More Americans are acquainted with a gay or lesbian person than an evangelical, according to a recent study.
The latest research by Phoenix-based Ellison Research found that only 24 percent of all Americans who say they are not evangelical know an evangelical person very well and 40 percent have never known any evangelicals at all, even casually. Meanwhile, 53 percent say they know a homosexual person very well and 20 percent know such a person casually.
"The study raises questions about why members of some groups are largely invisible to so many Americans," Ron Sellers, president of Ellison Research, noted.
Sellers pointed out that homosexuals are estimated to make up less than 10 percent of the U.S. population while 17 percent of Americans call themselves evangelical. Despite the larger evangelical count, Americans are more likely to know a gay or lesbian person than an evangelical.
Also, the study showed that a majority of evangelicals (62 percent), along with 75 percent of Protestant churchgoers and 77 percent of all Catholics, know a gay or lesbian person at least casually.
"Is this because homosexuals are more open than evangelicals about who they are? Because Americans are more open to knowing a homosexual than an evangelical? Because evangelicals themselves are less likely to reach into the broader community to form relationships?" he posed. "These questions are certainly open to debate."
The questions Sellers posed can also be applied to other groups, he noted. "You could just as easily ask these questions about Mormons versus evangelicals, where Americans are just as likely to know a Mormon as an evangelical, even though by any measure the evangelical population in the U.S. is dramatically larger than the Mormon population."
According to the study, 21 percent know a Mormon very well.
Statistics were more positive for born-again Christians, but only to a small extent. Among Americans who do not call themselves born again, 38 percent say they know a born-again Christian very well and 18 percent have never known one.
Among other findings, half of all Americans know a member of the Christian clergy very well, 20 percent know one casually, and 12 percent have never known a clergyperson. More interestingly, the study pointed out that among people who regularly attend worship services, 30 percent say they do not currently know any clergy members very well and 14 percent say they do not even know one, including their own minister or priest, casually.
Younger Americans are less likely to know a Christian clergyperson. Only 39 percent of people under 35 know a Christian clergyperson very well compared to 48 percent of people 35 to 54 years old and 61 percent of those 55 or older.
Even fewer Catholic churchgoers report knowing any clergy with 23 percent saying they do not know one even casually, according to the study.
Although Catholics may not know their own priest, many Americans are acquainted with Catholics. With Catholics representing a large segment of the U.S. population, 76 percent of all non-Catholics say they currently know a Roman Catholic very well. Only 3 percent have never known a Catholic.
In other findings, people who regularly attend worship services are as likely to know people across religious or irreligious lines – atheists, Muslims, Mormons, and Jews – as those who are not active in a church or the unchurched.
The Ellison study also measured Americans' acquaintances with other types of people, including those of another ethnic background and persons in a different political party. Continue >>
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Oooooo - scitz a likes lina...scitz a likes lina ... I'm tell'n.
Lina, I read your posts and its as if I am reading my own. I have many of the same thoughts on religion.
In rereading over recent posts, if anyone's need re-posting, it's Lina's. She may not be an "acceptable Christian" for many on this Web site, but Christians need to seriously consider the points lina makes. Here are two.
Lina’s comments from 7/2/08:
And Prophet - I find it no substance in the Bible. Just orders. Like the Koran. An attempt to control the masses. It works for you. Great. Not for me. There is just no enough evidence for the claims of the Bible. There is much evidence in the works of Darwin, Einstein, and Watson (at least to me). The direction of our species has seemingly been heading in the right direction but at the expense of religion. Religion only comes to terms with scientific evidence stubbornly and often by conveniently reinterpreting its own texts to fit the new realities - essentially to save its own skin and retain a shred of legitimacy. Think of the world we're in. Evangelicals are obsessed with pro-life, anti-gay, anti-stem cell research, pro-Israel anti-diplomacy, anti-science issues (evolution, contraception, vaccination against HPV). They seemingly believe that failing to support these initiatives will bring out the end of the World. Can you think of anything more delusional? What 2 mature adults do naked in the privacy of their own home trumping fighting poverty? Consequently, not only do I find religious belief delusional, but harmful. That's why it should be privatized. The secular world doesn't need your picketing, your whining, your end-of-Western-Civilization-as-we-know-it doomsday scenarios. We don't need to be reminded of God's word or the Rapture. Not only do I know your texts well, I freely disbelieve in them.
and
I'll never get this. I will never understand god's purpose/need/want for creating a universe he will destroy, and so many billions of people, most of whom will burn in hell forever. Considering the vast amount of unbiased research conducted by the secular world, for the benefit of all humanity, religion has, in my eyes, been severely weakened; almost to the point of absolute dismissal. I really dislike the requirement for morality the religious ascribe to their texts. The world is less violent today because of the increasing absence of religion. That is obvious. Let's just take God out of the equation and privatizing him. There is no hope in weaving together the diverse beliefs of 6 billion into one universal religion. Muslims, Jews, and Hindus believe as strongly in their god(s) as you all do. So much so, they fear your afterlife. At one point do you say: I just have faith in my religion. I don't need to bark orders at anyone else. My faith has done little for the benefit of humanity (perhaps only for me in that provides me solace in the face of impending death). Humanity has been the only real driver of beneficial change. That is a fact.
Please, I beg of you all, dont boycott McD, They have good coffee and I am a rather large stock holder......LOL
rolln writes: "We can also boycott McDonalds http://www.boycottmcdonalds.com/
The Mac Attack just attacked our family and faith."
McDonald's USA spokesman Bill Whitman said, "Hatred has no place in our culture."
Who's right? I do know that I hate McDonald's hamburgers.
Prophet, you wrote:
"Daniel,
You said '...you have to do the right things and trust there is a good greater than yourself or your own personal interests.'
"Amen. Unfortunately, most people don't believe in any greater good than themselves. That's the position this world has gotten intself into."
Prophet, hasn't the world ALWAYS been in this position? I remember finding out what low percentages of colonial Americans identified with any church. Of course, this does not mean that they might not have studied their Bibles at home.
Then if heaven is all around us, as you pointed out, then some of these people walking around are dead?
And if heaven is a physical place, God is physical, and so are angels. And if God is physical, He cannot be everywhere at once. And if He is physical, then the Bible is wrong when it says that God is spirit. And if angels are physical, how come we can't see them. And if angels are physical, then demons must be physical. And if demons are physical, then why can't we see them as well? And if heaven is physical, why doesn't our body go there when we die. I've been to a lot of funerals, and each one had a body. And if heaven is physical, of what purpose is our spirit?
Prophet-
The scripture says that Jesus ascended body and soul into heaven. Therefore it must be physical.
We can also boycott McDonalds http://www.boycottmcdonalds.com/
The Mac Attack just attacked our family and faith.
Daniel,
You said "...you have to do the right things and trust there is a good greater than yourself or your own personal interests."
Amen. Unfortunately, most people don't believe in any greater good than themselves. That's the position this world has gotten intself into.
"Why did God WANT to create a universe HE KNEW he would ultimtely destroy."
Why do people produce things they know will eventually wear out?
Why do people form rock bands when they know only a small % actually last?
There are many expensive products which result in much waste to produce. We value the product and simply accept the waste as what is required to produce the product. The idea is to be on the product side of the equation and not the waste end.
Ok try this one! Were I to havea choild if I knew it was going to hell? Well, if I knew it was going to hell, then I know God already must have indicated I have the child. I would follow God's command to have the child for God uses all things for good, even a child destined for hell. He may go to hel but he may save the life of an individual who ends up leading several sinners to Christ
At the foot of the cross all sin is equal. So yes a homosexual is the same as a thief or a murderer. the argument that I was made that way is true. The fall of man in the garden of Eden made all of us sinners from the day we were born. To say that homosexuality is a choice is also true. We are directed to take up our cross daily to follow Him. Is it any easier for an adulterer, rapsist, thief to take up thier cross more so than a homosexual? the answer is no, but we expect them too. God gave us whoo accept the saving grace of Jesus all the same ability equally to fight our fleshly desires. so yes you were born with the desire to sin(homosexuality) just as the thief is. Is it a choice you make each time. Yes it is. God said no man has a problem that hasn't been had before and defeated
To further explain (or muddy the water)....
I have a son in the Army. Sometimes people are selected to die.... They might not but their death may save tens or tens of thousands. It may not do any good at all. Still, you have to do the right things and trust there is a good greater than yourself or your own personal interests.
"Daniel Paul: Would you have had one of your children if you had known that child was going to go to hell when it died?"
OK...this question is based on an underlying question. Is God fair and just? I have pondered the concept of if young children go to heaven and the like. This is the question I was left with for all those types of questions. Please ponder what I am about to post before responding.
I believe that God IS fair and just. I believe no one goes to hell that doesn't deserve to be there. I also believe that children are a gift from the Lord. I do believe I as a parent am responsible for teaching them correctly. I am to be a good steward of my children.
With that said, I would have any child God gave to me. The question is one of free will. God is not responsible for our choices simply because He has allowed us to have a choice in the first place. Without that choice we could do no wrong and therefore our existance would be moot. Because children have a free will it is required of parents to respect and do their best to shape that will. However, parents are not responsible for the choices the child makes and it would be disrespectful of parents to deny a child the right to choose for themseves as adults. (This is why I disagree with abortion. It denies the child the right to choose for themselves if they will live or die.)
So, yes I would simply because I believe God is fair and just. Therefore, He has a reason for everything even if I don't like it.
lina---I don't doubt you don't understand. We do not have a common frame of ref. One of the thinks I had to learn when discussing religion and phylos. was that each person has their own basis of understanding.
You don't believe in a relationship with God. I do. Neither position is correct based on us or our understanding. The correctness of the position is based on the existance of God.
People believed the Earth was flat for quite some time. That didn't keep it from being so. Popular science is giving evidence of a really bad flood and is saying it was caused by a meteor. The Bible talks about a flood and did so thousands of years ago.
Care to discuss quantum physics? Just because I do not agree with the theory doesn't keep me from wanting to understand the concept.
Simply put... it is far easier for you to not take my position seriously than it is for you to understand it.
Jesus needs to be known more than anything. He is the way. He is the truth. He is the life. Today, we have too many confessing Christians that know...
More about the T.V. guide than the bible
More about their favorite movie star than Jesus Christ
More about their vision than the heavenly vision
More about going to a church than being a live member in the Church
More about walking in the flesh than in the Spirit
More about vain traditions and rituals than life in the Spirit
More about dressing like harlots than dressing in modesty
More about play than pray
People must see Jesus, and for them to see Jesus in us, we must come to our own finality, saying, "He must increase, but I must decrease" (John 3:30) and "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil 3:10).
rolln4him,
I encountered the same opposition over "Holiday Party". I made a stink about it and got threatened with termination.
LOL. That timeless adage "Curiosity killed the cat." LOL. I try not to let curiosity get the best of me, unless it's something I've introduced, not something someone else introduced. I knew that diogenes was trying to use a question of entrapment, and not only that, it really was an inane question. Why not ask "If I knew that heaven and hell were real and that I was never going to go to heaven, would I kill myself?" Foolish questions.
prophet, this is kind of weird I was going to make that same statement in my response back, about the rock thing, but I guess I am just a curious kind of guy, after all I did agree to take the Biggie Challenge. He never did tell me if I passed or not?!
And to answer diogenes' question.
I don't waste my time with foolish questions (as the Bible says we shouldn't). If thought there was even a remote chance that I could know that my child were going to hell, then I would probably hazard an answer. That question is right up there witht the age old question "If God can do anything, can He make a rock so big that He couldn't move it?"
Foolish questions from a foolish mind.
tliml,
And why have you suddenly changed your view of heaven?
tliml,
Please reference the scripture to back your argument
jj, just for curiousity's sake let me answer your question, if I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt I would bring a child into this world who was predestined by God to go to hell no matter what, no I would not have that child.
By the way, Prophet, I went to a Protestant service and I kind of liked it. The overdone orchestra was quite entertaining. And I just loved your spin on kareoke with the large screens with words on them and a red dot that helps you follow along.
Prophet-
As I remember you had trouple with a yes or no as well. Well I worked hard on a long answer but it was deleted so here is a short one. It doesn't matter where heaven is, but it is physical. Perhaps it is in another dimension. I don't know. But the bible says it is physical.
Hi lima,
I wonder have you ever wondered where your rationality comes from. Do you believe that thought that arises as an artifact of arbitrary and non rational natural processes and be trusted as rational.
Also have you ever wondered why you care enough about this to engage in these posts. I mean if nature is all there is and all of our actions (and thoughts) are byproducts of behavioral traits that have species survival advantage then who cares about this whole debate. I mean unless this kind of conversation is supportive of increasing your reproductive opportunities isn't it evolutionarily maladaptive behavior. Don't get me wrong I believe in the scientific method and that the theory of evolution is valid its just not all I believe.
jj,
we could say the same thing to you. "What are you talking about? I'm not following where you're going with that?"
There is no dodge. There was simple honesty.
I CAN tell you I know someone who loves people so much that He sent His Son to be born, suffer and die to allow people to come live with Him. Would you like to meet Him? I could introduce you two.
Quit avoiding the question. It's a simple "yes" or "no". How hard can it be?
Answer the question already . . . or are you afraid of the implications?
Prophet: What are you talking about? I'm not following where you're going with that?
diogenes,
Have you stopped beating your wife?
wb, prophet and believer: Don't dodge the question; answer it. Would you have a child knowing that positively it was going to hell?
The closest I can say is I have had four, knowing that all four of them COULD go to hell.
It's impossible to answer since the scenario is an impossible scenario to begin with.
We don't know whether our children are going to hell or not. Just as we don't know if we'll live to see tomorrow.
jj, in response to your rather say what question, would you?
Amazing........
I take it that means none of you would?
Shhhhhh.....they think they're the only one's in here.
I thought we had some already here.
TA-DA!!!
And just like that, a post-modernists shows up.
Daniel Paul: Would you have had one of your children if you had known that child was going to go to hell when it died?
lina,
Therein lies the problem. As passe as it sounds it's still true: True Christianity is about a relationship, not a religion. Until you truly have a relationship with God, you will never get it.
You see, you don't have to abide by all the "rules" in order to become a Christian. When I became a Christian I didn't immediatly quit sinning. I didn't even desire to relenquish most of my sinful habits. God understood. But as I deepened my relationship with God I found myself WANTING to give up these habits.
Religion= "I have to!"
Christianity= "I want to!"
I don't know if that sheds any light on the subject, but I sure hope it does.
I mean Daniel Paul - I'm sorry but when you say things like : "The concept of religion was developed to substitute for the relationship man lost in the garden." I just can't take you seriously. Considering all the absurd creation stories across all major religions, it is just unbelievable to me that actual adults can believe that story actually happened. I'm mean..really? You think this happened? It's mind-boggling.
