There is a tremendous hunger among young people for the message Exodus International preaches – that freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ is possible, according to the ministry's head.
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(Photo: Exodus International / Caryn Davis)Hundreds attend Exodus International's 2007 Freedom Conference, an annual event that draws people who are impacted by homosexuality, at Concordia University in Irvine, Calif. This year, the event is taking place in Asheville, N.C.
Exodus International, which claims to be the world's largest Christian referral and information network dealing with homosexual issues, is holding its annual Freedom Conference in Asheville, N.C., beginning Tuesday. For 33 years, Exodus has seen thousands of people seek answers at its conference as they, or loved ones, struggle with same-sex feelings.
Over 700 people, including many from outside the United States, are expected to attend this year's Freedom event. Part of this year's speaker line-up is evangelist Anne Graham Lotz, daughter of Billy Graham.
"We are always trying to bring in respected Christian leaders to our conference," commented Alan Chambers, president of Exodus International, to The Christian Post. "It's also a chance to introduce them to an often overlooked ministry group-people who struggle with unwanted same-sex attraction."
The ministry's annual conference caters to a wide range of groups, from men and women, youth and parents, to married couples where a spouse has homosexual attraction. Forty percent of this year's conference attendees are men and women personally struggling and 14 percent are youths.
And this year's event comes just months after the California high court ruling that legalized same-sex "marriage," and months before California voters head to the polls in November to decide whether to overturn the court decision and protect traditional marriage.
"While the culture wars over the issue of homosexuality are hotter than ever with the marriage issue, Exodus is growing and more people are seeking help," Chambers said.
The Exodus International network has grown by 71 percent in five years, Chambers noted. The ministry has over 120 local ministries in the country and Canada is also linked with other Exodus world regions outside of North America, totaling over 150 ministries in 17 countries, according to the Exodus Web site.
But with growth, Exodus continues to meet protesters especially around this time of year when it holds its Freedom Conference. A group of local gay rights advocates, who are calling themselves Equality Asheville, plan to sponsor a series of events titled "You're Fine Just the Way You Are," according to Asheville's Citizen-Times.
Noel Nickel, who's organizing the competing events, wants to give people the "whole spectrum."
“I think (Exodus’) intentions are harmful, because it’s cloaked in the message of love,” Nickel said, as reported by the local newspaper. “We’re trying to make sure that there is a full spectrum of educational aspects."
Jaye Thomas, who turned away from homosexuality with support from Exodus, acknowledged that Exodus "is no stranger to opposition."
"But neither was Jesus," he said. "Exodus is not in the business of converting anyone. We just offer a hand to walk beside people who want freedom from the bondage of sexual addiction.”
Many have found "freedom" from homosexual feelings through Exodus. But in addition to serving those personally struggling, Exodus has also helped family members and pastors learn how to love their loved ones or congregants who are struggling with gay or lesbian attraction.
"There is a right to choose one’s passage in life," Chambers, who left homosexuality more than 14 years ago, told the Citizen-Times. "I didn’t choose those feelings [of same-sex attraction], but when I was old enough, I did choose my behavior."
This year's Freedom Conference on July 15-20 is themed "A New Day" and 41 percent of conference participants are reportedly attending for the first time.
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mike2685, thanks for responding and we'll talk soon and have a great Lord's Day tomorrow, believer
Let's be honest, there are some people you can just tell, ya know? However, I have never asked a guy out without first checking with people around him to see if he is gay. There are some guys who may be questioning their sexual orientation who would take offense to being asked out because they're still in denial, it used to happen with me, ha.
mike2685, a lot of the questions I'm asking are simply my curiousity so please forgive me if I inadvertently offend you. You said you would never come on to a man unless he was homosexual, do you believe you can tell this by simply seeing a man that he is or is not homosexual? If, so can you explain how?
I had posted before but for whatever reason it was deleted. I would never come on to a man I knew to be straight, but sure, I could find him attractive and even be turned on by him, just as I'm sure you could find other women attractive and maybe even be turned on by them despite the fact that they're off limits to you.
mike2685, I know this might sound weird, but are your experiences of being turned on as you put it by the Baywatch guy normal for a homosexual male? I've heard there are some who say a homosexual can tell who is and who isn't a homosexual and therefore would only choose to come on to another homosexual, but it appears you're saying they may not be so?
Believer, at the time I knew that I would get sexually excited by the guy I saw on Baywatch, and no, I have never had that sort of infatuation for a girl. When I dated girls, I was fooling myself, when i dated guys, it was like a light when on and i realized "Aha! This is what was missing"
Mike2685, you never had that same infatuation with a girl as a little boy? I mean you didn't see a girl who you thought was cute and you'd like to get to know? Plus was your infatuation for the Baywatch guy sexual?
My first boyfriend who I was completely smitten with had just moved out to California and my heart was broken, I couldn't eat, couldn't sleep...really only wanted to listen to sappy love songs and cry. That week I was going on a mission trip with my church youth group. The first night we were there, we had mass as a group on the beach, and during the homily the priest was talking about how Jesus wants us to come to him in the Eucharist. He was giving examples of how Jesus knows our hearts, and he said "I don't know, maybe your best friend just moved across the country and you're worried you'll never see them again...Jesus understands, and he loves you." This priest knew nothing of my situation, at that moment, I knew without a doubt that Jesus was speaking through him directly to me. I have never, in all my life, felt so incredibly close to Jesus, and to this day it blows me away that he was in the room with me, talking to me and telling me to bring my pain to him.
believer, I think that is evidence that you were turned on by what you saw at such a young age, even though you didn't truly understand it. Like I said when I was 9, I didn't know what being gay was, but I knew I got "excited" when the male lifeguard came on Baywatch. I don't think it was a "lifestyle I adopted" but rather an orientation I was born with.
I was baptized into the Catholic Church as an infant, which is customary. My parents sent me to Catholic school starting in 2nd grade and we went to Church every sunday. I didn't truly find my faith until my junior year of high school when a friend asked me to go on a weekend retreat called Emmaus, and it changed my life. For the first time I saw people who weren't praying the regular, every Sunday Catholic prayers, but rather they were talking to Jesus like he was a friend who invited them out for coffee, and that blew me away. That weekend the way I prayed and the relationship I had with Jesus grew monumentally. Of course, I still had doubts every now and then, but my senior year Jesus proved to me he is real (continued...)
mike2685, you've shared some of your sexual journey with us and I appreciate your willingness to do that, but I was wondering if you'd be willing to share how you became a Christian with us, thanks believer
mike2685, when I was in the 3rd grade I by accident found my Dad's porn books and they were hardcore porn at that. I had no clue what I was looking at, heck I never knew what a period was until the 7th grade, but even at 8 years old I liked what I saw and I would take every opportunity I could to go back and look even though I honestly did not know what I was looking at. I believe our sexual development goes on when we are very young and we don't even know it. We do a lot of things in life as kids and don't understand that it is impacting our development toward adulthood to include our sexual identity. You may not have known you were going to become or that you were a homosexual, but you were making decisions that led you to adopt that lifestyle, the same way I did not know I would have a problem with porn and by some standards may even be considered a porn addict, but I did make decisions that led to that and can still cause me problems if I don't stay away from it.
I knew a woman who loved a man who was married. She stopped the relationship before it got further out of hand.
I know a woman who thought herself lesbian. She no longer believes this and is happily married - she is my wife.
Just because we think something is, does not make it so. Just because something seems like it will never change does not mean it will stay the same. Just because someone loves does not mean it should be pursued.
Mike
paul said that a celilbate person can do more for Christ than any other person. Maybe you are the way you are, so you can be used by God in a way no committed man could.
mike
next question is this before or after you found out men dated men?
So living celibately, which is unnatural and quite frankly unhealthy, is God's plan for me? I'm glad the merciful and loving God created me to live a miserable life.
I'm attracted to quite a few things...still, I don't persue them. It is quite natural to have many attractions. Many of them are inborn traits. We all know this from personal experience.
Here's the problem: the nature we are born with is not Gods nature-it is the sin nature. Our sinful nature, present in all of us, pulls us away from Godliness in the path of least resistance. For some it is greed. For some it is violence. For some it is power. For some it is some form of sexual 'devience' which in the Biblical case is any form of sexual behavior that is not in line with God's design. (I live in the mountains of the Carolinas and I can tell you there is all kinds of 'devience' that is not homosexual.)
This is the basis of the points I've been trying to make. There are as many 'natural' ways to deviate from God's plan as there are people. There is only one way to be Godly and that is HIS way.
If He hadn't spelled out His plan in the Bible I might has well have just deep 6'ed life all together as being clueless. It is only by dying to self (aka what is natural) and living for Him that brings Godliness into one's life.
James, my earliest recollection was being about 4th grade, about when puberty was starting to happen, and feeling absolutely smitten for one of the (male) lifeguards on Baywatch (PS, I just embarrassed myself, haha!) That being said, I didn't realize I was what you would call gay, I thought it was what every boy felt for some reason. In highschool, I did date girls, but the true feelings that I felt when i thought about dating a guy (butterflies, picturing a future together, etc.) just weren't there with girls.
mike
at what point in life did you feel attracted to men.
believer, how could I choose to be gay before I knew what being gay was?
mike2685, you assume because you are sexually attracted to males alone you were born homosexual from a predetermined view. What I wonder is it possible to be born with a predisposition toward homosexuality. If the latter is true that would mean that you still have to choose to adopt that lifestyle. Which means that if as a young boy your were led to believe that your were homosexual you in essence were given permission to buy into the predisposition you were born with. And the younger a person believes he/she is a homosexual the more difficult to fight that predisposition.
God chose Mary because of her faithfulness and her heart and found favor in her because of that. the bible clearly says to pray in Jesus name and that the Holy spirit intercedes on your behalf relentlessly without stopping. Christ was the last High Priest and God tore the veil in two so that we could have a direct relationship with him through Christ. It is the Spirit that convicts us and scripture that shows us how to change. The catholic Priest can not judge one sin greater than the other for all are equal, therefor he can not justify one hail Mary to ten hail Marys based on judgement. For all sin is equal and took the death of Christ to be forgiven.
I have to be honest, I didn't follow your question whatsoever :)
mike2685, you said sexual attraction is an inborn trait as opposed to a learned trait. But I wonder if that would depend on the age of the person when he/she decided they were either heterosexual or homosexual. It seems that the younger a person is when they make this determination would have an earlier impact on one's sexual attraction and if sexual attraction is a predisposed concept then if one is being led to believe they are homosexual the tendency to move in that direction is even easier. But because it is a predisposed as opposed to predetermined trait a person still has to choose to buy into that lifestyle. What do you think?
believer, were you talking about the posts with gender assumptions and enforcing stereotypes? I think they were interesting, however, I was acting more feminine before anyone ever made fun of me and called me a f**. I was feeling like there was something different long before I had any idea that men dated men, but once I found out, I knew that I shared that attraction. While I think many people could say "Oh, you got made fun of in middle school" I don't think sexual attraction is just something you can make up, and that's because I did date a few girls in high school, one for 11 months were there was a bit more than making out going on. The thing is, in the back of my mind I knew I was fooling myself and just trying to go through the motions. The attraction wasn't there, and I really do think that if I continued to pursue women, at some point in my marriage I would wake up with no attraction or intimacy, and that wouldn't be fair to either partner.
To a degree, I think people telling you that you're gay could make you think "OK, yea, I must be gay then," but I don't think the attraction would be true. You might experiment with another guy, but I know plenty of guys, and girls for that matter, who admit to kissing or doing more with a same sex friend and are completely straight because there just wasn't anything there.
To clear up some things about Catholicism (I went 2nd grade through college in Catholic schools, but I don't have all the answers, so this is my best attempt:) Mary was viewed as being without sin because God needed someone so pure to birth his only Son. Mary is believed to be without sin, but we never pray to her to ask for forgiveness. I'm not sure where the idea of laughing at asking Jesus to forgive our sins came from, Reconciliation is a fundamental sacrament tied into receiving the Eucharist at Mass. In Reconciliation, you confess to Jesus through the priest who is acting "In persona Christi" or "In the person of Christ." Its basically so that someone who is your leader in the footsteps of Christ can be there and help you pray for forgiveness.
Catholics DO NOT worship the saints. We elevate people to sainthood only after very stringent rules, such as having (I think) 2 miracles performed in their presence, like a miraculous healing or the Virgin Mother appearing. When we pray the rosary, we are asking Mary to pray for us as sinners and to intercede as the Mother of Jesus. We believe she does this as she was able to convince him to perform his first miracle (turning water into wine at the wedding.)
When we have the Eucharist, we believe we are receiving Christ fully present (not that we are actually eating his skin, but that the Holy Spirit is there in the meal.) It is done as Jesus instructed "Do this in memory of me."
I hope I shed a little light on the subject, feel free to ask questions. Again, I have been through a lot of Catholic school, but still have many questions myself.
The Catholic faith is a bit of a paradox when you discuss it with them. I know people raised Catholic and they were taught to and laughed at the concept of Christianity where you asked Jesus for forgiveness. Yet they rely on His death for the forgiveness. They elevate Mary to the Holy Mother. They worship humans as Saints.
I do not find any of these concepts in the Bible. Mary was the product of 2 humans (mom and dad). Jesus was the product of the Holy Spirit. This makes Jesus different from any other human including Mary.
As to the point, I think putting humans (like Mary) in the position of being able to forgive sins makes man appear less 'totally depraved' then the Bible states. It brings comfort that we really aren't that bad.
This is the basis of much in the religion of christianity to day. I understand there are even Baptists and Presbyterians preaching there is no hell. The question of Mary may be one of the first examples of revisionist theology.
james, you're speaking to a former Catholic and to be honest the issue of why Mary could not die for our sins was not discussed and even though there is no biblical record of her ascending into heaven, Catholics are taught that she did.
Then how do they reconcile that it took a sinnless person to die for them, for if Mary was sinless God would not to have sent his Son to die. She could have died for us, or God would have had his answer then, that Mary is the only one worthy of being with Him. To be born without sin is to say Mary is God, because all humans are born into sin. Second were in the bible is Mary ascended to heaven, if she had no sin she would not die, for it is sin that causes death.
wb and james, that Mary like the rest of us was a sinner is not taught by the Catholics, so Christ would not have died for her sins since she had no sin.
James Reynolds
"Why do you think Catholics pray and ask forgiveness to Mary, for she was human just like us and had sin in her. Christ had to die for his mother just as well."
excellent question!
DP
I agree all sin is equal at the foot of the cross. Question for you? Why do you think Catholics pray and ask forgiveness to Mary, for she was human just like us and had sin in her. Christ had to die for his mother just as well.
Mike
Homosexuality has been considered sin since Christianity started, and even before Christ came. Only in recent times has this been questioned. The earliest of churches knew what Paul meant in 1 Cor. I would tend to think that the people closest to the time of Paul and heard his teaching would have a better grasp of what that meant. If you have proof that the earliest churches did not view it as sin, I would be interested in seeing it. Thanks
"homosexuality is not a grave sin."
Hi, Mike! It's an interesting perspective. We as mankind like to view our sins as 'non-grave' and others sins we greatly disagree with as 'grave'. Still, the point of the gospel is that every sin, no matter how 'grave' put Jesus in the grave. That's the bottom line. In the eyes of God homosexuality is just as bad as murder, shoplifting a 10 cent piece of candy or cheating on taxes. It required Jesus going to the grave for it.
mike2685, talk to my response I shared with you yesterday as I'm curious to hear your thoughts, thanks believer
John, homosexuality is not a grave sin. Killing people is a grave sin, molesting children is a grave sin...the fact that homosexuality is a sin I wouldn't call sound doctrine, seeing as how much controversy there is even within religious communities. Please get off your high horse.
God is using this issue to separate the sheep from the goats, the faithful from those with itching ears who refuse to hear sound doctrine.
Everyone who hears the word of God, knows that homosexuality is a grave sin, and will seek a way out of such a repellent and self-destructive lifestyle.
ifeelfine, it is not the literal interpretation of the Bible that gets you all those things, it is when people take the verses out of context that you can come to those conclusions. And please don't insinuate that the only people who do this are those of us who believe that the Bible in it's original autographs is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God.
