In a move to let non-resident gay couples marry in the state, the Mass. Senate voted on Tuesday to repeal a 1913 law that prohibited couples from obtaining marriage licenses if they couldn't legally marry in their home states.
The Mass. House of Representatives is expected to vote on the repeal this week.
Gov. Deval Patrick, whose 18-year-old daughter announced last month that she is a lesbian, has said he will back the repeal effort.
Former Gov. Mitt Romney had enforced the law back when the state became the first in the nation to legalize same-sex "marriage."
Critics of the law say it carries racist edge because they say it was once used to bar out-of-state interracial couples from marrying in Massachusetts, which has recognized interracial marriage since 1843.
But traditional marriage supporters say the anti-race portrayal of the law is a misrepresentation by same-sex "marriage" advocates.
Massachusetts Family Institute points to the 2006 State Supreme Court ruling that upheld the law as constitutional and rejected claims that the law was racially based.
"The Massachusetts Senate has no right to infringe on the internal issues of how other states define marriage," said Kris Mineau, president of the MFI, according to the Associated Press.
Mineau said in a statement that the "express purpose of the 1913 law was to create uniform marriage standards and respect states right, but the state senate has now reneged on that principal."
The MFI said it expects entangling legal issues to arise if the repeal goes through. Same-sex couples would eventually sue their home states for recognition while those seeking a divorce from their Massachusetts marriages would face a legal limbo, argues the group.
Mineau said that if the House approves the repeal, it would reaffirm the need for a federal marriage amendment.
RSS
I posted this elsewhere, but it fits here too:
I knew a woman who loved a man who was married. She stopped the relationship before it got further out of hand.
I know a woman who thought herself lesbian. She no longer believes this and is happily married - she is my wife.
Just because we think something is, does not make it so. Just because something seems like it will never change does not mean it will stay the same. Just because someone loves does not mean it should be pursued.
i dont want to interfere with one of the better dialogues.......................i just wanted to make a comment about the article for these posts.
the passage of this legislation indicates that after several odd years of witness, the legislature comfirms the the ruling of the mass supreme court, that there was " no credible evidence why homosexuals should not be allowed to marry."
the existence of gay marriage is no threat to heterosexual marriage, and may possibly be even be a support for it.
my understanding is that the heterosexual marriage divorce numbers in mass have diminished since allowing gay marriage.
and there is no evidence that gay marriage divorce numbers are trending in any way toward the percentages of heterosexal marriage divorces.
"If God loves us so much, why does he let a being whose sole purpose is to tempt us, ultimately damning us to hell, exist?"
The same reason He sent His Son to die for you so you don't have to go to hell. It's your choice.
"But James, if God is omnipotent, why doesn't he just confine the devil to hell and be done with it?"
OK...here's one to wrap your brain around. On the basis that time is a created thing then "the foundation of the world" and "the end of time" are the same instant outside of created time. Therefore, He did and has....
Still, we don't know why God gave us free will. However, if God's M.O. was to not provide choice then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Everyone would simply be without sin like Adam was created and all of you people who don't believe in God simply would. Now wouldn't that make things simple!
mike
(see post before this one first)The under lying question is why does he give us free will. Some have answered this already, but I will try to relate it to your life for some prospective. you will need to make the Biblical jump for yourself. Who would make the best teacher in this situation....A man wanting a teaching job has applied several places. The only place to want to hire him was the one he really did not want, for it was in the poorest of neighborhoods( and he knew what that meant), or the man who knew what it would be like for those kids not to have a good education and made it his choice to get hired there for he wanted to make a difference? Two students got straight A's all the time, but one student was gifted and could do all his homework without help and could basically teach himself. The other student struggled he asked his teacher for advice all the time, needed things explained two or three times and it took him two hours every night just to finish his homework.Which student brings the teacher the most glory and pride? Which student is more endearing to the teacher the same kind of student as the first student in the first descritption or the student who was much like the second student but only got C's, but never gave up. He kept persevering because his teacher told him "son in this life it is not all about the grades you get, but the kind of man you are inside".
Mike
The devil does uses our desires and feelings to tempt us as I said, but what makes you truly think that if the Devil no longer existed that there would not be sin in this world. Let me try to explain. Thoughts comes from what is in the heart, but Christ said if you think of wanting to kill someone , you have already committed murder. The devil does not always need to tempt us in order for us to sin, because we are born with sinfulness. The devil is kind of like a friend who knows you want a certain toy and keeps saying just take it, just take it. But we know sometimes we do not need that friend to push us to take it, we just will. God knew this that is why he sent His son down to die to save the souls of those who believe in him, and is why he promises us a new heavenly body one without sin for our souls to dwell in. God wants us to truly become like Christ, but we are able to hide our sins well in our heart, and it will only be revealed that you have not gotten rid of your sin but burried it, if the devill was allowed to remain to uncover those desires, so that you can know I have not yet defeated this one. I for one am glad he lets the devil expose what I still need to work on. The devil does not damn us to hell it is our choice in wether to believe in Christ that will damn us. I feel children are protected until they know what sin is and know who Christ is, they then too can make the choice. Remember Christ and God the father both have given kids great respect in discerning Truth. When they accept Christ they have the same power as an adult to call upon the name of God to help them in time of temptation.(next post)
Mark - But James, if God is omnipotent, why doesn't he just confine the devil to hell and be done with it? To me, that's kind of like allowing your child to have a party, supllying drugs and alcohol, then saying "If you use any of what I have given, I will disown you." Why even let Satan continue to exist? If God loves us so much, why does he let a being whose sole purpose is to tempt us, ultimately damning us to hell, exist?
To answer that question you have to break down the meaning of love. Man was created so that God could share his love. When Adam and Eve where kicked out of the Garden of Eden it was not just because they ate from the tree of knowledge. It was also because they turned their back on God. God is very powerful and all knowing and he knew they ate from the tree but he didn't just kick them out but he gave them a chance. Rather then having fear towards God as a child should towards their parents they lied and pointed fingers. God will always love man but what he wished for is for man to show that same love in return. Love can not be forced. This is why man was given free will by God. God will do anything to bring himself and man together and show infinite patience in the process. It took thousands of years for Christ to come and it has been over 2000 years since. Ultimately these two will be joined but there is the factor of Satan. True if he were eliminated that would eliminate evil in the world. The problem is if you eliminate him you have to eliminate all that goes with him which is sin. All of us have sin and even though we are saved through christ we still commit sin from time to time so we would all be damed to hell. There is a parable that Jesus said about weeds growing in the field and that it is best to wait for the harvest because they can then be separated. If you try to pull the weeds while the harvest is growing you could lose some of the harvest. God has so much love for man that he is willing to save one grain one sheep and take all the time in the world to do it. God's wisdom is far superior than ours and he works on his own watch. So with all the temptation that exists it is a true testament of our love to God to resist them and to help others resist as well.
" If God loves us so much, why does he let a being whose sole purpose is to tempt us, ultimately damning us to hell, exist?"
The devil exists because he was an angel who chose to disobey. He wants to be God. In the process, he is trying to derail God's plan.
I see the question being, "Why did an absolutely good God make creatures with free choice when He knew they would choose evil?"
A. God did it so He would be able to display His Grace. It was not necessary for Him to create. God had five options with regard to creation:
1. He could have chosen not to create any world at all. There is no morality involved in this option. God is relational. He wants to be in relationship with people who love Him.
2. He could have chosen to make a world without free creatures in it. Again, no morality is involved in this option. Also, with no people in it, God is not able to be in relationship with people who love Him.
3. He could have created a world of creatures who could never sin. In this option, the supposedly free creatures would be mere robots. There is no morality involved in this. With no choice, people would not have been able to choose God, nor choose good. It would have been morally better not to create.
4. He could have created a world of creatures who must sin. This is the worst possible option. People would have had no option but to sin. This is in fact, immorality. Also, the people would have had no choice but to have been unable to love God.
5. He could have, AND DID, create a world of free creatures where they COULD sin, but were not required to. This is the best possible option of how to create the world in order to reveal God’s character. Because of the existence of sin, God can reveal His grace. As Paul wrote in Romans 11:32, “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.â€Â
Unfortunately, or fortunately, our choices have consequences, in our lives and the lives of others.
