From his frequent God talk on the campaign trail to his latest proposal to expand aid to faith-based programs, Democrat Barack Obama is serious and aggressive when it comes to courting faith voters.
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(Photo: AP Images /Jae C. Hong)Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., speaks during a news conference after he toured the East Community Ministry in Zanesville, Ohio, Tuesday, July 1, 2008.
The Illinois senator not only challenges the long-held tacit alliance between evangelicals and the Republican Party, but is doing so with some success, according to a well-known emergent leader.
"I think there's a very, very sizable percentage – I think between a third and half – of evangelicals, especially younger [evangelicals], who are very open to somebody with a new vision," said Brian McLaren, a former pastor and now informal adviser to the Obama campaign, according to CNN.
McLaren believes a significant number of evangelical voters are breaking away from the Republican Party to rally behind Obama, who speaks about a faith that cares for the poor and seeks to protect the environment.
"We've watched the evangelical community be led – be misled – by the Republican Party to support things they really shouldn't have supported," McLaren said, giving as example the group’s “blind support” for the Iraq war, which he claims was “launched on either mistaken or false pretenses.”
The evangelicals who are attracted to Obama are part of a new generation of faith voters where the issues of Darfur, global warming, poverty, and torture are considered as important, or at least nearly as important, as the traditional key issues of abortion and gay “marriage” when choosing the next president.
As a reminder of his commitment to faith-driven solutions to social problems, Obama announced Tuesday his plans to expand President Bush’s faith-based programs if elected to the White House.
Obama, a former community organizer in Chicago, said his program would better reach smaller congregations, be a “critical part of my administration,” and proposed a $500 million per year program to provide summer learning to 1 million poor children.
White House spokesman Tony Fratto said the faith-based initiative is important to Bush, according to Bloomberg news, and if Obama supports the idea, “that’s something we’d all be very happy about.”
While Obama has been outspoken about his faith and its influence on his political decisions, Republican rival John McCain has been shy about sharing his own Christian faith.
An advisor to the McCain campaign had earlier explained that the Arizona senator does not want to use his personal faith for political gain, according to Christian Broadcasting Network.
Nonetheless, McCain has reached out to influential Christian leaders, including the Greek Orthodox head in America Archbishop Demetrios, and on Sunday, father-son evangelists Billy Graham and Franklin Graham.
Although McCain’s campaign lacks the aggressive outreach of the Obama camp, polls show that he still leads by a wide margin among evangelical voters.
A CNN poll conducted by Opinion Research Corporation in June found nearly two-thirds of white evangelical voters surveyed (64 percent) supported McCain, and 30 percent backed Obama.
Notable, however, is McCain’s significantly lower support from evangelicals as compared to Bush’s 78 percent in the 2004 election, according to exit polls.
"The evangelical community seems to be sitting on the fence to a particular degree," observed Jacques Berlinerblau, a professor at Georgetown University, according to CNN.
And that could open the door for Obama, he said.
"If Sen. Obama can get between 30 and 33 percent [of the evangelical vote] in those crucial swing states, he's absolutely golden," Berlinerblau said.
Obama is focusing his campaign this week on American values, including religious faith and patriotism, leading up to Friday’s Fourth of July holiday.
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This is funny.
James Reynolds sez: " . . . he wants to force these religious groups to allow anyone to join thier organization regardless of faith or ideology. So, essentially these organizations will become political instead of religious, wont ask for essential funds, or the whole program will bephased out because the churches will not back down.
So, uh, Mr. Reynolds, are you suggesting that patriotic Christian conservative evangelical churches do not pick and choose their members today? What if one of the "flock" wanted to smoke test religious philosophy at a synagogue or, God forbid, at a mosque? Would that patriotic Christian conservative evangelical church expel that member out of an unfllinching sense of Christian love?
As for abortion, however reprehensible the procedure might be, don't any of you have lives that are not focused on that subject area day and night? Can you be so obsessed with this one focal point that you are not aware of the hunger, lack of health care, housing, employment, and money that besets this nation today?
Or of the horrid tragedy that is Iraq manufactured by The Great Satan Bush and his fellow travelers? Are any of you truly Christians or is "Christian" a nice social grouping that gives you a sense of belonging?
"Your anger is so bad, that you cannot possibly come from the Lord."
I'm just trying to figure out how Jesus could have said "you sons of hell!" in a nice tone of voice. Just how can you drive someone from the temple with a whip and be nice about it? Jesus got mad and rightfully so.
"Be angry, but do not sin; do not let the sun go down or your wrath, nor give place to the Devil." Eph 4:26-27
Please note the Bible actually SAYS to be angry. So, exactly what is the basis of your statement? Codependency says we don't want to be angry because anger is bad. Guess what...not being angry when it is appropriate is bad.
Anyone else think it's weird that the title of this article is "Obama Prying Loose Evangelicals from Republicans"....and there's another article on here titled "Obama Backed by Less Religious Americans".
That just doesn't make sense.
lina,
I wasn't sure if you noticed that you were on a Christian message board. What were expecting? Recipes for rhubarb pie?
lina,
Can you think or talk without quoting science?
IGH - can you think or talk without quoting the Bible?
lina and dddd becareful on future posts or i will ask the owners of this site to ban you permanently. Dont pull this site into the gutters. You and many others who come here really need to understand that God is good man is wicked and we need Jesus to Save us from the coming Judgement.
Hebrews 10:29 "What, then, of those who despise the Son of God? who treat as a cheap thing the blood of God's covenant which purified them from sin? who insult the Spirit of grace? Just think how much worse is the punishment they will deserve!
Heb 10:30 For we know who said, "I will take revenge, I will repay"; and who also said, "The Lord will judge his people."
Heb 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!"
I don't vote parties. I vote my conscience.
lina,
No, not really.
Jesus did away with capital punishment.
It's not a matter of the death penalty being a deterent, it's a matter of principle. Both the death penalty and abortion are wrong because people are taking matters of life and death in their own hands. It's important with the death penality because our behavior as Christians have to be above the behavior of murderers.
Do any of you think that you are to use Christ as a bludgeon to hit people over the head with? Do you think God wants people to come to him out of fear or love? Your anger is so bad, that you cannot possibly come from the Lord. When you label people and bully, you committ sin. You can condemn the actions, but not the person. Can I get a role call from everyone on how much time you all spend reading your Bibles everyday?
"Why are some people who are on death row, awaiting execution, put on suicide watch? They're gonna die anyway?"
Life is full of little ironies now isn't it? The legal system says they have the right to a final appeal to the governor. They cannot do this if they are dead. We wouldn't want to violate their rights even if they waive them.
"And you can't get much more severe in your punishment, unless you get into torture."
Yep. It's a matter of simply removing the problem if you can's solve it. I was in court today for a freinds case. (The judge explained to his ex's lawyer that the only thing she proved (in 5 hours of court time) was that the child support needed to go up and it did by $10 per week. It cost his ex $13,000 in legal fees closing a 2 year battle.)
