Pro-family groups were encouraged this week by the announcement that the U.S. Census Bureau will not include same-sex “marriages” in its upcoming 2010 census report.
“The U.S. Census Bureau procedures used to count and tabulate relationship data are guided by and comply with legal requirements of the Defense of Marriage Act of 1996, which requires all federal agencies to recognize only opposite-sex marriages for the purposes of administering federal programs,” explained Census Bureau spokesman Stephen Buckner in a statement.
“Many of these programs rely on Census Bureau statistics,” he said. According to Census Bureau officials, any respondents who mark off persons of the same gender as “husband” or “wife” on the new census form will be automatically classified as an “unmarried partner.”
Currently, the Census Bureau considers as a family “two or more people related by birth, adoption or marriage.”
Jennifer Kerns, a communications director for ProtectMarriage.com, which is behind the ballot initiative to restore traditional marriage in California, was thrilled to see a federal institution backing the sanctity of marriage.
“The way that the federal government looks at it is the way that the law says it should be in California,” she said in a statement.
Jenny Tyree of Focus on the Family Action also lauded the recent development as a victory for common sense.
“The word 'marriage' has long been understood across many cultures as the cooperative union of male and female with a vital interest in the next generation,” she said in a statement.
“Thankfully, President Clinton signed the federal Defense of Marriage Act and gave the Census Bureau a clear guideline,” she concluded.
As the government agency that is responsible for the United States Census, the U.S. Census Bureau is mandated with fulfilling these obligations: the collecting of statistics about the nation, its people, and economy.
In addition to conducting a full population count every 10 years and making population estimates and projections between censuses, the Census Bureau also conducts surveys on behalf of various Federal Government and local government agencies on topics such as employment, crime, health, consumer expenditures, and housing.
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hlerwin,
"Well put, wbmoore, and I agree wholeheartedly. The place where you and I start to disagree is over the fact that the Dalai Lama went through this same process - with identical results. "
Thanks. I realize you did not want me to answer, but I felt I must. I agree that people of no faith and any faith can go through a process of personal renewal. But I disagree that the results are identical. The results might appear similar in the here and now, but are drastically different in the eternal.
The difference between just anyone doing this and a Christian doing it is the object of faith.
If God sent Jesus, and Jesus said He is the only way to be with God, then He's right. In which case, if someone puts his faith in himself, or other people, or something he want to call god and thinks this will help him in the eternal, then that person is mistaken.
If Christ was mistaken, then God is not who He said in the Bible He is.
But even if Christ was not sent by God, then it still boils down to what is the object of your faith, in who/what do you believe.
Not all religions can be right. Truth is truth - not what you or I or anyone wants it to be. The sun exists right now in space or it does not. It can not be both.
The same is true of God. Either there is one or not. If there is a god, then either He is the God of the Bible or not. It is because of the exclusive claims of Christ that we have decide definitely whether to believe and follow Christ or not.
If Christ was wrong, then we are free to think and act as we wish in this life. But if Christ was right, and Christ IS from God, and He IS the only way to be with God, then we have to do what He said to do.
Thus, if Christ was right, personal renewal (called spiritual growth by Christians) for a Christian provides benefit in this physical life, as well as in the afterlife. But there would be no such spiritual benefit in the afterlife for the non-believer, even if there might appear to be similiarities in the physical (they would not be identical, since the personal renewal for a Christian also helps one grow spiritually in relation to God).
If Christ was wrong, and there is no spiritual life, then the effects of anyone working for personal renewal can be the same in this life.
If Christ was wrong, but there IS an afterlife, then while the effect of personal renewal might be similiar in the physical realm, only those who follow whatever god needs to be followed will have benefit in the afterlife, and will have benefit from spiritual growth toward the god.
Well put, wbmoore, and I agree wholeheartedly. The place where you and I start to disagree is over the fact that the Dalai Lama went through this same process - with identical results. (As I stated, we will disagree on this, so there's no need to answer by telling me that, yes, the Dalai Lama did that, but he is following a false god. I respect your ideas, but I don't need a reply.)
I've been thinking about grace and obedience and growth. I think the key is: upon regeneration by the Holy Spirit, there needs to be change towards God. The Holy Spirit then begins to convict us and generate a desire to obey God, in at least one area. If we are truly saved, as we mature in the faith (through prayer, reading the Bible, fasting, discipleship, sitting under teachers, encouragement of brothers, stepping out in faith, God speaking to us in what ever way we perceive), we will move towards a state of increasing love for God and obedience to the word of God. Many of us will have times of uncertainty, times of disobedience, but will be convicted by the Holy Spirit and confess our sins (agree with God), and move forward in our maturity.
James Reynolds,
Thanks, I feel the same about you all.
"I believe we need to treat people with love, but not necessarily kid gloves"
The Bible says to speak the truth in love. As our pastors point out in sermons from time to time...we either speak the truth or we think it's unloving to. This is called being 'passive/aggressive'.
