Updated 07:54 am.EST, Mon November 23, 2009

Opinion|Wed, Jun. 25 2008 09:17 AM EDT

In Error and Apostate - The Anglican Division Looms

By R. Albert Mohler, Jr.|Christian Post Guest Columnist

The world-wide Anglican Communion has been skating on thin ice for decades now, skirting disaster only by an infinitely creative arrangement of compromises. Now, with the Lambeth Conference of Anglican bishops coming in just a few weeks, a group of 300 conservative Anglican bishops is meeting in Jerusalem. Their meeting will make history, and may well define the ultimate breakup of global Anglicanism.

The Global Anglican Future Conference [GAFCON] featured an address by Dr. Peter Akinola, Archbishop of Nigeria, on Sunday evening. Archbishop Akinola has emerged as one of the most courageous and theologically committed leaders of worldwide Anglicanism.

In his address, delivered as something of a keynote for the event, Archbishop Akinola declared that "a sizable part of the Communion is in error and not a few are apostate." This gets to the heart of The Anglican dilemma. The issues now separating liberals and conservatives within the global Anglican Communion are no longer matters on which compromise can be reached. To the contrary, the doctrinal and theological explosions connected to the issues of human sexuality and biblical authority have distilled the fundamental issues down to what is considered non-negotiable by both sides. Conservatives are unwilling to surrender biblical authority and the liberals are unwilling to surrender their determination to normalize homosexuality and other liberal causes. In reality, the division has already happened - all that remains is the final form of the division.

As Archbishop Akinola lamented, doctrinal "revisionists" have attempted to create a new religion in the place of historic biblical Christianity. In his words: "Clearly the bedrock of the revisionist perspective is the humanist, rather than theological approach. This is the crux of the problem: they are going in the opposite direction from what Biblical orthodoxy demands, and with such a mindset, a meeting-point with those who are labeled conservatives – who have chosen to stand where the Bible stands, becomes a very remote possibility."

As Ruth Gledhill of The Times [London] reported, Archbishop Akinola expressed frustration that Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams had arranged the upcoming Lambeth Conference in such a way that dealing with the fundamental issues would be virtually impossible. "Rejecting all entreaties, Lambeth Palace chose not to be bothered about that which troubles us; decided to stick to its own plans and to erect the walls of the 2008 Lambeth Conference on the shaky and unsafe foundations of our brokenness," he said.

Meanwhile, Archbishop Peter Jensen of the Australian archdiocese of Sydney described the Anglican breakup as tragic. Nevertheless, Dr. Jensen insisted that the issue of truth was more important than the imperative of unity. "We're not dealing with the secular world here, we are dealing with the Christian church, and the Christian church has a constitution which is the Bible," he said [see coverage in The Age [Melbourne].

In his address, Archbishop Akinola described how many Anglican believers around the world, especially in Africa, view the liberals in Western churches [see The Times]:

"Having survived the inhuman physical slavery of the 19th century, the political slavery called colonialism of the 20th century, the developing world economic enslavement, we cannot, we dare not, allow ourselves and the millions we represent to be kept in a religious and spiritual dungeon."

"We will not abdicate our God-given responsibility and simply acquiesce to destructive modern cultural and political dictates."

Even as the meeting began in Jerusalem, observers were warning that the day of the Archbishop of Canterbury's spiritual leadership over the Anglican Communion "is over." The GAFCON meeting produced a plan for a new fellowship of more orthodox Anglican churches. As Ruth Gledhill explains:

The new fellowship for orthodox Anglicans would have a leadership of six or seven senior conservative bishops and archbishops, such as the Bishop of Pittsburgh, the Right Rev Bob Duncan, who chairs the US Common Cause partnership that acts as an umbrella for American conservatives, Archbishop Henry Orombi, Primate of Uganda, and the Church of England's Bishop of Rochester, Dr Michael Nazir-Ali.

The aim is not to split with the worldwide Anglican Communion, which counts 80 million members in 38 provinces, but to reform it from within.

Formal ties will be maintained with the Archbishop of Canterbury but fellowship members will consider themselves out of communion with provinces such as the US and Canada.

There are orthodox and faithful Christians in the American and Canadian churches, but those in leadership in those churches have steadfastly refused to stop an onward march into theological and ecclesiastical disaster.

Jerusalem was a controversial location for the GAFCON meeting. But, after all, the famous "Jerusalem Council" of the early church was held there as recorded in Acts 15:6-21. In that council, the apostles and elders of the early church met and reached the consensus that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is for both Jews and Gentiles, and that Gentile converts to Christ were not required to first become, in effect, Jews.

Perhaps we are seeing before our eyes what we should have anticipated - that Jerusalem is a good place to remember what the Gospel is.