I determined we could end the threat of global warming if they'd end stupid litigation thus removing 90% of the paper usage in the legal world and saving all those trees....
In short, there will always be people who will do wrong. In the case of murder, sometimes the only real solution is to remove them from society permenantly via the death penalty. It would be so much more simple if people simply didn't murder!
Obama is only "duping" the weak minded. Which the Bible said would happen. So, I'm not worried.
stan,
Please take scripture in context.
Romans 2:12-16
"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. "
Verse 12 talks about those who sinned in the law being judged by the law. Everyone sins. And those who are "such good people" sin too. And when they sin, where is the forgiveness of sin if they do not accept Christ and His sacrifice? There is none, therefore their sin remains and they are judged.
"There is nothing in the Bible that states we have to preach the good news to Muslims."
uh... wrong.
John 3:16-18
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does NOT BELIEVE STANDS CONDEMNED already BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF GOD'S ONE AND ONLY SON.
Matthew 28:18-20
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Acts 4:10-12
10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is " 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.' 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given to men BY WHICH WE MUST BE SAVED."
Romans 10:11-15
11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentileâ€â€the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
We have to preach the good news to everyone, otherwise, how can they be saved?
Why are some people who are on death row, awaiting execution, put on suicide watch? They're gonna die anyway. Is it that they just don't want the inmate to take all the fun out of it?
the question is not if the murdering stop, but to what extent did it deter the activity.for example 2,000 first degree murders nationally w/ death penalty or 5000 w/o death penalty. Numbers are made up. then is it working, yes it is if the number are roughly the same then it isn't. does any body know the real data?
Stanjz
you did not answer my question
Daniel,
I agree to a certain extent with you assessment about severity of punishiment being a determent. But, as we see, that first degree murder is punishable by death. But I don't see people stop murdering. And you can't get much more severe in your punishment, unless you get into torture.
Jeez, I don't even know where to start with you guys. Let me ask this. Do any of you think for yourselves? Steiner said "How many muslims has Obama preached the Gospel to? How many? During the last 23 years of his Christian life has he ever shared the gospel with a Muslim?" There is nothing in the Bible that states we have to preach the good news to Muslims. Peter preached it to his fellow Jews and Paul preached it to the Gentiles. Do you think God is unjust to damn a child who was taught Islam, but never had someone teach him Christianity? Romans 2:13 says not the hearers of the law are justified, but the doers of the law...when those not having the law[ every none Christian, including Muslims] do instinctively the things of the law, these not having the law, become a law unto themselves." This country is filled with people who say Christ, but do something else altogether. I obey the law because the Lord tells me too. The Constitution is important, but it is not a Holy document. It wasn't so great when women wern't allowed to vote or when their were no term limits for presidents allowing for a possible dictatorship.
"Remember are constitution and original laws were based on judea-christianity thus staunchly made availiable mercy."
We don't go around cutting off fingers of shoplifters or publicly beating those who spray paint trash on buildings. We don't take people out in the streets and stone them (which still goes on in some parts of the world) and we give people trials. Our system isn't perfect but it's way better than much of the world.
Stanjz
If you won't say anything to contradict God's word to win an election, why would you pull a lever for someone who contradicts Christ word.
revenge humanly speaking is an act done out of anger, our judicial sytem is set up so that peers uninvolved can make rational decisions. God's revenge is an act of holy justification. plus mercy is built into our system in two ways. The first says you must find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, at sentencing extenuating circumstances are heard along with character witnessing. This is to show mercy on the truly repentet and typically good people who faltered. After court two more acts of mercy are availiable called reduced time for good behaviour and parole. Remember are constitution and original laws were based on judea-christianity thus staunchly made availiable mercy.
"A person who rapes and kills three children doesn't get justice just by killing, so why do it?"
Simple, as much as I don't like it crime in countries where crime is punished...really punished...is far lower than here in the USA. Unfortunately, deturant is the key. This is why there is a hell.
It's a really simple concept. People who do not respect the law should be made to fear breaking it.
Also, would you call someone who broke into your house a burgler or a illegal visitor? Would you want the police to remove the person or should they be allowed to move in with you at your expense? This country belongs to those who are citizens. We have the right to determine who is a guest and who is a burgler.
And while we are on the topic of Obamas Christianity.
How many muslims has Obama preached the Gospel to? How many? During the last 23 years of his Christian life has he ever shared the gospel with a Muslim?
Christ commands us to go out and preach the Good News...
Who can say that Obama has done this to his family, or to anyone else...
Yes, Obama is making inroads in the Christian community.
He states that he is a Christian.
Though this may be true, he needs to explain why...
Why he chose Jesus and not mohammed, when the rest of his family in Kenya are muslims.
Why he chooses to pray: God our Father and not allah.....
And if Obama believes that Christ is not the only way to heaven...then he must explain why I should believe he is a Christian, and not just a religious opportunist.
As Christians we dont need more money, or more programs to run, or be in charge of. More money is not going to influence my vote. The west is in trouble today because it has not been willing to limit the influence of money,and Christians have tended to depend on it far more than they should...
Honesty and determination to see through that the Truth reigns is what should concern Christians.
Until Mr. Obama explains the Above, I will not consider voting for him.
If you believe anything from me, believe this; there is nothing in this world more important to me than my relationship with Jesus Christ. I won't say something to contradict Christ in order to win an election.
Daniel Paul. No problem with enforcing immigration laws, but to say that many elements don't demonize them, is to turn a blind eye. Referring to them as illegal visitors or someting of that nature would be more humane than to refer to them as " illegal aliens." Most of them are coming here because they cannot afford to live or feed their families in Mexico. You didn't address the lack of mercy or lack of consideration for repentance with the criminal justice system, you merely stated " sin needs punishment" which is a given. But to me, society needs to set a better example to the public, than the example our criminals set. Also, justice is incomplete. A person who rapes and kills three children doesn't get justice just by killing, so why do it? Put him away for the rest of his life." Revenge is mine sayeth the Lord, I will pay them back." Romans 12:19
let's not forget false prophets will utilize noble deeds in order to further their teachings. no amount of several good deeds allows anyone to perverse the Truth's of God
Yes, Obama has done quite a bit of good things. That won't make him a good President. He wants Christian organizations to no longer have the right to hire only Christians. He said so when he clarified his statement about wanting to carry on the Bush 'faith based' programs.
"Love- Republican leadership demonizes those different than them including immigrants, homosexuals and Muslims (not just radicals)"
Nice try. There is a different beween immigrants and those who cheat their way into the USA by breaking the rules ALL countries have for their boarders.
Muslims? Nice try again. I haven't heard or seen any 'anti-muslim' actions or even talk from the Republican leadership.
