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Society|Wed, Jul. 02 2008 02:07 PM EDT

Federal Marriage Amendment Re-introduced in Senate

By Aaron Leichman|Christian Post Reporter

After the California Supreme Court’s infamous ruling that approved gay “marriage” two months ago, pro-family advocates talked endlessly for the need to strengthen the institution of marriage at the national level with a federal amendment.

Last week, pro-family groups finally saw their prayers answered when Republican Sen. Roger Wicker of Mississippi re-introduced the Federal Marriage Act in the Senate for the first time since it stalled in the House nearly two years ago.

The measure, which reads, “Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman,” would effectively outlaw gay “marriage” if it reaches a two-thirds majority approval in Congress.

Wicker said that the bill was urgent and necessary given that the recent California court ruling could potentially force gay “marriage” on states.

“Invariably, couples from that state will now move to states like Mississippi, or the other states that have prohibitions on same-sex marriage,” he said in a statement. “And they will ask that those 'marriages' be recognized.”

Pro-family groups said they were upbeat about the bill, while emphasizing its importance in protecting families.

“Children are best served by having both a mother and a father,” said Tom McClusky, vice president for government affairs at the Family Research Council, in a statement.

“To deprive a child of [that] is something that no government should be trying to push,” he added.

The amendment, which was first introduced to Congress in 2002, stalled in the legislature after it failed to receive a two-thirds majority vote.

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  • Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    This article is pretty funny. Especially the quote by Tom McClusky. First of all, how are heterosexual marriages going to be affected because of a law that allows gay marriages to be valid? Are heterosexual couples all of a sudden going to think, "hey we can be gay, let's be gay, YAY." That is just dumb. Secondly, how is a child best served by a father and a mother? Unless of course, Tom is implying that a father contributes differently to the growth of a child than a mother. Which, again, does not make sense because the only main difference between a man and a woman is their genitalia. So, unless there's something special a child will learn from his father's balls or his mother's ovaries, I don't see how a child raised under a same sex family will be different from a child raised "the normal way."

  • Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    The very frequent use of the term, "gay", as a synonym for homosexuality, shows how strongly this site has bought into the homosexual agenda.

  • Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Amen, Ivan,
    God didn't promise that He would remove all obstacles and temptations from our lives. Even Jesus was tempted, just as we are. But God did say that He would give us the power to resist and remain faithful and true.

    That is why I make the comment that those who call themselves Christians, and yet continue in their homosexual lifestyles, are lazy christians. They are too lazy to resist.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mathetes - why thank you! (I have DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, the original and some of the redone originals which have new special effects on the screen and space shots. Yep, I have a Dish. Why? Because I'm so far out in the country I can't really get most of the local channels!)

    Also, it's corn on the cob season. For thos who grill the corn...pull the shucks back, remove the silk, reshuck and soak in water for at least 30 min to an hour. When you grill in wet shucks the corn steams in the husk. You can also put butter (try flavored with garlic or herbs).

    I'll try to find one for rhubarb pie for lina if she wants. :-)

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Daniel,

    Your steaks sound great! If you were closer, I'd accept your invitation and bring the whole DS9 series and a wonderful strawberry dessert.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wb and lina;

    I'm sorry for the name calling. YOu know, it just not everyday we get to pick on a prozac ridden Satanist. I'll try to refrain.

    Lina - I let wb fling you around a bit, but I have my saber drawn you little pesky demon, you. One false move and ...

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "You know, most of the posts on this site are really disturbing. I think Jesus would view them as, not coming from Christians, but from a bunch of angry, fearful, disaffected heterosexual supremacists.

    Keep spewing poison and quoting the Bible if you like. I may encounter this nonsense for a few moments during my day, but I'd hate to think what it must be like to live in your heads 24/7."

    Wow! What a stab. Ouch...I'm melting, I'm melting!!!!
    There are some Christians that post here that need to be shepherded, but for the most part we try to play fair.

    No as th what's in my head 24/7...I love to play with my children, voluteer in the community, help our around the church and work with those in need. I spend a fair amount of time learning more about 34 CFR 100's and the laws protected by it such as IDEA to help special needs children. I like to compose, garden, play with the children and I work on cars for friends. There is even time when I am thinking about much of nothing watching StarTrek, Doctor Who and Gardening by the Yard. There is even time to consider the types of sustainable energy and develop new recipies and preparing old ones (imported blue cheese stuffed ribeye anyone?).

