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Education|Mon, Jun. 30 2008 03:58 PM EDT

La. Governor Signs 'Science Education Act'

By Alexander J. Sheffrin|Christian Post Reporter

Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal signed into law last week a measure that would grant teachers and students the freedom to challenge and examine critically the tenets of Darwinism in the classroom.

The so called “Science Education Act,” the latest in a series of academic freedom bills that have swept across as many as six states, cruised through the state legislature with unanimous levels of approval.

Lawmakers said that the new law will help bring an end to allegations that teachers and students who share views contradicting or challenging the tenets of Darwinism in the classroom are marginalized, discriminated, or ostracized.

The law will also help to supply teachers with supplementary textbooks that will give greater freedom in the classroom to analyze and critique existing scientific theories concerning evolution.

While supporters of the measure say the recent measure is an important step in securing safe academic environments where “critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories” are cherished, detractors say that the new law represents nothing more than a masked agenda to install religion in schools.

Americans United, which was just one among the many groups that tried to urge Gov. Jindal to veto the bill on the basis that it was a violation of the separation between church and state, blasted the new law in a series of statements.

"Louisiana has a long and unfortunate history of trying to substitute dogma for science in ... classrooms," AU executive director Rev. Barry Lynn said, according to Reuters.

“Americans United and other groups contend that ‘supplemental materials’ are likely to be anti-evolution books, DVDs and other items produced by fundamentalist Christian ministries,” the group said.

Supporters of the law, however, say that the language used in the measure is clear regarding the separation between church and state.

“The proposed Louisiana law expressly states in Section 1C that it ‘shall not be construed to promote any religious doctrine, promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs, or promote discrimination for or against religion or nonreligion,’” said Dr. John West, vice president for Public Policy and Legal Affairs at Discovery Institute, in a statement.

West, who represents the largest intelligent design think-tank in the nation, emphasized that neither his nor any other organization’s views would be favored under the new law. The measure is about promoting fairness, he said.

"Intelligent design is currently not in the Louisiana state science standards and so could not be taught. But this allows scientific criticisms of Darwin's theory to be taught," he concluded, according to Reuters.

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  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:02 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    Another Former Atheist NOW believes in God! "I've found God," says man who cracked the genome. Francis Collins, the scientist who led the team that cracked the human genome is to publish a book explaining why he now believes in the existence of God and is convinced that miracles are real.

    You can read more about it on the right-hand side panel of this featured site below in the section called "In the News."

    ATHEISM is a CATASTROPHIC FAILURE

    http://www.evolutionfacts.blogspot.com

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Its the afternoon here, I've just had lunch.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You are welcome steveh20. Have a good day today.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thank you for sharing that star, I appreciated it.
    Steve

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    steveh20

    Life does exist after you are dead. You memory, your senses, and your ability to talk and reason do not cease to exist.

    I knew of four people who died and came back to life. One was an associate at work who was a Jew. Before he died he did not believe in God; he was an atheist. He told me that when he died he said that he was traveling down a dark tunnel. Then all of a sudden he was brought back to life. After the experience he said he knew that there was an afterlife and that there was a God. He didn't know whose God to believe in. He searched all the major religions of the world and settled on Judaism.

    The second person I knew was a personal friend of mine. She was a Catholic at the time; later she became a born-again Christian. She got hit by a car and died on the way to the hospital. At the hospital the doctors were able to bring her back to life. She experienced a heavenly place. There were streets of gold, beautiful flowers and etc just like the Christian Bible describes.

    The third person was a stranger I met at a McDonalds while traveling from Houston, Tx to Ft. lauderdale, Fl. We were in line waiting to place our order. I felt compelled by God to witness to him the Lord Jesus Christ. He recounted to me how he died and had come back to life. Before he died he said that he was afraid of death. He said that he didn't believe in a life after death. When he died he went down a dark tunnel. He talked with a being of light that said that he could go to heaven if he lived a righteous life. Afterwards he was brought back to life. He said he now is no longer afraid of death, knows that there is a life after death, and believe he will go to Heaven if he lives a righteous life. Of course, this is false. What he encountered was Satan, who transformmed himself into an angel of light, to deceive him into believing that all he needed to do was live righteously to go to heaven. I told him that he needed Jesus to go to heaven. He said, "I don't need your Jesus." I just shook my head and asked God to save him.

