WASHINGTON ā The issue of same-sex āmarriageā provokes strong emotions and actions on both sides of the debate with little common ground seemingly to be found. But on Thursday the beginning of an unlikely understanding appeared to emerge at a panel discussion that included Christian conservatives and a gay activist.
-
(Photo: The Christian Post)Alliance Defense Fund Chief Counsel Benjamin Bull speaks at the Family Research Council's discussion on the California same-sex ''marriage'' event as FRC president Tony Perkins sits next to him on Thursday, July 10, 2008 in Washington, D.C.
All five panelists at the Family Research Council event, with the exception of the gay activist, were against California's ruling to legalize same-sex āmarriage.ā At the end of the discussion, no one had changed their position although both sides felt they could better understand the issue from the otherās point of view.
On the traditional marriage side, some panelists listed legal problems, including infringement on religious liberty, which resulted from Californiaās recent ruling that legalized same-sex āmarriage.ā
Chief Counsel Benjamin Bull of the Alliance Defense Fund gave examples of California churches that have been sued for refusing to perform same-sex weddings. He also questioned how Californiaās same-sex āmarriageā ruling will affect state clerks that do not want to grant marriage licenses to homosexual couples because of their religious beliefs.
āWhat is the problem with the California same-sex āmarriageā case?ā Bull asked. āThere are lots of problems with it that are huge and profound.
āOne of them is what radical, homosexual-activists will do with the new institution of same-sex āmarriageā and use it as a battering ram across America to blast open new areas that ultimately diminish the rights of Christians to express their faith in their lives and how they live.ā
Bull, who has defended the religious freedom of many Christians in gay rights cases, contends that in the end a personās faith will only be a āpersonalized, individualizedā faith and that you can āthink about it but you canāt even talk about itā if the homosexual agenda continues to spread.
Yet he softened after hearing Professor Chai R. Feldblum of Georgetown University Law Center speak about the issue from the other perspective. He had expressed eagerness to talk more with the gay activist after hearing her moderate tone.
Feldblum, who described herself as a practicing lesbian, said she is against the gay communityās lack of respect for religious peopleās values. As a former Orthodox Jew and daughter of a rabbi, Feldblum said she understands being religious means engaging in certain conducts.
āMy sense of being religious completely intertwined with conduct that I did as a religious Jew,ā she said. āIf someone had told me that I could be a religiously firm Jew but I couldnāt engage in certain conduct or I had to engage in certain conduct ā like I had to turn on the light on Shabbos (weekly Sabbath or day of rest in Judaism) ā āWhat is the big deal you are just turning on the light on Shabbos?ā
āOk, let me tell you for a firm Jew if you do not turn on the light for Shabbos. Thatās a sin,ā she said. āNor do you facilitate someone else who is Jewish to turn on the light. Thatās a sin.ā
As a result of her own former religious background, Feldblum said she ācanāt standā those in the gay community that say people of faith should ājust get over itā when it comes to performing a legal action that goes against their values, such as a county clerk who believes homosexuality is a sin making a marriage license for a gay couple. Continue >>
RSS
James 4:4 "Unfaithful people! Don't you know that to be the world's friend means to be God's enemy? If you want to be the world's friend, you make yourself God's enemy."
Now here is the site i came across doing research not to long back. Here is the link that some have been asking on the movie being made on the lie of David's and Johnathan's homosexual relationship. You see there are 'church's' that believe such blasphemy that its hard to comprehend, but its all to justify themselves. Read the whole page but start where the link takes you. Its a satanic church. They preach a false Gospel and lead many to damnation. Its my 'Job' if you will my Gift of the Spirit and my Ministry given unto me by God to expose all those who lead others astray, to stand against them, and yes Debate them. And Jesus did 'whoop' on them in yahoo and many other sites!
http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Resources&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=2122#Pt3
this is the metropolitan 'church'
1Corinthians 3:16 Surely you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you!
1Co 3:17 God will destroy anyone who destroys God's temple. For God's temple is holy, and you yourselves are his temple.
1Co 3:18 You should not fool yourself. If any of you think that you are wise by this world's standards, you should become a fool, in order to be really wise.
1Co 3:19 For what this world considers to be wisdom is nonsense in God's sight. As the scripture says, "God traps the wise in their cleverness";
1Co 3:20 and another scripture says, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are worthless."
ifeelfine,
I sure wish you'd stop stepping on my first amendment. If I want to say that I think you are not a Christian because of your fruits (or lack thereof) then it is within my right to voice my opinion. And if you don't like my opinion, you have the right to voice yours...or leave.
As I've said before. This is a message board. What I present here, and how I do it, is nothing like I do in real life. CP is a place for me to speak what is truly on my mind. In real life I am extremely diplomatic with people, but they still know where I stand in my convictions.
Prophet - in the 'Exodus' thread igh was talking about 'whooping' people with the Bible in arguements on Yahoo. I believe he answered your concern with his fruits.
prophet: here we go again. Our hermeneutics are different. Eventually God will tell each of us who is right - until then, keep who you think is or is not a Christian to yourself . . . unless you're commenting on your own spiritual life. As for me, I know where I stand! God bless and have a good weekend.
Daniel,
I don't think the Pharisees were as humble as you would believe. The way Jesus talked to, and about, them would lead me to believe they were prideful. He talks about how they love the best seats at the dinner table, and how they stand in public giving loud prayers, and how they put a yoke of bondage upon the people. That doesn't sound too humble to me.
Daniel Paul,
I think you are assigning motivation to an action, when you do not know the motivation.
It is appropriate to quote scripture when it applies to a comment or article, even if you quote a lot of it.
The thing you seem to be saying is that igh is only doing it to make himself look good. Is that why YOU present whatever point you present? I doubt it. From what I see of igh's posts, it does not appear to me to be his/her motivation either.
I would prever to see him quote from online site that does not put the chapter:verse infront of each line, and shows the text as a paragraph, as it makes it easier to read that way (like http://www.biblegateway.com). I would prefer him to have some comment and maybe just give the book:chapter:verse as support, with only occasionally quoting the scripture. But I know for a fact that what Scripture says on the matter is MUCH more important than what I have to say on it.
I don't think you understand the motivation behind igh's posting scripture and so you assume it is done to make him look good. I dont see it that way.
Matthew 23:5 "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments"
phylacteries - small boxes containing Scripture texts worn for religious purposes
1Co 3:16 Surely you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you!
1Co 3:17 God will destroy anyone who destroys God's temple. For God's temple is holy, and you yourselves are his temple.
1Co 3:18 You should not fool yourself. If any of you think that you are wise by this world's standards, you should become a fool, in order to be really wise.
1Co 3:19 For what this world considers to be wisdom is nonsense in God's sight. As the scripture says, "God traps the wise in their cleverness";
1Co 3:20 and another scripture says, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are worthless."