"Mercy- in favor of capital punishment system that doesn�t consider mercy or repentance"
When we as members of society are all smart enough to do what we are suppose to do then we wouldn't need jails at all. Unfortunately there is this thing called the sin nature which requires punishment (even the death penalty) to make people stop and think.
"Charity-tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of the entire country-50 million disabled, 50 million without insurance"
You got me on this one!!! To whom much is given, much is required. God did not bless the wealthy for them to spend it on ourselves. We have the obligation to take care of each other. Our Constitution says to 'promote the general welfare'...this is NOT our current welfare system but rather to make sure everyone can earn a living wage and have their needs met. "I pay taxes for that" makes me sick. We ARE the government. It is OUR responsibility to help those around us.
Barack Obama could have graduated Harvard Law, gone onto a huge multi-million dollar corporation, sat back in his nice leather chair and watch this country continue the cliche: the rich get richer at the expense of the poor.
BUT! he didn't. that is the important thing. He went on to work with the poorest of poor. He turned his back to monetary greed and power. I would think evangelicals would be blind not to see good in this man's lifetime actions. I'm proud they are switching over.
"Peace- a party that has an overly aggressive foreign policy that rushes to war"
Rush to war? No. It was long overdue. The we turned a blind eye to muslim extremism until they attacked us. These extremists want you dead because you live in western culture...they need no other reason.
The problem is those who do not grasp this because they themselves cannot think that way. It's just to out there for many to grasp. That doesn't change the extremist mindset who wants western culture 'removed' from the planet...period.
Clinton knew...that's why Hillary has not been the anti-war radical many have wanted her to be.
It all comes back to loving your neighbor as yourself. America has bought into the big house, nice car and condo mentality when there are those in need right in our same town.
I encourage people when we are on the subject to fix their living so that 1/3 of their net is available for helping other people. I know people who have it as high as 90%! You will never run out of people to help and the rewards are beyond measure.
stanjz
You know, I have seen you write that far more people die of starvation and poverty every year than abortion. I can't seem to find any number for people who die of starvation in this country. I CAN find the numbers of people who die from abortion. Its about 1 million per year (we're up to about 40 million since 1972) in this country alone. Canada about 110,000. 40,000 in Czech Republic, 10,000 in Finland, 150,000 in France, 700,000 reported in India, 100,000 in Italy, 19,000 in Israel, 33,000 in Netherlands, 18,000 in New Zealand, 13,000 in Norway, 400,000 in Philippines, 190,000 in Romania, 1,800,000 in Russia (at one point USSR had 5.5 Million/year). The numbers for those 14 countries come to about 4.5 million per year. There are about 195 countries in this world.
But even so. Lets pretend you are right, that all the abortions that occur worldwide is less than 10 million per year (that makes the assumption that the higher number is correct, which I do not agree with, given its from UNICEF).
This country does a lot to support starving people worldwide. Unfortunately, many regimes take the money or food and use it for purposes other than feeding the poor.
But to suggest that abortion is less deserving of being stopped than hunger is to ignore Christ's teaching suggesting that acting in anger is equivalent to murder. And there is no doubt that abortion is murder. We must strive to stop both things - murder and starving.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_about_abortion_by_country
http://www.christianliferesources.com/?/library/view.php&articleid=1042
My take on revelation is the only people to go pre trib is the 144,000 (rev 14:1-5 )pure men who will fight for Christ at the end of tribulation. Rev 20-4 says those that died in the tribulation without taking the mark will be resserected and rule with him for one thousand years. If it were pre-trib this would not happen! the second resserection calls up everyone. Here I am not sure my understanding is some Believers will give in and take the mark but will be redeemed at this time.
calling something sinful and following what God views things as they are is not demonizing the individual whom you are commanded to love, but condeming a sinful act just like thiefs, rapist, murderers, liar, adulterers, etc all which every person has partake in some way. We are all sinners. Howver we are to fight for the way of the Truth. You criticize tax cuts for donations which I am lower middle class, but use to be able to give generously to organizations that take up God's work regardless if it is a religous or non-religous charity. The Bible says an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, which this country has used to guide us and gauranteed in the constituion when it said excessive punishment for an offense is not allowed. Do some people get it wrong somtimes? Yes. America give the most money in humartitarian aid in the world by our government to fight poverty, and is overwhelmingly supported by republicans and democrats. You criticize charity tax cuts for donation, but alot of poverty is fought by these organizations.
Republican leadership related to Christianity:
Love- Republican leadership demonizes those different than them including immigrants, homosexuals and Muslims (not just radicals)
Peace- a party that has an overly aggressive foreign policy that rushes to war
Charity-tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of the entire country-50 million disabled, 50 million without insurance
Mercy- in favor of capital punishment system that doesn’t consider mercy or repentance
Barack Obama proposed increasing aid to foreign countries to address things like this.
1. According to UNICEF, 26,500-30,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.â€ÂSource 4
Far more children die from poverty everyday and year than from abortion. That's why Christ has sermon after sermon denouncing greed and storing treasure on earth. Barack was attacked by Republicans who lied again by saying he wants to raise everyone's taxes when it was only the wealthiest individuals taxes he proposed to raise and only by a few percentage points.
I have been brought up as a pre-trib. But in my desire to know the truth (other than just accept what tradition may present), I find myself, at this time, to be in a position of "non-affiliated". LOL. If there is a pre-trib then there is a distinction between the "catching up of the saints" and the return of Jesus. Those events are two totally separate events.
I have heard arguments from each viewpoint, even the teaching of non-rapture. Each present a convincing argument.
I am ready (I pray) for whatever may happen. If I am ready to go through the tribulation, then I am ready if He decides to take us first. My human side would much rather skip tribulation and persecution. LOL. But as God sees fit, I pray His strength to endure to the end.
Believer, ya - I think it is possible that a Pre-Trib Rapture does not 'necessarily' involve Christ coming to the earth to 'catch' us up.
But what I was pointing out in the previous comment is that infact a lot of Fundamentalists (I'm not using the term in a derogetory way - which a lot of people do) hold to the teaching that Christ has to come down to earth to 'catch' the believers up (in Pre-Trib thought) because Satan is 'in the air' (cf. Eph 2:2), so Christ must 'chuaffer' us through 'enemy' territory.......
Again, 2 camps of Pre-Trib thought: 1. one of which (you hold to) which is Christ calling the saints out of the earth. 2. Christ comes to earth to take the saints out of the earth (because of the 'enemy' territory).
I think the second view conflicts with Scriptures on this point (namely they have to juggle with three comings of Christ). While the first view does not necessarily conflict with Scripture on this point.
matthew, I think the diiference is that in the Rapture Christ will call His Church out as opposed to take His Church out, the difference being that He does not come to the earth physically and therefore that does count as a coming to earth and there would still only be two comings of Chrsit to earth. Like I said that's why even though I lean toward the pre side of the discussion I don't spend much time parking in the Book of Revelation.