________________________________________________

R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. For more articles and resources by Dr. Mohler, and for information on The Albert Mohler Program, a daily national radio program broadcast on the Salem Radio Network, go to www.albertmohler.com. For information on The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, go to www.sbts.edu. Send feedback to mail@albertmohler.com. Original Source: www.albertmohler.com.
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  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    star2, I figure this is just planting seeds.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    All in God's timing. There are things that He is convicting me about now, that 3 months ago I was perfectly fine with. So I know how God works sometimes.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet - God revealed to me that what his problem is is that He hasn't dealt with him about the issue.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:02 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    star,
    Hebrews 10:26

    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Amen wbmoore.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    thanks Star2.

    I am praying. and God keeps me coming back doing what I"m doing. At one point, in a different series of posts, God had me quit. This time, He has me responding. *shrug* I just provide clarification for Feet. God willing, he will be moved by the Holy Spirit to remove the scales from his eyes/heart and recognize and accept God's truth, grace, and love.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:19 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    wbmoore, believer, Prophet

    I know you all and others are going nowhere with feetxxxl. I think the problem is is that God isn't dealing with him about his sin yet. When someone has a sin issue in his/her life God doesn't necessarily work in the person's life for repentance when others think He ought to. God has a time when He will deal with him about this issue of homosexuality and his need to surrender it to God so that God can set him free from it. Maybe you need to ask God how to minister to him. You'll see more success because you are praying exactly the will of God and you'll know exactly what God wants you to do. Any way, be patient, and seek God in what He would have you do.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wb, totally agree with you on the vital importance of repentance in the life of the believer and non-believer alike.
    On the surrender issue, I believe that is a process that we'll not see completed until we go on to glory, but I do believe a person who has had a genuine conversion experience will also come to a place in their relationship with the Lord where they realize if they are to truly become the Christ-like person God wants them to be in order for God to use them to their fullest for His glory that will require them to be surrendered to the Lordship of Christ and they will make the decision to begin that process. Because as you said, and I believe rightfully so, surrender is a daily choice by choice decision as to who will be Lord of every area of our life.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    " but could there be however the exception of the person who is caught up in a sinful lifestyle or sin and wrestling with God in a final attempt to either prove that God does not condemn their lifestyle or sin or that they cannot change or they just don't get it with regards to the sin or sinful lifestyle they are caught up in and yet God as their heavenly Father continues to discipline them.. "

    Wow. what a question!

    I think we are saved when we change from the known sins in our lives and surrender to God, accepting Christ as our savior.

    However, I think that we ARE often unknowingly sinful. But as we mature in our faith in Christ, God works in us to show us what He wants us to surrender to Him. I KNOW we might not want to accept that we have to give up a sin and whle we trust in Christ for salvation, we will search the scriptures looking for a way to justify our behavior.

    But once we see the scripture that tells us to change, we need to surrender - or begin the process of surrender. I have had times when I had to pray for the desire to change what God said I needed to change. Eventually, that sin went away.

    But what I think most Christians miss is the attitude of selfishness we have. As long as we continue to focus on the sins, we will keep fighting them down, and other (previously addressed) sins will pop back up.

    We miss the true freedom that comes with faith in Christ. It IS surrender of self. We are to die with Christ on the cross. What rights do the dead have? None. We are to be new creations. What sins do infant babies commit? None, they know no better and inherently trust us implicitly.

    I think we miss out on peace and other blessings that God wants to bestow on us because of our willful sinful attitudes. We do not want to accept the fact that GOD is in control. We do not WANT the Lordship of Christ in our lives. And so we suffer.

    I am not sure if I could honestly say that Christ has full Lordship in my life, but I am constantly trying to surrender more and more to Him. But even so, I think the focus is off. It seems to me that as long as I am focusing on the little things, I am missing the big ME that needs to be surrendered. I have surrendered my life to Christ. I am HIS. What I own is HIS. What I will have is HIS. But I am beginning to believe I need to focus on Christ and surrendering my attitudes and rights to Him.

    Actually, I think I have to surrender even more, but this is a learning process I am currently in, so I dont know what the more is yet. I think I am missing something in the image of the cross that prevents me from understanding and accepting my true position in Christ. From my readings, I belive once I come to that understanding, I will be even more content and unworried and obedient.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer wrote:
    "I totally agree that someone who continues to willfully sin or practice a sinful lifestyle who shows no remorse or guilt has never made a genuine profession of faith in Christ,"

    Scripture says that Godly sorrow leads to repentance. It helps us become who God wants us to be.

