Scholars Downplay Tablet Debate on Messiah, Resurrection

By Katherine T. Phan|Christian Post Reporter

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Professor Lawrence Schiffman, professor of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at New York University, said the text was being restored to "say something which it may or may not say." He acknowledged that Jesus was a "victim of sensationalism all the time" since a single part of the text was being used to create a "media experience."

Media Research Institute, a media watchdog, also red-flagged the story angle many newspapers sold on the implications of Knohl's interpretation on the basic tenet of Christianity.

"Here we go again. Another relic pops up of questionable authenticity that one or two experts is saying casts doubts on the unique claims of Christian orthodoxy," Ken Shepherd wrote on the watchdog's related Web site called News Busters.

"What's more, it's laughable on its face that one obscure, questionably-interpreted transcript of an alleged angelic annunciation has anything on the public witness of the early church, which based its arguments for the resurrection of Christ from first-hand eyewitness accounts of some 500 people of the risen Jesus and Hebrew scriptures on the person and work of the Messiah," he added.

And even though Time magazine ran its story under a sensational headline "Was Jesus' Resurrection a Sequel?" the writers admit that "such a contentious reading of the 87-line tablet depends on creative interpretation of a smudged passage, making it the latest entry in the woulda/coulda/shoulda category of possible New Testament artifacts; they are useful to prove less-spectacular points and to stir discussion on the big ones, but probably not to settle them nor shake anyone's faith."

In what may not come as a surprise, Knohl is the same professor who thought the caves surrounding the site of the "Jesus family tomb" should be excavated for more research when most experts had already dismissed and rejected that the ossuaries had anything to do with the historical Jesus.

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believer »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:52 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

mart, please go a little deeper with your view of Jesus as Lord, because if you mean did Jesus Christ exist as a human being that has pretty well been historically proven, but if you mean proving Jesus is God then I agree with you 110%. It's just too bad more Christians don't allow Him to be the Lord of their life!
Prophet »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:29 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

marte,
Amen. But apologetics is sometimes necessary. 1st Peter 3:15 says But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you....
We must preach the Gospel untainted and boldly, but also be ready to give reason for our belief.
mathetes »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:11 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Prophet,
Thanks for giving the McDowell quote. I had said as much to eeee last night, but he never addressed it. Since he does not seem to be active today, we can hope he is reading McDowell and Stoebel and acquainting himself with the evidence. Let pray that he is and God's Spirit moves in His heart as He did in Stroebel's.
marteblackmon »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:28 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

The Holy Spirit is the only Person who can prove the existance of Jesus as Lord. It is not a matter of personal debate. Either you chose to believe, or you don't. Why do we continue to think man can possible prove God?
Prophet »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:13 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Someone commented that Israel is an atheistic nation. Hmmm...doesn't seem that way to me. Sure there are atheists there. There are atheists everywhere. But just because atheists exist, doesn't make a country atheistic
Prophet »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:11 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

eeee,
The life of Christ can't possibly be made up.

"And it was not only friendly eyewitnesses that the early preachers had to reckon with. There were others less well disposed who were also conversant with the main facts of the ministry and death of Jesus. The disciples could not afford to risk inaccuracies (not to mention willful manipulation of the facts), which would at once be exposed by those who would be only too glad to do so. Had there been any tendency to depart from the facts in any material respect, the possible presence of hostile witnesses in the audience would have served as a further corrective." Josh McDowell
Prophet »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:08 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Once again, Christianity is under fire. And once again the critics are left looking like fools.

Check out this news bit

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=16549

Jews are prepping their priests for the rebuilding of the temple and the "first" coming of the Messiah.

So far things are going according to the Bible
mathetes »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:29 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hey, Prophet, glad the night shift got here. I'm off. Yes, he's gone from cc to dddd to eeee, mellowing somewhat each time. Passez un bon temps, mes amis!
earalav »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:28 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

eeeee or ddddd,

You say that you used to be a Christian. I believe you, because your hatred for Christianity could only come from someone who is running from the truth that they already know. I do not know what happened to you that caused you to become so disillusioned with the truth, but it must have been pretty bad to have caused you to reject God so utterly. There is plenty of evidence all around you, but in your current state, you simply can't see it. I hope that someday, whoever wronged you will make it right and that you will be able to open your eyes to the truth once more.
Prophet »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:18 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I see that cccccc is back. He seems more mellow this time.
mathetes »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:01 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

And eeee, when I say consequences, I was not referring to hell. Refusing to grant others the courtesies you expect for yourself will only result in posters treating you as an irrelevant poseur. I hope you will look at the evidence suggested below; then we can discuss what you think about it.
eeee »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:00 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

The only evidence I have ever heard of for the Resurrection are witnesses. Witnesses who have been dead a long time. Witnesses who may have been invented. Witnesses who lived at a time when people were willing to believe any nonsense.

