Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Society|Wed, Jul. 16 2008 07:57 AM EDT

Mass. Senate OKs Out-of-State Gay 'Marriages'

By Lawrence Jones|Christian Post Reporter

In a move to let non-resident gay couples marry in the state, the Mass. Senate voted on Tuesday to repeal a 1913 law that prohibited couples from obtaining marriage licenses if they couldn't legally marry in their home states.

The Mass. House of Representatives is expected to vote on the repeal this week.

Gov. Deval Patrick, whose 18-year-old daughter announced last month that she is a lesbian, has said he will back the repeal effort.

Former Gov. Mitt Romney had enforced the law back when the state became the first in the nation to legalize same-sex "marriage."

Critics of the law say it carries racist edge because they say it was once used to bar out-of-state interracial couples from marrying in Massachusetts, which has recognized interracial marriage since 1843.

But traditional marriage supporters say the anti-race portrayal of the law is a misrepresentation by same-sex "marriage" advocates.

Massachusetts Family Institute points to the 2006 State Supreme Court ruling that upheld the law as constitutional and rejected claims that the law was racially based.

"The Massachusetts Senate has no right to infringe on the internal issues of how other states define marriage," said Kris Mineau, president of the MFI, according to the Associated Press.

Mineau said in a statement that the "express purpose of the 1913 law was to create uniform marriage standards and respect states right, but the state senate has now reneged on that principal."

The MFI said it expects entangling legal issues to arise if the repeal goes through. Same-sex couples would eventually sue their home states for recognition while those seeking a divorce from their Massachusetts marriages would face a legal limbo, argues the group.

Mineau said that if the House approves the repeal, it would reaffirm the need for a federal marriage amendment.

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  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I posted this elsewhere, but it fits here too:

    I knew a woman who loved a man who was married. She stopped the relationship before it got further out of hand.

    I know a woman who thought herself lesbian. She no longer believes this and is happily married - she is my wife.

    Just because we think something is, does not make it so. Just because something seems like it will never change does not mean it will stay the same. Just because someone loves does not mean it should be pursued.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    i dont want to interfere with one of the better dialogues.......................i just wanted to make a comment about the article for these posts.

    the passage of this legislation indicates that after several odd years of witness, the legislature comfirms the the ruling of the mass supreme court, that there was " no credible evidence why homosexuals should not be allowed to marry."


    the existence of gay marriage is no threat to heterosexual marriage, and may possibly be even be a support for it.


    my understanding is that the heterosexual marriage divorce numbers in mass have diminished since allowing gay marriage.


    and there is no evidence that gay marriage divorce numbers are trending in any way toward the percentages of heterosexal marriage divorces.

  • Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:39 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "If God loves us so much, why does he let a being whose sole purpose is to tempt us, ultimately damning us to hell, exist?"

    The same reason He sent His Son to die for you so you don't have to go to hell. It's your choice.

  • Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "But James, if God is omnipotent, why doesn't he just confine the devil to hell and be done with it?"

    OK...here's one to wrap your brain around. On the basis that time is a created thing then "the foundation of the world" and "the end of time" are the same instant outside of created time. Therefore, He did and has....

    Still, we don't know why God gave us free will. However, if God's M.O. was to not provide choice then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Everyone would simply be without sin like Adam was created and all of you people who don't believe in God simply would. Now wouldn't that make things simple!

  • Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike
    (see post before this one first)The under lying question is why does he give us free will. Some have answered this already, but I will try to relate it to your life for some prospective. you will need to make the Biblical jump for yourself. Who would make the best teacher in this situation....A man wanting a teaching job has applied several places. The only place to want to hire him was the one he really did not want, for it was in the poorest of neighborhoods( and he knew what that meant), or the man who knew what it would be like for those kids not to have a good education and made it his choice to get hired there for he wanted to make a difference? Two students got straight A's all the time, but one student was gifted and could do all his homework without help and could basically teach himself. The other student struggled he asked his teacher for advice all the time, needed things explained two or three times and it took him two hours every night just to finish his homework.Which student brings the teacher the most glory and pride? Which student is more endearing to the teacher the same kind of student as the first student in the first descritption or the student who was much like the second student but only got C's, but never gave up. He kept persevering because his teacher told him "son in this life it is not all about the grades you get, but the kind of man you are inside".

  • Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike
    The devil does uses our desires and feelings to tempt us as I said, but what makes you truly think that if the Devil no longer existed that there would not be sin in this world. Let me try to explain. Thoughts comes from what is in the heart, but Christ said if you think of wanting to kill someone , you have already committed murder. The devil does not always need to tempt us in order for us to sin, because we are born with sinfulness. The devil is kind of like a friend who knows you want a certain toy and keeps saying just take it, just take it. But we know sometimes we do not need that friend to push us to take it, we just will. God knew this that is why he sent His son down to die to save the souls of those who believe in him, and is why he promises us a new heavenly body one without sin for our souls to dwell in. God wants us to truly become like Christ, but we are able to hide our sins well in our heart, and it will only be revealed that you have not gotten rid of your sin but burried it, if the devill was allowed to remain to uncover those desires, so that you can know I have not yet defeated this one. I for one am glad he lets the devil expose what I still need to work on. The devil does not damn us to hell it is our choice in wether to believe in Christ that will damn us. I feel children are protected until they know what sin is and know who Christ is, they then too can make the choice. Remember Christ and God the father both have given kids great respect in discerning Truth. When they accept Christ they have the same power as an adult to call upon the name of God to help them in time of temptation.(next post)

  • Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:45 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Mark - But James, if God is omnipotent, why doesn't he just confine the devil to hell and be done with it? To me, that's kind of like allowing your child to have a party, supllying drugs and alcohol, then saying "If you use any of what I have given, I will disown you." Why even let Satan continue to exist? If God loves us so much, why does he let a being whose sole purpose is to tempt us, ultimately damning us to hell, exist?

    To answer that question you have to break down the meaning of love. Man was created so that God could share his love. When Adam and Eve where kicked out of the Garden of Eden it was not just because they ate from the tree of knowledge. It was also because they turned their back on God. God is very powerful and all knowing and he knew they ate from the tree but he didn't just kick them out but he gave them a chance. Rather then having fear towards God as a child should towards their parents they lied and pointed fingers. God will always love man but what he wished for is for man to show that same love in return. Love can not be forced. This is why man was given free will by God. God will do anything to bring himself and man together and show infinite patience in the process. It took thousands of years for Christ to come and it has been over 2000 years since. Ultimately these two will be joined but there is the factor of Satan. True if he were eliminated that would eliminate evil in the world. The problem is if you eliminate him you have to eliminate all that goes with him which is sin. All of us have sin and even though we are saved through christ we still commit sin from time to time so we would all be damed to hell. There is a parable that Jesus said about weeds growing in the field and that it is best to wait for the harvest because they can then be separated. If you try to pull the weeds while the harvest is growing you could lose some of the harvest. God has so much love for man that he is willing to save one grain one sheep and take all the time in the world to do it. God's wisdom is far superior than ours and he works on his own watch. So with all the temptation that exists it is a true testament of our love to God to resist them and to help others resist as well.

  • Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:04 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    " If God loves us so much, why does he let a being whose sole purpose is to tempt us, ultimately damning us to hell, exist?"

    The devil exists because he was an angel who chose to disobey. He wants to be God. In the process, he is trying to derail God's plan.

    I see the question being, "Why did an absolutely good God make creatures with free choice when He knew they would choose evil?"

    A. God did it so He would be able to display His Grace. It was not necessary for Him to create. God had five options with regard to creation:

    1. He could have chosen not to create any world at all. There is no morality involved in this option. God is relational. He wants to be in relationship with people who love Him.

    2. He could have chosen to make a world without free creatures in it. Again, no morality is involved in this option. Also, with no people in it, God is not able to be in relationship with people who love Him.

    3. He could have created a world of creatures who could never sin. In this option, the supposedly free creatures would be mere robots. There is no morality involved in this. With no choice, people would not have been able to choose God, nor choose good. It would have been morally better not to create.

    4. He could have created a world of creatures who must sin. This is the worst possible option. People would have had no option but to sin. This is in fact, immorality. Also, the people would have had no choice but to have been unable to love God.

    5. He could have, AND DID, create a world of free creatures where they COULD sin, but were not required to. This is the best possible option of how to create the world in order to reveal God’s character. Because of the existence of sin, God can reveal His grace. As Paul wrote in Romans 11:32, “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.”

    Unfortunately, or fortunately, our choices have consequences, in our lives and the lives of others.

    God uses our choices, and those of the devil and demons, in His plan. It is because of choices that I am who I am. This includes choices to obey and disobey God. God knew what it would take to have me choose Him over any other God, what it would take to have me become the person He wants me to become. Exactly the combination of physical, emotional, spiritual, experiences I have suffered and lived through. Without those, I would not be who I am, nor would I have chosen Christ - for real. I might have chosen to go to a country club and called it church, but I would not have chosen to give my life to GOD. Without being put in moments of crisis, I would not be the person I am. I would be lost, and been unable to be holy.

    Surpassing one's limitations, faults, body to become who God wants us to be is part of the Christian life. The difference between doing this in the Christian perspective and any other is that the Holy Spirit enables us to do it and is there to help us when things are difficult.

  • Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:35 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    mike2685, the difference is that God doesn't provide the temptation He allows us to be tempted and only to a certain point in that He always provides a means of escape. But the choice to use that escape rests with you and me. But if God took away our ability to be tempted or make choices we would be no more than human robots. His desire was to create us so that we would totally and freely love and worship Him. For our love and worship to be true and genuine it required God to create us with the ability to choose. The main choice being self or God and as you well know because of our sinful nature we tend to choose self.

  • Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    But James, if God is omnipotent, why doesn't he just confine the devil to hell and be done with it? To me, that's kind of like allowing your child to have a party, supllying drugs and alcohol, then saying "If you use any of what I have given, I will disown you." Why even let Satan continue to exist? If God loves us so much, why does he let a being whose sole purpose is to tempt us, ultimately damning us to hell, exist?

  • Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Mike
    " you believe otherwise, answer me this: If we believe as Christians God is omnipotent, why does he continue to allow Satan to have power over children?"
    I feel you have a misconception of the power the devil has. The sin is a battle of the flesh, for we desire and feel needs. The devil uses those desires and feelings in order to tempt us to sin, which we have the choice to participate in. An unbeleiever still has a choice to sin or not in a given circumstance, but only the Beleiever has the power from the spirit to truly call on God to allow him to win each and every time. The devil has no power over anyone, but the power we allow him to have by giving into temptation. He can tempt us but he can not make us it is what is in our hearts that makes us. As my last post to you said the devil uses our feelings and waht is in our heart for sin.

  • Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    My bad, James R. Lots of times there are words taken out of context (especially on-line!). I see that Mike had referenced the devil. To my thinking, it's hard enough for modern people to believe in a God, much less a devil!

  • Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin
    " It is impossible for me to see how this love could be sin, for sin comes from the devil, yet love comes from God."
    these words were from mike2685
    I think my answer the way it was written directly reflected his opinion. He is a beleiver with a different view point so referencing things he is aware of I think would be beneficial to him.

  • Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin

    Is it King College, a Presbyterian affliated school, in Bristol, Tn?

    Is it Milligan College in Milligan College, Tn which is just below Johnson City?

  • Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I think this man's Bible college was in extreme East Tennessee - maybe Kingsport or Bristol or that city just below those two (name won't come to me).

  • Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin-just out of curiosity...which Bible College?

  • Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I have no idea why someone gave thumbs down to hlerwin's post on the trinity...the post does represent the beliefs of many on the trinity.

    When man believes he is the highest lifeform in the universe then he limits his ability to scientifically explore his existance as he is all the answers to his questions.

    Assuming we were created in the image of God then we can assume our make up is somehow a reflection of the state God exists in. We have a mind, a body and a soul (as defined by Websters). In the case of the trinity...God is the mind, Jesus is the body and the Holy Spirit is the soul. We all know how people say things like "I know I don't need to eat this by I (my body) really wants it" or "how I think and feel aren't the same thing". They actually are different and function differently. Yet they all make up me. Would I be me without all three? We are actually 3 facets in 1. "God in three persons" yet we have little understanding beyond our existance. We don't even understand our existance!

    As for faith and rational...everyone fills in what they don't understand with faith. The athiest that sits in a chair has faith it will hold them up when they plop into it. Usually it does. Sometimes it doesn't and somehow we are shocked because our 'faith' in the chair turned out not to be true. Yet, each time it takes faith to just plop down in one.

    It takes far more faith to believe in nothing that to believe in God.

  • Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Here's a little tip for anyone, like James Reynolds, who is trying to give a sensible answer to an earnest question from a person, like Mike, posting on this site: Don't blame things on the devil. James, you really "hope that helps" Mike? Gee.....

  • Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:58 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    mike,
    you say how can this be sin if it feels so right. I would say the same way that The devil uses the love between two heterosexual people who committ sin by having sex outside of marriage. How could it be so wrong if they love each other, God wouldn't cause them to love someone and then say ooh wait you can not have sex would He? We both know the answer to that one. How about the girl who loves the man who beats on her. Why would God make her love him. The answer is qiute simple. In a earlier post I pointed out love in the bible is an action not a feeling, and the devil does use feeling in order to make us sin. you could say God created sadness so that we may have compassion toward others, but the Devil uses it to cause people to go into depression and loose hope. You could say God made happiness and joy to help us delight in Him, but then the devil uses it for some to feel happy when they bully people, you could say God created pridefulness so that we would boast of Him, but he warns us the devil will let us use in sin for many will have pride in themselves. Mike I hope this helps because the Devil uses our feeling in order to get us to sin. Remeber love is an action, and not so much the feelings we associate with it.

  • Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Daniel, if you are here, I spoke last night with a professor who retired after teaching 25+ years at a Bible college. He affirmed that the three big, monotheistic cultures place the greatest emphasis on sin. He made an interested point, though. He said that Muslims consider Jews, like Muslims, to be monotheistic, but some say that Christians are polytheistic, witha Father, Son and Holy Ghost. But, I said, all three of those are the same, the Trinity. The professor said that a Muslim scholar had demanded him to explain the Trinity. Even after many words and drawings, the Muslim said this made no sense. I guess that's why Unitarians left Calvinism. I know that some Bible scholars say they clearly see the concept of the Trinity in scripture, while others don't. My Bible college teacher friend thinks the concept is there - but admits it's hard to defend it in any rational way. (That's all right with me, since I don't depend on rationality for faith anyway. An objective reader on this bulletin board could deduce the fact that many Christians feel no need to be rational. Nor do I, as far as faith is concerned.

  • igh »
    Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    James 4:4 "Unfaithful people! Don't you know that to be the world's friend means to be God's enemy? If you want to be the world's friend, you make yourself God's enemy."