Milford...from what I know of law and the legal process you are correct. The ruling says same-sex marriage is not illegal. Those who do not understand the legal process do not understand that 'not illegal' does not mean it is legal. As crazy as it sounds that's the way it works. No wonder our courts are so messed up!
I ask everyone who reads these posts to keep from perpetuating half-truths. The California Supreme Court's ruling on same sex marriage does NOT equate to "legal" or law. The legislature passes laws as authorized by California's constitution, and until the California legislature passes the law, the same sex marriage is technically not "legal". When we start writing that same sex marriage is legal in CA or MA, we perpetuate an inaccuracy; soon, it is taken for granted and becomes an accepted 'fact' even though it is false.
If I am incorrect on the legal aspect, let me know.
Hello my friend,
I am doing well, thank God. How have you been? Someone has apparently been deleting all of your comments; much prayer. I look forward to receiving your email this week, have a blessed day.
Hey Online!
How's it going? I haven't heard from you in a while. Yeah, yeah, I know I haven't emailed you. I'll do that this week. I hope you are doing well.
Christians appeal to the Word of God as the standard for their faith and practice; we cannot speak contrary to what God has spoken. Marriage is ONLY between a man and a woman in GodâĆ¢āĀ¬Ć¢āĀ¢s eyes.
Prophet, yeah, aren't they? I know the author.
wbmoore,
Amen. Nice scripture.
Galatians 5:19-6:1
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
1 John 3:8-10
8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
As I posted earlier...
Any who willingnly remains in a homosexual lifestyle, or anyone who promotes or supports that or any sinful lifestyle, is not a Christian.
Willful practitioners of homosexuality are not Christian. Those who support a sinful lifestyle such as that are not Christians.
Ifeelfine falls into one of those two catagories.
I'll leave it at that.
I came back to flag prophets post where he claimed I was not a Christian as CP asks that libelous posts be flagged but I guess someone else beat me to it. I'm sorry that whoever did it flagged all his posts.
BTW, prophet, I went back and read the analogy you wrote about embezzlement - clearly my response to you didn't come across as I intended. My response was agreeing with your post and taking it a step further - your follow up comment to that indicated you thought I was being rascally - which I wasn't. I was finding some common ground. Anyway, God bless.
Yes, Prophet and star2 flagged a couple of abusive and offensive posts of ccccccc (who switched to ddddd who switched to eeee). He promised to flag all their posts. Looks like he's making good on the threat.
*Does his happy dance*
Jesus rocks Jesus rocks Jesus rocks!
sorry lina but GOD IS SCIENCE!! God created all the particles of matter, put them in place and motion, all the explanations we have of there make-up and properties God has placed there. We in our finite capacity to understand all that is made by God , cant be Prideful enough to boast we are all that because we have some understanding of our world and us? could we be that vain?
Humble yourself before God lina and let him teach you all kinds of wonderful things!! Many millions have and were never disappointed, and what price peace or hope or Love? Faith does all that and more!! Its all free from the Father ! If you want to excell at whatever you put your hands to Trust in Jesus! And it shall come to pass. Amen.
Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Jeremiah 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."
Wow Prophet, what did you say? Apparently you've made someone really mad. To the person that flagged all of his posts: please refer to the rules about flagging. Please explain how every one of Prophet's posts were Abusive, Spam, Offensive, Illegal, Racist or Libellous Posts. Thanx!
Chalk one up for lina for such a persuasive argument.
There's really nothing new to understand here. It's religion vs. science. The former always loses in the end because religion is a lie and science is truth. Period.
Repent baby!
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "
The Holy Spirit cannot inhabit an unrepentive sinner.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Psa 34:13 Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
Psa 34:14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
Psa 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
Psa 34:16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Psa 34:17 The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.
Psa 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Psa 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
Psa 34:20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.
Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.
Has to be a turning toward God and repentive heart, not just abstaining from Sex! Cant be Gay and a Servant of the Lord Jesus!
Psa 36:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David the servant of the LORD. The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.
Psa 36:2 For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.
Psa 36:3 The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.
Psa 36:4 He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.
Psa 36:5 Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.
Psa 36:6 Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast.
Psa 36:7 How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.
Psa 36:8 They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.
Psa 36:9 For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.
Psa 36:10 O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart.
Psa 36:11 Let not the foot of pride come against me, and let not the hand of the wicked remove me.
Psa 36:12 There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise.
Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
have to repent or your not Saved, celebate or not.
daniel, as I thought more about your question I also think what complicates this issue even more is the issue of how a person becomes a homosexual. Are they born a homosexual, do they choose to be a homosexual, or are they born with a bent toward homosexuality and as a result of life experiences choose to move toward that lifestyle. If the answer is the latter two then another option is for them to move from being a homosexual to being a heterosexual. That is not to say that would be an easy choice in fact just the opposite but with the help of God it can and does happen.
Jesus talked about the seed that springs up quickly but has no depth of soil.
Daniel, the question is can a person be a homosexual and still be a Christian. I believe the answer is yes. Now comes the dilemma what does the homosexual do with the sexual practices of that lifestyle. If he is a Christian he has one of two choices. If he believes the Bible does condemn the sexual practices of homosexuality as sin then he must totally abstain from those practices both physically and mentally. Or if he does not believe the Bible condemns them then he continues to say and believe just that and if the Bible doesn't he does his best to get same-sex marriage/union laws passed so he can have that type of sex and do it in the confines of a legal marriage or union the same way the Bible says heterosexuals are only to have sex in the confines of a legal marriage.
Here's one for the think tank to kick around. My basis for saying homosexuality is wrong is simply because God created and uses the model of one man and one woman for life as an example of His relationship with us. He could have created differently but He didn't. It's simply a matter of the way He set it up and said it was suppose to be.
This is the problem with the pro-gay and Christian arguement. Christians do what the Father says. Sin is sin because God said it is. Truth is a matter of opinion...God's opinion and He has weighed in.
Just because we find ways that work for us doesn't mean it's the way God wants us to do it.
Looks to be the same tired old story to me. Christians in the USA claiming oppression, when they are prohibited from oppressing others, using the tenants of their Christian faith. Still concerned about would God will do to the USA because of the "sins" of other, without concern what God may do to the USA because of their own sins. Like they believe God will still reward the USA as she still oppresses her own citizens and the citizens of the world for Earthly treasures. Whole they certainly didn't invent it Christians in the USA have taken moral ambiguity to a whole new level. :(
Then you will know the truth, and it will set you free!
Amen!
"The greatest act of love one human can visit upon another is to tell that person the truth."
amen!
But, then again, that's what the Pharisees said about Jesus.
prophet said: "And why do you need a certificate to remain faithful? Is that the only way you can?"
And why must you always be so antagonistic? Is that what the spirit guides you to do? If so, you are being guided by the wrong spirit.