Daniel Paul - you're making the assumption that your hermeneutic is correct. To make an analogy just this morning I heard someone making incredibly racist statements (using the N-word - the whole bit) and he was using the Bible to justify those statements. He was reading right from the Bible and it certainly sounded like God was against black people etc - obviously we all know that isn't the case but he made a pretty strong case. To me, that is what a literal interpretation of the Bible gets you - racism, bigotry, misogyny, etc. You have to read into the Bible to see God's love - it really is a beatiful book and a wonderful story but when you take those snipplets - it makes God look pretty bigotted. . . just my humble opinion. God bless.
mike
"Now that I am with my partner, the love and emotional attachments we have for one another is better than any kind of sex we could have, and if we do share sexual intimacy, it feels beautiful, loving, caring, not just a rush get off and go home (I apologize if that came across as crude.)
"
Mike I have to wonder why you do not feel filthy after having sex with your parnter even though you are not be promiscuis, because rather you are or not you are still sinning for you are having pre-marrital sex which is sinful. You should still feel filthy, or satan is using your feelings to justify what you are doing. The question to ponder is why that filthtyness feeling left even in the event you think homosexuality isn't sinful. Maybe you are not truly hearing what God wants you to hear because you already justified it. I read your views on Exodus international on how you don't feel it is current to this cultures thinking. Just a thought, but what if God wants you to come to grips with your sin to start a ministry of your own to help out men in this sinful desire based on your experience and triumph. The main guy at Exodus is relevent to his time and experience, you maybe relevent to your time. Just as God said to queen Ester you your made for such a time as this. remember she went through many things she did not want to go through, but she was the right person at the right time with the right experiences.
Mike & ifeelfine72. A couple of things. First the Bible says we don't live by our feelings but through the knowledge of our Lord. Second, the Spririt does not contradict himself. He would not confirm in I Cor that sodomy is wrong only to tell you otherwise. If that could be then there would be no reason to even read the Bible now would there?
Also, all mankind is predisposed to sin...whichever sin is attractive to us. As Christians know their Lord better they become more attracted to Him and less attracted to sin. This is why Romans 12 says to be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
"2) the attitude of Daniel Paul is one of arrogance and pride about ministry methods, and 3) Daniel Paul and you complaining about it I believe is wrong."
Sorry you feel that way. If people have the right to post their opinion and we shouldn't call people on it like I did igh...then your own post concerning me condemns you for you are doing the exact same thing you accuse me of doing wrong. Should be then be agressive towards sinners and passive to other Christians? NO! We should be assertive towards sin.
He who has an ear....
also, "spamming his stuff doesn't shut down dialogue and the percent of memory space it takes up in the memory of CP's computers is extremely small to the point of being close to zero."
Apparently you were not around when pages of posts were falling off the end of threads. The system was wiping out pages of posts so YES, when igh would post 4 or more full length posts of just Bible verses it WAS causing a problem! It would have been helpful if you had asked instead of passing judgement.
I don’t know how God will minister to your specific needs. I don’t know. I’m not in your shoes. But we all need to un-learn all the garbage that this world has taught us about relationship, about sexuality, about God’s perspective on sexuality. The Church at large has been unwilling to discuss, and – you know what – the Church also needs to un-learn a lot of its preconceptions about God’s perspective on sexuality. We are ALL OF US incredibly messed up. I have (literally) been breathing in garbage my entire life, and it may take a little time for me to trust God enough so that I can (as the Bible exhorts) “be transformed by the renewing of your mind.â€Â
One final thought… celibacy is not a miserable existence. For you, it may be. For me, I personally can’t imagine it. I don’t know that God would have blessed us with a healthy libido and then ask us to be celibate. I don’t know. He might, but I don’t think so. There is something called the gift of celibacy which some people do have. I don’t have it. I have to admit, though, as God has grown me a little bit at a time (IN SPITE OF MYSELF) over the past five years, SEX is less important to me than it once was. I’m not saying that I don’t still desire. I certainly do. But I also desire the things of the Lord. I desire to honor him in EVERY area of my life… and that will be a constant battle. As a Christian, I personally apologize to you if anyone has ever led you to think that Christianity would be anything other than a daily battle. Paul writes that the flesh wars against the spirit, and that he has to beat the flesh into submission DAILY. “Oh wretched men am I! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ!â€Â
Thank you for hearing me out, Mike. God bless you. I pray that He continues to reveal Himself to you and surround you with His presence and His peace.
Another assumption you make is that you will always feel as you do now. You will always feel, think, and desire as you do now. But, my friend Mike (I know I don’t know you, but I really hope my words come across as sincere and encouraging)… when you were a child, you thought as a child, you sought after childish things; now that you are an adult, you have (MAYBE) put away childish things. Please hear me – when I was a child, I desired a friend, a best friend, and I had a notion of what that would look like. Later on, as friendships developed, I had to re-examine some of my preconceptions about what a true friendship would entail and what a true friendship would COST. Even now, I tell myself I desire a wife, a companion, a best friend, someone to respect me, someone who would enjoy my jokes and my company, someone whose eyes would light up when I enter a room, someone to hold, someone to enjoy sexually, someone whose beauty would never fade in my eyes. Interestingly enough, I am asking of this future wife SOMETHING THAT I ALREADY HAVE in Jesus Christ. I am placing a rather heavy burden on this future wife of fulfilling needs that Jesus wants to meet. Also, I am placing a rather tall order of requests upon this future wife with little thought of the list that SHE’S MAKING of which I will be expected to fulfill.
Does that make sense? One of the reasons for divorce is that people come together with these list of needs that each expects the other to fulfill, omitting God from the equation entirely. May I submit – with all due respect to my fellow contributors (especially those who are married) - THIS IS SIN. It isn’t merely a question of sexuality. That is an incredibly small, TINY, infinitesimal piece of the puzzle. You don’t have to be homosexual to dishonor God in relationship. We can dishonor God (or leave Him out) of marriage, relationship, friendship, business partnership. The question is how do we honor God in every area of our lives?
When I first accepted Jesus as my Savior a little over five years ago, my desires were different than they are now, Mike. There are things that are VERY important to me right now that – five years ago – I could care less about. You assume that – in order to be a Christian - you will be need to be partner-less for the remainder of your life, or that you will never be able to engage in sexual intimacy. Where do you think such a thought would come from? Where do you think the idea comes from that God is holding out on you, that God wants your life to be a miserable existence? Understand, Mike, God did not even withhold His Son from you. Jesus stripped Himself of everything, of divinity, to walk in flesh, to walk in the physical, and – maybe even most important - TO REMAIN IN THE PHYSICAL so that one day you will be able to touch Him, you will be able to hold Him, you will be able to hug Him.
(third post to follow...)
Mike2685, you pose some very, very good questions in your recent comments. I do feel compelled to share my thoughts in hopes of encouraging you. I had actually planned not to comment anymore on this site just because of the undercurrent of hostility evident (even between brothers/sisters) in some of the previous comments. Didn’t want to add fuel to the unfortunate fire.
I understand the issue of the day is sexual sin, but I think we can lose perspective if we focus too greatly on any specific sin or vice. There is a temptation to adopt the attitude of a Pharisee in proclaiming “thank you, God, for not making me as BIG a sinner as THOSE homosexuals over there.†Rather, let each us judge ourselves soberly and come to the foot of the cross where our heads, our hearts, our wills are bowed in EQUAL and desperate need of mercy.
The liar, the coward, the money launderer, the nice ol’ lady down the street who does nice things for people… are all destined for HELL. There is none righteous. Not one. There is none who seek God. Man’s righteousness (of his own making) is nothing but filthy rags. As the great and highly revered (maybe even too highly revered) Apostle Paul wrote “who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!â€Â
Your question – “why would God allow Satan to corrupt me through some early life experience to make me gay, which would in turn make me end up without a partner for my entire life because to love that partner with sexual intimacy would be sinful?†Excellent question, my friend. But I think you are making a false assumption here. There is a popular belief that in infancy there is innocence, but I do not believe you will find this anywhere in scripture. We are all sons of Adam, understand; we have inherited a sin NATURE. Consider this – does anyone need to teach an infant to LIE? Does anyone need to teach an infant to COVET? Does anyone need to teach an infant what PRIDE is?
(second post to follow...)
mike2685, in the Air Force I taught classes in race relations. We used the movie, "The Eye Of The Storm" to teach how quickly we can develop prejudices. It was a documentary about a teacher who wanted to teach her 3rd or 4th graders what prejudice was. She came in one morning and told the students that research had shown that people with brown eyes were in my own words losers and in a matter of minutes the other kids started treating the brown-eyed kids as second class citizens and worse of all the brown-eyed kids bought the lie and began to believe they were slower and not as smart as the others and so on. The next morning the teacher came in and said she had misread the study and it was just the opposite the brown-eyed kids were not the losers, but they were the winners. And in a matter of minutes they saw themselves as just that and the other kids began to see themselves as losers. Children tend to be concrete thinkers and if an adult and most especially a trusted adult tells them something about themselves they tend to believe it and begin to take on those characteristics, beliefs, and feelings that go with whatever they were told by that adult. And if adults, peers, and society enforce or reinforce that truth it will be difficult if not almost impossible for the child not to buy into it and it will be very difficult to turn that around. I'm not saying that's what happended to you Mike, but hopefully it is certainly something worth thinking about.
mike2685, that drives me nuts when I hear a story like yours. My wife grew up in a home where she had two older brothers. In her bathroom was a Bible, Popular Mechanics, and some car magazine. Her dream for a while was to be either a jockey, she was only 5 feet tall and weighed around 100-105 for most of her teen and adult life, or a drag racer. She loved being outdoors and had a mountain behind her house she climbed several times a week. In fact when we were being considered as Home Missionaries one of the evaluators was concerned she scored so high of the masculine side of a test we were given. In the 50s and 60s when we grew up that was no big deal, but in this day and age many would ask or wonder if she might be predisposed to being a homosexual. That's why I wonder if because of your so-called feminine behaviors, as many in our society would call them, led others to believe as well as yourself to believe that you were predisposed to be a homosexual and as a result you bought into it early on and adopted all the thinkings and feelings that go along with being a homosexual. I want to share on a second post the rest.
Believer, your experiences, to me, lend some evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice. By all means, you "should" have been the poster child for homosexuality if you're looking at it from a nurture perspective. I, on the other hand, had what I would call an excellent childhood. Both parents were home plenty, they got me involved with sports, we had very close relationships with all of our extended family, and I had plenty of friends. I have never, ever, been good at sports. I can remember in first grade choosing to play house with the girls at recess instead of kickball with the boys. I was somewhat of the gay stereotype from such an early age, yet I was never molested or harmed in any way, whereas you were. I truly believe sexual orientation to be innate, for whatever prenatal causes might be there.
Ifeelfine, that's the thing! I am currently in between churches because I have been so hurt by the Catholic church, but when I used to go to mass all the time (which was about a year ago) I never had the spirit "move me" away from homosexuality. What I felt, rather, was the spirit trying to move me away from promiscuity. I knew when I got home from a "hook up" that I felt dirty and guilty, which was the spirit telling me not to abuse myself that way. Now that I am with my partner, the love and emotional attachments we have for one another is better than any kind of sex we could have, and if we do share sexual intimacy, it feels beautiful, loving, caring, not just a rush get off and go home (I apologize if that came across as crude.)
Mike, you seem to have the spirit in you - do you feel that God is telling you homosexuality is wrong? Or, in other words, is the spirit letting you know homosexuality is wrong?
"Why would God allow Satan to corrupt me through some early life experience to make me gay, which would in tern make me end up without a partner for my entire life because to love that partner with sexual intimacy would be sinful? I think celibacy is a miserable existence, and the only people God asks that from are gays? ... How could God let Satan impact the life of a child so significantly that the rest of the child's life would have to be spent without sexual pleasure or a partner who loves them as only a life partner can? "
There are a number of reasons why this might happen.
We have at least one example of suffering occuring so the work of God can be revealed.
John 9:3b
"this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life."
James 1:2-4
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
I know in my case, both are true. God has gotten glory from my testimony. But also, suffering has matured me (not that God is finished wit me by any means). Suffering prepared me to be used by God in ways others are not able to be used. Suffering has strengthened my character. Suffering has increased my understanding. Suffering has increased my compassion. I have compassion for those I would not otherwise have compassion. I am able to communicate and minister to those I would not otherwise be able to. It is because of the suffering I have undergone that others are helped.
There are many reasons why things happen.
God allows bad things to happen to innocent because people and angels have free will. This enables us to make good and bad choices. These choices affect not only ourselves, but also others. Sometimes for what we consider to be for the good, sometimes for what we consider to be for bad. But God addresses even this:
Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
While we may not be able to understand it all at any given time, God uses what is painful and what is obviously beneficial in our lives for the good of those who love Him. I have come to see this in my case. Both women I wrote of earlier have come to see this is true in their cases. Most people who try to do what God says eventually come to understand this, regardless of the level of suffering they undergo.
mike, another thing that happened in my teens was I hung out with guys who taught me how to hustle homosexuals for money and as much as I hate to admit it I did. I know there is absolutely nothing I can do to change my past and I also know that Satan does all he can to use my past to keep me ineffective in my walk with the Lord and my ability to be used of God for His glory and His work as well. Satan may be the 2nd most powerful person in the universe, but I am a child of the most powerful person in the universes, God Himself. God has helped me to make peace with my past and He has also used my past to give me a sensitivity and an empathy for people who are having the same struggles I went through myself. God has forgiven me for my past sins and even now when I sin He stands ready to not only forgive me, but cleanse me of all the unrighteousness associated with my sin if I will repent and turn back to Him. So I guess the bottomline is regardless of our past God not only is ready to forgive us but to not only use us for His glory but take something that others, specifically Satan, meant for bad and use it for good.
mike2685, needless to say I don't know your life experiences, but in many ways I had a number of reasons to become a homosexual. The only thing I don't believe I have ever experienced is getting sexually turned on by another male in any way. As a child I received little if any affection from my Dad, my big brother sexually used me when I was around six. As a young teen I would hitchhike to work and on several occassions I was picked up by men who tried to hit up on me. My freshman year of high school I became the best of friends with a senior who really loved me and treated me in a way I had never experienced before, he was the big brother and father I never had and I loved him more than I loved anyone before in my life. To be honest since then with the exception of God, my wife, and my son I don't think I've loved any other person more than him, but there was from my part nothing sexual at all about our relationship. In fact when I had girl problems, he would be the guy I'd call for advice, which is almost kinf of funny considering he was becoming a priest. And when I came home with my soon to be wife, he was the person I wanted her to meet the most. Please remember that I never became a Christian until I was 19. So there were many times that I wondered that with all the garbage I went through, the fact I couldn't get a girl to like me as a boyfriend if my life depended on it, the lack of love and acceptance I never received from my Dad, and my relationship I had with my friend I believe I had every reason in the world to believe I was or should become a homosexual. So why didn't I, I honestly don't know and while I know God had His hand on my life the whole time, I know I still had to make that choice. Satan was willing to do everything he could to keep me from becoming a Christian and now that I am a Christian he will do all he can to keep me from being an effective witness for the Lord. But as a Christian I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit and if I am surrendered to the Lordship of Christ and the contol of the Holy Spirit
Believer, were you referring to the pet sins posting? I think it is interesting, and certainly could be applied to sins such as alcoholism. Again, my problem is I don't believe homosexuality is a sin in itself. Could I break up with my partner and live single for the rest of my life? Sure. It has been said God does not give us more than we can carry. I trust in God, and believe he is taking me to new places every day and with every experience, and I trust that if he really wants me to make that decision, he will make it very clear to me. This is where I can tie in the question I asked you below. Why would God allow Satan to corrupt me through some early life experience to make me gay, which would in tern make me end up without a partner for my entire life because to love that partner with sexual intimacy would be sinful? I think celibacy is a miserable existence, and the only people God asks that from are gays? God doesn't even require priests to be celibate, that's a church thing. How could God let Satan impact the life of a child so significantly that the rest of the child's life would have to be spent without sexual pleasure or a partner who loves them as only a life partner can?