God uses our choices, and those of the devil and demons, in His plan. It is because of choices that I am who I am. This includes choices to obey and disobey God. God knew what it would take to have me choose Him over any other God, what it would take to have me become the person He wants me to become. Exactly the combination of physical, emotional, spiritual, experiences I have suffered and lived through. Without those, I would not be who I am, nor would I have chosen Christ - for real. I might have chosen to go to a country club and called it church, but I would not have chosen to give my life to GOD. Without being put in moments of crisis, I would not be the person I am. I would be lost, and been unable to be holy.
Surpassing one's limitations, faults, body to become who God wants us to be is part of the Christian life. The difference between doing this in the Christian perspective and any other is that the Holy Spirit enables us to do it and is there to help us when things are difficult.
mike2685, the difference is that God doesn't provide the temptation He allows us to be tempted and only to a certain point in that He always provides a means of escape. But the choice to use that escape rests with you and me. But if God took away our ability to be tempted or make choices we would be no more than human robots. His desire was to create us so that we would totally and freely love and worship Him. For our love and worship to be true and genuine it required God to create us with the ability to choose. The main choice being self or God and as you well know because of our sinful nature we tend to choose self.
But James, if God is omnipotent, why doesn't he just confine the devil to hell and be done with it? To me, that's kind of like allowing your child to have a party, supllying drugs and alcohol, then saying "If you use any of what I have given, I will disown you." Why even let Satan continue to exist? If God loves us so much, why does he let a being whose sole purpose is to tempt us, ultimately damning us to hell, exist?
Mike
" you believe otherwise, answer me this: If we believe as Christians God is omnipotent, why does he continue to allow Satan to have power over children?"
I feel you have a misconception of the power the devil has. The sin is a battle of the flesh, for we desire and feel needs. The devil uses those desires and feelings in order to tempt us to sin, which we have the choice to participate in. An unbeleiever still has a choice to sin or not in a given circumstance, but only the Beleiever has the power from the spirit to truly call on God to allow him to win each and every time. The devil has no power over anyone, but the power we allow him to have by giving into temptation. He can tempt us but he can not make us it is what is in our hearts that makes us. As my last post to you said the devil uses our feelings and waht is in our heart for sin.
My bad, James R. Lots of times there are words taken out of context (especially on-line!). I see that Mike had referenced the devil. To my thinking, it's hard enough for modern people to believe in a God, much less a devil!
hlerwin
" It is impossible for me to see how this love could be sin, for sin comes from the devil, yet love comes from God."
these words were from mike2685
I think my answer the way it was written directly reflected his opinion. He is a beleiver with a different view point so referencing things he is aware of I think would be beneficial to him.
hlerwin
Is it King College, a Presbyterian affliated school, in Bristol, Tn?
Is it Milligan College in Milligan College, Tn which is just below Johnson City?
I think this man's Bible college was in extreme East Tennessee - maybe Kingsport or Bristol or that city just below those two (name won't come to me).
hlerwin-just out of curiosity...which Bible College?
I have no idea why someone gave thumbs down to hlerwin's post on the trinity...the post does represent the beliefs of many on the trinity.
When man believes he is the highest lifeform in the universe then he limits his ability to scientifically explore his existance as he is all the answers to his questions.
Assuming we were created in the image of God then we can assume our make up is somehow a reflection of the state God exists in. We have a mind, a body and a soul (as defined by Websters). In the case of the trinity...God is the mind, Jesus is the body and the Holy Spirit is the soul. We all know how people say things like "I know I don't need to eat this by I (my body) really wants it" or "how I think and feel aren't the same thing". They actually are different and function differently. Yet they all make up me. Would I be me without all three? We are actually 3 facets in 1. "God in three persons" yet we have little understanding beyond our existance. We don't even understand our existance!
As for faith and rational...everyone fills in what they don't understand with faith. The athiest that sits in a chair has faith it will hold them up when they plop into it. Usually it does. Sometimes it doesn't and somehow we are shocked because our 'faith' in the chair turned out not to be true. Yet, each time it takes faith to just plop down in one.
It takes far more faith to believe in nothing that to believe in God.
Here's a little tip for anyone, like James Reynolds, who is trying to give a sensible answer to an earnest question from a person, like Mike, posting on this site: Don't blame things on the devil. James, you really "hope that helps" Mike? Gee.....
mike,
you say how can this be sin if it feels so right. I would say the same way that The devil uses the love between two heterosexual people who committ sin by having sex outside of marriage. How could it be so wrong if they love each other, God wouldn't cause them to love someone and then say ooh wait you can not have sex would He? We both know the answer to that one. How about the girl who loves the man who beats on her. Why would God make her love him. The answer is qiute simple. In a earlier post I pointed out love in the bible is an action not a feeling, and the devil does use feeling in order to make us sin. you could say God created sadness so that we may have compassion toward others, but the Devil uses it to cause people to go into depression and loose hope. You could say God made happiness and joy to help us delight in Him, but then the devil uses it for some to feel happy when they bully people, you could say God created pridefulness so that we would boast of Him, but he warns us the devil will let us use in sin for many will have pride in themselves. Mike I hope this helps because the Devil uses our feeling in order to get us to sin. Remeber love is an action, and not so much the feelings we associate with it.
Daniel, if you are here, I spoke last night with a professor who retired after teaching 25+ years at a Bible college. He affirmed that the three big, monotheistic cultures place the greatest emphasis on sin. He made an interested point, though. He said that Muslims consider Jews, like Muslims, to be monotheistic, but some say that Christians are polytheistic, witha Father, Son and Holy Ghost. But, I said, all three of those are the same, the Trinity. The professor said that a Muslim scholar had demanded him to explain the Trinity. Even after many words and drawings, the Muslim said this made no sense. I guess that's why Unitarians left Calvinism. I know that some Bible scholars say they clearly see the concept of the Trinity in scripture, while others don't. My Bible college teacher friend thinks the concept is there - but admits it's hard to defend it in any rational way. (That's all right with me, since I don't depend on rationality for faith anyway. An objective reader on this bulletin board could deduce the fact that many Christians feel no need to be rational. Nor do I, as far as faith is concerned.
James 4:4 "Unfaithful people! Don't you know that to be the world's friend means to be God's enemy? If you want to be the world's friend, you make yourself God's enemy."
Now here is the site i came across doing research not to long back. Here is the link that some have been asking on the movie being made on the lie of David's and Johnathan's homosexual relationship. You see there are 'church's' that believe such blasphemy that its hard to comprehend, but its all to justify themselves. Read the whole page but start where the link takes you. Its a satanic church. They preach a false Gospel and lead many to damnation. Its my 'Job' if you will my Gift of the Spirit and my Ministry given unto me by God to expose all those who lead others astray, to stand against them, and yes Debate them. And Jesus did 'whoop' on them in yahoo and many other sites!
http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Resources&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=2122#Pt3
this is the metropolitan 'church'
1Corinthians 3:16 Surely you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you!
1Co 3:17 God will destroy anyone who destroys God's temple. For God's temple is holy, and you yourselves are his temple.
1Co 3:18 You should not fool yourself. If any of you think that you are wise by this world's standards, you should become a fool, in order to be really wise.
1Co 3:19 For what this world considers to be wisdom is nonsense in God's sight. As the scripture says, "God traps the wise in their cleverness";
1Co 3:20 and another scripture says, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are worthless."
"Whether I was born this way or not, I know my sexual orientation was developed before my conscience was, and I don't think God would let a child become afflicted by the devil before that point. __If you believe otherwise, answer me this: If we believe as Christians God is omnipotent, why does he continue to allow Satan to have power over children?"
Now THAT is a huge topic. But I will try to answer briefly (for me). I believe God is omnipotent. I believe God loves us. However, there are many reasons why things that we consider evil occur.
There are two questions involved here.
Q1) Why did an absolutely good God make creatures with free choice when He knew they would choose evil? He could have, AND DID, create a world of free creatures where they COULD sin, but were not required to. This is the best possible option of how to create the world in order to reveal God's character. Because of the existence of sin, God can reveal His grace. As Paul wrote in Romans 11:32, "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/20/why-did-an-absolutely-good-god-make-creatures-with-free-choice-when-he-knew-they-would-choose-evil/
and Q2) Can suffering be justified? I think we will find when its all said and done that no suffering will be unjustified. But that does not help us now. There are a ton of reasons why someone might be given a predisposition for certain behavior, or given a physical malformity. We can not know them all. I can tell you the things I have suffered have helped make me who I am. This in turns help me be of use in positive ways for God. Because of my past, I can speak with you about your present.