    The fourth person is a Baptist minister. His name is Don Piper. He gave his testimony in my Church of what he experienced in Heaven when he died. He was killed in a head on collision with an 18 wheeler. He was dead for 90 minutes before he came back to life. He recounts his experiences in a book he wrote entitled "90 Minutes in Heaven-A True Story of Death and Life". You can read something about his book at http://www.amazon.com/SELECTIONS-Minutes-Heaven-Inspiring-beyond/dp/0800719093/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215495214&sr=1-1

    Dr. Rawlings wrote a book and made a documentary called "To Hell and Back". The documentary gives five testimonies of which 4 of them are from atheist, who died, went to hell and came back to life. All five became born-again. The documentary is well worth the watch. You can view it free at

    http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Rawlings/Dr_Rawlings_Near_Death_Experiences.htm

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    viking

    Yes you are quite right, however I do not see that the absence of evidence means that anything is possible, I think your playing word games in this instance, unless of course you have some evidence by perchance?

    Best wishes

    Steve

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Hi Steveh20,
    Regarding One day I will be dead, the evidence seems to point (nde, etc..are not evidence) to there being nothing after that.
    I will accept that there is extremely good evidence for the first half of this statement but I am unclear on the second half. Could you help me out with the "evidence" pointing to there being nothing after that. Remember in Science, law and logic the absence of evidence is not evidence.

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    *So evolutionists can work to have him fired?*

    wbmoore,

    Oh Touche~! looks like it's quite the contrary here. Gee, one must wonder why this instance of barring teachers wasn't highlighted in his stinker of a film?

    http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080707/fmr-science-director-sues-over-neutral-policy-on-intelligent-design.htm

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    *are you opposed to the open debate of evolution? And Why?*

    Slacker, please comprehend the difference here. Dispute on the veracity of science and its evidences is to be done in the labs and universities of professionals, as they are working with the latest evidence first hand and know which instances are more questionable then others.

    What isn't and shouldn't be done is to debate the issues in 4th grade science class. If you would like to bring forth actual articles of evidence, or lack there of, where you think it would be worhtwhile discussing why they should or shouldn't be taught as such in schools, by all means post them here. Let's get it out in the open already. You and others say there are weaknesses, so lets hear them already. CITE your stuff too.

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    *They declared war on us and attacked our country. They started it and we're going to finish it.*

    Totally off topic, but to think this whole time their whole gripe with us was that we are in THEIR lands. Put this on its head, how do you think we'd respond if the Chinese, or Arabs or others by fiat decided to build huge military bases in our lands? Mighten we find these same acts as something to be offended by?

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    No toad, it is so we can validate what is what and if in fact mathetes is being truthfull or not. As far as we know he doesn't have a close friend who works in biology, let alone one who is published. How can we actually know until it's verified? Thus why I asked.

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "if the person is published, lets have his name"

    So evolutionists can work to have him fired?

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    *Come on, cccccccc, YOU passed judgment on a published,respected PhD*

    Well, if the person is published, lets have his name. I know where to look for such articles (NSA, NSB,) so let's get the name so we can review his work(s). For all we know he's just like Jonathan Wells, who hasn't achieved a thing in biology and yet b/c he graduated with such a degree he is somehow a reputable person on the matters?

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Slacks

    My life has meaning because I give it meaning.

    One day I will be dead, the evidence seems to point (nde, etc..are not evidence) to there being nothing after that so my life here and now counts for everything. So what do I do.....

    I live as if each minute was my last (metaphorically) I love my wife, my kids, my friends, I try to bring no harm to anybody and deal with all fairly, to be a man of my word, I strive to understand the world about me and pass on the wonder to others...

