Christian metalcore band Haste the Day has asked guitarist Jason Barnes to step down after months of spiritual searching by their close friend concluded with his loss of faith in God.
“This is going to come as a shock to many of you,” the group wrote to fans in their official MySpace page Friday. “After much prayer and thought given to the matter, we asked Jason Barnes to step down from his involvement with Haste the Day.”
In their statement, the seven-year-old band from Indianapolis explained that Barnes had been “searching and searching for real meaning in his existence.”
“After several months of reading literature and talking with friends, Jason had determined that he felt there was no God and certainly no Jesus,” the group revealed.
“We as a band do not have problem with those that do not believe in Jesus, nor do we cast judgement (sic) on those that do not believe in Jesus,” the band continued. “We just want to love on people like Jesus would and hopefully share a little bit about what he's done and doing in our lives.”
However, as the group identifies itself as a Christian band, the remaining band members felt they could not have someone “who didn’t agree with the band’s foundational drive,” even though Barnes was “one of our closest friends.”
Furthermore, the band acknowledged how the difference in belief had created a “tear” in their relationship with Barnes, which they said they are all working on mending.
“Jason's new found disbelief in what the rest of us have committed our lives to began to cause disunity within the band and as a result, we prayed and talked about it and felt like God was saying it wasn't time for Haste the Day to come to an end. [Thus], we asked Jason to leave.”
The now four-member band said they are not looking to replace Barnes with a new guitar player. Their friend, Dave Krysl, will instead be their full-time touring guitar player.
The surprising announcement comes three months before the Oct. 14 release of the band’s next album, “Dreamer,” and only two weeks before the Aug. 1 release of a new song from the album.
Known for its spiritual metal sound, which attracted fans nationwide, Haste the Day has produced albums containing Christian-oriented messages, with lyrics that are often introspective rather than “preachy.”
Its last album, Pressure the Hinges, debuted last year at number 89 on the U.S. Billboard 200, selling about 10,000 copies in its first week.
The band is currently signed with Christian record label Solid State Records.
I have always had a problem when people refer to a form of music as "of the devil". Now don't get me wrong I am not passing judgment on any of you but my inquisitive nature is kicking in. When someone says that anything is "of the devil" I generally it seems to infer that Satan made something horrible to trick us with. Now I know Satan is a deceiver of men but he is limited in power and most certainly not a creator of anything of substance. The best he can ope to do assume that it means the devil is use something of God's creation in an improper or unintended way. Regardless of the form music is a art form that must be learned and refined. All the pieces that make "music" were created by God and were intended for us to use. Now Satan has perverted that and ruined some forms I agree but ultimately the forms belong to God.
I also have wondered about the statement "we shouldnt be copying the world" in regards to the different forms of music. Again it all belongs to God but I think the issue here is that as artists Christians stopped taking the lead long long ago and have left creativity and "pushing the boundaries" up to secular individuals. Christians for far to long have taken second best table scraps on that front.
I would venture to say also that most Christian artists don't play a style of music to be "like the world" but simply play what they know and what they like
Anyway I know I am late to this discussion but those are my thoughts
Star2,
I mostly agree. Some genres/styles seem worse than others for communicating the gospel. Secular metal thrash music seems to emphasize the disharmony, beat, + screaming; it's hard to hear Christian lyrics through the din. For most music, it's the lyrics that make it Christian + edifying.
We will keep our house + let a seminary family live there: not enough housing on campus for the # attending. As we have been blessed, we will be a blessing to others.
My PhD is in Christian Ed, focusing on leadership. Specifically, the pastor's role in managing church conflict. Sadly, no shortage of cases to research!
mathetes - You said that you were working on your dissertation. What kind of degree are you seeking and what is your dissertation on?
mathetes - Thanks for responding. I agree with you to a degree but I think some forms of music is not of God, is disrespectful to God, and is of the devil, such as heavy metal for example.
Music comes from the heart. What kind of heart would produce music like that?
I personally think there is something wrong when a person copies the ways of the world when they become born-again. We are suppose to leave the gods of the world behind not keep them on our altar to worship along with our worship of God. To do so only makes us blind to the truth (Hosea 7:8-9). In my opinion, many Christians worship the demon inspired music they grew up on and that is what drives them to form many of these Christian Rock Bands and what partially drives listeners to want to listen to them. If they don't worship that style of music then they are, at the very least, in bondage to it.
I grew up in the 50's and 60's. If I should overhear someone play the secular music from back then I still like it but I have no interest and desire to entertain myself with that kind of music.
Maybe I am wrong about it but maybe I am not. I am teachable and I will allow God to correct my thinking about the matter of 'Christian' Rock Music.
Star2,
It looks like most everything has been said and the thread is dying out. Only thing I would say is I believe there's room in the Kingdom for music from many cultures. When I led worship in a Presb church, we had many members from other denoms who worshipped with various musical styles, while one family wanted to use the Psalter only. In a multicultural Bapt church we blended southern gospel, black gospel, and contemporary worship music - not easy, but probably what it will sound like in heaven times 1000.