Our experiences make us uniquely qualified to deal with certain situations. If I had not had the experiences I have had, I would not be able to work with drug addicts, or prostitutes. I would not have been able to speak with homosexuals and tell them that God really DID say what He said about those things. He really DOES provide a way to be what He said we need to be, to act, feel, think, in holy ways. God's plan includes using what the devil does and what individual humans do so that the whole world will come to have a choice in choosing Him or not.
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/20/can-suffering-be-justified/
"but I keep coming back and knowing that God loves me and has a plan for me."
I agree with you. God DOES have a plan. God WILL use you. But will He use you to help others come to Him or how...? And in what condition, one of holiness and righteousness, or what...?
" I do not know how to put this in a way that will make sense or not be judged, but: I do believe in the Bible and that is teaches us how to walk in the footsteps of Christ, but I still believe it was written by men, and the men who wrote it "experienced" homosexuality in terms of Pagan orgies and self lusting. "
I believe people (as a whole) do not change through time (although individuals do). There was plenty of heterosexual and homosexual sex in those days, much like in these days. I think God tells us what is right and wrong in His word. Sometimes He tells us part of the reason, sometimes not. Often we want to assign motive to God. But the best motives we can assign are those which God Himself puts in scripture. He loves us. He created us. He wants us to be with Him.
"To try and close: I know what the Bible says, but there simply is no way I can reconcile that that is the Truth with my lifestyle, which I don't believe is from the devil. "
This is where I say you are trying to reconcile the Word of God to your experience, rather than your experience to thee Word of God. The first says I have my experience, and it is valid as I understand it, therefore the word of God is not right and I must interpret the word of God in such a way as to agree with and explain my experience. Thee latter says I have the Bible and it is valid, therefore I have to interpret my experience in light of what the Bible says to explain my experience. These are slightly, but distinctly, different things. I submit we should always understand our experiences in light of what the Bible says. Sometimes we have to expand an interpretation of the Bible, but we do not change what the Bible says.
Mike2685,
"thank you again for your openness and willingness to have a dialogue."
Talking is one of my loves. :) You're welcome.
" To answer your question, no, I do not and cannot believe that being gay is a sin. I was thinking for a long time about this the other day. I love my partner. I have been "in lust" before and know the difference."
The emotion of lust has to do with sex. The emotion of love, with the person's essence. The emoton of like has a lot to do with the emotion of love, I think. I do not think all of the emotions (like, love, lust) are always present in any relationship. But the action of love should always be present. There is a distinct difference between them all.
" While I would agree certain sexual "practices" may not be of God, because they could be harmful to you, my partner and I DO NOT practice them."
This is good. But I'm not sure I would say the only reason God said to not do them is for health reasons.
" I love his entire being, his spirit, his acceptance of others, yet I do not put him above God."
As is appropriate. Nothing and no one should take the place of God.
"It is impossible for me to see how this love could be sin, for sin comes from the devil, yet love comes from God. "
I can understand how it might be difficult to understand. And at the same time, given what I understand of God and the devil, I do not believe it IS from God. Many times, God makes something good, and the devil twists it.
Please do not take offense with the following example of a twisted love; it is not meant to indicate anything about you or your partner. While most pedophiles are into it for sex, power, acceptance, or to feel good, some are into it for love. They have a feeling or want to feel a feeling that God created as good. The devil has some how twisted the meaning and object of the emotion and it is directed towards children. This has a semblance of the love God created, but it is not what God created.
"I have struggled, to the point of tears, to the point of drinking myself sick, to the point of sleeping around and saying "$*#@ GOD!" because of my frustration,"
I have been this way. I remember when I first married and things were so difficult and I was a new Christian and newly married, I wanted to divorce. A pastor told me to read the Bible do what God said. I did. Me and God argued about it for a while, about whether He meant what it says concerning divorce. I had to come to a decision about whether the Bible is the word of God or a book written by men. I decided it was the word of God. I'm still married after 13 years. And I'm glad for it.
"movie depicting a Biblical love story between David and Jonathan "
looks like a hoax
mike2685, please explain what you mean when you say Satan has power over God's children and did you get a chance to see my post to you on the exodus site, thanks and hope you are enjoying you art fair, believer
wbmoore, thank you again for your openness and willingness to have a dialogue. To answer your question, no, I do not and cannot believe that being gay is a sin. I was thinking for a long time about this the other day. I love my partner. I have been "in lust" before and know the difference. While I would agree certain sexual "practices" may not be of God, because they could be harmful to you, my partner and I DO NOT practice them. I love his entire being, his spirit, his acceptance of others, yet I do not put him above God. It is impossible for me to see how this love could be sin, for sin comes from the devil, yet love comes from God. I have struggled, to the point of tears, to the point of drinking myself sick, to the point of sleeping around and saying "$*#@ GOD!" because of my frustration, but I keep coming back and knowing that God loves me and has a plan for me. I do not know how to put this in a way that will make sense or not be judged, but: I do believe in the Bible and that is teaches us how to walk in the footsteps of Christ, but I still believe it was written by men, and the men who wrote it "experienced" homosexuality in terms of Pagan orgies and self lusting. Some of that still goes on today, but gays are also coupling up in committed relationships. Yes, our parts "don't fit" but that doesn't determine love. My partner and I do want to adopt a child, and if nothing else, 2 loving stable, supportive parents are better than one.
To try and close: I know what the Bible says, but there simply is no way I can reconcile that that is the Truth with my lifestyle, which I don't believe is from the devil. Whether I was born this way or not, I know my sexual orientation was developed before my conscience was, and I don't think God would let a child become afflicted by the devil before that point.
If you believe otherwise, answer me this: If we believe as Christians God is omnipotent, why does he continue to allow Satan to have power over children?
Thanks for that answer, Daniel. In Muslim countries, I see that the scriptural law and civil law is virtually the same. Israel must have civil law that is quite a departure from Mosaic law. Would you say, though, that it is the big three monotheist "cultures" in which sin is so important? Do you know about Hindu or Buddhist or Shinto countries (or culture). I know they have concepts about causing harm to others. Are their proscriptions against commiting these acts as highly valued as the "high value" (for lack of a better way to put it) we give to sin in our culture. We are on our way out the door to a wedding - so I may not be choosing just the right words. I think you know what I mean. Later....
"I wonder how many other cultures have elevated "sin" to as prominent as position as our Christian culture has. "
sin-"a) an offense against religious or moral law. b) an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible."
The USA is nothing compared to may other countries. The problem with seeing this is other countries (muslim) use their spiritual law as the law. In our country, we base our laws on Biblical concepts manytimes but we do not use Mosaic law as our law book.
In many countries, sin and illegal are the same. So, many countries have elevated sin to the point where people get their fingers and hands cut off in public if they are caught steeling (sometimes with no trial).
The Bible talks about how in the last days what Jesus stands for will be quite offensive and there will be a spirit throughout the world of people who hate the idea that that the Bible calls what they are doing 'sin'. This spirit of anti-Christ wants the word 'sin' to be a dirty word and a stupid concept to believe in. Why? Because the basis of Jesus the Christ is that He died for our sin. Remove the concept of sin and you keep people from seeing their need for a savior from it.
Some of you folks are going to have to get over thinking that the only "true" reading of the scriptures comes out of the Baptist publishing houses in Nashville, Tennessee, or from the Moody Bible Institute or some Dutch Reform part of Michigan. I have never thought of Jonathan and David's relationship as anything but close, close friends. If it is incorrect that their affection was homosexual, maybe it's good for Ang Lee to bring out that other point of view. Let it be refuted in the ensuing discussion. Following "Brokeback Mountain," many testimonies of homosexual cowboy relationships certainly came out. (No pun intended....)
Mike2685,
The one thing I do not see in what I read from you is agreement with God that homosexuality is a sin, and repentance. If I am wrong, please correct me.
I see people who struggle against the truth of God and I see them suffer in one way or another. I would love to help them avoid the struggle. I would love to help them avoid stopping the struggle in the wrong way (stopping trying to stop).
