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Society|Wed, Jul. 02 2008 09:57 AM EDT

Obama Prying Loose Evangelicals from Republicans

By Jennifer Riley|Christian Post Reporter

From his frequent God talk on the campaign trail to his latest proposal to expand aid to faith-based programs, Democrat Barack Obama is serious and aggressive when it comes to courting faith voters.

  • Obama
    (Photo: AP Images /Jae C. Hong)
    Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., speaks during a news conference after he toured the East Community Ministry in Zanesville, Ohio, Tuesday, July 1, 2008.

The Illinois senator not only challenges the long-held tacit alliance between evangelicals and the Republican Party, but is doing so with some success, according to a well-known emergent leader.

"I think there's a very, very sizable percentage – I think between a third and half – of evangelicals, especially younger [evangelicals], who are very open to somebody with a new vision," said Brian McLaren, a former pastor and now informal adviser to the Obama campaign, according to CNN.

McLaren believes a significant number of evangelical voters are breaking away from the Republican Party to rally behind Obama, who speaks about a faith that cares for the poor and seeks to protect the environment.

"We've watched the evangelical community be led – be misled – by the Republican Party to support things they really shouldn't have supported," McLaren said, giving as example the group’s “blind support” for the Iraq war, which he claims was “launched on either mistaken or false pretenses.”

The evangelicals who are attracted to Obama are part of a new generation of faith voters where the issues of Darfur, global warming, poverty, and torture are considered as important, or at least nearly as important, as the traditional key issues of abortion and gay “marriage” when choosing the next president.

As a reminder of his commitment to faith-driven solutions to social problems, Obama announced Tuesday his plans to expand President Bush’s faith-based programs if elected to the White House.

Obama, a former community organizer in Chicago, said his program would better reach smaller congregations, be a “critical part of my administration,” and proposed a $500 million per year program to provide summer learning to 1 million poor children.

White House spokesman Tony Fratto said the faith-based initiative is important to Bush, according to Bloomberg news, and if Obama supports the idea, “that’s something we’d all be very happy about.”

While Obama has been outspoken about his faith and its influence on his political decisions, Republican rival John McCain has been shy about sharing his own Christian faith.

An advisor to the McCain campaign had earlier explained that the Arizona senator does not want to use his personal faith for political gain, according to Christian Broadcasting Network.

Nonetheless, McCain has reached out to influential Christian leaders, including the Greek Orthodox head in America Archbishop Demetrios, and on Sunday, father-son evangelists Billy Graham and Franklin Graham.

Although McCain’s campaign lacks the aggressive outreach of the Obama camp, polls show that he still leads by a wide margin among evangelical voters.

A CNN poll conducted by Opinion Research Corporation in June found nearly two-thirds of white evangelical voters surveyed (64 percent) supported McCain, and 30 percent backed Obama.

Notable, however, is McCain’s significantly lower support from evangelicals as compared to Bush’s 78 percent in the 2004 election, according to exit polls.

"The evangelical community seems to be sitting on the fence to a particular degree," observed Jacques Berlinerblau, a professor at Georgetown University, according to CNN.

And that could open the door for Obama, he said.

"If Sen. Obama can get between 30 and 33 percent [of the evangelical vote] in those crucial swing states, he's absolutely golden," Berlinerblau said.

Obama is focusing his campaign this week on American values, including religious faith and patriotism, leading up to Friday’s Fourth of July holiday.

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  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    This is funny.

    James Reynolds sez: " . . . he wants to force these religious groups to allow anyone to join thier organization regardless of faith or ideology. So, essentially these organizations will become political instead of religious, wont ask for essential funds, or the whole program will bephased out because the churches will not back down.

    So, uh, Mr. Reynolds, are you suggesting that patriotic Christian conservative evangelical churches do not pick and choose their members today? What if one of the "flock" wanted to smoke test religious philosophy at a synagogue or, God forbid, at a mosque? Would that patriotic Christian conservative evangelical church expel that member out of an unfllinching sense of Christian love?

    As for abortion, however reprehensible the procedure might be, don't any of you have lives that are not focused on that subject area day and night? Can you be so obsessed with this one focal point that you are not aware of the hunger, lack of health care, housing, employment, and money that besets this nation today?

    Or of the horrid tragedy that is Iraq manufactured by The Great Satan Bush and his fellow travelers? Are any of you truly Christians or is "Christian" a nice social grouping that gives you a sense of belonging?

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:03 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    "Your anger is so bad, that you cannot possibly come from the Lord."

    I'm just trying to figure out how Jesus could have said "you sons of hell!" in a nice tone of voice. Just how can you drive someone from the temple with a whip and be nice about it? Jesus got mad and rightfully so.