The greatest act of love one human can visit upon another is to tell that person the truth. I'm talking about the truth apart from any social, physical, or emotional stigma that society places ahead of the truth. The truth in this case is simple. It is natural. All of nature conforms to and succedes by this truth. It is God's universal law concerning gender. It is that "God created them male and female". This truth is explained by another Scripture that says, "and God told them to go forth and populate the earth." both of these truths involve procreation. Procreation (I can't believe I'm actually trying to explain this to adults!) occurs between a male and a female according to the Word of God. Sex involving any other combination is against God's law for the race of mankind. The institution of marriage (also God's ordained plan for procreation) is only spoken of in the Scriptures as between a man and a woman. Any other perception of marriage is a perversion of the Word of God. THe only possible escape from adherence to the Word of God is to deny God's Word as authoritative in the affairs of mankind. We must love those who continue in a confused state concerning God's perfect will for men and women as partners in marriage. We must also pray for thoswe who reject God's Word concerning homosexuality.
The thing is, even if there IS hate present among homosexuals (and I think there is as much fear and anger and hate among some of them as there is among some of the people who call themselves believers), its a follow on emotion. It is not there with everyone or possibly even most - on both sides.
I say hate is a follow on emotion to say that it follows another emotional need that has not been met. The cycles generally goes "hurt, fear, anger, hate". I have never known someone stuck in one that had not gone through the previous ones.
They come to CP to witness to us, because they think if we knew them we would not say what they do is sinful. For some people, who do not rely upon God's word to decide what is right and wrong, they probably have a point. If the way people feel or think about homosexuals is because of a fear of what is different, then certainly exposure to "normal" homosexuals would reduce that fear which would make it more likely for them be accepted and not thought of as wrong or sinful.
They want to be embraced, not simply tolerated.
Everyone needs God. It is only through Christ they can come to know Him and be reconciled to Him. We, as sinners, know this. They, as unrepentant sinners, may or may not know this. If they know it, then there is uncertainty or fear or denial. Eventually, that may turn to hurt or anger towards God and His representatives.
The thing is, for people who love God and follow His word, even when we know and like the sinner, it simply makes us want to witness and share our love for God and God's love for us even more. We love these people and want them to avoid the pain and suffering of being out of God's will will bring.
So their only hope for being embraced is to try to get us to not agree with the Bible, or to get the appearance of being embraced through law until we can be quieted fully (which will come in time as the persecution grows).
Minneapolitian , being gay isnt in the image of the Living God. It has nothing to do with him but it has everything to do why he destroyed sodom an gomorrah and the cities of that valley. The way you think and the way God thinks are as far apart as the east from the west. They way you do things and the way God does things is as far apart as the east is from the West. Its all True, you must repent and turn from all sin unto Righteousness in Christ. You must submit your will unto his. You must allow God to remake your mind and Heart into the exact image of Christs. You will be cast out, and you do know whether you are in rebellion or not. Everyone knows. God is patient but has appointed a time of Judgement. I know the majority of the world hates the usa and will devour it hungrily, and we will be delivered up to our enemies if we do not repent and turn to Jesus. God has done this before. Many times the sons of Abraham were delivered to its enemies for rebellion and this rebellion included such horrible acts that one cant see a society holding dearly to them as normal, but they did. And the usa is beginning to turn to accepting perversion in all its sick forms as normal. The end is near and there in no where to hide from God's wrath. All True.
minni,
Good. I'm glad you don't claim to be a Christian. You can live whatever lifestyle you want. You'll answer for it eventually though. But you already know that. I'm just glad you don't use God as a reason to justify your sin.
"minni, Do you consider yourself religious?"
Can't say I do any more Prohphet, although as I child I would have considered myself religious as I was following what my parents taught me.
"I must ask...Minnesota?"
Hi Daniel Paul, yup and yay Minnesota. I was born and raised in the New York metropolitan area, but I moved to Minneapolis 14 years ago and absolutely love living here. What a nice place this is, I can't imagine living anywhere else now. We have a house in South Minneapolis.
Igh, please don't be so angry at us, we're just like everyone else and we're really not worth getting so angry over. You know gay.com by the way? Gay.com has a lot of things, some of it is pretty silly actually, but actual "hatred" on gay.com?
daniel, but considering the fact that God's Word clearly teaches that only volunteers will go to heaven why would God be anything but a Volunteer Fan!!!!
from article:
"But on the other hand, she said homosexuals feel humiliated and hurt when a county clerk or a facility refuses to serve them because they are gay.
Can you imagine if you are a black person and it is like, âĆ¢āĀ¬Ć āOk, well no, I donâĆ¢āĀ¬Ć¢āĀ¢t serve black people but this person will,âĆ¢āĀ¬ĆĀ Feldblum said."
Being black is normal and blacks are made in the image of the Living and Eternal Saviour, Our Lord God. Being gay or lesbian or transexual or questioning or curious or transvestite or bi-sexual or she-males or metrosexuals or all the rest is sick and rebellion towards God. I am tired of gays tying civil rights to themselves. Game players and selfish and hedonistic God haters. I know i will make many upset, but i have many years witnessing, and the hatred they speak in private is something you dont hear them say in public. go to gay.com or any gay website. see for yourselves.
Actually, it's Robertson McQuilkin. His dad was Robert C. McQuilkin who founded the college. http://www.ciu.edu/about/history.html
I knew both he and his wife for many years. My dad was Dean when Robertson was President. His wife did a much loved program on the radio station. It was difficult to watch us loose her. He has written several books which may still be available through the CIU Bookstore.
...and no...I eat chicken.... :-) I'm a Golden Gopher football fan. They are the best named team in the college league. Most times they set foot on the field they get run in the ground. (Besides, I was born and raised in MN.)
Minneapolitian- I will look for the link to the study. I heard it on the radio the other day.
I must ask...Minnesota? I was originally from their. My dad worked for what is now Crown College some 30 years ago.
daniel, are you speaking of Dr. Robert McCulkin, if so his testimony is a powerful one with regards to leaving his position at Columbia to care for his wife, I pray my wife would never go through that but if she does that God will bless me with that same courage and love he gave Dr. McCulkin. But please don't tell me you're a USC fan? If so, is it true their team mascot is really a canary on steroids?
minni,
Do you consider yourself religious?
"Neither can you prove any more effectively that gay/lesbians have a LOWER percentage rate when it comes to DV."
That is very true Prophet, while I could point to studies, other could point to different studies showing the reverse findings. Neither will be more effective in showing a higher or lower rate. I suspect the true answer is the levels are nearly the same for all families, either way it is unfortunate when any DV occurs in any family.
"And why do you need a certificate to remain faithful? Is that the only way you can"
We don't and we have proven that to ourselves and trust each other unconditionally. But what I had said in my previous post was it would be nice to "add" a marriage to our big list of reasons why we should stay monogamous, but that certainly isn't the only reason.