There's a big difference between beliefs in supernatural magic and the acceptance of proven scientific facts.

People accept scientific facts because they have REAL evidence. People believe in miracles not because of some flimsy evidence. They believe in miracles because when they were small gullible children they were taught that faith is a virtue. Faith means believing in things that have no evidence, like the Resurrection, heaven, hell, Jesus, God. Faith is not a virtue at all. Faith is an excuse to believe what you want to believe, no matter how impossible and disgusting it is.
mathetes »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:51 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

eeee,
"The movies are made up stories, just like your entire Bible."
Obviously you never looked at the evidence which supports the rest of the Bible either. Evidence is evidence - why should anyone look at your evidence if you're unwilling to look at ours? (Which, BTW, I have done; remember my discussion of Acanthostega + Tiktaalik with agentorangex?) So you can look at the hard evidence suggested, or you can keep making blind claims ignoring said evidence. The choice (+ the consequences of that choice) are yours.
eeee »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:32 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

"do you believe everything you see in the movies?"

I enjoy zombie movies, including the Night of the Living Dead.

Zombies like to eat brains. The only way to eliminate zombies is shooting them in the head, or burning them with fire.

Zombies are fictional, just like the story about Jesus returning to life. The movies are made up stories, just like your entire Bible.

There's a big difference between your wanting me to study evidence for a childish disgusting belief in a supernatural zombie, and my suggestion that creationists should study evidence for a natural process that's accepted by virtually all biologists.

Nobody wants to talk about my idea that they're insulting the God they believe in, when they claim He performs cheap and repulsive magic tricks like the Resurrection on an insignificant planet in the middle of nowhere.

"However, they know enough now to say with great confidence that if conditions are right, life can develop on its own."

"Now who believes in unsubstantiated myths!!"

Instead of complaining about the research that's been done to explain the development of the first living cells, why don't you do look it up and learn about it. This is another problem Christians have. They would rather waste their time praying than learning about modern science.
mathetes »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:18 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

cc/dd/ee,

Also, you keep talking about zombies - do you believe everything you see in the movies? How scientific is that?
mathetes »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:09 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

cc/dd/ee,

You trashed the Bible (as you often do), but you obviously have not reviewed the evidence outside the Bible as has been suggested. And you always fault Christians for not looking at the evidence for evolution. When one does the same thing one accuses others of doing = hypocrite.

RE: science + the origin of life:
"However, they know enough now to say with great confidence that if conditions are right, life can develop on its own."
Now who believes in unsubstantiated myths!!
eeee »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:08 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

You're talking about events that occurred 20 centuries ago. How can you be sure any of it is true if we can't even be sure about the accuracy of the news in today's newspaper?

Modern medicine saves lives, sometimes bringing back people from the brink of death. It's the skill of doctors, not supernatural magic, that saves these people. It's ridiculous to compare that to the revival of a 3 day old cadaver.

I think you missed the part I wrote about the universe not being here for the existence of the human species. That's the biggest problem Christians have. They don't realize how totally insignificant our planet is. If our entire solar system disappeared tomorrow, that would be equivalent to one grain of sand disappearing from the Sahara Desert. That's how insignificant our planet and our species is. It's nuts to think God would waste His time performing cheap magic tricks here, like raising Jesus from the dead. Could an all-powerful supernatural magician do it? I suppose so if you want to pretend a powerful magic man exists. But it's crazy and insulting to think he would do anything as disgusting as creating zombies from stinking dead bodies.
Daniel Paul »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:33 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

ccccc or eeee? Who can tell the difference?

"They blindly accept every Christian belief without exception, and no matter how improbable it is."

Seeing as you're 'new' here you haven't read any of my posts which say that Jesus has no desire of blind faith. In fact, he referred to the Jewish leaders as 'blind' for a reason. "Blind guides" & "blind fools". He spoke of the blind leading the blind.

"Anyone can research what happens to dead human after 3 days in the ground."

His body wasn't in such hot shape when it went it. He'd been beaten with a 'cat of 9 tails' which was a 9 string whip with shards tied to the end. Still, the condition of the body in and of itself doesn't mean God didn't perform a miricle.

"which is the only way to describe converting a corpse into a living person."

First, the dictionary defines a corpse as a body, human or animal, dead or alive as a primary def. It also can just mean a dead body. My wife works in a CVIVU (open-heart recovery). I hear about corpses being changed into a living person from time to time!

John 20:17 says "do not cling yo Me, for I have not yet ascened to My Father" meaning there was a transformation.

"it's crazy to think we are the only intelligent species in the universe."