As for personal listening, each Christian should follow his/her own convictions. As Paul wrote in Rom. 14:22, "The faith that you have, have as your own conviction before God. Blessed are those who have no reason to condemn themselves because of what they approve."
Prophet,
You will be missed. I've often been thankful for you + will continue to pray God blesses you + your family as you serve Him.
God bless you Prophet. I understand. I often wondered about you married guys about the amount of time you all spent on CP. I am single and it doesn't much matter. I'll email you. Hope you will answer my email I sent to you the other night. Would like to know about your accident.
prophet, saw your post to star2, just know we'll miss you but I for one totally understand and respect your need to be more with your family and pray nothing but God's will and blessing for you and them. Plus kids only grow up once and you want to miss as little of that as possible, be blessed as you serve Him, believer
Star,
You know I've always respected you. And I know you have a personal conviction about that type of music. I respect that as well. And if we were friends who lived in the same town and fellowshipped together, you can rest assured that I would not listen to that type of music around you because it bothers you. As Paul exhorts us to do.
I hope to be able to email each other yet. I know I've been kind of laxed in that area. Things have been hectic around here. But I am taking a sabbatical from CP indefinitely. In talking to God tonight, I felt that it was taking too much from my family and time with Him. I know you understand. And I am so thankful that God is blessing you and ministering to you as well. I pray His peace, wisdom, and love for you always. Keep in touch.
Prophet - That is good that God is working in your life. May He continue to do so. May God bless you.
I listened to some of the Christian Rock bands you listen to on youtube. Some are kind of mild compared to the metal band and I can see how God could use it in your life. But I still maintain that Christain Rock,on the order of metal, is not of God. I know you don't agree. We are each entitled to our opinions and the reasons for them.
star,
I've done that countless times too. It's okay. We got it figured out. The point I was making with that post, is that I've been listening to this music my whole life, and my relationship with God has grown daily, and He has moved and blessed me in all the areas of my life. But that is not taking away from having a strong prayer life and studying His Word consistently. But music has always been an encouraging source, and God moves in songs that glorify him.
Prophet: "That music you listen to did not bring healing and deliverance to your family."
I didn't say that."
I went back and reread your post and I agree with you.
And....as I've said already, God used that music to encourage me during the hard times, much like He did with David.
"That music you listen to did not bring healing and deliverance to your family."
I didn't say that. But it did strengthen my relationship with God, and boosted my faith in Him, which in turn, allowed God to work as He wills in my life. I hope that you do not the grave sin of attributing the work of the Holy Spirit in my life to Satan. Some would call that the impardonable sin. Be very careful of the words you speak.
I have a friend who thinks that television is of the devil, no matter what you watch on it. His personal conviction is that satan works through the tv to destroy us. I could bring him in here to debate with you about television and that anyone who watches any amount of tv (including your 1/2 hour a day) is allowing satan to havd a foothold.
But he, unlike you, knows that it is a personal conviction. And he doesn't argue with me that I am a sinner for watching tv (though, like you, I only watch educational or sports tv). We are good friends.
I just met a person at work who doesn't have the internet for the same reason. If he could talk to you, he'd probably give you all sorts of statistics to back his beliefs, but you would still continue to come to CP. Because you would call that his opinion. And he would still say that you need to repent.
Is he correct?
Prophet - That music you listen to did not bring healing and deliverance to your family.
I do not dispute the facts of your experiences. I disagree with you on who the author of your experience is. I still maintain that Satan is the author of your 'positive' experiences when you listen to Rock music.
Prophet - Only God can change your mind, I can't. Why continue a discussion with you when you appear to be closed minded at this point and I appear to have no annointing? It is a waste of my time. If you think you won then go ahead and think that. You have won only in the sense I cannot change your mind. But you have not won over truth.
I gave you facts about how the music has affect me, my life, and my family's life. That's not opinion. That's fact. Should I lie that you may win the debate? How ever music affects you is a fact. I will not dispute how that music affects you. How music affects me is a fact, but yet you want to dispute that.
Prophet - Why continue on with a discussion when you are set in your thinking and it appears at the moment that I have no annointing in this subject area. It is a waste of time. Plus, anything I write you misread it and think I said something other than what I meant or you put words in my 'mouth' by saying I said something I didn't say. You interpret my words according to your own presuppositions.
I am not going to change your mind and you will not change mine.
You said that there are some issues in your life that 3 months ago you were perfectly fine with but now you are not because God is dealing with you about them. In time maybe God will do the same with the kind of music styles you listen to. It may be OK now but it might not be OK in the future. He has done it with others, and though I can't speak for Him, He might do it to you too.
Prophet - By 'convictions' I mean what you believe to be true.
Prophet - You are doing the same thing. You merely give an opinion that has no more fact than your personal opinion which is contaminated by sin and lack of knowledge as to the source of your experiences. You don't understand the Word of God, you do not understand demonolgy, you have no spiritual discernment, and you don't know how to properly apply the Word of God. FYI, not everything you hear in prayer comes from God. If something is an idol in your life then God says that when you pray He will allow the idols of your heart to answer you. I believe that is who you are hearing from because in this area of your life, rock music, it is an idol in your life. The same goes for your tattoos.