Believer, I'll go back and look for your last post. The art fair was great, very cool pottery, if only I had an endless bank account I could have afforded it ($75 for 2 soup bowls, I don't think so!) As far as Satan controlling a Christian, the point I was trying to get at was we agree that no one really knows what causes sexual orientation, but I think anyone would agree it is developed from an early (pre-pubescent) age. Here is my thing: In order to sin, going by a definition, you must know you are doing something wrong, yet choose to do it anyways. In the Catholic faith, children don't typically make their First Reconciliation until about age 7 or 8, because that is when it is believed once's conscience has developed adequately to begin thinking about right and wrong in a concrete an abstract way. If sexual orientation is developed and you believe it is a choice, then wouldn't Satan be corrupting an individual before they really had the chance to make a "free will" decision? To me, free will is choosing something, yet a child couldn't be capable psychologically of making a choice so profound as to choose their sexual orientation. How or why would God let Satan corrupt a child's innocence if God is omnipotent? I get the free will thing for adults, but what about watching out for children? That seems somewhat to the contrary. Did that make any sense?
Grace, I have answered you multiple times and yet you keep asking the same questions, so I'm going to take your advice an ignore you.
Mike2685
I am so 'defensive' about what igh is doing because 1) I don't see anything wrong with him posting scripture, 2) the attitude of Daniel Paul is one of arrogance and pride about ministry methods, and 3) Daniel Paul and you complaining about it I believe is wrong. igh, you, or anyone else has a right to express their opinion whether it rubs someone wrong or not. If igh believes that what he is doing is of God and God told him to do it then it is wise for him to obey regardless of how anyone views it.
If you don't want to read his stuff then just ignore what he writes and go to the next poster.
Why does it bother you so much? Is it the content of the scriptures that bothers you? Or is it the attitude you preceive him to have when he makes his posts that you dislike so much? Or are you looking for some kind of sympathy from hetrosexuals about your gayness and you are not getting it from him so anything he writes bothers you? Or is it something else? Only God understands you and knows why you are reacting the way you do. Perhaps you should pray, ask God why, and ask Him to help you deal with it.
Personally, when someone spams their stuff, after I read it once or twice, I just ignore them.
igh spamming his stuff doesn't shut down dialogue and the percent of memory space it takes up in the memory of CP's computers is extremely small to the point of being close to zero.
mike2685, you're a hard man to find at times, I hope you enjoyed the art fair and I wanted to know what you meant about Satan controlling a Christian? Also, did you get a chance to see my last post to you on this site and I wondered what you thought about it?
Mike2685,
I didn't see what igh did as trying to shut down conversation.
Lina, if you are going to pretend to quote me, please do so accurately.
I said, "Historically, people have long used scripture to try to support their selfish positions. At the same time, others have sought out scripture to understand what it says about certain matters and tried to adjust to live by what God has said. The two are very different things - the first is selfish and lends itself to twisting of scripture to justify sin. The latter is seeking God's will and being obedient. People have done both through history, with more of the former than the latter. It is no different today."
Someone who believes in god has two choices: to be selfish or to seek God.
Atheists only have one choice: to be selfish.
People who are selfish will find a way to justify their behavior. You can be selfish and claim to be a Christian or an atheist.
Just because you claim to be Christian does not make you one. People who love Christ will admit their faults and try to correct it as they learn how to be better.
Grace, had you bothered to scroll down, you would have seen my answer. I have no problem with people posting scripture on here. What bothers me is when they do that and don't explain why they posted it, or in igh's case, when it is posted on numerous discussions, numerous times. They were irrelevant, and fit the definition of spamming. If igh wants to have serious conversations with me, then that's fine, but igh only cared about trying to shut down conversation. Why are you so defensive over igh?
Star, lina is quoting me.
"Men are selfish and do things that harm others. God provides an answer for that."
What answer does God provide?
Are women bad too lina or is it just the guys?
Mike2685 - Why does the scriptures that igh posts bother you so much?
"we decide what is ethical. "
which "we"? The "we" who say it is good to kill children as they are born? The "we" who say it is good to kill old people? The "we" who say prostitution of children is a good thing? The "we" who do not want women to be considered equal? The "we" who do not want women to vote? The "we" who do not want children who are ill to live?
When you leave it to man, you are certain to get it wrong. The best you will get is might makes right.
Christ honored women. God recognizes the equality and worth of women.
People are the ones who want to denigrate others. People are the ones who want to hurt others. People are the ones who lie, steal, cheat, murder. People are the ones who abuse, rape, murder children and women.
Are these the "we" you want to determine what is ethical?
"Are you saying the Bible is actually a good moral guide? "
yes.
"If that were the case, why did it take us 1,500 years to outlaw slavery or extend suffrage to women? "
Because men are bad. The problem is not with God, or the Bible. The problem is with men. Men are selfish and do things that harm others. God provides an answer for that. Historically, people have long used scripture to try to support their selfish positions. At the same time, others have sought out scripture to understand what it says about certain matters and tried to adjust to live by what God has said. The two are very different things - the first is selfish and lends itself to twisting of scripture to justify sin. The latter is seeking God's will and being obedient. People have done both through history, with more of the former than the latter. It is no different today.
But to address your question, the church condemned slavery many centuries ago.
In 1435 (almost 60 years before the 'New World' was discovered), Eugene IV condemned slavery in Sicut Dudum. Again, Paul III: Sublimis Deus, 1537, and then again by Gregory XVI: In Supremo, 1839.
"At what one point did we decide the public execution and torture was immoral? Where was the Bible in all of this?"
Again, men are the problem, not God.
Isn't it obvious that we learn as we go. Morality changes with greater knowledge. Or perhaps you'd like to return to the age when the Bible was indeed the sole law of the land; a time when war, ignorance, slavery, torture, hatred, colonization, public execution, absolutist royalty, peasant rebellions, famine, and serfdom was the the way of the world."
I would not mind returning to the time of Adam and Eve, before they sinned. There would be no pain, no evil, no hurting others. But AFTER they sinned has not been such a good time, from what I can tell. Its not good anywhere, anywhen.
" This is not only stupid but actually retards progress by muddying up real science with wishful-thinking and thus prolonging a "debate" which essentially doesn't need to be prolonged. Again, what tangible benefit does faith provide? What tangible benefits have the faithful generated for the betterment of man? Any? "
As I said, the scientific method you seem to cherish was discovered by religious people. Faith is trust. You put your faith in men - how have men treated you so far?
"And how far do we want to take faith as a potential variable in understanding our world? What good does that do? Atheism is simply the absence of this "faith" favoring fact and hard work to fiction and wishful-thinking."
Actually, no. atheism is the faith in man. Tell me, when is the last time you knew an infallible man? Trusting in mankind is wishful thinking.
"Can you imagine if science entertained faith-based reasoning at its core?"
For centuries, it was faith-based reasoning that drove science.
" And what is to gain from the religious? What can they prove? What can they contribute? Think about this strongly. What has arisen from the pulpit that benefits all of humanity? Something tangible of course. "
It was the religious ideas that God created the universe, God is a god of order that caused men to begin to believe that here are rules to the universe and these could be discovered through observation (which can be seen in Romans 1), that caused men to begin to develop the scientific method.
There are many scientists who are/were deists or theists or Christian:
Ibn al-Haytham was a devout Muslim, and helped form what is today known as the scientific method.
Nicolaus Copernicus, a priest, was the first astronomer to formulate a scientifically based heliocentric cosmology that displaced the Earth from the center of the universe in the first half of the 1500s.
Galileo (who was religious, even though the church persecuted him because he favored Copernican science as opposed to the church which favored Aristotelian science),
Newton (Not a trinitarian, but who believed in God none the less),
Charles Babbage,
Blaise Pascal,
Ben Franklin was a deist,
Arthur Eddington, an important mathematical cosmologist, was a Quaker.
Georges Lemaitre, a Roman Catholic priest, proposed the Big Bang theory.
I don't know whether Michael Polanyi, the notable physical chemist and philosopher, was Christian at the end of his life, but I know that he was when he wrote Science, Faith and Society, the best introduction to his thought.
Henry F. "Fritz" Schaefer - theoretical chemist
William Phillips was co-recipient of the 1997 Nobel Prize in Physics.
Francis Collins - geneticist,
Rustum Roy - materials science
"Conversely, think of the immense positive contribution science has had on the advancement of humanity across all fields of knowledge. Why is that? "
Please, give examples of how science without religion has been good for humanity?
"Because science does not operate on faith, but fact. In other words, it searches for truth through hypothesizing, experimentation, and drawing conclusions based on observable facts. On the other hand, religion starts off with the desired outcome and works backwards to prove that its claims are accurate."
You are mistaken. It is religious people who came up with the scientific method. They were able to do so because they recognize that God is a god of order and He set into place rules which can be discovered.
Also, religion does not start with a desired outcome. It starts out with what was, and moves into the what is, and moves into the what will be. History has shown the many prophecies of the future in the Bible have come true.
"we decide what is ethical."
Actually, that is a Biblical position! Those who have not died to self and live for Christ DO decide what is ethical. It's the basis of what the Bible calls the sin nature.
In fact, the last verse in the book of Judges says "and everyone did what was right in their own eyes." (Judges 21:25)
So, you see the statement or point of view is not a new one at all.
Do you remember the movie The Poseidon Adventure (original)? Remember the scene in the ballroom where they were told the glass would hold. It was holding and therefore, what they believe what they could see that the glass would hold...then it broke?
One doesn't see the future yet be believe it's there. We have faith there will be a tommorow and even plan for it. Assuming you have a job, then I'm sure someone has plans for you tomorrow. Why bother if you can't even prove the next minute is going to be there til it is? Tomorrow is not tangable or proveable. Still, we have faith it will be there.
I believe in God.
Please note...none of my questions asked of igh were answered....
darkness flees from the light. It's our job to shine that light.
"If that were the case, why did it take us 1,500 years to outlaw slavery or extend suffrage to women? At what one point did we decide the public execution and torture was immoral? Where was the Bible in all of this?"
Actually, it was right there at the cutting edge. In a society that treated women as less valuable than even some property the Bible said to treat your wife as a co-heir in Christ. The Bible not only introduced the concept of the value of women, but it gave responsibilites to the husband to love, honor, protect and instruct to name a few. Check out the instruct...women were considered stupid yet the Bible says to instruct them. No one else was going to teach a women and yet the Bible says too.
You proceed from a false assumption...Adam and Eve disobeyed God and we as mankind have been doing the same ever since. You underestimate the existance of God based on the behavior of man.
In fact, the point is that Jesus saw each of us in far worse shape than you do! You mearly point it out. Jesus died for save us from it.
Logic dictates that what is not provable is incorrect. I submit that since you cannot disprove that somewhere in existance a being exists that is God...then you cannot eliminate it from reason and logic.
We know gravity exists. If I choose to say it doesn't and there is another reason for us sticking to the planet instead of flying off into space...there is actually science to back up my position. Magnetics has been a favorite replacement theory for gravity. Still, it cannot be proved. Saying there is no God as an absolute statement is the same as saying there's no gravity.
You made an absolute statement that there is no God yet humanism says there are no absolutes. Which is right?
lina!!!! Good to hear from you....
" Can you imagine if science entertained faith-based reasoning at its core?"
But lina...it does! It is the faith that there is more to learn and discover that drives science. If there was no faith that there is something yet to know...there would be no drive to find it!
P4. “We believe with certainty that an ethical life can be lived without religion.â€Â
Different people have different ideas of what is ethical. For some, it is anything I want. For others, it is whatever does not harm me. For others, it is what ever does not harm others. Problem is, without a basis for this, everyone has a different idea of what is harmful.
Question: Who determines what is ethical? I ask this because some probably well meaning people have decided that if you are old in certain countries it is more humane for you to die than receive medical care – even if you desire medical treatment. Others have decided it is a good idea to allow people to kill unborn infants, or even worse, infants right as they are being born, or worse still – infants that survived an abortion are left to die in trash bins. Who decides what is ethical? If you have no basis for morality other than your own thoughts and feelings, what makes your thoughts and feelings more right, more ethical, than someone else’s?
P4. “Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. “
The author is mistaken when he says this. There IS a faith, but rather than faith in an external god, the faith is in people (particularly specialists in areas where they feel the need to be in agreement) and themselves.
P4. “We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, open mindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.â€Â
In reality, atheists blind themselves to the spiritual world, looking only for answers in the physical. They have faith that they are able to reason anything out, given time and resources. They have faith in the idea that a spiritual realm does not exist. But what if there IS a spiritual realm? Scientists who deny the existence of such will never be willing to look for it, because automatically, they in their infinite wisdom have decided it does not exist. If they have blinded themselves to the possibility, then they will never be able to interpret the data accurately. Nor will they ever begin to look for some way to measure things that might exist or occur in the spiritual realm.
Yes, atheists have faith. They have faith in their own intelligence and in the intelligence of other like-minded people. But this cuts them off from so many other people who have brilliant ideas, which they will never entertain, because the spiritual realm does not exist in their realm of possibilities.
The fact is, atheists only respect “free-inquiry†when the free-inquiry is in areas of which they approve. Atheists only respect “open mindedness†when others are being open minded in areas of which they approve. Atheists only respect “the pursuit of ideas†when those ideas are on the approved list. If anyone comes up with possible explanations or interpretations of data that outside those approved areas, they attack, claiming the person is uneducated, or immoral, or unscientific, or fill-in-the-adjective.
Lina, "god is not great". And no, I have no such craving. God loves me, and since I've come to know Him, plenty of people do too.
unfortunately i have to sign off for the evening i have company. GBU you all. byers
soon lina very soon, Jesus comes for his own, he sends the Angels to 'gather' us unto him.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Lina, I've taken a look at that book you asked me to. Its full of inconsistencies.
Lina, God loves you.
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.....
God loves you Lina!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
why lina my love! where have you been!! :D
um. Mike has said he does not agree homosexual love is against what God has said. Either he's right, or he's mistaken. But he's definitely made that choice.
I happen to agree with you that scripture will not help Mike understand scripture. He's read it and made a decision. However, I am not convinced only one person comes here and reads. I do not agree that quoting scripture is always the most helpful. But neither do I agree it is always hurtful, even when I think it would be - God has shown me evidence of this. But even if Mike was the only reading this, God's word is powerful. *I* happen to think each situation needs different approaches. But that is why I am the way I am.
Others have different callings - one of those is to be a prophet - to speak God's word into the lives of others. We are called to defend the truth (Philippians 1:7, 16; 2 Timothy 4:2;1 Peter 3:15). Like I said, *I* would do what he is doing differently. But it may be exactly what some reader needs to see. *I* am called differently.
I think igh comes and goes, as do all posters and readers. By trying to shut him down, I think you've called more attention to him and his posts.
"Its my 'Job' if you will my Gift of the Spirit and my Ministry given unto me by God to expose all those who lead others astray, to stand against them, and yes Debate them."
Chapter and verse please. I was not aware there was a gift like that on the list.
"-That the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of God, showing forth God to every person through the law and the prophets, and finally, completely and ultimately on earth in the being of Jesus Christ." -MCC
The law and the prophets are clear on the issue of homosexuality. So, they're actions don't line up with their statement of beliefs.
They appear to be an off-shoot of Catholic or Episciple denomination. Go to the site and do a search with the word "homosexual".
Just because they use the word Christian doesn't make it so. Jesus is full of compassion for the sinner but died for our sin so we don't have to be stuck in it.
"Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
igh, please read my posts before you respond to them. I have already posted that verse, but since you bring it up again...is Mike "flesh and blood" or a "principality and power"? Perhaps he's "rulers of the darkness of this world". No wait...can't be...that's not talking about men.
Please let me know how this applies to Mike. Unless Mike is not "flesh and blood" I guess you're targeting civilians.
James 4:4 "Unfaithful people! Don't you know that to be the world's friend means to be God's enemy? If you want to be the world's friend, you make yourself God's enemy."
So...why does Jesus save people? Why does he save sinners? How can He reach out to them? What was He doing hanging out with harlots & tax-gatherers? Sounds like your Jesus is an enemy of God.
Please clarify.... I thought that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. That we love him because he first loved us. Sounds like He was the one being friendly.
"It is unloving to not speak truth. It is unloving to not warn the people who are heading for a cliff."
He KNOWS he's headed for a cliff. He's said he doesn't have a choice. Why aren't you guys posting all the verses about how he can be free in Jesus? What about the verses that speak to exactly how to be free in Christ. All the verses about the hope of salvation and how he can get out of this mess he's in? All that your posts are doing is confirming he's stuck where he is. Please explain how this 'godly' posting is not returning void? That which is from God yields good fruit.