    If I get to refect on my life just before I die,if I can look back and see I at least tried in these endevours I will have spent my time well.

    If your religion gives meaning to your life and reflects what I have written above, thats fine by me, this is not a contest.

    Steve

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mathetes,

    *So I would not call it land walking…*

    It had limbs, it didn’t need fully digit formed limbs to actually move about on land, that is the point. All it needed was *good enough* limbs, it didn’t need fully integrated limbs for sprinting like current mammals or certain reptiles have. Partially formed nub limbs would have sufficed and provided at least some competitive advantage over others which didn't have such limbs. Even with such nubs it could venture onto land and exploit 1) new resources & 2) new habitats, thus furthering its evolution.

    *We would need to know whether Tik. had a 2 or 3 chambered heart, etc. Let's call it an amphibian*

    Ummm, ok. So you’re saying Acanthostega is a fish (and why) and somehow rationalize that Tiktaalik was an amphibian? Ok, but why, where is the drawing line with respect to both?

    * It's quite different than any other fish or amphibian known today.*

    Indeed they are, and that is exactly what the point is. Nothing today is quite like any of those, they were neither totally fish like nor totally amphibian like.

    * Dr Colin Patterson, Senior Palaeontologist at the British Museum (Natural History) in London*

    Well, if he’s citing Goulds work, then obviously it’s not including more recent finds like Tiktaalik, thus why his quotes can be construed in such a manner. Had he known of this specimen and other recent ones, his views could be different. More evidence tends to alter ones views.

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:44 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ccccccc: For the most part I agree with you on this one. Evolution is a fact, however every scientific theory (no matter how rigorously tested) has weaknesses . . . or opportunities if you want to call them that. It could be argued that we know more about evolution than we do about gravity so it could be said that the theories surrounding gravity have some weaknesses (or opportunities) and yet we're all still firmly planted on the ground. If we knew everything there was to know about evolution, it wouldn't make studying it very much fun anymore. We're learning more and more about it everyday. Cheers.

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:07 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    "Darwin gave us a freedom most people are not willing to accept. We have to be ethical without fear of divine punishment. We have to live a life of virtue for its own sake because there is no Heaven awaiting us. We have to accept our mortality and justify the satisfaction of living without the existence of an afterlife. No religion has ever given humans such unrestricted freedom, such a responsibility, and such a task. Darwinâ??s theory of evolution by natural selection gives humans, with their evolved brains, a capacity for self-examination, for wonder, for deeper meaning, and for the nurturing values that sustain us in our relatively short stay in this unbroken journey of life that now extends over three billion years. And that is why Darwin deserves to be called a Great Emancipator. "

    Don't forget to put on the list of his great achievements that with evolution he takes away hope, drives people to believe they are worthless because like you said we all came from the same primordial soup and mean nothing to no one therefore we are worthless, and put on there that with that freedom we have from evolution we are free to destroy life everyday again because it means nothing right??? its amazing you say religion doesn't give you freedom, i feel free from sin, it sounds as tho hatred is driving you....

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:01 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    "They never get away with it because they always lose in court, but they continue to attack America's science education anyway. The creationists who constantly attack science education are traitors and they belong in prison."

    So the question I have for you is this, are you opposed to the open debate of evolution? And Why?

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:00 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "If the ignorant creationists had their way, the key concept of biology, evolution, would be removed from science classrooms. The result would be bored students who learn to hate science. That's just what the creationists want. They want their children and everyone else's children to hate and fear science just as much as they do. They want to replace all of science with their childish idiotic supernatural magic."

    Oh look Bob's back....

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:56 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    "I thank God for Mr. Jindal..It is abut tim for students to be able to discuss both sides of this..the evolution theory is just that some ones appion not fact..so I think it is good that his mind is open to this. and give teachers something else to teach..I think Dp and occcc need a life...Gods life..yea!!!! "

    The thing is TJ, this legislation isn't about teaching an alternate theory, it is about letting teachers and students debate evolutionary theory without fear of retribution from school administrators...