    Why, my mind is full of things 24/7 which have nothing to do with the fun we Christians have at this site entertaining the questions of folks like you! :-)

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hi Lina. Thanks I appreciate it. I do wish people would be civil. Its ok to disagree and discuss differences. I just wish people could do it civilly.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    lina,
    Pick up the book "Evidence That Demands A Verdict 2" by Josh McDowell.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It's the right thing to do.

  • lina »
    Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    WB - you're a good guy. I'm only treating Rolln4him as he treats others. deal? But seriously, do me a favor. Buy the following book: God is not Great by Christopher Hitchens if anything because it so interesting. Pick it apart - determine what is wrong. And let's chat about it.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    rolln4him

    Please stop calling people names.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:40 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    chicago-

    You haven't seen noth'n yet; you Christian bashing heretic. When you cast out demons, it's never pretty. Now scram!

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:34 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    You know, most of the posts on this site are really disturbing. I think Jesus would view them as, not coming from Christians, but from a bunch of angry, fearful, disaffected heterosexual supremacists.

    Keep spewing poison and quoting the Bible if you like. I may encounter this nonsense for a few moments during my day, but I'd hate to think what it must be like to live in your heads 24/7.

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    feet,
    I say to you toread 1cor 6:9-10 weee it clearly states that homosexuals will not inheret the kingdom of God unless 1 cor 6:11 they trust In Christ repent, and change. It is in the Bible homosexuality is a sin, Sodom and Gomorrah were punished for this. Second the Bible clearly state marriage is of man and women, and sex is to be only between married people.

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:10 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    Extract from: Part Two: “Discourse on Gay and Lesbian Marriages”, by Ivan Erickson, author of the spiritual novel, “Song of the Storm Winds”, available via direct links to amazon.com on my website, http://www.ivan-erickson.com - Other discourses are also available for viewing and comments on my site.
    Please be aware that I love all people of all faiths and ethnicities whom God loves, and it is for this reason that I toil continuously to bring His Truth and Light to all who have ears to hear with and eyes to see with:
    “The “approval” of the sinfulness of man is also being displayed in a brazen manner in other areas of modern life. Teachers in the classrooms and other misdirected poor souls, such as some TV celebrities and hosts, go out of their way to teach and demonstrate to children and others that homosexuality is “acceptable” to God and man, or worse, that it is not sinful. Some churches and their hierarchy and clergy preach in front of God and man that homosexuality is permissible – that it is not a sin. Judges and other lawmakers are enacting laws that allow gays or lesbians to live together as a man and wife do; to have the same tax advantages and other benefits as married couples do; to allow them to “wed” one another; and to allow them to adopt children, or to act as surrogate mothers, in some cases. Do you not yet realize, all of you who are sinning in these manners, that you must not enact laws, condone, or be a party to sinfulness? Man must not attempt to supersede or countermand the Commandments, mandates, laws, decrees or jurisdiction of God, you must understand! Should you attempt to bless in “marriage” that which God abhors? And you are doing this by the acts that many of you are committing, that allow either yourselves or others to sin – whether it be in matters of homosexuality, pedophilia, child abuse, lowering the age that children are “legally” allowed to commit sexual acts out of wedlock, “legalizing” divorce, as well as in other areas of modern life in which man is brazenly telling God that our laws take precedence over His! The fate of those of you who commit these acts, or allow or enact laws whereby others may commit these acts, will be more lamentable than the hapless ant that sits atop its anthill with tiny “fist” upraised, in defiance to the approaching bulldozer”!

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    A rebuke is made after a judgment is made that a sin has occurred.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:41 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 6

    "so.. so sad. there are innocent people who are suffering on the streets of this country because they just lost their home, which they were told they were qualified for."

    Yep...it started under Clinton. Then it carried on under the 'growing economy' credited by the Dems to Clinton. We reap what we sow. People are getting kicked out of their homes because someone lied to them and/or they are living beyond their means.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:32 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

    so.. so sad. there are innocent people who are suffering on the streets of this country because they just lost their home, which they were told they were qualified for. there are people addicted to drugs and alcohol who have absolutely no one. there is an unjust war that is killing not only people, but our morale. women are being raped, and children are starving. and yet conservatives want to dance on this issue. shame on you people. stop attacking others' happiness and go find yourselves.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:09 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    the reason for the display of definitions was to show the distinct difference between judging and rebuking.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:23 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    Bush already tried this scam in 2004. I guess evangelicals want to continue to be bought and sold.

    http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/07/04/craig-and-vitter-defend-marriage/

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:19 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    If it was something Christ said to do, or something Paul said to do, then I will certainly do it. And guess what, Christ said to rebuke, and Paul said to expel the wicked from among you.

    Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

    1 Corinthians 5:9-13
    9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you.

    By not only suggesting homosexuality is not a sin, but encouraging others to do it, you are putting yourself in the position of God, denying the truth of God (Romans 1:18-32).

    You should repent and turn to God and live like it (Acts 25:20).

    But if you DO repent (change), you need to not continue to live a life of sin. Otherwise, you are condemned, because you do not know God.
    1 John 3:4-6
    4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

    And so if you continue to deny Christ, you condemn yourself (John 3:16-18).

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:30 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    "rebuke............to blame or scold in a sharp way ; to reprimand.

    judge.........................to pass judgement

    .judgement...........decision, order, decree,sentence given by a judge,criticism, censure, making a decision as to value

    censure................a judgement or resolution condemning a person for misconduct.

    condemning...............to declare unfit, to inflict a penalty upon.
    ----------------------

    Big Foot (sorry, I just couldn't resist...)-

    You don't seem to be reading the posts of the other people. We are not going to agree with patchwork interpretations of the Bible. The Bible is clear. The judgements have already been made. The gospel has been stated. Repent and sin no more. The Bible lists and defines sin. Don't mistake lust for love.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    feet wrote:
    "(4)the bonding of homosexuals is equally as self affirming as heterosexual bonding. again you will recognize them by their fruit."

    Ae you speaking of the self-affirming found through disregarding the word of God? The self-affirming found through diseases transmitted through immoral sexual practices?

    Any affirming should come from GOD, not from yourself. This is another reason why Romans 1 applies to homosexuality - it is about self over God.

    "(5) the bonding of heterosexuals and the bonding homosexuals in essence produces the fruit of the spirit equally. again you will recognize them by their fruit"

    LOL! The bonding of a man and woman in holy matrimony is nothing like the sin of unrepentant homosexuals. The homosexual will suffer the second death, if he/she does not repent.

    Revelation 21:8
    " But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

    "(6) no where does scripture say that homosexuality is a sin. not from lev where not all prohibitions are of themselves sins, to the gang rape of gen, to the shamebased lust of romans.......shame engendering self hatred and self loathing, lust being the antithesis of bonding, the only commitment of lust is to all things that fill the wanton hole of lust, to the "malebed" of 1tim and 1cor which also is abhorent behavior that has nothing to do with human bonding. the uniting of 2 souls in a one flesh relationship, motivated by mutual love, respect, trust, devotion, and attraction for a committed shared life together."

    You are wrong. Jesus said to not be sexually immoral (Matthew 15:18-20; Mark 7:20-23, Revelation 21:5-8). The definition of sexual immorality is based upon the Scriptures at that time – the Old Testament (Lev 18:22; Lev 20:13), where it does not speak of lust, it speaks of men lying with men as with a woman. That is not describing rape, nor lust. It describes a sex act between a man and a man as being destestable.

    Then Romans 1 describes the WRATH OF GOD coming on those who suppress the truth with their wickedness.
    “24 Therefore God gave them over in the SINFUL DESIRES of their hearts to SEXUAL IMPURITY FOR THE DEGRADING OF THEIR BODIES with one another.” As you look at the rest of the passage, God called it shameful desire, unnatural, indecent, perversion, depraved.

    It is not just lust, nor just the act, but simple desire for someone of the same gender is a sin.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Feet wrote:
    "i will tell you besides myself... everyone that supports homosexuality, that i personally know, does not believe that homosexuality is a sin."

    then they are mistaken and heretics.

    "(1)because it does not come against loving ones neighbor as oneself the summation of all the law, of these 2 commandments no commandments are greater."

    Living in sin shows a lack of love for God, the most important summary of the Law and the prophets - Christ described it as the most important Law. And sin that involves another is the opposite of showing love for that person. Love will not lead us to do or act or teach something that is contrary to what God has said.

    "(2) homosexuals bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals you will recognize them by their fruit."

    The fruit of not being able to have children together? The fruit of active sin? The fruit of diseases found among the sexually immoral?

    No, the homosexual bond is a distortion of the bond that occurs between a husband and wife. To say they are the same is to distort Scripture written by Paul, which is exactly what Peter said.

    2 Peter 3:15-17
    15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by )the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

    "(3) homosexuals have never been found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals."

    um... you mean all the ones who have died of diseases of the immoral are not found wanting? Or do you mean the homosexual men who can not give birth? Or do you mean the women who require either artificial or heterosexual insemination to get pregnant?