It is unloving of me to simply let people think they are being godly when I know they are not. Do you not know the scripture? Have you not read what I have posted?
igh...which God? We have Bob Jones in our back yard and they sure think they are on target from God and everyone else isn't going to heaven! Winning Mike is the target. Mike has said he already knows all the Scripture you've posted. It has no effect so your posts are a duds.
In this case he seems to understand he's falling off the cliff and is calling out for help. Do you not understand he needs to be uplifted rather than pushed?
This is indeed a wicked and preverse generation. My Jesus offers hope for the hurting. Try using your posts to proove we have the same Jesus.
Daniel Paul,
We are to be loving. I agree. But it is unloving to not be honest. It is unloving to not speak truth. It is unloving to not warn the people who are heading for a cliff.
We each have different callings. We each have different styles. We each have different purposes. Sometimes when we see motive that others do not see we are correct, but sometimes we are seeing ourselves.
James 4:4 "Unfaithful people! Don't you know that to be the world's friend means to be God's enemy? If you want to be the world's friend, you make yourself God's enemy."
Now here is the site i came across doing research not to long back. Here is the link that some have been asking on the movie being made on the lie of David's and Johnathan's homosexual relationship. You see there are 'church's' that believe such blasphemy that its hard to comprehend, but its all to justify themselves. Read the whole page but start where the link takes you. Its a satanic church. They preach a false Gospel and lead many to damnation. Its my 'Job' if you will my Gift of the Spirit and my Ministry given unto me by God to expose all those who lead others astray, to stand against them, and yes Debate them. And Jesus did 'whoop' on them in yahoo and many other sites!
http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Resources&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=2122#Pt3
this is the metropolitan 'church'
1Corinthians 3:16 Surely you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you!
1Co 3:17 God will destroy anyone who destroys God's temple. For God's temple is holy, and you yourselves are his temple.
1Co 3:18 You should not fool yourself. If any of you think that you are wise by this world's standards, you should become a fool, in order to be really wise.
1Co 3:19 For what this world considers to be wisdom is nonsense in God's sight. As the scripture says, "God traps the wise in their cleverness";
1Co 3:20 and another scripture says, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are worthless."
I cannot believe I am having this conversation. Yes, we are in a spiritual battle. Yes, sometimes those who come here are actively against the word of God. Yes, some who come here are confused or misled. Paul spoke the word of God into the lies of people, whether they were believers or not. Sometimes people are used by God to speak to those who are the children of the devil. Sometimes people are used by god to speak to those who are the children of God. But it was the word of God that God used, whether it was scripture at the time or not. We are always to speak the word of God fearlessly ad courageously. I agree, it should be with love, patience, and kindness, but one of the greatest things someone can do is speak truth into their lives. And nothing is more true than the word of God.
1 Jn 3:4-10
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Philippians 1:14
Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord have been encouraged to speak the word of God more courageously and fearlessly.
2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage - with great patience and careful instruction.
1 Thessalonians 5:10-11
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
so we do have Weapons to fight them with! Truth Baby and Love is the Greatest Truth.
Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph 6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
Got Armour??
i got mine on. And daily fight satan, tough battles, trust me on that.
daniel paul i have seen God, i stood before his Throne and Worshipped him. A gift to me from God. Why me? im the worst of the worst the least likely, if you knew me you wouldnt believe i could be anything let alone a servant of God to defend the Truth, but i was chosen and here i stand on it.
ok daniel paul you think im a 'this' 'that' and the other 'thing.' dont know why, my posts are on target and from God.
And Jesus rocks the whole wide world baby!!
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
And yes i have that mind :D
2Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Yes we are in a war and some are in the flesh and are satans children.
2Corinthians 11:12 I will go on doing what I am doing now, in order to keep those other "apostles" from having any reason for boasting and saying that they work in the same way that we do.
2Co 11:13 Those men are not true apostles---they are false apostles, who lie about their work and disguise themselves to look like real apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 Well, no wonder! Even Satan can disguise himself to look like an angel of light!
2Co 11:15 So it is no great thing if his servants disguise themselves to look like servants of righteousness. In the end they will get exactly what their actions deserve.
to be continued on next post. so pay attention and......... JESUS WHOOPS!
"We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers."
Those people who are posting here are flesh and blood. Those who 'whoop' up on them seem to have forgotten that our battle is not with them!
Also, many times in Scripture God uses others to handle things. When people start to wound flesh and blood people Jesus defended even sinners.
The sermon this morning (we have 3 services) was on ego. One of the passages was when Jesus healed on the sabboth. The 'religious' were ready with all their Scripture to nail Him. Jesus reached out to the man with compassion and was ANGRY that people would rather beat people with Scripture then show compassion and humility. The claimed to know the grace of God but it wasn't in their fruits.
Our first responsibility is to the reputation of Christ and how HE is represented in our posts as a collective group of Christians. How should we then 'correct sinners' if the saints forget the example of Jesus. If anyone knew the Scriptures it was Jesus...right? So, why didn't he quote them more often? Jesus died to restore our relationship with Him. Beating people over the head does not result in restoration.
The sermon "Eliminating Ego" should be on www.brookwoodchurch.org by Monday. It's worth a listen.
" Biblical love story between David and Jonathan"
looks like a hoax
"Beating people up with scripture is offensive to Jesus."
Jesus did it all the time. "Have you not heard..."
"He only did this to the 'righteous'."
Many people come here claiming to be Christian. If they claim that, then we have the responsibility to speak the truth.
I may not agree that certain verses apply in certain situations, but there have been many ties when I misread what someone was saying, and someone else spoke to the heart of the matter in a totally different way that I did or would have. But that person was used by god to do so. We must allow God to work in His way.
Questioning motive is good. Assigning it is something else. Some of us are used by God to deal with people who are hurting - I would NOT send one of my sons to a hospice, it would overwhelm him. But my daughter could go in and be gentle and loving and kind and helpful without being overwhelmed. I would not send another son of mine to a hospice because he would be blunt and harsh even though his heart is really touched. We are all created differently and respond to different situations differently.
Talk to igh. If he says he believes this is what God wants him to do, pray for igh. Let God handle igh.
Daniel Paul
What is your motive for calling down igh? Is it partially because you view his approach a hinderance to your ministry to Mike2685? If that is the case, at least partially, then why don't you give mike2685 your email address and correspond with him via email. I have given mine to people on CP. After he gets it you can delete it if you are afraid or concerned that someone else might try to contact you.
igh has a right to post whatever he wants. Maybe his posts are not wise for the occassion but it is his right. He believes that what he is doing is what God wants him to do. If he really believes that then it is best for him to obey God and not worry about what you think about what he is doing.
You think you are right about what you are doing with igh and with Mike2685. Maybe you are and maybe you are not. God is your judge not me.
I personally don't see anything offensive to what igh posts. I wouldn't approach the issue the way he does but then I probably wouldn't do it the way you do either.
Let God be his judge about what he is doing as well as what you are doing, or what I am doing.
If you feel like it is your job to police the posts made by people here on CP then go ahead and do what you are doing. It is better to obey God than to obey man who just may not have heard from God. Personally I don't call people on anything. I just ignore them and do what I think God wants me to do.
As far as using the delete function, try putting your cursor over the delete term (you'll see a perpendicular line with a horizonal line on top and one on the bottom)and right click that then your post will disappear.
Grace2--I fully agree. However, there is no way on this site to contact anyone through private message or by any other means. This is the only way. So...when it went from the scripture being offensive to igh being offensive this is where I speak up.
It's not a fun 'gift' to have doing QC in the body. You get looked down on and misunderstood quite a bit! Still, even Paul in his letters would call down people by name for repeated offensive behavior.
It is codependant to ignore igh's approach here. I don't flag people except for myself (I did try the delete but it doesn't work on my computer for whatever reason). I address issues. The issue here is unrelated scripture not tied into the thread causes confusion. Jesus is not the author of confusion.
I have addressed igh's behavior. Now back to the subject. Exodus provides a choice to people trapped in homosexuality. There is hope in their program and it has worked for many people get out of the gay lifestyle. They do it with the love of Jesus.
WB-Jesus was an effective communicator. I want to be like Jesus. I want igh to be like Jesus. I want all of us to be like Jesus.
I get the feeling some of you a Bob Jonesers. igh's response is clear he gets his jollies out of beating people up with the Bible. Jesus spoke to those types of people with much more force than I have addressed igh.
Beating people up with scripture is offensive to Jesus. He made that clear throughout the Gospels. Ever been to a doctor who doesn't seem to understand there are less painful ways to take care of the problem? We say he has a poor bedside manner. My point is to try to improve some bedside manner here. Doctors who see no problem with causing unnessessary pain should choose another profession. A doctor who enjoys causing you pain is just plain sick.
My profession is one of faith. I have been in the position of being beat up on by people. God took those people out of the ministry! He who has an ear let him hear....
OK...some are missing the point. Jesus only whooped up on people in HIS house. Not out in public. This is public.
The reason I finally spoke up about igh is because he seems do delight in beating people up with the Bible. Jesus DID NOT DO THIS to those who were seeking answers. He only did this to the 'righteous'.
Our church is a 'hospital church'. We reach out to those who have been bullied by believers. igh and some others here seem to miss the point that I keep posting so I'll make it a bit more clear.
The Bible is clear when correcting someone for you to realize that except for the grace of God ALONE it would be you in that situation. It would be you who feels trapped in homosexuality with no way out. Beating people over the head with the Bible is harmful. Jesus addressed the attitude. Paul addressed the attitude. Paul even called out Peter when they disagreed.
Plain and simple...mike is looking for answers. He has made that clear. Jesus put compassion above whooping up on people and only whooped up on people in HIS temple.
It is not the fruit of the Spirit to beat up on people. Jesus even defended a gal from being stoned by people quoting Scripture. I will do the same.
Sheep are lead and guided ... not driven. Several posts here towards mike and others come of like we Christians are better than they are. We really need to be careful of this. "By grace are you saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELF it is a gift from God". I think we make light of that gift when we get our jollies out of beating up people with the Bible.
Daniel,
Jesus drove out people from the temple with a whip, which sounds like 'whooping up' on someone to me.
We ARE in a battle, with ourselves and with spirits. Some of us are used by God as pastors, some as teachers, some in other ways. We all have our calling. Sometimes I am thought of as arrogant. Sometimes confident. Sometimes pushy. Sometimes loving. Sometimes gentle. I try to proclaim God's word. I try to not hurt people's feelings. I sometimes fail, at both. I'd much rather hurt people's feelings than fail to proclaim the word of God. I think you assign motive to igh's actions inappropriately. I dot see him trying to draw attention to himself. I see him proclaiming the truth, the word of God.
(John 2:15; Ephesians 6:10-18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 ; James 4:1-3)
RE:"Ang Lee, has recently agreed to direct a movie depicting a Biblical love story between David and Jonathan"
Let Ang Lee and his movie be accursed!
Daniel Paul
Why don't you pray for igh that God will help him in his ministry instead of criticizing him. Let God be the judge of his methods. You do not have to read his stuff. You can just skip over his posts when you see his name. There are people who may not like your approach either. None of us are perfect and we all could use God's intervention in how we minister in His name.
I agree Grace2. However, unapplied Scripture is nothing more that sabre rattling. It simply swings in the air and hopes it hits something. Not only that but it can be harmful. It is sharper than any two edged sword and should be treated with respect.
Making disciples is a relationship process. It has nothing to do with 'whooping' people. igh reminds me quite a bit of Peter who needed to learn to put the sword down and allow Jesus to live though him.
The Bible is not a blunt object to beat people with.
"You should have seen Jesus whoop on em! "
I'm afraid we may have different Jesus'. My Jesus never whooped on anyone outside his own home (the temple). He was whooped, whipped, beaten and crucified by them and did so willingly.
I prefer to reach people's hearts...not argue with their heads. That is what my Jesus said to do. He who has an ear...
Ouch daniel paul. God asked me to post that Scripture and i obeyed. There is a good reason. Jesus is my teacher, and we have been on the net for a long time now. Used to have some good debates on yahoo, those were the days. You should have seen Jesus whoop on em! Was really something. Paltalk now theres a satan nest of demons. Need alot of wisdom there. There are some so called Christian sites on the net that are like fields of land mines you really have to be on your toes to do the work! Its the way its been in the Ministry God has given unto me. What a wonderful thing it is to be a Truth Keeper! Its tough sometimes really stressful too, but the work is so rewarding i just love it!
Jesus comes back soon, lets be about the ministrys he has given us and be fruitful! Amen.
Hebrews 4:12 - "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
igh-"i will continue to exercise the Spirit within me Jesus gave unto me and yes quote Scripture and post it."
Matthew 23:2&5 "The scribes and Pharisees have seated themselves... ...for they broaden their phylacteries..."
phylacteries - small boxes containing Scripture texts worn for religious purposes.
You are welcome to post all the scripture you want. I prefer the ways of Christ HE said. Does your pastor simply preach lists of scripture? Does he simply stand there and read the Bible for an hour? I implore you by the mercies of Christ to accept the ways of Christ and turn from the leven of the Pharisees.
Mike - another thing about Exodus International is unless you have spoken with them or been to one of their events you are going by news reports and such.
I try to overlook what I hear and talk to folks directly. The pro-gay media isn't exactly going to give Exodus good press.
This is from the above story: "Exodus is not in the business of converting anyone. We just offer a hand to walk beside people who want freedom from the bondage of sexual addiction.â€Â
This is quite different from how the liberal media reports on them. Give Exodus a call...the worst that can happen is you will waste a few minutes of your time.
I believe that God shows us that Love in the Bible is not a feeling, but an action. Love thy neighbor, love thy enemy, love Thy God, love your wife. Society has changed the Biblical meaning of love to one of feeling. I love food, I love my pet,I love my lover. It is this feeling oriented thinking of love that God warns us that will cause us to not live for Christ and to sin. It is hard for a rich to enter the kingdom of God (love of money). He warns on who to choose as a wife by saying make sure she is Biblical and not just by what you feel for her because feeling change but God commands us to Love(action) our wives regardless of her own actions.
Love Biblically is a full blown whole hearted committment to another that one to help nuture each other to fully be like Christ. Societies love however goes by feeling and those feeling can cause someone to sin. The boyfriend who convinces the girl to have sex with him because he loves her so much, the friend who idely stands by because they don't wantt to hurt your feelings, the lover who ask you to do something you know to be sinful so they may feel pleasure...the list goes on. I say Love each other Biblically to care enough about each other enough to admonish him when they are wrong, love them Biblically to help them with what you just admonish them for, Love them Biblically to treat them as you would treat yourself.
I flagged myself as the site was kind enough to post it twice....
" it is not spam to quote the Holy Word, it stands on its own and is Spiritually discerned."
So is prayer, yet Jesus warned of those who showed off their holiness by their long prayers. Great, you know the Bible. Giving dozens of Bible verses is coming off like the tinging of a cymbal or the clang of a gong. The Bible also warned about that.
I never said not to quote scripture. I did say that Jesus didn't except to those who liked to show how holy they were by their knowledge. That was the rub when He would say "do you not know the Scripture?"
Here's the key of my point...Jesus wasn't concerned with the 'spiritual discernment' of the people. He was interested in a relationship with them knowing that spiritual discernment is a result of that relationship.
James Reynolds - igh has been know to post 3-4 max limit posts in a row of just lists of Bible verses. It makes the flow of the posts fall of the tail of the blog and many of us have to go back several pages to get the tread of conversation. In this case, the Bible says that Satan is the author of confusion (which igh is creating with these posts and posts of Bible verses) and Satan has been known to use Scripture to try to create confusion. He who has an ear let him hear.
Guys people should not flag somebody because they quoted scripture and only scripture it is what God gave us to deal with life and its stresses. Maybe just maybe it hits a wrong chord with people because Truth is hard to take. Maybe just maybe God put that in their heart to post for someone to see. Remember some people may read through these post and never post anything, so that scripture you may have read or saw hundreds of times my strike a chord with them. I agree that if there are tones of hatred in the post with scripture it should be flagged.
daniel paul the Scriptures were a warning. God sent it. And it is not spam to quote the Holy Word, it stands on its own and is Spiritually discerned.