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Just FYI, those of us who have ADHD tend to do several things at the same time! I use to run two computers at the same time in a prepress environment and would run 3-4 studios at the same time when I was in radio (what, you think they just sit there?).

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:34 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    tjeasterly--why thank you! This site has actually become somewhat of a hobby between taking care of my two kids still at home, voluteering at church and in the community.

    It's kind of like finding someone worth playing chess with. Not all of us are young and spunky you know!

    So, here's my question...isn't hope for the hopeless part of the foundation of the life given by God through Christ?

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I thank God for Mr. Jindal..It is abut tim for students to be able to discuss both sides of this..the evolution theory is just that some ones appion not fact..so I think it is good that his mind is open to this. and give teachers something else to teach..I think Dp and occcc need a life...Gods life..yea!!!!

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:19 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "Theodosius Dobzhansky was a noted geneticist and evolutionary biologist , and a central figure in the field of evolutionary biology for his work in shaping the unifying modern evolutionary synthesis."

    He was an evolutionist bent on proving evolution was correct. What did you expect him to say. I know many reputable doctors and scientist which make the same type of statement concerning only through belief in God. So, what's your point. You have your 'experts' and I have my 'experts'. You have your science stuff and I have my science stuff. What's your point?

    I don't believe evolution as a whole is a myth. It's even spoken of in Genesis. I have an open mind. Still, I believe in what I have experienced. This is why the Bible says to bear witness...be prepared to explain the hope that is in you.

    ccccc-you have no hope...only your science. Your hopelessness comes through in each post as you slice and dice people instead of discussing logically. Even other evolutionists will not come to your defense. I am far less concerned about evolution than I am about your hopelessness.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Dishonestly calling a research opportunity a weakness is exactly what I would expect from a uneducated creationist who want to pretends his childish creation myth might be true."

    Perceived weekness is always a research opportunity. Someone who agrees with me rarely challanges me to research. The drive to support ones own beliefs is one of the strongest drives to research. It is also one of the strongest drives to grow ones knowledge.

    ...and there you go again...we could start posting 'evolution myth' but that would be rude!!! You cannot even absolutely prove to me that you exist. You could be a programmed response from a very powerful computer! Even if you called me I could deny your existance! I could say your entire existance is a myth. You would be hard pressed to prove me wrong. It's an old psyc game used to develop logical thought.

    The flaw in your arguement is you assume you are correct based on data you have gathered which has convinced you. This is not a scientific arguement. You argue from passion and not logic. It works against you.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    steveh20--the problem comes in when they go around flying airplanes into our buildings killing thousands. We tend to get a bit bent out of shape about things like that....

    They declared war on us and attacked our country. They started it and we're going to finish it. Fool us once shame on them...fool us twice...ain't gonna happen unless Obama gets elected.....

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:58 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    ifeelfine72: "... and that's only if evolution is being taught for a week or more"

    Unfortunately there are many incompetent high school biology teachers who teach evolution only as a separate unit, lasting only a week.

    The best biology teachers know "nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (quote from Theodosius Dobzhansky), so they make evolution a major part of every single biology lesson every single day. That's the only correct way to teach biology. Making evolution part of every lesson makes biology more interesting and the students are more likely to love science instead of being bored by it.

    If the ignorant creationists had their way, the key concept of biology, evolution, would be removed from science classrooms. The result would be bored students who learn to hate science. That's just what the creationists want. They want their children and everyone else's children to hate and fear science just as much as they do. They want to replace all of science with their childish idiotic supernatural magic.