I see people who want God to agree with them. I see people who want to redefine what God has said. I see people who want it to be easy to agree with God. I see people who do not want to avoid particular sins. I see people who agree with God that something is a sin, but keep doing the sin without keeping trying to change.
Seeing these people, loving these people, saddens me. I know what they are missing out on. I know the joy, the warmth, the peace that comes from agreeing with God. I also know the eternal significance of agreeing with God.
People who don't agree with God about whether something is a sin will have to answer to God. People who don't want to stop doing something they agree is a sin will have to answer to God. People who don't keep trying to stop sinning will have to answer to God.
I see people who agree something is a sin, and try to stop/change, and then falling back into it again and then repeatedly having to repent because they keep going back into the sin. This is also sad. I'd love to help them avoid it. But its their path, not mine. But the difference between the previous examples and this example is that the latter reminds me of what Jesus said, in Lk 17:4 "If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him." I have to think that if we keep failing and keep trying, we will be forgiven. this is what gives me hope for the two women I wrote of earlier. But what if we fail to try to repent? What if we try but fail and then stop trying?
I wonder how many other cultures have elevated "sin" to as prominent as position as our Christian culture has. Does anyone know? I don't think I have ever realized before just how preoccupied with sin some people are. (I know I am a sinner, and I guess many of you think I should dwell on it as you do, but I do not. Don't pile on, please. I'm just trying to be honest.) I didn't get any takers on this question last time, but I'm still intrigued.
James Reynolds,
"I think what wbmoore is trying to say is he loves you, for he too is a sinner and knows what it is like to carry a burden. He struggles daily with temptation, "
I do love Mike, whom I've gtotten glimpses of through his posts. I have a recurring sin in my life that is not mentioned directly in the Bible, but I know none the less for me is a sin.
"but does not use the temptation as an excuse when he does something wrong but to admit it as sin and live by the Truth of God. It would be easy for him to question and say does everbody else think it is a sin if not maybe it is ok, but he doesn't he listens and trust what is in the Bible is absolute truth. "
There are a ton of people I could ask who would tell me my sin is not sin. But it is.
"He is saddened by people justifying themselves instead of admitting they are sinning. If I am wrong wbmoore please let me know,but I read his post and he does have compassion for your struggle for it sounds like you are confused to what God truly has to say about your lifestyle(one way or another) and are searching yourself if would be at the time you stop searching at all and justify yourself by wolrdly standards he gets upset. Sometimes no man can reason give a worldly reason and that is suitable for all, so we accept what He said without justification "
wow, James. I read this and cried again. You said it so well. The struggle is hard. The struggle against God and His Word. I've seen many walk away from the struggle, rather than surrender to God. THAT scares me for them. I hate, because of my compassion, having to watch epople struggle. But I abhore watching them walk away from God.
Instead of struggling with God, as Jacob did, they need to embrace and surrender and obey, as Christ did.
I know its hard. I live that life. I watch others live that life. I'm just beginning to understand someting about faith, prayer, surrender. Love God. Trust God. Obey God.
"I feel like many Christians lose sight of the fact that we're all on the same playing field, and it is so hurtful to me when Christians tell me I can't be a Christian, or I must not know God, or I am some wicked being. That's simply not true, and what hurts the most if the presumptions made by so many on this discussion board. I hope you are not one of them."
I hope that is not what I am saying too. *rueful smile* I am sorry if I have made you or anyone else feel that way. That is not my intent. My intent is to help people come to Christ and grow in the love, and knowledge of, and obedience to Christ. I can only look at actions and words, not the heart. I can not tell you that you are not saved - only Christ makes that determination. But Christians have a duty to remind people of sin and what the Word says about living a lifestyle of sin not being of Christ. Sometimes that comes accross harshly. I dont know how to not come across harshly when reminding people who do not want to accept what God has said that He has indeed said certain things. I'm working on it. All I can say is that I am a work in progress.
"God does work through me, it is possible to be gay, to love God, and for God to work through you. "
I agree, to a degree. I don't doubt God works through you. I dont doubt you are homosexual. I dont even doubt you love God.
But I keep coming back to the scripture of Jesus healing the blind man who was born blind so God's work could be shown through him.
God heals us, but we need some degree of faith, trust, confidence, in Him. I'm still learning the role of faith in prayer and life and healing and such.
Perhaps because this comes so close to my own home that this saddened and simultaneously give hope to me. I have two examples of what I am trying to talk about. I'm not sure I can say what I need to without them.
I know someone who I do not doubt loves God. This person accepted Christ 17 years ago. This person has done things strictly because God's word says so. Also has done things because it was felt this was that God wanted. Also has done things because God spoke in her heart. But this person is an addict. She keeps falling back into addictive behavior. She used to believe she was a lesbian. She had no sexual desire for men, only for women. Is this person afflicted by the devil? I believe so. Was this person born this way? I think so. Did environment contirubute to this problem? Undoubtedly. Is this person saved? I believe so. Is this person growing. maturing, in the ability to hear and obey God? Yes. Does this person today think she is a lesbian? No. Does she still get occasionally attracted to women? Yes. Does this person still do drugs occasionally? Yes. When? When she is not walking in Christ. She still falls back into temptation. Both most of the time, she is free from the attraction to women and to drugs.
I know a different person who accepted Christ in 7 years ago. She was dicipled for a year. But she was really damaged by life. She decided she did not want to follow His rules, and God eventually gave her over to her desires. She had a really rough life until last year, when she went to a safe environment, and simultaneously embraced and fought discipling. She was angry, hurt, wounded. She was addicted to sex and men. She abused drugs. Now however, she is beginning to walk with God of her own accord. She still has to work to not be the person she was, to not respond to people and situations and emotions in sin. But you can see Christ in her heart. She is growing in her abllity to trust and obey God. I think the biggest issue for her was surrendering to God. She hears God. She is used by God. But I believe it is because she has begun to surrender to Him, and is continuing to do so, little by little.
Both of these people are in my family. I love both of these people in non-abstract ways. I pray for both of them. I see that as they surrender to God, their desire/need to sin or respond in sin reduces. As they take back areas previously surrendered to Christ, that desire/need to sin or respond in sin increases.
Mike2685
"I am saddened by what you posted, because you showed so much more compassion under the posting for Exodus. "
The compassion is what brings me to tears to see folks tearing down God, the Word of God, and those who believe. This same compassion is what causes me to help the poor, sick, needy, immigrants, etc. This same compassion leads me to share God's Word.
"There are some on here who don't believe in God, but I hope your post right here was not meant for me. "
Your posts were only a microcosm of what I see on here that saddens me. I find encouragement in your posts as well. Its just the number of posts from people who are openly denigrating (which I have never seen from you) of God and people who believe, combined with the number of posts from people who defend obviously unbiblical positions, is what saddened me.
"I do have God. I do pray daily, and fervently, and it is in God's court what he wants to do for me. "
I can see you do. The post was meant for people who either deny God or deny His word says what it says. When I read your posts, I see someone who believes the word. This is part of what is encouraging when I read your posts. However, I also see someone who is trying to reconcile the Word to himself, rather than the other way around. Maybe I'm mistaken. *shrug* I have been before. But it seems you are trying to reconcile the Bible to your experience, rather than the other way around. This is part of what saddens me. I am not judging your worth or you even. I am looking at the posts and the Bible and trying to figure out how you justify your position.
"Many men have claimed to have the Truth, but Jesus constantly challenged what was thought to be Truth in the O.T. "
True, and I like your heart. I like your attitude.
"Yes, I believe in the Bible, but I also believe God works in mysterious ways. "
And as I've said, I agree with you on this.
Those who claim to be Chritian, but yet actively and willfully involve themeselves in the sin of homosexuality...I would have to seriously question their Christianity. Much the same way if someone were to actively and willfully be involved in theft or lying, I would question their Christianity too.
Jesus came and died so that we would not have to be in bondage to sin any longer. He calls us to change. And to stay in sin, and say the it's alright, is to make His sacrifice a joke.
I wonder how many other cultures have elevated "sin" to as prominent as position as our Christian culture has. Does anyone know? I don't think I have ever realized before just how preoccupied with sin some people are. (I know I am a sinner, and I guess many of you think I should dwell on it as you do, but I do not. Don't pile on, please. I'm just trying to be honest.)
last sentance should read
sometimes no man can give a worldly reason that is suitable for all, so we must accept it through faith without justifying it for ourselves. God will reveal all reasons when we are united with him.