Minni,
Neither can you prove any more effectively that gay/lesbians have a LOWER percentage rate when it comes to DV.
And why do you need a certificate to remain faithful? Is that the only way you can?
ifeelfine,
BTW, if God isn't anti-gay, then He's also not anti-polygamist or anti-incest.
"Still, lebian couples have a much, MUCH higher level of 'domestic violence'."
Can you show us where this has been proven? I've never read that and would be curious to see who came out with that study? I've read studies that show just the opposite.
"Still, the STD level is not as low as it is where a man and woman remained pure until marriage and remained in their monogomus relationship."
Yup, I agree, my male partner and I have been in our monogamous gay relationship for 8 years now and we never have had any STDs what so ever. It would be nice to add a marriage certificate to that to give us another reason to remain monogamous for the next 50 years.
"the hermeneutic is not so clear regarding homosexuality."
Have them look up the word "arsenokoites" word #733 in the Strongs Greek Dictionary found in the Strongs Concordence. It means "sodomite:-abuser of (that defile) self with mankind". This is the word in I Cor. 6-9 that troubled person is sueing Zondervan over.
Sodomite from which we get sodomy "fr. the homosexual proclivities of the men of the city in Gen 19:1-11" according to Webster.
The hermeneutics are actually quite clear. The former President of the Bible College I worked for is one of the considered experts in the area of hermeneutics. (He retired to take care of his wife who developed allstimers in her very early 50's for those who may have heard him interviewed about that on Focus on the Family.)
"Daniel paul: And lesbians have the lowest rates of HIV / AIDS and other "social diseases" of any group - what's your point? "
Still, lebian couples have a much, MUCH higher level of 'domestic violence'.
As for the STD issue. It's simply the biology of physical relations where fluid transfer is minimized between lesbian couples. Still, the STD level is not as low as it is where a man and woman remained pure until marriage and remained in their monogomus relationship.
So, what's your point?
wes, there are extremists on both sides of this issue and that's what muddies the water and causes both sides to plant their feet in concrete on this issue. If those who are for same-sex marriages/unions are truly being honest that their real concern is that they and their partner recieve the same legal and financial benefits of a married couple then the domestic partnership plan I presented will do the trick, but if the real agenda is to force society to accept their homosexual lifestyle then the plan won't fit their agenda. mistereks shared a difficult situation that his uncle has found himself in and I agree it appears to be unfair, but as I stated I know people living together in totally non-sexual relationships who are in the same boat and it's just as unfair for them. So if the goal is to help anybody who finds themselves in this situation the plan will work, but if there is another or hidden agenda the plan will not work nor is it what they're looking for.
True, God isn't anti-gay. He's not anti-murderer either. Or anti-adulterer.
But He is anti-homosexuality, anti-murder, and anti-adultery.
artm - I go to a church where the denomination has taken a stand against homosexuality, however the pastor is friendly. I've had other pastors tell me that the hermeneutic is not so clear regarding homosexuality. Why are you so convinced?
Followers of Christ don't need a poll or a survey to tell them what is acceptable in society, We have the Bible,God's Word.
I vote " No " on same sex marriges or cival unions, or whatever you want to call them, I baSE MY VOTE ON THE wORD OF God.
People are trying to push God on the side line on this issue, It can't be done. You cannot make God, a God of no matter.
Pass all the laws you please, and I do believe there will be same sex unions in this country leagalized by our government, But God have mercy on this nation.
Daniel paul: And lesbians have the lowest rates of HIV / AIDS and other "social diseases" of any group - what's your point?
prophet: You better go back and check your civics textbook. The United States is a republic with democratic principles and procedures.
believer: I mostly agree with your compromise on domestic partnerships. It wouldn't take much of a law to do a legal "search and replace" of the word marriage. Churches are the only institutions that should be marrying anyone and if a church chooses to or not to marry same-sexu couples it is completely the business of that church. The government shouldn't be in the "marriage" business it should be in the civil union business or domestic partnership business. Good post.
artm - God is not anti-gay but clearly a lot of people on this site are. You can just feel the anger in the tone of a lot of folks' posts on this site (and much of that anger is coming from people who claim to be Christians).
artm - you don't understand, there are many religious beliefs in the US - your brand of Christianity is just one of them - mistereks questions were good ones. Should we codify other religious sins - drinking coffee, dancing? They may not be sins in your brand of Christianity but they certainly are in others. Answer his question.
Thierdaddyhisson - are you in favor of outlawing divorce?
But where many homosexuals fall short is their support of polygamy and incestuous marriages.
You can always find a poll somewhere that will support your belief. I came across a couple polls that show there is no difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals in regards to domestic violence.
"either you believe the Bible is GOD's scripture or you don't"
Then have you given all your money to the poor yet?
And in terms of Mormon scriptures, they believe they are true as fervently as you believe the bible is.
If civil unions were required of ALL couples, I'd be fine with that. Leave marriage to the churches. That simply isn't practical given our legal system.
In terms of domestic violence, a recent study shows exactly the opposite -- gay couples get along BETTER than straight couples, resolving their arguments more amicably and with greater understanding of their partner. New York Times, June 10, I think.
"First, dancing may be not strictly prohibited in the Bible, but it has been forbidden as a sin by some Baptists. Drinking coffee is a sin to Mormons because it is stated so in one of THEIR scriptures."
Variation on a theme, eh? The key word here is "their scriptures". Here's the point...either you believe the Bible is GOD's scripture or you don't. If you do, you want to do what it says and not do what it calls sin. Otherwise, you don't believe it is God's word. Jesus is VERY clear in MANY passages about His sheep hearing His voice and following it (His voice is in red in a red letter edition). He states marriage is between one man and one woman. Period.
To be a Christian means Christs ways are our ways. In a democracy that means our ways (which become from His ways) is what we want for our country. It is our voice in this democracy.
You can call it a civil union or whatever you want. The Bible says it is wrong and therefore I say it is wrong. That is how I vote in this democracy I am a part of.
I heard stats on the news the other day that same-sex relationships are over 50% more prone to 'domestic violence' then a traditional marriage. It's simply the numbers. They also said same-sex relationships are much shorter lived then traditional marriage. You think the family court is busy now!!!
misterks,
You said "ARTM and Prophet - I fully honor your right to hold your beliefs. But in terms of CIVIL marriage, your religious viewpoint has no more weight, constitutionally-speaking, than anyone else's religious viewpoint."
True. Therein lies the problem with a democracy. A democracy doesn't necessarily make it's laws on what's right (though most are), but on what the majority opinion is. If you get enough people (admittedly in this scenario it would have to be a HUGE number) to boycot coffee, it would probably have an effect. And it would take time and perseverence. The homosexual agenda is a good example. They've been working on people and the government for decades. It's a slow, laborious process, but as you can see it is working.
