing only adults or children at the age of reason is new version of Christianity and does not hold to historical and biblical Christianity.
msnchris70
Jesus speaking,
Mark 16:16 - "He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Philip and Ethiopian Eunuch - Acts 8:26-39
Acts 8:35-38
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be BAPTIZED?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch: and he BAPTIZED him.
After a person believes, from his heart, on the Lord Jesus Christ, then he is to be BAPTIZED.
The "Stong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible"(KJV) says that the Greek word for BAPTIZED in the verses mentioned above is 'baptizo'.
BAPTIZED: Greek word (907) - baptizo: to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet)
To be scripturally baptized one needs to be TOTALLY SUBMERGED IN WATER after he has come to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord from his heart.
Sprinkling of water is not scriptural baptizism. Baptizing a baby for salvation is not scriptural. Any Church that does so is not scriptural in its theology nor its practice.
Any person who says he believes on Jesus from his head and not from heart conviction is not saved. His baptizism means nothing. All he did was get wet.
john14-6 said it all...
The Episcopal Church in America is in full blown apostasy, and it it lost. Other mainstream denominations are charging like lemmings for the cliff, right behind them: the United Methodists, ELCA, PCUSA, and various sundry others.
The line is quite rapidly being drawn in the sand. You either stand on Biblical truth and sound doctrine, reject the multicultural, PC, infestation of the body of Christ...
Or you become apostate and fall, listening to the world, with your itching ears, rejecting sound doctrine, exchanging the truth for a lie and the Word of God for pottage.
The Anglican Communion is broken, and it is done. The conservatives must let the apostates go their separate ways. As I said to msnchris70 on another thread related to this same issue - very soon all conservative, Bible believing Christians who accept sound doctrine and God's truth, will be forced to cross the Tiber or retreat into isolated, individual non-denominational churches and congregations (maybe even house churches, just as in the first century).
The secular-left is on the march, they are attacking the body of Christ, and attempting to pick away at the Church from within. The way things are going, we will all be living in catacombs again within the next hundred years.
Msnchris70 - And by the way: Protestant hunted down anabaptists, not baptists. This is a blight on our name.
The anabaptists are part of the age old charismatic christian tradition, starting with Simon Magus in 150 AD. The baptists were and are certainly not part of this tradition!
msnchris70 - Perhaps you should explain what you mean by 'hyper Protestants'. Is it the same as 'hyper Calvinists'? (Also called 5 point Calvinists). These believers, including myself, believe that we are saved by grace alone (sola gratia. They accept the doctrine of predestination. Are such believers not 'mainline Protestants'? Wow!
And by the way: As a reformed Christian, I believe in covenant baptism, including the children of the believers. But please take note that I highly value dr Mohler's many Biblically sound insights, and his courage to blow the trumpet so clearly in these troubled times!
Alternatively, this same person matures in the Faith and in an adult like manner gains the ability to accept their own shortcomings. The inherent consistency of the co group serves as a supportive foundation upon which to further their own spiritual strength. In this way the co group flourishes and increases.
Evidence of this is in the fact that the lr parts of the Anglican Communion are in rapid decline, while at the same time the co parts are in rapid growth. Whether the two groups remain together, or separate, the eventual outcome will be the same. Although the lr group currently has the historical places of power, and the greatest amount of earthly wealth, its influence within the Anglican Communion is already diminishing, and it has already begun to sell off its capital assets in order to finance its current operating expenditures. The co group is already realizing its increasing importance and has established a more permanent source of resources (that go far beyond money, buildings and land). Eventually the lr group will shrink to the point of no longer being relevant, while the co group will grow to the point of being in complete control.
The co claim to be open to all people as they follow the example of Jesus Christ who did not refuse anyone who was willing to give up their sinful ways. The challenge facing the co is that it is very difficult to tell a sinner that they are sinning (just as it is difficult to tell an alcoholic that they have a drinking problem) without coming across as being judgmental and critical. What makes this challenge even more difficult is the co people must acknowledge their own sins. So how does anyone do this without appearing to be a hypocrite?
Ironically, hypocrisy is the fatal flaw for the lr group. For just as they claim to be Christians, they paint themselves into a corner. Christians, by definition proclaim Jesus Christ to be the Divine Son of God (as part of the Holy Trinity of Father Son and Holy Ghost) and thus is God. In Matthew 19:4-6, Jesus states that because God made them male and female, a man shall be united to his wife and the two shall become one. This clearly indicates, straight from Jesus Christ (and therefore straight from God) that marriage is a Holy Union of one man and one woman. How can anyone, be they lr or co, claim to be Christian and at the same time ignore this passage? This is just one example of the hypocrisy that the lr are afflicted with, and it is this hypocrisy that will be the ultimate demise of the lr group. For as a person grows and becomes more knowledgeable in the Faith, the person sees the inconsistency of the lr approach, and becomes disenfranchised. In this way the lr group wanes and declines.
The Holy Bible is the Living Word of God. This belief is present in both the liberal/revisionist (lr) and conservative/orthodox (co) groups of Anglicans, however with very different interpretations. For the lr it means that as times, people and societies change, than so to may our interpretation of Scripture. For the co it means that the Holy Bible is meant to be relevant to all people of all times and all places, as part of our daily lives. Herein lays the great divide between lr and co groups. The lr is putting people ahead of Scripture and saying that God should change to better suit us. The co is putting Scripture ahead of people and saying that people should change to better suit God.
The homosexual questions are merely the symptom of this discord. The understanding of the differences in the approach taken by the two groups serves very well to better comprehend why there is such a rift that the Communion is on the verge of schism.
The lr claim that they are inclusive by accepting people as they are, whether they be homosexual seeking to be married, women seeking to be priests, divorcees seeking to be re-married, etc. The lr go on to accuse the co of being non-inclusive (and sometimes even intolerant) because the co continue to identify these things as being against the Will of God (which is the very definition of sin).
I think it is funny that Christianpost would have a fundamentalist like Albert Mohler comment on anything that is tied to mainstream Protestantism. Baptists are hyper Protestants who didn't break away from Rome, but they broke away from historical Protestantism. If I remember correctly the Protestants hunted down Baptists for their unbiblical view of baptism.
Maybe next time you can get a mainline Protestant to comment.