Updated 12:47 pm.EST, Sun November 22, 2009

Church|Sat, Jun. 28 2008 11:28 AM EDT

PCUSA Assembly Approves Deleting Gay Clergy Ban

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

The local presbytery or ordaining body would determine whether the gay or lesbian candidate meets those standards.

The vote comes a day after the Assembly approved a proposal to begin revising the Heidelberg Catechism – a document of the Reformed Christian faith – which would include removing the reference to "homosexual perversion" among a list of sinful behaviors.

In recent years, a small but growing number of PC(USA) congregations have voted to disaffiliate with the denomination over its liberal direction on Scripture and theology. While this week's Assembly votes are expected to spark another exodus of churches, one Presbyterian urges conservatives to do the opposite.

"Stay and compete," said William J. Weston, a sociology professor at Centre College in Danville, Ky.

Despite the ongoing attempts to liberalize church rules, Weston says the vast majority of people in the PC(USA) are conservative and believe in the essential tenets of the Reformed faith.

"The future is actually pretty bright for traditional Presbyterian faith. It is just the rules that are getting loosened, not so many of the people," he said in his latest blog post. "So stay and compete. How people vote with their feet matters the most in the end."

Past votes by the people back Weston's claim. In 1997 and 2000, the denomination's presbyteries had overwhelmingly rejected proposals to delete the "fidelity and chastity" requirement.

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  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    GRIN :)

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    In a pinch like that, wbmoore, I can really make the grand gesture.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:17 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    how biggie of you hlerwin

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You have my blessing as you leave. Go and find a church where everybody thinks just like you.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:51 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Ok, let's make this as simple as posssible. Homosexuals should have there own churches, and not destroy what is already in place. I would not try and make changes in their home, why come into mine??Homosexuality is a sin. Sin separates us from God. right?
    We are either of the Father's world or man's world, right? I don't want a minister ordained or otherwise leading me and my family as long as he is separated from God because of his or her's sins. It could be homosexuality, sexual affairs, embezzlement or a list of other possible sins. God is my Savior and Father in Heaven. A minister leads God's flock on earth, but they can't do a good job if they are separated from God in sin. How hard is this to figure out people. First you get a lost minister, then the flock becomes confused and lost and a church is gone forever. My family will leave the presbytery if they approve this later in the year. Thanks and God Bless.

  • igh »
    Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin, the minds of God and those who deny his Christ will never ever and I MEAN NEVER will come to terms, they will never agree never ever be at peace with one another. God is Holy and that is even something we cannot even grasp fully because it is so far above us like a molecule to a mountain! So there ya go, fair speeches and words cannot reconcile anything man to God. But God can reconcile man to himself!!! Its the way it is, we cannot please God with a mountain of gold and jewels, or with good deeds, or anything else. Only one thing pure and Holy can Reconcile us to God the Father and that is his Holy Son Jesus. His blood covers our sins , he is our Justification or total Payment to the Father. And that by only Faith. Just have to believe you are indeed a sinner that needs to be reconciled to God and that Jesus paid the price. Easy.
    Others dont love God and will do anything to rebel and show there contempt for God. The Saved will do anything God asks them to, and returns his Love. 2 sides, one winner so to speak. You have to choose as does lina what side you will be on.

    Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
    Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You are too kind, as "they" say, believer, to thank me for remarks, especially if they have a few doses of vitriol in them. I'll go look and see what I could have said that you would thank for.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin, I wholeheartedly agree we do need to listen to her concerns as she is truly a product of the postmodernistic world we live in. But your several references to her as an "acceptable Christian" sounded as if you were saying you believed she was oee so thanks for clearing that up. Also, thanks for your VBS comment as well.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    No, I certainly do not think lina claims to be a Christian. Still, I think Christians need to consider her "complaints" seriously. lina is not alone.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin, lina is not a Christian and in fact she has claimed just the opposite and what I think she means by privatizing God is to simply keep Him and anything associated with Him behind closed doors and not out in the public. But if you consider her a Christian I'd really be interested in hearing what you define as a Christian?

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Unless lina wants to take the trouble to defend that remark (which I doubt, since she seems long gone...), I'll never know what "privatizing" God could possibly mean.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:51 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You know, that part is strange to me, too. Not sure what lina meant.....

  • igh »
    Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin quoting lina:

    "Consequently, not only do I find religious belief delusional, but harmful. That's why it should be privatized."
    "Let's just take God out of the equation and privatizing him."

    yaaa! lets privatize God!! ummm can someone explain to me what that means exactly??