If you get enough people, and the right people, to agree with you, you can change almost anything in our humanistic government.
But, as I posted in another article, the United States government will fail us, and America will fall.
artm and others -
First, dancing may be not strictly prohibited in the Bible, but it has been forbidden as a sin by some Baptists. Drinking coffee is a sin to Mormons because it is stated so in one of THEIR scriptures.
Second, I'm fine with all of you who believe homosexuality is a sin, but the issue here is CIVIL marriage.
That's why I was mentioning things that are sins, but are still allowed legally. Drunkeness is a sin according to the Bible, but it's not illegal so long as you don't do it while driving or in public. Gambling is a sin. I think usury (lending money at interest) is also forbidden. Coveting your neighbor's possessions is a sin, but not a crime. (As long as you keep it at coveting.) Not to mention all the dietary restrictions in the Old Testament.
Then there are things that are "legal" in the Bible (slavery, polygamy) that our civil society has determined are forbidden.
"I believe they could design a domestic partnership agreement that could take care of all the concerns you shared with why the word marriage is necessary to be used in this matter."
Believer I understand what you are saying, but that will only work if the heterosexual community is willing to comprise and meet us gay people in the middle. I believe most gay people would be just fine with giving up the word "marriage" by getting a government "civil union", but ONLY if heterosexual people are willing to give up this same right and they too could only get a government "civil union". Everyone would have "Civil Unions" via the state. Then if some wants to use the word "marriage" (which no longer will have any legal meaning) they can get "married" in a church of their choice. You see anything less is making gay people separate but equal and we all know that history tells us that in the long run separate but equal is going to lose in the USA. People can believe what ever they want about what their god says or doesn't say, but in this country that doesn't give the right to make millions of people second-class citizens just because they may believe differently or don't believe at all.
So now a question, how many of you are willing to compromise and give up all legal recognition of the word "marriage" by the government and have the states only issue "civil unions" to everyone same and opposite sex couples alike?
hierwin. Please understand, Yoy don't have to believe the Bible, or any part of it, Just understand that one day we shall all stand before God and give account.
Then God will set the matter straight (no pun intended.)
ronwilson, I'm with str8butnotnarrow: I don't believe this part of the Bible. There are lots of parts (like those mentioned in the famous, probably bogus letter to Dr. Laura) that almost no one believes any more.
Both gays and Christians understand what the Holy Bible say concerning homosexuality. One can believe it or not.
itsallaboutjesusnotme.blogspot.com
This is just a P.S.
Would anyone call God anti-gay.? God is the best friend the homosexual has. Christ gave His Life on the Cross for every sinner.
Thank God we don't have to die lost, Christ shed His Blood for all our sins, your's, Mine, the homosexual's, for those who committ adultry, lie, steal, To God be the Glory.
weshlovrcm. You do not understand, The Christian does not speak out against homosexuality because they enjoy doing so, We do so because God tells us too.
Ezekiel 33:8 Declares," When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, You shall surely die, If you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, That wicked man shall die in his inquity, But his blood shall I require at your hand.
We must warn in love and compassion, but to stay true to God we must warn.
And believer, You cannot convince the Christian to ignore the Word of God, phrase the matter anyway you like, The Bible will still say homosexuality is sin.
It may the majority think it is wrong because God said so, and just like the laws of physics, people have discovered the moral laws the God has created that worldwide. The minority who think it is a good thing may be simply have been given over to the depravity of their desires, as God said He does.
mistereks, The Bible,(Gods Word) doesn't say that drinking coffee is sin. Nor does it say that danching is sin. But it does say that homosexuality is sin, and an abomination unto God.
When the homosexual stands before God, He will not ask him about his Constitutional rights, He will say to him, you knew the truth, It was in my Word.
The problem is that radical anti-gay activists and large pro-homophobia advocacy groups want to ram their religious beliefs down the throats of all Americans. Many Americans, gay and straight, Christian and non-Christian feel that homophobia is a sin. We feel it's immoral, because it goes against Christ's commandment to treat others as we want to be treated. Surely something which leads to harm and murder of gay people is "bad fruit." And "bad fruit cannot come from a good tree." Even God's Word makes it clear that revilers will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If we are going to legislate religious beleifs into law, then I believe the US Constitution should be amended to prevent homophobes from marrying since they are sinful and living an immoral lifestyle.
mistereks, I believe they could design a domestic partnership agreement that could take care of all the concerns you shared with why the word marriage is necessary to be used in this matter. If I'm correct do you see a problem using that terminology and leaving the terms same-sex and marriage out of the partnership issue completely?
Let me ask those who are opposed to same-sex marriages/unions this question. Would any of you have a problem with domestic partnerships that would allow the two people the right to obtain the same legal and financial benefits of a married couple, but would not sanction same-sex marriages/unions nor would we as citizens be forced to condone a practice that we believe violates our religious beliefs. And what the two people choose to do after they are approved for this domestic partnership is totally up to them and frankly no one else's business.
Sorry cut my own self off .. to continue I personally do not see any reason to accomidate anybody in Blatant, intentional, unrepentant patterns of behavior that would not only keep them from comming closer to a Loving relationship with God. But would also cause through their actions be causing others to lose that most wondeful relationship as well.
We know the bible does not say anything about the choices of whether we can dance or drink coffe. those are personal beliefs created by people not God.
However the CHOICE of commiting homosexual and heterosexual acts outside of thier intended purposes, (i.e. procreation, giving and recieving pleasure). in a commited male female marriage is from the word of God written down for us so that we through it can come to know (have a intimate relationship with) God. We can walk our path and say and do whatever we want even think we are correct in doing so. however its when we give ourselves over to God and walk his path and realize that if we say one thing and he (God) says something else than it is WE who are wrong PERIOD.
ARTM and Prophet - I fully honor your right to hold your beliefs. But in terms of CIVIL marriage, your religious viewpoint has no more weight, constitutionally-speaking, than anyone else's religious viewpoint.
Mormons believe drinking coffee is a sin. Yet there are plenty of Starbucks in Salt Lake City. Some Baptists believe dancing in sin, yet it's legal pretty much everywhere as far as I know. Adultery is sin, many sexual practices engaged in by heterosexuals are sin, yet we don't deny civil marriage to people who have engaged in those sins. Why do we deny civil marriage to homosexuals? Is there sin worse than others?
artm,
Amen. That is truth.
What is there to understand.? The Bible,(Gods Word) Says that homosexuality is a sin. I can't change that. I can't rewrite the Bible.
We could sit down and talk untill the Lord comes, We could explain each other's thoughts and feelings on the matter, And when it was all said and done, The Bible would still say homosexuality is a sin.
Please understand this, It is not me you offend, It is God. I am only a spokesman.
When You stand before God's throne, I won't be the one you have wronged, It will be, and is God.
God loves the homosexual, And will forgive them if they repent and turn from that sin.