And yes HL - I am a woman! A free-thinking woman whose beliefs are not pre-determined, pre-provided, or pre-set. I think with my head and use logic to justify my beliefs. As such, they are malleable and adjustable to new evidence. I would love to live in a world where everyone had such flexibility of thought.
And Prophet - I find it no substance in the Bible. Just orders. Like the Koran. An attempt to control the masses. It works for you. Great. Not for me. There is just no enough evidence for the claims of the Bible. There is much evidence in the works of Darwin, Einstein, and Watson (at least to me). The direction of our species has seemingly been heading in the right direction but at the expense of religion. Religion only comes to terms with scientific evidence stubbornly and often by conveniently reinterpreting its own texts to fit the new realities - essentially to save its own skin and retain a shred of legitimacy. Think of the world we're in. Evangelicals are obsessed with pro-life, anti-gay, anti-stem cell research, pro-Israel anti-diplomacy, anti-science issues (evolution, contraception, vaccination against HPV). They seemingly believe that failing to support these initiatives will bring out the end of the World. Can you think of anything more delusional? What 2 mature adults do naked in the privacy of their own home trumping fighting poverty? Consequently, not only do I find religious belief delusional, but harmful. That's why it should be privatized. The secular world doesn't need your picketing, your whining, your end-of-Western-Civilization-as-we-know-it doomsday scenarios. We don't need to be reminded of God's word or the Rapture. Not only do I know your texts well, I freely disbelieve in them.
I'll never get this. I will never understand god's purpose/need/want for creating a universe he will destroy, and so many billions of people, most of whom will burn in hell forever. Considering the vast amount of unbiased research conducted by the secular world, for the benefit of all humanity, religion has, in my eyes, been severely weakened; almost to the point of absolute dismissal. I really dislike the requirement for morality the religious ascribe to their texts. The world is less violent today because of the increasing absence of religion. That is obvious. Let's just take God out of the equation and privatizing him. There is no hope in weaving together the diverse beliefs of 6 billion into one universal religion. Muslims, Jews, and Hindus believe as strongly in their god(s) as you all do. So much so, they fear your afterlife. At one point do you say: I just have faith in my religion. I don't need to bark orders at anyone else. My faith has done little for the benefit of humanity (perhaps only for me in that provides me solace in the face of impending death). Humanity has been the only real driver of beneficial change. That is a fact.
I grew up with a good, stong and loving father. Maybe that is one reason I have never "worried" about my heavenly father. I guess I am one of the people who (I hope not mistakenly) believes that "the Universe is unfolding as it should."
lina- It really is so simplistic that many just miss it. God calls himself our Father. I have children. They range in age from 25 down to 2 (if you don't keep having kids you have to mow your own lawn when you get old... ). I don't 'crave groveling' from them. I'm their father and I love them. I want what's best for them. I want a good relationship with them.
Many of the parables in the Gospels is about how a good father loves his children used as an example of God the Father. Every dad wants to be loved and respected by his children. So does God.
The main problem is those who have not had much of an example when it comes to what a father is suppose to be like. People transfer the image of their dad onto God. My dad was not perfect by any stretch of the imagination and he would be the first to say so. Still, he was and is a good dad. Yet, I still had to look to the Bible for the true definition of what God the Father was like.
There are two sides of God that we see in the Bible. The Old Testament shows how God the Father is when we are not in a right relationship with Him. The New Testament shows how God the Father is when we ARE in a right relationship with Him. This is why a child who accepts the authority of their dad has a WAY better impression of their dad than someone who is constantly rebelling against him.
There are basic laws of physics that describe the universe. These have been discovered by man. Interestingly, science can only describe what can be repeated and measured. To date, nothing like that has been found for the spiritual world, even though many have described similar experiences across cultures and time.
Anthropologists have found certain universals as well. Do not harm 'people' (which might be defined differently in each culture). Do not lie to 'people'. etc. Man tends to create 'religion'. Some think these are utilitarian in nature. But another explanation is that these are basic laws of morality God provided, and people in each culture have discovered them. Which is right? They are both correct.
hlerwin--it's been said that Christianity is on begger telling another begger where the bread is. Unfortunately, many people who were poor in their early adulthood (like when they are first married) easily forget how much of a struggle it is for those just starting out. Still, some of us remember and try to give some help along the way!
It's the same here. Some of us who have been Christians for a while DO forget sometimes but we still try! :-)
I have a friend who is a computer guru who is a bit different from most MCSEs that I have known...he still can speak English when he explains things to us lower computer forms.... It's about connecting and caring enough to help.
"I have lived in or visited countries who are hindu, muslim, Jewish and buddist to name a few. They are all driven by 'what you do'. Biblical Christianity is based on what you are and become as a result of a relationship with Jesus the Christ," Daniel Paul wrote.
I think many Buddhists live as "what they are." Daoists, too, and maybe some Muslims (Sufis?). But you cannot change the definition to suit your sect. Buddhism is a religion, as is Daoism and Islam, just as Christianity is. Christianity (even "true, real, actual Christianity) is a religion. wbmoore says he does not use corny old saws, but to say "Christianity, not religion" is a tired old saw. It is simply not so. (Aren't you pretty sure that some Shiite does not consider HIS faith to be just another religion? It's above mere religion. Fundamentalist Christians are not alone in believing their faith is the ONLY WAY.)
Lina,
So lying is good? Stealing is good? Hurting peoples feelings is good? Being selfish is good? Child Porn is good? Abortion is good? Abuse is good? Not one of us is truly "good". All of us do things we shouldn't. To say we are mostly basically good people is to ignore truth.
God is righteous and holy. No sin can exist in His presence. His very goodness requires it.
Its like saying, I want to come into your house, but want to come in through the window instead of the front door, and I want to come in at 3am instead of 1pm, and want to use filthy shoes on your carpet instead of taking off the shoes. If I want to come into your hose, I have to do it the way YOU want me to. Heaven is God's and HE gets to set the rules.
But God provided a remedy for that. THAT is where faith comes in.
"It's like having "blind faith" by saying I just believe it and that's all there is to it."
I think the point can be made very clear that Jesus doesn't expect blind faith. After all, he did make it a point to heal many 'blind' people....
Aside from that...he kept saying to the 'learned' people "do you not know the scripture?" I'd say he wanted us to know what we believe and why. It is just as easy to not believe something for no reason as it is to believe something for no reason. Could this be why many will fall away in the last days?
I admire the energy lina has put into this discussion. Even though I just wrote quite a few word, I would not have pursued my points as far as lina did. Not for answers that seem so "pat." As I said before, can we really even hear one another. wbmoore says he understands because he once was as we are now. It seems to me that if he was really like me once, he has no memory of it. His mind has been transformed. And I'm sure he would say, "Amen!"
"Religion and the notion of god(s) is an invention of the human mind as far as I can tell."
Ready for this...you're right! The concept of religion was developed to substitute for the relationship man lost in the garden. Religion is full of 'what you do' instead of 'what you are'. This is the key difference between Christianity and religion. We could no longer 'be' in a relationship with God so we developed religions so we could look like we had the relationship. It's kind of like those people who don't really have money. They have the real nice house but there's really nothing inside.
The book of Romans says we lost our relationship with God when Adam sinned and are able to have the relationship with God again because of Jesus' sacrifice.
I have lived in or visited countries who are hindu, muslim, Jewish and buddist to name a few. They are all driven by 'what you do'. Biblical Christianity is based on what you are and become as a result of a relationship with Jesus the Christ.
go to www.notreligion.com
I think I began to lose my point in that last post. But all these "reasons" God supposedly had for creating the universe and us are so anthropomorphic. Now, there is no reason (if it's ALL true in the Bible) that heaven should not be something life earth (or earth a poor knock-off of heaven), but almost every tribe inthe world has some kind of story like this, always with "heaven" or some afterlife a perfected version of the world we know here. If God was real, I would hope that he runs things in a way that is almost nothing like the way my wife and I run our family. I mean, we have raised 4 productive, well-adjusted, happy, kind, considerate children, the youngest born in 79 (however old that is now). We did our best, and it worked out well. SURELY what we did is no ta pale reflection of the way God "raises" us! I'd prefer a God that is perfect. Lemme take a break and find my point again.
I understand what you are saying. It's like having "blind faith" by saying I just believe it and that's all there is to it. People need substance. And the Bible encourages us to be ready to give an account for the hope that is in us, so we should know why we believe. That is why I'm doing a study and teaching a class on apologetics. To help me, and others, understand our faith more, which will make us better and more effective witnesses.
I returned about 20 minutes ago, and I have tried to study the conversation between lina and the others (wbmoore, believer & others?). Also, I am trying to be objective. I can see easily that there are people of good will on both sides. Can we really even hear one another. I think lina (forgive me for imputing any attributes to you) has an analytical and scientic mind. But I think she (she, right? not that it matters) has knownsome Christians in her life, maybe even in her family...somebody close to her anyway and of whom she might be fond. She is TRYING to understand your "arguments." But your "arguments" don't even sound like arguments to lina. She even told you that she could understand it if yiu said, "We can't explain this. It's just our faith." That, I think, would make sense to lina. The reverence for scripture seems "over the top," I think to lina...and to me, too, really. Your conversion has altered your mind insome way. I think you would agree, you Christians. You might say (again, forgive my "characterizing" people I don't even know): yes, our minds have been cleared up. "Let the mind be in me that is in Christ Jesus," you may pray. The scales have falllen from your eyes. But, no offense, to lina and me (and others?), it is as if we are speaking with people who have lived through an invasion of the body snatchers. There is NO reasoning with you. I, also (not that it matters to you), could acceptthe idea that "this is just my faith, and I can't explain it." I know that you people did not leave your brains at the church door (outside), and I know that it is possible to be a nuclear physicist AND a Mormon. But that strikes me as just the screwiness and diversity of humankind. Maybe lina I are simply are not among the "elect." She and I were never (from the beginning of time) meant to "get it." It's just the way we are.
lina,
God created us in His image. He is spirit. We are spirit. That is as far as our similarities go.
"So created people knowing who would be saved and who would died from the beginning."
Aw, now you are discussing pre-knowledge versus predestination. :)
God created people, and because He is outside time, He can see who chooses Him.
So you're assuming that nearly 2/3 of humanity (myself included) that ultimately rejects the concept of God, but leads good, wholesome, moral existences will die and burn forever. This is because, God, who evidently looks human, since he created us in his own image, made 2 people out of mud, placed them in an exotic garden in what we know is today's Iraq, forbid them from eating a magic piece of fruit (knowing what they would do), and also creating the snake (knowing its intentioins), that it would dupe these new creations into betraying God which now (innocently) have inherited from these mythical figures. And God knew this from the get-go yet went ahead, placed us all in this hopelessly inescapable situation of choosing between fantasy and evidence, and judged us for not loving him enough. Yeah, you guys are totally with it.
So created people knowing who would be saved and who would died from the beginning.
We're going in circles. :) I've answered you, repeatedly.
God desires to share a relationship of love with us. Its really that simple.
If He simply created us loving Him, then it would not be love. Love is a choice, which if we were created loving Him we would not be free to make, therefore, it would not be love.
So He created a one-purpose, limited lifespan, universe to provide an environment that would nurture people who could come to choose to love Him.
What was God's purpose in creating a universe he ultimately knew he would destroy.
The ultimate outcome is a bunch of people who love God. Getting rid of the single use, limited lifespan object we call universe is just part of the process to get the people who chose to love God.
I don't buy your second argument. An all-powerful being would not require your love. I can assure you that.
Explain God's purpose for creating the universe knowing full-well the outcome.
"Why is God creating his creation knowing he will ultimately destroy it."
It is simply a process God used to accomplish a purpose. The purpose is more important than the object. The object is disposable. Is the purpose of a airplane in its existence? No, its purpose is in what it was created FOR - to move people and cargo from place to place. It is intended to have a certain life span. Once its purpose and lifespan is completed, it is destroyed. The same is true for the universe.
"Why is God creating people he commands to worship him if he is all-powerful? "
God creates people because He is a relational being. He loves and wants to share that love with others who truly love Him. If there was no free will, there would be no love - the people would be robots required to do what they were programmed to do, rather than people who can choose to love Him. He tells us to worship because it is part of what WE need - not Him. Worship provides a means of communicating with God, and learning more about Him.
"These two unanswerable points indicate to me that there is no such thing as a personal God."
But these points HAVE been answered. repeatedly. you just dont like the answers. And that's fine. It takes different things to convince each of us. Its your choice to believe or not.
I'm fixated on this point. Why is God creating his creation knowing he will ultimately destroy it. Why is God creating people he commands to worship him if he is all-powerful? These two unanswerable points indicate to me that there is no such thing as a personal God.
Lina,
you seem to be stuck on something that temporal - temporary. This universe is meant to be destroyed. It was created to provide something, and once its purpose it accomplished, it will no longer be needed.
For example, I purchase paper plates knowing they have a limited lifespan - 1 use each. Once the purpose for the paper plate is complete, I destroy it. So one I use the paper plate, I destroy it.
The universe has one use - once its purpose is accomplished, it will not be needed.
But he is still new the outcome, didn't he? Why go through with it then?
Because He is relational (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), and wanted to share His love with people who wanted to love Him.
Ok - again. Why did God WANT to create a universe HE KNEW he would ultimtely destroy.
He has no need to do so.
There is a difference between wanting to do something to show love and needing to do something.
I like to spend time with my kids. I'm relational that way. Its not something *I* need, but it IS something they need.
Why God need to do that?
Lina,
That's like saying if I collect wood for fire, and light the fire, it will burn the wood up, so I had better not collect the firewood.
The purpose of the fire is not to burn the firewood, it is to generate light and heat. The same is true for this universe - its purpose is not in its existance, but in what it does. It provides an environment for people to come to choose whether to know God or not.
Still, the same question remains. God created the universe knowing he would have to destroy it. It seems going to all this trouble is really not worth it unless God needed some serious entertainment.
Becasue God is loving, righteous holy, and just, He allows people to make choices. He would not be any of those things if He did not. Just because you dont like the answer does not mean its not true.
People make choices. Those choices affect others. How you feel about it does not change the truth.
My life was unfulfilling as someone who did not belief in anything. It was unfulfilling as someone who did not believe in Christ. I am fulfilled in knowing Christ.
There is a diference between a myth and a reality that people can not measure. Just because you can not measure something does not mean it does not exist.
But as for your question as to why, I answered it. Because HE loves and wanted to share that love.