Now i am allowed 3000 Characters per post. One was quite small. i posted 4 references on several Articles, and one on another that mike did flag said i need to use my own thoughts.
mike2685 said: "igh, that is very unproductive...use your own thoughts, ive read the Bible plenty of times before "
Now i am well within my usage of Christianpost and not near a spammer, all Scripture was on topic and very Appropriate. If anyone wants to report me i will be happy to take it up with the Admins here, they can review the discussions and God's Appropriate use of his Holy Word in reply. Thank You.
P.s. i will continue to exercise the Spirit within me Jesus gave unto me and yes quote Scripture and post it.
2Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living,
2Timothy 3:17 so that the person who serves God may be fully qualified and equipped to do every kind of good deed. "
mike2685, I tend to agree with you, the only thing a good counselor can do is encourage some one learn to change the behavior that either leads to the problem or is the problem. A good alcoholism counselor will help the person change the behaviors that led the person to drink in the first place, to include changing the places and people he hangs out with. One article I read that helped me a lot was in a Christian Leadership magazine and it talked about our pet sins, those sins that we just can't seem to experience total victory over, just when we think we've got it licked, bam there we go again. They suggested that nobody just ups and sins, but rather there is a chain of events or decisions that leads to that sin. We need to identify the chain links that lead to the sin and as soon as we see them forming break the chain immediately and even better put things in place that will keep the chain from forming in the first place. As long as the chain doesn't form their is a good chance we'll have victory over that sin. But two key ingredients are required, the desire to not want to commit that sin and the willingness to allow God's Holy Spirit to help us identify the links, to let us know when those links are beginning to form, and to give us the courage to break those links before we fall into sin. And yes, I do believe that God could choose to take those pet sins away from us, but from my own personal experience it appears that is very seldom His will. I believe that He doesn't in order to encourage us to both lean on and trust Him more to help us to better resist the devil and flee from any temptation he or anyone else puts before us.
Daniel Paul,
I dont know if its dial up or not, but I know whether I am using DSL or T1 connection, the mouse does not show the 'delete' as a link, but when I click on it, it DOES delete the post if I am logged in.
Mike
I hear you saying the exodus folks speak down to you. I don't know if that's valid or subjective. But I DO know reparative therapy must for work at least some folks, as the guy who pushed to remove homoseuxality from the DSM, Dr. Robert Spitzer, has come out with a study showing at least some people have come out the other side.
Before he came out with the study, he was the pride and joy of the GBLT groups, now he is roundly condemned by them and they try hard to discredit his peer reviewed research.
I know its hard to leave sin behind sometimes. I also know it will pop back up later, sometimes years later. This does not mean the sin should engaged in.
Regardless of whether reparative therapy works, progressively leaving more and more sin behind is what is required from us by God. Claiming Christ and living in habitual, purposeful, recurring, sin is at best hypocritical, and at worst calling God a liar when He wrote that people who love Christ do not go on sinning (1 John 3:4-10).
Also, in regards to whether homosexual desire and sex are sins, unless you are looking for justification, I dont see how anyone can look at Romans 1 and not believe 'Men committed indecent acts with other men' and 'women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones' is not talking about homosexuality being a sin. Nor do I see how one can look at the original terms for lust (epiqumia), desire (transliterated orexis), passion (transliterated pathos), and not see the desire of a man for man or woman for woman is sin.
If you agree with what God said there, then you have the repsonsibility to turn away from, according to John and Paul. But you should not have to do it alone - this is what the church universal is supposed to be for, to pray for us, to remind us, to come along side us and help us.
The delete feature must not work with dial-up....
"I have prayed feverishly that I not be gay anymore, but you people are so hell bent on saying that there is no way Jesus made me gay that you don't stop to think you are trying to play God."
Now the peices are coming together. I don't live at the end of the earth but I've go a good view of it from my back porch! We can't even get cable out here. The phone company just ran lines out here so we can get DSL. What does this have to do with you? There are quite a few people out here who have issues that "God has not delivered" them from yet most all of them a church goers. Alchohol and drugs are the biggy.
There's the answer...YOU CANNOT DO IT ALONE. Praying is good but you need the support of the brethern and accountablity. This is the same with ANY sin. We do a program called 'Celebrate Recovery' which helps people overcome whichever sin has them hogtied. Our church is made up of several 1000 very imperfect people who, for the most part, have been hogtied at one time or another.
There are several medical applications here. The first is the concept of a cast. Things that are broken need to be surrounded and supported to heal properly. It's the same with broken people. The second is physical therapy. I got hit by a drunk driver when I was in HS. I wasn't in a car at the time.... The doctors said I wouldn't walk again. However, one missionary nurse home on furlow was determined that I would walk. She said "I don't care if you hate me...you're going to walk." PT is no fun and you MUST have someone who is not going to let you stay the way you are without getting up in your face.
I don't envy you your situation. I've been hogtied myself once or twice and it's no fun to deal with. Here's the deal from experience....
you MUST find a group of people to hold you accountable for change and encourage that change. Go to:
http://www.exodus-international.org/
They have a toll-free number and can find a group near you (I would hope). If you really want to be changed then go to this site and make the call.
"In your face" because I love you and want God's best for you.
I have to agree with Mike on this one igh. If there was a way to IM you or email you I would have. My discussion board on my site has a private message feature but I haven't found it here.
There is a difference between quoting scripture and applying it. I do enjoy your point of view but often it gets lost between all those verses.
Read the Gospels and count the number of times Jesus quoted scripture to anyone besides the religious leaders. I think you won't run out of fingers. Jesus explained Biblical principle because you don't win souls by quoting the Bible. If it were that simple most everyone would be saved! Souls are won when the gospel gets to their personal level whatever that may be.
Please apply the principle and reference a vs to support the application.
Thanks
My goodness igh, I have flagged you again for spamming. The exact same copy on paste on 3 separate pages...why? The only thing I can think of is that you're trying to shut down dialogue, which is a very sad thing and quite honestly, not so Christ like. Jesus doesn't desire someone who can copy and paste the Bible, he wants someone who is willing to talk about it. Please, stop spamming, its rude, and I will flag you if you continue and notify the admins.
2Co 5:17 Anyone who is joined to Christ is a new being; the old is gone, the new has come.
2Co 5:18 All this is done by God, who through Christ changed us from enemies into his friends and gave us the task of making others his friends also.
2Co 5:19 Our message is that God was making all human beings his friends through Christ. God did not keep an account of their sins, and he has given us the message which tells how he makes them his friends.
2Co 5:20 Here we are, then, speaking for Christ, as though God himself were making his appeal through us. We plead on Christ's behalf: let God change you from enemies into his friends!
2Co 6:14 Do not try to work together as equals with unbelievers, for it cannot be done. How can right and wrong be partners? How can light and darkness live together?
2Co 6:15 How can Christ and the Devil agree? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
2Co 6:16 How can God's temple come to terms with pagan idols? For we are the temple of the living God! As God himself has said, "I will make my home with my people and live among them; I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
2Co 6:17 And so the Lord says, "You must leave them and separate yourselves from them. Have nothing to do with what is unclean, and I will accept you.
2Co 6:18 I will be your father, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
Jas 4:4 Unfaithful people! Don't you know that to be the world's friend means to be God's enemy? If you want to be the world's friend, you make yourself God's enemy.
I am shucks...I changed email addresses and it wouldn't let me reuse the name
Mike, I have to ask.....are you Bmteacher? he used to post on here and it's been a while since I've seen him.
Mike,
I think you misjudge me from a previous post. If I offended you I am sorry. By reading your story below I feel I better understand your position. Am I right to say you struggle with the issue "how is this sin if I love this person, some people interpret the Bible one way and others a different way. Lord help me to understand which is right." If you read my last post from the previous discussion I have friends who are homosexual, and I do not judge them or hate them, but I do not waiver that I think it is sinful. I have seen the struggle first hand, and I have also seen them pick up their cross to follow Jesus. This is a very long process that does not happen over night, which might be how Exodus preaches. I can tell you one thing from my own experience you sometimes think you have something defeated, only for it to pop back up again. Remeber Christ said he put a thorn in the flesh of Paul to constantly remind him on the relience of his one true savior. I will pray that God will help you in your struggle so that you may be able to help others in their struggle.
Believer, you bring me to a good closing remark for these posts, all of which I appreciate. I do feel God's peace and contentment, and its not because I have given up. God has led me to a great place in life. I love the area I am living in, my family is all extremely close and communicative with each other, I am in a job that brings me joy in the rewards, and I am in a relationship that makes me feel safe, supported, and proud. I cannot say what God will do for me in the future. If I someday feel that he is moving me away from the relationship, so be it, but I don't see that happening, because I know the difference between love and lust, and this is love, more than I have ever felt it for another person.
All of this being said, the reason I am so against groups like Exodus is because they offer a false hope on their timeline. They tell all gays they can change through "reparative therapy" which many major psychological groups feel is quite dangerous to a person's well being (because it can push them harder than their emotional health can take.) Exodus functions off faulty, inconclusive evidence. If I was bisexual and went to Exodus, I'm sure I could choose to only seek opposite sex partners and claim that they healed me. I think they overlook the thousands of people like myself who truly are gay, who have tried to change. I feel like Exodus comes off as "Oh, you're just not trying hard enough, you need someone like me to help you find God, you're such a miserable sinner, aren't you?" I am in a very good place with God, and I am not miserable whatsoever. Its very offensive that they speak so condescendingly, yet I don't think they have truly researched enough to be a safe organization to be dealing with such heavy issues. I appreciate the place they are coming from, but I think they are standing on very shaky ground. Thoughts?
Well, I do have to say I appreciate how everyone is discussing this without being accusatory, it is a very nice change of pace on this message board. Wbmoore, I appreciate the Bible verse, and for me it is a message of hope. Hope that yes, Jesus does use people who are typically thought to be abnormal in some way to show the glory of God. I have thought that, for a long time, my being gay really is a way for me to connect with those struggling with oppression, because if I wasn't gay, I would have no way to really relate and understand them. Now, I teach in the poorest area of Baltimore, and I can say I know what that daily struggle of oppression is like. JSA, yes, Jesus does strengthen me, every day. I cannot say why I am gay, or if Jesus will ever change me, for I don't fully know his plan. Perhaps he knew asking me to totally give it up was too much then, as about 9 years ago when I first came out I was contemplating suicide. Perhaps Jesus has given me the strength to continue on, and he is revealing his plan for me in a timeline that kicks me in the butt, but doesn't push me over the edge. Rosemam, I do appreciate you trying to make a connection. It is a similar struggle in some respects. What I would say is different is that with weightloss, you know that you can lose weight through specific steps. With homosexuality, no one knows what causes it or if it can be changed at all, so there aren't any steps to "get better" if you will.
mike2685, I share all that to say this, even though I'm not homosexual I know what it is like to struggle with sin because like you I too am a sinner and I still struggle with sin and the temptation that leads to sin and often times I fall short and sin. If the lifestyle a person is living is in synch with God's Word and Will, regardless of the circumstances that may result that person will experience His peace and contentment in spite of them. But if a person is living a lifestyle out of synch with God's Word and Will it doesn't matter what they do they cannot and will not experience His peace and contentment in their life and like I was they will be one miserable Christian. God in Hebrews says that if we are a child of His when we get out of synch with Him that because He is our heavenly Father and because He loves us so much He will lovingly but firmly discipline us in hopes that we will repent of whatever we're doing or not doing and come home to Him. Mike, only you and God know your heart and I'm not going to judge and I really care about you and for that reason I'm going to challenge you to honestly evaluate your relationship with your heavenly Father with regards to your lifestyle and I'm sure you have done that already. But if you're not genuinely experiencing God's peace and contentment in your life then there's a good chance that something in your life is out of synch and it's not God. And once God shows you what's out of synch, my prayer is that you'll let Him do what ever He needs to do to get back in synch and that you'll have the courage to do what ever He challenges you to do. I'm not going to lie to you and say it will be easy, but I can guarantee you it will be worth it and I know that because I'm living proof of that.
mike2685, at the same time God is trying to develop us into the Christ-like person He wants us to be Satan is doing all he can to mess that up and unfortunately he knows where we are the most vulnerable and he is good at what he does. For the first few years of my Christian life I was a mess, I felt like a spiritual ping-pong ball, one week living for the Lord and the next living for self. People ask me when I share this if I was really saved and I immediately tell them yes and when they ask how did I know, I tell them because I was the most miserable Christian in the world. God promises when we are a child of His we'll have His peace and contentment regardless of our circumstances and I didn't have that, but the issue wasn't salvation, but surrender. I finally got it in the fall of 1974 when I was about to mess up my relationship with my girlfriend who has now been my wife for over 33 years. I had been doing the same thing in my relationship with her that I was doing with God. I had basically told God thanks for saving me, but You go over there and sit down and when I need You I'll call You, but that night God told me that ain't gonna get it, if you want to became the person I want you to be and allow me to use your life to make a difference for the cause of Christ, I have to be in control. And that night I did just that, but I realized very quickly that unlike salvation, surrender is not a one time decision, but rather a daily, moment by moment, choice by choice decision. And it's all about who will have their way in my life, God or me. There are areas that I still struggle with surrendering to God, but I've learned when I don't once again I lose the peace and contentment of my relationship with God, kinda like the prodigal son, but when I repent of the sin that led me to take back control and turn back to God, I am immediately forgiven and experiencing the peace and contentment of my salvation. I'll be back on the next page.
mike2685, I was going to repond to your post last night, but I really felt led to wait and make sure I heard from God first before I responded. So here's what I believe God would have me share with you. In the Air Force I was in the substance abuse field and while at school I had an instructor who when asked what caused someone to be the way they are, his response was always the same, "poor potty training". In other words what difference does it make since the issue still remains. The Bible teaches that we are born with a sin nature, we are all sinners. Even after a person becomes a Christian that fact doesn't change, I'm still a sinner. Now I can waste the rest of my life on this earth trying to not be a sinner or I can allow God to use me for His glory inspite of me being a sinner. In AWANA I did my best to teach kids what sin is and here's what we came up with. Sin is either doing, saying, or thinking things that we shouldn't or not doing, saying, or thinking things that we should and we know the difference. I found that the kids could really grab hold of and understand that definition of sin. As a Christian our desire should be to live our lives in a way that is pleasing to God and can allow Him to use us in joining Him in fulfilling His Will and more specifically His Great Commission. To effectively do that requires us to be wholeheartedly surrendered to the Lordship of Christ, the control of the Holy Spirit, and God's plans and purposes for our lives. Romans 12:1 says that we are to daily present our lives as a living sacrifice which is our reasonable service and our spiritual worship. I'm going to a 2nd page so I don't get cutoff.
I have a friend who has told me that he prayed many times not to be gay, and that he really "tried" not to be. The best analogy I can give him is that I am overweight. I can pray daily that God make me thin. It's certainly not a choice to be overweight. That too has difficulties and many judgements from people. Yes, my weight problem is most likely from past hurts that may or may not have been in my current memory bank. However, I can pray all I want for God to make me thin, and really have the desire to be thin, but unless I take concrete steps to do that, and place it completely in God's hands, I'm still not going to wake up tomorrow and be thin. I do realize that means that food then becomes a source of comfort, therefore, there's the "god" I am placing before God. You may not see this as a good comparison, but it's just the same. It becomes an addiction, just as homosexuality is. Even if there is no sex involved, it is a co-dependent relationship. God doesn't want you dependent on anyone but Him. That's what makes him a jealous God. No is saying it will be easy. I've started to take the steps I need after years of struggling, and finally realizing that God is the only one who can help me.
Mike2685, I don't know your heart. I hear frustration in your words. I won't say I understand how you feel. I haven't walked in your shoes. This is a controversial issue. I wonder if you’d allow me one request - that for a moment we put aside the issue of sex. I have a verse I’d like to share with you and it’s a challenging one. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. Hebrews 12:14 reads "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Challenging? "Without holiness no one will see the Lord." I like the first part about making peace with all men; I can do that. But HOLINESS? A problem. I've lied. The Bible says not to. I've stolen. I've taken the Lord's name in vain. And commandment #1 "you shall have NO OTHER GODS before Me." Back in the day they had the Egyptian gods, which were merely representative of human interests/appetites like pleasure, prosperity, love... Today, we still tend to IDOLIZE things. We give THINGS greater importance than God. For me, a single guy, RELATIONSHIP probably gets my worship more so than God; if worship is synonymous with devotion of time, money and energy.