    2 Corinthians 7:8-10
    8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

    Its the repentance that is the key.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet & wb, I totally agree that someone who continues to willfully sin or practice a sinful lifestyle who shows no remorse or guilt has never made a genuine profession of faith in Christ, but could there be however the exception of the person who is caught up in a sinful lifestyle or sin and wrestling with God in a final attempt to either prove that God does not condemn their lifestyle or sin or that they cannot change or they just don't get it with regards to the sin or sinful lifestyle they are caught up in and yet God as their heavenly Father continues to discipline them. I'm talking about for lack of a better term the miserable Christian who is not experiencing the peace or joy of their salvation as a result of this struggle. I know this may be different but early on in my Chrisitian life I struggled with the Lordship issue, it wasn't that I didn't want to surrender I just didn't get it and as a result I was miserable and not experiencing the peace and joy of my salvation, but once I did choose to surrender to the Lordship of Christ that all changed. If I'm not clear in what I'm trying to say let me know.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    Good catch. I must have been almost asleep when I read his post. Sorry I didn't catch it.

    Feet, I know of no one with faith in Christ who continues to do what God said not to do without agreeing with God that it is sin and working to change.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:01 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    You said "i didnt know you've had so mmuch fellowship with gay believers." I never have, because there is no such thing. If they were believers then they would know they were sinnning, if they are gay then they don't believe the Word of God. It's acutally quites simple.
    Ther may be gay religious people, but they are not believers or Christians. I hope that answers your question.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet wrote:
    "i didnt know you've had so mmuch fellowship with gay believers. you said that homosexuals dont bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals. i am assuming that this understanding contributes to your believing it is a sin. could you please explain the difference and if it has anything to do with what is written romans1"

    Speaking from my own perspective (I have never been a man in a long term homosexual relationship, although I have had homosexual experiences as teen) and speaking in general, the friendship bond between two men seems different than between a man and woman. Both men seem much more independent than a man and woman. A Christian man and woman often seem to have well defined roles (although not always). Non-Christian couples seem to have difficulty as they force roles upon themselves and each other - this is true of both homosexual couples and heterosexual couples. Its much more common for a man to show a woman tenderness than a man to show a man the same (although it does of course happen). Often it seems like one or both of the men is trying too hard.

    But speaking Biblically, I'd have to say the main difference is God defined marriage in Genesis and Jesus re-iterated it in Mark 10:6-10
    6 But at the beginning of creation God "made them male and female." 7 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8 and the two will become one flesh." So they are no longer two, but one. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.

    Also, God defined homosexual sex as sin in the Old and New Testament, and homosexual desire as sin in Romans 1, and elsewhere in the Bible. As I posted earlier, Jesus called us to not live sexually immoral lives and to not sin. I try to take that seriously.

    For me, the Bible is the final word on any discussion or disagreement I have. I have times when I held a position strongly and someone showed me, in context, that the Bible taught something different or I read it during my devotion times. If the Bible says something different than what I think, I will try to find all verses dealing with that subject and then read them in context to come up with a more clear picture of that subject. But there have been times when I had to change the way I think or act because the Bible clearly showed I was not in alignment with God.

    That's why I asked earlier, "if you think something is good and God said it was bad, who is right?" And "if you think something is bad and God said it was good, who is right?". I've had to change my position on things before - sometimes in the middle of a disagreement or argument.

    the Bible is the measure for life, not the other way around. God is bigger than us, He created us and everything around us. He gets to set the rules. He decides what is best for us and what is not good for us. So when He gives a warning, I try to heed it.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    i didnt know you've had so mmuch fellowship with gay believers. you said that homosexuals dont bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals. i am assuming that this understanding contributes to your believing it is a sin. could you please explain the difference and if it has anything to do with what is written romans1

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, that was inspiring. thanks.

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Amen, wbmoore
    In my meeting with my pastor today we were discussing the apathy and laziness of the church. We talked about how Christians were becoming apathetic; thinking that Christianity was a vacation, not a war; thinking only of themselves; not even caring about their own Christian brothers and sisters that they can't even care about the world. A great 20th century prophet wrote "The world is sleeping in the dark, and the Church just can't fight because it's asleep in the light."
    And with that comes the apathy towards God and His Holy Word. And when that happens they are seduced by the doctrines of demons and led astray like simple minded children.
    But hold fast to the truth that is His Word. Do not deviate! Do not turn to one side or another! Do not heed seductive words of the harlot! She will take you into her bed chamber and defile you, and the bride groom will cast you out because you have been defiled.
    Make your way sure. Though you are persecuted, remain in His Truth. Though you are ridiculed, do not deny His Word. Though you are killed for His sake, rejoice that you have remained faithful to the end; for His faithfullness to you will never end. Be encouraged when those around you fall. Though a thousand fall at your right side, and ten thousand on your right, remain standing.
    My brother, speak the truth. Do not hold it back. Do not tell God "no" when He asks you to speak. For though you are persecuted in this life for speaking His words, a worse judgement waits for them.