    Now here is the site i came across doing research not to long back. Here is the link that some have been asking on the movie being made on the lie of David's and Johnathan's homosexual relationship. You see there are 'church's' that believe such blasphemy that its hard to comprehend, but its all to justify themselves. Read the whole page but start where the link takes you. Its a satanic church. They preach a false Gospel and lead many to damnation. Its my 'Job' if you will my Gift of the Spirit and my Ministry given unto me by God to expose all those who lead others astray, to stand against them, and yes Debate them. And Jesus did 'whoop' on them in yahoo and many other sites!

    http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Resources&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=2122#Pt3

    this is the metropolitan 'church'

    1Corinthians 3:16 Surely you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you!
    1Co 3:17 God will destroy anyone who destroys God's temple. For God's temple is holy, and you yourselves are his temple.
    1Co 3:18 You should not fool yourself. If any of you think that you are wise by this world's standards, you should become a fool, in order to be really wise.
    1Co 3:19 For what this world considers to be wisdom is nonsense in God's sight. As the scripture says, "God traps the wise in their cleverness";
    1Co 3:20 and another scripture says, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are worthless."

  • Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:49 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Whether I was born this way or not, I know my sexual orientation was developed before my conscience was, and I don't think God would let a child become afflicted by the devil before that point. __If you believe otherwise, answer me this: If we believe as Christians God is omnipotent, why does he continue to allow Satan to have power over children?"

    Now THAT is a huge topic. But I will try to answer briefly (for me). I believe God is omnipotent. I believe God loves us. However, there are many reasons why things that we consider evil occur.

    There are two questions involved here.
    Q1) Why did an absolutely good God make creatures with free choice when He knew they would choose evil? He could have, AND DID, create a world of free creatures where they COULD sin, but were not required to. This is the best possible option of how to create the world in order to reveal God's character. Because of the existence of sin, God can reveal His grace. As Paul wrote in Romans 11:32, "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
    http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/20/why-did-an-absolutely-good-god-make-creatures-with-free-choice-when-he-knew-they-would-choose-evil/

    and Q2) Can suffering be justified? I think we will find when its all said and done that no suffering will be unjustified. But that does not help us now. There are a ton of reasons why someone might be given a predisposition for certain behavior, or given a physical malformity. We can not know them all. I can tell you the things I have suffered have helped make me who I am. This in turns help me be of use in positive ways for God. Because of my past, I can speak with you about your present.

    Our experiences make us uniquely qualified to deal with certain situations. If I had not had the experiences I have had, I would not be able to work with drug addicts, or prostitutes. I would not have been able to speak with homosexuals and tell them that God really DID say what He said about those things. He really DOES provide a way to be what He said we need to be, to act, feel, think, in holy ways. God's plan includes using what the devil does and what individual humans do so that the whole world will come to have a choice in choosing Him or not.

    http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/20/can-suffering-be-justified/

  • Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:49 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "but I keep coming back and knowing that God loves me and has a plan for me."

    I agree with you. God DOES have a plan. God WILL use you. But will He use you to help others come to Him or how...? And in what condition, one of holiness and righteousness, or what...?

    " I do not know how to put this in a way that will make sense or not be judged, but: I do believe in the Bible and that is teaches us how to walk in the footsteps of Christ, but I still believe it was written by men, and the men who wrote it "experienced" homosexuality in terms of Pagan orgies and self lusting. "

    I believe people (as a whole) do not change through time (although individuals do). There was plenty of heterosexual and homosexual sex in those days, much like in these days. I think God tells us what is right and wrong in His word. Sometimes He tells us part of the reason, sometimes not. Often we want to assign motive to God. But the best motives we can assign are those which God Himself puts in scripture. He loves us. He created us. He wants us to be with Him.

    "To try and close: I know what the Bible says, but there simply is no way I can reconcile that that is the Truth with my lifestyle, which I don't believe is from the devil. "

    This is where I say you are trying to reconcile the Word of God to your experience, rather than your experience to thee Word of God. The first says I have my experience, and it is valid as I understand it, therefore the word of God is not right and I must interpret the word of God in such a way as to agree with and explain my experience. Thee latter says I have the Bible and it is valid, therefore I have to interpret my experience in light of what the Bible says to explain my experience. These are slightly, but distinctly, different things. I submit we should always understand our experiences in light of what the Bible says. Sometimes we have to expand an interpretation of the Bible, but we do not change what the Bible says.

  • Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike2685,

    "thank you again for your openness and willingness to have a dialogue."

    Talking is one of my loves. :) You're welcome.

    " To answer your question, no, I do not and cannot believe that being gay is a sin. I was thinking for a long time about this the other day. I love my partner. I have been "in lust" before and know the difference."

    The emotion of lust has to do with sex. The emotion of love, with the person's essence. The emoton of like has a lot to do with the emotion of love, I think. I do not think all of the emotions (like, love, lust) are always present in any relationship. But the action of love should always be present. There is a distinct difference between them all.

    " While I would agree certain sexual "practices" may not be of God, because they could be harmful to you, my partner and I DO NOT practice them."

    This is good. But I'm not sure I would say the only reason God said to not do them is for health reasons.

    " I love his entire being, his spirit, his acceptance of others, yet I do not put him above God."

    As is appropriate. Nothing and no one should take the place of God.