The Bible calls us to be full of grace (which is assertive). I think all too often too many Christians are full of something else.... After all, if everyone who claimed the name of Christ actually loved God and mankind as He did...who could argue with our faith?
"Why is it so hard for people to understand they are not showing grace by beating people over the head with the Bible and Christianity?"
I think its where God has them - for some it is where they are in the growth continuum. For others it is calling.
I believe we need to treat people with love, but not necessarily kid gloves.
God has brought me to a place where, as I've said, we need to use scripture, and tie it in with real life. I don't think I was alway where I am in this. I think at one time, Scripture was sufficient. At another time, real life was the over riding feature of what I had to say. I think its more balanced to do both.
But then, I'm a teacher, not a prophet. I CAN be used as a prophet. I CAN be used as an evangelist. I CAN be used to exhort others. But my main calling is to teach. This is not the case for everyone.
DP, believer, wbmoore, prophet, and rollin4him, mike2685
I would like to thank each one for your opinions for I see Christ in each one of you at different points in your life and it helps me to continue my santification. God bless you all, and I look forward to more relevant conversations with each of you
"we see legalism instead of grace."
You don't have to go much further than how posters like Mike and some others are treated here to see your point loud and clear. Why is it so hard for people to understand they are not showing grace by beating people over the head with the Bible and Christianity?
The problem has been called 'easy believism' or 'Lordship of Christ', depending on the emphasis in question.
I have seen many 'Christians' fall into the category that basically states, "I have made a profession of faith what more do I need?" (sometimes the checklist includes baptism, and sometimes church attendence. But for those people who fall into this category, rarely is obedience to God through obeying what the Bible states included in their checklist - and when it is, we see legalism instead of grace.
Daniel Paul, how true it is that is why I have led out in our community to unite the churches to begin a resource center that helps provide food to the needy. We also help find people jobs, help them learn to budget, assist with meds and many other things.
The church in general has yeilded our responsibility over to the goverment and allowed it to usurp is mission. We need to do better as the church in feeding their stomachs and feeding their souls.
"It just doesn't make sense to say, 'I'm a Christian' and then not believe the Lord's very words."
Simple...that seems to be the example from the majority of Christians today. After all, if we actually believed every word of the Lord, we would not have welfare in this country because we would be loving our neighbor as ourselves. There is little room to question true Christian love.
There's a quote...I don't know who said it. 'We have enough religion to hate but not enough religion to love.'
bigtex, hard to say, but maybe he'll give us an answer.
believer, that is interesting. I wonder if he experienced that same change thru a relationship with Jesus or if Christianity is just another "religion."
bigtex, thanks and it doesn't make sense to me either. I think for some its about going to heaven and not going to hell, so they say a prayer, get baptized, join a church and then live their life anyway they choose. They fail to see that salvation is about a relationship with God and unfortunately for them I believe many of them are still not saved. But what's interesting about hlerwin is that he does not believe in the afterlife and when I asked him why he became a Christian he simply says because of the change he saw in his wife when she became a Christian.
believer, i know you are right but why would one want to be a Christian and be a disciple of Christ and then not want to follow Him. A disciple is to follow Christ even when he leads into unknown territory. It just doesn't make sense to say, "I'm a Christian" and then not believe the Lord's very words.
It is just unfortunate that some Christians are willing to compromise the faith and adopt the pluralistic philosophy of the inclusivism.
Keep up the good work believer.
bigtex, I understand what you're saying, but we do get to choose not to obey the Word of God, but if we choose to not obey the Word of God that does not negate the fact that it is still the Word of God. What hlerwin appears to be saying is that obedience and/or belief in what parts of the Bible are truly the Word of God is a matter of personal opinion, if you don't like something that is taught or a command that is given in the Bible you simply choose to ignore it and say it is not the Word of God and therefore I'm not obliged to believe it or obey it regardless what the Bible has to say about it.
hlerwin, I am not attempting to be "sassy" but your comments have a few problems. First you said, "let me say that I plan to live my entire life following, as closely as I can, the instructions laid out for my culture and my family in the Bible." (July 22, 9:33 post).
With this statment I will assume you are a brother in Christ. Now here is the problem. I quoted Romans 13:1-2 which declared that God is the author of civil government and that no government exist without God's authority. Therefore, secular government falls under God's authority, thus marriage falls under God's authority. Note I did not say this, the Bible declares it.
Next you said,in your posting July 22, 11:41 post that it was ok for me to believe this but you could not. Here are your own words,"That's fine with me for you to believe that. But I don't." As a Christian, we do not get to choose what we want to believe in the Bible and what we want to ignore. We must all adjust our belief and concepts to God's word. We must never attempt to conform God's word to our preconceived ideas.
As a Christ follower, Jesus is Lord! His word declares it that is all we need to know. Now let's follow the word of the Lord.
You are right, I do not have authority over you, nor do I want such a right, but as a Christian believer, God's word is our standard by which we judge everything and everyone. God's word, the Bible, must be our authority therefore we must live by it, even when it goes against current cultural beliefs.
hlerwin
how do you reconcile the Truths that are in the Bible to apply them to your life and family if you do not believe everything in the Bible as it is written. How do you determine which ones are important? Which ones are really true? Which ones then would apply to your life?