    His mercy endures forever.

  • Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Let's see what else John says about sinning and whether someone sinning is born of God
    .
    1 John 3:7-10
    7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

    You have to do what is right - obey God and not sin as HE defined it, and you have to love. BOTH are expected of us.

    Paul wrote:
    1 Timothy 5:20, “Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.”

    Hebrews 3:13, “But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called Today, so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.”

    Hebrews 5:9
    and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

    2 Tim 2:1-5
    1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

    We simply have to obey God, rather than be hardened by the deceitfulness or sin.

    But we are in the end times, when people prefer their own pleasure and thoughts to a life dedicated to God.

  • Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I think the single quotes and the dash (especially if cut and paste from word) is causing the messed up characters. I sent an email to CP.

  • Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "you dont consort with habitual sinners, therefore you would have no 1john 1 witness(" that which we have looked at, which we have seen with our eyes and our hands have touched") of gay 15-30 year bonded relationships.................. and you would have no fellowship witness with the same among gay believers.( if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another)"

    First, you have know idea of who I consort with. I have worked with out homosexuals, and I have ministered to all sorts of people. As I have said, some of them were quite moral. But they were not saved. I have known people in long term committed relationships; they were also nice. But the thing is, they were still going against the word of God. The difference is, they did not pretend to be a Christian.

    Let's look at what 1 John 1 says concerning witness:
    1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete.

    John gave witness because He knew Christ - so he would have 1st hand knowledge of what Christ said.

    But let us look at the rest of 1 John 1:
    5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

    He made it quite clear that if you claim Christ and yet sin (walk in darkness), then you lie and do not have Christ.

    "plus in addition, your contention is regardless of whether they are equal to heterosexuals in every way..........................................god has said it is a sin in scripture and one of those places is romans1"

    The difference is whether one is sinning or not. If you live a life of sin, then you are not saved. If you claim Christ, then according to John, you should not sin.

  • Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hey feet,
    Don't forget to put in your post that Jesus hung with the whores and drunks.
    But what you don't realize (or don't want to admit) is that though Jesus hung with them, didn't mean that He approved of their behavior, much less promoted it.
    Homosexuals love to use the illustration that Jesus hung with the sinners as to justify that we should too. Well, I do. And I also act like Christ in those situations by not approving or promoting their sin. I love them, but I don't join in their sin. Basically, homosexuals are saying "Jesus hung with the prostitutes so He must have been using their services. He hung with the drunks so He must have been one too."
    That is just sick.

  • Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "in the old covenant, god put forth regulations, which were to be followed (deut 28)the nature of this kind of relationship, was that the isrealites were led by regulation(law). your contention is that this is the same relationship we have to god under the new covenant of christ.(whether there are changes or not in the law) it is this relationship to the law that if we maimtain the same obedience to regulation, as the obedience that was expected in the old covenant, it shows our love for god."

    Actually, not exactly. In the old testament, we were given rules for how to live, with punishments that would be meted out by people. Any spiritual problems were covered by the physical sacrifice. In the New Testament, the rules have not changed, but they are to point us to our need for Christ. The punishment is relieved for those who put their trust in Christ, because Christ paid the price for the sins of those who believe.

    Now the catch that you can't seem to understand is that to love Christ, you need to obey. Scripture says over and over that if you love Christ you will obey Him. Scripture says to leave sin - which is defined in the Old Testament and expanded upon in the New Testament.

    "i say this because you say that in regards to homosexuality, god thru discussion(his word) of the law in scripture has said that he deems homosexuality unacceptable."

    He said it is sin - in both the Old and New Testaments.

    "this why you said that homosexuality does not bond in the same spirit as heterosexuality, because of what you understand is written in scripture."

    No. It is because of what is written in Scripture - not because of what I understand is written in Scripture.

  • Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:11 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    John 3:1-6
    1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

    2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

    3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



    feet, if you were of the spirit of God you would understand the things of the Spirit. But you are not. You are carnal. And a carnally minded person cannot understand the things of the Spirit. Because just after that passage I posted Jesus says "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
    And that is why you don't/won't understand. As I've said before and I'll say it again. You are not a Christian, therefore some things are not for you to know.

  • Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    in the old covenant, god put forth regulations, which were to be followed (deut 28)the nature of this kind of relationship, was that the isrealites were led by regulation(law). your contention is that this is the same relationship we have to god under the new covenant of christ.(whether there are changes or not in the law) it is this relationship to the law that if we maimtain the same obedience to regulation, as the obedience that was expected in the old covenant, it shows our love for god.


    i say this because you say that in regards to homosexuality, god thru discussion(his word) of the law in scripture has said that he deems homosexuality unacceptable.

    this why you said that homosexuality does not bond in the same spirit as heterosexuality, because of what you understand is written in scripture.

    you dont consort with habitual sinners, therefore you would have no 1john 1 witness(" that which we have looked at, which we have seen with our eyes and our hands have touched") of gay 15-30 year bonded relationships.................. and you would have no fellowship witness with the same among gay believers.( if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another)

    plus in addition, your contention is regardless of whether they are equal to heterosexuals in every way..........................................god has said it is a sin in scripture and one of those places is romans1

  • Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    so what was it about the fruit on the tree, was it like the magic mushrooms there been a recent study about?. how did putting a piece of fruit in ones mouth make that person die. did it transform the molecules of his body into something it wasnt before. how does a piece of fruit make changes in that persons body or make them more knowledgeable about anything, so that god can say that this knowledge will cause them to die. and what kind of death was it?

    and you are saying that there is wide spread agreement on the answers to these questions in christendom.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    Like many unknowlegable people, you have misquoted scripture. You said "need to eat for sustenance and may eat from any tree, but do not eat from the tree of good and evil."

    The tree is not the tree of good and evil...its the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. And that is why God did not want Adam and Eve eating of it. Because (as it is written) God said "for in the day you eat of it you will die."
    But satan twisted the Words of God around (just as he does today with the topic of homosexuality) and said "You will not surely die, For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ??if i am not misstating you, your belief is that under the new covenant god puts "garden of edens" type situations in our lives and says do this............. dont do this." you need to eat for sustenance and may eat from any tree, but do not eat from the tree of good and evil." i say garden of eden, because 4000 or whatever years later ther is no clear agreement among believers as to what the sin was about eating it. only they were told not to do it and they did it. and this what you say is the relationship we now have with the father under the new covenant.. yes i have made the anus an errogenous zone but do not touch it for sexual pleasure. yes i have allowed you to have a desire to bond with the same sex , but you are not to express it in any way.

    im not interested in what was or was not said. what im asking is there any correlation between this understanding and your understanding that homosexuality is a sin?"

    I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for.
    Life is a series of choices. We can choose to believe God or not. We can choose to obey God or not.

    Just as Pharaoh chose to disobey God because he did not believe and he harden his own heart, so too did God harden his heart. In the New Testament, we have liberty, within bounds. We are not to cause our brother to stumble. We are not to live lives of sin (which God defines), nor have hearts that covet sin. Just as in the Old Testament the Jews had to obey God, so too in the New Testament believers must obey God. But Christ took it up a notch - we are not even to commit sins in our hearts, let alone outwardly.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ??if i am not misstating you, your belief is that under the new covenant god puts "garden of edens" type situations in our lives and says do this............. dont do this." you need to eat for sustenance and may eat from any tree, but do not eat from the tree of good and evil." i say garden of eden, because 4000 or whatever years later ther is no clear agreement among believers as to what the sin was about eating it. only they were told not to do it and they did it. and this what you say is the relationship we now have with the father under the new covenant.. yes i have made the anus an errogenous zone but do not touch it for sexual pleasure. yes i have allowed you to have a desire to bond with the same sex , but you are not to express it in any way."

    im not interested in what was or was not said. what im asking is there any correlation between this understanding and your understanding that homosexuality is a sin?

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    (4)
    “there were 11 of them. they all thanked me for my request. that was a year ago, since then nothing. my request was to please, either send me or tell me where i can find all reference materials that validated the transpositon. i could not believe that an interjection, this huge, that would SPECIFICALLY single a particular group, not out of spirit evidence but by their inner essence, as sinners, would have no references for having done so. my only explanation for something this corrupt, was because the earliest translations took place in 19th century england. 1n the 1500's king henry passed a law making acts of sodomy punishable by hanging. it remained on the books for 400 years. this and there is no seperation betwen church and state in england. the queen is head of the church of england. the same way that henry was in the 1500's.”

    It just maybe, possibly, sorta, might, have been because there was no need to address your email directly. The scripture does so, over and over. It is one thing to address a question that is earnestly seeking information. It is another to address a question that is intended only to seek ways to knock down a position.

    It certainly seems to me that you have a demon of confusion blinding your eyes, mind, and spirit to seeing, understanding, and accepting the truth of what God has said concerning homosexual desire and sex. I pray to God He will clear your eyes, mind, spirit from this oppression.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    (3)

    “you use the "word of god" over and over. i know of only one word of god.................it is christ who was here from the beginning. if he was here from the beginning then whatever was the word, was christ..”

    As I'm sure you know, I use the term 'word of God' to indicate the Bible, which is God breathed. Christ is the 'Word of God'. But the Bible is the 'word of God'., according to Scripture

    John 10:34-36
    34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came - and the Scripture cannot be broke - 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

    Also notice that the Bereans were searching Scripture to see if what Paul preached was true, and that Paul preached the word of God.

