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World|Wed, Jul. 16 2008 08:22 AM EDT

100,000 Catholics Gather for Youth Event in Sydney

By Tanalee Smith|Associated Press Writer

More than 100,000 Roman Catholic pilgrims from around the world swarmed Sydney Harbor on Tuesday, waving the flags of their countries and singing as they awaited a Mass opening the World Youth Day festival.

  • youth day
    (Photo: AP Images / Gregorio Borgia)
    Pilgrims react as they wait for the opening mass for World Youth Day to begin in Sydney, Australia, Tuesday, July 15, 2008. The massive Catholic youth celebration kicked off Tuesday with an Australian 'G'Day' and a gathering of tens of thousands of international pilgrims at a waterfront site where an opening Mass was to be held.

The star of the show, Pope Benedict XVI, remained ensconced at a retreat on Sydney's outskirts where he was resting before joining the celebrations Thursday.

The scale of World Youth Day was revealed when pilgrims arrived in droves and gathered along a waterfront near the city's landmark harbor bridge for a twilight Mass.

Rites, including the Holy Communion, hymn singing and a sermon delivered by Sydney's Archbishop Cardinal George Pell, left many in tears.

Nearly 250,000 people registered for World Youth Day, more than half from overseas. By Tuesday's opening ceremony, they had arrived — thousands of young people were staying in churches, schools and volunteers' homes. They thronged the city with their official yellow, red and orange backpacks, singing songs, strumming guitars and shouting greetings to strangers on the streets.

The scene resembled a city-sized school camp more than a religious gathering.

Tuesday's Mass began with a procession of groups from 168 countries, waving their national flags as they entered a former commercial wharf in downtown Sydney, renamed Barangaroo.

Aborigines in traditional clothing and white body paint danced and chanted to the strains of a didgeridoo. Addressing the crowd, Prime Minister Kevin Rudd acknowledged the Aborigines as Australia's original owners and read welcomes to pilgrims in various languages, including Italian, French, Korean, the Philippines' Tagalog and Bahasa Indonesia.

"G'day, and have a great time down under," Rudd said.

Rudd, who was raised in a Catholic family but now regularly attends an Anglican church, said Australia would be enriched by the pilgrims' presence.

"Some say there is no place for faith in the 21st century. I say they are wrong," Rudd said to resounding cheers.

In his homily, Pell urged the pilgrims to keep the faith through self-discipline and prayer.

"Many of you have traveled such a long way that you may believe that you have arrived indeed at the ends of the Earth," Pell said. "If so, that's good, for our Lord told his first apostles that they would be his witnesses in Jerusalem and to the ends of the Earth."

As they flooded into the waterfront site, pilgrims scarfed down traditional Australian meat pies, sang and chatted. Parts of the city came to a standstill.

A group of French pilgrims wore stuffed roosters on their heads. Nearby, parishioners from Nottingham, England, sported green felt Robin Hood hats and matching shirts.

"You see so many nationalities and you realize the church is not just Nottingham. It's a world Church," said Father David Cain, who traveled to Sydney with 20 members of the Nottingham diocese.

Later, revelers bopped to a pop concert whose performers pranced on a floating stage in the harbor.

The six-day celebration began when a giant digital countdown clock at the gothic St. Mary's Cathedral downtown ticked past midnight Monday and flashed "G'Day Pilgrims," drawing cheers from youths who had gathered to watch.

There were signs Tuesday the pope is going high-tech. Registered pilgrims received the first of what will be daily text messages from Benedict: "Young friend, God and his people expect much from u because u have within you the Fathers supreme gift: the Spirit of Jesus." It was signed "BXVI."

Meanwhile, a court on Tuesday struck down a law that banned causing "annoyance" to the pilgrims, clearing the way for a protest Saturday by activists opposed to Benedict's policies on contraception, abortion and homosexuality.

"We now have a lot more confidence to take to the streets to condemn Pope Benedict's policies," said Rachel Evans, one of the plaintiffs. "We are glad that the court has ruled that we do have the freedom of expression to communicate our political views."

The New South Wales government had granted authorities extra powers for World Youth Day, saying they were the same as those exercised at big sporting events. Critics said the regulations impinged on free speech.

On Thursday, Benedict will get a traditional Aboriginal welcome and tour Sydney's harbor by boat before delivering a major address at Barangaroo. A papal Mass on Sunday before thousands at a racetrack in the city is scheduled to end the proceedings.

___

Associated Press writer Kristen Gelineau contributed to this report.

Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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  • Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    argyle86: Your question is a fair one. Please refer to Matthew 13:24-30 (link: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2013:24-30;&version=31;). He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

    Regards,

    Matthew

  • Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:05 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    What kind of infallible leader system leads a crusade of extreamism to kill infidels if they do not submit to your God. If the Gates of hell wouldnt prevail against your church than how did satan manage to put heartless killers and warmongers at the head of it in the past?

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:31 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    It has a very distinct ring of those prosperity preachers who have private jets, mansions, etc.

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:30 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Furthermore, how do the words of Christ, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head" square with that of the Pope's lifestyle, who lives in a mansion.

    I'm not saying that we should all live homeless, but come on, if Christ said he has no house to live in, how can we, with a clear conscience, live in a mansion with peticured lawns and luxurious fountains complete with peticured gardens?

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:13 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    I don't want to sound insulting, for I simply want to tackle the issues, and call people when they make fallacious statements, but...