HOLINESS does not really come easy for me. If I stand before God and He judges me, I will certainly be found guilty of having violated his laws. There is no question of my guilt. When asked "who can be saved?" Jesus answered his disciples, “What is IMPOSSIBLE with men is possible with God." He also says "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life." This seems like an extremely TALL order that Jesus is requesting here. Is he really asking us to SACRIFICE everything? That seems pretty… “impossible.†Once Jesus was crucified, even his closest friends weren’t able to lift a finger to do anything for the kingdom. These were men who WALKED alongside Him! They were now hiding in fear. After His resurrection, Jesus appeared to His friends and promised to send them a "Comforter" or “Helper†(the Holy Spirit) whose job it would be to empower them to go and spread the gospel.
Why am I sharing all this with you? You said you TRIED. You TRIED but were not able toâ۠Your words are reminiscent of the Apostle Paul - "the things that I want to do, I do NOT do; and those things that I ought NOT do, those things I STILL do.. Oh wretched man am I! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Jesus knows our hearts, Mike.. and yet He loves us. Passionately. Unwaveringly. He asks us to love Him back the same way, with all our heart, mind and strength. In my “natural†strength and ability, I can’t do that. But I can do “all things THROUGH CHRIST WHO STRENGTHENS ME.â€Â
shucks
In my first post which you commented on I place myself in the position which others would say I have of having a choice, it does not mean I think it a correct position or my real one. My point is that there is not a choice so one cannot be made which is why the word "because" sets the context. Just out of interest I've looked at my posts and cannot see were I used the word "can't"(as in make a choice)?
How about what I was actually commenting on though, Punishment now (head cut off not for not believing) or punishment later( hell later for not believing) whats the diffrence? Punishment is still punishment, threats are still threats.
Regards
Steve
Mike2685,
If you dont mind, *hug*.
I recognize your frustration, and maybe a little pain.
I've been following your posts. Perhaps you WERE made homosexual, I dont know. I know there is no conclusive evidence either way if that is what happens. I dont know what happened to you before you were old enough to remember. I dont know if something happened you have blocked out. And of course, there is no way for anyone to answer those sorts of things. As you've said, development of sexual identity is not well understood. I'm not trying to be accusatory, simply point out that it may be you were created one way and something that you are unaware of occurred to move you another way. Until we face God, we may never know.
I hear your heart speaking through your posts. I agree with you that God makes no mistakes.
As I was reading and praying, God brought to mind Jesus healing a particular person, saying neither he nor his parents had sinned, but he was made that way so the work of God could be displayed in his life. Perhaps you are being used to bring God glory. Only God can know this.
John 9:1-7
1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3 "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4 As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world." 6 Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. 7 "Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.
But notice, God healed him. I have no idea if this is a message of hope and encouragement for you or a prophecy or a warning. But I DO know God demands love and obedience, just as any Father would. God DOES love you, Mike.
mike there is only one Spirit and only one way to know the Truth. I know you are struggling , we all do. You are not rare in struggles, but we still have to admit that sin is wrong not justify it in any way. You may still struggle and mess up , but you can always go to Jesus no matter how many times a day you do mess up and be forgiven. 50 times a day or a thousand you will be forgiven for sinning after being Saved.
Homosexuality is no choice! Good God, I don't see why Christians are so opposed to thinking that people could possibly be born with a homosexual orientation. I don't understand what you think is so appealing about being gay. I have handed my life over to Jesus. I have prayed feverishly that I not be gay anymore, but you people are so hell bent on saying that there is no way Jesus made me gay that you don't stop to think you are trying to play God. I tell you I have tried and tried, yet I have not been changed, and then you tell me I just haven't tried hard enough. EXCUSE ME? No one in this room knows me, nor does anyone know God's plan for me, so don't you dare, for one minute, pretend you know better and I'm just some ignorant God hating sinner who's life is in despair. Jesus works in mysterious ways. He knows what is truly in my heart, and there is not lust for my partner. I have lusted many times before, I can clearly tell you there is a difference, but if I told you that, you would tell me I am wrong and don't know myself at all. I am so done with Christians who feel this sense of entitlement, and couldn't possibly be wrong, because they read the Bible. OF COURSE YOU CAN BE!!! How foolish to insist that you are able to interpret correctly the inerrant word of God. Jesus himself confused many, many people when he spoke, yet he spoke to everyone in some way. Perhaps he speaks to me in a different way than he does to you.
There is a choice to be made. Turn your life over to Jesus lock, stock and barrel or be stuck where you are.
Jesus can pull you out of the mess you are in. He's pulled every born again Christian out of the mess they were in. The problem comes in that you don't seem to be willing to grab the rope with all that you are, let go of where you are and trust Him to pull you up.
Sin, no matter what it may be, is what you are trapped in. The choice is to admit you are trapped and need Jesus to save you from it. Until you reach that point you are still hanging on to where you are.
That is the real choice. The choice of homosexuality is a choice of 'omission' vs 'commission'. You choose not to let go and hang onto Jesus.
There wasn't any wordplay. In one post you said you choose not to and the other you said you can't. Please clarify..
P.s I should add shucks, that times must be tough for you if you have to resort to word play...
Steve
Shucks
No contradiction at all, you left the word "because" out of the quote which changes the context entirely. I always wondedred what it is like to be taken out of context, its quite enjoyable actually. So once again, I (and nobody else does for that matter) don't have to make that choice because there is not one.
Kind regards
Steve
Steveh20,
"2. I don't have a choice, because there is not one to be made."
But you said:
"...I choose not to believe hell awaits me in eternity"
Whaaaaa....contradiction much???
DP
Two things...
1. Would I be placing words into your mouth to say that you agree with my point?
2. I don't have a choice, because there is not one to be made.
Steve
Steve...still the choice is yours.
jsaljsalj
Whilst it may be true that in our countries we do not get our heads cut off is we choose not to believe, it is at the end of the day in many ways just a punishemnt delayed because if I choose not to believe hell awaits me in eternity, so one way or the other its punishment now or later....
Steve
"Being gay is not a choice."
The Bible says we are bound by our sin. We are trapped with no choice to get out. The only time any of us have a choice to reject sin is if we have submitted our life to Jesus and use the power of HIS resurrection to overcome sin. It doesn't matter what the sin is.
If God says to live life a certain way and he promises a way out of sin then there is a choice. YOU just have to be in a position to make that choice and that position is in submission to HIM for your entire life...every aspect of it. If you feel that you don't have a choice it's because you have not made the great exchange...your death in sin for HIS life through the resurrection. It's simply what the Bible says.
I have NO idea on my own what God wants for others lives. It is the Bible that says what God wants. I don't presume to know any more for someone else then what is in the Bible. I don't even presume to know any more for my own life then what is in the Bible!
The best way to tell if you have been 'off roading' is to look at the undercarriage! If there are pieces of tree stuck in the under carriage of your life it's safe to say you've been off roading since God takes better care of His road then the DOT....
This doesn't mean you won't have problems in your life. Quite the opposite. However, rest assured that off roading is way worse!
"Did God create hell knowing he would most of us in it? "
Actually, the creation of hell is a question of some debate. One thing is clear that hell was prepared for the devil and his 'angels'. They are going for sure.
The Bible says God wants 'none to parish'. Satan and his bunch are going to hell because of disobedience to God. Jesus came to die in our place so that we could be forgiven of our disobedience and not go to hell. This is open to everyone who believes. Therefore, none of us have to go to hell. Still, even here we have jail for those who are disobedient.
Still, Adam and Eve messed up this gig for all of us. Your position presumes that we deserve to be forgiven. We don't. None of us have done anything that merits a perfect God forgiving us. It is because of HIS love and mercy that he made it possible. Still, it is on His terms and not ours.
The law of the Old Testement was there to prove to our human ego that infact we are sinners who need a savior. The grace of the Gospel provides that savior. So, now comes the choice. Do you accept the grace or stay condemned by the law?
Consider this comment - "how do you alone know the kind of person God wants others to be?"
This is one of those common arguments leveled at Christians - "who are YOU to speak for God?" or "how is it that YOU know and YOU'RE right and no one else knows?"
I guess, the real question, or ROOT question is - "there are many faiths; why should I believe YOU?" My answer would be "DON'T!" Don't believe ME. God gave you all a brain, use it. Pick up the Book and read it for yourself. Don't just (to borrow someone's phrase) regurgitate arguments you've heard made against Christians and made against the Book. Pick it up for yourself, read it, and then decide. There are sections of the scriptures that I have a problem with - yes, even as a Christian - why? Because I am a thinking, reasoning person who is trying to follow Jesus' teachings (not what others say about His teachings, but straight from the Savior's mouth).
The Bible says "come and let's REASON together." It does not say come and follow blindly like a (to borrow someone's phrase) "parrot" or a puppet. It says to "test the scriptures," meaning DON'T JUST ACCEPT WHAT YOU READ BLINDLY.
In HUMILITY, though, there also needs to come a point where you recognize - where I recognize that I will not be able to know everything. I will not be able to answer EVERY question... and the Bible even cautions the believers "the just shall live BY FAITH" (not FACT, but FAITH). As you a Father-child relationship, there's going to be a point where your Dad asks you to simply TRUST Him. This is not unlike any other relationship, parent-child, marital, friendships, etc. "I'm not going to give you ALL THE INFO right now; you're simply going to have to TRUST me." I know what some of you are thinking right now - well, what kind of friendship is that? or That seems unfair, doesn't it!? I'm not giving you ALL THE INFO... what-the-heck? Well.. answer me this.. scenario: you're in the operating room and the neurosurgeon or heart surgeon is about to open you up to do major life-saving surgery... all he asks you to do are two things: 1) get on the table, and 2) trust him to do his job. You start asking him questions, a lotta questions, and you really, really want answers, you want to know the risks, the procedure, the success rate, etc. And all he says is "trust me."
It's a weird analogy, I know. But the key to understanding it is that - if you pick up the Book and really start reading it - the first thing that will probably jump out at you is that YOU HAVE A PROBLEM. For the sake of my analogy, we can call it "sickness." The Bible calls it sin. You are in need of open heart surgery or brain surgery, whatever. The Great Physician Himself asks you two things - 1) get on the table, and 2) trust Him to do His job.
Lina, you may consider taking your own advice -- "say something that couldn't have been plagiarized, memorized, or regurgitated by the many millions of parrot-like" Christian bashers. The peculiar thing is that those antagonistic toward the Christian faith may start out arguing topically, factually, point-by-point, by inevitably end up name-calling. Let's see - "weak minded, illiterate, parrot-like," just to name a few.
Please try to understand something, Lina - I am a Christian, but that does not mean that I wrote the Book. I happen to believe it. That's all. Consider this - if TOMORROW I stop believing what the Bible says, does that make it any LESS true? I'll repeat that... if TOMORROW I stop believing (and there are many who have professed to believe and then later turned away from the faith), does that prove anything?
My point - the authenticity of the Bible did not begin with me, does not depend on me, and is not here to accommodate me or make my life somehow more convenient. This is not MY story. This is HIS story. You are 100% free to not believe any of it... if it turns out to be true, though, YOU and I both will have a lot to answer for. If it turns out to be malarchy, no harm, no foul.
You're being inconvenienced by Christians - so what? Join the club. In this country, every group is inconvenienced by some other group who rubs them the wrong way (I am inconvenienced everyday by teenagers blasting their hip-hop misogynistic profanity from their car stereos, but so what what - I'll live); Christians do not have a monopoly on this. Thank God at least we live in a country where - if you don't choose to believe as I believe, you can still go about your life without fear of HAVING YOUR HEAD CUT OFF.
lina, it's bedtime for the believer so we'll talk more tomorrow, have a good night, believer
lina, what if its all a hoax? Overall since I became a Christian I wouldn't change hardly anything. I love being a preacher and being in the pulpit and sharing with others what God has shared with me, but I love even more working with kids and showing them things that I'd given anything to have known at their age. That in spite of anything about me God loves me and wants to be my heavenly Father and Jesus Christ wants to be my Savior and Lord and my Friend as well. I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional home, didn't have many close friends and as a teen couldn't get a girl to like me if my life depended on it. And I know there are a lot of kids who have it worse than I did. And now God has given me the ability and opportunity to be used of Him in making a difference in these kids' life to let them know that they aren't a mistake or accident and that God not only created them on purpose but created them for a purpose. And if all that God stuff is a hoax, there is one thing that isn't, my love for them and my desire to make a difference in their life. So regardless of what ever happens to them in this life they can look back and remember there was this guy oh yeah he was kind of goofy and crazy, but one thing about him is he really genuinely cared about me. Just knowing that makes it all worth it. In fact when I get to heaven that's all I want to hear from God is to know my life made a difference for the cause of Christ, people got saved and lives were changed because I willingly allowed God to use me for His glory and service.
lina, it's not me alone who knows what Gods' desire is for individuals because most of His desires are clearly taught in His Word. If sharing what I believe is God's truth makes them miserable I'm sorry but I don't apologize for it. You mentioned you go to the gym and workout. I used to run long distance competitively for the Air Force. If I wanted to be the best runner I could be there were times my workouts made me miserable and I had to make certain sacrifices as well if I was to be successful in competition. The Bible teaches that if we want to be the person God designed us and desires us to be there are certain things we need to do and not do to make that happen and initially we may be miserable for a while. But when we begin to see ourselves becoming that person, when we begin to see the fruits of our labor we realize that the work and the sacrifices were well worth it. As I came to realize as a competitive runner, no pain no gain.
lina, my concern whether you want to believe it or not is for the spiritual well-being of others. The unfortunate thing is that also includes sharing those things that will keep a person from becoming the person God wants them to be. My whole life doesn't revolve around this site, but I do enjoy interacting with people and sharing ideas and views I believe God would have me to. My goal is not to change people since I can't anyways but to share with them what I believe God's Word teaches them they need to do or don't need to do to become the person God wants them to be so they can live their life to its' fullest and most importantly become a child of God and inherit eternal life. Plus I also speak to the subject of the article and do my best to present my view from a godly and biblical perspective. Unlike you I am not convinced a person is born homosexual, I primarily believe it is ultimately a matter of choice, but I will not rule out the possibility of the predisposition or a person having a bent toward homosexuality concept, but even that view in my opinion ultimately rests on the person making a choice or choices.
Jesus loves you Lina!! :D
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God is Righteous lina mankind is not, mankind is evil and kills and tortures and rapes and lies and steals for the pleasure of it.
God passes True Judgement for these crimes which is something mankind cannot embrace without God.
Now God did create Adam in his image! to live and be happy to create and comprehend and be God's son! To have fellowship with God! Adam did rebell and now his rebellion and sin has passed down to all his generations, if Adam never did rebel Jesus would not have to die for us, and all the earth would be in peace with God and our Fellowship with him not interrupted. Jesus is our Reconciliation with God. Those who want to continue to walk in Rebellion will be Judged on there crimes or sins, This is True Justice. Now on the lake of fire, this was made for the Rebellious Angels who thought to take God off his Throne! All mankind that continues to rebell will join them. Just like that. simple.
mike2685, as a matter of fact my sister-in-law and her roommate are being considered to be foster parents for three little children whose Mom has some serious mental health issues and it possibly could lead to them getting full custody of the children, but one of the questions that was asked during the evaluation process was with regards to their sexual orientation and their relationship with one another. If they would have admitted to it being a homosexual relationship, I believe the whole process would have stopped right there.
Here'e my point...I stay on the road. The Bible talks about Him directing our paths. So, just because you enjoy 4-wheeling in the area of relationships doesn't mean you are on the road God laid out. The Bible is the road map that says where the boundries of the road are.
Just because one can do a thing doesn't mean one must or should do that thing.