    "Be angry, but do not sin; do not let the sun go down or your wrath, nor give place to the Devil." Eph 4:26-27

    Please note the Bible actually SAYS to be angry. So, exactly what is the basis of your statement? Codependency says we don't want to be angry because anger is bad. Guess what...not being angry when it is appropriate is bad.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Anyone else think it's weird that the title of this article is "Obama Prying Loose Evangelicals from Republicans"....and there's another article on here titled "Obama Backed by Less Religious Americans".

    That just doesn't make sense.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    lina,
    I wasn't sure if you noticed that you were on a Christian message board. What were expecting? Recipes for rhubarb pie?

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    lina,
    Can you think or talk without quoting science?

  • lina »
    Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    IGH - can you think or talk without quoting the Bible?

  • igh »
    Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    lina and dddd becareful on future posts or i will ask the owners of this site to ban you permanently. Dont pull this site into the gutters. You and many others who come here really need to understand that God is good man is wicked and we need Jesus to Save us from the coming Judgement.

    Hebrews 10:29 "What, then, of those who despise the Son of God? who treat as a cheap thing the blood of God's covenant which purified them from sin? who insult the Spirit of grace? Just think how much worse is the punishment they will deserve!
    Heb 10:30 For we know who said, "I will take revenge, I will repay"; and who also said, "The Lord will judge his people."
    Heb 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!"

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:01 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    I don't vote parties. I vote my conscience.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:01 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    lina,
    No, not really.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:35 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Jesus did away with capital punishment.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It's not a matter of the death penalty being a deterent, it's a matter of principle. Both the death penalty and abortion are wrong because people are taking matters of life and death in their own hands. It's important with the death penality because our behavior as Christians have to be above the behavior of murderers.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Do any of you think that you are to use Christ as a bludgeon to hit people over the head with? Do you think God wants people to come to him out of fear or love? Your anger is so bad, that you cannot possibly come from the Lord. When you label people and bully, you committ sin. You can condemn the actions, but not the person. Can I get a role call from everyone on how much time you all spend reading your Bibles everyday?

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Why are some people who are on death row, awaiting execution, put on suicide watch? They're gonna die anyway?"

    Life is full of little ironies now isn't it? The legal system says they have the right to a final appeal to the governor. They cannot do this if they are dead. We wouldn't want to violate their rights even if they waive them.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "And you can't get much more severe in your punishment, unless you get into torture."

    Yep. It's a matter of simply removing the problem if you can's solve it. I was in court today for a freinds case. (The judge explained to his ex's lawyer that the only thing she proved (in 5 hours of court time) was that the child support needed to go up and it did by $10 per week. It cost his ex $13,000 in legal fees closing a 2 year battle.)

    I determined we could end the threat of global warming if they'd end stupid litigation thus removing 90% of the paper usage in the legal world and saving all those trees....

    In short, there will always be people who will do wrong. In the case of murder, sometimes the only real solution is to remove them from society permenantly via the death penalty. It would be so much more simple if people simply didn't murder!

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Obama is only "duping" the weak minded. Which the Bible said would happen. So, I'm not worried.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:58 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    stan,
    Please take scripture in context.
    Romans 2:12-16
    "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

    13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

    16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. "

    Verse 12 talks about those who sinned in the law being judged by the law. Everyone sins. And those who are "such good people" sin too. And when they sin, where is the forgiveness of sin if they do not accept Christ and His sacrifice? There is none, therefore their sin remains and they are judged.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "There is nothing in the Bible that states we have to preach the good news to Muslims."

    uh... wrong.
    John 3:16-18
    16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does NOT BELIEVE STANDS CONDEMNED already BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF GOD'S ONE AND ONLY SON.

    Matthew 28:18-20
    18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
    Acts 4:10-12
    10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is " 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.' 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given to men BY WHICH WE MUST BE SAVED."

    Romans 10:11-15
    11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

    We have to preach the good news to everyone, otherwise, how can they be saved?

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:28 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Why are some people who are on death row, awaiting execution, put on suicide watch? They're gonna die anyway. Is it that they just don't want the inmate to take all the fun out of it?

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    the question is not if the murdering stop, but to what extent did it deter the activity.for example 2,000 first degree murders nationally w/ death penalty or 5000 w/o death penalty. Numbers are made up. then is it working, yes it is if the number are roughly the same then it isn't. does any body know the real data?

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Stanjz
    you did not answer my question

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Daniel,
    I agree to a certain extent with you assessment about severity of punishiment being a determent. But, as we see, that first degree murder is punishable by death. But I don't see people stop murdering. And you can't get much more severe in your punishment, unless you get into torture.