You could be right on that point. I just thought it was an interesting (although not necessarily logically valid) point that the Catholics bring up. Although a lot of Fundamentalists do think Christ will return to 'catch' up the Church, because Satan's dominion is in 'the air', so Christ needs to 'chauffer' us through 'enemy' territory. In this case, it does seem that (according to a lot of Fundi's) there is three comings - which doesn't really square with Scriptures.
Catholics are Amillenialists - because Augustine was. So they have their theology - and that's it. Unfortunately, a lot of their theology is incredibly poor (e.g. prayer offered to Mary, and other saints).
Curious, but how would pre-trib necesaarily mean a coming of Christ. For this event to take place it does not mean Christ has to be present. His power does not require this.
Prophet: Just out of curiousity, are you a: (pre/post-Trib) Premillenialist, or an Amillenialist?
I would consider myself Post-Trib Premillenialist, although I also find Amillenialism attractive.
Of course it can symbolize honour. 10 crowns, the crown of many dominions/nations. Honour of saints, or the honour that the AC will have.
Anways, getting into details of prophecy can be tricky and meticulous (and most of the time wrong). Let's just wait and see what happens (with a rough sketch in our minds of what should happen).
Well, like I said, I can't prove it. That's just what I get from the text 'bent on conquest.' I'm willing to admit I could be wrong.
Read Matthew 24:24 Foe there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
In my experience, future prophecy in the Bible is Gods way of showing us we really don't understand all we think we do. After all, Proverbs says a wise man sees a problem from afar and seeks to avoid it. If we understood prophesys before it happened...well I doubt we'd seek to avoid it either way no would we?
And since a crown can symbolize great honor, then why can't the crown on the rider symbolize great honor?
Matthew,
You didn't answer my question. Where does it say that the rider of the white horse has "unchecked lusts and passions." It seems to me that that is a doctrine that you had been taught at one time.
I just had a huge response exceeding 3000 characters, but it was deleted by the site. I'm not about to rewrite it. Sorry if this doesn't suffice.
I just had a huge response exceeding 3000 characters, but it was deleted by the site. I'm not about to rewrite it. Sorry if this doesn't suffice.
Prophet: for the woman, not necessarily. A crown can also symbolize in Scripture great honour (e.g. Rev. 3:11, James 1:12, etc.). It mentions a crown with 12 stars. One would assume (though I haven't researched it much) that the twelve stars represent the twelve tribes of Isreal.
Like I said, I don't think it's Christ: 1. Unchecked lusts and passions 2. the Seals tend to (except for interlude in Heaven) be a series of plagues, so it seems odd Christ would be placed in that series of plagues.
1. It said he's a 'conquerer bent on conquest' in the NIV. It says, "... and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to conquer." in the ASV.
Now, I'm just alluding to the fact that it seems that he has passions and lusts. I can't prove it, but the verse in the different translations tend to paint a photograph of an earthly (as in worldly) ruler. You almost get the picture that he's like an Alexander the Great.
'Bent on conquest' in the NIV gives you a picture that that is his lust/desire, conquest. He'll stop at nothing until he's successful.
Although Christ will 'rule the nations with an iron sceptor,' I think that Christ will subdue the nations, but I don't think Christ fits the picture of Rev. 6:2 (in several translations) too well.
Like I said, I realize I haven't proven it, and there are two predominant interpretations (AC, and Christ). But it seems that the AC interpretation is favourable, based on reason (1) and (2).
As for the white horse, white horse could either mean a good rider (Christ), or it could mean an evil rider (for the devil is also called 'the angel of light').
In Revelations 12, it talks about the woman in the wilderness wearing a crown. Does that mean she has dominion over a country?
Actually,
Being mentioned in two different parts of the book with two different names makes it seem that they are two completely different people. And I don't know where you're getting that the white rider had unchecked lusts. That's not mentioned anywhere.
Well you could be right about the linguistic bit about the crown. I'm not well versed in the Greek.
As for the Rider, and the Beast - I think it's highly plausible that the Bible is refering to the same man. The Bible refers to the man as 'the man of lawlessness,' 'Antichrist,' 'the Beast,' etc. All that has to be is two different titles of the same man (Obamanation?). Plus, since the fact that the 'rider' and 'the Beast' are mentioned in two different areas (one in Chapter 6, the other in 13), it only increases the likelihood that two seperate titles are given to refer to the same man.
Besides, it seems highly unlikely that the rider is Christ (as some commentators have claimed) because briefly, as already stated, 1. it seems the rider has unchecked passions and lusts 2. the seals are a series of plagues (except 5th seal, which is an interlude in Heaven, with which God says to the saints to 'wait until the full number of brothers have been martyred'), and thus it seems rather odd Christ would be one of the plagues.
I don't think the crown on the rider of the white horse is a nation. Here's why. The word "crown" is a different venacular than that of the word "crown" when used in reference to the beast.
And it seems odd that the AC is refered to as a rider of a white horse in one moment, and a beast in another.
Obama will get no votes from True Blood Bought Christians ! This story is just the radical liberal bias` media and their hype ! It`s all in trying to make folks think that Obama is unbeatable by the never ending brainwashing by the radical media`s reporting of lies and falsehoods about where Obama is the stongest , when really that is his weakest, and they want to discourage No Obama voters into thinking there`s no use voting !
Prophet, that's an interesting interpretation - The crown of the First Seal being world domination.
I don't think it's correct though, here's why:
1. Revelation 6:1-2 say that the AC will be given a crown, and he will ride out 'as a conquerer bent on conquest.' If the crown is world dominion, then why would he need to ride out 'bent on conquest' when he already has the crown (world dominion)?
2. If AC has the crown (world dominion), why would '...reports from the east and the north ... alarm him....'(cf. Daniel 11:44)? Since he would already have world dominion. Sure, it could be argued that it could be civil uprising, but even that is unconvincing: Because Rev. 16:16 describes '...they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon....' So it seems that there will be other kings on the earth, other than the Beast.
So it seems that the Beast will have a vast reaching empire, but not total world dominion. Sure, he'll have the hearts and minds of the world, and the whole world will 'worsip the beast' (cf. Rev 13:4), but the same verse also says, 'Who can make war against him?' Implying that there are kings to still make war with.
So I hope I'm being clear and concise, but these evidences seem to allude to other dominions outside the Beast's control (although, as already stated, the whole world will love and worship the beast).
Anyways, we'll just have to wait and see what happens as far as what exactly happens.
Furthermore, I'll kick a dead cat, and allude to why the rider on a white horse seems to be the Beast. I know we both seem to be in agreement with this, but I'll tell you why I think it's the case, and you can comment if you want: The seals all seem to be plagues, so why would Christ be mentioned as one of the plagues (Christ, being one of the common interpretations of the rider on the white horse)? 'Bent on conquest' also seem to allude to the rider having unchecked passions and lusts, which is impossible of Christ.