Mike,
I think what wbmoore is trying to say is he loves you, for he too is a sinner and knows what it is like to carry a burden. He struggles daily with temptation, but does not use the temptation as an excuse when he does something wrong but to admit it as sin and live by the Truth of God. It would be easy for him to question and say does everbody else think it is a sin if not maybe it is ok, but he doesn't he listens and trust what is in the Bible is absolute truth. He is saddened by people justifying themselves instead of admitting they are sinning. If I am wrong wbmoore please let me know,but I read his post and he does have compassion for your struggle for it sounds like you are confused to what God truly has to say about your lifestyle(one way or another) and are searching yourself if would be at the time you stop searching at all and justify yourself by wolrdly standards he gets upset. Sometimes no man can reason give a worldly reason and that is suitable for all, so we accept what He said without justification
sorry igh, i flagged you for spamming. If you want to engage in real dialogue, that's what this board is for. You have no reason to post the exact same thing on every page, it wastes space and shuts down dialogue.
Jas 4:4 Unfaithful people! Don't you know that to be the world's friend means to be God's enemy? If you want to be the world's friend, you make yourself God's enemy.
2Co 6:14 Do not try to work together as equals with unbelievers, for it cannot be done. How can right and wrong be partners? How can light and darkness live together?
2Co 6:15 How can Christ and the Devil agree? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
2Co 6:16 How can God's temple come to terms with pagan idols? For we are the temple of the living God! As God himself has said, "I will make my home with my people and live among them; I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
2Co 6:17 And so the Lord says, "You must leave them and separate yourselves from them. Have nothing to do with what is unclean, and I will accept you.
2Co 6:18 I will be your father, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
2Co 5:17 Anyone who is joined to Christ is a new being; the old is gone, the new has come.
2Co 5:18 All this is done by God, who through Christ changed us from enemies into his friends and gave us the task of making others his friends also.
2Co 5:19 Our message is that God was making all human beings his friends through Christ. God did not keep an account of their sins, and he has given us the message which tells how he makes them his friends.
2Co 5:20 Here we are, then, speaking for Christ, as though God himself were making his appeal through us. We plead on Christ's behalf: let God change you from enemies into his friends!
1Co 3:16 Surely you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you!
1Co 3:17 God will destroy anyone who destroys God's temple. For God's temple is holy, and you yourselves are his temple.
1Co 3:18 You should not fool yourself. If any of you think that you are wise by this world's standards, you should become a fool, in order to be really wise.
1Co 3:19 For what this world considers to be wisdom is nonsense in God's sight. As the scripture says, "God traps the wise in their cleverness";
1Co 3:20 and another scripture says, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are worthless."
wbmoore, I am saddened by what you posted, because you showed so much more compassion under the posting for Exodus. There are some on here who don't believe in God, but I hope your post right here was not meant for me. I do have God. I do pray daily, and fervently, and it is in God's court what he wants to do for me. Many men have claimed to have the Truth, but Jesus constantly challenged what was thought to be Truth in the O.T. Yes, I believe in the Bible, but I also believe God works in mysterious ways. God does work through me, it is possible to be gay, to love God, and for God to work through you. I feel like many Christians lose sight of the fact that we're all on the same playing field, and it is so hurtful to me when Christians tell me I can't be a Christian, or I must not know God, or I am some wicked being. That's simply not true, and what hurts the most if the presumptions made by so many on this discussion board. I hope you are not one of them.
Apparently I got flagged for sharing how my heart aches to the point of tears for the poor lost souls who come here and try to ignore God or argue He does not exist or that His word does not say what it says. I am saddened by the non-seeking sinners who, rather than seek truth, want to define truth for themselves, They try to push aside the conviction of the Holy Spirit and instead justify themselves, their desires, and their actions by denying God's existence, love, righteousness, holiness, justice, power, personality and His Word.
Its sad. I wish they could understand that we are no better than they, and neither do we believe we are better or worse. We know we are sinners. But we recognize the truth of the matter, instead of trying to pretend to ignore it. We agree with god, instead of try to fight Him.
It is like they say, "ok, I dont like the fact that when I release something I am holding it falls, so from now on, when I release something, it will float." They might be able to ignore the truth of the matter, if they try hard enough I suppose, but it does not change the truth of the matter. I understand the thinking, very postmodern, quite rad. I used to think that way. "You believe what you want to believe, I will believe what I want to believe, and we will both be right."
Its sad that these people do not recognize that what they ignore is not something as trivial as gravity. It is of eternal significance. They do not realize that God loves them, and the gain from embracing His love is palpably awesome in physical, emotional, spiritual, eternal ways. They can not imagine what it is like to be loved so perfectly.
Rather than agree with God, they choose to ignore His existence, redefine what he has said, ignore what He has said. I haven't been posting much today, because I've been sad, reading the posts of people who are so obviously empty of God and dont know, or refuse to admit, their need.
I love God. I love people - all colors, sizes, shapes, religions, genders, etc. The sin of choice makes no difference to me, other than how it might affect me or my family. But one sin is no better and no worse than any other. But that does not mean I can condone it, even if its a sin I used to do and/or am still tempted by.
People confuse our standing on God's truth with condemnation and judgement of the person. They don't realize we have had gay relationships, have been drug addicts, have been liars, thieves, whores. They don't realize we have been released from these things. They don't realize we've been freed from the need to sin. They don't realize we dont hate them - we WERE them and ARE them. They don't realize we love them. But even if we rationalize, debate, discuss, quote scripture, wheedle, whine, cry, beg for the to trust God. Ultimately, it is God who must prepare them, God who must call them, God who must give them faith, God who awaits to embrace them when they accept the gift He has provided.
I to think all things are important, Ib think they don't get discussed as much is because we all agree the poor, hungry, sick,etc need our help and that we will help out if we can. It is the issues we can not all agree upon that is discussed the most. We should all try to do more for the things we agree, while discussing those we disagree on. we can disagree and still work well together.
I still believe all things in the Bible are relevant for life today, there is a passage that says that no problem is a new problem, but one that has already taken place. You may feel your problem is new but is not according to scripture. Sure circumstances may be different, but the underlying problem is not. I think the Bible tells us how to solve all underlying problems.
It's true, blue. No wonder the young American evangelicals are turning away from this topic and towards justice, helping the poor and trying not to pollute God's earth.
hmm... once again, the most popular stories and most commented stories involve gays. gays this and gays that. No one bothers to read up on the displaced HIV stricken children all over the world, or the morally righteous good people who risk their lives every day for rights we so stupidly take for granted.... but let's continue the mumbo-jumbo on gays... because its just so much more important.
Who fragged webmoore?
It saddens me, to see so many lost people come on here and instead of seeking, begin condemning. Simply because they do not like what God said.
I feel sorry for people who are not seeking truth, people who think they can invent the rules as they go along. I used to be that way. I know the thinking, very postmodern, very rad. But its like saying "OK, I don't like it when things fall down, so from now on, when I release something I am holding it will float in the air." They can blind themselves to the truth of the matter, I suppose, if they try hard enough. But it does not change the truth of the matter.
The thing is, the truth they want to ignore or change is not something as trivial as gravity. It has eternal significance. Ignoring whether God exists, ignoring whether God has done what is claimed in the Bible, ignoring whether or not Christ was sent by God to suffer and die for their sins and rose again on the third day to prove His divine nature is dangerous. They fail to recognize this.
Equally, ignoring what God has said about sin and not living a life of sin, but one of faith, love, and obedience, is dangerous. For as scripture says, if you do not do what is right, you are no child of God, but of the devil. If you do what is sinful, you are of the devil. (1 John 3:7-10)
It brings me to tears sometimes to read the smugness and disdain and defensiveness and sadness and emptiness of the people who come on here and either attack Christ, or attack the Bible and whether God REALLY said x, y, or z. It is as if they know the only way they can try to hold at bay the conviction of the Holy Spirit by denying His existence, love, righteousness, justice, personality, Word. But what they do not realize is the awesomeness of life, physical, emotional, and spiritual, that they are missing out on.
Yes, it makes me sad when I read non-recovering sinners write on here.