    "It is impossible for me to see how this love could be sin, for sin comes from the devil, yet love comes from God. "

    I can understand how it might be difficult to understand. And at the same time, given what I understand of God and the devil, I do not believe it IS from God. Many times, God makes something good, and the devil twists it.

    Please do not take offense with the following example of a twisted love; it is not meant to indicate anything about you or your partner. While most pedophiles are into it for sex, power, acceptance, or to feel good, some are into it for love. They have a feeling or want to feel a feeling that God created as good. The devil has some how twisted the meaning and object of the emotion and it is directed towards children. This has a semblance of the love God created, but it is not what God created.

    "I have struggled, to the point of tears, to the point of drinking myself sick, to the point of sleeping around and saying "$*#@ GOD!" because of my frustration,"

    I have been this way. I remember when I first married and things were so difficult and I was a new Christian and newly married, I wanted to divorce. A pastor told me to read the Bible do what God said. I did. Me and God argued about it for a while, about whether He meant what it says concerning divorce. I had to come to a decision about whether the Bible is the word of God or a book written by men. I decided it was the word of God. I'm still married after 13 years. And I'm glad for it.

  • Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "movie depicting a Biblical love story between David and Jonathan "

    looks like a hoax

  • Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike2685, please explain what you mean when you say Satan has power over God's children and did you get a chance to see my post to you on the exodus site, thanks and hope you are enjoying you art fair, believer

  • Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    wbmoore, thank you again for your openness and willingness to have a dialogue. To answer your question, no, I do not and cannot believe that being gay is a sin. I was thinking for a long time about this the other day. I love my partner. I have been "in lust" before and know the difference. While I would agree certain sexual "practices" may not be of God, because they could be harmful to you, my partner and I DO NOT practice them. I love his entire being, his spirit, his acceptance of others, yet I do not put him above God. It is impossible for me to see how this love could be sin, for sin comes from the devil, yet love comes from God. I have struggled, to the point of tears, to the point of drinking myself sick, to the point of sleeping around and saying "$*#@ GOD!" because of my frustration, but I keep coming back and knowing that God loves me and has a plan for me. I do not know how to put this in a way that will make sense or not be judged, but: I do believe in the Bible and that is teaches us how to walk in the footsteps of Christ, but I still believe it was written by men, and the men who wrote it "experienced" homosexuality in terms of Pagan orgies and self lusting. Some of that still goes on today, but gays are also coupling up in committed relationships. Yes, our parts "don't fit" but that doesn't determine love. My partner and I do want to adopt a child, and if nothing else, 2 loving stable, supportive parents are better than one.

    To try and close: I know what the Bible says, but there simply is no way I can reconcile that that is the Truth with my lifestyle, which I don't believe is from the devil. Whether I was born this way or not, I know my sexual orientation was developed before my conscience was, and I don't think God would let a child become afflicted by the devil before that point.

    If you believe otherwise, answer me this: If we believe as Christians God is omnipotent, why does he continue to allow Satan to have power over children?

  • Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks for that answer, Daniel. In Muslim countries, I see that the scriptural law and civil law is virtually the same. Israel must have civil law that is quite a departure from Mosaic law. Would you say, though, that it is the big three monotheist "cultures" in which sin is so important? Do you know about Hindu or Buddhist or Shinto countries (or culture). I know they have concepts about causing harm to others. Are their proscriptions against commiting these acts as highly valued as the "high value" (for lack of a better way to put it) we give to sin in our culture. We are on our way out the door to a wedding - so I may not be choosing just the right words. I think you know what I mean. Later....

  • Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I wonder how many other cultures have elevated "sin" to as prominent as position as our Christian culture has. "

    sin-"a) an offense against religious or moral law. b) an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible."

    The USA is nothing compared to may other countries. The problem with seeing this is other countries (muslim) use their spiritual law as the law. In our country, we base our laws on Biblical concepts manytimes but we do not use Mosaic law as our law book.

    In many countries, sin and illegal are the same. So, many countries have elevated sin to the point where people get their fingers and hands cut off in public if they are caught steeling (sometimes with no trial).

    The Bible talks about how in the last days what Jesus stands for will be quite offensive and there will be a spirit throughout the world of people who hate the idea that that the Bible calls what they are doing 'sin'. This spirit of anti-Christ wants the word 'sin' to be a dirty word and a stupid concept to believe in. Why? Because the basis of Jesus the Christ is that He died for our sin. Remove the concept of sin and you keep people from seeing their need for a savior from it.

  • Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Some of you folks are going to have to get over thinking that the only "true" reading of the scriptures comes out of the Baptist publishing houses in Nashville, Tennessee, or from the Moody Bible Institute or some Dutch Reform part of Michigan. I have never thought of Jonathan and David's relationship as anything but close, close friends. If it is incorrect that their affection was homosexual, maybe it's good for Ang Lee to bring out that other point of view. Let it be refuted in the ensuing discussion. Following "Brokeback Mountain," many testimonies of homosexual cowboy relationships certainly came out. (No pun intended....)

  • Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike2685,

    The one thing I do not see in what I read from you is agreement with God that homosexuality is a sin, and repentance. If I am wrong, please correct me.