Great discussion though, I always enjoy debating back and forth between you, believer, wbmoore, and the rest of the gang of Christians on this forum.
Matthew,
It's interesting to note that a different word for crown is used in the scripture you referenced about the white horse then the ones used for the beast with ten crowns. Though the ten crowns on the beast may represent actual countries or regions, the crown on the white horse may merely represent a given authority. It says that the white horse came to conquer...which means to bring others under subjection to him, or to have authority over others. I agree that the white horse most likely does represent the AC, but the crown probably means that he will have authority over the world. I have serious doubts that the crown represents a country or region.
Prophet, Believer: Agreed.
Prophet: Well, my thoughts on the State's involvement in end of time are this: Revelation 6:2 speaks of the First Seal: It appears the proper interpretation is the AC is given a crown (namely a nation) - Wouldn't it be convenient if Obamanation was given the 'crown' of the U.S.. It also speaks later 10 crowns (cf. Rev 13:1-2) - well who's to say that the U.S. isn't one of those 'crowns.' If this is the case, then there would be no need to mention the U.S., because they would just be one of the 'crowns.'
It also says that the son of the Dragon will be alarmed from reports from the East (and the North) will alarm him (cf. Daniel 11:44), yet it makes no mention of the specific nations.
So conclusion: I think that although certain nations will play a critical roll of the rise and demise of the Beast, the Scriptures have no need to mention the specific nations involved.
Hey,
I'll save y'all a seat in heaven, k?
matthew, no offense taken plus this is a discussion among Christians where we all wind-up at the same place, heaven with the Lord and other believers for eternity, except you non-pre-tribers get there later than us pre-tribers, ha!
matthew,
Well, both of our opinions are just that. Opinions. Though I believe that if America were to play some major role in end times then it would be mentioned. I see nowhere that the word "west" comes into play in the end times. If you could reference the scripture it would help me.
As you see from my post that started this discussion, I gave two options. One of which is that America is still around, but really has no, or very little, influence on global events.
Prophet: Precisely, they're points on a map. They were what they called then Gog and Magog, now I believe it's the Soviet Union (though, that's just what I've heard, I haven't investigated a lot into 'Gog and Magog'). In Scriptures, there was no old school term for North America, so the best you can do is 'the West.'
All I'm really saying is that just because the U.S. isn't mentioned in Scriptures, doesn't mean it doesn't play a role in the end times. Look at Britain, God used that Country to spread the gospel throughout the world in the 17 and 1800's, yet God never mentions 'Britain' in Scriptures.
Believer: I agree, we shouldn't get too caught up in details of Rapture theology. My aim was to give the staunch Pre-Trib guys a run for their money: Of course in a good Christian way, where we could have a friendly debate on the subject. But of course, we should get the priorities straight before quibbling about smaller issues.
Matthew,
You could be right about Obama. But Gog and Magog are actual geographical points on a map. West is merely a direction that could encompass a number of countries, including france and britian.
matthew, the teaching I've received says that Christ never comes to earth but with the sound of the trumpet calls His Church physically out, first those who have died and then those who still remain will be taken up. And since Christ for lack of a better term never lands, it keeps this view in synch with the Bible's teaching of the 1st and 2nd Coming only. It's issue like this that I feel Satan often uses not so much to confuse us, but to divide us and distract us from doing the main thing, joining God in fulfilling His Great Commission.
Ya, I agree, you can't get too fuddled in the details of future prophetic events.
However, I heard from somewhere (from Catholics - of all Christians) that a Pre-Trib Rapture would rightly mean that Christ has 3 Comings (First coming, Second Coming to take the Church out of Tribulation, Third Coming to come back with the saints and judge), which doesn't square with Scripture.
I'm pro-trib, I'm for it any way God chooses to bring it. To be honest I tend to lean toward the pre-trib, but I also believe the Church will go through a terrible time of tribulation before we are taken out. But since these are all prophetic issues we're discussing, in the words of a wise pastor, who has gone home to be with the Lord, we dare not plant our feet in concrete on these issues.
Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib....I'm pan-trib. It will all pan out in the end....
Jesus said to be ready. Theirs the mission.
http://www.brianmclaren.net/archives/blog/q-a-vicious-blogs-and-doctrine.html
On this page you will see a reference to a radio interview where Brian McLaren said there is no hell. He is against the war on terror and believes we shouldn't have done anything in Iraq.
Secondly, CNN is not a reliable news source to start with. In Europe they run anti-American stories which even liberal democrates would have problems with. We had a friend of ours come back from a trip and thought he'd turn on CNN to get the latest news...was he ever shocked!
There are many who will say 'Lord, Lord' on the day of judgement but Jesus will say depart from me you wicked for I never knew you. Obama may be getting some of the 'evangelical' vote but that doesn't mean they are or are not Christians.
If everyone who claimed to be Christian in America actually was we wouldn't have the social problems we do and there would be no real needs now would there?
Post-trib...pre-trib.
I know there will be one. If it is before the tribulation, I am spiritually ready to meet Jesus.
If it is post-trib, I pray that by God's grace I am strong enough to endure til the end.
The biggest hurdle the Pre-Trib guys have for them is this argument: that since God is immutable, and God for his glory and by his Sovereignty has allowed His saints to pass through grevious tribulation and martyrdom; therefore we must conclude that God will act in the same way by allowing his servants to pass through the Tribulation.
Pre-Trib guys have to overcome this argument for it begin to sound plausible. They also must point out passages of Scripture (without completely warping the Scriptures) that point to Pre-Trib Rapture.
As far as I know, they have not, and cannot. But my aim is to have a friendly debate with you IGH, not to be offensive.
My stance is: Post-Trib Rapture. It fits in most comfortably with Scriptures, and God's revealed will for His saints.
Ok, ok, I should be more precise, there is no convincing shred of evidence in Scripture for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Generally, preachers who want to talk about Scriptural evidence for Pre-Trib Rapture must warp Scripture to do this.
We first must pass through the Tribulation (if this is indeed the generation -- which I believe it is), just as the holy martyers had to pass through grevious tribulations.
The Pre-Trib rapture theology is popular in North America, where we have to suffer very little for our faith. Not so in Paul's day, Stephen's day, or Ignatius' day - where they had to suffer to the point of spilling their blood for the Faith.
I, as you, IGH, believe in Rapture, but I cannot help but conclude that it must happen after Tribulation. Based on Scriptural evidence and revealed evidence of the martyrs.
bite yer tongue matthew. There is indeed a Gathering. A Rapture. Some think its before some during and some after the Tribulation. But most agree that indeed there is a Rapture of Christs Servants , the Children of God. There is tons of evidence on this.