The resurection is what seperates Christianity from religion. It is only through the resurection that sin is forgiven. This is why it is difficult for non-christians to believe. Once you believe it you are faced with the choice of accepting Jesus and giving your life to Him or rejecting it. This would be where ignorance (not knowing) is bliss.
believer,
I see that. Most non-Christians don't.
prophet, hlerwin does not believe in the bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
prophet and star2, I learn something new everyday, I always thought Hallmark decided when Easter was, LOL, no seriously,I always wondered why Easter very seldom coincided with Passover and now I know.
Now I'm confused. hahahaha
Prophet - I am the one who said, "The resurrection is central to the Christian faith."
hlerwin,
You said "The resurrection is central to the Christian faith."
Amen. But as Star and I pointed out, Easter is a pagan holiday. It is scheduled to coincide with the vernal equinox, not with the actual time of Jesus' resurrection. As I pointed out, this yeat Easter was about a month ahead of Resurrection Sunday.
hlerwin - It is OK, who hasn't mistaken someone's post?
"Don't be obtuse." That's what I love about this place. We use words my 4 year old doesn't know. It's nice to have adult conversations. :-)
Give him time though. He's going to be 4 the first few days of school and he will be starting 1st grade English and Math....
At his rate, he'll be using words I'll have to run to the dictionary for....
Just though I'd post a word of encouragement.
"I wasn't responding to you but to what Prophet said: 'I believe in the Resurrection. I don't believe in Easter. There's a difference.'"
Sorry, star. I mistook that post.
star: 1) a lot, 2) yes and 3) yes
"The resurrection is central to the Christian faith. If Jesus did not rise from the dead then we are still dead in our sins. It is the resurrection that gives us victory over sin and death. It is what gives a believer a changed life when he/she receives Jesus as Savior and Lord from their heart. It is what causes people to be set free from sin's stonghold. It is what gives us hope when we die.
If God did not have the power to raise Jesus from the dead then he has no power to change your life or to give you life after you die. If God can't do these things then just go and live your life in the pleasures of your flesh because when you die it is over."
I think you limit God, star. My faith does not depend on the same minor points. And I cannot criticize your faith, and you can't criticize mine. It's a waste of time for either of us to declare that the other is "not a real Christian."
hlerwin
You said that you made a profession of faith in Jesus because of the Christian life your wife lived before you. What really did Jesus mean to you at that time? Has it changed over time? Did Jesus change your life after you prayed to receive Him?
hlerwin
Re:"star, you know perfectly well which "Easter" I am talking about! Don't be obtuse."
I wasn't responding to you but to what Prophet said: "I believe in the Resurrection. I don't believe in Easter. There's a difference."
LOL means Laugh(ing)Out Loud
hlerwin
1 Corinthians 15:1,3-6,12-14,16-19,25-26,32
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel ...
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
32 ...if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
The resurrection is central to the Christian faith. If Jesus did not rise from the dead then we are still dead in our sins. It is the resurrection that gives us victory over sin and death. It is what gives a believer a changed life when he/she receives Jesus as Savior and Lord from their heart. It is what causes people to be set free from sin's stonghold. It is what gives us hope when we die.
If God did not have the power to raise Jesus from the dead then he has no power to change your life or to give you life after you die. If God can't do these things then just go and live your life in the pleasures of your flesh because when you die it is over.
star, you know perfectly well which "Easter" I am talking about! Don't be obtuse.
star2, as you can see from hlerwin's post even though what you say about the origin of the term Easter is totally accurate, when most people say they don't believe in Easter they are referring to the Resurrection of Christ. But I appreciate you researching and sharing that, thanks believer.
Easter is a word that comes from the word Eostre. Eostre is an AngloSaxon goddess of spring. Eostre was venerated as a diety of ancient Teutonic mythology. She had her origin in the Babylonian Queen of Heaven whose name was Ishtar. Eostre was a goddesses of fertility. In other cultures the goddess of fertility was known as Ishtar (Babylonia), Isis (Egypt), Astarte (Phoenicia), Aphrodite (Greece) and Venus (Rome) and Ashtoreth (Biblical name, 1 Kings 11:33).
Easter is a celebration of the Babylonions' Queen of Heaven Ishtar. As a benefactreess of fertility she was associated with the rejuvenation of the vernal equinox. With the coming of spring all nature, seemingly dead, came to life, and it was common for pagans to worship her at that season.
The Council of Nicea (311 AD) decreed that the Easter season be the time to observe Christ's resurrection and established Easter day as the first Sunday after the vernal equinox.
There was a controversy of the Roman Church with the Asiatic Churches about when the resurrection of Christ should be celebrated. The Roman Church wanted to celebrate it during the time of the pagan worship of the goddess of fertility and the Asiatic churches wanted it to coincide with the Jewish observance of passover.
Easter Sunday, as we know it today, was instituted by the Roman Church.
The word Easter really represents the worship of the goddess of fertility and it has nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Information taken from "Facts and Fallacies of the Resurrection" by Al Dager.
hlerwin, so you don't believe in the bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ, the virgin birth, or many if any of the miracles of Jesus Christ?
Also, Prophet, what does "LOL" mean?
In rereading comments here, who sounds more sensible (and caring, for that matter)? Mike or igh? Sorry to use you as an example igh, since I don't really know you, but igh makes me want to paraphrase Walker Percy: If igh is FOR something, then surely I can't go far wrong being AGAINST it.
believer, I was actually quoting a good friend of ours, who said, "I believe all of it, except Easter." I would not make exactly the same statement. But I understand what she means. Why would it be necessary for God to go outside the laws of nature? If He created nature, would He not reveal truth through that creation? Every ancient religion has weird, unexplainable stories, most of them made up to suit the needs of the ancient folk who were looking for clear answers. I realize that I have the same human needs (and same failings) as those ancients. But stories like the virgin birth or the immaculate conception or, to go back, the "forbidden fruit" or the parting of the Red Sea do not carry the weight they used to. It seems unnecessary that Jesus's dead body was resurrected. Besides, that whole atonement idea sounds more like an idea from a Jewish merchant than from God. I hope God is bigger than that! So....you asked, and I see no point in lying about the way I think of these matters. One of my best friends believes every "dot and tittle" of the Bible. Other friends do not. Only God knows the hearts of these people. And I do not have the authority over these people to try to convince them one way or another. Don't make the mistake of thinking that I will "fall for anything," though. Just because I believe that many Bible stories are charming and still very instructive, if out of date, does not mean that I will believe almost anything. On the contrary, at times it seems to me that many on this Web site are willing to believe "anything," as long as it is in the Bible. This has more to do with people's religious nature, I think, than with intelligence. I know brilliant people who are Christians and quite stupid ones who are not (and vice versa). By their fruits we shall know them.
igh...since you seem to know the Bible so well, do you remember that passage where Jesus condemns the Pharisees who are praying loudly and making their penance in public? You are a Pharisee. There is no reason to behave the way you are, what you are doing is not trying to save anyone's soul, you are trying to get attention.
hlerwin, my bad I just saw that was a post from prophet and not you, but I'd still like to hear your view since you shared you don't believe in Easter.
hlerwin, please share the difference between Easter and the bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ?
We know that Paul's writings were being used by the time of the writing of 2 Peter, about AD 64 (Paul and Peter were martyred about AD 65), because Peter mentioned Paul's writings as being Scripture in 2 Peter 3:14-16.
I put together the dates of the various books of the New Testament if anyone is interested.
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/dates-for-new-testament-books/
I don't know. LOL. Is it?
Is this last post, Prophet, intended for me?
I believe in the Resurrection. I don't believe in Easter. There's a difference.
Oh, I remember. I said that igh's prayer was patronizing and that it might be better uttered in private. That was inappropriate?
What did I say that was inappropriate? I can't remember my post. Any help out there from the satanic far left, please?
Father in the name of Jesus i ask humbly you break the stronghold that is upon minneapolitan, and let him serve the Risen Saviour in Truth and Spirit, let him go to those lost in this darkness and bring many to the Light all in the name of our Lord Jesus, Amen.
A little patronizing on your part, igh. This prayer might be better prayed privately.
Off to a late supper....back later, guys.