Daniel Paul,
Excellent!
"Religion (every religion) has frequently been used in every culture to underpin our prejudices "
The Bible calls those people who would do such wolves in sheeps clothing. Being against sin isn't prejudice as prejudice is against people themselves rather than a behavior which the Bible clearly warns about.
The word marriage is defined in Websters as "a: the state of being married b: the mutual relation of husband and wife c: the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the furpose of founding and maintaining a family"
Simply put, the word marriage is confined to the relationship between a man and woman within the secualar definition.
"We would be losing our secular foundation."
A more accurate statement would be 'neutral foundation' as secularism is a religion. Still, marriage being between one man and one woman is supported by the dictionary.
I feel sorry for people who think all religions are the same. Something is either true or not. Not all can be true, as the do not all teach the same thing. Only one of them is right.
hlerwin, I had a professor in college who said that one of the most unbiblical sayings in the Christian community was, "God says it, I believe it, that settles it." He went on to say it doesn't matter if anyone believes it or not, if God says it that settles it and if we have any sense at all we'll believe it. Christ said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one can come unto the Father but through Him. God said it, that settles it. There is no other way a person can become a child of God but by putting their faith/trust in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ alone. Our opinion of what saves a person does not change the fact that only Jesus can save a person. The only thing that matters is that we put our faith/trust in Christ alone to save us from the penalty of our sins, make us a child of God, and give us eternal life.
Religion (every religion) has frequently been used in every culture to underpin our prejudices (just as it's being used today regarding the question of gay marriage). It's a moot point anyway, since the men who are marrying men and the women who are marrying women don't give a flip for what you and I think of their "marriage," as CP always writes in in quotes. Five or ten years from, even CP will have dropped those quotation marks. Marriage is a civil right, period.
Hmmm..... "It was understood by society, which had a much more godly influence, that marriage is of God..."
Both more godly AND more racist back then? Can it be both?
That 11:41 post was in reply to bigtex.
"The Bible declares that even secular government falls under the authority of Almighty God in the same manner that marriage falls under His authority."
That's fine with me for you to believe that. But I don't. And you have no more authority over me than I have over you. (Or "your 'version' of our God has no more authority over me," perhaps I should say. And your SAYING that He does really cannot make it so.)
believer, first of all, you and I have the same God. Don't be so sassy about that. When I read what you write, I am reminded of my wife's great-grandmother, who used to pray to Lono (the Hawaiian cargo-myth god) with such fervor. Later the lady became a Congregationalist, and she prayed to Jesus in the same tones. Every religious person is convinced that his/her god is the true god. Otherwise, we could not bring ourselves to worship that god. As I said, faith is a gift, and I have no intentions of trying to talk you out of your beliefs - nor could I, if I did want to do that.
By the way, I did a little research about when marriage liscense became the norm in America. Though there is no definitive date and time, it is thought that such practices developed around the mid 1800's.
Around the mid 1800's some states required a liscense from the state for inter-racial marriages to be "legal." Until that point all marriages were deemed "legal" without such a document. (George and Martha Washington did not have a marriage liscense authorizing marriage.)
It was understood by society, which had a much more godly influence, that marriage is of God and does not need the "validation" of the state. It was also understood that marriage was and is today an issue of religion, whether a person is religious or not. Even in Civil ceremonies, the name and blessing of Almighty God was invoked.
"But I am not naive enough to think that my way is the only way. What hubris! (And what a puny god.)"
hlerwin, your thoughts and theology frightens me when you say that you follow the Bible yet you do not accept the words of our Lord when He declares to be "the way and the truth and the life." Jesus literally claims to be THE ONLY WAY a person can have a relationship with his Creator.
That being said, I can understand why you would feel like you do on this issue. As you read the Bible you will see that it is God (not god) who has even established "secular" government. Romans 13:1 declares "For there is not authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."
The Bible declares that even secular government falls under the authority of Almighty God in the same manner that marriage falls under His authority. Carried to its full understanding, the Bible declares that sinners and saints alike fall under the authority of God. God is sovereign and we must be careful not to reduce Him to our own level.
hlerwin, but your view and my view doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is God's truth. Your god may be a puny god, but the God of the Bible is omnipotent in that He created the world by simply speaking it into existence and when He created Adam and Eve, He instituted marriage and thus God alone is the foundation for marriage. Your god appears to be a wimp who can't make up his/her mind. Whereas, the God of the Bible declares through His Son, Jesus that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one can come to the Father(God) but through Christ. There is no other way but Christ. And to say there is makes both you and your god a liar.
Yikes! (4th post!) Faith is a gift. It cannot be rationally explained.
At the risk of being criticized for 3 post when I could have said all I wanted in 1 post, let me say that I plan to live my entire life following, as closely as I can, the instructions laid out for my culture and my family in the Bible. But I am not naive enough to think that my way is the only way. What hubris! (And what a puny god.)
