Updated 12:47 pm.EST, Sun November 22, 2009

World|Fri, Jul. 18 2008 03:55 PM EDT

Thousands See Reenactment of Jesus' Crucifixion

By Kristen Gelineau|Associated Press Writer

SYDNEY, Australia - A recreation of the crucifixion and last days of Jesus played out against the backdrop of some of the city's most famous landmarks Friday, as an actor playing Christ was strung upside down, dragged through the streets and eventually "nailed" to a cross.

  • cross
    (Photo: AP Images / Rick Rycroft)
    The final scenes from the Stations of the Cross are played out at Barangaroo in Sydney, Friday, July 18, 2008. The Stations of the Cross, where actors recreate the biblical account of Jesus Christ's final days, has 13 acts in total and will be played out at sites across the inner city.

Pope Benedict XVI, in Sydney for the Roman Catholic Church's World Youth Day festival, offered a prayer before the grim three-hour performance, known as the stations of the cross. The pope attended the first act, a live recreation of The Last Supper, at St. Mary's Cathedral in downtown Sydney.

Hundreds of thousands of pilgrims lined the city's streets, many weeping openly along with Alfio Stuto, a 27-year-old advertising professional from Sydney who took on the role of Jesus.

Crowds of faithful jammed the steps of the Opera House and watched as the nearly naked actor was strung up by his feet, his body swaying slightly in the chilly wind. Stuto's face contorted in mock agony as men portraying Roman soldiers jammed a crown of thorns onto his head before forcing him to shoulder a giant wooden cross. Stuto then boarded a boat and sailed under the landmark Sydney Harbor Bridge to a waterfront site where he spoke to actors portraying the women of Jerusalem.

Pilgrims watched the crucifixion scene solemnly as darkness fell, some clutching each other for comfort and wiping away tears. As Stuto's limp, bloodied body was brought down from the cross and taken away, they broke into applause.

The reenactment had a uniquely Australian tone, with an Aboriginal man wearing a kangaroo skin and body paint taking the cross from Stuto to the strains of the didgeridoo.

Organizers said they expected 500 million people across the world to watch the television broadcast of the performance, which featured 100 actors.

Despite the dark subject matter, 19-year-old Alice Neville of Nottingham, England, said seeing the suffering Christ endured played out so dramatically was deeply moving.

"It's totally different to being in church," Neville said as she watched the crucifixion. "It's ... goosebumpy."

Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    act11:17 tells us that Peter witness others recieve the Spirit just as he did
    John 16: 5-15 tells us the Spirit guides our judgment(discerning Truth) I think you are confusing recieving Truth that the disciples got from the Spirit in in order to spread it to us, in which the spirit guides our judgement to know Truth from teachers and scripture following the departure of the apostles.
    1 john 2:26-27 after talking about decievers and the anti-christ reassures us that we will be able to discern truth for ourselves by the spirit without teaching.

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris, I am very content being in the center of God's will for my life at this time so why would I want to be any where else but there since there is no better place to be and as a matter of fact tomorrow I leave to go be a counselor at a camp for kids whose Mom or Dad is in trouble because of substance abuse and I am looking forward to seeing how God is going to use me at this camp. Plus how do you know I'm not a better saint than the ones you mentioned and in fact what others think of my life doesn't matter anyways it only matters what God thinks of the way I lived my life and to be honest my only desire is to live my life in such a way that when I die and appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ, that Christ will say to me, well done my good and faithful servant. But that will be entirely God's call and no one elses.

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Believer,

    Do you have the chance to be saved as any Catholic? Yes. Does your life as a Saint compare to those like St. Brigid, St. Dominic and St. Francis. No. Does this mean their salvation is more than yours'? No.

    What I am saying is that because you don't have the Sacraments with actual Grace within them and not just mere symbols, you are limited to the amount of work and the greatness of your witness for God.

    Believer, you could be so much more for God if you came home. You love scriptures so much and that would only add to your gifts if you received the REAL sacraments which are tools of God's Grace.

    The more access to Grace you have the more you can live in God's will and do more for His Glory. Protestants are not second class Christians at all. They are just limited because of the Grace they reject which is only available in Christ Church.