Otherwise, you will face the judgement of God, And there is nothing I can do about that, I love you, But I cannot change the Word of God.
Believer - I hope you slept well. My answer about why the word "marriage" is important is because it is used in thousands upon thousands of laws across the country. My understanding is it would be prohibitively expensive, time-consuming and generally impractical to try and change them all to apply to civil unions or domestic partnerships,as well. What's more, many civil union and domestic partnership laws give some of the benefits of marriage, but don't usually require the same responsibilities, especially the most important ones, like taking on any debts the partner takes on during the relationship, or the difficulty of dissolving the union.
I do appreciate how important the term "marriage" is to people of faith, but it's important to gay folks, too. I hope it's something we can share. Perhaps the religious can take on "covenant marriage" and we can have "civil marriage." Who knows? But denying important benefits to millions of Americans just because another group wants to define a word one way seems unfair to me. And after all, "marriage" has changed over the years: it meant polygamy in Biblical times, women as the property of men for hundreds of years after that, etc.
Believer there is a huge difference between your sister-in-law and her friend living together for financial reasons and me and my partner who have lived together for 6 and half of the eight years we've been together. The difference is we are in love with each other. By not allowing us to be married to each other we are being told we are second class citizens, and that wont do because we are not. I agree with mistereks though, I would be fine with EVERYONE (meaning all heterosexual and gay couples) getting a legal domestic partnership through the government and left the actual non-legal marriages to a church. Except many would still object because there would be many Churches that would still marry gay couples, many here in Minneapolis would I know that for sure.
By the way where in California or Massachusetts has there been a church that has been sued over not performing a gay marriage? I read the gay headlines almost every day and surely a news story like that would have blasted all over the news wires. I've never seen any evidence of that, maybe I missed it that day, so please show me a link.
My final comment is I'm also surprised how obsessed this web site is with gay issues, on a few occasions I noticed that over 50% of the news stories here have something to do with the gay community. Makes one wonder many things.
mistereks, but why does the word marriage have to enter the equation at all from the legal perspective? You see for those of us who adhere to the Word of God and believe God teaches that the sexual practices of homosexuality are a sin we believe that using the word marriage equates to condoning a sin that God condemns. If you use the term domestic partnership what the two people do after that is approved is no one's business, nor is it government sanctioned, nor am I as a citizen knowingly condoning a practice that violates my religious beliefs. I'm heading to bed so don't think I am ignoring you because I won't see your response until the morning, but I've enjoyed the discussion and thanks for helping me to get a better grasp on my personal beliefs on this issue, believer
I agree with you -- I'd be fine if EVERYONE who wanted the benefits of civil marriage/union had to go to the courthouse first and do the legal bits. Then if they desired, they could go to whatever church they wanted (and would allow it) to sanctify their marriage.
But I disagree with you on allowing multiple people to do this. Because that creates INequity -- if you have more than one civil partner, who gets the health benefits, the Social Security benefits, etc. I think we need to limit it to one.
For now, civil marriage equality seems to be the fairest way to deal with this issue, on a legal basis.
mistereks, that is a tough situation for which someone from my point of view on this issue does not have an easy answer. I would not have a problem if a system was put in place that would allow two people of any sex who share a residence together as housemates to be allowed to receive partnership benefits and in fact I would not have any problem in allowing for more than two to be a part of this partnership. And you may have just helped me to answer a question no one has been able to help me with. Is this the point of same-sex unions and if it is why use the word same or sex and just call them domestic partnerships. For instance my sister-in-law shares her home with another woman, they both had very bad abusive experiences in their marriages and neither one has any desire at this point to marry or be with men. Nor are either one of them homosexuals but are very close friends. They have no desire to enter into a same-sex union, so if you call it a domestic partnership they would be eligible as well and probably willing to enter into one.
Believer -- yes, plenty of ridiculous law suits out there. Some people have sued to allow prayer back in schools, the Ten Commandments in civil buildings...so lawsuits on both sides of the religious/secular divide have been filed.
I have a true story for you, and would like your response:
I had an uncle-in-law who was a gay man. He lived with his partner for over 35 years. They did all they could legally to formalize their relationship. But they could not marry.
When this uncle died of lung cancer, his surviving partner did not receive Social Security survivor benefits -- as he would have if they had been able to marry.
What's more, he had to pay inheritance tax on the 50% of the house they shared that he was bequeathed by this uncle. Again, this would not have happened had they been able to marry.
Finally, the property tax basis on the house changed because it was considered a change in ownership -- and again, this would not have happened if they were a married couple.
These three things combined meant that his partner could no longer afford to stay in the house they had shared for over three decades.
Does this seem fair or equitable to you?
mistereks, you're right it is a stretch but based on the precedent that has been set it would be hard to refuse this person the right to refuse issuing licenses to white people.
mistereks, the issue I was speaking to was not if these lawsuits have any merit but the fact that allowing same-sex marriage has instigated these lawsuits. And at this point in time, no pun intended, but the jury is still out on whether or not these lawsuits have merit and the fact that lawsuits cost both money and time for all concerned parties. Like you I believe these lawsuits will be thrown out but at the same time they are being brought before the California judicial system and we saw what they just did.
Religious people surely understand the Homosexuals!!! Scripture states that they are in need of salvation, by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ!!! This is the woof and warp of it!!!
Here's a question for you.
Let's say Lewis Farrakhan instructs his followers that it is sinful for white people to drive. A bit of a stretch, I realize, but he's said some crazy things.
Could a follower of Farrkhan's who works for the DMV refuse to issue driver's licenses to white folks, and cite "religious belief" as their reason for not performing their duty?
Believer -
The Catholic church does not allow divorced people to marry in its churches.
The Mormon church only allows members in good standing to marry in their temples.
Churches will still have the right to deny marriage to anyone they wish. People can sue all they want. Suing successfully? That's something different.
ifeelfine, did you not read the article or are you saying Benjamin Bull, ADF, is lying?
RevAnderson: So is eating shellfish.
believer: Please cite these lawsuits of churchs getting sued for not performing same-sex marriages.
JC: You're wrong, its not accept it all or accept none of it - share with me one verse in the entire Bible that states its to be taken literally? Just one?
No matter what, or how, you say it; Homosexuality is an Abomination in the eyes of Jehovah.
So, why would you expect a Church established on the Holy Bible to perform a service asking Jehovah to "Bless an Abomination"? That is just Nonsense and tells me that it is just being used to further muddy the waters in our country.