My analogy makes as much sense as your Edison analogy.
That's entirely your choice, believer, to think that a contract like marriage originated from your culture's collection of stories. The Japanese emperor (according to their myths) descends from Amaterasu (sp?), the sun god. And Lono will still return again to Polynesia with gifts for everyone who believes in him. Marriage is a valuable concept in any society. Our society and our religion did nor originate the idea. You may never have heard of Amaterasu, but you may have driven a Japanese car before. Does this make Amaterasu real and true?
hlerwin, there are many in the world who may or may not know the name of Thomas Edison and yet they still benefit from many of his inventions and the advanced technology that has resulted because of the groundwork he laid. Just because people either don't know or choose to not acknowledge the God of the Bible doesn't negate either Him or what He has created or instituted.
hlerwin, I repeat the FOUNDATION for marriage can be found in God alone when He instituted it in the Garden of Eden with the creation of Adam and Eve. And God's plan for marriage as one man and one woman was reaffirmed by Christ in the New Testament.
believer, marriage exists in many places that have never heard of our God or our scripture. They've never heard of Jesus, either, but these cultures have concepts of marriage. Don't be so narrow.
hlerwin, the foundation of marriage is in God who when He created Adam and Eve also instituted the marriage of one man and one woman. And Jesus Christ in the New Testament affirmed God's plan for marriage as well.
My (lost) point in all that, bigtex is: I do not agree that marriage "has its very foundation in religion."
I think the concept of marriage has more to do with law than with religion, bigtex. The state must approve the marriage. After all, many people are married at city hall with no benefit of clergy. For many years (but not from the beginning of time), people have viewed what our government decreed and what the church decreed as the same thing. This is quite naturallly changing, along with society. If you are not in favor of same sex marriage then, of course, you have every right to oppose it. Your children and grandchildren probably will not feel so strongly about the topic. (At least, my children don't, though they are all in heterosexual marriages.) But courts sometimes come in to protect minorities from the "tyranny of the majority," just as the courts did during desegregation. Though I agree that desegregation and same-sex marriage are not completely parallel issues, they are close enough. And even if the California voters put in their anti-gay-marriage proposition, it will only be a temporary set-back for people of the same sex who want their full civil rights.
hlerwin, my point exactly. Marriage has its very foundation in religion. I would be interested to know when government, esp. the U.S. gov. or state got involved in issuing marriage license. Why did they get involved in the first place? It appears that gov. took over a responsibility of the church in declaring one married.
One problem I see is the rise of pressure from governments around the world to pressure the church into performing homosexual marriage or be fined or at worst be closed down. If two people of the same sex want to play house please don't force the church to approve or participate. We are witnessing the church being forced to recognize homosexuality and if it doesn't then they are labeled as "homophobes" or "hatemongerers."
We are truly witnessing a moral breakdown of society and history shows acceptance of homosexual behavior is the removal of the final building block of civil society. At this point, I am not willing to risk civil and moral decay and will speak out against every attempt to normalize the homosexual lifestyle.
"It would be great if the government recognized that marriage is of God...."
Not so great, really. I hope I never live in a US where the "government recognized that marriage is of God." We would be losing our secular foundation.
Still, churches can perform the marriage ceremony for people who are their members. If a chuch does not approve of two men or two women marrying, it should not perform the ceremony. This, however, does not give that church or denomination any authority over other churches.
Just a thought here but maybe the U.S. government does not recognize homosexual marriage because there is no such thing as homosexual marriage. There is of course, homosexual cohabitation that attempts to define itself as marriage and two men or two women pretend to be husband and wife.
It would be great if the government recognized that marriage is of God and that being said is an issue for the church to define. Marriage existed long before organized government. It may well be a church-state issue.
chicago24 - I don't know that you understand the legalities of the system. In short...it's a bit on the nutsy side.
The Federal Census Bureau in not bound by the choices of individual states. Since there was nothing on the federal level preventing one man one woman marrige between races then they would count all the one man one woman marriages. In the case of same sex marriage, they will not count them for the same reason. The Federal level is not bound by the choices of individual states but rather by the federal law. It's actually an issue of 'blindness' and not discrimination. It's nothing more than complance to federal law.
Prior to 1967, there were 13 states that did not allow interracial marriages. Did the U.S. census not count ALL interracial marriages prior to 1967? It would be an interesting precident to find out.
Daniel, I left a follow-up for you just now at the "Mass. Senate" site. Maybe we should move to a "fresher" column.
My response to igh's post is on the Exodus page along with questions for him. No need to waste space reposting everything.
James 4:4 "Unfaithful people! Don't you know that to be the world's friend means to be God's enemy? If you want to be the world's friend, you make yourself God's enemy."