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jeez, I don't even know where to start with you guys. Let me ask this. Do any of you think for yourselves? Steiner said "How many muslims has Obama preached the Gospel to? How many? During the last 23 years of his Christian life has he ever shared the gospel with a Muslim?" There is nothing in the Bible that states we have to preach the good news to Muslims. Peter preached it to his fellow Jews and Paul preached it to the Gentiles. Do you think God is unjust to damn a child who was taught Islam, but never had someone teach him Christianity? Romans 2:13 says not the hearers of the law are justified, but the doers of the law...when those not having the law[ every none Christian, including Muslims] do instinctively the things of the law, these not having the law, become a law unto themselves." This country is filled with people who say Christ, but do something else altogether. I obey the law because the Lord tells me too. The Constitution is important, but it is not a Holy document. It wasn't so great when women wern't allowed to vote or when their were no term limits for presidents allowing for a possible dictatorship.

  • Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Remember are constitution and original laws were based on judea-christianity thus staunchly made availiable mercy."

    We don't go around cutting off fingers of shoplifters or publicly beating those who spray paint trash on buildings. We don't take people out in the streets and stone them (which still goes on in some parts of the world) and we give people trials. Our system isn't perfect but it's way better than much of the world.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Stanjz
    If you won't say anything to contradict God's word to win an election, why would you pull a lever for someone who contradicts Christ word.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    revenge humanly speaking is an act done out of anger, our judicial sytem is set up so that peers uninvolved can make rational decisions. God's revenge is an act of holy justification. plus mercy is built into our system in two ways. The first says you must find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, at sentencing extenuating circumstances are heard along with character witnessing. This is to show mercy on the truly repentet and typically good people who faltered. After court two more acts of mercy are availiable called reduced time for good behaviour and parole. Remember are constitution and original laws were based on judea-christianity thus staunchly made availiable mercy.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:43 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    "A person who rapes and kills three children doesn't get justice just by killing, so why do it?"

    Simple, as much as I don't like it crime in countries where crime is punished...really punished...is far lower than here in the USA. Unfortunately, deturant is the key. This is why there is a hell.

    It's a really simple concept. People who do not respect the law should be made to fear breaking it.

    Also, would you call someone who broke into your house a burgler or a illegal visitor? Would you want the police to remove the person or should they be allowed to move in with you at your expense? This country belongs to those who are citizens. We have the right to determine who is a guest and who is a burgler.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:10 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    And while we are on the topic of Obamas Christianity.

    How many muslims has Obama preached the Gospel to? How many? During the last 23 years of his Christian life has he ever shared the gospel with a Muslim?

    Christ commands us to go out and preach the Good News...
    Who can say that Obama has done this to his family, or to anyone else...

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:59 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Yes, Obama is making inroads in the Christian community.

    He states that he is a Christian.

    Though this may be true, he needs to explain why...

    Why he chose Jesus and not mohammed, when the rest of his family in Kenya are muslims.

    Why he chooses to pray: God our Father and not allah.....

    And if Obama believes that Christ is not the only way to heaven...then he must explain why I should believe he is a Christian, and not just a religious opportunist.

    As Christians we dont need more money, or more programs to run, or be in charge of. More money is not going to influence my vote. The west is in trouble today because it has not been willing to limit the influence of money,and Christians have tended to depend on it far more than they should...

    Honesty and determination to see through that the Truth reigns is what should concern Christians.

    Until Mr. Obama explains the Above, I will not consider voting for him.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    If you believe anything from me, believe this; there is nothing in this world more important to me than my relationship with Jesus Christ. I won't say something to contradict Christ in order to win an election.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Daniel Paul. No problem with enforcing immigration laws, but to say that many elements don't demonize them, is to turn a blind eye. Referring to them as illegal visitors or someting of that nature would be more humane than to refer to them as " illegal aliens." Most of them are coming here because they cannot afford to live or feed their families in Mexico. You didn't address the lack of mercy or lack of consideration for repentance with the criminal justice system, you merely stated " sin needs punishment" which is a given. But to me, society needs to set a better example to the public, than the example our criminals set. Also, justice is incomplete. A person who rapes and kills three children doesn't get justice just by killing, so why do it? Put him away for the rest of his life." Revenge is mine sayeth the Lord, I will pay them back." Romans 12:19

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    let's not forget false prophets will utilize noble deeds in order to further their teachings. no amount of several good deeds allows anyone to perverse the Truth's of God

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:32 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Yes, Obama has done quite a bit of good things. That won't make him a good President. He wants Christian organizations to no longer have the right to hire only Christians. He said so when he clarified his statement about wanting to carry on the Bush 'faith based' programs.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:30 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Love- Republican leadership demonizes those different than them including immigrants, homosexuals and Muslims (not just radicals)"

    Nice try. There is a different beween immigrants and those who cheat their way into the USA by breaking the rules ALL countries have for their boarders.