    I see people who struggle against the truth of God and I see them suffer in one way or another. I would love to help them avoid the struggle. I would love to help them avoid stopping the struggle in the wrong way (stopping trying to stop).

    I see people who want God to agree with them. I see people who want to redefine what God has said. I see people who want it to be easy to agree with God. I see people who do not want to avoid particular sins. I see people who agree with God that something is a sin, but keep doing the sin without keeping trying to change.

    Seeing these people, loving these people, saddens me. I know what they are missing out on. I know the joy, the warmth, the peace that comes from agreeing with God. I also know the eternal significance of agreeing with God.

    People who don't agree with God about whether something is a sin will have to answer to God. People who don't want to stop doing something they agree is a sin will have to answer to God. People who don't keep trying to stop sinning will have to answer to God.

    I see people who agree something is a sin, and try to stop/change, and then falling back into it again and then repeatedly having to repent because they keep going back into the sin. This is also sad. I'd love to help them avoid it. But its their path, not mine. But the difference between the previous examples and this example is that the latter reminds me of what Jesus said, in Lk 17:4 "If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him." I have to think that if we keep failing and keep trying, we will be forgiven. this is what gives me hope for the two women I wrote of earlier. But what if we fail to try to repent? What if we try but fail and then stop trying?

  • Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I wonder how many other cultures have elevated "sin" to as prominent as position as our Christian culture has. Does anyone know? I don't think I have ever realized before just how preoccupied with sin some people are. (I know I am a sinner, and I guess many of you think I should dwell on it as you do, but I do not. Don't pile on, please. I'm just trying to be honest.) I didn't get any takers on this question last time, but I'm still intrigued.

  • Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    James Reynolds,

    "I think what wbmoore is trying to say is he loves you, for he too is a sinner and knows what it is like to carry a burden. He struggles daily with temptation, "

    I do love Mike, whom I've gtotten glimpses of through his posts. I have a recurring sin in my life that is not mentioned directly in the Bible, but I know none the less for me is a sin.

    "but does not use the temptation as an excuse when he does something wrong but to admit it as sin and live by the Truth of God. It would be easy for him to question and say does everbody else think it is a sin if not maybe it is ok, but he doesn't he listens and trust what is in the Bible is absolute truth. "

    There are a ton of people I could ask who would tell me my sin is not sin. But it is.

    "He is saddened by people justifying themselves instead of admitting they are sinning. If I am wrong wbmoore please let me know,but I read his post and he does have compassion for your struggle for it sounds like you are confused to what God truly has to say about your lifestyle(one way or another) and are searching yourself if would be at the time you stop searching at all and justify yourself by wolrdly standards he gets upset. Sometimes no man can reason give a worldly reason and that is suitable for all, so we accept what He said without justification "

    wow, James. I read this and cried again. You said it so well. The struggle is hard. The struggle against God and His Word. I've seen many walk away from the struggle, rather than surrender to God. THAT scares me for them. I hate, because of my compassion, having to watch epople struggle. But I abhore watching them walk away from God.

    Instead of struggling with God, as Jacob did, they need to embrace and surrender and obey, as Christ did.

    I know its hard. I live that life. I watch others live that life. I'm just beginning to understand someting about faith, prayer, surrender. Love God. Trust God. Obey God.

  • Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I feel like many Christians lose sight of the fact that we're all on the same playing field, and it is so hurtful to me when Christians tell me I can't be a Christian, or I must not know God, or I am some wicked being. That's simply not true, and what hurts the most if the presumptions made by so many on this discussion board. I hope you are not one of them."

    I hope that is not what I am saying too. *rueful smile* I am sorry if I have made you or anyone else feel that way. That is not my intent. My intent is to help people come to Christ and grow in the love, and knowledge of, and obedience to Christ. I can only look at actions and words, not the heart. I can not tell you that you are not saved - only Christ makes that determination. But Christians have a duty to remind people of sin and what the Word says about living a lifestyle of sin not being of Christ. Sometimes that comes accross harshly. I dont know how to not come across harshly when reminding people who do not want to accept what God has said that He has indeed said certain things. I'm working on it. All I can say is that I am a work in progress.

  • Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "God does work through me, it is possible to be gay, to love God, and for God to work through you. "

    I agree, to a degree. I don't doubt God works through you. I dont doubt you are homosexual. I dont even doubt you love God.

    But I keep coming back to the scripture of Jesus healing the blind man who was born blind so God's work could be shown through him.

    God heals us, but we need some degree of faith, trust, confidence, in Him. I'm still learning the role of faith in prayer and life and healing and such.

    Perhaps because this comes so close to my own home that this saddened and simultaneously give hope to me. I have two examples of what I am trying to talk about. I'm not sure I can say what I need to without them.

    I know someone who I do not doubt loves God. This person accepted Christ 17 years ago. This person has done things strictly because God's word says so. Also has done things because it was felt this was that God wanted. Also has done things because God spoke in her heart. But this person is an addict. She keeps falling back into addictive behavior. She used to believe she was a lesbian. She had no sexual desire for men, only for women. Is this person afflicted by the devil? I believe so. Was this person born this way? I think so. Did environment contirubute to this problem? Undoubtedly. Is this person saved? I believe so. Is this person growing. maturing, in the ability to hear and obey God? Yes. Does this person today think she is a lesbian? No. Does she still get occasionally attracted to women? Yes. Does this person still do drugs occasionally? Yes. When? When she is not walking in Christ. She still falls back into temptation. Both most of the time, she is free from the attraction to women and to drugs.