    The Roman church has incredibly poor theology. It's almost as bad as any heretical sect. Infact, if you look at every heretical sect (e.g. Mormon, Jehovah's W, etc.) you'll notice they have a logical 'lineage' of sorts, in which they can trace their church back to the Apostles - much like the Catholics claim.

    The Catholics make the fallacious assumption that when Christ says, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" that there is some sort of continuous lineage built from Peter onwards. Where does it say that Peter will have a successor? There is no logical necessity for this. Christ did not say, "Oh Peter, you are the first Pope, upon you I will build a continuous, successive line of popes after you, from here on to eternity - and they too will be infallible rocks, just as you are."

    Infact, it's rather interesting, because anyone who has more than a curisary understanding of Scriptures, knows that the Apostles, and all believers who overcome will be made into the pillars of Christ's temple (cf. Rev. 3:12). So if you understand the Christ's prophecy of the 'rock' of Christ's church, it properly applies to all believers.

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:55 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    "Difference is that we have a Pope who has the final say on all matters of faith and morals and you do not."

    So the Pope takes the seat of Christ? Should we start praying to the pope, in addition to praying to Mary?

    Should I hold what the pope says above the Word of God? Even when the Pope makes contrary rules to the Bible, such as rules that prohobite priests marrying in the Roman Rite?

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    msnchris70,

    "When you don't have the Holy Spirit leading you into all truth, I'm not surprised how you have it so wrong so often. Without Christ authority and the Holy Spirit guiding you into all truth is it any wonder why Protestants are so confused and divided."

    But we do have the Holy Spirit guiding us, which is why we are not following the RCC. As I said, you, the RCC, and Scripture do not line up.

    "The Holy Spirit is the God of clarity not confusion."

    Exactly! Yet, the RCC is confused about what the Word of God teaches and adds to Scripture.

    "The Holy Spirit was only promised to specific people and those people passed down that authority. You simply reject Christ ability to give men authority in His name."

    The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe (Acts 10:44) to guide us into all truth (Psalm 25:4-6; John 16:13). Jesus said the Holy Spirit would guide us in all truth and bring the Father glory, why is it when the "Virgin" appears that she wants a church built in her honor or for her to be more known, or to make people eat grass and drink dirty water? The RCC is lead by deceiving spirits (1 Tim 4:1-3). In the same way that Saul had priests of the Lord killed (1 Samuel 22:6-21), so has the RCC. In the same way That Saul looked to the dead Samuel, so too does the RCC teach people to look to dead people (1 Sam 28).

    "It's funny you accept the Authority of the Bible, yet not the Church that decided how to give it to you. Funny.If it was not for the Authority of the Catholic Church people would have not believed it was the Word of God for certain."

    Now THERE's arrogance! So you claim the power and work of the Holy Spirit for the RCC, when you cant provide Biblical support for the doctrines of the RCC.

    "Wbmoore and Star and Online, with your relativism it does not make me surprised by any of your answers. "

    What's interesting is that none of us know the other and yet still come to the truth. The RCC, on the other hand, is blinded to some of the truths in Scripture and by the paganism adopted by the RCC, and choose to teach doctrine of false spirits instead of the word of God. And when people have tried to point these errors out, they have been persecuted or worse.

    Acts 7:51
    
"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!”

    At least we are not fooled by the enemy into matters of faith and doctrine (like the Assumption of Mary and talking to dead people) as the RCC is.

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    msnchris70 ,

    "We have rejected men in authority as well, except we didn't break up the only church founded by Christ, but rather we worked within the structure to create change. Some men in authority have sinned against God, but no one said there would not be bad people in high places...even Jesus picked Judas. Difference is that we have a Pope who has the final say on all matters of faith and morals and you do not. "

    The problem is, the popes have been, or are, heretical as well, as we have seen in our discussions. In different times in history the popes have embraced pagan ideas and ideas that go against the Bible. Then they teach these bad ideas. When people have tried to correct these doctrines, they were persecuted. The RCC has proven it does not want to follow the word of God over the ideas of men.

    If you think the RCC does not teach bad doctrine, please provide support for the Assumption of Mary.

    "This is why heresy is still active in your churches.”

    So why is heresy still active in the RCC?

    ” No one has the authority to do anything, since the pastor is more of a CEO and many times owns the property himself. Not much a board of elders can do with that. "

    I think you are out of tune with reality concerning churches, pastors and elders. It may be few pastors has sacrificed for God and provide a building for their flock, but the majority do not have such funds. Rarely do pastors have much authority, as it is hard to lead when its a volunteer organization and if the wolf has gotten among the sheep. The same is true for the RCC.

    "We must follow our Bishops in all things except sin and if that Bishop teaches something that is contrary to the Word of God."

    I repeat, please provide scriptural evidence for the Assumption of Mary. The RCC teaches pagan heresy, which is why I do not follow them.

    "Nothing the Catholic Church officially teaches is contrary to the WORD OF GOD. It all comes implicitly or explicitly from scripture and the Holy Spirit guided our hiearchy through the Bishop of Rome infallibly to the Truth on what these scriptures mean."

    I repeat, please provide scripture for the Assumption of Mary. Scripture says we have one mediator between man and God, Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). Scripture that says we are not to consult with the dead (Leviticus 19:31; Leviticus 20:6). Please show in Scripture where we are to go to a dead person for help (Christ is alive and is risen!)?

    Isaiah 8:19

    When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:49 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "This is why heresy is still active in your churches."

    Hmm, interesting. I thought it was the Roman church who prayed to Mary to interceed for us to Christ. If that's not heresy, I don't know what is. Furthermore, I'd take a second look at your own organization, pretty quick you'll find heretical priests molesting children. Enough said.

