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Society|Tue, Jul. 08 2008 05:31 PM EDT

Calif. Gay 'Marriage' Opponents Pick Mobilizing Over Protesting

By Eric Young|Christian Post Reporter

LOS ANGELES – Up to 175,000 people took part in Los Angeles’ annual gay pride parade in West Hollywood Sunday, capping three days of flamboyant celebration.

Among those honored at this year’s event were Robin Tyler and Troy Perry, two plaintiffs in the lawsuit that led to last month's hotly contested Supreme Court ruling which made California the second state in the nation to legalize same-sex “marriage.”

As expected, only a few protestors were present throughout the parade, which has been held in Los Angeles every year since 1970, except for 1973, when infighting over crude displays the previous two years left the organizers in disarray. Pro-family advocates have been mindful of the liberal bias of most secular news agencies and their tendency to demonize those with conservative or biblical views.

"The major media would love to see us engage in fierce protests and hostile demonstrations of outrage against the licensing of same-sex 'marriages,'" Ronald Prentice, chairman of the ProtectMarriage.com coalition, told The Associated Press in an interview last month.

He pointed out, however, that the "battle is not against the same-sex couples who are pursuing the opportunity to `marry' granted them by the activist judges on the California Supreme Court."

Instead of platforms such as the L.A. Gay Pride Parade, pro-family advocates are taking their message to where it matters most – conservative California voters.

Throughout California, efforts are being made to help amplify the concerns of more than half of Californians who reject the state Supreme Court's decision to allow same-sex “marriages” and back the proposed constitutional amendment to protect marriage.

According to a recent Los Angeles Times/KTLA poll, 29 percent of Californians surveyed strongly approved the Supreme Court’s decision while 12 percent somewhat approved. On the other side, 42 percent of Californians surveyed strongly disapproved of the decision while 10 percent somewhat disapproved.

And pastors and their churches are playing a very significant role in rallying Californians to make a difference in November.

“[T]he Church cannot approve of redefining marriage, which has a unique place in God’s creation, joining a man and a woman in a committed relationship in order to nurture and support the new life for which marriage is intended,” bishops of the Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles had expressed in a statement last month.

“The meaning of marriage is deeply rooted in history and culture, and has been shaped considerably by Christian tradition,” they said. “Its meaning is given, not constructed.

“‘When marriage is redefined so as to make other relationships equivalent to it, the institution of marriage is devalued and further weakened,’” the bishops stated, citing a 2003 document on marriage and same-sex unions issued by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

While some religious leaders, particularly Catholics, were involved in passing Proposition 22, the 2000 initiative that defined marriage as between a man and a woman, strategists predicted a much greater involvement by evangelical churches in this election.

"We are working with all the churches who are willing to work with us," Frank Schubert, the campaign manager for the initiative, told the L.A. Times last month. "It's woven together to form what we hope will be the largest grassroots campaign in California history."

According to the Times, political analyst Tony Quinn said the involvement of the pastors could be significant, especially because many conservatives are relatively disengaged by the election this year.

"This ... could bring people to the polls that would not otherwise vote. The churches can do that," he said.

Conservative leaders are hoping for a massive Christian outpouring of support for the proposed amendment – one that will dwarf the crowds that took to the streets of West Hollywood over the weekend.

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  • Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer,
    Yeah, that comment was supposed to be tongue in cheek. LOL.

  • Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet, your response to my fair fight idea, but I did think your response was funny, but I'm thinking kama thought we were fighting, but I guess we'll never know!

  • Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    These last couple posts - this is what I'm talking about. I do not want to become *that* kind of Christian, the kind who who harbors self-righteousness then (ironically) justifies it with Bible quotes. God gave me a conscience for a reason, and I intend to use it. Goodbye folks, this forum is not for me.

  • Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer,
    To which post are you refering?

  • Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet, what you talking about!!!!

  • Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I think the Christian is obliged to point out sin, particularly in Christians. We need to help each other recognize it and then help them to come out of it. If they fail to recognize the sin or admit it and ultimately fail to repent, We need to separate from them them until such time as they repent.