The Bible talks about other creatures around the throne praising God. Exactly where did they come from? Do I believe in life on other planets? I have enough trouble with what's going on here!!!!

"Scientists don't have answers for everything and they never will. "

Thank you!!!!!
Daniel Paul »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:15 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

"Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence, but there is no real evidence for any of these fantastic claims."

Here's the problem...there are accounts in non-Christian text about the stir. Also, why didn't the Romans just say...here's the body...we've been guarding it and the whole thing would have make Roman text (the existance of Jesus did). It's interesting they made NO effort to 'prove' Jesus didn't rise from the dead. They just went around killing Christians. It would have been so simple. Here's their problem. They were guarding the grave and Jesus rose. They had no body. It wasn't possible for anyone to have taken it being so heavily guarded. So, in short, Christianity questioned the competence of the Roman guards. Again, why didn't they just show off the body? Too many questions....

Not to mention the fact that if the body had disappeared the Romans guarding it would have been executed. The Bible says there was way more Romans guarding the grave than there were followers. Wouldn't that have been quite a clash...? No mention in Roman history or anywhere else.

Read 'More Than a Carpenter' and "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" parts I & II.
eeee »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:35 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

If I convince only one reader the Resurrection was a hoax, I have saved one life from being totally wasted. I know what a terrible disease Christianity is, because I was a victim of this mental illness myself.

A big problem Christians have is they never have an original thought. They blindly accept every Christian belief without exception, and no matter how improbable it is. Instead of thinking for themselves, they let an ancient book and their preachers do their thinking for them.

I would like to list some problems with the Resurrection. The first one on the list should be enough, but I'll list other reasons for why the Resurrection has to be a myth.

1. It's impossible. Dead animals, including dead human animals, stay dead. It's always been that way and always will be that way.

2. Anyone can research what happens to dead human after 3 days in the ground. After 3 days the skin looks terrible, the internal organs are rotting, the maggots and worms are feasting, and the smell is too horrible to talk about.

3. If there is a God, the Christians insult God when they claim He performed a cheap and disgusting magic trick, which is the only way to describe converting a corpse into a living person. In the movies they are called zombies. What a terrible insult to God to claim He's in the zombie business.

4. The universe does not exist for the human species. Using the Hubble telescope scientists have noticed there's billions of galaxies out there, and each one of those billions of galaxies has billions of stars. Since our solar system has 8 planets, it's fair to say virtually every solar system has at least some planets. On several planets for each star there should often be at least one that's the right distance from the star to support life. In a vast universe that has more solar systems than grains of sand on every beach on earth, it's crazy to think we are the only intelligent species in the universe. So why would God, if there is a God, want to choose this tiny insignificant planet in the middle of nowhere for special treatment, including cheap magic tricks like the Resurrection? It's all wishful thinking and it doesn't have a shred of real evidence.

5. Scientists don't have answers for everything and they never will. However, they know enough now to say with great confidence that if conditions are right, life can develop on its own, perhaps from organic matter from comets, or near volcanos under the sea. Scientists also have an excellent understanding about how stars and planets form, and they can see this natural process continue today with the Hubble telescope. My point is, a solar system can develop, living cells can develop, and life can evolve into complex creatures like ourselves, all without supernatural intervention. God is just plain not necessary. Even if there is a God, we have no reason to believe it would show any interest in our insignificant planet.
Pastor Mark »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:26 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

According to the story, "An eclectic Jewish scholar... claims that Jesus and his disciples copied the idea of a messiah rising again after three days, basing his interpretation of scattered text found on a so-called ancient tablet."

What if it is TRUE???????

Based on my interpretation, as ââ‚¬Å“an eclectic Christian scholar,ââ‚¬Â Jesus and his disciples did not "copy" this idea, Jesus merely fulfilled the 333/456 Old Testament messianic prophecies... PLUS one more!
The tablet--if it is true [and I am certain that is just another antiquities hoax]--merely supports the classic prophetic-fulfillment arguments that we Christians have used against our foes since the days of the Early Church.
believer »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:43 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

"In 56AD Paul wrote that over 500 people had seen the risen Jesus and that most of them were still alive.(1 Corinthians 15:6) It passes the bounds of credibility that the early Christians could have manufactured such a tale and then preached it among those who might easily have refuted it simply by producing the body of Jesus." John Warwick Montgomery
believer »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:38 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