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Well, two responses so far, one considered and reasonable and one slightly crazy....

  • igh »
    Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:52 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    lol, hlerwin i dont think lina ever made the claim of Jesus as her Lord!
    Its simply a speech she cut and pasted here, she would make stalin and mao and the rest of the despots very Proud! its very reminescent of the whole communist propaganda machine. I say we give fidel castro a twenty one gun salute! (Preferably he is in front of it) But Justice isnt something the propagandists Love, they dismiss it for there form of control, eliminating all who stand in there way, controling the weak minded and using anyone to gain power. The ultimate game for communists is control so they can have more power!

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:49 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin, Linaa's post does'nt need reposting and your endorsement of it does nothing to win or keep the body of CHRIST together. Even born-again believer's can't understand THE LORD totally in this life - HE has told us so!The world is steadily declining because people have taken their eyes off of CHRIST and have been deceived into false beliefs, do not promote more false belief. IN JESUS NAME

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    In rereading over recent posts, if anyone's need re-posting, it's Lina's. She may not be an "acceptable Christian" for many on this Web site, but Christians need to seriously consider the points lina makes. Here are two.

    Lina’s comments from 7/2/08:
    And Prophet - I find it no substance in the Bible. Just orders. Like the Koran. An attempt to control the masses. It works for you. Great. Not for me. There is just no enough evidence for the claims of the Bible. There is much evidence in the works of Darwin, Einstein, and Watson (at least to me). The direction of our species has seemingly been heading in the right direction but at the expense of religion. Religion only comes to terms with scientific evidence stubbornly and often by conveniently reinterpreting its own texts to fit the new realities - essentially to save its own skin and retain a shred of legitimacy. Think of the world we're in. Evangelicals are obsessed with pro-life, anti-gay, anti-stem cell research, pro-Israel anti-diplomacy, anti-science issues (evolution, contraception, vaccination against HPV). They seemingly believe that failing to support these initiatives will bring out the end of the World. Can you think of anything more delusional? What 2 mature adults do naked in the privacy of their own home trumping fighting poverty? Consequently, not only do I find religious belief delusional, but harmful. That's why it should be privatized. The secular world doesn't need your picketing, your whining, your end-of-Western-Civilization-as-we-know-it doomsday scenarios. We don't need to be reminded of God's word or the Rapture. Not only do I know your texts well, I freely disbelieve in them.

    and

    I'll never get this. I will never understand god's purpose/need/want for creating a universe he will destroy, and so many billions of people, most of whom will burn in hell forever. Considering the vast amount of unbiased research conducted by the secular world, for the benefit of all humanity, religion has, in my eyes, been severely weakened; almost to the point of absolute dismissal. I really dislike the requirement for morality the religious ascribe to their texts. The world is less violent today because of the increasing absence of religion. That is obvious. Let's just take God out of the equation and privatizing him. There is no hope in weaving together the diverse beliefs of 6 billion into one universal religion. Muslims, Jews, and Hindus believe as strongly in their god(s) as you all do. So much so, they fear your afterlife. At one point do you say: I just have faith in my religion. I don't need to bark orders at anyone else. My faith has done little for the benefit of humanity (perhaps only for me in that provides me solace in the face of impending death). Humanity has been the only real driver of beneficial change. That is a fact.

  • Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:47 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    They're hearts are not united. They are tied to the world. Therefore, they do not fear the Lord. Their acts cannot glorify God whatsoever. They worship in the darkness.

    Psalm 86:11, 12 - "Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name. I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore."

    "A hypocrite has a double heart; let mine be single and entire for God, not divided between him and the world, not straggling from him." (Matthew Henry)

    Mat. 6:9 - "...Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”

    1 Pet. 1:16 - "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."

    Christians, be holy; be separate. Our Father, whose eyes cannot behold evil, takes pleasure in your prayers and supplications when ye are holy.

  • igh »
    Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ok , im sorry i edited the Title of this Article. Cant be like the enemy. Gotta tell the Truth.

  • igh »
    Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:24 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    PCUSA Assembly Approves Deleting Gay Clergy

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:06 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Matthew 29:18"Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

    Hmmmm...what Jesus said, or what hlerwin and his mother said...hmmmm...decisions, decisions...

  • Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin-

    "I interrupted, "But the Bible says that we should take the Gospel into all the nations on earth." Mother gave me a look and said, "Well, the Bible is just wrong about that part." I agree with my mother."

    That, right there, says it all about you.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wb, please don't ever apologize for being too theological, because there are many who come to these posts who need exactly what God is leading you to share with all of us, to include myself. Be blessed, believer.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Your pastor in Italy was right on. We can only assume the Bible is the word of God, or not (the other options are logically equivalent to saying they are not, because if it is not always the word of God, then it is based on our feelings/thoughts/desires/reasoning and not God).

    It really is all or nothing. The people who claim it is not, are trying to have all their cake and eat it too. Its either God's word or not. To say it becomes God's word, means there are times when it is not God's word, thus it is not God's word. To say it contains God's word is to say that it also contains things that arte not God's word - how do you know which is which?

    When we try to limit the word of God to something that we can interpret and use as we see fit, we harm ourselves and others - by putting ourselves on God's level.

    As you summarized what I have been saying, "if we reject certain passages of scripture because we don't agree with them or understand them then we must totally negate the validity of any other passages of scipture as well because they can't be trusted."

    Thanks for the kind words. Sorry my posts can bee too theological. I try to balance theology with practicality.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wb, your are truly hitting on all cylinders today with your posts. I've got to be honest many times I find your posts really theological in nature which causes me to really have to reread them and think them through, but today your posts are as plain as the nose on a person's face and so in synch with not only my heart but with the heart of God and God's Word. I had a pastor I fellowshipped with in Upstate New York who reminds me a lot of you, he's in the Atlanta area now. But getting to this post I had a Pastor in Italy who said there are four ways we can look at the Word of God, we can totally reject it, we can say it becomes the Word of God, we can say it contains the Word of God, or we can say in its' original manuscripts it is the Word of God. He then went on to say that only the last belief can be correct because as you have said to feet several times if we reject certain passages of scripture because we don't agree with them or understand them then we must totally negate the validity of any other passages of scipture as well because they can't be trusted. I always enjoy reading your posts but today God has used them to both bless me and affirm His truths in my own life and ministry as well, be blessed, believer.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:54 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    It is natural to come to the belief that the Bible is wrong about something when we put our selves/feelings/thoughts/reasoning on an equal or higher position than God.

    Thus when we see something that makes no sense, we do not look for an explantion to reconcile it with other scripture, but rather conclude out of hand that it is wrong.

    Thus when we see something we do not think/feel/reason is something we should do, then it makes sense to decide that part of the Bible is wrong.

    This way, we can pick and choose which parts of the Bible are 'true' (based upon if we agree with them) or 'not true' or 'wrong' (based upon if we do NOT agree with them).

    When we have no basis for what we belief, our beliefs and our reasoning and our feelings become more important than the word of God.

    In cases like this, it looks like we are putting ourselves in the place of God in our lives. I worry for those who do this.

  • Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:41 am Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

    Jehovah said that His people would become lukewarm and seek out those who would only speak sweet words and make you feel good about yourself. Here is an example of throwing out Jehovah's Word, The Holy Bible, and writing your own scripture, to do just that.

    Nothing says "We don't believe in God." better than turning your back on The Scriptures.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:36 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin,

    "But the Bible says that we should take the Gospel into all the nations on earth." Mother gave me a look and said, "Well, the Bible is just wrong about that part." I agree with my mother."


    Either you and your mother are completely ignorant of the Christian faith, or your two are extremely selfish and uncharitable. If Jesus came to save sinners and asked us to spread the good news, then either you do not believe it to be good news or you do not believe others are necessarily worthy of hearing the good news. This would be like withholding a known cure from those people who need it.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:28 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    My entry below appears on three articles. Please don't think I am spamming my stuff. I just didn't know where I wanted to put it.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:23 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    God's Word is truth (John 17:17) and Jesus is the only way to God the Father and eternal life (John 14:6).

    "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)

    "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in who they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Roman 10:14)

    "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:15-16)

    "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Hebrews 9:37)

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him sould not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

    "But God commendeth his love towards us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

    "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23)

    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

    "...Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:30-31)

    "That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."(Romans 10:9)

    "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Romans 3:21)

    "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17)

    "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:....And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Rev 21:1,27)

    Rev 20:11-15

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

  • igh »
    Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:07 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin said in his post, a conversation with his mom:
    "But the Bible says that we should take the Gospel into all the nations on earth." Mother gave me a look and said, "Well, the Bible is just wrong about that part." I agree with my mother."

    i cannot believe this. is this True? Do you and your mom really from your heart believe this?