    Muslims? Nice try again. I haven't heard or seen any 'anti-muslim' actions or even talk from the Republican leadership.

    "Mercy- in favor of capital punishment system that doesn�t consider mercy or repentance"

    When we as members of society are all smart enough to do what we are suppose to do then we wouldn't need jails at all. Unfortunately there is this thing called the sin nature which requires punishment (even the death penalty) to make people stop and think.

    "Charity-tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of the entire country-50 million disabled, 50 million without insurance"

    You got me on this one!!! To whom much is given, much is required. God did not bless the wealthy for them to spend it on ourselves. We have the obligation to take care of each other. Our Constitution says to 'promote the general welfare'...this is NOT our current welfare system but rather to make sure everyone can earn a living wage and have their needs met. "I pay taxes for that" makes me sick. We ARE the government. It is OUR responsibility to help those around us.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Barack Obama could have graduated Harvard Law, gone onto a huge multi-million dollar corporation, sat back in his nice leather chair and watch this country continue the cliche: the rich get richer at the expense of the poor.

    BUT! he didn't. that is the important thing. He went on to work with the poorest of poor. He turned his back to monetary greed and power. I would think evangelicals would be blind not to see good in this man's lifetime actions. I'm proud they are switching over.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:21 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Peace- a party that has an overly aggressive foreign policy that rushes to war"

    Rush to war? No. It was long overdue. The we turned a blind eye to muslim extremism until they attacked us. These extremists want you dead because you live in western culture...they need no other reason.

    The problem is those who do not grasp this because they themselves cannot think that way. It's just to out there for many to grasp. That doesn't change the extremist mindset who wants western culture 'removed' from the planet...period.

    Clinton knew...that's why Hillary has not been the anti-war radical many have wanted her to be.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It all comes back to loving your neighbor as yourself. America has bought into the big house, nice car and condo mentality when there are those in need right in our same town.

    I encourage people when we are on the subject to fix their living so that 1/3 of their net is available for helping other people. I know people who have it as high as 90%! You will never run out of people to help and the rewards are beyond measure.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:05 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    stanjz
    You know, I have seen you write that far more people die of starvation and poverty every year than abortion. I can't seem to find any number for people who die of starvation in this country. I CAN find the numbers of people who die from abortion. Its about 1 million per year (we're up to about 40 million since 1972) in this country alone. Canada about 110,000. 40,000 in Czech Republic, 10,000 in Finland, 150,000 in France, 700,000 reported in India, 100,000 in Italy, 19,000 in Israel, 33,000 in Netherlands, 18,000 in New Zealand, 13,000 in Norway, 400,000 in Philippines, 190,000 in Romania, 1,800,000 in Russia (at one point USSR had 5.5 Million/year). The numbers for those 14 countries come to about 4.5 million per year. There are about 195 countries in this world.

    But even so. Lets pretend you are right, that all the abortions that occur worldwide is less than 10 million per year (that makes the assumption that the higher number is correct, which I do not agree with, given its from UNICEF).

    This country does a lot to support starving people worldwide. Unfortunately, many regimes take the money or food and use it for purposes other than feeding the poor.

    But to suggest that abortion is less deserving of being stopped than hunger is to ignore Christ's teaching suggesting that acting in anger is equivalent to murder. And there is no doubt that abortion is murder. We must strive to stop both things - murder and starving.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_about_abortion_by_country
    http://www.christianliferesources.com/?/library/view.php&articleid=1042

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    My take on revelation is the only people to go pre trib is the 144,000 (rev 14:1-5 )pure men who will fight for Christ at the end of tribulation. Rev 20-4 says those that died in the tribulation without taking the mark will be resserected and rule with him for one thousand years. If it were pre-trib this would not happen! the second resserection calls up everyone. Here I am not sure my understanding is some Believers will give in and take the mark but will be redeemed at this time.

  • Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:56 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    calling something sinful and following what God views things as they are is not demonizing the individual whom you are commanded to love, but condeming a sinful act just like thiefs, rapist, murderers, liar, adulterers, etc all which every person has partake in some way. We are all sinners. Howver we are to fight for the way of the Truth. You criticize tax cuts for donations which I am lower middle class, but use to be able to give generously to organizations that take up God's work regardless if it is a religous or non-religous charity. The Bible says an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, which this country has used to guide us and gauranteed in the constituion when it said excessive punishment for an offense is not allowed. Do some people get it wrong somtimes? Yes. America give the most money in humartitarian aid in the world by our government to fight poverty, and is overwhelmingly supported by republicans and democrats. You criticize charity tax cuts for donation, but alot of poverty is fought by these organizations.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    Republican leadership related to Christianity:
    Love- Republican leadership demonizes those different than them including immigrants, homosexuals and Muslims (not just radicals)
    Peace- a party that has an overly aggressive foreign policy that rushes to war
    Charity-tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of the entire country-50 million disabled, 50 million without insurance
    Mercy- in favor of capital punishment system that doesn’t consider mercy or repentance
    Barack Obama proposed increasing aid to foreign countries to address things like this.
    1. According to UNICEF, 26,500-30,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.”Source 4

    Far more children die from poverty everyday and year than from abortion. That's why Christ has sermon after sermon denouncing greed and storing treasure on earth. Barack was attacked by Republicans who lied again by saying he wants to raise everyone's taxes when it was only the wealthiest individuals taxes he proposed to raise and only by a few percentage points.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I have been brought up as a pre-trib. But in my desire to know the truth (other than just accept what tradition may present), I find myself, at this time, to be in a position of "non-affiliated". LOL. If there is a pre-trib then there is a distinction between the "catching up of the saints" and the return of Jesus. Those events are two totally separate events.
    I have heard arguments from each viewpoint, even the teaching of non-rapture. Each present a convincing argument.
    I am ready (I pray) for whatever may happen. If I am ready to go through the tribulation, then I am ready if He decides to take us first. My human side would much rather skip tribulation and persecution. LOL. But as God sees fit, I pray His strength to endure to the end.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, ya - I think it is possible that a Pre-Trib Rapture does not 'necessarily' involve Christ coming to the earth to 'catch' us up.

    But what I was pointing out in the previous comment is that infact a lot of Fundamentalists (I'm not using the term in a derogetory way - which a lot of people do) hold to the teaching that Christ has to come down to earth to 'catch' the believers up (in Pre-Trib thought) because Satan is 'in the air' (cf. Eph 2:2), so Christ must 'chuaffer' us through 'enemy' territory.......

    Again, 2 camps of Pre-Trib thought: 1. one of which (you hold to) which is Christ calling the saints out of the earth. 2. Christ comes to earth to take the saints out of the earth (because of the 'enemy' territory).

    I think the second view conflicts with Scriptures on this point (namely they have to juggle with three comings of Christ). While the first view does not necessarily conflict with Scripture on this point.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    matthew, I think the diiference is that in the Rapture Christ will call His Church out as opposed to take His Church out, the difference being that He does not come to the earth physically and therefore that does count as a coming to earth and there would still only be two comings of Chrsit to earth. Like I said that's why even though I lean toward the pre side of the discussion I don't spend much time parking in the Book of Revelation.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You could be right on that point. I just thought it was an interesting (although not necessarily logically valid) point that the Catholics bring up. Although a lot of Fundamentalists do think Christ will return to 'catch' up the Church, because Satan's dominion is in 'the air', so Christ needs to 'chauffer' us through 'enemy' territory. In this case, it does seem that (according to a lot of Fundi's) there is three comings - which doesn't really square with Scriptures.

    Catholics are Amillenialists - because Augustine was. So they have their theology - and that's it. Unfortunately, a lot of their theology is incredibly poor (e.g. prayer offered to Mary, and other saints).

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Curious, but how would pre-trib necesaarily mean a coming of Christ. For this event to take place it does not mean Christ has to be present. His power does not require this.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet: Just out of curiousity, are you a: (pre/post-Trib) Premillenialist, or an Amillenialist?

    I would consider myself Post-Trib Premillenialist, although I also find Amillenialism attractive.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Of course it can symbolize honour. 10 crowns, the crown of many dominions/nations. Honour of saints, or the honour that the AC will have.

    Anways, getting into details of prophecy can be tricky and meticulous (and most of the time wrong). Let's just wait and see what happens (with a rough sketch in our minds of what should happen).

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Well, like I said, I can't prove it. That's just what I get from the text 'bent on conquest.' I'm willing to admit I could be wrong.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Read Matthew 24:24 Foe there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

  • Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:43 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    In my experience, future prophecy in the Bible is Gods way of showing us we really don't understand all we think we do. After all, Proverbs says a wise man sees a problem from afar and seeks to avoid it. If we understood prophesys before it happened...well I doubt we'd seek to avoid it either way no would we?

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