Common Sense and Respect for others is awful one-sided now.
mike2685, I knew I got those numbers wrong on another post, but I think the difference in this issue is the in your face approach being used by both sides of the issue. As a result those on both sides of the issue have no choice but to respond, unfortunately that is not always a pretty sight to behold. And you know already that I think honest dialogue is the best solution, but as I've said before for me personally I love a good fight as long as we all agree to fight fair.
lina, one thing you've been saying all along is that okay we'll call them same-sex unions that way you Christians can keep discriminating against homosexuals and not marry them in your churches. And yet as I read this article one of the board members reports that lawsuits are being brought against churches who refuse to perform these same-sex services. As much as you disagree with our views can you not see how we're being forced to go against those views or face legal action if we don't?
chicago24, that is a good question, I've got to go to one of those weddings next month and I'm not looking forward to it, but when I tell people, even Christians, they say well at least their making it right and I want to scream no they're not, it won't be made right until they make it right with God by acknowledging their sin and repenting of it and asking God's forgiveness. I think that is why statistics show that over 75% of marriages that began with cohabitation end in divorce. As a pastor, I encouraged couples in this situation to make things right between them and God before they wed in order to ensure they would have a strong healthy marriage.
David,
"Mr. Perkins lacks the moral authority to be a valid honest broker on this issue. He spoken before white supremacist organization."
That's a interesting charge. Which one? When?
"Moreover, in spite of it all, he continues to disingenuously frame this as a controversy over religious liberty."
It's not about religious liberty? Ask the pastor in Denmark who was jailed for preaching what the Bible says about homosexuality. As the photographer who was sued for following his conscience and not shooting a gay wedding. Is religious liberty not part of the equation?
The article: "Can you imagine if you are a black person and it is like, "ok, well no, I don't server black people but this person will," Feldblum said.
As far as history has proved, no civilization has ever been judged by having black people as residents. However, the same cannot be said for homosexual civilizations.
Sometimes forget history, and go their own way.
Beloved, one can believe that God sanctions this, or sanctions that, but in the end, what does God's track record of tolerance prove?
God says that His word will not return to Him void. Every letter of the law will be carried out before His return. This, at the very least, should make us all examine where we are and how we conduct ourselves. Each one of us is guilty of sin, and none of us have any position on which to stand to judge others, except one. His word. As we will all be judged by this someday. No exceptions. Not one.
Either you believe it all, or reject it all. It cannot and will not be separated and parsed out to fit lifesytles, regardless of how the person feels.
The decision is and always has been ours. Either we reject it all, or we accept it all. There is no other way.
The article: âĆ¢āĀ¬Ć āCan you imagine if you are a black person and it is like, âĆ¢āĀ¬Ć āOk, well no, I donâĆ¢āĀ¬Ć¢āĀ¢t serve black people but this person will,âĆ¢āĀ¬ĆĀ Feldblum said.
As far as history has proved, no civilization has ever been judged by having black people as residents. However, the same cannot be said for homosexual civilizations.
Sometimes people forget history, and go their own way.
Beloved, one can believe that God sanctions this, or sanctions that, but in the end, what does God's track record of tolerance prove?
God says that His word will not return to Him void. Every letter of the law will be carried out before His return. This, at the very least, should make us all examine where we are and how we conduct ourselves. Each one of us is guilty of sin, and none of us have any position on which to stand to judge others, except one. His word. As we will all be judged by this someday. No exceptions. Not one.
Either you believe it all, or reject it all. It cannot and will not be separated and parsed out to fit lifesytles, regardless of how the person feels.
The decision is and always has been ours. Either we reject it all, or we accept it all. There is no other way.
Mr. Perkins lacks the moral authority to be a valid honest broker on this issue. He spoken before white supremacist organization. Moreover, in spite of it all, he continues to disingenuously frame this as a controversy over religious liberty.
This guy spends 24x7x365 calling gay people evil, perverted and sick. Now he wants to position himself at the center of meaningful discussion. I don't think so.
Amen jsaljsalj, very well said!
I do think that it is important to understand that, well at least for me, homosexuality is a big issue because it is or is a big part of the anti-christ movement. Look at the freedoms the saints are being stripped of so that a sinner can live sinfully. How long before the gay church thinks they are doing God a favor by persecuting the intolerable christian? I think it is a very good thing that this is talked about, unfortunately everyone can't get passed their anger and disgust to keep it civil.
I believe that compromising is a sure way to receive the "MARK". I won't compromise my faith in God and His Word because someone's feelings are hurt because they don't understand the spirit that has taken hold of their mind and body.
God Bless, be prayerful and Watch.
gary47290,
I sense the sincerity in your post, so I will attempt to explain my reasoning. I have examined the issue for myself, studying the Bible as well as other books. If I come to the same conclusion as others have done, does that make my position less defensible? No.
You wrote, "Many Christians have done this, and concluded the being Gay is not a sin, and that Gay people in committed relationships can be in communion with God and the Church."
I would argue that "many" is a relative term, and no where near a majority of Christians. But even if it was, morality for a Christian is not a matter of majority rules.
"Jewish purity code law" may be fulfilled by Christ, but prohibitions of homosexuality extend through the New Testament as well, so they are still in effect.
I pray you receive this in the spirit offered. God bless you.
wbmoore--
I concur. Lina seems to be a very hurt and angry person. If she hates Christianity so much, why is she actively seeking out a Christian web forum to post on? I think she's looking for something, because she appears to be a very lost, empty soul inside.
I have to say, there most certainly is some gray area here, and both sides can talk very openly about this, but only if they are willing. I am gay, but went to a Catholic college. I certainly met many people who swore up and down that my entire being was sinful, but gradually through knowing me, I changed their minds. Similarly, I went to the college with the idea that all Catholics were close minded and didn't think for themselves, but I actually had some very open and honest conversations that were extremely enlightening with priests there. To say there is no way to have a discussion truly comes down to choosing to remain ignorant. What the other side might have to say could make your blood boil until your dying day, but that is truly why I am on this site so often. There are many on here who choose to throw Bible verse after Bible verse at me hoping it will burn me like Holy Water, but I have also conversed with some who have been very enlightening, and have also heard me out. I think both sides need to strive to do that. If we can't change each other's mind, we can most certainly change each other's hatred (and there are plenty of Christians in here claiming they show no hatred, but I would argue some of you do!)
Think about this: The creators of this website have chosen to single out homosexuality. When you go to the "church" tab, there is a section on homosexuality. When you go to the "society" tab, there is a section on gay issues. How is it that the Christian community chooses to make this a bigger issue than world hunger or the incredibly high murder rate in this country? It seems to me someone has their value system backwards, and its not me!
Lina-
Always be encouraged by the fact that God loves you so much that even if you were the only one on this earth, He would still send His Son, Jesus to die for your sins.
Peace & Grace,
SqueakyWheel
lina--
Why are you here?
Don: I might be too late in replying to this, but I'll do my best.
Think about it for a second, all saints sin - but does that give us a free ticket to sin?
I think your position is more discredible than mine.
I am amazed at how "catholic" all you Bible worshippers are on the Gay issue. The defining aspect of the protestant reformation was that we evaluate and interpret the Bible ourselves, not relying on "the priest".