    Jesus did not say to not judge, he said to not be a hypocrite. If you judge, you will be judged by the same standard. We are to be merciful, and not consider others less or more than ourselves, but we are to judge between right and wrong. Matthew 7:1-5. Jesus said we are to judge what is right or wrong, Luke 12:57. In fact, Jesus said to call sinners on their behavior:

    Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

    Paul said to not be a hypocrite, Romans 2:1.

    But we are to discern what is right and wrong and avoid wrong.

    Romans 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

    1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

    So Christians should judge their own actions first and deal with sin in their own lives. But we are to judge the sins of those inside the church. Even so, this does not mean we are to judge someone as being better or worse than ourselves. If someone outside the church does bad things I still have the responsibility to judge whether that thing is good or bad. Whether someone does something good or bad does not necessarily indicate a person is good or bad. Judging something to be a sin is a good thing. Judging someone is not. There is a distinct difference that people who are doing things that others call wrong do not make.

  • Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I Corinthians 6:1-2

    "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

    2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? "

  • Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    A wise man said "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you obviously aren't doing it right."

  • Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    kama, thanks for the clarification. I do enjoy a good fight as long as everybody agrees to fight fair. I agree that some who come to site on both sides can get very mean spirited. I know on several occassions I have been guilty myself. I tend to get very intense on some issues and sometimes post without thinking. But to me this is a good forum to discuss differing points of view on subjects. I personally have learned much about both sides of various issues and appreciate the fact that there is a place where I can come and be heard. I've enjoyed our exchanges on different issues and I do agree we need to be always sensitive to the feelings of others and present our differences of opinions in a way that speaks to the issue and does not discount the person making the opposite point of view.

  • Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    My refernces to fighting stem from the original post here that said "the battle cry has sounded" and "onward Christian soldiers." Those have stuck with me, and not in a pleasant way.

    The way I was raised, the Christian principles learned throughout my life are for my guidance in the way I conduct myself, and where I turn when I need strength or courage. Neither my parents nor my priest have ever advocated evaluating others' lives and becoming a "Christian soldier" to "fight" people I personally deem to have sinned.

    The way I was taught, it is not for me to judge. God is our only judge.

    Here on this site people are advocating to fight others in the name of God (which I think is wrong) and seem to be more interested in the sins of others than the sins of themselves. The tone is disturbing. It is reminiscent of the extremists who become suicide bombers and think they're doing it for the glory of God. That's what I meant with my martyrdom comment. How can one person fighting another so vehemently over religious disagreements possibly be for the glory of God? And how are the attitudes of some of the people on this blog any different than other religious extremists in the world? I see little difference.

    These attitudes are nothing like the Chrstians I have always known as my friends and family, nor what I ever want to become myself. I just can't believe I stumbled on to a website where people harbor these attitudes. I didn't realize the Christian Post was that kind of publication.

  • Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I volunteered and enlisted myself in the military as soon as I was 17. God bless our troops who fought for our right to serve God without fear.

  • Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Its not just patriotism. The Centurion was not told to leave the service when he showed faith (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 7:1-10 - especially Acts 10).

    God choses rulers and gives them the responsibility to manage and protect the people under his charge (Romans 13:1-7). David was a man after God's own heart who did everything God wanted (Acts 13:22), and still he did terrible things (2 Samuel 11) that God called sin (2 Samuel 12). None of us are perfect.

    Paul exercised his rights as a citizen (Acts 22:23-30). We have the responsibility to be good citizens (Romans 13), as such, we should pray (Ephesians 6:18), and become who God wants us to be (Collossians 3:1-17; 1 Timothy 4:6-8). Some of us need to be fighters for our country - be it with the police or with the military.

    You are right in that or attitudes must not be hate filled. But, we ARE to be sincere in our love, hate what is evil, and cling to what is good (Romans 12:9).

  • Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    kama, by fighting do you mean verbally disagreeing or actual physical fighting? Because you appeared to say you had a hard time with Christians being soldiers which sounded like you didn't believe Christians should be in the military. And please help me understand what you mean by marytrdom being un-Christian, thanks?

  • Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, I think you misunderstand me. I lack nothing in the patriotism department, and I'm sure the same can be said of you. It's not fighting that I object to. I would fight for my freedom and for yours without hesitation. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with the military. My objection is to this notion that Christian civilians should battle fellow civilians who disagree, and think God commands it. That smells of self-righteousness and martyrdom and to me is very un-Christian.

  • Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    kama, then thank God you live in a country with men and women who are willing to join the military and fight for and defend their country in order to protect your freedom so you can choose not to go into the military. May I suggest your buy or rent the movie "Sgt. York" with Gary Cooper, it sounds to me you could use a good dose of good old American patriotism.

  • Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Sorry but this idea of Christians as soldiers and fighting turns my stomach. When we start saying that we can do anything or hold any ill feelings toward others simply by saying we do it in God's name, then we are no better than the Taliban or al Qaeda. Substitute the word God with Allah and you sound like the fanatic extremists wreaking havoc around the world. I do not accept that I must do this to be a good Christian. Period.

  • Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    " just how DO you nicely and kindly drive people out of the temple with a whip?"

    made me laugh! SO SO SO TRUE!

    Christ had compassion, but still spoke truth.

  • Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "believer, the reason I think it's less ok for Christians to oppose gay marriage laws is because to do so requires actively fighting against people whose primary motivation seems to be sharing a life of love together, and that just seems wrong to me. I don't want to be a fighting Christian I want to be a loving and unerstanding Christian."

    I agree to a point. However, Jesus was the first fighting Christian! Who stated God's morals over and over in discussions with people. I have known some great gay people, alchoholics, drug addicts, co-dependants, and other types of sinners (which btw includes everyone now doesn't it!). Still, it is important for you to love them enought to tell them the truth which can keep them from harm now and/or in the future. It is unloving for someone to simply let someone do something which is harmful to them. For example (note the word example here), as a parent it is not loving to allow my child to simply touch the stove. I should first teach and warn. Only the very stubborn or unloved get burned by the hot stove.

    One of my favorite points I've come in contact with is just how DO you nicely and kindly drive people out of the temple with a whip?

    If you don't stand for your Christianity, your Christianity doesn't stand.

  • Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "you don't think it's terribly offensive to call a peaceful victimless gay relationship 'sinful?' "

    Matthew 5:11-14 Then His disciples came and said to Him "Do You know that the Parisees were offended when they heard this saying?" But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

    You're welcome to be terribly offended. Jesus offended those who went against His Bible all the time. He's who you are truely offended by lina.

  • Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Lina, is offensive to call pedophilia between a man and a boy who likes it sinful? Just because someone likes it does not mean it is not bad or harmful or approved by God.

  • Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    lina, based on what I believe God teaches about it in the Bible what else can I call it, but if you'll notice I don't have any problem calling and acknowledging myself as a sinner either. But sometimes sharing a truth with someone can be offensive, if someone had not told me I was a sinner and separated from God as a result of that sin, I never would have recognized my need to become a Christian. To offend simply for the sake of offending is one thing, but to offend as the result of sharing a truth in order to help another person is totally different even if intially that person does not see it. I offended my son when I had to discipline him, but hopefully he saw and most times I believe he did see that I was doing it for his benefit and not simply to offend him.

  • lina »
    Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer - you don't think it's terribly offensive to call a peaceful victimless gay relationship "sinful?"

  • Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    kama, thanks for your honesty and understanding and I'll look into that book. I also would recommend a video that helped me a lot for you to consider viewing, "On Wings Like Eagles". Be blessed as you serve Him and look forward to posting with you down the road, believer.

  • Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, I too am thoroughly enjoying the discussion. It's a difficult road for me to travel and I appreciate the opportunity to share the experience with others. I think I really understand your dilemma if I may call it that. One thing that might help you (it helped me) is a documentary called "For The Bible Tells Me So" about homosexuality and the Bible. It came out last year I think, and is readily available. There are facts and viewpoints that brought me much needed clarity. Maybe you can check that out sometime.

    Obedience to God can be difficult at times when two things seem to conflict with each other. If it is of any comfort, remember that God knows what is in our hearts. If what we do is truly driven by our intention to serve Him and nothing else, He will always know that.

  • Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:45 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    kama, before I forget I have been enjoying our conversation immensely and I truly do appreciate where you are coming from in this discussion, be blessed believer.

  • Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:37 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    kama, I too have known some super people who are homosexuals and I can say I truly enjoyed their company and never once did any of them ever try to force their lifestyle on me and vice-versa, we simply agreed to disagree on this issue. Plus, unlike some Christians I believe there are homosexuals who are genuinely born-again believers. And even in blogging I've met some posters for lack of a better term who are homosexuals who seem like good people who if I had the opportunity would probably enjoy meeting and spending time with. This is why this is such a difficult issue for me to confront because as much as I appreciate these people, the God I serve, He too does not condemn them but He is adamantly opposed to the sexual practices of their lifestyle. And as much as I would not want to personally offend any of them I would even more so not want to offend my God who sent His only Son to die for me, so as I said earlier I am compelled by my love for Him to oppose any laws that would allow or condone practices that He calls sin. My deisre is to do that in a way that will as little as possible offend any, but show my obedience to God.

  • Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:35 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    believer, I understand. Your desire to help others see their sins and repent for them is commendable. This is one issue, however, where the sinners in question A)firmly do not believe they are sinning at all and will never believe so, and B)are breaking no civil laws by being gay. We may disagree, but in that disagreement we are not the ones to settle it or decide who is right. That we must leave to God. Otherwise we are in fact judging, and I would say judging beyond our right and into what only God should be judging. In my own life I am more and more inclined to let it go. It is harder and harder for me to see gays as sinners when their is no "victim" in this supposed sin. I really do wonder if maybe those of us who see gays as inherently sinning are not somehwat mistaken. This has happened before in history. In the end, there are so many bigger problems to face in our world than two people in love (in itself a beautiful thing!) who happen to be of the same gender. When I focus my attention on my own life and sins I am left with more peace, so I think it is the right thing to do.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:34 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    kama, with regards to confronting sin, God clearly teaches in His Word that if we see a person who is willfully sinning we are to go to that person and lovingly confront them with their sin. This is not for the purpose of either judging or condemning but to restore them to a right relationship with God through Christ. We do it because we are concerned about not only the physical well-being of the person but the spiritual well-being as well. If a person is willfully sinning they can not be in a growing intimate relationship with God. Plus we also know there are serious consequences to sin and we don't want to see them have to face those consequences which not only impact them but their family and friends as well as their church if these sins are not confronted and repented of.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    kama, you're right this is an issue where it is hard to condemn the behavior without appearing to condemn the person doing the behavior. But as far as the issue of opposing same-sex marriage/unions I do believe there is a civil way to do it. I think that both sides unfortunately have their versions of Fred Phelps who use this opportunity to spew hate and ridicule rather then share their concern for why they are either for or against the passing of these laws. So while I agree we need to consider the feelings of those who will be impacted should these laws pass or fail, we should all be allowed to voice our opinions as well, but do it in a way that is least offensive to all concerned parties.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:18 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    believer, one last thing: I think I am also uncomfortable with the idea of attacking the sins of others in general. That's not our job, to judge sin or sinner. That is God's job. I'd be much happier if we could all focus on our own sins, our own lives, on our redemption, and on teaching our children; and leave the lives and sins of others to them and to God.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:12 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    believer, the reason I think it's less ok for Christians to oppose gay marriage laws is because to do so requires actively fighting against people whose primary motivation seems to be sharing a life of love together, and that just seems wrong to me. I don't want to be a fighting Christian I want to be a loving and unerstanding Christian.

    I understand your view, I really do. But this issue seems like one that too many of us are getting too upset about. If the core of our resistence truly comes down to, as you say, the sexual practices of gay people then I am even more convinced we're getting off track. What about the ones who don't have sex? Are those couples ok? I never would consider the sexual practices of someone else, for any reason, why should I be doing that with gays?

    Who someone has sex with is such a teeny tiny part of who that person is in the job, town, and life. Gosh, who cares?

    My neighbors are truly good people. They have no intention of changing anyone's church doctrine anywhere. They just want a legal marriage, not a religious marriage. I think we need to look at those two things separately. Our country's laws dealing with inheritence, Social Security, etc. are tied to legal marriage, even for atheists. Extending that legality to couples of the same gender really doesn't seem like such a big deal to me, even though it's something I personally do not understand.