We're moving beyond the point I made before. God's love me but (probably unlike the most henious criminal or mass-murderer) would allow me to burn in hell for eternity. Not 100 years. Eternity. By that definition, there is no way he can truly love me. And please don't tell me I have a choice. Like I had mentioned in this entire thread, I'm not willing to abandon science, my personal convictions, and simple human curiousity for blind belief. I couldn't even if I wanted to. It's impossible. And just becuase God gave you a sign of his love, that proves nothing. God also enabled the Holocaust and tsunamis and war. Did babies deserve to die while God granted YOU a wish? Please!
Lina,
"wbmoore: Why is God commanding us to worship him? Why does he crave our groveling? our submssion? He can do and have all he wants at any time. What is the need for all this? This world? What for"
I dont think its a craving. I think its a desire to be in such a deep freindship with us that we can not imagine. As I said earlier, I think He commands worship because it is what is best for us, not because it is something He craves/needs. God needs nothing from you. He is self-sufficient. There is no need. There is desire to show you love, because HE loves you.
I'm sorry that your life was unfulfilled as a practicing witch. As a non-believer in superstition, it strikes me you replaced one myth for another. If Jesus made you better, congratulations. I really want no part of it.
Still, the same question remains. God created the universe knowing he would have to destroy it. It seems going to all this trouble is really not worth it unless God needed some serious entertainment.
Lina,
“My point is this: I probably couldn't have these discuss with evangelicals. And because of that (and the predictablity of their irrational responses), I would choose not to be friends with them. But evangelicals won't keep quiet or keep their beliefs to themselves. Their texts forbid them from being quite (spreading the Gospel). In doing so, they reject the notion that others, myself included, will never accept their texts and don't believe there are any eternal consequences for doing so. To us, it's just really annoying noise that in many instances, makes life miserable for others (like woman, gays, religious minorities, liberals, scientists, etc.).â€Â
That would be your choice, of course. I used to feel like that, when I was a witch. But I asked ‘god’ for a sign of whether Christ was really the only way to be with him, and I got it. It was something whose timing some would dismiss as a coincidence, but it is something I consider to be real.
Lina,
“If God is perfect, his creation would have been perfect. Imagine this: God creates Adam and Eve knowing they would sin. Why? Parents and children are not the same as God and his creation. That is obvious. Why create this wonderful creation only to know you will have to destroy it in the end. It just makes no sense to me. “
Because He wants you to make the CHOICE to believe or not. If He had made everything so that people HAD to believe and HAD to love, etc. It would not have been fair/just, or loving. He made us in His image - so in some respects, we are like God. We have the ability to make choices.
The image I use is parenthood. Its something I know. I realize the analogy breaks down, since we are NOT God, but I think its close.
When my wife and I first married (before kids), we purchased some nice furniture. Then kids came along. They really beat it to death, it looks terrible. Once the kids are mature enough to not destroy things by accident or on purpose, we will replace that furniture.
I think the creation of the universe, knowing it will be destroyed and remade, is like that. It was designed to be used to help us grow and mature and make choices so we could come to know God and choose Him.
“Plus, by excepting the Bible (or really any religous text for that matter), I would have to deny the work of millions of scientists, philosophers, and writers; those that dedicate their lives; committing themsevles to the betterment of humanity. I would have to dismiss their scarifice in its entirety solely upon faith. I just cannot do that. I am swayed more by the works of Darwin than the apostle Paul. I really don't fear the wrath of God for denying the text he allegedly inspired to write because I can't possibly bring myself to believe in God knowing what I know now. “
I know physicist, biologists, chemists, engineers, doctors, dentists, pharmacists, mathematicians who have not abandoned science, but have embraced Christ. I do not believe you have to leave your brain at the door when you become a Christian.
Why do that feel the need to do that? It's annoying and insulting. It's also counter-productive.
lina, evangelicals come in all flavors and yes on many issues we do agree but on several there is a great divide in the evangelical community and how we respond to even those issues we agree on there is at times much disagreement. So I would ask you not to put all evangelicals in the same basket on all issues, thanks. Even at the Southern Baptist Convention this year there were probably the same protestors who came to the pride parade your talking about holding up probably many of the same signs they held up at the parade speaking to those of us in the SBC.
But that's just the thing believer. Most "progressives" know the evangelical point of view. You don't need to preach or stage protests at gay pride parades. We know it because's it pre-provided and quite simple. It is impossible to convince others, particularly in big city American were creativty flourishes, to reject knowledge in favor of blind belief (faith). Live your life as Christ then - treat others the way you wanted to be treated, don't judge, condemn, or belittle (because that's the way secular America views you).
lina, I assumed by your questions you were genuinely wanting answers from an evangelical point of view which would very likely include a biblical basis for that view, but based on your last post it appears your whole goal was to arrive at your view of evangelicals that you had already, am I correct in that assumption?
Also, true evangelicals see themselves as a work in progress as well, becoming more like Christ on a daily basis, we don't believe we've arrived by any means of the imagination. And the more we become like Christ the more effectively God can use us and we can join Him in doing His work so that many more will come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ before it's everlastingly too late. We can't and won't force anyone to become a Christian but hopefully we will live our lives in such a way we'll make others thirsty for what we have a personal, growing, and intimate relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
And you need to realize that the others don't esteem the Bible as you do. They also don't need your preaching either. I hope these back and forth conversations demonstrate that "heathens" think about life-related questions as much as you do. The only difference is our answers are a "work-in-progress" and not pre-provided. Could it possibly be that thought-process and desire for knowledge which drives socioeconomic evolution? Dare I say that evangelicals will rarely contribute to these advacnements because their answers are already pre-provided as opposed to thought through? This is why faith is personal and not political.
lina, I can't say the last part because and I know this is going to bug the fire out of you, but God's Word says that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, by Christ alone. But I totally agree with the first part of your statement.
lina, I'm sharing my heart and if that comes accross as preaching it's not meant to, but I make no apologies for it either. As far as how can we be so certain, I don't know if I can rationally explain it, but as one preacher used to say "I know what I know I know!" and it's because God's Holy Spirit lives in me.
Why can't you just say: "you know what, these are impossible questions to answer but I just have faith. I accept that others require more than faith to believe."
lina, our posts crossed each other, but if I ever come accross that way with regards to non-Christians not thinking about these things, please call me on it because that is one of the last things I would want to insinuate, thanks believer.
And what makes you assume I need require you to preach? Did I not make a strong case for God's non-existence? You haven't demonstrated why God felt life needed to take place.
Did you respond to conversations or preach?
lina, but you say you couldn't talk to evangelicals and yet your talking with me and wb. There is no doubt in my mind that God is working in your life and hopefully one day you and Him will get this worked out and you'll come to know Him as I know Him, take care, believer
And believer, this is what is infuriating about evangelicals. Not only do they provide answers as if they absolutely know for sure (who can possibly answer these questions with certainy?), but they assume the rest of us "heathen" don't already think about this stuff.
Again - what would have been the point of your scenario. And I'm sorry but I can't reject the science I have come to love and accept. The "damage" so to speak, has been done. If there are consequences for using my brain, so be it. A "fair" God would understand.
lina, a lot of powerful questions, God created this universe for mankind and yes there will come a day when He will destroy this now imperfect universe, but in its place will be a new heaven and a new earth as perfect as the one He created in the first place and it will be a place where there is no sin of any kind, no sickness, no death, and no suffering and it will be inhabited by God's people, His angels, and Himself.
Although the Bible is not a science book it is in total agreement with all true science. The only science a person would need to consider giving up would be those so-called scientific facts that either violate or contradict the Word of God. And as far as I know there are very few scientic facts that do.
wbmoore: Why is God commanding us to worship him? Why does he crave our groveling? our submssion? He can do and have all he wants at any time. What is the need for all this? This world? What for?
If God is perfect, his creation would have been perfect. Imagine this: God creates Adam and Eve knowing they would sin. Why? Parents and children are not the same as God and his creation. That is obvious. Why create this wonderful creation only to know you will have to destroy it in the end. It just makes no sense to me.
Plus, by excepting the Bible (or really any religous text for that matter), I would have to deny the work of millions of scientists, philosophers, and writers; those that dedicate their lives; committing themsevles to the betterment of humanity. I would have to dismiss their scarifice in its entirety solely upon faith. I just cannot do that. I am swayed more by the works of Darwin than the apostle Paul. I really don't fear the wrath of God for denying the text he allegedly inspired to write because I can't possibly bring myself to believe in God knowing what I know now.
My point is this: I probably couldn't have these discuss with evangelicals. And because of that (and the predictablity of their irrational responses), I would choose not to be friends with them. But evangelicals won't keep quiet or keep their beliefs to themselves. Their texts forbid them from being quite (spreading the Gospel). In doing so, they reject the notion that others, myself included, will never accept their texts and don't believe there are any eternal consequences for doing so. To us, it's just really annoying noise that in many instances, makes life miserable for others (like woman, gays, religious minorities, liberals, scientists, etc.).
If God
lina, the world God created was perfect but thanks to the sin of man it no longer is. When Adam and Eve chose to sin the consequences of their sin impacted all of creation. There is no record of how long it was before Adam and Eve sinned, but prior to that they were one with God and all of creation was in perfect harmony with one another.
"I believe your phrases "God does not need worship" is contradictory to the Bible. "
A command to worship is not the same thing as needing our worship. I command my children to do things when they are young - this does not indicate it is for me, but for them.
This is not contradictory.
"Anyway, you still claim that God deserves worship at then of your response. Again, contradictory. "
Please explain how. If I do something worthy of recognition, does that not indicate I deserve recognition for that? Again, this is not contradictory.
“At the end of the day, this argument still does not make sense. God created us and tells us to obey him and worship him but gives us free will? Still inexplicable. And still an insufficient response. Why start the world knowing it will end because of sin? Why create Adam and Eve knowing they would ultimately sin?“
My wife and I had children, knowing they will test the boundaries and rules and be disobedient. Should we then not have had the children? No, of course not. It simply mean we have to teach the children to obey. We have to teach them how to be adults. We have to teach them how to be in relationships. We have to teach them how to communicate. We have to teach them what love is. The children have the ability to make their own choices and will suffer consequences for them, good or bad. But I don’t think we should not have children justr because we know they will be disobedient.
The same is true for God – He knew we would make choices He would prefer we not make. HE wanted people to choose Him, rather be forced to 'love' Him (what kind of love would that be?). But He also knew what it would take to help us become mature people who choose Him and love Him. So He put into place and motion this system we call the universe, so we would have that opportunity.
Chicago - still, the makes no sense. If God is perfect, he would created a perfect creation. That wasn't the case. And yes, the weather was beautiful..even the rain.
I believe your phrases "God does not need worship" is contradictory to the Bible. Anyway, you still claim that God deserves worship at then of your response. Again, contradictory.
At the end of the day, this argument still does not make sense. God created us and tells us to obey him and worship him but gives us free will? Still inexplicable. And still an insufficient response.
Why start the world knowing it will end because of sin? Why create Adam and Eve knowing they would ultimately sin?
Dont confuse preknowing with predetermination. Since God is outside time, He knows everything that will happen, simply by looking at it in time. But this is a very different thing than predetermination. Predetermination is God deciding what will happen and when - these are two very different things.
As for why...
Worship is more about being in a relationship with God than anything else. God made it possible for us to talk with Him, to feel His peace, to feel His love. Some of us limit God, and so He accepts that limitation and deals with us as we would like - through dreams, emotions, words, etc. But to commune with God is an awesome thing.
God does not need worship, we do. It helps us be in contact with Him. It helps us remember that HE is our creator. It helps us not be prideful. It helps us not be selfish. God wanted to share His love with us, so made it possible for Him to do this.
He is jealous in that He protect His namesake - like a man protecting his reputation. He is the creator, He is righteous, He is holy, He is just, He is love, etc. And so He does things to help show who He is.
God created everything good - this means that the ABILITY to choose to obey or disobey is good. HE created a perfect SYSTEM. In the end, His system will be shown to be perfect yet again. Its just that as the cogs and wheels turn and people make choices, the individual things in that system may make mistakes or bad choices or be harmed. But in fact, the system is doing what it was intended to do - it is gorwing people who believe in Him and choose Him our of their own free will, and love Him and will give Him His proper place in their lives and give Him the glory He deserves.
I've been a huge fan of the philosopher, Simone Weil. According to Weil, before God created anything, everything was perfect since God was the only thing to exist. So, God's greatest act of love was creating something other than God which, of course, was imperfect.
That's about as close to an answer as to why there is affliction in this world.
Weil rocks.
BTW, Lina, I was at the Pride Parade in Chicago as well. Wasn't the weather gorgeous? I think it was the first time, ever, that it wasn't blazing hot.
That makes absolutely no sense. At the end of the day, predetermination makes the only sense if God is all-knowing and all-powerful. Basically, we have no free will.
Speaking of which, why does God need our worship? Why is he a "jealous" God? Was he bored in the lonely blackness of the universe? Did he need a little entertainment? If he just wanted to share his love (as you say), why? For what purpose? Was his all-powerfulness not enough?
If God created something, then He exists outside that thing. If He created the universe in all its dimensions, including time, then He exists outside the universe and time. Therefore, He can see what is happening at any given point in time or place in the universe.
The best picture I can provide is watching a horse race from a helicopter. You can see any point in the race any time you choose. But we are limited by time, so we can not see any point in time. God is not so limited - He can see everything all the time in all places.
The great question is how does God balance our free will with His ordaining things will happen. Does He make things happen, does He allow things to happen, does He prevent things from happening? I think all three.
But to answer your question, yes, God knows who will choose Him and who will not. But since not everything has yet occurred, He has to allow things to run to completion. In doing so, He is being patient with us as we fumble around trying to decide what we're going to do.
hlerwin, thanks for the responses and I know that I am in no way immune to doing the same thing. I do agree that our two different views of the Great Commission tends to send us in different directions on issues such as witnessing. Because many non-believers visit this website I see it as a great opportunity to share the plan of salvation with them depending on the issue being discussed and most importantly as the Lord leads me to.
This just strikes me as completely illogical. So, God knows RIGHT NOW who will go to heaven or hell, right?
lina,
I think at least part of it was so He could share His love. Many people have children to be able to feel and give love. And those children have to balance between being loving and obedient and respectful toward their parents and exercising their free will.
If you are a parent, you often feel you know what is best for your child. You want them to make choices that are best for them. Sometimes you arrange situations (or allow situations to develop/proceed) to help them learn.
The difference is, God is perfect. Gad makes no mistakes. He gave us free will so we could choose Him - he did not want robots, but loving people who want to fellowship with Him.