Many Christians have done this, and concluded the being Gay is not a sin, and that Gay people in committed relationships can be in communion with God and the Church.
Why do you insist that the handful of passages traditionally interpreted as anti-Gay still should have this, but the rest of Jewish purity code law is dependent on the time and culture of ancient Israel?
Jesus is weeping at your lack of faith.
Lina, your anger and hurt pours out through your posts. I am sorry some religious folks hurt you. Please know God still loves you, and is waiting for you to accept His embrace.
Breadbox - do you not see that gay relationships are not second class in this country? That does not bother you? Can you provide on scientifically-based objection to same-sex relationships? There are none whatsoever. As mentioned yourself, you have more homework to do. I have done mine. Why haven't you done yours?
Actually I prefer to call myself "spiritual". Religioisness is just a set of rules with no meaning. I've found the bible to have much meaning =]
Why are you judging religious people? No one here has judges you.
Well it depends on what you mean by better off. And it also depends on how many people they've had encounters with. If homosexuality is a matter of "hormonal levels being different" than it would also mean the sex drive is higher which would most likely put them at a higher risk. Straight people can have this drive too. To be honest, I would have to do more research.
Is there a reason you're asking this?
Referencing a sky-fairy or claiming to be able interpret the opinions, likes, and dislikes of this invisible leprechaun should not presented as "proof" against same-sex marriage. Period. Gay men and women have tangible lives the consequences of your Bible-thumping are real.
The bottom line is this: There should be no talks between the religious and the secular. The religious have nothing to add, contribute, or say really. Regurgitating ridiculous Bible verse isn't philosophy or truth. It's annoying. The religious should be mocked for their views and permanently muzzled as to not disrupt progress, either scientific or socioeconomic.
So are lesbians better off than straight couples then?
*higher risk for STDs
Yes. Anyone can get diseases overtime. Though people who are more promiscoius have a higher risk.
I could do that for you, Lina. If you'd read what's below your post.
Breadbox - think about your logic for just a second. They "can" get diseases over time. So can straight couples get diseases over time?
Can any of the religious here comment without referencing your holy books? That is, have you ever formulated your own thought?
From what I know from my study of the bible on this subject and what I know about cleanliness (physically speaking in this instance), if God loves us he wants us to be healthy. Everything in the bible is NOT for God's benefit, it's for ours. There are serious consequences that come from being involved in sexual activity, and in cases of same-sex, it's a disease factor.
Now I am not saying all homosexual people have diseases, but over time they can develop. Its been proven. And its isn't just physical diseases like STDs there's something very, very, destructive that harms the mind as well and ultimately harms the soul. Sin is a disease of the soul and has brought about many, many, tragedies.
The ten commandments keep you out of trouble. If you don't lie, steal, commit adultry, covet, etc. than no one can accuse you of doing so. And most importantly, you have a clean concience and a firm knowledge of where you are going after your short time on earth.
jsaljsalj
Way of the Master, I agree.
Homosexuality not a worse sin. Yes and no.
No, it is not a "worse" sin in that the cost for redemption was the life of Jesus on the cross. And God can and does forgive our sin when we repent and believe the gospel. The work of the Spirit powerfully works in the heart, and people really can change. And we all need change. Sin is sin.
However, homosexuality is a severe sin. Rape and murder are also severe.
There are "depths" to depravity. While anger and murder are both sin because they break the Law of God, they are not the "same" sin. Homosexuality seems to be pretty complex, as it is unnatural and often associated with dysfunctional relationships and experiences.
Romans 1 puts this as a spiritual and physical sin, and in terms of God's judgment. Those who pursue unrighteousness and lawlessness do step deeper into their own depravity's depths, and they are at risk of God's giving them over. I take that to mean a specific loss of conscience and natural affection.
I appreciate your passionate appeal and simply wanted to give opportunity for you to give some thought to these matters.
While I understand the motivation behind the desire to table these issues, I don't see much good coming out of it. Remember, when we speak of Christianity, the Bible cautions "the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing," and also "the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned." I love the ministry of Way of the Master (led by Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron) because it circumvents these intellectual discussions that go round and round and yield little fruit. But the Word of God is sharper than any two edged sword, and can pierce the heart. How can you reason with anyone whose ears are deaf to the Lord without the Spirit first bringing them to repentance?
Understand, though, having said all that (I wish that my brothers and sisters within the Church would GET this) -- homosexuality is not an unpardonable sin! Homosexuality is not a worse sin than the one you, my brother, have committed, are committing, and will commit! Just because you personally find it icky or distasteful doesn't negate the fact that your sin cost just as much CRUCIFIXION as your gay neighbor's sin. You want to sit at the table and have a conversation on tolerance, an attempt to find common ground? Well, here's a suggestion... love your neighbors as yourselves. Invite them to the place where you worship. Both of you sinners kneel in common ground at the foot of the cross and ask forgiveness of the Lord. And then the world looking on will see (hopefully) the love you have "one for another" and will thereby know that you are truly the children of God. It seems to me God needs not only to be in the room for this conversation to work, but He needs to be the initiator, the moderator, the facilitator, the mediator, etc... Consider the dirty feet of the disciples when Jesus knelt and started washing them. Do you really think this was a lesson in whose feet are dirtier? No. How do we wash each other in this day and age? We do it with the water of the Word. Without it, we labor in futility.
"I wonder what would happen if a gay clerk refused to issue a marriage license to a couple he knew had been living together 'in sin'?"
Well, to not let the couple get married would only mean to further the length of their sin (assuming you're talking about pre-marital sex which I'm sure you are). So by letting them get married they are no longer sinning. As paul said:
1 Corinthians 7:9
"But if they can't control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It's better to marry than to burn with lust."
matthewr1
that is a demeaning reply, especially from a religion that maintains everyone is a sinner steeped in sin. you are tagging an entire group as being of one mind. not a very creditable proposition.
Good question Chicago. The answer is, it wouldn't happen. People who are steeped in sin almost always approve of other people sinning. The gay clerk would probably join the wedding reception too.
I think it comes down to who we think knows best: God or us. That is the struggle being seen here. God's tools are love, prayer, forgiveness, reconciliation, healing, unity. Clandestine agendas, renegade judges and politicians, hostile combatants...these are not of God.
I wonder what would happen if a gay clerk refused to issue a marriage license to a couple he knew had been living together "in sin"?
What's with all this 'gay' talk? This site is starting to bother me. I could give a rip of 'just trying to understand one another'.
There is no common ground to be found here. Some issues are black and white, you're simply on one side or the other. This is one of those issues. It's a cultural "line in the sand" and one side is hell bent on crossing it, and the other side is determined not to let them. That's just the way certain issues go, and this is one of the biggest issues of the day. In the end, if the homosexuals succeed, you can be sure that it is a major milestone in the decline and fall of Western Civilization.