    Here is an analogy to think of. Take two people of equal size and strength. Feed one of them the best organic food, highly oxygenated water and give them supplements for protein and vitamins. Take the other one and give them only regular food with no supplements. At the end of one year who will be in better shape internally if both excersize the same way? There is no comparison. The first person has better health because of what he puts in it.

    You are no different. Put more Grace into your life through the Sacraments and see how your life will change for the better.

  • Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    James,

    But those who eat HIS FLESH AND DRINK HIS BLOOD have life. You don't eat his flesh or drink his blood do you?
    "For my flesh is food indeed" "I am the Bread of Life".

    The fact is God gave us many gifts and they all are important;Bible, Church, Sacraments, Morality, Church Hiearchy, laity, etc. You say that you are the bible alone, but you are not since the Bible is not self attesting. You are Bible plus your own interpretation. You can't help but interpret. This is why God gave only certain power to discern Truth to specific men.

    I'm sure the Holy Spirit works in your life or otherwise you wouldn't love God and have faith in Christ, but not all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to you. The gift to know ALL TRUTH, not just some truth was given to His Apostles, then to Bishops, through the laying of hands it was transmitted. You didn't get the laying of hands, so you do not have this authority or gift.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:13 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Msnchris70 said: "Try reading a book on the Saints of the Catholic Church. Their witness expounds Christ Truth within their lives." [End quote]

    We need to be careful what we read and who we allow to influence us, lest we end up adopting dangerous beliefs or doctrines. Let's consider St. Bridget:

    "This the blessed Virgin herself revealed to St. Bridget: 'I am,' she said to her, 'the queen of heaven and the mother of mercy; I am the joy of the just, and the gate of entrance for sinners to God'" [End quote from The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus Liguori]

    No matter how one may try to shuffle the word of God, Mary is not the joy of the just, nor the gate of entrance for sinners to God:

    "...For the joy of the Lord is your strength" (Ne 8:10).

    "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Ro 14:17).

    Jesus said, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture" (Jn 10:9).

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    just another perspective
    God told Isereal while it was in the desert to only eat manna. He provided for their physical needs with just one type of food in which he said not to store it up, but that He would provide daily for their needs. HE then gave them a land full of different kinds of foods, in which He told them to never forget who provided for them all those years. Today He provides for our spiritual needs with just Scripture which has in it all things needed for spirituality. he said His word would endure forever and it has in the form of the Bible. He said store it in your hearts and share this with all those you meet. He then will provide us a new earth with all things physical and spiritual. so yes God can provide us physically with one food, and with one book alone He provides for us spiritualy. remember Christ fought satan with scripture only.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Catholics think they deem who saints are, however Christ said that all believers are saints for they are set apart from the rest because the holy spirit dwells in them

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Chris
    yes many books are written for instruction by many pastors and degreed people, however it is with Bible scripture that they reference. I do not read and take direction from secular books. If a pastor wrote a book without clear reference to scripture for all thoughts I would not use it. This would mean in my case Bible alone. To me this would be a sermon in written form.
    I am saved and have the Holy spirit within me and it is the Holy Spirit which helps me to descern Truth. I am commissioned by God as you are to spread the Truth.
    Physical needs and spiritual needs are seperate, and it is God's word only that I need to live spiritually. That is a bad analogy to which I would say the same as Christ, I do not live by bread alone.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:16 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    chris, why do you consider anybody who is not a catholic to be a 2nd class Christian, because the last time I checked the ground at the Cross was level, and the Bible teaches that there is neither Jew or Gentiile, male or female, slave or free, so it appears that in God's eyes all of His children are equal in His sight.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    James,

    Try reading a book on the Saints of the Catholic Church. Their witness expounds Christ Truth within their lives.

    You can't help reading about these Saints and not clearly see what God has done in the Catholic Church. No Protestant Group could ever match this group of Saints who live their lives for God with discipline and Holiness.