Why would God start the world in the first place? We have free will, yet we find ourselves in this hopelessly inescapable position of choosing between our own freedoms and the will of God.
hlerwin,
I know very few corny statements. But just because something may sound corny does not mean it is not true.
Thank you for the compliment concerning my posts.
However, concerning my apparent immunity to "any other argument from a perspective different from [my] own,"
It is not that I can not see the points others make. It is not that IO can not understand their position (although I admitI find it difficult to reconcile someone calling themselves Christian and not submitting to God's authority). It is that I have usually given great consideration to my positions, particualrly on matters the Bible directly addresses. I use the Bible as my final authority on all things. It is the manual for life. When someone makes a claim, I analyze it using what the Bible teaches. I have not come across any subject which can not be analyzed using the Bible. I started out as a non-believing witch, I became a believer and immediately began reading the Bible to try to justify my favorte sin. Then I read to determine if I could do something else I wanted to do. Etc. etc. I have never taken anyone's word on what the Bible supposedly teaches, but always read it for myself. Then when I understand what the Bible teaches, I try to put that into action in my life.
I have read about life, philosphy, psychology, science, history - but I find the most interesting reading is always about God, what He has done, and what He wants for and from us - which is found in the Bible.
As far as being rude, believer, it must have been with wbmoore. You know, we always save our harshest citicism for the people we care the most about. Just as with you, I expect, there are many comments here to which I would not take the trouble to respond. (That does not mean that I did not learn from any particular post, though sometimes I learn the opposite of what the poster had in mind.) I find wbmoore's posts so enlightening and articulate. Then I get frustrated with him when he sounds "immune" to any other argument from a perspective different from his own. Speaking of "different," I know I have learned at least one thing on this Web site in the couple of weeks since I found it. It must come from Christians' idea of the "Great Commission." When I examine my motives, I realize that I am not interested in changing anyone's ideas particularly. On the other hand, when people argue to the point of "witnessing" in these posts, they would actually like to change others' ideas. This is a real difference. I did not realize that the impulse to "convert" others (if that's the right verb) is so strong.
I deleted that last post quickly -- to correct TWO typos I saw!
believer, I'm sure I have lots of typos like that "d." But I had read "seperate" so often that I guess my school-marmish side welled up, and I sent that post off to Prophet. I agree with you that often this "ruins" the argument at hand. It comes across as a desperate, "nitpicky" (not to mention snide) little slap. Maybe I was in a peevish mood last night. (I was at a local county commission meeting from 7 until 11pm last night! Maybe I WAS desperate when I came home at quarter to midnight.) Sorry for being a jerk.... You know, if all of us could see each other's facial expressions and body language, we would not give or take offense so often. But when all we have is the printed word, we can pick up a tone or attitude that's not really there. (Not that I can't have some "attitude" in my posts. But when I want to insult someone, it's usually pretty clear.) Still, from my perspective it sometimes seems like a few people are just waiting, almost "coiled to strike." When a contrary opinion comes in, these people lash out. Of course, this happens from both sides of any argument.
hlerwin, did you notice in your post to prophet telling him to spell separate right you spelled learn with a d at the end. I see as well as make a number of spelling and grammatical errors all the time. But I don't see any point in pointing them out because I feel it would take away from the discussion and to me personally would tend to show weakness in the view of the one who is pointing it out. I can't answer for prophet but your post took a shot a wbs' comment and at his mispelling and you wonder why it wasn't well received. If you would have done it to me I may not have responded like prophet did but for some reason the word jerk would have come to mind. And here lately I've noticed you've been rude with several of your posts on various sites and that's really out of character for you and I wonder what's up with that?
Prophet, you wrote: "Is that all you can do now is nitpick spelling? I used to have a little bit of respect for your point of view, now you just squashed that. That's just pathetic."
That was not "nitpicking." The word "separate" is one of those often misspelled words, like cemetary as "cemetery." The "a" and "e" can be tricky in such words. If you think of the "par" in "separate" as a "part" that can be separated from the rest, it is easier to remember. If this advice destroys the "little bit of respect" that you had for my point of view, it must have been a very little bitty bit of respect indeed. And if you have never seen a "serious question" from a skeptic in these postings, you are not reading carefully enough. Why be so dismissive of the people with whom you disagree? Do you really think we want you to "play into our hands?" I am honestly not that interested in convincing you of anything. I realize that your beliefs are strongly held. Can you understand that some of us also hold our beliefs strongly? I mean, without shaking your finger at us, declaring that we will be separated from God for eternity. Of course, you don't always do that (and I am not ALWAYS flippant about my questions or comments). On this site, I have gotten serious answers to serious questions I have asked. Your last posting seems to just want to wave me away, as not worthy of your time or concern.
lina, isn't it odd that you appear to say your an atheist or an agnostic and in your post to prophet you seem to think you can answer for God. You asked us a question which is totally hypothetical, we answer it and then you tell one of us a God who doesn't exist would not like our answer, but the reality is He does exist so no one who has put their faith/trust in Him is hoping on His existance, but rather it is the skeptic who refuses to put their faith/trust in Him that will be held accountable for their unbelief.
hlerwin,
Is that all you can do now is nitpick spelling? I used to have a little bit of respect for your point of view, now you just squashed that. That's just pathetic.
And also, I have yet to find a skeptic come in here with a "serious question" (meaning a question to which they want an actual answer). Every skeptic, including you and lina, ask questions only to further your argument, not to learn. So please do not get frustrated because we do not play into your hands, and then start griping about spelling.
Sometimes an "outsider" will ask a serious question, only to be answered by about 30 lines of scripture. And all the answers are not in scripture, you know.
And lina really does have a point about how boring some Christians can be. We can all be boring at times. But often that "oneness in Christ" comes across in a Stepford-wife sort of way. Like that Chuck Colson. I try to read him, since I know he is bright, and he means well. But my eyes just glaze over in about the 2nd paragraph of anything he writes. It's.....boring.
I've heard it said that this life is the closest to hell a believer in Christ will ever come, and the closest to heaven a non-believer will ever come.
Where do you get these corny old saws, wbm?
And, prophet, since you use the term so often, leard to spell "separated." You can think of the "par" as a "part" (as in pars/partis) that can sePARate. I make typos all the time, but I think you need to just learn to spell that word.
lina,
I am compelled to answer your last comment. Going by what God has already said, the most offensive thing to Him would be ignoring what He has done to reach out to you. God loves you so much He sent His Son Jesus to pay the death penalty for your sins, so you can have eternal life. God inspired people to write down a record of Jesus' life and He preserved that written record so you can read it for yourself. Believing in Jesus does not offend God, but not accepting and even ridiculing His love and grace extended to you would sure do it. Please reconsider your stance towards God; He believes in you and desires to have a loving Father/child relationship with you.
I've heard it said that this life is the closest to hell a believer in Christ will ever come, and the closest to heaven a non-believer will ever come.
lina,
Only you would get out of my post that I'm only a Christian because I'm afraid of what will happen if I'm not.
Someday I may tell you of why I'm a Christian. But then again, it really wouldnt interest an atheist.
I disagree Prophet. Bet-hedging on God's existence is probably more offensive to an allegedly fair and all-knowing diety rather than admitting you were a skeptic who treated others with respect and love.
prophet, actually we're both speaking out of turn we're not right, God is right and we have both put our faith/trust in the fact that God is right, be blessed as you serve Him, believer
tliml, but lina does and that's who I was addressing and there is no biblical support for your response anyway it is simply your opinion, an opinion that most true evangelicals disagree with.
tliml,
Take your time. I'm in no hurry.
Believer,
Amen. If God did not truly exist, my life was not wasted. I lived a full, rewarding life with a morally profitable purpose. I grew and removed things from my life that were damaging. I grew more and more into a man of honor and integrity. And when it was over...that would be it.
But if I am right and God does exist...there will be countless people who do the same thing I did, but when they die they will be seperated from God for eternity. They will go to hell. Because they did not acknowledge Him, nor accepte His Son.
So far it sounds like being a Christian is far better in the long run than not being one.
Believer-
not true. If people did not have access to the knowledge of christ, they will not be damned.
Lina-
I want you to look some things up. Our Lady of Guadalupe. The Miracle of Lourdes. The Miracle of the Sun. Look at all of those things and tell me there is no God and that He/She is not in fact around us.
Prophet-
Still working on a response, sorry >.<
lina,
You said "You keep on repeating yourselves as if you are all the possessors of some wonderful information..."
Duh. If 2+2=4 is the truth, then tomorrow I'm going to say 2+2=4. And next year I'm going to say 2+2=4.
If what we say is the truth, why would we say anything else?
You say you get tired of listening to Christians say the same thing over and over. I get the same tiredness listening to gay rights activists. I could quote them in my sleep because they say the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.....
Just like you do.
Its sad to see people so arrogant and lost as to believe they create their own reality.
lina, let's say your right this whole Christianity thing is nothing but a hoot. I can honestly say I have really enjoyed living the Christian life, to see God take my life and use it for His glory, to know that God used me to make a differnce in the lives of other people, to know that God has spoken to me personally by His Holy Spirit through His Word, His Church, other people and the circumstances of life even if it was a fraud it would still be worth it. To see people and especially children come into the family of God, it was all worth it. It would be kind of like the movie "80 Days Around The World" even when Phineas J. Fogg thought he lost the wager he realized he had gotten so much more had he not taken the wager. So I guess even if I were to lose this wager I know my life was so much better than if I had not taken this wager. But you see I still believe with all my heart, mind, body, and soul that Christianity is the real deal.
Believer, I find it impossibly naive that you could believe such tales. Eternity in hell? I know that hell (or heaven) do not exist. I'm so certain of it that I'm willing to disbelieve despite the so-called risks. The point of this article suggests to me that more people are friends with gays than evangelicals because the latter are infuriatingly rigid about very childlike beliefs. And your commentary is proof of this. What if I told you with the same conviction that you have demonstrated to me that God is a myth. You spent your entire life shrouded in ignorance. You had this wonderful one-time shot at learning, feeling, and thinking and you squandered it on fear of death and being wrong. This is the way I see things.
lina, as far as God not being around that is an opinion that Christians do not adhere to but can we agree to disagree on that point because my sense is neither one of us is going to change the others opinion on that issue. The solace issue, I believe as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve which spiritually separated God from man there is a void left in the heart/soul of every person and even though we can temporarily fill this void, ultimately the only way to permanently fill this void is by entering into a personal relationship with God through Christ, so yes people can find solace with someone or something other than God but that solace will be temporary at best.
lina, the real problem is that people who die who have not entered into a personal relationship with God through Christ will not wither away but will be eternally seperated from God in hell for the rest of eternity and that is not God's desire and hopefully the desire of many Christians including myself and why we are joining God in reaching the lost for Christ.
See, you just don't get it. You keep on repeating yourselves as if you are all the possessors of some wonderful information, without which we all wither away. Your belief in Jesus as your savior has zero correlation with just about anything else: political processes, economic policies, social change, etc. You may think it does, but it doesn't. Why? Because God/Jesus (what have you) is not around us. You may think he, she, it is but it's not. It just isn't. And the only way you can make something happen is to do it yourself. Do you admit that many people find solace without religion?
lina, and for your information the Southern Baptist Convention has a Baptist Campus Ministries Group at Harvard and while my family an I were pastoring in Montpelier, Vermont in the late 90s they were having great success at reaching students with the "boring" Gospel.
Prophet-
I am preparing an answer to your question. In the meantime... I went to a protestant church on my vacation (we were staying with protestants who are very nice people) and I found it extremely entertaining. You accuse us of Cathletics (a very witty term I must say) protestants stand at every song XD rofl and what with the orchestra and the screens it was just like kareoke! XD
Its my experience that people who do not know God can study scripture all they want and never understand it - oh wait! That's in the Bible.
You'd be surprized how many people with genius IQs and how many artists and seekers of truth gravitate to God and the Bible and Christ.
Many of us have tried other religions and found them wanting. Humanism, Wicca, atheist, agnostic, buddhist, etc all have 'interesting' people in them. They're all lost and going to miss the ticket to be with God.
Christ loves us and wants us to believe in Him, that we might be saved.
lina, that's fine and I respect your right and desire to do that, but just because you don't want to be there please don't assume that those of us who are there are boring. As far as discoveries we have made the most awesome discovery a person can make that is a personal and intimate and growing relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ and it don't get no better than that.
Why can't you understand that there are a lot of people who study, understand, and utlimately dismiss the Bible and its contents as just a book. By default, your thoughts are well-defined and obviously you are comfortable with a rigidly interpreted worldview. Because of this, I would choose not to hang out with you. What would I learn? What value would you contribute to my own life experiences? Are you really going to say something new? None of your kind will be making any worthwhile new discoveries any time soon. That's a guarantee.
At the end of the day, your position is still boring. It's much more interested to learn as you go. And people who have such an open mind are generally more flexible, tolerant, and willing to learn. No surprise that areas of the US (and world) populated by these types are also the most advanced and best-educated. There are no Harvards in rural South Carolina, Kansas or Idaho. There's a reason for that.
lina, if predictability is your only requirement to make a person boring then there are a lot of boring people in this world regardless of their spiritual bent, but yes I believe the Bible but so do surgeons and mechanics trust in what they learn from books and tell me are they boring and who would you rather have operate on you a person who utilizes what they've learned from books or someone who doesn't read the instructions? But what you don't understand is until a person becomes a child of God the Bible can appear to be a boring book of dos and don'ts but to a believer they are so much more and yes the "boring" Bible even speaks to that when it says to those who are lost the Bible appears as foolishness but to one who is saved they are the words of life. That is not word for word but my paraphrase of the verse.
So is my assessment wrong? Are all life-related questions answerable in the Bible or not? If your answer is yes, your predictablity make yous boring by default. There are millions of "heathen" out there (those that consider your faith and religious texts laughable) who are willing to go the extra mile and learn rather than recite.
lina, talk about boring there is this the one person who constantly comes to these sites and spews the same worldly cutdowns of Christians time and time again, oh wait that's you, sorry about that.
Also, a lot of evangelicals aren't very interesting. They're rather boring actually. You know exactly what they are going to say or think. I can't imagine having a philosophical and mentally-stimulating conversation with anyone of the evangelical persuasion. I have many more Jewish, Hindu, agnostic, gay, and liberal Christian friends (admittingly, I don't count any evangelicals among my friends/family).
As I had mentioned before, I think most people consider evangelicals as just plain cruel, mean-spirited and self-righteous (not all of them of course) I was at the gay pride parade in Chicago this weekend, and there they were, holding up their signs, barking Bible verse after Bible verse, reminding people how evil they are and that they are going to hell while the other half a million people are just there to have a good time. How do you not just want to pray for these people?
tliml,
You said "What Prophet does NOT mention is that the texts HE wants you to accept are byzantine and were corrupted by Gnostics."