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:54 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    msn,

    (Wbmoore and Star and Online, with your relativism it does not make me surprised by any of your answers. Your answers sound a lot like Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses).

    Relativism; we are not the ones who have introduced countless extra biblical dogmas like your religion has. I have had several discussions with Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses who can hold a better argument; they at least will not shy away when apparent discrepancies are found in their faith, they are willing to address them.

    Why can’t you address the points that have been made? You know the obvious contradictions of your faith; address them, instead of attacking the characters of those who disagree with you. Refusing to respond to these rebuttals or ignoring the points that have been made in them really speaks volumes.

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    Wbmoore,

    We have rejected men in authority as well, except we didn't break up the only church founded by Christ, but rather we worked within the structure to create change. Some men in authority have sinned against God, but no one said there would not be bad people in high places...even Jesus picked Judas. Difference is that we have a Pope who has the final say on all matters of faith and morals and you do not. This is why heresy is still active in your churches. No one has the authority to do anything, since the pastor is more of a CEO and many times owns the property himself. Not much a board of elders can do with that.

    We must follow our Bishops in all things except sin and if that Bishop teaches something that is contrary to the Word of God.

    Nothing the Catholic Church officially teaches is contrary to the WORD OF GOD. It all comes implicitly or explicitly from scripture and the Holy Spirit guided our hiearchy through the Bishop of Rome infallibly to the Truth on what these scriptures mean.

    When you don't have the Holy Spirit leading you into all truth, I'm not surprised how you have it so wrong so often. Without Christ authority and the Holy Spirit guiding you into all truth is it any wonder why Protestants are so confused and divided.

    The Holy Spirit is the God of clarity not confusion. The Holy Spirit was only promised to specific people and those people passed down that authority. You simply reject Christ ability to give men authority in His name.

    It's funny you accept the Authority of the Bible, yet not the Church that decided how to give it to you. Funny.
    If it was not for the Authority of the Catholic Church people would have not believed it was the Word of God for certain.

    Wbmoore and Star and Online, with your relativism it does not make me surprised by any of your answers. Your answers sound a lot like Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses.

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:45 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    MSNCHRIS wrote: Brotheraaron,

    "Thanks for finally coming to the Truth of your heretical beliefs. You are against the Church, the authority and teachings of our Lord. Jesus gave His authority to the Bishops, you reject the Bishops, so you are rejecting Jesus. All of our doctrines are implicitly or explicitly from scripture. You reject the authority to bind and lose that was given by Christ to his apostles.

    You simply do not like authority. You are anathema."

    No rebuttal necessary. I'm grateful that the RCC rightfully considers me, a Christian because Christ died for me, anathema. Not that it really has any bearing upon my salvation or anything... I enjoy the reaffirmation that my beliefs are not in alignment with those of apostate Rome. Thank you.
    Msnchris, it is obvious that you love your organization. It is obvious that you love her authority. It is very, very sad that what you love is not the truth; may the Almighty be merciful. You are in my prayers. One day, I would love to call you my brother.

    Aaron

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:05 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    msnchris70,


    "Christ gave His authority to men to safeguard His teachings. You reject these men, so you reject Christ."

    No, we embrace Christ; we reject men in error. There is a difference. Much of the New Testament was written to correct errors being taught in churches. Even men appointed by apostles could apparently teach error, case in point the church at Corinth. It is Christ and the word of God that must be our foundation, not men in error and their thoughts.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:03 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    msnchri70,

    "He Knew we needed leaders and hiearchy, just like any institution does. We have it and you reject it. It is as simple as that."

    I do not reject leadership. I reject leadership that does not walk in line with the word of God.

    "You reject the Bishops who have Christ authority,"

    No, I reject bishops who have the authority of other men and preach error.

    " and yet you follow men or yourself who have never had the laying of hands by a person who had proper authority. You follow men or yourself who do not have binding and loosing authority given by Christ and you follow your own interpretation rather than the interpretation of the hiearchy God put over you."

    As I said, even the Bereans interpreted the bible, and Paul said that was noble. I should trust you, or any other man, over the Bible? I think not.

    "Face it, you all have put yourself as the authority over scripture, which is not only unbiblical but you do not have God's authority. You have created Churches that are not Apostolic. "

    We have created churches that teach the word of God. God gives authority, not man.

    "Because you reject God's authority to leave men in charge over you, then you will always suffer from your pride and will continue to divide and become weak, while many of your best will continue to come home to the Catholic Church."

    It is not pride when you see in the word of God something that directly conflicts with what a church or preist or pastor or bishop teaches and choose to obey God rather than men - this is what the apostles did and it is what we, who recognize the problems in the RCC, do. The weakness is that of men who refuse to acknowledge the word of God over the word of men.

    "You cannot claim to be a Bible Christian since you reject the people God put over you and have not followed the laying of hands to receive actual authority. With authority the Bible comes alive and bears fruit, without authority you die on the vine whether you use the Bible or not. "

    But I am alive in Christ. Again, the word of God and you are in conflict.
    John 15:4
    Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    We remain in Christ. We follow His commands, not make up new ones and claim it is the what God wants.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:01 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    msnchris70,

    "We do not take any man's word over the WORD of GOD."

    I disagree. You have been shown repeatedly how the RCC has taken unbiblical positions, such as the Assumption of Mary, and made it doctrine. The RCC takes God's word and warps it in some cases, using the thoughts of men over the thoughts of God.