2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Prophet:
The U.S. isn't going to fall, Obama will usher in a new world order with the U.S. at the forefront. Just because the U.S. isn't mentioned in the Scriptures, doesn't mean that they'll just disolve. If you notice how prophecy works in the Scriptures, they always use the oldschool terminology (e.g. Gog, and Magog) for the land. What's the oldschool terminology for the States? The best we could give is the 'West.'
2. The Rapture is phony bologny nonsense (no offense to anyone that believes in it). A whole lot of people are going to be surprised when we aren't wisked away to heaven: that we'll actually have to suffer for our faith.
Perhaps that's why Jesus said many will fall away in those days: when a whole bunch of people actually realize we aren't going to be whisked away on a cloud out of Tribulation.
It's interesting to note that Russia (which is mentioned in the Bible) is vying to have the rubble as a world currency because it is one of the most stable currencies in the world. Interesting.
Well, the American government and nation must fall. For two reasons. One...all governments will encounter difficulties or fall in order to make ready for the anti-christ.
Two...I believe America must fall because it is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. That means we are either a: completely wiped out. or b: we have somehow been knocked down from "superpower" status and have no influence on global events.
I bnelieve in tiered system of income, however I don't believe that anyone should pay more than 50% of thier income all taxes combined. That take the initiative out of any one to achieve the American Dream. I am a small business owner and have a hard time with it, but it is worth the hard work, but not if I had to pay that much taxes, I would have to charge much higher prices to make my own moderate living. Those prices would kill my customers who are middle income. There really is no easy fix. I pray there is a solution though. I prefer privitization of social security for the same reason. Government messe things up when they have to much control. If there was a good way to switch over the system without hurting people who already paid I'd like that. If we can pay off some of our debt nationally we could afford the risk, but til then we must make it work
NAFTA is a mess and, I have always thought we should do away with Corporate tax and tax the people getting the money out of it, however that would put more tax on the higher income groups, and thats the rich fight it. As far a income tax the top 10% only about 50% and the payroll tax they need to take the cap off, this from Pete Peterson a billionalre by the way, so that they could fix social security.
JHS
those jobs created overseas is due to two things NAFTA signed in by Clinton by the way. And by Bush not arguing for lesser corporate tax rate. I did not say lesser payroll taxes by the rich as You can see. Overseas the rate is around 10% we simply can not compete to keep them incorporated here. Obama was speaking out on NAFTA then stopped, and is changing his mind. I like NAFTA's concept too but think our guys need to seriously level the playing fiel to bring those jobs back here. America has more to offer with our vast knowledge, but money always wins. I think you can agree with me on that
James Reynolds
And the Clinton make Bush presidency look lik the Golden years. The middle class was better off and everyone got a piece of the pie, 90% of the gains the last 7 years have gone top 10% , as far as job's bush has created more jobs in India, china and mexico than he has here. Bush sold this country out to the highest bidder, and the middle class is paying for it.
James Reynolds
Actually the top 10% pay 50% of the taxes, they still have a ways to go, as far as Clinton, I did read your text, and it sure seemed to me you were blaming him.
second of all, read what I have written. Where did I blame Clinton for all things in the economy? I said no admin can take all the blame for the economy. This goes for Clinton as well when he inherted things from the first Bush. It sounds as you only hear or read things in a way that backs your claim, instead of the truth in the words,which maybe why some people question if you really understand the words of God. Sorry for being blunt, but readthe post for what they are.
JHS you have the right numbers but wrong meaning 10% of the people pay 70% of the taxes the government collects
I am one evangelical who will not vote for Obama. I also will not vote for McCain. I will only vote third party from now on since the two party system is broken beyond repair.
The only reason John McCain panders to us christians is because he knows that he can't win without us. Now that Hillary is not the dem nominee, evangelicals will not turn out in record numbers to vote against her. That means that McCain now has to work for our vote since it's no longer guaranteed.
He probably throws up in his mouth a little bit everytime he has to say something nice about the church since he can't stand us. Unfortunately for him the feeling is mutual. Third party here I come.
Neither McCain and Obama talk of salvation and grace. I opine that neither has been touched by the Grace of God. I would like to see both tell the truth. I can vote for a person who has yet to be saved, but I find it difficult to vote for a liar. At this point, at least McCain has hedged around the issue rather than blatently attempting to deceive.
JHS,
I didn't mean "ethnicities" but "religious persuasions". I didn't proof text.
JHS,
I would agree that we live in a different world then in days past, but the evangelical/Judeo-Christian persuasion still holds the greatest majority. Other ethnicities do not hold as much influence as the liberal elements lead us all to believe or force us to think.
Our nation can only work if at its base is the Judeo/Christian worldview. How does naturalism give you "inalienable rights"? Hinuism? Islam??
I believe wholeheartedly in a pluralism of culture but NOT in a pluralism of ideas. i.e. all roads lead to God.
So back to Obama... Does he believe that all roads lead to God? yes, he does. Is this in opposition to scripture? Yes, it is - Jesus said HE and ONLY HE is the only way to God. Is Jesus a liar? "God is not a man that He should lie." So that means Obama is either lying or he's ignorant.
Either way, he is NOT affirming the Truth of scripture and the exclusive claims of Christ. Any 1st year Christian KNOWS that Jesus has claimed to be the only way. Only someone in ignorance or someone who is posing as a Christian and doesn't know Christ would argue otherwise.
The title of this article shows the immaturity of the Church. Easily seduced and led away by doctrines of demons.
"Winston sank his arms to his sides and slowly refilled his lungs with air. His mind slid away into the labyrinthine world of doublethink. To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself. That was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink."
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
TWPeck ,
And for the record the top 10% in the US now control 70% of the wealth where as in 2000 they controlled 50%. This is not healthy for a democracy or good for the middle class, and it has to be changed or you will only have 2 groups of people the rich and working poor.
TWPeck .
I suppose you would do away with social security and medicare as well, I am sure you against a minimum wage as well.
While we will never find a "savior" in a politician, Christians who believe in Scripture should have a hard time swallowing Mr. Obama, given his grevious misinterpretations and misrepresentations of God's Word, and his horrific stance on cultural issues such as abortion (he is not opposed to allowing children who survive an abortion attempt to die).
One thing, though, that no one has yet responded to is the idea that it is okay to take someone's money, involuntarily through taxation, and give that money to someone else, through benefits or services. That seems patently unfair to me.
Yes, we are to feed the hungry and care for the sick, but at our expense, not at the expense of another.
Anyone have a response?
tpique1 ,
No one is denying that there is truth, however we live in a multi cultural multi society, and the sooner the fundamentalist evangelical crowd gets used to it, and understands that the Jerry Falwell days are over, the better off we will all be.
GRAND RAPIDS, Mich., July 3 /Christian Newswire/ -- Sen. Barack Obama's new support for the federal Faith-Based Initiative will put religious charities under onerous government oversight on hiring and program activities.