What scriptures are those?
tliml,
I hope you had a great vacation and had some time to relax. Usually on my vacations I'm so glad to get back to my job so I can relax....it's always go! go! go!...LOL. I've got my second vacation coming up in a few weeks...going up to the Black Hills.
Anyway,
I didn't not say that heaven was a physical place. It is a spiritual place. You're the one arguing that it is a physical place, but yet you when asked where heaven was you said it's all around us. Which makes absolutely no sense.
ifeelfine-
I can relate...
What Prophet does NOT mention is that the texts HE wants you to accept are byzantine and were corrupted by Gnostics ;) Prophet, sorry I had to go... vacation with the family. I believe we were in the middle of an argument... you were saying that heaven was a physical place even though the bible clearly says that Elijah and Jesus went body and soul into heaven. Would this be possible if it were not physical AND spiritual? You are going to come up with some messed up answer, I'm sure, but the proof is there.
wbmoore - I tried it and it worked. Thanks for the suggestion.
instead of flagging oneself, you can now point your mouse pointer over the 'delete' next to (or possibly under) the 'flag' link. It does not show as a link for some reason, but if you click on it, it will delete your post (you only see this on your own posts).
hlerwin, as I read the posts that came up after I left our discussion I think I may see where you and I disagree in the matter of evangelism. It appears you are looking at it from the rights perspective and I am looking at it from the responsibility side. I believe that God's Word clearly teaches that God has given His Church and every Christian the responsibility to be His Ambassadors in sharing the Gospel of Salvation with the whole world. He calls it the Great Commission and it is about both evangelism and discipleship and in fact many to include myself see them as not two separate issues but one. But I also believe that if we are to share the Gospel effectively we must not only see this task as a responsibility, but it must also be a burden and a passion in the heart of the believer as well. And I also believe the most effective way to present the Gospel is to earn the right to be heard. That I show mutual respect to others and don't think I have the right to ram the Gospel down their throat. My sense is that perhaps when you hear the word evangelism that's what comes to mind a person or group trying to ram the Word of God down other people's throats. Yes, there are times, say on a plane, where we need to get to the point quickly, but I believe that for the most part we would be much more effective if we use a lifestyle evangelism approach where we live our lives in such a way that we make people thirsty for what we've got, a personal growing relationship with God through Christ, and as a result have earned the right to be heard.
believer: I made my position known - I didn't realize your's or prophet's posts needed response. I could restate my position again but that doesn't get us anywhere. Whose hermenuetic is right? I guess we'll all find out one day.
I accidently clicked submit before I intended. sorry.
If he couldn't be honest to begin with, what makes one think he was honest about the rest. So, obviously, Mohammed's version of God is not the real version.
But God said if you deny Christ, you deny God. But even so, He called everyone.
1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1 John 4:2-4
2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
signing off as well. Blessings to all.
hlerwin: Technically their rights do end, but only when they violate the rights of another. ie harassment, stalking, assault, etc.
Goodnight all. I have to get up for work in two hours.
Well, that's the thing with free speech. It doesn't stop outside your range of hearing.
prophet: you are correct Islam does direct good muslims to convert the infadel or kill him if he will not. The muslim hadith even teaches the practice of "hudna" which is a false peace strategy to gain an advantage over the enemies of islam.
I believe that the Satanist's or Muslim's or Christian's rights to evangelize end just outside my hearing range. But I would not try to pass any laws to stop them.
hlerwin: The koran contradictions of the Bible are numerous. ie Yahweh's son is Christ. Allah has no son. We can determine Yahweh and allah are not the same being.
Geez...even satanists have the right to "evangelize". What's your point?
The difference is this:
Christians present the Gospel. A person chooses not to accept it. We say okay and love them.
Muslims present their beliefs. A person chooses not to accept it. They kill them.
Anyone with a logical mind would certainly want to steer clear of a religion that promotes killing anyone that doesn't believe the way they do.
I'm realize I am being flippant about a serious subject.
I said he "seemed" different to me, wbmoore. I don't know enough about Allah. If it turns out that Mohammed WAS the last prophet from God/Allah, though (which I seriously doubt), I think President Bush is in deep doo-doo.
I believe everyone has the right to share their faith and everyone also has the right to reject what is shared with them if they choose.
hlerwin: To answer your question, Yes muslims have the right to share their faith as do those of other faiths. The priciple question is does one want Freedom of Religion or Freedom from Religion? In America one can have which ever they wish.
hlerwin,
Everyone has the right to claim what they wish. But as you stated yourself, Mohammed was not the Messiah - first or second coming.
But, according to your logic, does that give Muslims every right to proseltyze us? I mean, they believe in their hearts that they are really correct. They just KNOW it! So do they have a "right" to share this news with us?
hlerwin,
Oh, don't worry about it. LOL. It's hard to keep track when there's like 3 or 4 different conversations going on. I have that problem too of forgetting what I said to who. It really isn't important.
hlerwin: Your right about Mohammed's claim. Its not surprising he did so if you consider he presented himself to the Jews as their messiah and to Christians as the returned Christ. He was obviously rejected as being neither.
Besides, I don't really feel the need to prove my point. (Hmmmm...let me think about that remark. Is that true?) I guess I AM trying to defend my point of view, but I know deep down that I don't care whether you change your mind or not. That may clarify a real difference between some people on this Web site and me.
I don't get your drift, Prophet. What comment did I make to try to drag you down to my level? That was not my intention. What did I say?
I should have said that Mohammed claimed that Allah was Yahweh. From what I know about Allah, he seems different. But my point was that Muslims want to convince the rest of the world to heed the last prophet from God. They sincerely believe they have a right to do this. Do they? Is that any different from some Christians' "right" to spread our Gospel?
Well, hlerwin,
That is a comment I hear all the time from people who can't prove their point, so they try to drag the other person down to their level by saying "You're no better than me."
But that's true. I am no better than you. I am no better than the homosexual. I, too, am a sinner. Jesus had to die for me, just as he did for the homosexual, murderer, their, adulterer, etc. But I do have an advantage. I've accepted the gift, and I use that gift to help me crucify my fleshly desires and sins. In doing that I become a better person. I don't brag in that, because it's only by the grace of God and by His Spirit. And it really doesn't make me a better person, maybe just a smarter one. Or maybe more motivated. All who accept Jesus as their Lord have access to the same power that Jesus had. Some, like me and others, choose to access it and change into the image of Christ. Some deny the power of God, and choose to remain in sin. And they point fingers at those of us who choose to reach for the prize and call us judgemental, "holier-than-thou's", wackos, fundamentalists, ultra-conservatives....basically all the names that lazy people call successfull people.
hlerwin: May I ask what you mean by "and its the same god"? Thanks
I don't think this reflects the public's view of homosexuality. I think that this study reflects four things:
1. What Hugh Hewitt called "The Embarrassed Believer" (believers who are afraid to come out of the closet).
2. The privatization of faith (also impacted by secularism which tries to deny it public access).
3. That which has become known as the 'silent witness' (witnessing without using words).
4. Intimidation tactics by employers to avoid controversial subjects such as religion (including job security and promotions).
hlerwin, but his scripture is not the God-breathed, plenary and inerrant Word of God in its original manuscripts. It doesn't matter who believes the Word of God, God said it and that settles it, but if a person has any sense it would be in their best interest to put their complete faith/trust in the truths of God's Word and especially in those truths that deal with how a person can enter into a personal relationship with God through the person and finished work of Christ on Calvary since each and every person's eternal destiny rests on how they respond to those truths.
You may be right about Buddhists, wbmoore. It's been a long time since I studied them. Change that to Allah. Mohammed certainly states that you and I are covered by his pronouncements. That does not mean we are. And it's the same god.
scitsonga, don't you think that you are straying off course a little bit by getting into religious discussions? You only discuss politics remember?
hlerwin,
But Buddhists do not believe a god exists. So their teachings might or might not apply to all. But God DID say all nations would be blessed through Abraham, and people of every tribe are coming to God through Christ.
believer, do you really believe this?
"hlerwin, no not just for "my group" but for everyone because God in His Word declares it to be just that, although it may only be "my group" that acknowledges God's Word as just that."
You honestly don't see that God in His Word, as you put it, may not apply to a person of another religion? I think a Nichiren Buddhist is COMPLETELY, WHOLEHEARTEDLY CONVINCED that his scripture covers you, believer. Does that make it so? Not really, I think.
hlerwin, no not just for "my group" but for everyone because God in His Word declares it to be just that, although it may only be "my group" that acknowledges God's Word as just that.
That's OK, believer. Now, if my only two choices were "pro-homosexual" and "anti-homosexual" (for the purposes of this discussion board, I would, in fact, be "pro-." The choices in real life are broader than that, however. On another point, I agree with your last remark, with one qualifier: "...the Bible is the standard and foundation for all truth...for my group.
hlerwin, I agree not all truth is in the Bible and my apology for assuming you were pro-homosexual. And while the Bible may not contain all truth, what God teaches us in the Bible is true and the Bible is the standard and foundation for all truth.
believer, I do not think of myself as "pro-homosexual." I don't believe that homosexuals in general care what I think, or what you think. What we think has no bearing on them. And I never use scripture to "prove" any point. On many facets of modern life, scripture can make a point, can be silent or can be beside the point. Frequently, it is simply irrelevant. All truth is not in the Bible, you know. I wish some Christians would broaden their reading lists.
hlerwin, I'm still waiting for someone on the pro-homosexual side of this debate to show me any passages of scripture that in any way endorse, condone, or encourage the sexual practices of homosexuality or even the homosexual lifestyle. My mind is wide open for someone to show me those verses.
No, prophet, it is the "mature" version of "I don't think either side of this debate is "guiltier" than the other side, do you?"
hlerwin,
You said "We all tend to be closed-minded and so defensive of our precious positions. I don't think either side of this debate is "guiltier" than the other side, do you?"
That is the "mature" version of "I know you are, but what am I?"
ifeelfine72
Did I interpret your question,"Because of what, God gave them over to their shameful lusts?" correctly by the response I gave in my Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:39 pm post?
If not, then what did you mean by your question?
ifeelfine, I've noticed that you haven't chosen to respond to my 8:43 or prophet's 10:24 posts from Saturday and I wondered if you were going to? Thanks believer.
scitasonga, that's the problem I do get it because I know people who believe much the same way you do and whereas I appreciate your honesty and respect your right to believe that way, as a Christian if that view does not concern me then there's a problem in my life. If I say I truly love God and desire to live my life in a way that is pleasing to Him but don't allow Him to help me to not only love others but perhaps more importantly allow Him to use me as His tool in sharing His love and truth with others then I become a hypocrite because God loves and wants His children to love others regardless of what others think or don't think of Him. You said to me don't you get it? and in genuine love I say to you, don't you get it, that I am willing to do what ever I can to show you the love and truth of Christ in hope that one day you too will enter into a personal relationship with God through Christ. It's not a matter of an ego trip or getting rewards in heaven it's a geniune concern for you as a person.
believer, I dont think you are getting it. I am an agnostic, as such, I admit I have no idea if a creator, or god if your prefer, even exists much less know the nature of the creator- what the creator thinks. Religion and the notion of god(s) is an invention of the human mind as far as I can tell. As much as it appears that you believe in the supernatural, I have absolutely no reason to believe in the supernatural and I dont. it does not compute for me. It works for you, it makes sense to you, religion does nothing for me, I cant relate to it and I find it to be very uninteresting except for the politics of religion and its influence on society. I expect that when my heart stops pumping oxygen to my brain ,I am gone- I have no problem with that, it is reality as far as I can tell. I have no need to believe in an afterlife and I dont believe that a creator or god would give me the eternal torture treatment because I dont "believe" - defies logic & reason. Have a nice day.
I think you're right hlerwin
So do I.
"Wherever two or three are gathered....?"
Daniel Paul: I 100% agree with your statement.
We all tend to be closed-minded and so defensive of our precious positions. I don't think either side of this debate is "guiltier" than the other side, do you?
lina (et al):
Having been in the news business for 12 by gone years, I can tell you that each group sees those in other groups as nuts yelling their positions at you. Take the 'green' folks. Environmentalists are called 'nuts' by those who only view our environment in terms of what profit they can make. Many rich folks are viewed as 'nuts' because they can't seem to see past their own bank account. The list goes on.
This is why Jesus was hated by so many and still is. He IS the polar opposite of mankind. He came to give...not to get. He acted for our benefit. Many 'evangelicals' scream at others out of wrong motivation. The only people Jesus got really angry at were the 'religious nuts' who couldn't see past their own 'righteousness' to see the sin in their hearts.
Ruth and Naomi weren't lesbians. David and Jonathon weren't gay. Nice try of twisting the scriptures.
scitasonga, then you need to heed your own words to matthewr1, because you may be very well speaking a self-fulfilling prophecy on yourself, but it does not have to be that way if you would repent of your sins and sinful lifestyle and turn to God by totally putting your faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ on Calvary. I pray you do that before it's too late.
ifeelfine, computers were not in existence in Christ's day, but the sexual practices of homosexuality were. The Bible speaks to heterosexual marriage both the dos and the don'ts, it speaks to the sexual practices of heterosexuality both the dos and the don'ts, it speaks to heterosexual families both the dos and the don'ts, it even speaks to being single and widowhood, but no where does it speak in a positive way to the sexual practices of homosexuality. If this lifestyle or these sexual practices are so normal why does the Word of God never present them in that way?
ifeelfine, I dismiss them because neither one of them talk about sexual intimacy, one is a daughter-in-laws love and respect for her mother-in-law and the other describes an agape love relationship between two friends and there is absolutely no evidence that in either one of these cases of sexual intimacy between either Ruth and Naomi or David and Jonathan. If a Christian man says, "My love for God is greater than my love for a woman", that has absolutely nothing to do with sexual intimacy, if it does he is one sick puppy. Plus unlike Greek where there are three words to describe love, the Hebrew only has one. David was sharing just how great a love he had for Jonathan even more than he could love a woman, it had nothing to do with sex.
ifeelfine72
You said, "Star - then you answer the question I asked matthewr1: Because of what, God gave them over to their shameful lusts?"
matthewr1 said, "Are we still debating whether or not homosexual acts are sin, ifeelfine72?"
My assumption was, like matthewri, was that you were refering to whether homosexual acts were sinful. If that is correct then like I said, wbmoore, matthewri, myself, and many others have shown you over and over again that the Word of God is clear about gay sex being an abomination (Lev 18:22,20:13)and all who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10).