    Acts 17:11-13
    11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men. 13 When the Jews in Thessalonica learned that Paul was preaching the word of God at Berea, they went there too, agitating the crowds and stirring them up.

    “there were no specific teachings about homosexuality. the translators attempted to make those such teachings when they decided to say "malebed" meant "homosexual."

    Yes there are. You are trying to ignore scripture again. Leviticus tells us what sex acts God considers to be sexually immoral and sin. Jesus said to not sin and not be sexually immoral. In Romans, God calls homosexual desire and sex to be shameful, sinful, depraved, and unnatural, sexual immorality, degrading, indecent and perversion.

    at biblegateway i emailed every translator who transposed the word"homosexual" for the word " male bed."

    Again, this is an irrelevant strawman argument. God did not have to coin the term at that time, because it was very clear to his audience then (and NOW) what He meant. In Romans 1, God calls homosexual desire and sex to be shameful, sinful, depraved, and unnatural, sexual immorality, degrading, indecent and perversion. There is no need to use the word homosexual, since this is a recently coined term that describes man lying with men and women lying with women, which is what was described in Romans 1.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    (2)
    “if i am not misstating you, your belief is that under the new covenant god puts "garden of edens" type situations in our lives and says do this............. dont do this." you need to eat for sustenance and may eat from any tree, but do not eat from the tree of good and evil." i say garden of eden, because 4000 or whatever years later ther is no clear agreement among believers as to what the sin was about eating it. only they were told not to do it and they did it. and this what you say is the relationship we now have with the father under the new covenant.. yes i have made the anus an errogenous zone but do not touch it for sexual pleasure. yes i have allowed you to have a desire to bond with the same sex , but you are not to express it in any way."

    Um. No that is not what I said. What I said was:
    God created us with the ability to make choices. Satan had his free will and used it to influence Adam and Eve, who chose to disobey. God has allowed us to sin or not sin. He gives us the Holy Spirit to enable us to not sin, if we believe. But we have the option and responsibility to choose to not sin.

    God tests our hearts:

    1 Thessalonians 2:4
    On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts.

    Notice that God does not tempt anyone, but He DOES test us:
    James 1:12-14
    Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. 13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

    The Bible tells us what God considers good and bad, in both the old and new testaments. While you seem to want to test things by a 'spirit', I test things by the Bible. It is a manual of how to live and not live.


    “there is no clear agreement among believers who support the above as god's regulations. and you would say that is not important. what is important is that he said it.

    The only people who do not agree, seem to be those who do not hold to the Scriptures in their whole being the word of God and are trying to relegate the scripture as irrelevant and not applicable to their sinful desires.

    God calls homosexual desire and sex to be shameful, sinful, depraved, and unnatural, sexual immorality, degrading, indecent and perversion.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    (1)
    Apparently I was not clear enough in my original response to Feet’s questions. So I will try to take them point by point and be more clear.

    Feet wrote:
    “i think on the issue of homosexuality being a sin, everything rises and falls on romans. “

    I'd say whether homosexual desire and homosexual sex are sinful hinge on the whole bible, not just Romans. The Old Testament defined sexual immorality (the sex acts that God calls wrong) and said to not do the things that are defined as wrong. The New Testament says do not be sexually immoral - it is not just in Romans.

    Although Romans is abundantly clear that God called the desire of one man for another (or one woman for another) to be shameful, sinful, depraved, and unnatural. He called the act sexual immorality, degrading, and indecent. And it appears to me that He called both the desire and the act of a man lying with a man (or woman lying with a woman) perversion.

    “please be more specific on which verses one can or cannot transpose the word "homosexual"for the personal pronouns.”

    You are the one who said it was possible substitute homosexual for the pronouns. If you want to do it, you try it. I simply said it looks like it fits. I also said that whether you can or not do that does not validate or invalidate any verses - nor does it make the principle invalid or inapplicable. However, after you did the substitution, it looked like it DOES fit even more than when I read it doing the substitutions on the fly.

    But as I have said, whether you substitute ‘homosexual’ (and its plural/possessive) for the pronouns does not validate or invalidate the scripture. The Scripture in Romans 1 is about exchanging something for God - and the consequences are being given over to more sin. By exchanging your desires/thoughts for what God' says, you put yourself (a created thing) in the place of God. When this happens you are given over to what God has called sexual desire and between people of the same gender to be shameful, sinful, depraved, unnatural, and the sexual act between people of the same gender to sexual immorality, degrading, and indecent.

    They are both sins – in the Old Testament, we only see God speaking out against the act, but in the New Testament we see that it Is not just our actions that matter, but our thoughts and emotions as well.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:28 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    God called the desire of one man for another (or one woman for another) to be shameful, sinful, depraved, and unnatural. He called the act sexual immorality, degrading, and indecent. And it appears to me that He called both the desire and the act of a man lying with a man (or woman lying with a woman) perversion.