    They never get away with it because they always lose in court, but they continue to attack America's science education anyway. The creationists who constantly attack science education are traitors and they belong in prison.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Daniel, Please say thanks from me too. I am proud of him. And I am proud of my foster daughter who has signed up and is waiting to go to boot camp.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    ifeelfine72 said: "The weaknesses of evolution (and there are a few) are typically so far over the head of a high schooler that they aren't really appropriate to the teaching of evolution with that age group. If you give students an open forum like that, most the supposed "weaknesses" will be things parroted from either ID talking heads or people with a high degree of misinformation. For example, talking about the Cambrian Explosion, "irreducible complexity" and so on - these things have been refuted time and time again and to give the opportunity for students to present the "weaknesses" of evolution only takes away from valuable classroom time. The caviat I might add would be that talking about the "weaknesses" take no more than 5-10 minutes and that's only if evolution is being taught for a week or more (giving 5-10 minutes in a week long session is more than fair given that even that amount of time could overstate the "weaknesses" and lend credence that there might be some real ones)."

    ifeelfine72, Your comments were very good but I strongly disagree with your "The weaknesses of evolution (and there are a few)".

    Please read these quotes:

    This is from the blog of a biology professor: "Big exciting unanswered questions like the origin of life exist in science, but scientists said this first, and furthermore consider them research opportunities, not flaws."

    From a newspaper article: "Evolution as a principle is not disputed in the scientific mainstream, where the term 'theory' does not mean a hunch, but an explanation backed by abundant observation, and where gaps in knowledge are not seen as grounds for doubt but points for future understanding."

    Evolution does not have weaknesses. It has opportunities to learn more.

    Evolution has "points for future understanding" and "research opportunities". Evolution does not have weaknesses.

    Would you say our planet's orbit around the sun has weaknesses? No, of course you wouldn't. Our planet's orbit is a proven scientific fact.

    Evolution is also a proven scientific fact and the evidence for it is so massive it can be called the strongest fact of science. If you say proven facts of evolution have weaknesses you are just repeating the lies of ignorant creationists.

    There will forever be more to learn about the history of life and that's a good thing. It's what makes evolution so interesting. Claiming a proven scientific fact like evolution has weaknesses just because of some gaps in our knowledge is just plain dumb.

    Dishonestly calling a research opportunity a weakness is exactly what I would expect from a uneducated creationist who want to pretends his childish creation myth might be true.

    Definitely teachers should talk about future and current research that will eventually increase our knowledge of life's history. But calling research opportunities "weaknesses of a proven scientific fact" is just plain dishonest.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:24 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    http://www.darwinday.org/englishL/newsviews/darlin.html

    If humans accept that they too have evolved, whatever purposes they assign, they do so by their own choice.

    This means humans are free of revealed knowledge from a non-existent creator; they are free to make choices; they are obliged to learn and to think. They are responsible for their actions and values.

    Darwin gave us a freedom most people are not willing to accept. We have to be ethical without fear of divine punishment. We have to live a life of virtue for its own sake because there is no Heaven awaiting us. We have to accept our mortality and justify the satisfaction of living without the existence of an afterlife. No religion has ever given humans such unrestricted freedom, such a responsibility, and such a task. Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection gives humans, with their evolved brains, a capacity for self-examination, for wonder, for deeper meaning, and for the nurturing values that sustain us in our relatively short stay in this unbroken journey of life that now extends over three billion years. And that is why Darwin deserves to be called a Great Emancipator.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    DP

    I'm not saying I have any better ideas, what I am saying is that just because somebody does not agree with the way you go about doing something it does not mean they do not see there is a problem.

    Thankfully we have the BBC, the best news broadcaster in the world.

    Keep well.

    Steve

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Steve--having lived in a place where terrorists live (Zomboanga, Philippines) I can tell you there is only one way to deal with them. They want us dead. They don't want anything else. Either we die or they die. Their choice.

    Iraq and Iran funded terrorism in the area I lived in and everyone knew it. That was in the mid 70's and they haven't stopped. I've seen it first hand. I could see the 2 factions of extremists lob mortor shells at each other at night. The plane my parents were suppose to be on was hijacked and blown up on the ground.

    Why doesn't the media report stuff like this? They lie. They don't want people to realize just how dead set the extremists are and that killing them is the only way to stop them.