    " I take offense to that statment. It is your opinion."

    I'm sorry I have offended you, but the fact remains the Bible should take precedence over the word of man, and in the RCC, it does not.

    " The men God gave His authority to have bound doctrine for the benefit of God's people. We can see that all our doctrines are implicitly or explicitly in scripture. "

    Please show where the Assumption of Mary is in scripture.

    "God gave these Apostles and Bishops the power to legislate, discipline and set doctrine. "

    God calls many people to be different things, not just bishops. And men, unfortunately can choose to not walk with God, if they ever were walking with God. Everything must line up with the word of God, some doctrines and practices in the RCC do not.

    "He also gave these men the power of the Holy Spirit to be drawn into all Truth. This gift of the Holy Spirit was not given to everyone. He was speaking to specific people, just like he called 12 specific men."

    Once again, scripture and you do not agree. Believers receive the Holy Spirit.
    Acts 10:44
    While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

    "Our Bishops, given authority by God, determine doctrine and interpret scriptures under the protection of the Holy Spirit.

    "You simply reject this Christ given authority. A Pope or Bishop of any kind cannot create a doctrine of faith and morals that is implicitly or explictly contrary to Scripture."

    But they have. Case in point, the Assumption of Mary and praying to dead people to intercede on their behalf with Christ and the perpetual virginity of Mary.

    "Don't you think God knew human nature? "

    Yes, that is why He gave us the example of the Bereans checking out everything Paul said in the word of God. I've checked out the doctrines of the RCC and some of them do not line up with scripture.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:54 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

    Article: "100,000 Catholics Gather for Youth Event in Sydney."

    We need to take heed as to what we gather around during these perilous times.

    At one time (maybe it is still done)...

    "When the Sovereign Pontiff dies, his actual death is verified by a quaint ceremony. One of the Cardinals approaches the bedside and strikes the forehead of the dead Pope three times with a silver mallet, calling him by his baptismal name. The death of the Pope being thus legally attested, the Cardinals are summoned to the Conclave to elect his successor." [The Externals of the Catholic Church by Rev. John R. Sullivan of the Diocese of Providence]

    Such things like this happen when we start gathering around the imaginations of our own heart, and start diminishing: All scripture is profitable, the work of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, and Jesus Christ as the head of the church. I appeal to all, do not let churches or men lead you down strange ceremonial paths, and away from the simplicity that is in Christ, and the worship of the Father in spirit and in truth.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:17 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    believer,

    Well said!

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:07 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    chris, why is it when you find yourself in a position where you can't make the practices of your church biblical that you have to take cheap shots at others. Many churches in the SBC do things that are not necessarily biblical, they are extrabiblical and even though I may not agree with their practice I respect their right to practice that way as long as they do not declare it to be biblical and as long as it does not contradict, violate, or supersede the Word of God. But I also believe in the autonomy of the local church which allows each local church to determine before God how they will run their church. One example of that is I have several churches in my Association who are KJV only churches. My concern with you and other Catholics who post here is why do you all have such a problem with simply saying this is a practice of the Catholic Church and leave it at that rather than trying to convince us because we choose not to do it we are showing that we are not the "true" Church or true believers. And I think when you realize you don't have a biblical premise to stand on you either throw in the teachings of past leaders in the Catholic Church and/or if that doesn't work you tend to turn to taking cheap shots at some of us.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:49 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    msn,

    The truth of the matter is, when the obvious contradictions of your religion have been brought to your attention; you have failed to respond specifically to them. Instead you ramble on with false claims that the New Testament speaks nothing of. For example, claiming the Mary is the woman in Revelation twelve; that is humorous to say the least. You continue to misinterpret various portions of scripture, please; do not attempt to interpret the book of Revelation. Eschatology may be too deep for you.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    wbmoore,

    We do not take any man's word over the WORD of GOD. I take offense to that statment. It is your opinion. The men God gave His authority to have bound doctrine for the benefit of God's people. We can see that all our doctrines are implicitly or explicitly in scripture. God gave these Apostles and Bishops the power to legislate, discipline and set doctrine. He also gave these men the power of the Holy Spirit to be drawn into all Truth. This gift of the Holy Spirit was not given to everyone. He was speaking to specific people, just like he called 12 specific men.

    Our Bishops, given authority by God, determine doctrine and interpret scriptures under the protection of the Holy Spirit.

    You simply reject this Christ given authority. A Pope or Bishop of any kind cannot create a doctrine of faith and morals that is implicitly or explictly contrary to Scripture.

    Don't you think God knew human nature? He Knew we needed leaders and hiearchy, just like any institution does. We have it and you reject it. It is as simple as that.

    You reject the Bishops who have Christ authority, and yet you follow men or yourself who have never had the laying of hands by a person who had proper authority. You follow men or yourself who do not have binding and loosing authority given by Christ and you follow your own interpretation rather than the interpretation of the hiearchy God put over you.

    Face it, you all have put yourself as the authority over scripture, which is not only unbiblical but you do not have God's authority. You have created Churches that are not Apostolic.

    Because you reject God's authority to leave men in charge over you, then you will always suffer from your pride and will continue to divide and become weak, while many of your best will continue to come home to the Catholic Church.

    You cannot claim to be a Bible Christian since you reject the people God put over you and have not followed the laying of hands to receive actual authority. With authority the Bible comes alive and bears fruit, without authority you die on the vine whether you use the Bible or not.