People don't go to hell because of righteousness they go to hell because of unforgiven sin. If gay sex is not a sin but an act of righteousness, then there is nothing for God to forgive, and He certaintly would not sentence you to hell for such an act. So, it must be an act that God considers sinful.
There were homosexuals in the Church of Corinth. When they were born-again, they were forgiven and set free from that sin. (1 Cor 6:11). Homosexuals today can be forgiven and set free from that sin and sinful lifestyle if they will allow God to do His work in them. Can they change on their own? No. But if they have at least a willingness to allow God to work in their life and set them free, He will. It is a process. It takes time because there are many issues that God needs to deal with. But God can do it if the person in bondage to that sin allows God to do it.
Most people who are homosexuals are that way because of some experienced they had as a child, however, not all. Science has now found out that some are 'born' that way because while developing in their mother's womb some kind of drug was given to their mother that caused the developing boy fetus' body to produce an abonormal amount of estrogen. If this is correct, then it still is something God can changed. I have had many supernatural healing from God and I have witnessed many who I have prayed for experience supernatural healings.
Healing is for today just like it was in the NT. God is a healing God and making right something that goes wrong in a person's body is nothing for God. No one has to live with being a homosexual nor does anyone have to live with homosexual tendencies. Jesus is a healing Jesus and He came to set the captives free.
By you question, if it didn't deal with whether homosexuality is a sin or not, then what did you mean by it?
Okay, I've already argued with Scriptures to the point of exhaustion. The blood is on your own hands now.
believer "it still amazes me that so many who are prohomosexual have no problem refuting those scriptures that many use to show that God condemns the sexual practices of homosexuality"
well i gotta tell u believer, as an agnostic, i really could care less about what your "scriptures" say. just as heterosexuals were created attracted to the opposite sex, homosexuals were created attracted by the same sex. both hetero and homosexuality are not choices. thats how they (we) were made. i knew at a very young age i was attracted to opposite sex, nothing i decided, the same is said by my gay friends, they were attracted to same sex very early one. the problem you other overly religious folks have is you have been poisoned by too much religion which can then manifest itself into persecution of those that do not fit you beliefs and world view. i am unemcumbered by narrow religious dogma and ideology- i say live and let live and mind your own business.
believer: I've pointed to Ruth & Naomi and Jonathan and David but you dismiss that. I've also stated that the Bible doesn't have to endorse everything we do. It isn't endorsing the computer you're using right now. If it had to endorse everything we do, it would be the biggest book ever.
ifeelfine and scitsonga, it still amazes me that so many who are prohomosexual have no problem refuting those scriptures that many use to show that God condemns the sexual practices of homosexuality and yet when I make a simple request for these same people to show me any scripture that endorses, condones, or encourages these practices no one to this point has been able to do it, why is that?
Star - then you answer the question I asked matthewr1: Because of what, God gave them over to their shameful lusts?
ifeelfine72 - They have proved their point over and over again as well as many other conservative Christians have. You just don't want to hear it. You have heretical beliefs. It is beyond me how you can be so blind to what the Word of God says and teaches and why you refuse to accept God's Word by faith. What is your standard for what is right and wrong? The world?
matthewr1 - You and wbmoore "prooved" nothing. You pervert scripture to make it something hateful - just like slave owners did 150+ years ago. If you truly are on a pilgrimage, I suggest that you repent of your hateful ways.
BTW: You completely ignored my question . . . is it because the answer doesn't fit your biases?
star "People are not animals."
their not? are they vegetables or minerals.
scitsonga
People are not animals.
star2 "When God created the male and the female He created them to be sexually attracted to one another. It is an innate trait. It is written into their DNA. Therefore, sexual attraction and accompanying behavior is natural. Humans are hardwired by their DNA to view attraction to the opposite sex as natural."
the DNA "wiring" is sometimes such that there is same sex attraction, it occurs quite naturally in many different animals....
matthewr1 "I have heard that there is an eternal City of God. One who's foundations are laid with righteousness, truth, holiness, and humility. There is no sin in that City, nor will there ever be, for God Himself dwells in that City,"
sure doesn't sound like much fun, hope i dont end up in a place like that.
i have a number of gay friends, they are likable and easy to get along with. in general, the evangelicals i know tend to be self-righteous, judgemental and not much fun to be around, especially if they oppose the consumption of alcohol which i really enjoy
hlerwin:
Sir, I have heard that there is an eternal City of God. One who's foundations are laid with righteousness, truth, holiness, and humility. There is no sin in that City, nor will there ever be, for God Himself dwells in that City, along with his Son.
I am on pilgrimage to that City. I am walking on a blood stained road from righteous Abel to righteous Paul, Peter, and all the holy martyers that have shed their blood for the Gospel up to the present. They spilled their blood for a Holy God who cannot tolerate sin; who stood up for the authority of the Word of God, and paid with their lives for it; and for identifying themselves with Jesus Christ, even though it cost them their lives.
If you wish to make pilgrimage too, let us turn our back on all of our sins and make pilgrimage together. If not, please do not stand in the way of other pilgrims, and proove to only be a stumbling block; simply return to the City of Destruction.
hlerwin,
First let me say that if I have hurt or upset you in some way, I am sorry. Such was never my intention.
Now, on to what we have been discussing.
You can debate whether the sun is up or not. You can claim it is not, when in fact it is shining in the sky. Just because you would debate it does not change the truth of the matter.
I dont think everyone has to base their beliefs on the Bible. I dont think people who do not call themselves Christians have the need to follow what the Bible teaches, so long as what they do harms no one.
However, IF someone claims to be Christian and teaches or does something that goes against what the Bible teaches, then we have the duty to go to them and try to address the issue. They are free to agree or not.
However, even if someone does not believe the Bible or claim to be Christian, they have a duty to not harm people. This is a fundamental requirement for people to be able to live together. You can believe it or not.
If some new technology comes up (say the internet) and people begin to use it to harm people (say child pornography), others in society have the duty to do what they can to prevent it (within the bounds of existing laws). As such, they will attempt to either pass new laws to protect society or adapt existing laws for this purpose.
I base my beliefs upon the Bible. Upon what do you base yours?
Is there too much vitriol in your posts, matthew?
To matthewr1: My reply to wbmoore was short, because it touched on the same topic I have asked him about in many posts; namely, the authority of Biblical scripture over a person who does not believe it or doesn't believe it literally or doesn't believe in all of it. I don't think my reply was "poor" or "shotty," as you write. I guess you mean "shoddy," and I don't think it was that, either. And what do you know about my "wicked ways?" (I've got some, but I didn't think they were so widely publicized.)
Are we still debating whether or not homosexual acts are sin, ifeelfine72?
Wbmoore and I already amply prooved it. If you want to continue in your delusions, that is your perogative. You do so at your own peril, by perverting the Holy Scriptures into your fantasies.
Whatever sick, twisted view you want to take on homosexual behaviour, just don't call it Scriptural. We're well aware of the dogs that pervert the Scriptures into whatever fancy their delusions wish - among them are liberal theologians, false teachers, heretics, false prophets - their lot is the place that burns with sulfer, as clearly demonstrated in the Scriptures.
I'm afraid, son, you're kidding yourself when you pretend the Scriptures are just some tool to bend to your own sick fantasies.
matthewr1 - Because of what, God gave them over to their shameful lusts?
hlerwin: What a poor, shotty reply you gave to wbmoore. I'm not even sure what you are trying to get at with your reply; all I can see is you're just trying to throw dirt on the argument to make it look convoluted beyond recognition.
Are you saying you believe in Judgement Day?
1.If so, is it not the duty for fellow Christians to tell one another, rebuke, and correct when fellow Christians fall into sin? If you think that it's not okay hold one another accountable, then you live in contradiction to this in your very own life when you correct your children, when you get in someone's way before they step out infront of a moving bus, when you get in someone's way before they become addicted to say drugs. The list goes on. Infact it is very clear in Scriptures that we are to admonish one another (fellow Christians).
2. If you do not believe in Judgement Day, then you are only kidding yourself because there is clear evidences in Scriptures that there is in fact a Day for men to be judged. If there was no Judgement Day, then God could not even possibly be God, he would be too pathetic to be God. For God could not possibly be just in letting the wicked get off scott free. If he is not Just, then he cannot possibly be Merciful, for what law would there be to transgress if God was not Just? If God isn't Just or Merciful, it follows he couldn't be a loving God.
It becomes clear and evident that once Judgement Day is stripped away, we also strip away every attribute of God and leave him as some neutered, pathetic creature incapable of doing anything - much like the Pantheists claim.
I've seen in a couple of other posts you do not believe in a strict adherence to the Scriptures. You hope that God will reveal more to mankind. Well those sick fantasies of yours are only a result of your desire to continue lavishing in your wicked ways.
Too much "religion" produces myopia, and whether it's in American evangelicals or Shiites or Nichiren Buddhists in Japan, it is a very bad condition.
Even your last line, wbmoore, "...we each will face Christ on the day of judgment and answer for our choices" is a matter for discussion. If you and I believe this, it may still have no bearing on how another person should conduct his life. We do not live in a theocracy, as you well know, but would you actually prefer to live in one?
hlerwin,
"Where do you people get off putting yourselves in charge of separating the sheepies and the goaties?"
I'm simply calling a spade a spade. Christ told us to call sin as sin (Luke 17:3). Paul told us to correct incorrect teaching (2 Tim 2:24-26). John told us to not welcome people who do not teach the Gospel (2 John 1:8-10). Paul told us to have nothing to do with people who have a form of godliness but deny its power.
2 Tim 2:1-5
1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of Godâ۠5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
"I sure am glad that I am not responsible for such a difficult, everyday, time-consuming job"
You are responsible for it - each of us are - even if you dont accept it. But teachers and pastors/elders/deacons have an even greater responsibility in this area.
2 Tm 4:2-4
2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourageâ€â€with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
We are each free to decide whether we believe God or not. We are each responsible for our own choices. We each will decide whether to follow God. We each will decide if we will live lives of sin or obedience to God as an expression of our faith. And we each will face Christ on the day of judgment and answer for our choices.
hlerwin ,
"I suppose according to your "hermeneutics" Presidents John Adams and John Quincy Adams are burning in Hell for being Unitarians. These were not flighty men. I'm sure their reasoning (for being Unitarians) was sound."
They were smart men. Our country owes a lot to them. I have a lot of respect for them. They were very religious. I don't know what they believed. I'll find out if they made it heaven when I get there.
But to deny Christ is God is heretical to what the Bible teaches. Its not my hermeneutics; its what the Bible teaches. To deny Christ is to deny what God has done. The only way to go to heaven is to believe Christ died for our sins - to the point where our lives are changed. The only way it could be efficacious is if God Himself paid the price for our sins. If you don't believe that, then you don't believe God.
I'm not the one who set the rules - God did. If someone chooses to not believe, that's up to them. It does not affect whether they are honorable. It does not affect whether they moral. But it does affect whether they go to heaven.
John 3:16-18
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 5:17-18
17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 10:30-33
30 "I and the Father are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
wrhalver
It is unnatural and repulsive to me to see a man (woman) that acts, talks, and/or dresses like a woman (man). It is unnatural and repulsive to see two men or two women embracing, kissing, and holding hands with one another in public.
I am refering to public behavior not private behavior. Homosexual behavior behind closed doors I am not acquainted with. I have not observed it nor do I care to.
When God created the male and the female He created them to be sexually attracted to one another. It is an innate trait. It is written into their DNA. Therefore, sexual attraction and accompanying behavior is natural. Humans are hardwired by their DNA to view attraction to the opposite sex as natural.
It is natural for a man (woman) to act, talk, and dress like a man (woman). It is natural for a man and a woman to want to embrace,kiss, and hold hands with each other, though passionate hugging and kissing, to me, belongs behind closed doors. They at times do such things in public. It is unknown to the observer if they are married or committing aduletry or fornication. I disapprove of adultery and fornication. However,I would not be repulsived by such behavior because, again, it is natural for a man and a woman to want to engage in that kind of affection for one another. If I knew, though, that the man and woman were committing adultery or fornication I would, in my mind totally reject them. Repulsed by their public display of embracing, kissing, and holding hands, no, but my mind and spirit would totally reject their relationship whether they displayed their affection for one another in public or in private.
star 2
You have said....
"Because homosexuality is against nature,therefore repulsive. I don't like having to be exposed to aberrant behavior I find repulsive. If I had underaged children I wouldn't want them having their innocense polluted with such wicked behavior"
Do you find adultery and fornication to be just as repulsive? Are these sexual sins more natural and therefore more acceptable?
".....say there is no trinity," you write, wbmoore? I suppose according to your "hermeneutics" Presidents John Adams and John Quincy Adams are burning in Hell for being Unitarians. These were not flighty men. I'm sure their reasoning (for being Unitarians) was sound. Where do you people get off putting yourselves in charge of separating the sheepies and the goaties? I sure am glad that I am not responsible for such a difficult, everyday, time-consuming job.
Good show wbmoore. My favourite proof text on Homosexual sin is Romans 1:26-27 (of course there are numerous other passages that condemn such actions as sin):
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
I'm glad Wbmoore that you didn't beat around the bush, and you just went outright and called them who they are: heretics (people who deny the Trinity, Jesus' divinity, people who approve of homosexual offenses, and the like).
There are also people who read the bible with their flawed hermeneutics and say that there is no trinity, that Christ is not God. This makes them wrong and heretics.
To say that God is not against homosexual sex is to ignore scripture (Matthew 7:21-23, Mt 15:18-20,Mk 7:20-23, Rom 1:19-32, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Rev 2:14-16, Rev 21:7-8). Immoral sex is wrong. The Old Testament was used by Christ to indicate what was good and not. The Old Testament is clear that homosexual sex is immoral.
matthewr1 - what makes you believe being gay is a sin? Why are you so sure your interpretation of the Bible is correct? There are other hermeneutics that suggest being gay is no more sinful than heterosexuality (in other words, only lustful or abusive relationships, etc). Why are you so sure of yours?
And, what does it mean to be gay? Is it same-sex attraction? Only acting out on those feelings? What?
Matthew,
That's not good enough. They want a third option: Make God into their image.
Okay, I've quickly skimmed through the posts just to keep up to date on this debate. Mike and Chicago, this is how I know the Holy Spirit does not reside in you: "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is how we know who are the children of God are and who the children of the devil are" (1 John 3:9-10).
It is evident that there is not the least bit of conviction either of you have towards homosexual behaviour. Therefore, you are not born of God. QED.