    I'm not saying there are not wonderful Saints within Protestantism, but the comparison between Catholic Saints is unmatched. Why? Because Christ lives more fully in these Catholic Saints because they have the fullness of Truth that help them to live these amazing lives. They have the Eucharist, confession and the Mass which Protestants do not have.

    If you have more access to Grace, then you will have the opportunity to live more Saintly.

    I think Protestants do amazing things with the Grace they have, but I think how much more these wonderful people could do if they had available to them the Sacraments of God's Holy Church.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    James,

    Since you are a Protestant, then please use Scripture when you say God says something so I don't just assume that you think you are God and that you are speaking for him. Thanks.

    Only the Bishop of Rome in communion with all the bishops of the world can make the doctrines of faith and morals. If a specific bishop teaches something that is wrong, then he will be discipline. If he doesn't recant, then he will be removed over a period of time for prayer and reconciliation, if possible.

    You are also assuming that Catholics are all just a bunch of Robots who do everything the Priest says and have no education. I hold degrees in Theology, and have read and studied scripture for 40+ years.

    The reason I left being a Reformed Minister is because Protestants do not stick to all of Scripture. They have become an ala Carte version of Christianity. Each denomination picking and choosing what they follow and none of them agree with each other.

    Authority is one of the many things I love about being Catholic.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    James,

    Take your statement to its possible end to see if it makes sense. You will find it is illogical.

    Fruit is profitable for your body, but is fruit ALONE what you need?

    Vegetables are profitable for your body, but are vegetables alone your only source of food?

    Meat is profitable for your body, but is Meat alone your only source of food?

    The Bible is profitable. The Scriptures are profitable for one's life. AMEN! But it is not the only thing that guides our life. Protestants read millions of books by Pastors that teach them things from the Bible and those books are good to read. They also teach things that are not directly from scripture like setting goals, being more financially responsible, etc.

    When Jesus instructed His Apostles he gave them HIS authority over His flock. Jesus put them in charge. It was this same group of men who had authority to write the New Testament Scriptures. It was also these men who were given the power by Christ to forgive or retain sin. It was also these men who Christ gave the power to legislate, discipline and create doctrine. These men gave their authority to other men called Bishops. It was these Bishops who decided how many books belonged in the New Testament and how many Gospels were actually in it.

    The Church hiearchy had the authority by God to decide what went into the Bible. You accept the authority of Scripture, and yet you do not accept the authority of men who were given this authority by God to determine which Scriptures were canonical. You cannot logically accept the authority of Scripture without accepting the authority of the Church that gave it to you.

    None of the scriptures say that they belong in the Bible. There was no index before the Catholic Church decided what books were inspired and what were not.

    You say that you go by the Bible alone, and yet no where in the bible does it tell you to do that. It says scripture is profitable and it is good and useful for reproofing and building up Christians, but no where does it say that it is the only source you should go by.

    You should test all things by Scripture. Yes! You should keep the Traditions the Apostles handed down, and you must obey the Bishops who set doctrine for faith and morals for the Church. The Bishops have a teaching authority given by Christ.

    If you reject the Bishops who have Christ authority, then you reject Christ.

  • Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    James,

    So you are an authority for what God says now? Could you show me where God says you have a right to interpret scripture?

    Also, the bible is profitable but it does not say alone. Only you and old Luther put that in.

  • Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    God says to be aware of false teachers to judge for yourself what is true as it is gridded through the word of God. As cotholics you are told what is true, what power do you have to remove false teachers in the catholic church.. None if the higher ups believe what is wrong then the church follows, you can not go to another church for they all are suppose to contain the same beleifs.

  • Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    The Bible says through out that the teachings of the world are not profitable, therfore when it says all scripture is profitable it is clearly saying only scritpure alone. Since scripture is God's word(2 peter 1:20-21) and he said His word word last forever(1 peter 23-24)(the word endured through the Bible)and his word which is what is preached(1peter 1:25)has to some from the bible then yes it does clearly mean Bible alone

  • Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    chris, please don't tell me what I believe since I don't tell you what you believe as a catholic, I only share what I was taught as a catholic. I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught in the Bible, but the word Trinity can not be found in the Bible. Plus I was responding to a comment made by fullgospel. Plus I can't answer for bro aaron but I do not believe the Bible is the only way God speaks to us, but that if something violates, contradicts, or supersedes God's Word then it is not God and finally I believe many of the teachings of the Catholic Church are extrabiblical teachings and apply to the Catholic Church and others who may feel led of God to follow them, but they are not mandatory practices or beliefs for all Chrisitans. And I also believe that some of them do indeed violate, contradict, and/or supersede the Word of God.

  • Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Believer,

    We are not the ones who hold to the bible alone, so your example of Trinity for us was a poor one. We believe in the TRINITY because our CATHOLIC CHURCH DEFINED it. You accept this Traditional understanding since it is not explicit in scripture. You also accept the incarnation where Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time. Two natures one person is how the Catholic Church defined Jesus, even though it is not explicit in Scripture.

    Do you still go to church on Sunday, celebrate Christmas and Easter and read the Bible, then you my friend accept some of Catholic Tradition. You simply reject the Mass even though this is how the Apostles taught the Bishops to Worship God. The Apostles taught the Bishops the Tradition of how to Worship God in the way God wants it.

    It was not just doctrines that was meant by hold fast to the traditions. Your church wasn't there, so don't claim something you don't know for certain. You are only going with an interpretation that came after the fact. Our interpretation comes from the actual people WHO WERE THERE!

    Again, this is a perenial Protestant Problem. Since your church was not there you have to make up what was meant by the original scriptures. You don't follow our interpretation even thought we were there, because you have rejected the authority established by Christ.

    You reject Jesus if you reject those he put in charge of you.

    You and many others are ala carte Christians. This is not a slam but a fact. You take what you want from the Catholic Church and toss anything out you don't like or that doesn't fit your interpretation. Ala Carte Christianity is another sad form of relativism.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:07 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    fullgospel, do you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, if you do I guess you've got a problem since you won't find that word in the Bible either. What difference does it make if you call it the Bible, the Word of God, or the Holy Scriptures, the important thing is that we believe that in it's original autographs it is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God which is not to be added to or taken away from.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Hey brotheraaron, peace to you. If you're holding to the "book alone" theory, then I'm sure you don't use the word "Bible" to describe "the book," because the word Bible isn't in the Bible. That's an extra-Biblical tradition that all Christians accept, even you. Peace.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    The Thessalonians were being exhorted to hold fast the traditions they had been taught - doctrines and gospels. These had to have been delivered by the apostle. None of these would have been in addition to what we have as the gospel today. At this time, the canon wasn't even complete, therefore whatever was delivered by the apostles had to have been under the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit. Christians were then bound to these doctrines as though they had come directly from God. Now that the canon is complete, there is absolutel no argument for regarding any oral traditions. Whatever doctrines they had traditionally adhered to at the time could not have been in conflict with the Scriptures then or now. There is no evidence to support that extra-Biblical teaching was traditional. When it became a tradition, the apostle Paul would usually make it very, very clear that they were separating themselves from God.
    It was Bible alone then, and Bible alone now. Sola Scriptura wasn't some modern dogma. Christians have been living by the very inspired writings of God since the book of Job...

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    James, welcome to the Board.

    By the way, you won't find anywhere in the Bible where it says to go by the Bible ALONE, but you will find a lot of verses in Scripture that says that scripture is useful. You will find a lot of scripture verses that say to "hold fast to the Traditions" 1 Cor 11:2, 2Thess 2:15, 1Thes 3:6, 2 Tim 2:2.

    The early church always believed that it was the Scriptures plus Tradition handed down by the Apostles and it was the role of the Church hiearchy to establish doctrine, discipline and legislate on behalf of Christ. Bishops, Priests and Deacons are the Servants of God's people and the Bishop is in charge for a specific area, but the Bishop of ROME is also in charge of the Universal Church of Christ by the power of the "KEYS".

    Read the Early Church Fathers like Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement, Irenaus with your Bible and you will see that these men who were taught by the Apostles were Catholic to the CORE.