    Love between two people does not remove the charactization of bad from anything God has defined as bad - homosexual sex, or any other kind. Love does not make bad behavior correct in the eyes of God.

    Since God called homosexual desire and sex sinful, sexual immorality, etc., then it IS a sin. Since it is a sin, then for someone to say they love God but refuse to turn away from their sin, then that person has not repented. Since there is not repentance, there is no salvation.

    God calls it a sin for a man to lay with a man, or a woman to lay with a woman. If someone tries to get someone else to sin, that is sin. It is an act against one's brother or sister. That is not love, but selfishness.

    Thus, homosexual desire and homosexual sex are sins and sexually immoral. To willingly engage in them is selfishness and sin. To engage in them with someone else is to encourage someone else to sin. To cause someone else to sin is selfishness. This goes against both what the Bible teaches and what anyone who loves God more than himself would think is the 'spirit of love' to use your phrase.

    If you want to go to heaven and be with God, change (which is what repent means) from your sin and believe God and turn to GOD. This is salvation. If its true belief (faith/trust), then your life will show evidence of the faith.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Feet, I DID answer you at 9:26.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Also, to clear up your confusion what is the word of God (lowecase):
    Let me remind you of what (lowercase) 'the word of God' is (Note that Jesus called Scripture the 'word of God'):

    John 10:34-36
    34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

    Alson notice that the Bereans were searching Scripture to see if what Paul preached was true, and that Paul preached the word of God.
    Acts 17:11-13
    11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men. 13 When the Jews in Thessalonica learned that Paul was preaching the word of God at Berea, they went there too, agitating the crowds and stirring them up.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wbmoore

    im still waiting for you to answer the rest of my questions in my 7:17 pm email.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wbmoore, talk about getting to the heart of the matter, your last post not only got to the matter it got to the heart of salvation, true repentance and that teaching is so sadly lacking in many of our evangelical churches today. Be blessed as you serve Him, believer.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:55 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Feet,

    You can go ahead and try to justify all you want. But the fact of the matter is, God called the desire of one man for another (or one woman for another) to be shameful, sinful, depraved, and unnatural. He called the act sexual immorality, degrading, and indecent.

    So since He called it sinful, sexual immorality, etc., then it IS a sin. Since it is a sin, then for someone to say they love God but refuse to turn away from their sin, then that person has not repented. Since there is not repentance, there is no salvation.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    1 Thes4:3-8
    3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control his own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It is about exchanging something for God - and the consequences are being given over to more sin. By exchanging your desires for God's you put yourself (a created thing) in the place of God. But you are free to disagree. I have shown and shown you what God said about homosexuality being a sin. You can ignore it. But doing so is disobedience to God.

    Ephesians 5:6
    Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    just as a quick response, yes it does address same sex relations, but is it addressing homosexuality....... no.

    scriptures condemnation balaam's of isrealite men having sex with pagan women, led on by balaam's inducement have anything to do heterosexual bonding? sex relations yes !human bonding no! does their behavior condemn heterosexuality? no!

    however for those who believe romans is about homosexuality...........then it is for them who believe it does, either to expplain why the transposition doesnt work or why it does.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    But whether you think it fits or not, the verses still say that homosexual sex is bad and sinful. Look at the verses, it says
    24 Therefore God gave them over in the SINFUL DESIRES of their hearts to SEXUAL IMPURITY for the DEGRADING of their BODIES WITH ONE ANOTHER. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to SHAMEFUL LUSTS. Even their WOMEN EXCHANGED NATURAL RELATIONS FOR UNNATURAL ones. 27 In the same way the MEN also ABANDONED NATURAL RELATIONS WITH WOMEN and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed INDECENT ACTS WITH OTHER MEN, and received in themselves the due penalty for their PERVERSION. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a DEPRAVED MIND, to do what OUGHT NOT TO BE DONE.

    You can try to explain it away all you want, but God still said those things about men with men and women with women.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    the questions are addressed to wbmoore but they are open to anyone to address.

    please copy the question you are addressing so i can adequately address your comment.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,

    What do you think - does it fit?

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Cut and paste can cause this to happen - especially since Christian Post switched software. I think the funky characters are due to using double dashes (-), but I'm not sure.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl, I know this is a conversation between you and wbmoore for the most part but since you're referring to Romans 1 so much I have got to say with all due respect as I read your posts you appear to me to epitomize the verse that says professing themselves to be wise they have become fools, I mean you go through this long drawn out disertation to try and justify a sinful lifestyle that as wbmoore and others have pointed out is condemned throughout the Word of God and nowhere in the Word of God is this sinful lifestyle ever condoned, endorsed, or encouraged. It's time to abandon this ship before it's too late.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    for some reason the hyphens in the text printed out "a??"

    my apologies!