    Christ gave His authority to men to safeguard His teachings. You reject these men, so you reject Christ.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    Brotheraaron,
    Thanks for finally coming to the Truth of your heretical beliefs. You are against the Church, the authority and teachings of our Lord. Jesus gave His authority to the Bishops, you reject the Bishops, so you are rejecting Jesus. All of our doctrines are implicitly or explicitly from scripture. You reject the authority to bind and lose that was given by Christ to his apostles.

    You simply do not like authority. You are anathema.

    Believer,
    So now your arguing because we have a gold cup versus a wood cup. There were vestments with the Old Testaments, and even in the first century the Bishops tried to wear different clothes called a uniform because of their office. I know for a fact they didn't wear jeans and a t-shirt or a business suit either. Your argument is a joke.
    Also, you are ignorant to the fact that doctrine developed over time. I think you are clearly deceived by your bias and this is clearly Satan coming after you.
    You are normally reasonable and usually don't use arguements a kin to a fourth grader or like Online or Star2. Keep your debating points to a level that is respectable of your love for Christ.

    Online,

    BLAH BLAH BLAH. Satan has you. Revelation 12 talks about How Mary's children are all those who keep her son's commandments and do His will. The dragon tries to attack Mary but God protects her.

    You and Wilderness are like the Dragon. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

  • Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    They say history repeats itself. Each Christian is called to repeat this walk to the cross.

    As I look at these pictures, I think to myself that this is what God is asking of me.

    I also think that as Christ took this path, was he also thinking about the many ways Satan would go about distracting us from the truth.

    Probably so. Nevertheless, that walk to the cross is the most important one.

  • Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:22 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    The problem with the RCC is that they see the thoughts of men as important as the thoughts of God, or more so. When the Bible does not line up with their thoughts, they use the thoughts of other men to support their thoughts instead of using what the Bible says.

  • Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:21 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Okay, allow me to raise the issue (I raised earlier)again. Why should I ever pray to some saint (e.g. Mary)? I've heard with my own ears a Papist priest pray to Mary to interceed for himself (and the Mass) to Jesus Christ. Why should I ever subscribe to this unbiblical doctrine? Believer and others have raised this point, and the Roman Catholics have never directly made a response to this.

    Largely this thread has turned into bantering and bashing on both sides. Let's stick to the issues raised - plain and simple.

    Wilderness1 raised the point earlier:
    "Ave Maria! thou portal of
    Heaven, Harbor of refuge, to
    thee do we flee: Lost in the
    darkness, by stormy winds driven,
    Shine on our pathway, fair Star of the Sea!
    (Ave Maria! O Maiden, O Mother, Star of the Sea)

    Should we gather around any song, belief, or even an organization that directs us to flee to Mary? Consider that question while meditating on Psalm 143:9: "Deliver me, O Lord, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me"

    How come no Roman Catholic directly responded to this point? I want to know.

    I also want to touch on the celebacy point. I hear the popular Roman stance: it's a practice, not a doctrine. Well again, I'll say, it's a coerced 'practice' therefore it's a rule - "You stay celebate, or you can't be in our Rite" - since this is the case, this practice is a rule, an unbiblical rule at that (e.g. ref. 1 Cor. 9:5).

    I challenge any Roman Catholic to respond to these points. He (or she) must do so without warping the Scriptures, and must not avoid the issues by bringing in some absurd notions about my biases.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:18 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Msn,

    I agree that truth is not relative; it is what God has declared it to be in his Word. It is a fallacy to believe that the Catholic Church was (there) at the beginning; history reveals otherwise. The early church was entirely different from what Catholicism is; when one considers the location, doctrine, and teachings of the Scriptures; one understands that the early church were merely believers in Jesus Christ. So, these labels (Catholic/Protestant) are irrelevant; the early believers were known by the doctrines they adhered to and by the Holy Spirit which lived within them.

    When we carefully review this joint declaration document, we see how ambiguous the language is. That is, it does not clearly define each churches exact understanding of what grace is, or what they mean when they say, (we are saved by grace through faith). Is it imputed or infused, etc. Anyway, this declaration has not been accepted by all Christians because of its vague language.

    You said, (Since we decide that the Gospels are . . .); it was God who gave and preserved his Word to the early Christian church, so your statement is incorrect. Concerning the Good news; you are correct when you say that (Christ died for our sins), he is our substitute; that is he lived a righteous life and gave himself as the Lamb of God as FULL atonement for our sins. We can have FULL assurance that we HAVE eternal life now because of what Jesus did for us.

    He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life (1John 5:12).

    For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God (Romans 8:14).

    And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life (1John 2:25).

    And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son (1John 5:11).

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:19 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    chris, "I'd be bugged too if my church did not believe, act, or worship like the early Christians", there you go on your ego trip again, because the reality is most Southern Baptist churches do just that. Show me in Scripture where the Apostles wore the fancy robes, used chalices made of silver, gold, and jewels, and burnt incense as a part of their worship. I'm sure the seven churches were just packed full of icons as well. Plus I did not say that the event was as emotions based event, what I said is that at events like these many of the decisions made are based on emotions and need real folow-up to ensure a genuine decision was made or to allow the person the opportunity to make a real decision. Plus the only thing ihs gave me to respond to was the numbers issue and if you would read his post that is exactly what he said and wondered how Protestants could get those same numbers.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:52 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Praise to God I outrightly reject the RCC, the Pope, the Vatican, the extrabiblical traditions, the roseary, the magistrate, Mass, and everything else that She has in the cup of her fornication.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    Online,

    If God calls you to stay in your sect of Christianity, then be blessed in it. You say it is all about Truth? VERITAS, right? Truth is not relative. What is the Gospel and how are we saved, etc? These are great questions that our Church has answered long before there was a Protestant.