Those MA state senators did the right thing for fairness for all. This is significant because it means that US gay marriages no longer are held by the threat of what will happen with the proposed gay marriage ban on the ballot in California. At present they can marry in CA but if the proposed Constitutional Amendment to ban their marriages passes, they would be back to square one. But now with Massachusetts performing marriages to anyone from anywhere this will make the vote in California irrelevant. Another win for the good guys.
hlerwin, for the early Christians to promote Christ was a sure way to get one killed, so why would they waste time making up a story that could very well get them killed? Plus is there anything in the Bible that you do believe is true?
hlerwin, by saying you don't believe in Easter are you saying you don't believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ?
This is a good point. After all, history seems to be written by the winners. If Hitler had won WWII our school books would be quite different for sure.
So, here's a thought for you... With that in mind do we not take all of history on faith?
Well, let me rephrase that. You could prove the accuracy of the Bible just as easily as proving the accuracy of the historic accounts of our presidents.
BTW, Easter is a pagan holiday as well as Christmas...both created and promoted by the RCC.
Jesus was crucified during the passover. This year Easter was a month before that time.
hlerwin,
Can you undeniably prove that Abraham Lincoln, lived, was president, and everything happened in his life the way we think it did?
Not likely
Especially in light of a remark made by one of the best Christians I know. (And I realize that you must know better ones.) She said, "I believe all of it - except Easter." She's led a wonderful life of joy and service, and sometimes I think she is right about Easter. It seems unnecessary, even childish.
Good point, but "almost undeniably" is right, not "undeniably."
hlerwin,
The problem with that view is this...
Yes it is possible that some may have trie to put spins on it, but there were just as many (probably a lot more) who adhered to the truth of the events who would expose the fakes in an instant. Not only believers, but remember there were critic of the time would be more than willing to point out any discrepencies or falsehoods that were being propigated. So, I'm sure the way that it was written is almost undeniably the way it happened.
Many of the accounts given by "witnesses" may tell the story of just how things transpired. Still, it does not take 30 years for insiders to begin to give a story the spin that they want to give it. Messianic, converted Jews certainly could have doctored the story. But, as one man in our Sunday school class always concludes (after a long, overwrought discussion of a section of scripture), "Well, it it didn't happen that way, it certainly COULD have." He right. It could have. But I don't really trust spinmeisters, ancient or modern.
mike2685, with regard to the authenticity of the Word of God rather than try and convince you might I suggest two very good books for you to check out: "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell and any of "The Case For...." books by Lee Strobel. I think they might help you better understand why many of us believe that the Bible in its' original autographs is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary, Word of God. Also, if your prefer videos Lee Strobel has one on "The Case For Christ" and Josh McDowell has one called "The Reliability Of The Scriptures".
Mike,
The New Testament was actually in place and being quoted by the end of the first century. There are a number of sources where prominent Christians were speaking of the "Scriptures" and epistles by the the end of the first century. That means that many of the apostles were alive when their own epistles were being passed around and used as scripture.
mike,
We have some presumed first generation extants that were written around 130 A.D. John Ryland's Manuscript in Manchester England.
Bodmer Papyrus II from around 150 A.D.
There are a number of other extants that come after that.
But you also have to take into consideration lectionaries and manuscripts from the Fathers that aren't Biblical manuscripts, but do contain enough scripture in them to make it almost impossible to argue with the authenticity.
We have accurate text of seven extant plays by Sophocles, but the earliest manuscript (copy) that we have is 1400 years after the author's death.
And so, I don't think that a couple hundred years in the case of the Bible is going to affect the Scriptures that much. Especially with as methodical as the Jews were about perserving them as accurately as possible. No other writing can attest to the lengths taken to make sure the copies were accurate.
Those numbers were taken from Evidence That Demands a Verdit 2, by Josh Mcdowell.
Read it. It will open your eyes to how accurate and untainted the scriptures really are.
Well...the tales about Jesus no...but many of the manuscripts in the Bible were written down after years and years of word of mouth, which obviously changes things. I do believe in the Bible, but I also believe in looking at its context, which is why I don't believe what is says about homosexuality (nor do I believe about slavery, women as subordinates to men, etc.)
And you're saying that the people who witnessed His death wouldn't be around some 30 years later to tell the tale?
OK, but Jesus died around 33 AD...
The Bible yes, but the manuscripts no. The earliest manuscripts were written around 60 A.D. or so.
Shucks, while I do believe in Jesus, the first hand witnesses were mostly dead and gone by the time the Bible was actually formulated.
I meant witnessing something as big as a ressurection. Sure there were probably people that they preached to that saw them. The thing here is that there are witnesses to Christ's resurrection. Something that is unheard of and also such a huge backbone of Christianity wouldn't have been believed otherwise. Anyone can go around preaching and have followers, just look at the Mormans.
Is that true? Are there no witnesses to anything the Buddha and Mohammed did? I'll look into that. Anybody here know about it?
The Koran was written from the teachings of Muhammad who was in the geneology of Abraham, father of Isaac & Ishmael. Isaac began the line for Jesus and Ishmael began the line for Muhammad. Obviously the teachings of the Koran will have stood in time because it's in direct oposition of the Bible.
Buddah was another man whose teachings are practiced. His followers teach that there is no God. It's obvious that those who would reject God would follow in His footsteps.
Regardless these two didn't rely on wtinesses to back up their religious beliefs. ie) Witness of Christ's death and ressurection. And mind you, this wasn't just a few, there's hundreds of them referenced in the Bible. If the Apostles had been lying and it was all made up their claims would've have been shot down quickly!
Yikes! I don't see "proved" on this board. It must have been at another post site. Sorry... My bad. It was a false attack.
I'll be glad to use "proven." I was only quoting someone who used "proved."
hlerwin, I don't usually do this but could you please use the word proven...it's bugging me. XD
The Buddhist scriptures have lasted a long time, as has the Koran. Were they "made up?"
"Gods Word came through men who were moved on by the Holy Spirit."
As I said, this cannot be "proved" on the site.
And in just a few years, the reactionary state legislatures that have enacted anti-same-sex-marriage laws will be busy rescinding them. Like the 1913 Massachusetts law that was (tardily) rescinded.....
Daniel Paul, the only case (that I know of, tho I could be wrong) in which Americans voted to REDUCE citizens' rights was prohibition. What a mess that brought us! The national "marriage protection amendment" will never happen. Face it.
believer gave Mike a thoughtful response, but I will c&p my earlier post here:
Mike is right. Picture it this way: Heteros get marriage, and homos get civil unions. There are two lines down at city hall. Two lines? Why two lines? Is there something here actually unequal about these citizens and their commitments? In how many places does the constitution require Americans with full civil rights tp "stand in different lines?" Now, if your church refusues the marry certain people, that's perfectly fine - for YOUR church. Don't try to tell my church what to do, though.
Christianity would never have survived this long without them.
Sorry let me add to that....survived if it were made up.
Why do you think the writers of the Bible used witnesses in their claims? When the manuscripts were written those people were still alive. Christianity would never have survived this long without them.
Whoa.....already pulling the anti-Christ on us, Daniel? That's creepy stuff. But I don't hate you, Daniel. I really don't care about you one way or the other. i don't even know you, so how could I be that involved?
Gods Word came through men who were moved on by the Holy Spirit. And beliefs can be proven by comparing them to the Bible, If they measure up to that ok, But if not, then we need to get some new beliefs.
God' Word came from the imaginations of people who lived long ago. Does that mean my imaginings are invalid? Besides, artm, I have no interest in "proving" anything to you. Beliefs on this bulletin board can't be "proved," anyway.
Speaking of Salvation through Him, Jesus said, " If anyone climbs uo some other wat, the same is a theof and a robber.
I guess He could have said that with a little more tact.
When John the Baptist refered to those with a mere profession of Salvation, As vipers, I guess he could have used a little more tact.
Unless this world understands that there is only one way to be saved. And unless we understand that the Bible is the Word of God, And unless people understand there is a Heaven to gain and a Hell to shun, All the tact in the world won't matter a whole lot.
As for this news story... It will be quite difficult for this action to effect states that don't accept gay marriage. States cannot be made to accept this as it is a state by state issue. If the majority of the voters pass the marriage ammendment then states must defer the US Constitution.
mike2685, I agree that there are issues that need to be resolved with regards to people who live together who are not married. I worked in hospice for four years and we had a homosexual patient whose partner was not allowed the same rights as a family member. As much as I disagreed with their lifestyle I had a real problem with him not being allowed to be with his partner when they needed each other most. But my wife's sister shares her home with a female friend and they are very close but are not homosexual. My fear is they would have the same problem if either one of them were to be hospitalized. But they have no desire to enter either a same-sex marriage or union. That's why I believe most people to include many opposed to homosexuality would not have a problem with domestic partnership rights for two people living together.