    Maybe you have a better idea as to how to stop someone who is completely brainwashed into believing they must kill all westerners without question or compassion.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:52 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Daniel Paul

    I tend to think that many American (and Europeans) understand that the terrorists would love to destroy western culture but don't agree with "some" of the ways America (and other countries) go about it. I think you have these two issues confused.

    Regards

    Steve

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    What is sad is that people loose their jobs for suggesting that there are weaknesses and disagreements within the scientific community concerning evolution. There is not safe environment to have a position that suggests it is wrong, or even that it might be right but that the evidence is not in yet. You have to toe the party line or get fired.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:21 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    this is an embarrassment to the human intellect. no wonder one of the worst education states passed this bill.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    daniel, the church I last pastored before coming to this position was right outside Fort Drum in Upstate New York and I was there when 9/11 hit. The 10th were some of the first units sent into Afghanistan and several of our families were military and I was prior military so I can truly empathize with what you said.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Thanks, believer. I will. We were at the Home Depot the other day. We had just gotten pictures done so he was in uniform. Someone came up to him and thanked him. It caught him a bit off guard but it made him feel proud!

    Too many Americans don't understand the war on terror. It's so difficult for people to understand all the terrorists want is to eliminate western culture from the planet. It simply doesn't make sense to them.

    Just another sign we have lost the concept of critical thinking in this country I suppose....

    Thanks again....

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    daniel, please thank your son for his service to his country that allows us the freedoms we are enjoying today which is sadly lacking in so many other countries.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hi, all! I try to respond to any replies to anything I have posted. However, my son has been on leave from the Army the past week and my wife's birthday was yesterday (talk about a real 'independence day' for her mother...) so I just wanted say sorry if I dropped a ball in a thread over the past week.

    It's hard enough to keep up when I check in every day! Quite frankly, it's difficult to get a conversation with 'thinkers' in my neck of the woods. I think Jeff Foxworthy comes to our county to get new material.

    We have a family who has been in these parts for 7 generations! I was talking with one from the 5th generation. He asked me: "Do you know why it's so hard for the law to get a convition around here? ...all the DNA is the same and there's no dental records!" ...and he and his are from here!

    Thanks for the higher level of discussion! I am glad we live in a country where we are free to discuss, disagree and believe as we choose. Hope you had a good 4th!

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    ccccc--"Look, I did not slander anyone."

    You seem to have a different dictionary from the rest of us....

    "slander- the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage anothers reputation"

    cccc-"A Bible quote and two Liars-for-Jesus websites"

    See, the difference is I don't believe you are a liar. I believe we have different views on the same subject. I strongly believe what I believe concerning God and Jesus.

    When Paul spoke to people in the book of Acts he used the example of "the unknown god" which they believed in and did so in their own temple! To do so he would have needed to have quite an understanding of their position. I have no fear at all of learning all I can about evolution. In fact, it's a hobby of mine. You, on the other hand, seem to have great hate of even accepting another position let alone learning about it. You would have to understand our Christian and other beliefs if you are going to 'play at our level' of discussion here.

    Simply put you have a great prejudice against anything which isn't in the evolution camp. One can have different views without being prejudice. In fact, prejudice is opposed by both science and the Bible. Both simply appoach the discussion from a different foundational premise.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ifeelfine,
    Hi yes I agree. In our curriculum we only expect our AP bio students to have the background knowledge and academic discipline to address these topics.

  • Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Man`s own science has proven that you cannot create "order" from "disorder" ; and "knowledge cannot create itself" , nor learning from it without having an original source of orderly knowledge to start from !!!

  • Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Viking,

    My responses are numbered the same as your conditions:

    1. It is fine to have a solid grasp of the actual science and workings of evolution theory, but you have put a condition that is self defeating, you have said that this teacher must acknowledge the overwhelming validity of the theory. That would be like saying, "You can criticize communism if you demonstrate that you understand that it is the best ideology to govern people by" or if you like, "You can criticize the existence of God, if you have demonstrated that you understand that the existence of God is the best explanation for the universe"

    If I could offer an alternative condition, I would leave it the same without insisting that the teacher must demonstrate that he understands that evolution is overwhelmingly valid.