    To "paulbenedict," I don't think tarnishing the institution of marriage is really what's on your mind, my friend. It's been pretty tarnished by the rest of us for a long time, sad to say. And you're wrong, you might not like it but the law is the law and legally those gay couples out in CA as well as MA are legally married. But the great news is that does not need to affect you, your church, your religion, or what marriage means to you in any way.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:04 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    It is such an amazement the "christians" are so "un-Christ-like". If we are so concerned with biblical passage, and protecting Marriage, why are we, as a whole,not doing more to PROTECT marriage?? When the divorce rate is 41-62%, depending upon who u believe, and domestic violence up @ an all time high. We should be removing the log in our eyes, before trying to remove the twig in others. Let's start by making it hard to get Married in the first place, almost impossible to get divorced, and heavy jail/punishment for infidelity, domestic violence, and get rid of other things that truly make a mockery of marriage, like the drive-thru chapels in Las Vegas,,no one takes marriage seriously anymore. Remember,,,"what God has joined, let no man put asunder!"

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:24 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "the state of california didnt make gay marriage legal. the supreme court threw out the law banning gay marriage said it is now ok."

    Ummm, actually the California State Legislature approved two gay marriage bills and sent both of them to the Governor. The Governor vetoed both of these bills saying "its for the courts to decide". Well the courts have made their decision. Now that the CA Supreme court has made this decision it will be less stressful for other state courts to make the same decision. You watch, the next state to probably legalize gay marriage will probably be Iowa. Just imagine that!

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:04 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 6

    This article really ministered to my heart. It is easy to get angry about the challenge. I applaud the believing and peaceful prayer evident in this effort. It is very Godly.

    I do want to add that in the public eye, and in the minds of the young especially, the relationship of marriage might be tarnished by these actions of the Supreme Court. However, it is also true that the government of California is harmed because it has failed to guarantee 'the right to join in marriage.' Our marriage licenses say "Party A" and "Party B" not "husband" and "wife." This is not just odd wording. The very core of the Court's finding redefines marriage out of California law. Since same sex couples cannot really get married, there can no longer be marriage. Its really hard to tell what the Court now calls marriage, but the general effect will be to use the force of government to force people to tell lies. Certainly, all government employees will have to say that folks who are not married are married. Policemen will have to lie. Firemen will have to tell lies. Teachers will have to tell lies to little children.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    kama, and you are correct it is never right to use God's Word or our spiritual beliefs as ammo to attack other people. My aim, no pun intended, is to oppose practices which I believe violate the Word of God, to attack the sin and not the sinner, of whom I too am one.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    kama, it isn't the loving relationship that I believe the Word of God opposes it is the sexual practices of the homosexual practices that God is opposed to in His Word. But why is it okay for those who believe the Bible is not opposed to this lifestyle to support the passage of same-sex marriage/union laws, but not okay for those who believe the Word of God opposes this sexual lifestyle to oppose the passing of these laws?

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:11 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    To "believer," when you speak of being "compelled to join God in opposing laws that would allow or condone that sinful practice" you are showing the huge flaw in your reasoning. Did God tell you personally that He opposes this law? No, He did not. That is what you believe, your interpretation, which is something different. There are many religious scholars, ministers, rabbis, priests and so on (my own being one of them) who disagree with that particular Bible interpretation. How can it make sense to you that you feel compelled to fight against a loving relationship and do it in God's name? Please, think about that. I know you mean well but I think you are straying into dangerous territory much the same as religious extremists around the world. Our religion should be the source of our compassion, love, and personal strength...not the source of our ammo against fellow human beings who are different from us.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:32 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    chino, but the majority opinion taking precedence over God's Will caused the people of Israel to spend 40 years in the Wilderness when they could and should have been moving into and possessing the Promised Land. And if I as a Christian believe that God's Word teaches that the sexual practices of the homosexual lifestyle is a sin, then I am compelled to join God in opposing laws that would allow or condone that sinful practice. But at the same time that view in no way gives me the right to disrespect or ridicule those who participate in that lifestyle.