"The disciples had nothing to gain by lying and starting a new religion. They faced hardship, ridicule, hostility, and marytr's deaths. In light of this, they could have never sustained such unwavering motivation if they knew what they were preaching was a lie. The disciples were not fools and Paul was a cool-headed intellectual of the first rank. There would have been several opportunities over three to four decades of ministry to reconsider and renounce the lie." J.P. Moreland
bcoontz »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:20 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

c & d, your argument is assertion only and not based on anything more tangible than your own feelings on the subject. Christians are not the only ones to believe in the impossible. Your worldview says that, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that life can arise from non living matter. There are no eyewitnesses (naturally) for this belief. There is no observable processes by which we could project this as being true. It has never been replicated in a lab and, to date, there has been no way to test this hypothesis, yet you believe it.
The history of the church is easily verifiable back to its' beginning. That church is built on the fact that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. Many of the apostles and early disciples went to their deaths, gaining nothing in a worldly fashion, maintaining their witness.
The apostle Paul was adamantly and virulently persecuting the church in an attempt to destroy it and upon direct revelation, became Christianity's foremost apologist.
Upon all of this, I have seen impossible things happen when I called upon the name of the Lord. So hand wave all you want. The questions that you have not even thought to ask yourselves, many of of us have wrestled with, and by the grace of God, have gotten answers. My advice is to seek God with your whole heart, without precondition or arrogance, and see if you are not answered.
believer »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:50 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

dddd, Granted that even though we don't need anything more than the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God there are large amounts of evidence to support the truth of the bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Two books that share much of this evidence are; "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell and "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel. In fact Strobel's book is the result of the research he did as either an atheist or an agnostic to prove that Christ was not who He claimed to be and that He did not resurrect bodily from the grave.
believer »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:49 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

artm, with all due respect, God said it, that settles it, and if we're wise we'll believe it.
mathetes »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:39 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

cccccccc,
"even though Jesus was a mythical character (or just an ordinary preacher)."

Perhaps you would like to examine the evidence? Sure you read the Bible, but the extrabiblical evidence shows Jesus was real and more than a man. His Jewish enemies knew Jesus was real and that He did miracles; they just attributed His power to Satan rather than God. Coroborating testimony by one's enemies is strong evidence.
artm »

Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:10 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I Don's need more study of this tablet, I believe the Bible account of Christ's Resurrection. The old saying goes, " The Bible said it, I believe it, And that settles it."
Daniel Paul »

Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:31 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

"many who say the relic is too badly preserved to even read."

Who needs to be able to read it? After all, the spirit of anti-christ doesn't need facts when a good lie will do!
AConcernedShepherd »

Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:03 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Can you say Psalms 22 or Isaiah 53? Ah yes Psalms 2! I would not want GOD The Son of The One GODHEAD angry at me. However, there is one evidence that I know the Messiah, Resurrection is true. Asking forgiveness of my sins to GOD in Jesus' name. That's how I know THe Bible is true! Have you ever lied? If you say yes, then you are verifying absolute truth exists and has a source. GOD of course. Have you ever stolen or seen stealing in this world? Again if you say yes,again you acknowledge existence and origin of an absolute concept that stealing is stealing and not just a roll the dice concept. So how can you enter a kingdom that has no theives and liars? You can't but Jesus can for you because He lived while on Earth fully man, fully GOD a flawless, perfect life. And, becaude no sin like lying or stealing existed in His life any sin laid on Him by us sinners have to flee for Jesus had no sin in Him. Praise GOD! Ask GOD to forgive your sisn in Jesus' name while there is still time.
gavulav »

Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:32 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

The Devil doesn't give up, does he? This is just another little skirmish. The war is already won....every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!
tpique1 »

Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:59 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

This kind of fluff has been debunked before:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html
Topekan »

Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:48 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

It's all a bunch of claptrap. The church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers.
DannyPoo »

Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:43 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

To start, i just want to say, i'm a conservative Christian.

I do not "doubt" this tablet. I'm sure it says reasonably close to what is being said.

The argument really has to do with "what came first" did the disciples really copy another story from a time before Christ?

A few things need to be done first, more study is needed on a topic such as this. This tablet needs more supporting documentation for it's interpretation.

The second is, does this tablet actually refute Christian theology, or is it a result of a religious sect interpreting the old testament, in the same manner the disciples used - to conclude certain characteristics that the Messiah would have. In other words, there is too much time spent attempting to determine which came first, the chicken or the egg, instead we should remember that it is the Mother Hen that caused it all.
rolln4him »

Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:25 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

To this article - YAWN.
kboswell »

Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:16 pm Agree: 5 Disagree: 0

They huff and they puff.....but He still stands as the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.For almost 2000 years men have tried to disprove the Word of God, and in all their futile attempts, not one word has been lost.I'm sure in a week or two, they will find something else to stir up the media and get all the godless people's hopes up of not having to account for their sins. tick-tock.......redemption draws nearer with each passing second. Glory be to the Lamb of God.
wbmoore »

Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:08 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

"it's laughable"

Amen!

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