    "they are not less a father, attorney, friend, administrator, neighbor, counselor, brother, teacher, etc"

    They are certainly not holy or saved - at least according to the word of God. They are damned to the second death according to Revelation 21:5-8.

    "the same cannot be said of those given over to the sin nature gal 5 compared that are not."

    What about those given over to the sin nature of homosexuality as described in Romans 1?

    But those who have repented of their sin and trust Christ and obey (the evidence of faith), have eternal life.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    rebuke............to blame or scold in a sharp way ; to reprimand.



    judge.........................to pass judgement

    .judgement...........decision, order, decree,sentence given by a judge,criticism, censure, making a decision as to value

    censure................a judgement or resolution condemning a person for misconduct.


    condemning...............to declare unfit, to inflict a penalty upon.


    Luke 6:37
    [ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven


    feet,
    You said "i didnt know you've had so mmuch fellowship with gay believers." I never have, because there is no such thing. If they were believers then they would know they were sinnning, if they are gay then they don't believe the Word of God. It's acutally quites simple.
    Ther may be gay religious people, but they are not believers or Christians. I hope that answers your question.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    the plank vs speck has to do with how close something is to you. The closer it is, the bigger it appears. The farther it is from you, the smaller it appears. The idea is to take care of your problem in a given area before speaking with someone else about their problem in that area.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    What part of what Christ said in Luke 17:3 do you not get?
    Jesus said to call sinners on their behavior:
    Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

    So, I rebuke you. Now, its your turn to repent!

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:15 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Feet,
    People who try to lead believers astray into acting the way they want, or the way the world says is good are what the apostle John warned against in 1 John 3:4-10
    4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

    Notice what it calls people who keep living a life of sin - they are not called children of God, but children of the devil.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    without any spirit context...........we are led by and serve of the spirit, that response ignores jesus"s declaration we will know them by their fruit(fruit of the spirit), the commandment of loving ones neighbor as oneself, and paul's statement in gal5 that he things of the sin nature are obvious, that by their very nature are self evident on how they come against the fruit of the spirit.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    my understanding is that the metaphor "plank" is not describing one's concern about anothers sin. but instead is about the essence of sin. which is so huge in the eye of the one because he is judging, that in comparison makes the sin of the other almost nothing.

    what is there not to understand about"DO NOT JUDGE"

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:45 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    as I've written before,
    Matthew 15:18-20
    18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ “

    Mark 7:20-23
    20 He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him ‘unclean.’ 21 For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’ “

    Now, sexual immorality would refer to what God had defined as wrong already by the time of when Christ said this – this would come from the Old Testament. As Christians today, we use both the Old and New Testaments to see Who God is, what God has done, how God feels about issues in life, and what He expects of and for us.

    The word translated as sexual immorality is ‘Porneia’. This word means
    1. illicit sexual intercourse
    A. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
    B. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
    C. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11

    In particular, when looking at what God said about sexual immorality, we are taking into account the following (I have added the verses from the Gospels, as well as those from the New Testament Epistles, the latter of course were written after Christ spoke, but are helpful for Christians today):
    Sexual immorality in general: Matthew 15:18-20; Mark 7:20-23; 1 Thes 4:3-8; Rev 21:5-8
    Wearing clothing of the opposite gender: Deuteronomy 22:5
    sex with animals: Ex 22:19; Lev18:23, 20:15-16
    sex with people of the same gender: Lev 18:22; Lev 20:13; Rom 1:26-27; 1 Cor 6:9-10
    adultery: Gen 20:1-7; Deut 5:18; Heb 13:4
    fornication: 1 Corinthians 6:18; 1 Corinthians 7:2
    incest: Lev 18:6-15; 20; Deut 27:20-23; 1 Cor 5:1-13

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:33 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    The problem is not just rape. Romans 1 says even the desire of a man for a man or a woman for a woman is sin. The act of sex between two people of the same gender is also sin.

    The term translated in Romans 1 as 'lust' is epiqumia in Greek. It means desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust.

    It is even the mere desire for same gender sex that is wrong in God's eyes.

    It does not matter how you feel about it. It does not matter how you justify it. God said if you do not change and turn to God, then you are not saved. If you claim you have repented and turned to God, then you need to live like it.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:12 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    i will tell you besides myself...............everyone that supports homosexuality, that i personally know, does not believe that homosexuality is a sin.