Believer, I have a question for you. You have shared before that your sister lives as a roommate to another women in a non-relationship way. They share a household, and you have said you would be in support of domestic partnership laws for them. How would you feel about them adopting a child together, if they both really wanted a child, but being without a husband couldn't conceive and didn't want to raise the child alone? I'm wondering if "same sex parenting" would fly more with Christians if it wasn't always thought of as a gay thing.
mike2685, I agree and it bothers me when people make that assumption. As I've shared before I know several homosexuals and to be honest none of them fit the so-called pervert stereotype that so many equate with a person who is said to be a homosexual, but at the same time I truly believe God's Word condemns the sexual practices of homosexuality and I would be remiss as a brother in Christ not to be concerned for your spiritual well being in this area of your life.
That's fine and dandy Daniel. My partner and I go many nights without having any sort of sexual relations (besides a few kisses here and there) so I would say our love is built on our mutual respect and devotion to one another. The physical intimacy surely helps build that love and respect as it does with a straight couple, but I would say my moral compass is pretty due north compared to many straight people's. It drives me nuts when people say that I am some wicked Godless sex machine just because I am gay. Are there many gays who make fun of Christians and God? Absolutely, but there are just as many (actually, probably more) straights who do the same thing. It is not at all fair to try and box me into a group that is fanaticized by the mainstream media, as I'm sure you wouldn't want to be put in a group with people like Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church who claim to be Christians, yet thank God for 9/11.
Unrestrained attraction results in chaos. It is the balance found in gravity that keeps us all from flying off the planet. It is the balance provided by the driver that keeps a car on the road instead of just going where force would take it.
Morals determine the level of balance in the area of sexual attraction. One whose only moral is self gratification can simply go where pleasure can be found. Those who have morals based on God's love and His rules place love above pleasure. They understand that love is based on the person and not what pleasure results between them physically. Quite frankly, physical pleasure is not consistant in a marriage. For marriage to last, love from both sides must be.
The problem comes in when people think love=sex. It does not. The concept of love=sex is a myth proven in the 60's. www.brookwoodchurch.org is doing a sermon series called "The Summer of Love" based on the 60's vs. I Cor 13. I've found it interesting. They have their sermons on line. Their people are wearing tie-dyed T-shirts out and about in our area with "The Summer of Love" printed in big letters on the back!
mike2685, but is the sexual attraction just a part of the attraction or can it be the only attraction? For instance my sexual attraction for my wife never began until after we started dating.
yup...the true attraction towards another person, sexual, intellectual, spiritual, etc. is something I can't see as choice
mike2685, are you talking sexual attraction?
I think many people are told they are gay even though the may just have "feminine" attributes, but I'm not totally sure how that ties into the whole choice thing. While some people may go through phases because people tell them they are gay, I have been attracted to guys for as long as I can remember.
mike2685, I guess that's the question that needs to be answered. What is a homosexual? I may have shared this with you before, just because a man or a woman does not desire to have sex with someone of the opposite sex does not make them a homosexual, just because a man or a woman prefers the non-sexual companionship of someone of the same-sex more than someone of the opposite sex does not make them a homosexual, it is only when a man or a woman believes that the only way they can be sexually gratified is to have sex with a person of the same sex or chooses to be only sexually gratified by someone of the same sex is one truly a homosexual. Based on that I feel there are some who have either been labeled or who have been led to believe that they are homosexual. For instance in our society if a man show traits that are "normally" associated with females he is often labeled a homosexual or if a woman shows traits that are "normally" associated with males she is often times labeled as a homosexual. As unfortunate as it is if you tell a person something often enough they eventually buy into it regardless if it is true about them or not. And yes I know there are homosexual males who are very masculine and females who are very feminine. Does this make any sense or am I way out in left field in my assessment?
Believer, perhaps God did not make you cross eyed as a child, but surely he was able to use you. I don't know why I am gay. I know there certainly was no choice that I had a say in. If you prefer to believe it was something beyond nature, I can't really prove otherwise (nor can you prove that it wasn't nature.) That being said, I do believe God has been able to, and will continue to use me being gay as a positive thing in my life because of the reasons I listed below. I don't think Satan had a part in this, because God has a plan for everyone. Perhaps God didn't intend for you to be cross eyed, but he did have a plan to use you as a result of it.
mike2685, heading to lunch so don't think I'm ignoring you because I want to go further in this discussion, believer
mike2685, although I don't agree with your lifestyle I am truly impressed with your maturity as a 23 year old. I would have thought based on your posts you we in your mid-30s. But I am having a hard time believing God created you homosexual so you could experience rejection. I was born cross-eyed and as a result of corrective surgery as a toddler I have no depth perception. As a boy growing up in Rochester NY, the rite of passage and acceptance as a boy was to be able to play baseball well. I stunk at baseball, I was the kid the team got stuck with, I thought I was just a loser because I never found out until I joined the Air Force that I had no depth perception and there was a legitimate reason I couldn't play baseball. I wonder how different my life growing up would have been if I knew that as a young boy. But I don't believe God made me cross-eyed and took away my depth perception, but I do believe He can use me to minister to others as a result of that. And yes, I believe God can use you to minister to others as a result of your struggles, but I can't believe God purposely created you homosexual for that reason or that He created you homosexual at all. As I have been reading the posts from both sides of this issue I have come to believe there are two possibilities why a person is homosexual. The first that it is purely a choice on the part of an individual. The second is that a person may be born with a predisposition or bent toward the homosexual lifestyle and as a result of their life experiences they make a choice to buy into that predisposition or bent. In both cases choice is still the primary act that leads a person into the homosexual lifestyle. Please realize I see a big difference between God doing and God allowing something to happen in a person's life.
Search, awesome post! I'm only 23, but I went through a period so dark of self loathing that I seriously contemplated suicide. What snapped me out of it was the question: Would God rather have me alive and gay, but doing good deeds and helping others, or dead, but trying my hardest to fool myself into thinking I am straight? I am a special educator in the inner city. I work with families of children with autism part time. I volunteer at a non-kill animal shelter. I know God blesses my life and what I do. Believer, I do believe God made me gay for a reason, for more than one actually. I think, had I not been gay, I would have been born with straight, white male privilege. I grew up in a very nice part of CT and would never have challenged any of my racism or sexism had I not also been a victim of so much hatred. By being gay, I have been able to see what it is like to be judged simply for something you never choose, and therefore my heart aches with compassion for others in similar predicaments. Secondly, I believe God wants me to adopt a child. Because I am gay, I will not be procreating, however there are hundreds of thousands of children in the US alone who need to be in stable, loving homes. My partner and I can provide just that. Many argue that "all children need a mother and father" and while I agree, many, many children do not have that. It would be selfish of my to sit on my decent salary and never adopt a child to give them an education and a loving home to come to every day. While they may be teased for having 2 dads, all children are teased for something, and at the end of the day, the most important thing is having someone at home you know will love you no matter what.
lina, but just think if God would have done that you never would of had a chance to meet me and I have genuinely enjoyed posting with you. And that's what it's all about God desiring to have a close personal relationship with each one of us and so that we could have meaningful relationships with each other as well. But unfortunately Adam and Eve chose to love self as opposed to love God and the other more than themselves individually and that messed every thing up to the point that God had to send His Son, Jesus Christ to die for our sins so once again we could enter into a personal and growing relationship with Him once more.
Lina,
Have you not noticed? Atheism IS a belief system. The law recognizes this, and so do others.
Their faith is in people who think a certain way, rather than a God. The mantra is "respect free-inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake." Its preists are scientists and psychologists and philosophists who deny the existence of the spiritual realm. The doctrine is: "Elevate man and the rational. Denigrate the spiritual/magical/irrational. God can not exist, so find other ways to explain what exists". Therefore, nothing can be interpreted to give rise to the possibility that God exists. The preists protect the religion by attacking (verbally, financially, etc) whomever they decide is not following the doctrine of atheism.
The thing is, By being so dogmatic, atheists are either blind or hypocritical. By automatically denying the existance of the spiritual realm, if there IS a spiritual realm, then atheists have prevented themselves from being able to interpret data accurately. By stating there is no god, they say the spiritual realm is not a valid thing to pursuit or respect. But this goes against the idea of atheists being able to "respect free-inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake." In fact, if any inquiry is in an area atheists do not agree with, they attempt to denigrate it and shut it down or shut it out. Hmm.. Sounds like the Inquisition. There is no respect there, yet atheists claim to respect free-inquery. There is no openmindedednes, but atheists claim to be openminded and to respect such.
Atheists are either hypocritical, illogical, or blind to the truth, or in some cases, all of these.
search, what do you think God's purpose is for having a person be homosexual? You are honestly the first homosexual who professes to be a Christian I've ever known who has made a statement like that. So I'm very interested in hearing your answer, thanks.
Search4God - You are absolutely right - God does love you unconditionally, but it was not God that showed you that homosexuality is normal, and that you were created that way. God would be a hipocrite if he created you as a homosexual, then condemned it in the Bible. And we know that God is not a hipocrite! The tendency toward homosexuality itself is not the sin. It's the actions that go with it. If I choose as a single person to have sex outside of marriage, which was created by God for a man and a woman to procreate, then I too am a sinner. You have also been deceived if you believe that all the scientific data suggest that homosexuality is normal. Actually, the gay activists have tried to prove that, but have not been able to do so.
I work in the field of mental health, and I don't know if you are aware, but initially the person who listed homosexuality as a disorder in the DSM was pressured to take it out of there, and has since in recent years admitted that it was a mistake to remove it from the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). I know people who have struggled with homosexuality, and only with God's help have overcome it. He provides you with the one source of help - Himself! Please don't be deceived by thinking that God is showing you that homosexuality is normal. I know no one would choose that lifestyle, with the difficulties and judgements that go with it, but I would hope that you would turn again to God and really listen to what He is saying. God Bless
Hi All,
"Love thy God with ALL thy heart and ALL thy mind and ALL thy soul."
At the risk of everyone thinking that I have an agenda unscrupulous, I will first admit that Biblical "Love" is not "sex", it is "Acceptance". That "sex" can be but is not always, a physical manifestation of "Love". Each individual upon this earth should take great care in sexual matters. Anything which is "selfish" sex or other, is a Biblical sin. You know, or will understand this upon reading your Bible. "Selfishness" is the base of All sin from the story of the fruit of the garden on. In fact, the "FRUIT" of the garden is symbolic of selfishness itself.
It took me many years of praying to God in the name of Christ, Jesus Christ, the only one in my life that "Loved" (Accepted) me unconditionally. Almost 40 years of praying that God would make me "normal".
Don't talk to me about change as such, you have no idea what it is like to live one's life in self-loathing and self-hatred.
I am past 50 now, and God has shown me the error of my ways. All scientific studies conclude that homosexuality is normal, in humans and the animal world.
I prayed all my life, in the name of Jesus Christ, that God make me a "normal" person. I was almost 40 years old when, while reading the Bible, after a prayer in the name of Jesus, that God explained to me that the Bible is not pornography.
That all sin is based in selfishness, not sex.
I was created homosexual. I tried desperately to not be homosexual. Even dating girls who would decide to love me and end with broken hearts (not bragging but feeling terrible for what I did to them, it was selfish of me).
Neither God, not Christ allow for the persecution of any neighbor, no matter how far the neighbor lives from one. I know this now, as I know that I was so wrong to persecute myself. How many years I wasted where I might have been helpful to someone else but I was crying because I was not heterosexual.
God creates all things living, Satan has only the power of deception, not creation. Psychiatric change of sexuality does not work, though I often have wished it would. It makes the patient celibate sometimes, to live a life alone in the world but it usually messes the psyche of the patient to the patients detriment.
Yes, God, in Christ can do all things. However, as I have learned, there is a purpose, in God, for homosexuality that most cannot see. Even most homosexuals cannot see the purpose.
Loveya,
Search4God
Lina,
As you know, leadership in an organization often does not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the membership. but even so, I think these organizations have been influenced to change their position in favor of homosexuality.
A conspiracy? I do not know. I DO know that homosexual activists have long had an agenda to gain acceptance and being embraced by society as normal. They have become influential in a number of areas, such as television and movie production. This in turn influences society.
lina, not odd because the forgiveness of our sins required a perfect sacrifice and only Christ could be that sacrifice because only Christ was both perfect and without sin.
Well put believer. I must say: I respect you for tolerating my less-than-diplomatic posts.
lina, Socrates was right in a way, because to be honest there are a lot of questions you and others ask about God that I cannot answer because in comparison to God I know nothing and in fact the more I do learn about God the more I realize how little I know about God. But I do know He loved me enough to send His Son to die for me and because I put my faith/trust in Him and the person and finished work of His Son, Jesus Christ, He is my heavenly Father and one day I'll be going to live with Him for all eternity. And I have to end our posts with that as I need to head to bed, have a good night and I'll check out your posts in the morning.
luna,
First, you misunderstood my point: the APA held its view until pressured from outside. They themselves were not part of any conspiracy.
RE: atheism = religion, check this out:
"The Court elaborated upon the Seeger definition in Welsh v. United States, 398 U.S. 33 (1970), stating that '[i]f an individual deeply and sincerely holds beliefs that are purely ethical or moral in source and content but that nevertheless impose upon him a duty of conscience to refrain from participating in any war at any time, those beliefs certainly occupy in the life of that individual a place parallel to that filled by... God in the lives of traditionally religious persons.' Thus, religious beliefs include many beliefs (for example, Taoism, Buddhism, and Secular Humanism) that do not posit the existence of a Supreme Being in the conventional sense."
Legal definition: atheism is a religious belief.
And it does not strike you as glaringly odd that God would sacrifice his child to redeem the world? It seemed his first plan of mass-execution through a great flood was at least more reasonable (and believable) to rid the world of "sin" (however you define it).
lina, when Christ was on the cross for a moment in time His heavenly Father had to turn His back on Him because He took all the sins of the world past, present, and future on Himself and God in His perfection could not look upon that sin. Yes, Christ suffered pain and agony the world had never or will never know for your and my sins, but the worst pain and suffering of all was when He realized for a moment in time His Father had forsaken Him. No lina this has nothing to do with entertainment, but it has everything to do with God's love for you and me, that He would love us enough to allow His Son to go through that pain and agony because it was the only way we could have a way to enter into a personal relationship with God through the person and finished work of Christ on Calvary.
Mathlete - you are convinced that the mental health community is behind a conspiracy to recast homosexuality as natural. And you call atheism a religion. And you call yourself rational?
lina,
You are beginning to sound a bit too much like cccc/dddd/eeee. I bid you a good night. We will let other readers look at our posts and decide who is rational and who is angry beyond reason.
These are pretty hefty questions but your answers flow with such conviction. I'm still humbled by Socrates philosophy: I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing. Still the mark of an educated person in my opinion. And again believer I ask you: what was God's purpose for this? If you're an all-powerful deity who can do as you please, it sounds like sheer entertainment to me
lina, it is not God's desire that any of us should be destroyed. His desire is that each one of us would come into a personal relationship with Him. He proved this by allowing His only Son, Jesus Christ to die on the cross for all the sins of mankind so we could enter into that relationship with Him. It's like if your on a ship that is sinking and your life can only be saved if you take a life jacket from the ship's captain and if you don't you will drown and die. If you refuse to take the life jacket and indeed you drown and die, is it the ship's captain's fault or is it a result of your own choosing. The same is true for you and I we can choose to accept Christ or we can choose to reject Christ, each of those choices has consequences we reap on ourselves by the decision we each make. God has made a way so that no one would have to spend eternity in hell, but He leaves the choice up to each individual, He doesn't force anyone to go to heaven or hell, He leaves the choice up to us. The same way no one can force you to love them, God will not force any one to love Him either.
Mathlete - your convictions and life philosophies are about as interesting as an eggplant or asphalt but more infuriating than a dictator. You have absolutely no logic-filter on the words coming out of your mouth. And such, you should rightly be mocked.
So WB - the entire APA is in on a big conspiracy, huh? All 140000 mental health professionals? Same for the AMA? And the American Anthropological Association? And the national association of social workers? All in on the conspiracy to recast homosexuality as natural? I guess all of Western Europe is too.
lina,
I have simply asked questions about your posts. Were your post supposed to be beyond questioning? If your posts represent the calm rationality required for better government, then we may be in trouble.
Does atheism cling to any pre-determined beliefs? No. Is it malleable? Yes. Is your sky-fairy belief malleable? No. That's why it's a religion is atheism is not. Would you also call me a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist because I don't accept either as rational?