  • igh »
    Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:32 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    the state of california didnt make gay marriage legal. the supreme court threw out the law banning gay marriage said it is now ok. not the same thing. was a bad call.
    so by the same misuse of power if a ban on gay marriage is approved and the california constitution is amended, will the US supreme court rule it unconstitutional and therefore make it a california amendment to approve gay marriage? hmmm its the way satan does things.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:43 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    chino, Abraham was not a Christian and he was wrong to commit adultery with Hagar. No where in the Bible is polygamy approved by God. In fact we read that polygamy caused people such as David and Jacob many marital and family problems. And yes if Abraham were a member of a Bible believing, teaching, and living church he would be confronted about his sin the same way Nathan confronted David about his sin.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:31 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    One more thing, open your Bibles and ask yourselves: did Abraham, Jacob, David, and Solomon hold marriage to mean the same thing as it does to us today? They were polygamists all. To hear Christians talk about "traditional marriage" as if it's always been between one man and one woman is a real shame, considering that it sounds like you think we've got the right to call Abraham to repentance for his choices, for his culture, for a culture that I thought Christians had more respect for than to go hiding it away and pretending that things have always been exactly as they are now today in the good ol' USofA.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:21 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    Do you think the folks behind Proposition 8 really care one way or the other about gay marriage?

    Here's the line that jumped out at me in this story:

    "This ... could bring people to the polls that would not otherwise vote. The churches can do that."

    Kind of says it all, don't it?

    So, when are the churches gonna get back into the business of making this world a better place, and out of the business of propping up politicos who just wanna take advantage of the power your numbers can give them?

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    lina, you're missing my point or avoiding my point. Yes, love is a universal truth among all living creatures, but you can only prove that creatures experience love both in the giving and the receiving of it. But you can't see love only the expressions of love. And yet there is no doubt that it does exist. The same is true with God, a person can not come to know God until that person chooses to experience God. We can see the evidence that there is a God, but like love we can not scientifically prove that God exists. At some point and time faith/trust must enter into the equation. And the same is true with love. At some point and time faith/trust must come into the equation for us to both believe in and experience real love. So a person not believing in God is a matter of choosing not to consider the possibility of His existence and/or lacking the faith/trust to believe in Him. But like love those two choices do not negate the fact that love and God both exist and both are very real.

  • Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Ah, dongard pulled a funny!! Good one dongard, that was cute.

    Lina (our prozac ridden Satanist)

    Are you into bestiality??

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    lina, needless to say my response to you got wiped out. Yes I know there is research being done with regards to love, but only with regards to the effects of love and perhaps the forms of love. But even though we know love is real there is no scientific way to prove love exists or to replicate love and yet we don't question the fact that love exists. Based on that could the same be not said of the existence of God? As for evolution, like you I believe that species can adapt to their environment, where we differ is I believe that God built that into every species. The only question I have is did He it do before or after man fell into sin, but that is simply a matter of curiousity on my part. What I do not believe is that species have the ability to evolve into another species. That's why I say I believe in micro-evolution and not macro-evolution. And even though I know my posts sometimes frustrate I do enjoy conversing with you as well. Have a good night and I'll hopefully check your posts in the morning, believer

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:09 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Christian soldiers? What?? Doesn’t that sound kind of Talibanish? I’m a good Christian and I am getting tired of “fighting” things like gay marriage. My neighbors are a gay couple who have been together for almost 13 years. They are good people, good citizens and they want to get married at City Hall. I wish them happiness—why shouldn’t I? Atheists get married and we don’t “fight” them. Do we really not have bigger fish to fry? People are starving, homeless, and in need. I’m sorry but my conscience will not let me harbor such feelings toward people like my neighbors who are in love and want to share their life together. It will never make sense to me to “fight” people in the name of God.

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:26 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    that's right we have been planning this for thousands of years and passing it on to our children, hmm wait how's that.....

  • Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:24 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 6

    The battle cry has sounded. If we as Christians don't get off out sorry ______ than the gay agenda will not stop there. They will be energized like there's no tomorrow. We're not given a spirit timidness, but of power but it's only good if it's exercised. Let's go and get'm.

    You can do by not stopping off at a McDonalds either. Go to www.boycottmcdonalds.com and find out why!

    Onward Christian Soldiers

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