    (1)because it does not come against loving ones neighbor as oneself

    the summation of all the law, of these 2commandments no commandments are greater.

    (2) homosexuals bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals

    you will recognize them by their fruit.

    (3) homosexuals have never been found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals.

    they are not less a father, attorney, friend, administrator, neighbor, counselor, brother, teacher, etc
    the same cannot be said of those given over to the sin nature gal 5 compared that are not.

    (4)the bonding of homosexuals is equally as self affirming as heterosexual bonding.

    again you will recognize them by their fruit.


    (5) the bonding of heterosexuals and the bonding homosexuals in essence produces the fruit of the spirit equally.

    again you will recognize them by their fruit

    (6) no where does scripture say that homosexuality is a sin.

    not from lev where not all prohibitions are of themselves sins, to the gang rape of gen, to the shamebased lust of romans.......shame engendering self hatred and self loathing, lust being the antithesis of bonding, the only commitment of lust is to all things that fill the wanton hole of lust, to the "malebed" of 1tim and 1cor which also is abhorent behavior that has nothing to do with human bonding. the uniting of 2 souls in a one flesh relationship, motivated by mutual love, respect, trust, devotion, and attraction for a committed shared life together.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    feet, the question is not whether you are aware of all sin in your life. The question is, once oyu know that something you do is a sin, do you repent?

    Now, there is no doubt that homosexuality is a sin. So do you repent and obey God?

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet, you wrote "surely you understand the huge difference between a plank and a speck. and that it is ones judgement that is responsible for the difference of size. it is your judgement that creates the plank in comparison to the speck in ones brothers eye."

    The difference is that one is closer to you than the other. Ie. the thing you are doing that you are correcting someone else for is a bigger deal to you than what the other person is doing. You should take care of what is closest to you (the plank) before you handle what is farther away (the speck in your brother's eye).

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:01 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    You said "i didnt know you've had so mmuch fellowship with gay believers." I never have, because there is no such thing. If they were believers then they would know they were sinnning, if they are gay then they don't believe the Word of God. It's acutally quites simple.
    Ther may be gay religious people, but they are not believers or Christians. I hope that answers your question.

    i would amend your concept of not continuing to sin for those whom the holy spirit convicts their hearts of sin and then gives thru grace the power to turn from sin.

    otherwise according to your understanding, in the last 2000 years there were no believers, because of the presence of perpetual sin...........from 2000 years of antisemitism, that culminated in the halocaust, in spite of romans 10 and 11, the genicidal slaughters over differences of belief, such as french protestants and catholics slaughtering each other over a creed, 1800 years of ethnic slavery supported by the church, 1500 years of the practice of indulgences, 1800 years of the slaughter of the saints by the church,100 years of the unfettered racism(specifically in the south, blacks could not eyeball whites, and any white person regsrdless of age could tell a black person to something and if they didnt comply there was a knock on their door that night to be dealt with as severly as to be not be seen again.

    at the turn of the century if you lived in the south, in order to be a successful businessman or to be politically viable, membership was required in the klu klux klan.
    and this us just the tip of the iceberg of all the travesties throughout history, all done by believers.

    in my opinion it is the fool who credits himself with totally being aware of all the sin in his life, tothe point that all that has to be done is to show him and he responds with automatic repentance.

    surely you are aware that the majority of sacrifices of leviticus are for unknown sin.

    i have seen nothing that would indicate that believers today were any more aware their sin than the isrealites of the past.

    wasnt that the reason for the cross. that man could not follow the law in regards to sin, could not not be depended on to repent..........turn from his sin. isnt grace about inspite of sin that we are unable to control, we rely on what christ did on the cross, not the believer trusting in what he can do regarding sin.

    if paul in romans 7 admits of this being in his own life...............are believers to credit themselves with more?

    that concepts of repeated sinning, and repentance required for salvation have nothing to do with the gospel.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Feet, you wrote "anyone who withholds fellowship over an issue of sin, is judging and condemning."

    Who ever does NOT rebuke a sinner is not being obedient to God.

    Jesus said to call sinners on their behavior:
    Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

    Paul said to expel the wicked from among you.
    1 Cor 5:12-13
    12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you.

    Even the Apostle John, who focused so much on love, said to not have fellowship with people who denied Christ.
    2 John 1:9-11
    9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    feetxxx-

    Now that we understand that you would even go so far as to say pedophilia is OK according to you post located at : http://christianpost.com/article/20080627/mccain-endorses-calif-initiative-to-protect-marriage.htm

    Then we can assume that your basic belief with this "love" commandment is that as long as those involved "love thy neighbor" than it's OK? Right? So you neighbor's wife is not off limits, the little girl next door is not off limits to having sex with as long as the two of you are in love...?