Again mathlete: you are demonstrating just st*pid you are. Atheism is not a religion. It is simply stating the obvious. There is no evidence for God. Never was. Religion has nothing to add because its very foundations are fictional. Atheism, on the other hand, is built upon evidence.
Listen to all your disgusting hateful b.s. You will say and do anything to vindicate your ridiculous Bible verses.
lina wrote: "No religion is welcome. They have nothing to add. Never did."
So no one can be involved in politics, because everyone is something. Even atheism is legally classified as a religion. So who does that leave?
DavidHart
These are the same groups that used to call homosexuality a disorder. They flip with popular opinion and pressure.
The guy who led the charge to remove homosexuality from the DSM has presented a study that shows it is possible to change "orientation" and be happy. Of course, now he is condemned by the homosexual community.
lina,
You criticize Christian politicians for comparing homosexuals to animals (again without proof), when just 59 minutes prior to your post YOU made the same comparison: "We know that homosexuality is an immutable and harmless natural occurrence observed and recorded in over 1,500 other species."
What the saying about the pot and the kettle?
By the way, lina, I do care what mental health professionals say, especially back when they had integrity. They used to put homosexuality in the DSM (psychpathology book) until political pressure forced the psychiatrists/psychologists to remove it out of fear. How was that advancing science?
C'mon, lina - another unsubstantiated claim? Why must Christians stay out of politics, but every other religion (or no religion at all) is welcome? I'm asking a serious question.
lina, because He loves us and created each of us to enter into a personal relationship with Him and as much as I don't mind responding to your questions why are you asking me questions you not only know my answer to but what I believe is God's answer as well?
OIAEditor,
If your article has as many unsupported accusations as your post here, I will probably skip it. Did you supply any proof here for any of your accusations? Oh, I forgot, you told us about a photo.
Does the Nat'l Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce attempt to influence politics? How about PFLAG? What about all the other pro-homosexual groups? Is NAMBLA political? Seems like everyone (Muslims through CAIR; atheists through Americans United) can try to influence politics, that is, everyone except Christians. Why is that?
lina, no they don't need my help, but like all of us to include you and me we all need God's help to become first and foremost a child of God and then to become more like Christ everyday.
lk, scripture clearly teaches that if we see a brother or sister sinning we are to go to them and deal with them about their sin, but be careful lest we fall into sin ourselves. It's not about condemning them it is about restoring them to fullness in Christ and yes we also need to be praying for them as well. I mean if your child were out playing in the middle of the street would you just pray for them or would you pray they didn't get hit by a car as you were running into the street to get them out of the middle of the street?
You're right. You can't "pray the gay away." Which proves religion is a sham.
I believe that as a Christian, it is my place to pray for anyone outside what the Bible describes as God's will. However, it clearly states that all of us fall short of what God wants for us - happiness, health, prosperity in our physical and our spiritual lives. That's why we pray for one another, so that each of us can continue to grow in our relationship with our Father and have the best and most rewarding lives possible now and live with Him forever in Heaven.
We cannot convince any one who is sinning outright that they must change. In fact, I don't believe that is our job to condemn anyone. Our part as Christians is to love others and pray for them. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to help each of us to grow to be more like Jesus.
Also david, you need to take a look at the bible. All of those sins that require stoning have been let free by the death of Jesus Christ. I understand your ignorancy, I used to be there too, but let me learn you something.
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.
David said:
"You cannot raise a child to be gay."
Oh bologny!! That's not even a decent arguement! You can't raise children to do or be anything. You CAN however, instill in them good morals. Ultimately it's the child's choice what they do or do not want to do.
david, my concern has never been to blame or to politicize the homosexual issue, I know there are some who do. My desire as both a pastor and a believer is to be used of God in enabling all believers in living lives that are totally pleasing to God in order that He can mature them and use them to their fullest for His glory. But I do get weary of people who want to hide behind laws in the Bible that are no longer binding such as the ones you used to condone sinful practices that are condemned in both the Old and New Testament. Ministries like Exodus, I don't believe have any political agenda, their agenda is to be used of God to help people who are struggling with a specific sin in their life to experience the fullness of their salvation in Christ.
Good organization. I am not gay, nor have I ever been in that life style, but have worked with those who were and they were so unhappy deep down. This is a good orginization. I know that everytime they meet, healings and deliverances come about. God bless them.
dongard, you said "well sorry too but you are have to go into detail and prove your case, because otherwise this is all just religious bigotry."
First, I was able to demonstrate my case even ignoring GBS and other problems resulting from the physical effects of Male homosexuality. However, if you would like to learn more about GBS, you can search for the term "Gay Bowel Syndrome"
Biology-online.org defines it as such: gastrointestinal discomfort experienced by homosexual males; includes abdominal pain, cramps, bloating, flatulence, nausea, vomiting, or diarrhoea caused by enteric bacteria, viruses, fungi, zooparasites, or trauma.
I've seen some compelling arguments here, mostly based on love.
However, from what I've seen, some people don't even know what love really is.
Love, to see a woman with an infant in her arms. Love, to see that which is broken being made whole. Love that which is patient and kind, but also just. Love, that which when one is in need, provides out of their own needs. Love, the ultimate in which one gives their
life for another, for there is no greater love than this.
Beloved, love should never be lost or confused, but sometimes it seems that way. We can get caught up in this or that, in the uncertainties of life, the uncertainties of circumstances, that we can sometimes lose sight of what is important. Love.
Brethren, Jesus said love one another as He has loved us. And we should do just that. But this love that Jesus spoke of is not a physical love, it is a love that can only flow from the Holy Spirit. Jesus said love as He loved. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. Therefore, we should love as the Holy Spirit loves us.
In other words, the love that Jesus was speaking of can only come from Him. Not the flesh.
Using love as a basis for a same-sex relation is not the same love that comes from the Spirit, but that which comes from the flesh. The Bible says we are to deny the flesh, and follow after His Spirit, seeking righteousness, daily carrying our cross.
Some can say that they are in a loving relationship, but is this based upon the flesh, or based upon the Spirit? If one says The Spirit, then one better be able to back this Biblically, and this I haven't seen yet.
dannypoo
"Well, technically Male homosexuality does result in a great deal of physical damage to the body. Often leading to GBS and other problems I won't go into detail."
well sorry too but you are have to go into detail and prove your case, because otherwise this is all just religious bigotry. if you were out to believe and convince that would be one thing, but as a very large numbers of christians have proven, here on this board, in contemporary society, and historically, Christians prefer to claim the exclusive right to set, administer and execute laws on the whole of society.
Mike,
"I hate to break it to you, you can still become a diabetic even if you exercise and eat right, so you kind of invalidated yourself on that one."
Thanks for your concern. Perhaps I did not articulate it properly, but I dare say I'm more aware of that fact than you. Still, my behavior will determine whether the odds of contracting diabetes are high or low.
I know that truth. I think you know the truth too.
believer: You are making a choice. Everyone makes scriptural choices. There are many "sins" that we commit every day without much concern. Otherwise, we might all keep Kosher homes. If we stoned everyone sho the bible says should be stoned, we'd all need Tommy John surgery.
The reason that this single issue gets so much attention is by design. It is a wedge issue that energizes religious conservative voters. It is widely used as a tool for fund raising and the accumulation of political power.
So if you want to be a loving person, I suggest that you reject the rhetoric. When a minister blames gays for Katrina or any other disaster, reject that hyperbole.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, accept gay people AS THEY ARE! If any are actually struggling, is is because of repression. Don't cause them to struggle.
Mike, you said "You are equating homosexuality with a disorder that is also a crime. Homosexuality in itself does not lead one to harm another person or themselves in any way. Sexual orientation is about desire, as humans are innately sexual beings. There is a huge difference between desire (love) for your partner and desire (lust) for something you just want. I truly love my partner, you are talking about lusting after something else by comparing homosexuality to cleptomania. "
Well, technically Male homosexuality does result in a great deal of physical damage to the body. Often leading to GBS and other problems I won't go into detail.
However even if I disregard that, again, if the argument is "because my desire doesn't harm anyone, than my desire is ok". Than Incest should be considered "morally" ok as well(as long as both people agree not to have children), which by the way is gaining popularity in being called "genetic sexual attraction".
Polygamy would also become acceptable if we take into consideration the argument from "desire".
Nevertheless most people agree that incestious and polygamous relationships are wrong and/or bad.
In the end, something beyond either of us must determine what is right and wrong, because our feelings, our desires, our hearts ultimately lead us in directions that are not necessarily morally ok, even if they appear like it.
Which is why ultimately when I have this conversation with someone who is Homosexual (which includes a family member of mine), it always gets down to the root of "is there a God, and what does he want regarding our sexuality?"
david, although your point may have some merit with all do respect it has nothing to do with the subject of this article. The issue is, if indeed the Bible declares that the sexual behaviors of a homosexual are sin then what can we in the Christian community do to assist people who are struggling in this area. It's not about putting them in their place or demeaning or belittling them, but rather helping them.
mike2685, but you can chooose not to respond to that attraction. Just because a person is married does not guarantee they won't be attracted to other people, but they can and must choose to not act out that attraction or risk commiting adultery be it mentally or physically and damaging if not destroying their marriage. Plus the question must be asked what is the person being attracted to about that other person.
mathetes: same-sex consenting adult sex doesn't harm anyone. There is absolutely no reason that gay people should "struggle" be celibate or have unwanted heterosexual sex (which many gay people would find repulsive).
What IS harmful is bigotry. Eliminate the repression and this "problem" goes away. However, the repression is used to raise funds and to accumulate political power. This has created a unity of disingenuous talking points. For example, someone on the right got worried a day ago about equating gay rights with civil rights. I have seen at least eight articles today, starting with Dennis Prager, decrying that analogy - all with REMARKABLY similar wording, straw men and argumentum ignoratum.
Mathetes, you're wrong on a few points. I hate to break it to you, you can still become a diabetic even if you exercise and eat right, so you kind of invalidated yourself on that one. Alcoholics can choose not to drink, but they are always alcoholics. Gays can choose whether or not to have sex, that is true, but the actual attraction is not a choice.
Mike,
Interesting that you brought up alcoholism in your earlier post. Many people believe that a predisposition to alcoholism is a genetic trait passed down from the parents. Yet you acknowledge that alcoholics can change. Why not homosexuals?
My mother was a diabetic, so I was born with a genetic predisposition to diabetes. However, I choose what/how I eat, how much/little I exercise, so I am choosing whether I will become a diabetic or not. It's the same if there is a genetic component to homosexuality. You can choose to engage in behaviors that will harm you, or you can choose to live another way. The choice is yours.
mike2685, there are many alcoholics and many in the substance abuse treatment field who would totally disagree with you and say once an alcoholic always an alcoholic. But the issue of choice may not necessarily determine the origin of homosexuality, but it will always determine the sexual behaviors of homosexuality. No body has to have sex either in their thought life or their physical life it is always a choice. But if a person has a bent toward a certain behavior, regardless of its origin, the choice to say no to that behavior will always be a difficult one and chances are there will be relapses in the behavioral life of the person and they will struggle with it until they hit the grave, but just because we struggle does not mean we have no choice.
"The fact is nearly every anti-addiction group has a failure rate that is reasonably high. Groups that involve people who are fighting their desire for pornography also have high failure rates."
The fallacies of that argument are obvious:
1. Addiction programs (with the exception of Teen Action) have scientifically published and peer reviewed outcome research. Exodus does not.
2. Being gay is NOT an addiction. Get it? Again: According to the National Mental Health Association (Mental Health America): "You cannot raise a child to be gay. Nor can parents or therapists change a young person's sexual orientation, just as they cannot change their eye color, race or height."
Exodus only re-closets gays and lesbians. That's NOT success by any definition.
You are equating homosexuality with a disorder that is also a crime. Homosexuality in itself does not lead one to harm another person or themselves in any way. Sexual orientation is about desire, as humans are innately sexual beings. There is a huge difference between desire (love) for your partner and desire (lust) for something you just want. I truly love my partner, you are talking about lusting after something else by comparing homosexuality to cleptomania.
Mike, the statement "Wrong Danny, I am saying gays are born gay based on my experience and yours. At what point did you choose to be straight, probably at the same point I chose to be gay, NEVER."
The fundamental problem in this argument is that it makes the assumption that if someone has a physical desire for something, than whatever it is they are choosing, must be ok.
Tell that to someone who struggles with Cleptomania, then watch as they drive away with your car.
You MUST use more than desire, natural or otherwise, for your argumentation. Otherwise, your logic can be ported over into some interesting social issues that you might not be prepared to deal with.
Wrong Danny, I am saying gays are born gay based on my experience and yours. At what point did you choose to be straight, probably at the same point I chose to be gay, NEVER. There is no choice in the matter of sexual orientation, why would I choose to be a deviant (I have had a perfectly normal upbringing and have 3 straight siblings, so don't assume I have been molested or had a domineering mother.) Exodus is dismissed by every accredited psychological institute in the country for a reason, and that is it is harmful to tell people they can turn into something they can't. Alcoholics can change. Gays cannot.
Mike, you said "Its funny that everyone is ignoring the pink elephant in the corner of the room. Exodus has phenomenally high rates of failure. "
The fact is nearly every anti-addiction group has a failure rate that is reasonably high. Groups that involve people who are fighting their desire for pornography also have high failure rates.
Simply because there are failure rates above what we would like is no reason to dismiss a group or say it's because they are "born" with it.
Your drawing wide-reaching conclusions, based on limited data.
Its funny that everyone is ignoring the pink elephant in the corner of the room. Exodus has phenomenally high rates of failure. This is not because Satan is overpowering gays, it is because for many, many people, sexual orientation is not a choice. Stop looking at the itty bitty pieces of data showing that someone changed their sexual orientation, because really all they did was choose to live a lie. I am gay, I do have God in my life, and I am sick and tired of Christians telling me I don't. I'm sorry, but unless you are Christ yourself, I don't believe you have any place over me to say whether or not God is in my life.
According to the National Mental Health Association (Mental Health America): "You can’t raise a child to be gay. Nor can parents or therapists change a young person’s sexual orientation, just as they can’t change their eye color, race or height."
The APA: "All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons."
Let me clarify - no one should be expressing hatred toward any homosexual person or group. We should show them kindness, love and pray for them constantly.
The flip side is that we must speak the truth to them, in love, and that means being bold for the Word of God. We have to confront them with the sinfulness of the homosexual lifestyle - that there is no life with God in that way of living but only spiritual death and eternal separation from God if they persist. But we must always offer them the Gospel! We must always express the love that Christ has for them if they will repent and turn from their sins, be washed clean by his atoning sacrifice, and serve him faithfully.
The message of the Gospel is not a message of guilt and conviction, for those who live by the Spirit it is freedom, freedom from guilt and freedom from sinful living, and above all *hope* for eternal life with our Creator, the Father, and his Son, the Living Word.
try reading between the lines.
"Exodus has also helped family members and pastors learn how to love their loved ones or congregants who are struggling with gay or lesbian attraction."
translation. Exodus has found a way to make money off of family and friends of gays by validating their "love the sin, hate the sinner" cravings.
God Bless Exodus International!
Yippee!
Thank the Lord for Exodus International!
Thank the Lord for Exodus International! Every time I hear some homosexual claim that they were born that way and *can't* change, I look to a group like Exodus. This group offers hope to those who are caught in the clutches of the homosexual lifestyle to find a way back to God and out of the darkness and depression of that perverted life.
Jesus says "your sins are forgiven; go and sin no more."
itsallaboutjesusnotme.blogspot.com
"The Exodus International network has grown by 71 percent in five years, Chambers noted. The ministry has over 120 local ministries in the country and Canada is also linked with other Exodus world regions outside of North America, totaling over 150 ministries in 17 countries, according to the Exodus Web site. " - article quote
That's really good news, i'm also aware of many other Christian ministries that are similiar to Exodus have been growing greatly over the past 2 or 3 years.(example: http://pfox.org/)
"A group of local gay rights advocates, who are calling themselves Equality Asheville, plan to sponsor a series of events titled "You're Fine Just the Way You Are," according to Asheville's Citizen-Times."
Translation: You are okay and you don't need God!
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Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say...?
Over 700 people! Including many from outside the United States! WOW! What a success!