    Best wishes on this board.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Sure, from Deut 8:3
    He therefore let you be afflicted with hunger, and then fed you with manna, a food unknown to you and your fathers, in order to show you that not by bread alone does man live, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of the LORD.
    This is backed up by Jesus in Matt Chapter 4

    But as we all know, words can be spoken or read.

    2 Tim 3:16
    All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness
    or from another version -
    All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice,

    But this only says that scripture is useful for teaching & rebuking. Kind of like a tool, but not the final authority. Yet we are told that it's the Church which holds all truth. Which Church?

    1 Tim 3:15
    so that if I am delayed, you will know how people must conduct themselves in the household of God. This is the church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth. Which Church?

    Which church do you suppose he was talking about?
    And we are told to Stand Firm on the traditions that were taught to us (notice the words Stand Firm on the Traditions). What Traditions? Which Church?

    2 Thes 2:14
    So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

    So, Mr. James Reynolds, you'll have to show me where it says "bible alone"

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It must seem confusing, but in answer to your earlier question, truth is, each diocese is to hold exactly to Rome. Each parish is to follow exactly. Those that don't are not part of the Church.

    But, pride gets in the way. You see these little groups; women who want to ordain as priests, catholics for "choice", catholics who support homosexuality, etc. Just know that these are not official, and in fact they have ex-communicated themselves from the Church, i.e. they are in no way, shape, or form part of the Church. They are on their own and have no right or authority to use the name Catholic. Do not be fooled by these groups, they are not part of the Church.

    Yet these hasn't been excommunicated from the church and still are property of the Vatican.

    "there is no place in the Bible that even implicitly says that we should base all our beliefs on the Bible alone. The key word is "Alone"."
    revelations states he so ever addeth or taketh away from this will be dealt with. Christ said that scripture was suffecient for life.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Tall Guy...welcome! You will find here that the treads sometimes get woven just a bit. :-) It's an artistic tapestry kind of thing....

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:29 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    james, you were following the direction of the posts which in many if not most cases are a different subject matter of the article. You keep responding as God leads you. But it could be your stepping on some toes that don't want to be stepped on.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tallguy,
    how was I out of line with my post since it was my first in this forum and I followed the example of the post set by those of you discussing church history(you) and baptsim.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:41 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "Thousands see idolatry in the form of "man" attempting to portray Christ. Blasphemy."

    Now, now...it's called theater. That's like saying translating the Bible into other languages is 'adding to' when the Revelations specifically say not to. It takes more words in English than it does in Greek.

    I call it sharing the Gospel.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris, you're right water baptism is not required for a person to enter heaven, case in point the thief on the cross. Your reference to John 3:5 was talking about physical birth and spiritual birth and not about baptism. Your Mark 16:16 talked about baptism in conjunction with someone making a profession of faith and being baptised and no where once again have you found a verse of scripture that states we are to baptize infants or that water baptism alone can save a person. As Southern Baptists we teach that water baptism is the first command given by God to every new believer, that it follows a person making a profession of faith and that it is not a part of the salvation process. We believe that water baptism is important, but because there are to many verses in the Bible such as Ephesians 2:8-9 and the Roman Road passages that do not include water baptism as a requirement then water baptism is not required for a person to be saved. But as I have said before we do not consider it as a point of fellowship with those denominations who do.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:43 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Tallguy1000 - James Reynolds may be off topic in regard to the article but not in regard to the topics that msnchris70 has brought up on this thread.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:33 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Thousands see idolatry in the form of "man" attempting to portray Christ. Blasphemy.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    James Reynolds .... yawn....

    How'd you get off topic? I thought the topic of this thread is "Thousands See Reenactment of Jesus' Crucifixion". I'm confused...

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It is oK brotheraaron, mistakes are made.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    oops I didn't mean to flag star... it was only a message to me anyway.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:18 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    The Catholic church was not founded by Christ for he sent out his apostles to spread the Truth and to form new churchs(place to worship God), in every city they ministered to. There is only one True church and that is called the body of Christ which to all believers are a part of that are in different places to worship. There is heirarchy in each place of worship, but not in a universal setting in which Catholics make it. Christ is the ultimate head of His church not the Pope.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Tallguy1000 - The topic on infantile baptism came about because msnchris70 made the following statement to brotheraaron on his Tues Jul 22,2008 7:24pm post: "The Baptists position on infant baptism is unbiblical and denies that all need saving."