Now here is the site i came across doing research not to long back. Here is the link that some have been asking on the movie being made on the lie of David's and Johnathan's homosexual relationship. You see there are 'church's' that believe such blasphemy that its hard to comprehend, but its all to justify themselves. Read the whole page but start where the link takes you. Its a satanic church. They preach a false Gospel and lead many to damnation. Its my 'Job' if you will my Gift of the Spirit and my Ministry given unto me by God to expose all those who lead others astray, to stand against them, and yes Debate them. And Jesus did 'whoop' on them in yahoo and many other sites!
http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Resources&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=2122#Pt3
this is the metropolitan 'church'
1Corinthians 3:16 Surely you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you!
1Co 3:17 God will destroy anyone who destroys God's temple. For God's temple is holy, and you yourselves are his temple.
1Co 3:18 You should not fool yourself. If any of you think that you are wise by this world's standards, you should become a fool, in order to be really wise.
1Co 3:19 For what this world considers to be wisdom is nonsense in God's sight. As the scripture says, "God traps the wise in their cleverness";
1Co 3:20 and another scripture says, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are worthless."
Mike, I know it's annoying for igh to post lists and lists of scripture. It looks like my concordance. Still, perhaps in time he will learn to discuss. Having had 6 children myself I understand there are different maturity levels.
So, let's all stop flagging one another. If igh keeps turning threads into a concordance we will simply help him to expand his ability to discuss by asking him questions about what he posted and the significance of it.
As a teacher, I'm sure you have an understanding of what I am saying....
"I am not saying that igh's approach is of God. He believes that it is. I am not saying that your approach is of God either. But you seem to think that it is."
A servant knows his good Master and acts according to the Masters Word and example. He who has an ear let him hear.
I have been a spiritual guardrail for several decades. Being run into, yelled at, disagreed with, called arrogant for standing in the way of someone wanting to drive where they're not suppose to. Still, I'm just where God puts me in life and am generally as dumb as a bunch of posts and a long piece of metal. Yet, the Lord has allowed me to see how He has changed lives as a result just so I don't get disheartened!
I have a special appriciation for the Apostle Paul who was also a guardrail. The tone of 2 Corinthians was to a people who said "who is this Paul to be telling us what to do!" Does God change? Has God removed any of the gifts? Does God say "do it the way you want and I'll sort it out"? No. He gave us His clear instructions that showed His compassion and love for people. He showed the action of correcting bretheren. As I said, if there was a more private way to have addressed igh I would have done it.
As a Christian who believes homosexuality is wrong I view Mike as just one more person looking for love in all the wrong places. His sin is no 'worse' than mine, yours or igh's. Most Jews knew the Scriptures when Jesus died. It was His death and being raised that changed lives...not beating them with Scripture.
"I wouldn't approve of it myself but yet God uses it."
God always uses what He chooses.
With that said, the goal is to shed what we approve or disapprove of for Jesus' perspective. The sermon today was clear on Jesus' perspective... compassion and restoration. Do you not understand that you, igh or I could just as easily be in the trap Mike is? Would you want a hand out or just have a bunch of Scripture quoted at you. Please print this thread out and give it to your Pastor. Ask him for his insight.
"You are not the standard of the Christian community on how to minister to people. You seem to have an attitude that you are. Is that not prideful?"
Pride says "I'm not going to get run over for the sake of some homosexual sinner". So, based on the response I have been getting I would say you have answered your own question.
Was Paul the standard? Was Peter? Was John? Was Timothy? Am I? Are you? There is already a standard for Christian ministry. The Bible is quite clear about beating people over the head. Jesus showed compassion to sinners. He said the well do not need a physician. Are you well? I'm not. I need a savior.
Why was I flagged? I will report whoever is flagging to the administration if necessary. Igh was flagged not for his content, but for spamming multiple boards. I have not violated any terms of service.
Daniel Paul
God can use just reading scripture alone to bring a person who is in rebellion against God back to a right relationship with Him. I know because He did it with me many years ago. Don't sell short using scripture alone.
You may not view igh's approach as being from God. He does. Let God be igh's judge. Pray for him and his ministry. If God doesn't like what igh is doing then let God deal with him about it.
There may be other people who are new to CP that are just now reading the conversation. How do you know that God won't use igh's approach with them?
You don't have to read igh's stuff. Just skip it if you don't like his approach. If it bothers you or Mike2685 then maybe there is something wrong with you. Maybe each of you need to examine your own hearts to see if there is something wrong in your own life.
I read stuff from people and it seems like that they are spamming their stuff on each article that is about the same topic. I get tired of their soap box too. I just ignore it.
You are not the standard of the Christian community on how to minister to people. You seem to have an attitude that you are. Is that not prideful?
I am not saying that igh's approach is of God. He believes that it is. I am not saying that your approach is of God either. But you seem to think that it is.
igh will stand or fall in his approach before God and so will you.
One thing I have noticed on CP is that the people who pray for the people they minister too are the ones who God uses the most regardless of the method. I have seen their methods and I wouldn't approve of it myself but yet God uses it. God works through prayer. God uses imperfect people. I am not perfect. You are not perfect. Igh is not perfect. God can use igh, He can use you, and maybe even use me on occassion. Don't criticize. Pray instead.