    I know a different person who accepted Christ in 7 years ago. She was dicipled for a year. But she was really damaged by life. She decided she did not want to follow His rules, and God eventually gave her over to her desires. She had a really rough life until last year, when she went to a safe environment, and simultaneously embraced and fought discipling. She was angry, hurt, wounded. She was addicted to sex and men. She abused drugs. Now however, she is beginning to walk with God of her own accord. She still has to work to not be the person she was, to not respond to people and situations and emotions in sin. But you can see Christ in her heart. She is growing in her abllity to trust and obey God. I think the biggest issue for her was surrendering to God. She hears God. She is used by God. But I believe it is because she has begun to surrender to Him, and is continuing to do so, little by little.

    Both of these people are in my family. I love both of these people in non-abstract ways. I pray for both of them. I see that as they surrender to God, their desire/need to sin or respond in sin reduces. As they take back areas previously surrendered to Christ, that desire/need to sin or respond in sin increases.

  • Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike2685

    "I am saddened by what you posted, because you showed so much more compassion under the posting for Exodus. "

    The compassion is what brings me to tears to see folks tearing down God, the Word of God, and those who believe. This same compassion is what causes me to help the poor, sick, needy, immigrants, etc. This same compassion leads me to share God's Word.

    "There are some on here who don't believe in God, but I hope your post right here was not meant for me. "

    Your posts were only a microcosm of what I see on here that saddens me. I find encouragement in your posts as well. Its just the number of posts from people who are openly denigrating (which I have never seen from you) of God and people who believe, combined with the number of posts from people who defend obviously unbiblical positions, is what saddened me.

    "I do have God. I do pray daily, and fervently, and it is in God's court what he wants to do for me. "

    I can see you do. The post was meant for people who either deny God or deny His word says what it says. When I read your posts, I see someone who believes the word. This is part of what is encouraging when I read your posts. However, I also see someone who is trying to reconcile the Word to himself, rather than the other way around. Maybe I'm mistaken. *shrug* I have been before. But it seems you are trying to reconcile the Bible to your experience, rather than the other way around. This is part of what saddens me. I am not judging your worth or you even. I am looking at the posts and the Bible and trying to figure out how you justify your position.

    "Many men have claimed to have the Truth, but Jesus constantly challenged what was thought to be Truth in the O.T. "

    True, and I like your heart. I like your attitude.

    "Yes, I believe in the Bible, but I also believe God works in mysterious ways. "

    And as I've said, I agree with you on this.

  • Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:33 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Those who claim to be Chritian, but yet actively and willfully involve themeselves in the sin of homosexuality...I would have to seriously question their Christianity. Much the same way if someone were to actively and willfully be involved in theft or lying, I would question their Christianity too.
    Jesus came and died so that we would not have to be in bondage to sin any longer. He calls us to change. And to stay in sin, and say the it's alright, is to make His sacrifice a joke.

  • Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I wonder how many other cultures have elevated "sin" to as prominent as position as our Christian culture has. Does anyone know? I don't think I have ever realized before just how preoccupied with sin some people are. (I know I am a sinner, and I guess many of you think I should dwell on it as you do, but I do not. Don't pile on, please. I'm just trying to be honest.)

  • Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    last sentance should read
    sometimes no man can give a worldly reason that is suitable for all, so we must accept it through faith without justifying it for ourselves. God will reveal all reasons when we are united with him.

  • Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Mike,
    I think what wbmoore is trying to say is he loves you, for he too is a sinner and knows what it is like to carry a burden. He struggles daily with temptation, but does not use the temptation as an excuse when he does something wrong but to admit it as sin and live by the Truth of God. It would be easy for him to question and say does everbody else think it is a sin if not maybe it is ok, but he doesn't he listens and trust what is in the Bible is absolute truth. He is saddened by people justifying themselves instead of admitting they are sinning. If I am wrong wbmoore please let me know,but I read his post and he does have compassion for your struggle for it sounds like you are confused to what God truly has to say about your lifestyle(one way or another) and are searching yourself if would be at the time you stop searching at all and justify yourself by wolrdly standards he gets upset. Sometimes no man can reason give a worldly reason and that is suitable for all, so we accept what He said without justification

  • Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:46 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    sorry igh, i flagged you for spamming. If you want to engage in real dialogue, that's what this board is for. You have no reason to post the exact same thing on every page, it wastes space and shuts down dialogue.

  • igh »
    Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jas 4:4 Unfaithful people! Don't you know that to be the world's friend means to be God's enemy? If you want to be the world's friend, you make yourself God's enemy.