I'm not here to quibble or argue, here are the two choices you have with this confrontation: 1. If you don't believe me, continue in your abomination that leads to condemnation; you are born of the devil and will go with the devil to the place that burns with sulfer forever and ever. 2. Repent, therefore and turn from your wicked ways. I'm not saying it will be easy, infact it will probably be the toughest thing you'll ever do, but if you repent before the Lord Jesus Christ, he will forgive your inequity. Continue in turning your back on homosexual sin and you will be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit.
Like I said, I'm not going to reply to anymore stupid replies that says "I'm homosexual, I was born with it, therefore it's okay to be homosexual" or "Homosexuality is certainly not sin." You guys want to say it, fine; you're only fooling yourselves by calling yourselves Christians.
Christians are intensely aware of sin. Although they still sin (only for a short time), they hate sin with all their hearts and continually repent and turn their backs on sin.
One of my co-workers recently "came out" to me as evangelical. I had no idea he was like that. He didn't have any evangelical attributes and he's always been a great employee. I don't think it will change anything between us as long as he keeps it to himself. Whatever people do in the privacy of their own homes is their business, I guess. I just hope he doesn't recruit any children to that lifestyle.
Whoever took the above post seriously has lost his/her sense of humor completely. It's a failing with many "Christians."
RE:Why does homosexuality occupy such an important place in evangelicals' discussions?
Because homosexuality is against nature,therefore repulsive. I don't like having to be exposed to aberrant behavior I find repulsive. If I had underaged children I wouldn't want them having their innocense polluted with such wicked behavior.
To whoever wrote the above post, does it occur to you that what we heterosexuals do in bed might be repulsive and seem wicked to homosexuals? But there's some Good News: They don't have to watch us.
Mike,
You said earlier "How many of you talking about how homosexuality is this horrifically deviant, Godless, wicked lifestyle actually know someone close to you that is gay?"
I really don't have a problem with the average homosexual. But there are two types of homosexuals that I find very disturbing.
1. The homosexual with an agenda. Who wants to infiltrate our schools and teach MY children that homosexuality is okay.(Which I've already point out to my children a number of lies that the school teaches. So they at least are hearing the truth from somewhere.)
2. A homosexual who calls himself a Christian. An act will not keep you from God, but a habit will.
Watch your thoughts for they become your words.
Watch your words for they become your actions.
Watch your actions for they become your habits.
Watch your habits for they become your character.
Watch your character for it becomes your destiny.
Honestly, I know a few gays and lots of evangelicals, I'm not sure what to make of this article.
rolln4him,
In this case, I was answering a (possibly rhetorical) question posed by hlerwin. I DID cut-and-paste. The reason I did so was that this is a question that has been asked and answered before.
There are plenty of posts that I do not cut and paste. But the posts that I do cut and paste are those which address questions or issues that have been posted and answered time and again. I see no need to retype my thoughts when they hsve not changed from before.
As for length, Sometimes I'm verbose. This is especially the case when I want to be complete in my answer and there are a variety of things to address. Sometimes what happens is I begin to respond 'from the heart' and it turns into something that is 5 or 6 posts long. In those cases, since I've begun the blog in another website, I post it there and I put a short answer here and include a link for the fuller blog entry.
But don't think for a second its not from the heart. I try to think out my answers, rather than post reactionary posts. I don't want to offend (although I realize God's Word IS offensive to some). I want to educate and God willing help people see the Truth. So the posts can get long.
Believer: Thank you for sharing your journey. I've realized for a long time that we are all very unique, especially when it comes down to our psycho/social/sexual makeup and that no two people are alike.
Your journey sounds like it has brought you to a fulfilling life with your wife and Creator. I wish the best to you and yours.
Thanks again for sharing.
rollin and star2, thanks for the blogging grammar lesson, be blessed as you serve Him or should I say 2baysH, believer.
chicago24, I didn't finish my train of thought on my last post with you. I guess what I'm saying is when I went through that struggle in my life sex had little if anything to do with it. It was all about love, acceptance, and approval which I was not finding at home or with girls. Because I thought I was going to be a priest I felt I had to shut down all my social skills when it came to relating to girls and that shut down started in the 3rd grade. So in the 11th grade after I left the seminary and could begin having boy/girl relationships I was a total social misfit and had no clue how to relate to girls. But when I was 19 and heard the plan of salvation for the first time I realized that God through Christ wanted to have the exact same kind of relationship with me that I wanted to have with others in my life and hopefully one day a girl. So getting saved was a total no-brainer for me and three years later God brought my wife into my life who next to God is my very best friend and my partner in ministry. Well chicago thanks for hearing me out and letting me finish my train of thought.
chicago24, I guess that perhaps where I tend do disagree with people on both sides of the issue, I don't believe that simply not being attracted to someone of the opposite sex makes someone a homosexual. I've personally come to believe that what makes a person a homosexual is that they believe the only way they can have true sexual fulfillment not just an orgasm is by having sexual intimacy with someone of the same sex and the same would hold true with what makes a person a heterosexual accept of course with someone of the opposite sex. Now where this issue gets complicated and I believe where most of the disagreement is falls in the area of what causes a person to choose their sexual preference is it a learned behavior based on one's life experience or is it genetic or is it a combination of both where the person may be predisposed to lean in one direction but ultimately has to choose for themselves. Even this article, I wonder how many people who said they knew a homosexual based it on the stereotypical role model of what a homosexual is as opposed to knowing for a fact that the person was a homosexual? I guess based on my own life experience I still believe that their some if not many who are living the homosexual lifestyle because they were made to believe for a number of reasons that they are homosexual. I may be wrong but there was a time in my own life as a teen where I began to think may I was meant to be a homosexual and it was certainly not something I wanted but something I felt kind of stuck with and plus I knew several homosexuals who were much more accepting/approving of me than many and especially females in the heterosexual community. But once again that was my life experience and it also occured before I heard the plan of salvation even once in my life. I don't share to offend but give others a better idea of where I'm coming from.
OOppps. Forgot to provide the site. http://searchcrm.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid11_gci211776,00.html
Teenagers are really into stuff like IPN and others that set me off to get to know all these lazy acronyms for posting. Sometimes, it's their lingo to get around the parents; sad to say or bypass filters.
LOL! laugh out loud
BTW by the way
Sorry believer - I work with teenagers. Here's a website full of these things that I too had find out.
LD TTYL
LOL - Laugh(ing) Out Loud
rollin, thanks and another dumb question what does LOL mean, I originally thought lots of luck?
Believer: Thanks for your inquiry.
I never had any attraction in any way toward a member of the opposite sex; only the same sex.
The same could be asked of someone who is heterosexual. What led them to believe they were heterosexual? Our answers would probably be very similar.
This is probably why I never struggled to become something I was clearly not. I knew deep down that there was absolutely no moral choice involved concerning my sexual orientation.
I understand what it means to struggle to overcome sin, but that does not mean we should give up the fight. Also, a person cannot say they were born a certain way just because they had an urge at an early age. Many kids have urges to steal. Does that make stealing okay? Murderers have urges to kill. Does that make murder okay?
LOL - I didn't know how to translate but it's screen-name. Mines rolln4him etc.
rollin4him, my curiousity has got the best of me, what's a screenman?
chicago24, I've heard other homosexuals say the same thing that they knew from an early age that they were homosexual, but I've never had the opportunity to ask this and I genuinely want to know. Exactly what is it that you knew that led you to believe you were a homosexual?
I don't claim to be a psychologist, but you said "I tried and tried for YEARS to not be gay through following Jesus and praying constantly (even punishing myself physically) but it simply didn't work."
So are you saying that you agreed that the Jesus you were following was convicting you of this sin and how did this change. It appears you simply were told somewhere along the way to just change the meaning of scripture to fit you lifestyle and all the guilt will go away. Is this true?
mike -
Thanks for your honesty in your answer. But truthfully, pedophiles struggle exactly the same way you described your life. Once again, in the news today, I saw that a Saudi cleric believes that pedophilia is OK by God. Maybe you believe that pedophiles are NOT born that way, but truth is that would make you intolerant and bigoted right? Bottom line: Trusting Jesus is the only way. Jesus says it's sin, but He'll walk you through those struggles. There are ministries out there that will partner up with you and YOU WILL defeat Satan and all his deceptions.
Pedophiles are not born that way, we know that pedophilia is about taking power over a child, and its normally to regain the power that was taken from them as children (virtually all pedophiles have been molested, abused, raped of some sort.) I honestly don't know enough about those who have sex with animals to comment on it other than to say that it is extremely dnagerous for your health and that again, it is forcing yourself on another (an animal can't really give consent beyond acting on its instincts.) Pedophilia and beastiality are on different playing fields entirely because they're not about the committment of 2 people. Do all gays commit to each other? Absolutely not, neither do many straight couples. I am a Christian and I am gay, and I am quite tired of arguing for that. I have said it numerous times before, I tried and tried for YEARS to not be gay through following Jesus and praying constantly (even punishing myself physically) but it simply didn't work. It got to the point where I thought Jesus would rather have me dead and straight than alive and gay. Now you tell me, which is worse: To give up all hope that Jesus can help you, or to continue living your life, still praying, still following Christ, and trusting that he will take your life where it needs to go? I am choosing to follow the second one, as the first one almost resulted in my suicide. I believe Christ has a plan for me, I do still follow Christ, and we all fall down, every day. That does not mean we are not Christians, and I certainly would not judge someone to the point of saying they are not Christian because of their actions.
wbmoore -
You've got to stop copy/paste methods and engage with each forum from your heart.
I love you brother and I know you mean well, but you're long postings are not appropriate for such a forum. More for a blog type forum.
Let’s look at why Christians should care about any given sin in our society.
Focusing on any given sin by the church tends happen once that sin comes to the forefront of our society. We have to deal with each sin as it manifests in our lives, individually. And from my perspective, no sin is worse or better than any other sin. As we mature in Christ, we individually need to leave sin after sin behind.
Each of us needs to do this. In the process, we need to find ways of sharing God’s love with all sinners, including liars, the sexually immoral, and others who live patterns of sin. But we also have to not let people call good what God has called evil. Most people recognize that murder and rape are sins. So people do not try to step forward and demand to be allowed to do them.
Just because Christ did not focus on a given sin is no reason to think he thought it was ok. He dealt with issues of the heart with some concrete examples. He mentioned problems that were common in that day. For example, Christ did not mention homosexuality directly, but He didn’t mention rape either. I don’t hear anyone justifying that sin. Nor do I hear rapists coming forward saying they ought to have a right to rape.
Sin is sin, and it is God who decides what constitutes sin. We have the responsibility to ensure society is not damaged by people trying to justify their selfish behavior.
As society continues to move in a direction against God, it becomes increasingly difficult not to be adversely affected by blatant manifestations of sin. While I am responsible for myself, this does not obviate the effect of society accepting sin has on me. The same is true for anyone attempting to raise children in this society. It becomes increasingly difficult to teach God’s standards and expect children (whose ideas and morals are formed by what they see, hear, and experience) to embrace those ideals. It is faith in Christ that softens the heart and is reflected in a positively changed life. James and Paul both said we need to repent - which means change - and live lives that reflect that change. If one believes the word of God about needing faith in Christ, then one must live a life that reflects a changed heart. We must be obedient to Christ and help others to do the same.
That is why I think Bible believing Christians focus on any given issue at all, such as homosexuality. I doubt it would be an issue for many of us if there weren’t this tiny but loudly vocal group trying to get us to embrace (not just tolerate) a particular sin.
Chicago -
So I'll pose the same question to you. For sake of consistency: Do you believe that those that "struggle" with having sex with kids and those that have sex with animals are born this way too?
Little side note if you haven't read the news. Pedophiles will start moving to the middle east since one of their leaders thinks marrying kids as young a 1 year olds is fine. It was a relief to hear though that he didn't think sex would be appropriate with them until they're a bit older. Guess what country happens to be?
Mike and Chicago -
I appreciate your honesty with your stories, but to equate living a gay lifestyle and being a Christian is a lie. I'm sure by this point in time, you're no longer surprised by this statement.
I grew up in a VERY conservative household (Dad is a Southern Baptist minister) with three brothers, one of whom is an identical twin. I knew I was gay at a very early age but didn't struggle with accepting myself. Iknew that there was no moral choice involved in that decision. Incidentally, my twin brother is gay as well. He's in a committed relationship, I am not. None of us were molested, exposed to homosexuals, and we have terrific parents. Because my dad and I have always had a healthy relationship, it has remained that way.
What frustrates me are these sweeping assumptions about gay people on this website. Yes, some gay people have an "agenda". Yes, some gay people are "in your face". Some are nasty. Just like heterosexuals. Many of us, like myself, are Christians.
And no, I don't like to watch "Project Runway".
Mike-
I know that I was born (in sin) simply because if it weren't for my salvation from Satan's lies, I'd be certainly voting for polygamy. Why even get married, just have sex with whoever and whatever we wish.
Mike-
I don't "quote" them, I'm just saying this is one of several ministries out there that recognize that there are those that struggle with this sin and truly want to repent and need that support. "even if one repents and comes to the Christ - the angels rejoice".
mike -
To you think pedophiles and people that have a desire to have sex with animals (bestiality) are born this way?
Rolln, Exodus has phenomenally high failure rates. I wouldn't quote them if I were you.
mike-
I said that the pulpits have remained quiet, not Christians as a whole.
I agree with you that our screenman "believer" is a tremendous Christian.
Additionally, since I have gay friends, work with gay individual and the like, I'm certainly well aware of their human feature (ie not monsters etc.), but the mistake we're making as a society (Christian or otherwise) is that we're calling a sexual perversion - normal or even something to celebrate and making those opposed to it the Monsters. You see, we're backwards. On the otherhand, there are ministries that are taking those that struggle with this sin and leading them to freedom from that sin like Exodus and others.
Once again, its really not such an awful "lifestyle." This is how I was born, and unless you're gay yourself, its clear you won't understand that. Why would God allow a child to be corrupted before they are even born (if you believe that, I think its pretty sick and twisted.) God is more powerful than Satan, correct? Children can't choose one over the other, so how could a child choose to be gay? There is no thinking in that mentality. I grew up in a perfectly normal home, playing sports, playing with my friends and siblings, never being molested or exposed to anything "deviant" sexually, so that just about expels any of your "nurture" ideas of how I was converted to being gay.
rolln, hold the phone! Christians have remained quiet? Christians are the reasons there are gay marriage bans in so many states and largely why Bush got into office.
Mike, you are in seriously sad shape...if indeed the Holy Spirit resides in you, your lifestyle grieves Him every moment of every day. When we as Christians know something is a sin and continue in it, we remain under the chastising hand of God until repentance comes and the relationship with our Father is restored...may you come to that place soon, get out of this awful sinful lifestyle, and find forgiveness.
chicago24, thanks for the apology, but I think the reason I missed it is because I unfortunately know so-called evangelicals who have said that very thing, but thanks again.