Hi, Grace2. I find it very odd to be comming to Mikes defense here since he and I really don't agree on much of anything.
Here's the point. igh copies and pastes the same thing on several different threads with no real tie in to the thread. Sometimes people get off on a personal blog with each other and that happens.
Still, he spoke of 'whooping' people with the Bible. This is not a Biblical attitude. It treats the word of God like a blunt object.
I have no problem with anyone bringing Scripture into a thread...but do tie it in somehow! I have worked in and around the ministry for over 30 years and even I don't always understand what igh is trying to say!
Jesus always explained his application of Scripture didn't he? That's the point I've been trying to make with igh. From their post we really don't know anything about them other than they like to argue (whoop).
Mike2685
I flagged you because I am tired of your whining about igh posting the scriptures. His posts don't shut down any dialogue. If you don't want to read it then skip it. Skip all his posts for that matter if you don't like his point of view.
You are on your soap box too with you gayness. People can get tired of you too you know.
Everybody at one time or another gets tired of someone else's soap box. Just ignore the person and move on to the next poster's input. You don't have to read or carry on a converstaion with every poster you know.
"Love your neighbor as yourself"
It's a good goal Mike. Here's my issue. The first command is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind. This means to conform Christ.
To love my neighbor as myself is a horizontal response to a vertical relationship based on Him being in charge and calling the shots. He was quite clear on many issues including homosexuality.
Don't get me wrong...I'm just as tough on people who speed or cheat on their taxes. Sin is sin. Accepting God's love means conforming to the image of His Son which is perfection in Christ.
"The old things have passed away, behold, new things have come."
1Co 3:16 Surely you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you!
1Co 3:17 God will destroy anyone who destroys God's temple. For God's temple is holy, and you yourselves are his temple.
1Co 3:18 You should not fool yourself. If any of you think that you are wise by this world's standards, you should become a fool, in order to be really wise.
1Co 3:19 For what this world considers to be wisdom is nonsense in God's sight. As the scripture says, "God traps the wise in their cleverness";
1Co 3:20 and another scripture says, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are worthless."
2Co 6:14 Do not try to work together as equals with unbelievers, for it cannot be done. How can right and wrong be partners? How can light and darkness live together?
2Co 6:15 How can Christ and the Devil agree? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
2Co 6:16 How can God's temple come to terms with pagan idols? For we are the temple of the living God! As God himself has said, "I will make my home with my people and live among them; I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
2Co 6:17 And so the Lord says, "You must leave them and separate yourselves from them. Have nothing to do with what is unclean, and I will accept you.
2Co 6:18 I will be your father, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
2Co 5:17 Anyone who is joined to Christ is a new being; the old is gone, the new has come.
2Co 5:18 All this is done by God, who through Christ changed us from enemies into his friends and gave us the task of making others his friends also.
2Co 5:19 Our message is that God was making all human beings his friends through Christ. God did not keep an account of their sins, and he has given us the message which tells how he makes them his friends.
2Co 5:20 Here we are, then, speaking for Christ, as though God himself were making his appeal through us. We plead on Christ's behalf: let God change you from enemies into his friends!
Jas 4:4 Unfaithful people! Don't you know that to be the world's friend means to be God's enemy? If you want to be the world's friend, you make yourself God's enemy.
James, the biggest thing I fight for in society is Love your neighbor as yourself, and do unto others as you would have done to you. Plain and simple. I love myself with all my heart, I love my partner with all my heart, and when I see how perfect the love between my partner and I is, I reflect on how great God's love must be for me, and that is truly unfathomable. I then try to live in that love to other people, which is why I work in a poor school.
Mike
as a believer I am sure you understand what I am saying, is there something you believe the Bible says that you will fight for in society?
the problem comes from if we say nothing or do nothing to protect what the Bible says, we are essentially condoning the behavior we are told not to do. You are asking Christians to give up because there are gay people all around, that is like asking us not to incarcerate thieves or murderers, it is considered all sin to us. Please do not think I want to incarcerate you. Even with adultry, there is penalty because if it is proven during a divorce, the other spouse usually ends up with what they want.
I wasn't saying you have to be a Christian to post here, but the site is geared so that Christians and non-christians can have dialogue about relevent issues. If you address an issue here expect to hear what people think the Bible says and how that is relevent to your life as well as mine. Do not take me wrongly. I stated what I feel the Bible to say. I am not one to hate anyone for their sin, but I will not say it is ok either. I do have friends that are homosexual, who clearly understand what I think about homosexuality, but I don't cast hate upon them. In fact we have a lady friend who is that way, that we love to death that comes to our home qiute often and family functions. However, when it comes to society Christians also have a right to have their voices heard.
I do believe in Jesus and I have read the Bible. The thing is, posting Bible verses that I have seen many times before does nothing but shut down dialogue. That's the equivalent of a toddler putting their fingers in their ears and screaming "La la la!" If you want to talk with me, do that, but use your own ideas! You can reference the Bible, but please don't copy and paste the text. I've seen it before, its not necessary to show it to me again as if that will magically change me after 23 years.