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    How'd we get onto baptism again? I thought the topic of this thread is "Thousands See Reenactment of Jesus' Crucifixion". I'm confused...

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:07 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    ...continued...

    4) Households were baptized - does that mean infants - no. Do the Scriptures point to baptism being a covenantal relationship - NO (note he provides no scripture for that statement). Do all Scriptures point to original sin (I don't like that term a lot but we can use it), yes. Must we be washed clean? YES - but not by water, by the blood of Christ, not by works of our own hands but by the power of God - not by covenant but by faith. (You're now introduced to "covenant theology" instead of our "dispensationalism" - welcome to theology).

    5) Romans 6:3-5, this person seriously misunderstands the Scriptures and basics of interpretation - let alone "logic". We know that infants and young children are safe from destruction should they die. We have the example of the child of David and Bathsheba in the OT and we have Jesus' interactions and speeches regarding children in the NT. Thus we have an "age of accountability" so to speak, but when children grow into adulthood or reach maturity, they like everyone else are required to make a personal decision, will you be washed or no? Will you take God at his word or will you reject Him and live following the 'god of this world'. Will you take God at His word...

    Eph.2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
    v.9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

    v.11 "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;"
    v.12 "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"
    (here it comes)
    v.13 "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

    Clearly, not from baptism, not from works, but from the washing of our sin by the blood of Christ are we brought nigh - by grace, through faith nothing else...

    ________________________________________________________
    This is not my own writing. It comes from the Pastor of our Church. It has been abridged.

    In prayer and love,

    Brother Aaron

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:07 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Believe it or not, these are ancient objections to Believer's Baptism, it's the same old argument. It's the basic justification for the practice of infant baptism - if they didn't have some obscure Scriptural reference they probably wouldn't still be doing it - in the same way they would argue for transubstantiation - "Jesus said, "this IS my body.."" is that tired old argument. Infant baptism and it's "Scriptural support" is the same deal.

    1) Yes, we deny that baptism is required for entering heaven - Jn.3:5 - "born of water" is natural birth, Jesus is here contrasting the natural birth (which Nicodemus had) with the spiritual birth (which he did not as of yet have), born of water gives you life in this world, born of the spirit, life in the next. Mk.16:16 actually proves our point - "He that believeth and is baptised..." belief MUST come first. We don't say that baptism is irrelevant, but that it is a human publication of our God-given new life. This is abundantly clear in the case of Philip and the eunuch, against which there is no argument Acts 8:27-37 (esp.36,37) (Think also of the thief on the cross who was saved by the mouth of Jesus - wasn't baptized)

    2) Yes, the Scriptures affirm that baptism is NOT a replacement for circumcision. Col.2:11-12 refers to the fact that we have circumcision of the heart (brought into a covenant relationship) NOT with hands (by nothing that we do), and that this was shown through our sharing with Christ in Believer's Baptism, this is related to this more detailed and doctrinal reference in Romans 6:3-15 which clearly proves our point.

    3) Our view of baptism is exclusive - Yes, because the Gospel is exclusive - to all those who believe in Christ, to the exclusion of everyone else. The gift (not promise) of salvation is open and available to everyone, but it is conditional - upon faith in Christ and His shed blood on the cross. Even OT circumcision was conditional, in that they needed to keep the law or they would not be held blameless.

    continued...

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You are right wbmoore. My flesh has gotten in the way.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Everyone needs to take a breath and stop reacting.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:41 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    Tallguy - There are many other Protestants that preach a similar or the same message as I do. Some of them are wbmoore, Prophet, believer, Online4Him, Quecat, swordbearer, Wilderness1, brotheraaron, mathetes, and igh. I have never heard, though maybe you have and I just didn't see it, you call anything they have written against the teachings of the RCC as "mindless rants". How come? They preach the same or a similar message as I do.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:40 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    You guys see star2 differently than I. I see confidence in God, and His word, and a distrust of anything that contradicts either. I think her confidence is well placed. God places leaders in our lives, without doubt. However, just as without doubt, the final authority is God, not man. Men can be wrong. I can be wrong, as can you, as can star2. Because of this, everything taught by men must be verified against the Scriptures (just as the Bereans did). If what is being taught goes against scripture, we must agree with Scripture, not man.