"I could not have asked for a timelier example of the kinds of people who are ruining the word 'Christian,' "
The word Christian means Christ-like. So, what artm said was consistant with the words of Christ. Still, I think I might have said it with a bit more tact!
The 'spirit of anti-christ' wants the name of Jesus and the concept of the Christ to be a horrible thing. Only then can the anti-christ take power. If Christ was a respected concept then the anti-christ would be run out on the rail instead of openly accepted.
Jesus warned us about people hating us for His name sake.
hlerwin, Prove me wrong from the Bible. Don't just give people your own imagination. Give me God's Word and prove me wrong, If you can't, then maybe you shouldn't speak on those things you know nothing about.
I honestly don't care if we call it marriage, and I think straight couples could "get in on" civil unions as well. My biggest thing is I want things like inheritance, health insurance, and child custody to all be protected by the law. The difficulty is, if I do that currently through a lawyer, its more expensive than just getting a marriage license, and its not understood by everyone (such as if my partner fell ill, I wouldn't be allowed in his hospital room unless I brought the paperwork from my lawyer, which then isn't even a guarantee. Marriage is.)
mike2685, I hate to have two discussions going with the same person on two separate sites, but if same-sex marriage is about legal and financial benefits then why not move to have domestic partnership laws passed that will allow two people to have the same legal and financial benefits of a married couple. That way the sexual issues which are what is causing the divisiveness in this whole matter are no longer a player with regards to domestic partnerships since they are about two individuals who may or may not be sexually involved?
Mike, keep a civil tongue in your head!
Oh, but I'm not giving up, giving up would have been killing myself, and frankly, life is just too good!
Mike, you're being selfish because you are giving into your sin instead of listening to what God says. It matters not how many good deeds you do in your lifetime God will still say He did not know you.
I'm glad you have been struggling it shows that you have conviction, but I am saddened of your willingness to just give up. Remember Peter says it is better to suffer for doing good than to suffer for doing what is wrong. (1 Peter 3:17)
Like those queers Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo. Before long, people like this will simply ruin our American civilization. We better watch 'em closely.
St. Paul struggled with his cross, his thorn. I wonder if he was queer. If he was, he did much good anyway, I think.
Hmm, again, I want to adopt kids and I teach in the city, I sound like a very selfish individual, huh shucks? As for obedience, I have been tried harder than you could imagine with my "cross to bear" in this life, and again, God would rather have me alive and loving who I am than dead and loathing.
Gee, sometimes I wish I knew as much about the mind of God as some of you folks do. Maybe I'm reading the wrong translation of the Bible.
Heh, God loves us this is very true but if we choose to go our own way and refuse to acknowledge His Word and what He wants of us then we must suffer the consequences.
Look at it this way. If you have a child and you teach that child all about good morals, how to treat others, and simply a healthy way of living you still have no control about what they choose to do in their life. When they commit murder they still go to jail. Do you still love them? Of course! But do they get to live in your house anymore? Nope. They have to live behind bars.
In the same way God will always love us. This does not, however, give us the right to make excuses for our selfishness and lack of obedience.
I could not have asked for a timelier example of the kinds of people who are ruining the word "Christian," artm.
And the judgement of God is getting louder and louder and louder.
Make all the excuses you want. twist all the Scripture you want, pass all the man made laws you want, But when it is all said and done, Every unrepentent sinner, including homosexuals will one day split hell wide open.
Shuck wrote: "First of all I hate that the homosexual community has destroyed the word gay."
And you people, Shuck, have almost destroyed the word "Christian." It used to be a beautiful word.
God made us the way we are. He probably is more understanding about being different than you and I could ever be. (Like, what about those southpaws? Don't any of you people here hate them like I do? Come on....)
I think Jesus is more grown up than you are, Shuck.
Mike is right. Picture it this way: Heteros get marriage, and homos get civil unions. There are two lines down at city hall. Two lines? Why two lines? Is there something here actually unequal about these citizens and their commitments? In how many places does the constitution require Americans with full civil rights tp "stand in different lines?" Now, if your church refusues the marry certain people, that's perfectly fine - for YOUR church. Don't try to tell my church what to do, though.
hlerwin, that's called lust. Period! Jesus talks about looking at another woman in hopes of having sex with her on His sermon on the mount.
My college classmate, back in the 60s, told me, "You know how you feel when you look at a beautiful woman? That's the way I feel when I look at a handsome man. The woman looks like she might be a friend or companion. The man looks like I could spend the rest of my life with him. Do you heterosexuals want me to spend my entire life without sexual intimacy? Could I ask you to do that? Would you do that?"
(And, please, I hope no one will start an argument here that "gays can change" of "Jesus can change them." Save that for another column.)
Shucks, yes, married couples have sex, but gay marriage isn't about having more sex, its about gaining legal rights. You are so simple minded you can't even look at the issue because you don't take the time to read and think about what I am saying.
Allen, the availability doesn't really matter to you, so therefore constitutional amendments against it are absurd. Im quite sure if I have a civil union, you'd know nothing of it.
And "heteroSEXual" would define your marriage, would it? As my wife and I age, sex seems to have not much to do with our love and marriage. I guess when the time comes that I can't perform at all, we should split up.
First of all I hate that the homosexual community has destroyed the word gay. Considering the true meaning of the word it shows the character of the community. Happiness is something we ourselves try to attain. The fact that they used the word shows their selfishness!
Now regarding your idea of marriage not being about sex. let's see just what Paul has to say about that:
1 Corinthians 7:1-7
Now regarding the questions you asked in your letter. Yes, it is good to live a celibate life. But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband.
The husband should fulfill his wife’s sexual needs, and the wife should fulfill her husband’s needs. The wife gives authority over her body to her husband, and the husband gives authority over his body to his wife.
Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a concession, not as a command. But I wish everyone were single, just as I am. But God gives to some the gift of marriage, and to others the gift of singleness.
Methinks you didn't read my post. I said yes, homosexuals have sex. Shocking, truly! Heterosexual would be the exact same definition you so cleverly copied and pasted, except it would be for opposite sex. Still, doesn't have anything to do with marriage.
No where has it been shown how giving gays the right to civil marriage and its legal benefits in any way has any negative affect on heterosexual marriage or traditional families. It has said that there is damage but no one has provided any evidence to back up this claim. Heterosexual marriage and traditional families do need constructive support. But why should I care about the availability of civil marriage to gays when there are so many very real problems that do affect me and others.
As a matter of fact let's look at the word homosexual...
homo
a prefix meaning same
sexual
1. of, pertaining to, or for sex: sexual matters; sexual aids.
2. occurring between or involving the sexes: sexual relations.
3. having sexual organs or reproducing by processes involving both sexes.
Sooo just a simple breakdown of the word itself shows the underlying motives of such a relationship.
Shucks, be careful, your ignorance is showing! Of course homoSEXuality deals with sex. That's not what I said. Gay marriage does not come down to how I have sex. Gay marriage is me wanting the government support for my family. If marriage truly came down to sex, then we would be testing every couple to see if they are fertile and barring those couples who have had sex before marriage.
Mike, if it doesn't deal with sex then why are they called homoSEXuals?
Gay marriage does not deal with sex! Stop trivializing my relationship into just sex!
hlerwin, Sex in the context of the marriage of one man and one woman is a beautiful gift that God has given His children and you take it and turn it into something that is foul and gross so that you can gloat about this decision.
"Drip....drip.....drip......" You anti-gay "rights" people's "real rights" are dripping away. Maybe you should pick a new "target." How about left-handed people? Surely we right-handed guys can agree to hate those southpaws! I used to hate to go to bat in front of a left-handed pitcher. The english was weird on that ball. (Of course, not as weird as what those gay people do to each other! I mean, after all, the things we straight folks do in bed are so dignified, compared to "those" others. God can clearly see how dignified we husbands and wives act as we pursue procreation. It just looks "right," somehow, don't you think?) Now, how did I just KNOW this morning that there would be a headline on CP about the Massachussetts ruling? Just a lucky guess?