YOU believe same sex marriage is immoral, but my marriage in no way effects you, at all. Regardless of whether I can marry, I can still move in next door to you with my partner and it will be "in your face" although I don't really get that whole concept. If I get married, it stimulates the economy, and that's about it. Whether I'm married or not, there are gays in the media, there will be children in your children's classrooms that have a gay parent, and you will have gay coworkers. Not allowing marriage between men or women won't make homosexuality suddenly disappear. If you disapprove, that's fine, but there's no reason to stop my marriage because you have a personal problem with it.
"This is a Christian posting site...."
No, James, this is an Internet Web site provided by "The Christian Post." Did you think everyone had to sign up as a Christian in order to make comments?
"Also, civil marriage is in no way Biblical, so religion shouldn't really be a factor in it."
Religion disagrees with immorality regardless if you believe that civil marriage isn't Biblical, the same sex together is immoral.
If someone fails morally on something, that does not mean he can not contribute positively to the issue. God say's to repent and it will be forgiven, change your ways, and help others in the same area in which you learned from.
"James, come up with a new idea please. The Biblical vomit is getting quite old."
This is a Christian posting site, if you post here and invoke God's name you will get a response that is Biblical. If you are a beleiver you would not think it is vomit, but insight to a way of biblical thinking if you agree with it or not
James, come up with a new idea please. The Biblical vomit is getting quite old.
mike
"Yes, men and women can multiply, but God makes no mistakes, and at no point did I ever choose my sexual orientation. It may have happened after I was born at some point, but my feeling is that is must be rooted in biology. How or why would anyone choose persecution? "
This is called sin. You see since the fall of man in the garden, all off us have a desire to sin. to say you are born with a desire for men is correct, just as some have a desire to steal, cheat on spouse, murder, etc.. However, the bible says we still have a choice to not sin. So even if you are born that way you have a choice. Christ says take up our cross daily to follow me.
"As for the story, this is the US Census. Therefore, it would have to be done from a federal point of view and not a state point of view."
Correct again, Daniel. The federal law will change.
Please stay in that lane.
"'I don't have to "justify" everything.' Actually, you do if you are claiming what you are saying is what God believes. If you are claiming this is a Christian position that you are presenting then it will need to be found in the Bible."
Correct, Daniel - in your opinion and as far as you, yourself, are concerned. You (and your brand of "God") have no authority over others. Do you really understand that? Not that it matters, actually, since so few are listening to you, anyway. Just 144,000, I guess.....
Good 11:34 comment, Daniel.
Calvinism has died out (mercifully) everyplace except among the lunatic far right. I think John Calvin understood what he was talking about. Whether any of his immediate successors "got" what he meant, I'm not sure. I know that John Knox and Oliver Cromwell and Cotton Mather and Hiram Bingham took Calvin's ideas and made a lot of people feel guilty and miserable for long periods. Still, much good came out of these Puritan ideals. I'm just glad it's over!
Hmm, perhaps I'm not expressing myself correctly...DOMA is a joke because the last thing Clinton ever tried to do was defend marriage! Its not so much the morals of it as the fact that he clearly didn't give a rat's behind about his marriage, so why did he care about trying to stop mine? That makes no sense...at all...
Daniel, I didn't follow your posting to me at all. Could you clarify?
As for the story, this is the US Census. Therefore, it would have to be done from a federal point of view and not a state point of view. Unless same sex marriage gets the federal Okee dokee then the federal gov cannot count same sex marriage as marriage.
It's just the way law and gov work.
"I don't have to "justify" everything." Actually, you do if you are claiming what you are saying is what God believes. If you are claiming this is a Christian position that you are presenting then it will need to be found in the Bible. To not do so is like saying something is Constitutional when the Constitution clearly states the contrary. Ex. saying Freedom of Speach is limited to what is politically correct. That would make our freedom subject to an ideology.
As for my kind of Christian...that would be someone who is not conformed to this world but is transformed by the renewing of their minds. The world says Gay is OK. I will not conform. I accept God's definition of where the road is and drive my life in a manner to 'keep it in the lane'.
First, let me say how shocked and amazed I am that both sides of the isle agreed on the defense of marriage act.
Hi, Mike! If moral failures were a reason for something being a joke then the court ruling legalizing gay marriage in CA is a joke. After all, if moral failings were the criteria then who in this country could we allow to make any rulings or laws?
This is the point of the Gospel. There is no one perfect other than Jesus. Your point is why we Christians rely on what is in His word as the source of what is right and true.
As for you being nice, normal guys... I have always believed the term normal to be somewhat subjective. Just because I view myself as normal doesn't mean anyone else does (and everyone who knows me would say 'AMEN TO THAT!' lol). Seriously, I don't think sexual orientation determines if a person is nice or not.
Sin is an action or a state of being. Christians sin and are 'recovering sinners'. Non-Christians are simply sinners. It sounds like you have some 'christians' around you who don't see themselves as 'totally depraved' as the Calvanists would say. I was in a church where the pastor was Calvanist. I once asked him why he viewed himself as 'less totally depraved' then someone he had a problem with. After all, in God's eyes we are all just as bad except for Christ.