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:22 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin, I can't force it on anyone, but I struggle when I hear someone who professes to be a Christian who appears to have no problem ignoring God's Great Commission when it comes to joining God in reaching the lost in the world to Christ. But once again now that I know your view it makes perfect sense and I do and will respect you right to hold that view, but it troubles me not only for the sake of the Great Commission it also troubles me with regards to your own spiritual well being as well.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    That's your belief. That's fine. But don't force it on me.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:52 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    hlerwin, dejavu huh! Believe hlerwin's mother or believe God and God's Word, well no offense to your mother but I'll continue to believe and obey God. But now that I know your view that you believe that Jesus is not the only way, not the only truth, and not the only life that one must use to come unto the Father it makes sense why you would believe this way about evangelism. If I believed as you do I too would lose the intensity and passion I have for joining God in reaching the lost for Christ before it is everlastingly to late for them and they wind up seperated from God for eternity. But I don't and with the Lord's help and strength I won't!

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    For busybody, from a post I just made at another article: I'm reminded of something my mother said maybe 5 years ago. At 93 now, she is a wise woman and a woman of faith. Before the Iraq war, some American missionaries were captured in Iraq, along with some Scandinavians. On the TV news were pictures of people in Norway and in Minnesota (I think) praying for the release of the Christian missionaries. When the next news story came on, Mother looked up and said, surprising me, "You know, I've always thought missionaries were sort of buttinskis." I was amazed. "What?" I asked. "You think they are butting in somewhere?" "Yes," Mother said, "over there in the Middle East. They should just stay home once they get back." (The group was, in fact released the next day.) The lady continued, "How would we feel if those people came over here and tried to get us to change our religion? We would not like it one bit, I'll tell you." I interrupted, "But the Bible says that we should take the Gospel into all the nations on earth." Mother gave me a look and said, "Well, the Bible is just wrong about that part." I agree with my mother.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:24 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    matthewr1
    You have said....
    "So conclusion: anyone who has a sinful lifestyle (one who lives in sin, e.g. homosexuals, adulterers, one who loves money, alcohol, etc.) should be barred from the Ministry. Unfortunately in today's church, this kind of accountability is rare."

    I completely agree with your comments.

    If people serving in the church are not held accountable for all of the sins you have mentioned, then we have invited the Enemy to take a seat before the throne of God.

    This is an even greater abomination.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:40 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin, if that remark was meant for me, I am taking care of my own house, part of my responsibility as a Director of Missions is to come alongside churches in our association to assist them in becoming a strong healthy Great Commission church that is effectively reaching the lost for Christ and helping Christians to grow and mature in Christ. The reason why some of them are not becoming that is because of their refusal to deal with known sin in their church. One of the first things I ask the church is that very question and I also try to get a feel for what the community thinks about the church as well and several times I've discovered that the church's either unwillingness or inability to deal with known sin in the church has caused them to become ineffective in impacting their community for Christ. Plus I also ask that same question to pastors who sense that they are not effectively leading their churches, I ask them to prayerfully consider if there is unconfessed sin in their life that is keeping them from leading an effective Christian life and keeping them from effectively leading their church. I also ask myself that question as well and if doing those things makes me a "busybody" then I "busybody" I am.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    When you talk about the "Great Commission," do you ever consider what a busybody you appear to be? Take care of you own house.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    matthewr1, you bring up a very valid point that is often overlooked by many, that is those so-called "private" sins that impact the entire body of a local church. If a church is aware that a member of the church and especially a member in a leadership role in the church is willfully living in sin we are clearly given instructions by Christ in Matthew of how to deal with that member, always remembering that restoration of the member is the ultimate goal, but if we refuse to hold a member accountable the church as well as the member will reap the consequences of that sin regardless of what the sin is. I have personally seen local churches whose testimony and effectiveness as a Great Commission church has been stifled if not totally destroyed because they have become a joke in their community for not dealing with known sin in the body. And even though they may finally deal with the sin problem it will take them years to regain their credibility if ever in their community. Even though non-believers may mock us many whether they admit it or not respect Christians for being true to our beliefs but when they see us allowing things to go on that they know are contrary to our biblical beliefs we give them permission to call us the hypocrites they've always thought we might be. As tough as it is for a local church to make an impact for Christ in their community we don't need to give the community the ammunition they need to label us irrelavent.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And for Daniel Paul:
    That's fine. I tell you what: you go to your church, and I'll go to my church. What you and I "think" Jesus "thinks" about your church and my church cannot really be argued by our finite minds (which I just mentioned in another post). The more I ponder, the more I realize how finite my mind really is!