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    HERE IT IS FOR YOU EDIFICATION. SURELY IF ROMANS 1 IS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY BEING A SIN THEN THE TRANSPOSITION FOR THE PRONOUNS IS VALID.

    IS IT STILL VALID? PERHAPS YOU BELIEVE THAT HOMOSEXUAL COULD BE TRANSPOSED FOR ONLY SOME OF THE VERSES. IF SO WHICH ONES?

    IF IT DOES NOT WORK FOR ANY, THEN IT IS NOT ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY BEING A SIN.

    THERE WERE OTHER QUESTIONS BESIDES THE ONES ABOUT ROMANS. PLEASE RECOPY MY TEXT AND SEND INTERJECTING YOUR RESPONSES BETWEN MY PARAGRAPHS. THANK YOU.

    DOES IT WORK?

    18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of homosexuals who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to homosexuals, because God has made it plain to homosexuals. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that homosexuals are without excuse.
    21For although homosexuals knew God, homosexuals neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although homosexuals claimed to be wise, homosexuals became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

    24Therefore God gave homosexuals over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25homosexuals exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

    26Because of this, God gave homosexuals over to shameful lusts. Even homosexual's women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the homosexuals also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. homosexuals committed indecent acts with other homosexuals, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    28Furthermore, since homosexals did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave homosexuals over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29homosexuals have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. homosexuals are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. homosexuals are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; homosexuals invent ways of doing evil; homosexuals disobey their parents; 31homosexuals are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although homosexuals know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, homosexuals not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Feet,

    God created us with the ability to make choices. Satan had his free will and used it to influence Adam and Eve, who chose to disobey. God has allowed us to sin or not sin. He gives us the Holy Spirit to enable us to not sin, if we believe. But we have the option and responsibility to choose to not sin.

    The Bible tells us what God considers good and bad, in both the old and new testaments. While you seem to want to test things by a 'spirit', I test things by the Bible. It is a manual of how to live and not live.

    I'd say it hinges on the whole bible, not just Romans. The Old Testament defined sexual immorality (the sex acts that God calls wrong) and said to not do the things that are defined as wrong. The New Testament says do not be sexually immoral - it is not just in Romans.

    You are the one who said it was possible substitute homosexual for the pronouns. If you want to do it, you try it. I simply said it looks like it fits. I also said that whether you can or not do that does not validate or invalidate any verses - nor does it make the principle invalid or inapplicable.

    You can not invalidate or ignore scripture in one area to try to emphasize another scripture - it works together as a cohesive whole.

    As I'm sure you know, I use the term 'word of God' to indicate the Bible, which is God breathed. Christ is the 'Word of God'. But the Bible is the 'word of God'.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    i think on the issue of homosexuality being a sin, everything rises and falls on romans. please be more specific on which verses one can or cannot transpose the word "homosexual"for the personal pronouns.


    if i am not misstating you, your belief is that under the new covenant god puts "garden of edens" type situations in our lives and says do this............. dont do this." you need to eat for sustenance and may eat from any tree, but do not eat from the tree of good and evil." i say garden of eden, because 4000 or whatever years later ther is no clear agreement among believers as to what the sin was about eating it. only they were told not to do it and they did it. and this what you say is the relationship we now have with the father under the new covenant.

    "yes i have made the anus an errogenous zone but do not touch it for sexual pleasure."


    "yes i have allowed you to have a desire to bond with the same sex , but you are not to express it in any way."

    there is no clear agreement among believers who support the above as god's regulations. and you would say that is not important. what is important is that he said it.


    you use the "word of god" over and over. i know of only one word of god.................it is christ who was here from the beginning. if he was here from the beginning then whatever was the word, was christ..

    there were no specific teachings about homosexuality. the translators attempted to make those such teachings when they decided to say "malebed" meant "homosexual."

    at biblegateway i emailed every translator who transposed the word"homosexual" for the word " male bed."

    there were 11 of them. they all thanked me for my request. that was a year ago, since then nothing. my request was to please, either send me or tell me where i can find all reference materials that validated the transpositon.

    i could not believe that an interjection, this huge, that would SPECIFICALLY single a particular group, not out of spirit evidence but by their inner essence, as sinners, would have no references for having done so.

    my only explanation for something this corrupt, was because the earliest translations took place in 19th century england. 1n the 1500's king henry passed a law making acts of sodomy punishable by hanging. it remained on the books for 400 years. this and there is no seperation betwen church and state in england. the queen is head of the church of england. the same way that henry was in the 1500's.

    im going to stop here because to go further i need a clearer understanding of what you are saying on the above points.

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