Acton Institute Experts: Obama's Faith-Based Initiative a Threat to Religious Freedom
Contact: Robert Holmes, Acton Institute, 616-454-3080
JHS,
What do you consider "beating over the head"? Proclaiming Truth in a wicked generation? Well if that's the case, then you'll have to condemn all of the prophets of the Old Testament, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul and all of the other disciples. Because in times when the culture had so become reprobate, GOD raised up men to stand in a generation and warn - warn of judgment to come, the consequences of sin - and to call the people BACK to repentance.
Truth is no something that is "negotiable". It is exclusive. You either stand on it, or you stand in opposition to it. There is no fence sitting in Christianity. You're either in or you're out; you're either hot or cold. Choose you this day who you will serve. The world or Christ. Men or God.
There are enough diagnostic experts, and false Christians out there destroying the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Sometimes, you have to take a stand for Truth and tell the devil and those who are animated by him: "This far and no further."
We are not called to be to be liked. Standing for truth in a wicked and evil generation will cause men to cast you out and hate you (Jesus' words). If you're not ready for that, then stand aside.
biggie2, so now your saying obama is God? By the way you never did say did I pass the Biggie Challenge?
Swordbearer :
Obama "the anti christ", and you wonder why people think the evangelical community is nuts!!!!!!!!!
James Reynolds,
To blame Clinton for the current economic situation, you either must be high on pot or have a 5th chromosome!!!!!
Why we should not vote for ObamA and why we Should all vote for McCain.
Obama has all the makings of the AntiChrist
Visit: answers2why.blog.com
for more info..
Poor evangelicals taking the side of Obama, these are truly the last days when many are being fooled. God said if it were possible even the elect will be fooled. Now I know what He mean.
God help us all..
The Swordbearer
swordbearer4@gmail.com
e-mail me for a file called Obama Exposed.
I love you all in Christ...even if you vote for Obamination.
tpique1 ,
I know my bible well, I just chose not beat people over the head with it!
I believe that our Faith should come before any politics. Look at what people do not only say. See who they suround themselves with, gird it through the context of the bible and vote for the man who best represents your faith. Look deeply into claims. For example Obama said he supports Bush's faithbased programs and wants to expand it, but then says oh you waqnt our money you must hire gays, peopel of different religion than yours etc.. how does that help us? Just make our Christ-centered programs not cntered on Christ
Chris333,
Ya that's very true - the lion's share of our focus should be the love of Christ.
I'm pretty much convinced though, let's just say I've seen some strange stuff happening around this guy (pagan prophets lapping every word of his up, some of it is even demonic, etc. etc. etc.).
Anyways, what maybe I should try and be saying with all of this is: Watch out for the guy, make sure we don't get sucked into his slick rhetoric, because I believe this guy's the son of the Dragon.
SOMEONE destroy this man's career with TRUTH!
I dont care if the guy goes on a homocidal rampage, the truth is going to cut him in half!
It's depressing to see that Obama is deceiving everyone!
I am so sick of McLaren. Christians need to realize what Obama supports--unchecked abortion-on-demand. He is the complete opposite of anything even remotely Christian. If you don't like McCain (which I don't) that's fine. But voting for Obama is unthinkable.
matthew,
There is no debate, not for Christians. We should be more worried about growing in Christ than searching for the anti-Christ. Criticize Obama on his merits not on what some weirdo fans believe, I am sure you could find somebody who thinks pretty much any famous person is going to be their messiah.
LOL! Biggie2 - you're such a fluff- Osama is a fluff - I'm sure you two would make good bed-fellows.
Believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior then Repent and be baptized!
Yeaaaah! God loves not only gays but blacks too! Evangelicals - your anti-Christ will take over the world! Bow to your new God now! OBAMA!
Who else thinks Obama is the Antichrist?
I know, I know, people have falsely claimed leaders in the past as Antichrist (from Nero to Clinton). But you got to admit, he fits all the prereqs for Antichrist material.
Just a brief example, some people on the internet think he's 'the messiah.' Go to Youtube, and type in 'Obama Messiah' and you'll get tonnes of videos, a lot of them are pretty strange. Also check out this website: http://www.obamamessiah.blogspot.com/.
Let the debate begin!
"I think there's a very, very sizable percentage – I think between a third and half – of evangelicals, especially younger [evangelicals], who are very open to somebody with a new vision," said Brian McLaren, a former pastor and now informal adviser to the Obama campaign, according to CNN."
Former Pastor? Wonder why.
Informal advisor? No real weight to what he says, but the networks probably offer good money right now.
" he who takes federal money must jump through there hoops." so obama wants to help or control?
JHS,
Let's get something straight first. I do not have a "party". I am a BIBLICAL Christian, which is to say I'm one who follows the dictates of Jesus Christ, not the political apostasies of some reprobate candidate.
Furthermore, it's not about "losing people". People are ALREADY lost, that is apparent by the absolute lack of biblical knowledge and spiritual fruit possessed by most evangelicals and the Church as a whole.
I don't give a care about your party affiliation, the democrats, republicans, Obama, McCain or any other godless, worldly focused system.
I have one ambition - CHRIST! To know Him, to live for Him, and to go and make disciples as He has commanded us to.
HOWEVER, I am also called to stand on a wall and warn. To sound the church bell, as it were, to false teaching just as Paul commanded Timothy to do, as well as to sound the alarm on obvious wolves posing as sheep. We ALL have that obligation!
If there are Christians today who are content being deceived and are OK with exalting a false Christian (look at his fruit) then by all means knock yourself out. Christians are called to WARN as well as witness.
Perhaps you should get out that dusty old Bible of yours and start reading it instead of taking an "ostrich-with -his-head-in-the-sand" approach to faith.
I do not believe you must be republican to be a Christian I did not say that. I asked what then did they do for abortion which you eluded they may have. Second the economy is an ever adjusting system. The corporate practices of falsely saying how much they earned, gave an impression things were well during Clinton years( which obviously it wasn't). When the truth was found out it was a backlash during Bush years for many when caught had to file for bankruptcy, close thier doors and to lay off people. That is a fact. May point being no administration can take the entire heat for things that happened. Just as you may point to republican ideas that may have helped out. However, currently I feel the current crisis focus around the housing crash which I pointed out earlier. If finace institutions are hurting the whole economy goes downhill. No money to give to risk takers who could possibly help out the economy.
As far as evangelicals I have many friends and family members who are evangelical, even if my kids grow up and become evangelicals, I am ok with it. Do not let me make you think I am anti evangelical. I even went to a evangelical university. However, I find it interesting that if you don't vote republican, you are evil and not christian, and frankly I find that to be a non christian attitude!