Why has homosexuality discussed so often?
Very simple. The gay agenda has done what they've been saying they'd do for several years: GET IN YOUR FACE and make you deal with it. They've lied, intimidated, name-called, sued, pressured, mocked people of faith, and exposed their way into mainstream society while our pulpits lay quiet and still for the most part. Praise the Lord for the few that have stood up against this evil.
Its funny how many people completely missed the point of my post! Believer, I'd have to say you're one of the few I would truly call a Christian. How many of you talking about how homosexuality is this horrifically deviant, Godless, wicked lifestyle actually know someone close to you that is gay? I would venture to say, you don't know them well. Yes, I am gay, but I am in a committed relationship. You wouldn't know I was gay unless I told you, to be quite honest. I am an elementary school teacher, and an excellent one at that (if I do say so myself.) The point I was trying to make is that you can call homosexuality a sin, but you should not be attacking homosexuals and making everyone out to be these horrible monsters who want to eat children and burn down churches. Matthew, yes, I most certainly do have the Holy Spirit with me, and how dare you say otherwise. Since you're a Christian, you have no sin that plagues you? There is absolutely nothing about you that you have tried to change, but it just isn't happening for whatever reason? Don't you dare condemn me and tell me the Holy Spirit isn't with me. I'd say thats a pretty big sin too! We are ALL sinners, I am tired of people defining me by the fact that I am gay. I certainly don't.
Evangelicals are attempting to answer the call to spread the gospel. They tell the truth from Holy Scriptures in this wicked generation concerning what God's word says about all sin, not just homosex. Evangelicals and God's word about gays in the Bible do not offend me, but I can see how homosexuals would be offended by both.
If you are gay, do you believe Christ will be pleased if he finds you in bed having gay sex when He returns for His Church? Its perverted to even mention, but I asked out of genuine concern and do not mean to offened anyone. I also contend with sin and have no room to judge others, least I am tempted myself.
itsallaboutjesusnotme.blogspot.com
Believer: My apologies, but I was merely being satirical in my comment. (I used to be a staff writer for The Onion)
chicago, your friend is at best at evangelical in name only. Calling oneself an evangelical does not make one an evangelical. That is why I think this article is somewhat comical. True evangelicals come in all kinds of flavors. A true evangelical is a person who is not only in agreement with the Word of God, but is also committed to joining God in fulfilling His Great Commission. It's not a club or organization it is a way of life, a life surrendered to the Lordship of Christ in order to be used of God in sharing the Good News of the Gospel of Christ, that in fact Jesus is the Truth, the Life and the Way and no one can come unto the Father but through Him alone, that in fact we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, by Christ alone, that in fact one must repent of their sin and sinful lifestyle and turn to God by putting their complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ on Calvary alone. Only a truly born-again Christian who is committed to sharing these truths can truly be called or considered an evangelical regardless of their church or denominational affiliation.
One of my co-workers recently "came out" to me as evangelical. I had no idea he was like that. He didn't have any evangelical attributes and he's always been a great employee. I don't think it will change anything between us as long as he keeps it to himself. Whatever people do in the privacy of their own homes is their business, I guess. I just hope he doesn't recruit any children to that lifestyle.
ifeelfine72 - Yes, I flagged myself.
hlerwin
RE:Why does homosexuality occupy such an important place in evangelicals' discussions?
Because homosexuality is against nature,therefore repulsive. I don't like having to be exposed to aberrant behavior I find repulsive. If I had underaged children I wouldn't want them having their innocense polluted with such wicked behavior.
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities because of it. Would He not destroy the USA but only in a different way then they?
How I feel does not come from a judgmental heart.
Okay, this is why we are to call Gay-homosexual (both male and female) sin: Because the Bible clearly makes it known that it is sin (see e.g. Romans 1). We as Christians are to admonish one another to holiness, it's our duty to tell fellow Christians when they fall into sin and shortfall the glory of God.
As for you Mike, if you have not the least bit of conviction that you call yourself a Christian and a homosexual at the same time, it is CLEAR that the Holy Spirit is nowhere to be found in your life. Shape up, son, choose one or the other: Christ, sin. You can't have both. No, no, you can't justify yourself with others - I know what you're rationalizing right now. Doesn't matter what others are doing, you yourself have to shape up. It'll take struggle if you choose Christ, but pray and struggle: eternity counts on this.
Woe unto this North American church and how back sliden in sin it has become - wickedness and lawlessness abound - idolatry, adulatry, stealing, carelessness towards the Holy God: Christ is knocking at the door, will you open the door and share a meal with him, or will you keep the door shut (paraphrase Rev. 3)?
star: did you flag yourself? Your comment was there one minute after you posted it and then it was gone.
It's a good question: Why does homosexuality occupy such an important place in evangelicals' discussions? Is it more important than justice, for instance, about which Jesus spoke often? As much as I admire the Puritans (and this is NOT sarcasm), surely some of this interest in sex in the US and UK comes from both countries' years of being ruled by those Puritans. Why are many people so obsessed with someone else's sex life? This, I think, is "sicker" than homosexuality.
argyle86
There are two reasons why homosexuality gets so much more attention amongst Christians.
One is that, for sexual sins, the Bible only applies the word abomination to homosexuality. So it interpreted as being a much worse sin.
And second, homosexuality is the least understood amongst the sexual sins. It's is much harder to justify what we do not understand.
The church spends far too much time trying to correct homesexual practices while treating other sexual sins as less dangerous to the family.
Mike,
It its true that stealing, fornication, and adultery are just as well sins. however, the reason homosexuality is such a hot topic as opposed to these others is that people are not making an effort to justify these things because they are wrong even in the eyes of secular society. Almost everyone will agree christian or not that stealing is wrong. Homosexuality is different. so this is why it is debated and discused so much.
Something I noticed as I was reading through many of these posts is that many Christians are talking about homosexuality, then saying "just like other sins such as stealing, fornication, adultery, etc." Let's be honest folks: regardless of how God views sin, many of us classify sins as being really big or not so big, and I'm really quite tired of being put in the category of these horrible people. People who cheat on their spouses, who steal, they conjure up a very certain image in your mind. Yes, I am gay, but that really doesn't define me or make me some awful person. If you truly believe homosexuality is on the same grounds as other sins, lets throw out some more "practical" sins, being sins that we're more likely to commit (I feel like adultery and stealing are something that most people wouldn't do on a day-to-day basis, whereas things like lying, slandering someone's name, being lazy, being selfish are things we all do almost daily.) Please stop making gays sound like we're on the same playing field as murderers: we're really quite nice!
Danishmormon - we side with you on the gay issue, but on theological matters we couldn't be more separate as an - evangelical Christian.
Lina - You say gays are "nice and pleasant"? Are you talking about the same gay agenda folks that firebomb a school board members' vehicle because the rejected their perverted curriculum; or how about the ones that name call people who object to their lifestyle as bigots, hate-mongers, homophobic and the like; or the ones that hold gay pride parades in the our city streets naked and having sex openingly; continue to harass the scouts with lawsuits; intimidate and deface churches that call their lifestyle a sin; cause adoption agencies to close down because they won't allow gays to adopt - Do I need to continue?
Again with the "studies". The results can be made to reflect what the person/persons doing the study want. Who listens to this *&^%*(! Like "polls" they are manipulated in order to manipulate YOU!
1. If a Mormon can get on this site and treat the Christian religion with contempt, you know something is wrong.
2. A logical paradox: If we claim to be 'Evangelicals,' how is it that we are so unknown in the Heathen world?
My life is extemely blessed because I choose to follow God's desire for my life. He tells me what sins are and asks me not to engage in them. I don't always succeed. But I don't make a habit out of a particular sin.
Instead of telling everyone (erroneuosly, I might add) that this is the way God made me, so that's the way I'm going to stay...I say there is a way God wants me to be and I strive to acheive it. I'm not lazy like so many other Christians who are too fat (spiritually) to want to change, so they say "It's okay. God'll understand because He loves me."
Yeah, and I bet you don't discipline your children when they do wrong. If you did, then you wouldn't love them. If you say you love them, then you can't deny God's discipline when we sin (including homosexuality, lying, stealing, adultery, fornication, etc, etc)...and therefore you have no excuse.
lina,
It could be worse. He could be some crazy atheist who wants to put their soap box in a Christian website, on an article titled "Study: Evangelicals Lesser Known than Homosexuals" just to show how idiotic they are. I figure that any respectable and knowledgable atheist would make their own website, or at least patronize one, instead of trying uselessly to make their self-centered, egotistical point on a Christian site.
Plus, think about how annoying this is. Some crazy, wild-eyed evangelical screaming at you, reciting the Bible like some delusional parrot, accusing you of wrong-doing, condemning, judging....And they do this "out of love" as if they have some exclusive right to knowledge that no one's ever heard of (we have by the way). Who would want to be friends with people like that? They should prayed for - their lives must be miserable.
Of course more people know gay men or women than evangelicals. They are so much nicer and pleasant to be around, not to mention, the majority are free-thinkers. I pray for evangelicals daily.
I am Mormon so maybe whatever I say will be useless, but let me try. It might help if people knew what an Evangelical was. It also might help if Evangelicals quit changing their name and definition and that there are so many different kinds of Evangelicals. Some Evangelicals say they are Protestant. Some are denominational. Some are Reformed, some are Pentecostal, Some are non denominational and some are fundamentalist and some are even Catholic while others just say they are Christian. Now I think I have an idea of what an Evangelical is. Such a person believes in the Bible and salvation by faith through the Grace of Jesus and believe in the Holy Trinity. They believe in matters of Faith the Bible is inerant but may contain minor grammatical and historical errors. Unlike fundamentalist they do not wear old fashioned clothing or shun technology but unlike mainline Protestants they do not accept gay marriage or loose interpretation of scripture. They think Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and others are a cult and will spend eternity with Satan. Ok granted I may only be half right but give me a break I am a religious and blogger junkie. Most people just look at a church sign or a billboard or a missionary name tag. They do not have time to figure all this out. Maybe Evangelical churches should put on their buildings "An Evangelical Church." I know this is stupid but honestly how can somebody tell if you are Evangelical unless you market yourself as one? Maybe you could all wear a cross with a big E on top.
According to their site the study (http://ellisonresearch.com/releases/20080619.htm) just over 1000 people were polled. We have 7 times that many people in our church! How about if I survey 1/7th of the people at my church and see what the survey would say!
"The findings are from a study independently designed, funded, and conducted by Ellison Research among a representative sample of over 1,000 American adults.'
I agree that online4Him is right on and the opinion is based on the Holy Scriptures. What I want to know is why was homosexuality given such preference in the survey and included in the headline? It is a sin just like all the others, nothing more, nothing less. And any of us are cabable of it. . . . . read up on Sodom and Gormorrah - they weren't all born to be homosexuals. Sadly, our culture is turning the wrong direction - away from God and His Word. Wake up America if we expect God to really bless us.
mike2685, my friend I couldn't agree with you more, it's as if we all wear labels on our foreheads and then we pick our friends based on the label and to think they actually paid big bucks to have this done.
media is corrupt
how many people know a porn star?
but the blogger trashing chistians is a zit
blue1018
When you stand before God on judgment day condemned to hell becasuse of your sins you cannot point to any evangelical and say "It is all your fault, you didn't warn me, and now I must spend my eternity separated from God in eternal torment because I didn't repent."
"Is this because homosexuals are more open than evangelicals about who they are? Because Americans are more open to knowing a homosexual than an evangelical? Because evangelicals themselves are less likely to reach into the broader community to form relationships?" he posed.
The reason that Americans are more open to receive a homosexual than an evangelical is because a good percentage of them live a lifestyle which is antichristian. Very few in our culture today are willing to deny themselves on a daily basis, pick up their cross and follow Jesus. I am not solely speaking of homosexuality but also of the sins of adultery and fornication. The last couple places where I have worked most are hostile to the gospel because it gnaws at their conscience and disturbs their hedonistic worldview. Our American culture is quickly waning away; watch and pray saints.
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away 2Timothy 3:5.
I have to say, I think all gays and evangelicals should be offended by this study. First of all, they are intentionally trying to pit the 2 groups against each other (as if we really need help with that, but come on!) Second, why in God's name is money being spent on something like this? So what? So what if more people know someone who is gay than someone who is evangelical. How much money was spent to run this survey that instead could have been given to our nation's education system or to help set up shelters and food pantries. When I read about pointless things like this, I get so frustrated with how some agencies decide it necessary to spend their money!
tipique -
Prayer - YES! On our knees type!
Of course - you'll notice that I say "closeted" in the workplace. I know great evangelicals in the work place that are mum about their faith because "law" tells them to shut up. I once was pulled aside years ago and told to "stop proselytizing", though they didn't know what the word meant. They meant evangelizing. Just one person - not even really involved - complained. In order to keep their jobs, most evangelicals I know don't say much in their work environments unless it's directly to each other or after work. There's a finesse required these days to evangelize your work environment; unlike years past when you were considered a honorable person if you were a Christian.
Same with my friend too believer. I don't think most people think in those terms, evangelical,pentecostal or whatever. They either know you as a Christian, or identify you with some kind of denomination.
Getting off the topic, do you remember what article we were on where we talked about infants who die going to heaven and the reality of hell with viking?
rolln4him,
"Closeted" huh? Isn't that where we belong? If we were "closeted" more, our country wouldn't be in the state it's in don't you agree? Instead we use politicians to be the Holy Spirit for us.
What would happen if the Church returned to serious prayer - hell-shaking prayer - bringing down demonic strongholds kind of prayer?
I heard Jim Cymbala from Brooklyn Tabernacle in a sermon once say: "You didn't hear the Apostle Paul ringing his hands because of the fact that Nero was persecuting the Christians. And you didn't hear him trying to get God into the Roman schools. You didn't see him worried about Caligula being a transvestite."
If we pray, truly begin to cry out to God, what can the enemy (devil) do to us?
Good point - believer!
Most secular work environments are hostile to evangelical people and shut them down once they're revealed. Whereas, being a gay person is almost "in" and cool. My last work environment had gay couples holding hands walking the halls almost like school kids - though they were middle-aged. If I were to fling open my Bible at that place, I'd been hung! So it's no wonder that evangelicals are "closeted":)
I wonder how this report would have come out had they asked do you know a Baptist or a Methodist and so on. Even though I consider myself to be an evangelical Christian most of my family and non-Christian friends if you asked them would tell you I'm a Baptist or a Southern Baptist most if not any would refer to me as an Evangelical.