    "We are saved by Grace through faith working in love" Joint declaration of Lutherans and Catholics.

    What is the Gospel? Well, since we decided that the Gospels are Mathew Mark Luke and John, and since the Gospels are about the Good news, then what is the good news? The Good news is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, so that you don't have to be damned to Hell. By establishing a relationship with Christ through baptism and perservering in that friendship with Christ through an active faith in Him until you die, by God's grace you will be saved.

    I hope you will be saved.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    Believer,

    I was not being patronizing and I apologise if you took it that way. I just felt your analogy of the Air show was silly since it didn't focus on Christ. Also, I was holding you accountable for assuming that this event was just an emotional based, but there actually was a lot of follow up with these kids. I am not being patronizing either when you and some others offer your interpretation, when I do the same and offer my interpretation of scripture but I back it up with historical proofs and Sacred Tradition that came from the Apostles. I would be bugged too if my church did not believe, act or worship like the early Christians.

    Brotheraaron,

    Yes, millions do believe like you do. In fact, your brand of Christianity represents about 300 million if I was being generous. We on the other hand represent 1.7 Billion or 80% of Christianity which would agree much more with my positions.

    It is not about numbers, my friend, it is about Truth. The Authority to "Officially" interpret God's holy word is only with his Bishops who were given this gift of the Holy Spirit and who passed it down to the Bishops we have today.

    I pray that all you baptists and Pentecostals will reject your unApostolic roots and come Home to ROME SWEET HOME, like many of your brothers and sisters already have. Baptists and Pentecostals and Seventh Day adventists are truly the extremists of Protestants, so I'm not surprised by your responses.

    I say to you brotheraaron, "COME OUT OF THE TRADITIONS OF MEN, to the Only Church founded by Christ, the only church to write the scriptures, the only church to define the basic principals of Christian belief and the only church that is still built on the Rock who is Peter with the Authority given to him BY JESUS CHRIST with the "KEYS". Jesus put Peter in Charge, so in effect if you reject Peter you are rejecting Christ.

    If you reject the Bishops who have Christ authority, then you also in some respects reject Jesus Christ."Those who hear you hear me, those you reject you reject me" You reject the authority of His Church, so you reject Jesus.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:53 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

    Msn stated, “People like Online can only go from their own interpretation.”

    Millions of believers appeal to the Scriptures as their only rule of faith, so I am not alone my friend. Millions know that salvation is through Jesus Christ alone (Acts 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:11, John 14:6), know that Jesus demonstrated the scriptures to be the final authority (Matthew 4:4, Mathew 5:17-19, Matthew 22:29, John 10:35), that we are NOT to add to or take away from the Word of God (Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:6, Isaiah 8:20, Revelation 22:18, 19), that we are to test and expose all things contrary to the Word (1 John 4:1, 1Thessalonians 5:21, Ephesians 5:11) that the Holy Spirit is Christ’s true representative (John 14:16-18, John 16:7, 8; Romans 8:9, 1 John 2:27), and know that we are warned to avoid false teachers/teachings (2 Timothy 4:3, 4; 2 Peter 2:1, Galatians 1:8, 9; 2 John 1:7).

    So; how is one saved? What is the gospel? Who is proclaiming it? Pilate once asked, “What is truth”- answer? This is what I have been debating; we cannot make claims and expect others to accept them at face value. This is not about biases, resentment, hate, bigotry but it is about TRUTH. Are the answers to be found in religious systems who peddle extra biblical and contrary dogmas or in the Word of God? I choose the latter.

    Peace

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:29 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Chris, and all...

    Every time you leave posts like that, all of the Christians here try and turn the other cheek to you. I'm sorry my brothers and sister, but I am having a hard time doing that today. The RCC is the W***E of Babylon. The Pope and his minions are the heritics of heritics, with their spiritual fornication and perverted teachings. I pray for Jesus' swift and final judgement on the whole RCC.
    I love you all, but my heart aches when I read this blasphemy. I'm feeling like a raw nerve from this constant rippng on our One and Only authority, and on His followers who worship Him in spirit and truth.
    Praise King Jesus!

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:58 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    chris, there you go on your ego trip again and being patronizing of any Christian who does not subscribe to all the extra-biblical teachings of the Catholic Church. As for me I'll continue to rely on God's Holy Spirit to equip and empower me to both read and study God's Word and show me through godly men and women who also are wholeheartedly surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the control of the Holy Spirit and who are diligent students of God's Word both in knowledge and in living how to take the teachings of His Word and apply it my daily life so that I can be more available to God and can join God in fulfilling His Great Commission.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris, my question to ihs was based on the fact that the article only talked about the numbers and not the results and I wondered what he was referring to when he said the fruits that resulted.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

    Also IHS,

    Online is right on one thing. The Word of God is the best and most reliable way to know God's wishes for your life and to understand his message. The problem comes to who should interpret? Who has authority?

    The problem comes when not all areas of scripture are easy to understand. The easy parts like Jesus being born of a Virgin, Him being our Lord is pretty easy. There are many other parts that are confusing. This is why we need to understand how the earliest Christians understood the scriptures and lived them out. Their witness is undeniably powerful and many of these early Christians had God's authority as Bishop passed down directly by one of the Apostles.

    You see, IHS, people like Online can only go from their own interpretation. We Catholics, Orthodox and many other Protestant Groups like Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists and many more want the historical record too, to see what matches up.