James Reynolds
And for the record, the Dems created the middle class, lead us out a a republican great depression, through world war II, and set the foundations for social security and medicare. The Dems have done more for the middle class on accident than the republican ever did on purpose!
James Reynolds
It hurts to laugh this hard. Clinton has been out for over 7 years, if you are trying to blame a failed Iraq policy, $145 for oil and the largest housing crisis since the great depression, then with all due respect your smoking dope and not exhailing!
Regards.
lets see why is the economy bad? No oversight in the Clinton admin, that corporations were filing false productivity document. Dems fought hard under disguise of The American Dream, to lower standards for loans to buy home. Now those people can not afford payments they agreed to, becasue those same people are prone to overspend.
The thing is, McCain is a sleezy politician as well, they all are! I for one think politics has come down to choosing the lesser of 2 evils. In my opinion, Republicans have trashed our country and our relations with foreign countries: Its time to see what a Democrat in the hot seat can do!
JHS
The truth is republicans have tried to do something about abortion.You can not just make it illegal til you have a supreme court that is willing to overturn Roe Vs. Wade. The republicans fought hard for partial birth abortion(whcih dems opposed) and was challenged by abortion groups. Judges are trying to dismiss the law. Bush appointed judges who are conservative. What has any Dem done that you are so proud of
jhs-
Good point that the Republican leadership failing us when they had control. The didn't amend the federal constitution to ban same sex marriage because they were whimps. Now, we're paying for it. But Brainiac, who's in control of Congress now - as the economy adjusts itself? Are those the same freaks in Congress that prohibits us access to our own resources?
Holy toledo JHS - Did you inadvertently hit the all caps button or something?
I don't see how he can pry any evangelicals loose with his voting record on abortion and the gay agenda. Only if one is ignorant of his stances, can he pry them loose. But for those who read his voting record, he is just not an option. Unfortunately, John McCain leaves a lot to be desired also. Perhaps by their nominated candidates, we can tell how bankrupt of ideas and morality both political parties are. Not to fear, however. He Reigns and He's coming back for His own.
YOU ALL ARE STUCK ON ABORTION, I AM AGAINST IT, BUT WHEN YOUR PARTY HAD CONTROL, TIL 06 OF THE ENTIRE COUNTRY THEY DID NOT OUTLAW IT. AND FOR THE RECORD BOTH BUSH WIVES ARE PRO CHOICE. STOP HIDING BEHIND THE UNBORN ALL THE WHILE YOUR REPUBLICAN BUDDIES DRIVE THE ECONOMY INTO THE GROUND!
James-
Great point. Osama (oopps, I mean Obama) and his fellow dems are just itching to grab ahold of faith based institutions and attempt to brainwash these places into their "tolerant" mentality. Case in point and somewhat in the same direction: The Catholic Adoption facility that had to close down because they would (ooo, do I dare say the word) NOT TOLERATE gay's to adopt using their organization. The gay agenda cohorts sued; the judge said allow gays to adopt or shut down; and the Catholics chose to shut down. Barrack is will do the same on a national level. Or at least he be told to as I'm sure he's just a prop.
tpique1 "If Obama is "prying loose" evangelicals, they were never evangelicals in the first place"
And people like you wonder why you are losing people right and left, maybe they should be Christians first instead of evangelicals!!!!
One further thing this article does not say is that he wants to change one very important aspect of this bill Bush fought hard for us on. What is that...he wants to force these religious groups to allow anyone to join thier organization regardless of faith or ideology. So, essentially these organizations will become political instead of religious, wont ask for essential funds, or the whole program will bephased out because the churches will not back down.
If Obama is "prying loose" evangelicals, they were never evangelicals in the first place:
"Some will fall away from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils."
abortion has had its biggest movement against it while republicans were in office. the signed the partial birth bill, which Obama opposes. That would not have been passed by a democrat majority or president. We must also have the favor of the Supreme court or nothing will stay law regarding this. War is tough. The bible used war for gain in Isereal and for punishment. I wish I knew more. The most important troubling thing is who Obama surrounds himself with spiritually. His biggest supporter Oprah who he praises believes there are many ways to heaven, and leads a class (church) saying you yourself are God. Wright preaches in a style thatsparks hate to whites instead of telling hisfollowers to lay aside animosity and love thy neighbor just as Christ loves you. We are taught to confront those who are sinfull and to tell them to repent. If Obama can not approach his Pastor, how can he confront country leaders?
Any politician who supports abortion (much less partial birth) and same-sex marriage while trying to cater to the evangelical community is delusional. He should just say what's really in his heart, which is "god d___ America"
Oh, has that already been said somewhere???
James Reynolds
Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:52 am : 1 : 1 Flag
Guys abortion is against God's will and creation. Obama is for abortion. He is only supporting fluff in orderto get our vote. His view on the Bible, His church he chose to stay in all prove his true beliefs. Do not be decieved by false prophets
Spot on James. Totally agree
Obama will say anything it takes to get elected, his record speaks volumes all by itself. He is just another wolf in a sheep skin.
the right wing evangelical crowd has misused the scriptures to justify war in Iraq, intolerance, and while they had control of the goverment, yet we still have abortion. People are tired of hearing that Obama is a wolf in sheeps clothing, we have that right now!
Guys abortion is against God's will and creation. Obama is for abortion. He is only supporting fluff in orderto get our vote. His view on the Bible, His church he chose to stay in all prove his true beliefs. Do not be decieved by false prophets
As long as this senator approves of abortions (particularly partial birth abortions),
christians should steer clear.
Attn: ZachJonesIsHome
You may want to do a little more research. Obama always puts his hand over his heart when he says the pledge of allegiance. The picture being circulated that claims otherwise is not a picture of the pledge being recited. It is a picture of the national anthem being sung. Obama was not taught (nor was I or many other people I know) to put his hand over his heart for the anthem--only for the pledge. You can see a video of him leading the pledge of allegiance with his hand over his heart here: <http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/patriot>.
And I'm not an Obama supporter. I just want to make sure I get my facts straight before I vote.
artm, for the record the days of puritancial evangelical control of this country are coming to an end, we have spiritual discernment, we just don't hide behind Jesus with republican war mongering greed, we are awake now!
My prayer for the Church is that God will give us eyes to see. Because of a lack of Spiritual discernment the Church will fall for just about anything today.
including a wolf in sheeps clothing(obama).
Senator Obama’s Patriotism – What it means to this Navy Veteran. I hope you consider the following article: Senator Obama's Patriotism - a Veteran's Perspective
It is found at:
http://www.australia.to/international/0,25197,23040467-330,00,00.html
Senator Obama’s Patriotism – What it means to this Navy Veteran. I hope you consider the following article: Senator Obama's Patriotism - a Veteran's Perspective
It is found at:
http://www.australia.to/international/0,25197,23040467-330,00,00.html
Yeah, sure he is. All 12 of them.
GO OBAMA!!!