This doesn't mean I don't believe what your doing is bad for you in the eyes of God. It does mean that those who love you are going to be more concerned that you see God's point of view than their own.
I meant: Not really, february (rather than believer). I don't have to "justify" everything. (This suits us all, really, since your kind of believer doesn't want to be around me, and my kind certainly does not care to be around you.) (But I think I could enjoy being around believer.)
"Is it just biology that those male organs fit into the female organs to reproduce? Was that a mistake?"
Is it a mistake that the male organ also fits inside another male? I'm with "str8notnarrow." How can some heterosexuals be so ignorant of how different people perform sexually? Most of us make our decisions based on what "appeals" to us personally. This has no bearing on what "appeals" to other people. But we persist in our ignorant ideas of what is "right" or "God given."
They are organs that have the capability to reproduce. If someone is infertile, do they lose their sexual orientation? Of course not. The ability to have sex does not determine one's sexual orientation.
so what does the word "reproductive" mean to you then?
Sexual orientation is not determined by your reproductive organs.
Mike, you are correct saying that God does not make mistakes but he did choose your sexual oriantation when he gave you male organs. Is it just biology that those male organs fit into the female organs to reproduce? Was that a mistake?
february...the best I have ever seen was the movie "For the Bible Tells Me So" which talks very openly and honestly about homosexuality in the Bible. I would urge you and all Christians to watch it, if nothing else to have a dialogue about it afterwards. Yes, men and women can multiply, but God makes no mistakes, and at no point did I ever choose my sexual orientation. It may have happened after I was born at some point, but my feeling is that is must be rooted in biology. How or why would anyone choose persecution?
Also, exactly who does my being gay hurt? I don't mean in terms of maybe offending or someone saying "that's a shame." Am I going out and beating people? Am I scarring children for life by molesting them? Am I abusive to my partner?
Here is the thing Mike, the bible does not have to say "homosexuality" or anything like that in order for a God follower to know that God created man and woman for each other in order to multiply. God's ultimate desire is for us to come to know Him and further His Kingdom. We must reproduce in order to do this, do you agree?
You also stated that gay relationships hurt no one, this is your opinion of which I disagree.
Serious question...How well do you understand the original texts? Please use some references that indicate the bible never condemned homosexuality. I am anxious to hear.
February, I look at the Bible in context. Every verse written about homosexuality added the word in (as there was no such word when the Bible was written) and it always referred to Pagan ritualistic orgies. The Bible condemns any sort of sex that could be harmful to a person, and the writers of the Bible never really encountered gay couples as being in a committed relationship. Now, there are thousands of gay couples who love each other just as a man and woman do, and I think the legal protections given the the government should be given to gay couples, since they are tax paying, law abiding citizens whose private life hurts no one. Also, civil marriage is in no way Biblical, so religion shouldn't really be a factor in it.
If your a believer it does....
This is a general remark, not directed just to february: Every human impulse does not need to be "justified biblically." Grow up.
ID reminds me of Archie Bunker, who said, "I like black people. I just don't like to shake their hands."
Mike, just out of curiosity how do you justify gay "marriage" biblically. I would like to know your answer and not someone elses.
ID, Clinton had more than a problem, he had quite a few, and they all came forward. For him to try and "defend" an institution he clearly mocked with his numerous affairs is what makes is laughable. Stop trying to make the gays sound crazy, you, in turn, make yourself look worse. I have plenty of morals. I do strive for what's right. I have to laugh, not in the face of God, but in the face of people who claim to love me, but with their words, cast me down and call me wicked when they don't even know me or my partner. We're actually very nice, normal guys, believe it or not!
Let me see if I have this right. Mike2685 thinks the Defense of Marriage Act is a joke because the President who signed it had moral failures. Since all people have moral failures, are all of our laws jokes to Mike? Are we to be totally lawless because those who sign the laws have moral failures in their personal lives? What flawed reasoning! The point is this: The Bible, God's Holy Word, recognizes marriage as only between a man and a woman. Man can't change that. Man's ideas never trump God's Word. God is Sovereign.
Sometimes you really sound possessed, igh.
Yes, Clinton was a real role model for heterosexual marriage. Gay people could hardly do worse.
"Pro-family" groups are foolish to be encouraged by this. That's a very slender reed for support.
Of course, the census bureau cannot include same-sex marriages until they are legal under federal law. That won't take long, the way things are going.
I would refuse to be counted if they will refuse to see that I do, in fact, have a family. How insulting, and not just to gay families. How many mixed "families" do we have today? This is a problem, because as states are legalizing gay marriage, the federal government will need to decide on what to do. Yes, these couples are, in fact, married legally. You cannot argue that they are not married just because you disagree with it, they have a marriage certificate, so they are married. It goes without saying DOMA is a joke to begin with seeing as how Clinton signed it: wow, there is a man who upheld the virtues of marriage to the fullest!