    You see, Ihs, the Catholic Church was present when the scriptures were said and written. It is our book! We wrote it again and again for 1600 years before a Protestant was ever thought of. Their interpretation of scriptures can not be matched with the early Church.

    Who's interpretation do you trust? 50,000 different denominations all claiming to go by the Bible and all of them disagreeing on major points like baptism like sanctification and Grace, or go with the only historic Church founded by Christ who gave His almighty power to bind and loose to the Apostles who gave those powers to the bishops and who wrote the actual bible, put the canon together and defined all the christological doctrines which are in every Christian Church today? Do you prefer an interpretation which actually marries the past with the scriptures or are you interested in a Pastor who will redefine things on his own whim?????


    WELCOME HOME TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IF YOU ANSWERED LIKE I THINK YOU WOULD ANSWER!!!

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    IHS,

    You have my email so email me anytime to discuss God's Church. You are welcome anytime. Peace.

    Believer,
    What fruit? I am surprised at you. You are usually very reasonable and you don't usually make grandiose assumptions like other posters do. You assume their was no follow up. We had 50 kids from our parish go to this event. They went to classes while they were there and they were signed up for more education when they came back as a follow up to keep their faith in Christ strong.

    The Catholic News Agency reported that the crowd had 30.000 youths who were not Catholic but were Christian who have decided to become Catholic. They saw the fruit.
    These non-Catholic youth will be going through RCIA classes immediately to understand the faith. RCIA classes take a year and 91% of all RCIA candidates do become Catholic and those who go through the process rarely if ever leave the Church.

    There was a lot of follow up, lots of Bible Study classes and Catechesis. One youth told me they did a scripture Study for 3 days on John in a park where there were 25,000 young individuals. Over 100,000 youth signed a chastity pledge for Christ too. No fruit?

    You and I and others on this board use scripture to defend our positions. I use scripture and tradition and historical record to back up my points. However, faith is more than logic or reason it is a compelling force from the Holy Spirit that leads. Many of these converts became interested in the Catholic Church initially because of the beauty of our Churches for God, the Holiness you feel in a Catholic Church, the lives of the Saints which give the strongest testimony to living for Christ. These are the things that get their interest first and then reason and faith takes over and they become Catholic.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:21 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    ihs,

    The clearest and most reliable record of the early church can be found in the Word of God and what you deem as a mere bias does not shed any light on the real issues. How is one saved? What is the gospel? Who is proclaiming it?

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:19 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    ihs, this is all about numbers then. Well if that's the case you Protestants need to hold an Air Show in Europe. When I was stationed at Aviano Air Base in Italy we had an Air Show every summer. We would get over 200,000 on the base and over 300,000 off the base to watch it. The problem is it's not about numbers it's about seeing lost people come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. And events like this tend to birth many emotional professions of faith but without the proper follow-up no genuine profession of faith takes place in the lives of many of those people.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:23 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    ihs, and what fruit was that?

  • IHS »
    Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    Tamna,

    Welcome to the board. I am an evangelical seminarian. Some of the posts against Catholics have been ridiculous. I totally agree with you!

    The more they attack them, the more I want to know more about Catholicism and the early Church. Look at this World Youth Day where 500 Million people watched this event that was all about Jesus Christ dying for their sins. It was amazing! Can we Protestants ever organize to produce anything like that? I think not. Look at the fruit that was produced! Can our fellow Protestant brothers and sisters not see it or is their bias too much?

    Be blessed on this board.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    In response to my last post our friend "believer" responsded:

    "tamna, why would I not be surprised to find out you are either a Catholic or very sympathetic to the Catholic point of view?"

    *Sigh* Thank you, "believer," for illustrating my point so succinctly.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:10 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 1

    Take your meds and go read some of your Hal Lindsey and Left behind books. You know the world might end tomorrow, right. I bet you love the Oliver Stone conspiracy books too.
    Relax.

    Sorry, I do not subscribe to the fictitious futurist position as do you. I see that your focus has been on everything other than responding to the points that had been made; I guess it is difficult to defend so many contradictions.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:45 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    chris, plus you still haven't answered my post to you with regards to fundamentalists, I am really wanting to hear your response, thanks believer.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:43 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    chris, if a Catholic wants to become either a priest or a nun they must take a vow of celibacy, that's called a requirement because if they don't unless he leaves the Catholic Church and joins say the Anglican Church and becomes an Anglican priest and gets married and then he comes back to the Catholic Church he can not become a priest. For a woman it's a done deal she cannot get married and become a nun. There is no choice in the matter other than not to become a priest or nun.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:40 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 0

    The problems is that the RCC ultimately doesn't teach from the Bible, they teach from the traditions of little men who think they have been give authority. Their interpretation of God's word is a perversion. The position of Pope is non Biblical, and therefore heresey based on the claims of that position. This conversation is getting redundant. I will pray for you. And I'm sure your thoughts will be to pray for me. I submit to the authority of Jesus Christ. I am indwelled by the Holy Spirit. I have absolute assurance that come Judgement day I will be going to Heaven. I pray for the humility and faith to live each day knowing this all to be true.
    May God Bless you.
    Get Out From Her.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 7

    Brotheraaron,

    The fact that you reject the Papacy, the Bishops, the Priests, the Deacons, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, baptism, confirmation, holy orders, reconciliation, which are all in the Bible leads me to surmise that the real problem is authority.