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:41 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    that returns us to three commandments of love...........those are his commands. if faithfulness without love is nothing, then obedience without the same would be no different.

    remember "there is no commandment greater than these."

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl, if I am the passenger in a car and the driver is traveling at a high rate of speed and is approaching a dangerous curve in the road and if he does not slow down there is a high probability we will crash. Would I be judging/condemning him as a driver or person if I warned him about the dangerous curve and encouraged him to slow down?

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You are still missing the context.

    Let us read Romans 2 in context (we have already seen where Romans 1 condemns putting your thoughts ahead of God's, as well as homosexual desire and sex). Rom 2:1-10
    1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

    God will condemn those pass judgement on something and do the thing they pass judgement upon. That is called hypocrisy. God said to not do it, but even more, He said to not do bad things. God loves you. He wants you to repent. That's the whole point of the passage - do not do bad things. Its not the calling of someone on their sin that is the problem. It is not taking care of the problem in your own life before you do so. You have to repent.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl,
    You said, "anyone who withholds fellowship over an issue of sin, is judging and condemning." Did Paul not do it and command the church at Corinth to do it?
    1 Cor 5:3-5, 11
    3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one.

    You also said:
    "if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another." that is a proactive statement and is independent of whatever sin is being judged about the person.

    If a person is engaging in a sin continually, then he is not walking in fellowship with God or with His people.
    I Jn 1:5-6
    5 And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and {yet} walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

    I Jn 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    I Jn 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    surely you understand the huge difference between a plank and a speck.

    and that it is ones judgement that is responsible for the difference of size.

    it is your judgement that creates the plank in comparison to the speck in ones brothers eye.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:01 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    anyone who withholds fellowship over an issue of sin, is judging and condemning.

    "if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another."

    that is a proactive statement and is independent of whatever sin is being judged about the person.

    in fact it would seem that those in sin would need fellowship in the spirit of christ more, a fellowship of the light to contrast their walk in darkness, a fellowship in christ touches the christ within, that thru which they are made.

    1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance

    are we to offer any less?

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Luke 12:49-59
    49 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law." 54He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. 55 And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56 Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time? 57 "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

    Christ said to discern what is right - to JUDGE what is right. In context, He was saying HE was sent to bring fire to earth, and his listeners had to decide for themselves. They had to JUDGE whether He was telling the truth or not.

    I noticed you conveniently ignored what else CHRIST said,
    Jesus said to call sinners on their behavior and forgive them if they change:
    1 Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2 It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

    Paul said to not be a hypocrite:
    Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

    But we are to discern what is right and wrong and avoid wrong.

    Romans 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
    1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

    You are also ignored what I said about looking at the right/wrong on people's action versus judging the individuals. The latter is God's job. The former is a Christian;s. To say it is not is to show ignorance of scripture and a bias towards sinful behavior.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Again, feet, you are confused and distorting and ignoring scripture.

    Mat 7:1-5
    1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

    Now lets look at the other verse in context that you quoted out of context.
    Luke 6:37-42
    37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher. 41 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

    Christ said point blank, take the plank out of your eye to deal with the speck in your brother's eye. The idea is deal with a problem in your life before dealing with it in another's life. DO NOT BE A HYPOCRITE. That's the idea.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl--I agree in principle. Here's the problem. The Bible says to speak the truth in love. When people stop speaking the truth because they don't want to 'judge' then they disobey the gospel.

    I do not judge people. I think my posts speak for themselves on that. I DO speak what I find to be Biblical truth that applies to a given situation. Jesus accepted the sinner. In fact, He hung out with them. Still, He spoke against the sin.

    It's a 'don't throw the baby out with the bath water' thing.... It's just as wrong to not speak the truth in love as it is to judge. So, how do we know the difference? Simple, the Bible also says things like except for the grace of God it would be you who was being 'corrected'. People who are wrong are no better or worse than I am. I have found each of us is just as messed up as the next guy without the rock of Jesus to anchor ourselves on.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    feetxxxl, although I don't believe that every person who is caught up in the sexual practices of homosexuality is automatically destined for hell that does not change the fact that it is still a sin and a sinful lifestyle. And as a result keeps those who continue in it from having a relationship with God that is both growing and intimate and this is true of any believer who is continuing to willfully live in sin and/or a sinful lifestyle.

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