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    In fact, for folks who do things liturgically (which lets out most American "evangelicals," I realize) there is something called “the surety of the sacraments”. Now, we could argue all week about this idea. Nevertheless, the Christian church has operated "liturgically" for most of its existence. Some of those imperfect priests before the Reformation certainly helped teach others to become holy. I hope this can't be denied by anyone posting here. Jesus (or St. Paul) founded the church for a mostly illiterate population. Sometimes I think we "moderns' or too literate for our own good. We get trapped by the words, which, after all, are of comparatively recent origin. (I mean, when you consider how long humans have been on the earth.)

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:01 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    The PCUSA started in disobedience to the Word and are still consistant!

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wrhalver:

    You're right in saying Homosexuality is not the only sin in the Church. The problem comes when a person goes into Ministry - they are held in higher accountability according to God's Word (see e.g. 1 Timothy Chapter 3 for a list of guidelines for a person becoming bishop/pastor).

    When you allow homosexuals to become pastors, you discredit large bodies of Scripture (namely the guidelines of becoming a teacher [which is also found elsewhere outside 1 Tim 3]).

    I'm not confining my criticism to simply homosexuality (although homosexual conduct is certainly one of the criticisms); I'm also saying people who want to become teachers, yet they're living in adultery, they have problems with alcohol, chronic liars, unholy lifestyles and the like - they should also be barred from teaching.

    The problem is: If a person is living in a sinful lifestyle, how can he teach others to become holy? The answer is, he (or she) simply can't. Now you have a whole congregation full of sinners who are comfortable in their filthy lifestyles, all because the homosexual (or other sinful lifestyle) Pastor is either: A. endorsing the sinful life or B. the Pastor does nothing about it, because it would be hypocritical.

    So conclusion: anyone who has a sinful lifestyle (one who lives in sin, e.g. homosexuals, adulterers, one who loves money, alcohol, etc.) should be barred from the Ministry. Unfortunately in today's church, this kind of accountability is rare.

    I hope this helps.

  • Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:15 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "But with discussion on ordination standards having gone on for 30 years, the Rev. Susan Fisher of Pacific Presbytery felt "compelled" to advance the amendment to the presbyteries to "let the wider church decide if now is the time” to change the standards"

    After 30 years of discussion the vote was 380-325. By no means a mandate, but it is obviously consuming a great deal of time which could be spent concentrating on more important ministry issues.

    Homosexuality is not the only sin hurting the family, or individuals.

  • Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Here we go again. The worst part is they're just opening the floodgates for these perverts to lead all sorts of people astray. God is going to seriously judge both the States and Canada for the church's sinful perversion.

  • Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 7

    Who said I was celebrating? If anything, gays should be PROTECTED from the likes of heterosexual marriage. You people have sullied it for generations.

  • Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:54 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    john14-6,

    I've thought the same thing. It seems that the Catholic Church and the conservative autonomous evangelical groups are the only ones growing, while the other demoninations are imploding in upon themselves. Come on people... the experiment has been tried and has been amiserable failure. Welcome everyone without condition of repentance and conversion does not increase membership (not that numbers are the objective - teaching truth is). But according to conventional wisdom, if you welcome everyone without exception, your numbers should grow. It's not happening. Typically, it's those that teach the truth, unpopular as it may be, that attracts.

  • Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    argyle86

    Want to know when the moon will turn 'red', go to the following link

    www.prophecyinthenews.com

    and click on

    Interview with Mark Biltz on Solar and Lunar Eclipses in 2014/2015 Pt 1 and Pt 2.

    It is very interesting.

  • Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I wonder how soon the moon will start turning red....

  • Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chicago24--

    Well, considering that the people of California are going to pass an amendment to the state constitution that prohibits gay marriage, and considering that a protection of marriage amendment to the United States constitution has been reintroduced, I'd say your little celebration is going to be a short one.

    The Bible speaks clearly about the evil reveling in their sin, and what the eternal consequences will be on the day of judgment. Just remember, Jesus loves you and without him, you're lost.

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