    2. No problems, except I do not fully understand the last point. Are you saying that the teacher should understand that the theory of evolution cannot explain all phenomena related to bio-diversity, and thus some apparent "gaps" would appear, or that the theory can explain all phenomena related to bio-diversity and that there may be some minor gaps that the teacher ought to understand? My point is that the teacher should understand what evolution says, how it explains nature, but that if the teacher or scientist finds some major gap or lacking point in the theory, that this ought to be discussed and challenged. (Knowing that the theory of evolution may be true and we do not have the correct information for these gaps, or that it may be that the theory is false).

    3. Accepted, if you agree that some revisions may change the face of a theory radically, or that some theories appear true when we have a certain limited information, but then are later shown false when we have better information (all theories do not simply get reinforced, some get dropped, others change a good deal)

    4. Agreed.

  • Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    http://tinyurl.com/6e5cfe

    "Evolution as a principle is not disputed in the scientific mainstream, where the term 'theory' does not mean a hunch, but an explanation backed by abundant observation, and where gaps in knowledge are not seen as grounds for doubt but points for future understanding. Over time, research has strengthened the basic tenets of evolution, especially as advances in molecular genetics have allowed biologists to read the history recorded in the DNA of animals and plants."

    Especially important: "... gaps in knowledge are not seen as grounds for doubt but points for future understanding."

    A gap is not a weakness. It's an opportunity to learn more.

    Also very important: "... advances in molecular genetics have allowed biologists to read the history recorded in the DNA of animals and plants."

    Biologists can see the history of life when they compare the DNA of different species. They can determine evolutionary relationships. There is absolutely no doubt about the accuracy of evolutionary relationships as revealed by DNA analysis.

    My point is the creationists, who have no understanding of the evidence from molecular biology, and who don't even know about this evidence, and who have no desire to learn anything about it, are wrong about evolution. Biologists know the creationists are wrong. Geologists know the creationists are wrong. Geneticists know the creationists are wrong. Paleontologists know the creationists are wrong. Any grammar school student who is interested in science knows the creationists are wrong. I know the creationists are wrong. Evolution is not a hunch. It's not just an idea. Evolution is a proven beyond any doubt fact. There is so much evidence for the idea that all life shares common ancestors and the evidence is so powerful, that it's fair to say biological evolution is the strongest fact of science.

    Does evolution have religious implications? It sure does, but that's no reason to bury your head in the sand and hope reality goes away.

    The creationists, unless they want to be laughed at for the rest of their lives, need to grow up, educate themselves, and face facts. The human ape species is not a special magical creation of Mr. God. All animals, including human animals, are just branches on a vast tree of life, and all life is related.

    Study it. Understand it. Accept it. Or else be laughed at for the same reason flat-earthers are laughed at.

  • Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    viking: I agree with you 95+% of the time on religious issues (based on what you write in CP anyway . . . I have a feeling we disagree some on the issue of homosexuality but that is a conversation for another day) but I do have a minor disagreement with you regarding the teaching of "weaknesses" of evolution (or rather maybe I just have one more caviat to add).

    The weaknesses of evolution (and there are a few) are typically so far over the head of a high schooler that they aren't really appropriate to the teaching of evolution with that age group. If you give students an open forum like that, most the supposed "weaknesses" will be things parroted from either ID talking heads or people with a high degree of misinformation. For example, talking about the Cambrian Explosion, "irreducible complexity" and so on - these things have been refuted time and time again and to give the opportunity for students to present the "weaknesses" of evolution only takes away from valuable classroom time. The caviat I might add would be that talking about the "weaknesses" take no more than 5-10 minutes and that's only if evolution is being taught for a week or more (giving 5-10 minutes in a week long session is more than fair given that even that amount of time could overstate the "weaknesses" and lend credence that there might be some real ones). God bless.

  • Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    cccccccc

    I'm glad I wasn't trying to impress you then.

  • Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chris 333 sorry for the long delay in responding,
    you asked.
    So you are saying that is perfectly acceptable for a teacher to point out any weaknesses in Evolution Theory, and possible counter explanations?

    My answer to this would be a conditional yes with the following provisions.
    1. If the teacher has a thorough and solid grasp of the actual science that demonstrates the overwhelming validity of the theory of evolution and has first presented this to the students in the context of the curriculum.
    2. The Teacher has an actual evidence based understanding of the gaps in the theory of evolutions capacity to describe and explain all phenomena related to bio-diversity.
    3. If the teacher presents these gaps in the context of the scientific method where we are always exploring new evidence to refine and revise scientific theories to make them more powerful in their ability to describe, explain and predict observed phenomena.
    4. the Discusion/presentation of any counter explanations is restricted to evidence based scientific theories related to the observed phenomena and in this context the general rules of science are reinforced. Such as the requirement that for an alternate explanation or natural phenomena(or scientific theory) to be considered valid it must be based on evidence and must do a better job of accurately describing, explaining and predicting all of the known phenomena related to the topic.
    The thing is that no law is required to permit this and that's not what this law actually does.

    you post
    "Lawmakers said that the new law will help bring an end to allegations that teachers and students who share views contradicting or challenging the tenets of Darwinism in the classroom are marginalized, discriminated, or ostracized."
    I find this statement to be incredible on its face regardless of what one believes about the validity of the theory of evolution. The existence of this law far from brining "and end to allegations...." will in fact embolden those teachers who seek to substitute their judgment of how they should discharge their instructional responsibility as employees for their employers lawful directives. This is underneath a liberal agenda law granting the employees (teachers)the right to disregard the lawful directions of the employers (the schools) in the carrying out of their job functions without fear of consequence.

  • Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    JonnyBlad,

    A Bible quote and two Liars-for-Jesus websites.

    I'm not impressed.

  • Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "In other words, if there is a question about the validity of evolutionary theory, by either the student or the teacher, then it should be allowed and considered within the classroom."

    You are forgetting, or perhaps you are denying, that there are absolutely no questions about the validity of evolution. All life has evolved. That's a proven beyond any doubt fact. Biologists debate the minor details of evolution, but they all agree about the basic facts of evolution.

    The only teachers who have a question about the validity of evolution are creationists. Creationist biology teachers are not qualified to teach biology. They should be ridiculed, fired, and never allowed to teach any science again anywhere. It's not fair to students to be stuck with a moron creationist biology teacher.

    I'm still looking forward to the expensive trial the Louisiana taxpayers will have to pay for. The creationist losers will lose again. If they think they can get away with sticking their total ignorance of science into America's science classrooms, they are crazy.

    To help you understand read this: "In other words, if there is a question about the validity of the earth's orbit around the sun, by either the student or the teacher, then it should be allowed and considered within the classroom."

    If a student claims the sun circles the earth, the teacher can explain why the student is wrong.

    If a teacher claims the sun circles the earth, the students should demand that the teacher be fired immediately. The students should also laugh at the teacher and call him or her a moron.

    If a student claims evolution is false, the teacher can explain why the student is wrong.

    If a teacher claims evolution is false, the students should demand that the teacher be fired immediately. The students should also laugh at the teacher and call him or her a moron.

    I can't imagine anyone more incompetent than a creationist biology teacher. They exist, and they should be fired. Every single one of them should be thrown out the window. It's just not fair to students to have a teacher who knows nothing about the subject being taught.

  • Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:50 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Allow intelligent design into science textbooks, lecture halls, and laboratories, and the cost to the frontier of scientific discovery--the frontier that drives the economies of the future--would be incalculable. I don't want students who could make the next major breakthrough in renewable energy sources or space travel to have been taught that anything they don't understand, and that nobody yet understands, is divinely constructed and therefore beyond their intellectual capacity. The day that happens, Americans will just sit in awe of what we don't understand, while we watch the rest of the world boldly go where no mortal has gone before."

    -- Neil deGrasse Tyson

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