    Authority is what you reject in its simplist form. You reject the authority and office of the Apostle. "Are all Apostles?", St. Paul asked. You reject the Bishops that were given the Apostles' authority. We Catholics have continued Apostolic succession which is right out of scripture. You see it, but make excuses how it doesn't exist anymore. I didn't see anywhere in scripture where this authority ends? It continues through the Apostles to the Bishops.

    I know the Catholic Church is more biblical because for 2000 years we have kept these offices and we have preserved the hiearchy as given to us through the Holy Spirit. We have preserved the teachings of the Apostles and your faith tradition has not kept any traditions that even St. Paul commanded you to keep. You simply reject his role as Apostle.

    The Papacy is the most logical form of Governing people. Much like a President of the US who has real authority given to him by the people our Pope has his authority from GOD. Baptists have an authority, but no one is required to follow and most people don't really care about what he says. This is not an effective role for you, but more of a superficial attempt to be more like us. After 400 years you see the benefit to having one person at the top to serve God's people. We have a Pope and now you have a President. The office of President is completely unbibilical, but I'm sure you know that.

    Because of your rejection of so many Scripture, I am never surprised when a new cult arrives that claims to be Christian and is not. The Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons and Unitarians all came out from congregational/baptists groups.

    In the end, will you go with your own interpretation where every Pastor becomes his own little Pope or will you submit to the authority that God gave through His Apostles to His Bishops? I'll stick with the hiearchy of God, rather than the unbiblical traditions of men.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 8

    Brotheraaron,

    So, you give some of us the benefit of the doubt but then you say the hiearchy, Traditions and the Papacy are apostate. Our Traditions come from Christ through the Apostles like celibacy like the Mass which were all instituted by Christ himself. Our hiearchy; Bishop, Priest and Deacon are the hiearchy of the Bible that you reject. Our Holy Father the Pope is scriptural calling Simon the Rock on which the Church is built, giving only him the Keys(Is 22, Matt 16:18) and being asked by Christ to feed His sheep and tend his sheep, the fact Peter is obviously the head of the Apostles is also scriptural and historical.

    My friend in Christ, it is because you do not have these things that non-Catholic Christians are wounded and have not enjoyed the fullness of Christ revelation. Any organization who denies these Truths are and cannot see them are like the message of the sower. The Baptists, Pentecostals and the rest simply do not have the type of soil to grow into the fullness and back into communion with Holy Mother Church. This is why you divide, this is why your division makes Christianity weak and makes spreading the Gospel that much more difficult because it looks like Christ never came because of our division.

    It sounds to me that you and believer are Christians, but I do not believe all in your faith traditions are Christian. I would not go so far to call your many denomination apostate, because that would imply you know better and I believe that it is severe ignorance caused by the sin of men that has caused your sepparation from communion with Christ Church.

    We Catholics see most Protestants like Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Reformed and Presbyterians to have much more Truth in them than Baptists or Pentecostals or non-denominationals. The latter groups have watered down God's Gospel to such a point that there is not liturgy, there is no true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and there is no apostolicity or catholicity.

    Believer,
    Could you show me in the bible where it says I have to show you celibacy is a requirement? Celibacy like Christ said,"A Gift for the sake of the Kingdom". It is voluntary and again it is not a doctrine of the Church. It is a practice.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:52 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Amen to that Believer!
    It is great to hear from someone who was a Catholic at one point. There are many like you in our congregation. In fact, our Pastor grew up Catholic. We had a speaker on Church planting in our Church last night. He delivered a very informative lesson on the Biblical Basis and Plan for Church Planting based on the model left for us in Acts. He too had grown up Catholic. All of these fine folks who have "come out of her" have the same thing to say, basically that: The Christian Church is the only true body of Christ and therefore is the only Church capable of teaching these things to the fellowship of the saints.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:32 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    broaaron, I totally agree with you there is no doubt there are true believers in the Catholic Church and in fact I personally know some. But as far as their traditions and teachings, there are some if not many that are not biblically based. Plus, the whole time I grew up in the Catholic Church I never once heard God's plan of salvation taught from within the Church and many of the born-again Catholics who I know say the same thing.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:15 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Please let me clarify again: I am not saying that I believe the RCC to be of God, or that it even teaches what Christ taught in terms of Salvation, Sanctification, Justification, Baptism, Eschatology, Saints, etc... I am saying though, and by this is what I meant when I said "the benefit of the doubt", is that there probably are Catholics who are my brothers and sisters in Christ. But, and again, it is my firm stance that the RCC, that is, the Papacy, the Catchism, the hierarchy, the Vatican, etc.. are apostate, and as a whole, will have to answer to Jesus Christ on judgement day. I believe that chapter 17 of the book of Revelation accurately prophesies this organization.
    Now hang on... before you get riled up... again, I don't think that all Catholics are unsaved. It is not my place to judge your salvation. I look forward to God's righteous judgement of all false religions on earth.

    God Bless you all today.

    Brother Aaron

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:29 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Article: "100,000 Catholics Gather for Youth Event in Sydney."

    People gather all over the world for various reasons and/or events. We must be careful what we gather around in these last days. Take this hymn from The St. Gregory Hymnal and Catholic Choir Book for example:

    Ave Maria! thou portal of
    Heaven, Harbor of refuge, to
    thee do we flee: Lost in the
    darkness, by stormy winds driven,
    Shine on our pathway, fair Star of the Sea!
    (Ave Maria! O Maiden, O Mother, Star of the Sea)

    Should we gather around any song, belief, or even an organization that directs us to flee to Mary? Consider that question while meditating on Psalm 143:9: "Deliver me, O Lord, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me."

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