    I find her research to be accurate. I have yet to see her post anything that is not a plausible reading of Scripture - regardless of whether it is considered in the mainstream. We all belong to different denominations/churches because we do not agree with the interpretations of other denominations/churches. This does not place them outside the pale of orthodoxy.


    We should ALL be able to say the Holy Spirit guides us. If we can't then something is wrong with our relationship with God.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:38 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    This is getting out of hand! It is one thing to make a defense of the scriptures, but quite another to take it in a direction that this is going. Remember, forgiveness is a commandment.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:24 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    IHS, msnchris70

    John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, which is the HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

    John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, is come, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

    1 John 2:27 - "But the anointing (Holy Ghost) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and YE NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."


    I live by these scriptures. Massive ego because I take God at His Word and seek Him for understanding of the Word of God? You all would do well if you did the same.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:02 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    IHS - It is so sad that the cemetary you go to to get educated in the Word of God is so inflitrated with deceived professors who don't know the different between false teaching and truth.

    You claim to be called to be a Pastor. You have shown no proof of it. Some emotional high you got in Israel doesn't prove that you were called to be a Pastor. FYI, you won't be one either. You are too young and immature in the Lord for any Church to call you to be a Pastor. The best you can be is a Youth Leader. Based on what I see coming from you, good luck at even that. I pity the poor congregation that gets you in any kind of ministry.

  • IHS »
    Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I most assure you I am going nowhere." Words from Star2.

    This is true.

  • IHS »
    Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Star2,

    I am a non-denominational seminarian. I think that you incite dislike toward you because of your attitude. You always say that you use the Word of God and say that God directs you. Show me the proof? A Catholic, Lutheran or a non-denominational could say the exact same thing.

    You are belligerant towards fellow Christians. I haven't seen any name calling in a while. Your ego is too large for just one person is a fact.

    Tallguy and Msn,

    Just don't respond to her. She is in a world of her own making and there is not that many people in it.

    I now understand why the Mormon and Jehovah Witness Churches started. You find someone from a fundamentalist background, who is led by something other than the Holy Spirit add a bunch of ego to it and there you go. Seventh Day Adventists would be in this bunch too.

    Normally I would flag you Star2, but I think it is important for people to see how "OUT to Lunch" you are.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    So then Star, are you calling yourself Jesus?

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:14 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Tallguy - Maybe a lot of people don't like me but then many of the religious people of the Jesus' day didn't liked him either.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Good morning wbmoore.

    It must seem confusing, but in answer to your earlier question, truth is, each diocese is to hold exactly to Rome. Each parish is to follow exactly. Those that don't are not part of the Church.

    But, pride gets in the way. You see these little groups; women who want to ordain as priests, catholics for "choice", catholics who support homosexuality, etc. Just know that these are not official, and in fact they have ex-communicated themselves from the Church, i.e. they are in no way, shape, or form part of the Church. They are on their own and have no right or authority to use the name Catholic. Do not be fooled by these groups, they are not part of the Church.

    As far as unity, if I attend Mass in Frankfurt today, London, Paris, New York, Los Angeles, or Vancouver BC, it's the exact same. All Catholics are on the same page today. The same readings, the same psalms, the same Gospel verses are spoken. However, the local priest is to prepare his own homily (message) within that Mass.

    Catholics have been reading daily prayers ever since they (the apostles) began this practice as mentioned in the book of Acts. The daily prayers are mostly a reciting of psalms and scripture, beautiful to listen to, soothing to pray. This chain of prayer has gone unbroken for 2000 years. All Catholic bishops, priests, deacons, monks, brothers, sisters, laity (the people) are on exactly the same page today, and this is throughout the world. Talk about powerful! The same prayer prayed to Jesus a million times today by millions of people! Praise God, Amen!

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