  • igh »
    Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    2Co 6:14 Do not try to work together as equals with unbelievers, for it cannot be done. How can right and wrong be partners? How can light and darkness live together?
    2Co 6:15 How can Christ and the Devil agree? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
    2Co 6:16 How can God's temple come to terms with pagan idols? For we are the temple of the living God! As God himself has said, "I will make my home with my people and live among them; I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
    2Co 6:17 And so the Lord says, "You must leave them and separate yourselves from them. Have nothing to do with what is unclean, and I will accept you.
    2Co 6:18 I will be your father, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

  • igh »
    Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    2Co 5:17 Anyone who is joined to Christ is a new being; the old is gone, the new has come.
    2Co 5:18 All this is done by God, who through Christ changed us from enemies into his friends and gave us the task of making others his friends also.
    2Co 5:19 Our message is that God was making all human beings his friends through Christ. God did not keep an account of their sins, and he has given us the message which tells how he makes them his friends.
    2Co 5:20 Here we are, then, speaking for Christ, as though God himself were making his appeal through us. We plead on Christ's behalf: let God change you from enemies into his friends!

  • igh »
    Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    1Co 3:16 Surely you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you!
    1Co 3:17 God will destroy anyone who destroys God's temple. For God's temple is holy, and you yourselves are his temple.
    1Co 3:18 You should not fool yourself. If any of you think that you are wise by this world's standards, you should become a fool, in order to be really wise.
    1Co 3:19 For what this world considers to be wisdom is nonsense in God's sight. As the scripture says, "God traps the wise in their cleverness";
    1Co 3:20 and another scripture says, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are worthless."

  • Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wbmoore, I am saddened by what you posted, because you showed so much more compassion under the posting for Exodus. There are some on here who don't believe in God, but I hope your post right here was not meant for me. I do have God. I do pray daily, and fervently, and it is in God's court what he wants to do for me. Many men have claimed to have the Truth, but Jesus constantly challenged what was thought to be Truth in the O.T. Yes, I believe in the Bible, but I also believe God works in mysterious ways. God does work through me, it is possible to be gay, to love God, and for God to work through you. I feel like many Christians lose sight of the fact that we're all on the same playing field, and it is so hurtful to me when Christians tell me I can't be a Christian, or I must not know God, or I am some wicked being. That's simply not true, and what hurts the most if the presumptions made by so many on this discussion board. I hope you are not one of them.

  • Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Apparently I got flagged for sharing how my heart aches to the point of tears for the poor lost souls who come here and try to ignore God or argue He does not exist or that His word does not say what it says. I am saddened by the non-seeking sinners who, rather than seek truth, want to define truth for themselves, They try to push aside the conviction of the Holy Spirit and instead justify themselves, their desires, and their actions by denying God's existence, love, righteousness, holiness, justice, power, personality and His Word.

    Its sad. I wish they could understand that we are no better than they, and neither do we believe we are better or worse. We know we are sinners. But we recognize the truth of the matter, instead of trying to pretend to ignore it. We agree with god, instead of try to fight Him.

    It is like they say, "ok, I dont like the fact that when I release something I am holding it falls, so from now on, when I release something, it will float." They might be able to ignore the truth of the matter, if they try hard enough I suppose, but it does not change the truth of the matter. I understand the thinking, very postmodern, quite rad. I used to think that way. "You believe what you want to believe, I will believe what I want to believe, and we will both be right."

    Its sad that these people do not recognize that what they ignore is not something as trivial as gravity. It is of eternal significance. They do not realize that God loves them, and the gain from embracing His love is palpably awesome in physical, emotional, spiritual, eternal ways. They can not imagine what it is like to be loved so perfectly.

    Rather than agree with God, they choose to ignore His existence, redefine what he has said, ignore what He has said. I haven't been posting much today, because I've been sad, reading the posts of people who are so obviously empty of God and dont know, or refuse to admit, their need.

    I love God. I love people - all colors, sizes, shapes, religions, genders, etc. The sin of choice makes no difference to me, other than how it might affect me or my family. But one sin is no better and no worse than any other. But that does not mean I can condone it, even if its a sin I used to do and/or am still tempted by.

    People confuse our standing on God's truth with condemnation and judgement of the person. They don't realize we have had gay relationships, have been drug addicts, have been liars, thieves, whores. They don't realize we have been released from these things. They don't realize we've been freed from the need to sin. They don't realize we dont hate them - we WERE them and ARE them. They don't realize we love them. But even if we rationalize, debate, discuss, quote scripture, wheedle, whine, cry, beg for the to trust God. Ultimately, it is God who must prepare them, God who must call them, God who must give them faith, God who awaits to embrace them when they accept the gift He has provided.

  • Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I to think all things are important, Ib think they don't get discussed as much is because we all agree the poor, hungry, sick,etc need our help and that we will help out if we can. It is the issues we can not all agree upon that is discussed the most. We should all try to do more for the things we agree, while discussing those we disagree on. we can disagree and still work well together.

  • Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I still believe all things in the Bible are relevant for life today, there is a passage that says that no problem is a new problem, but one that has already taken place. You may feel your problem is new but is not according to scripture. Sure circumstances may be different, but the underlying problem is not. I think the Bible tells us how to solve all underlying problems.

  • Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It's true, blue. No wonder the young American evangelicals are turning away from this topic and towards justice, helping the poor and trying not to pollute God's earth.

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