LOL. It's not convictions. It's proof. And if your way of dealing with proof that your opinions err is by leaving, then so be it. But all I've gotten from this whole debate is that you are making your personal convictions law. And that is not right. But I do appreciate that you've ceded the discussion.
believer
star2 said "He will move on people if that is what He wants to do. But that in no way gives His stamp of approval to everything we do."
Just because God is moving on people in Church for salvation, healing, deliverance, repentance, and etc doesn't mean He approves of the music in the Church. Those things come about because of the preaching of the Word not the music. God will move on people when He wants too.
Prophet - I will not continue to discuss the issue with you. You will either stand or fall on your convictions before God as well as me, believer, wbmoore, and everyone else.
believer - In my posts when I referred to Chritian Rock I was referring to heavy metal and the like. I was not focused on lighter forms of Rock like some of the Christian Rock players play. If you took the percussion section out and played the music just with a simple non-electric guitar you would not consider it Rock.
This is how I respond to 'Christian Rock'
Hard Rock (heavy metal and the like that has a singer who screams like a demonic, there is no melody, the electric guitar and drums are exceptionally loud, and etc): Pure repulsiveness.
Medium Rock (Singer sings normal,melody is good, but the electric guitars and drum beats are exceptionally loud): sends my spirit into turmoil to the point I cannot listen to the lyrics and have to leave.
Light Rock (sings normal to a pleasant melody but has extenuated drums): Bothersome but I can listen for a short while before the loud drum beats over powers everything and I start becoming tormented in my mind.
That may be true. But I know a LOT about the power of God and the victory that He gives me over demons and the spiritual darkness.
But that's not the point. The point is that all the negative stuff you claim that Christian rock does to a Christian doesn't happen to me. And I'm sure there are countless others who have the same testimony. I've been listening to it all my life. So far, my minstry has grown. My relationship with God has grown. My passion for truth and holiness has grown. He has healed my wife, son, and daughter miraculously over the years. And during the tough spiritual battles that I've had, do you want to know the one gift that God gave me that helped keep me strong and focused on Him? The music I listen to.
So, you can spout all the scientific studies about this and that, but I will always have the truth. And you have yet to give me any kind of proof that what you claim is true. Because I listen to that "devil music" and it draws me closer to God. Which goes against all that you claim. Can you please argue that?
believer - When listening to different forms of rock music I found that initailly I was repulsed by it. Just a few seconds of it and I turned it off. As I forced myself to listen to it, over time, even though I didn't like it and would certainly never choose to listen to it, I became numb to the repulsiveness of the music. I believe those who 'like' that stuff at first in their early life were the same way. Do something long enough and Satan will over take you in it, even to the point where you 'like' it and are drawn,and addicted to it.
I rather doubt that your Church has a heavy metal band do the Sunday morning special before the sermon is preached. Some Churches do play music that uses electric guitars, and has drummers that hit their drums so hard as if they have hatred in their heart. I guess some call that Christian Rock. Maybe your Church does, mine does not; all we have is a piano player. I go to a small Church. I did visit a Church once that had music like that. The singers were all mesmerized by the music they were singing. I got up and walked out it was so horrible and wondered why they had no discerment about how they played music and where was God in all of it. The preacher was good but the music stunk. I prayed for the music they sung and the drummer because he was especially bad and God changed them especially the drummer and there music became a lot better. I visited them one more time. Probably very few come to Christ through the music but I have known one who did by hearing the song "It was for your tears I died" played in a non-rock way.
People come to Christ at hearing the gospel preached not through music though God can use it. God will do what He wants to do and even though there are aspects in our worship before Him that is unacceptable to Him He will move on people if that is what He wants to do. But that in no way gives His stamp of approval to everything we do.
Prophet - How little you know about demonology.
star,
You said "Satan can control thoughts, emotions, and bodily functions." No. Satan can only input thoughts into our head, but he can't control how I deal with them. And he certainly cannot read my mind. He cannot control my emotions, only I can. And though he can have an affect on our body, it's only by our permission that he does. The only power satan has is what we give him. And when I listen to my music on my ipod, it takes away all his power over me.
As Jesus said when the Pharisees accused him of working miracles in the name of Satan....a housed divided against itself will not stand.
To think that Satan will allow me to have a postive effect from music that results in a stronger relationship with God, and a more determined attitude to tear down the kingdom of darkness, in order to inslave me is ludicrous. Satan would be shooting himself in the head. He doesn't want me having a deeper relationship with God, and definitely doesn't want me desiring to come against the gates of hell.
But those are the very things that happen when I (as well as millions of other Christians) listen to Christian music of any form. I'm not sure where you're getting your opinions (which is simply what they are) on Christian rock, but maybe you should check your sources.
believer - It is an undeniable fact that rock (heavy metal and the like) music results in nothing but negative effects on plant and animal life. In humans, research has shown that it produces negative effects but it can produce 'positive' effects as well from those who 'like' that kind of music. It was found that voodoo worshippers experience a 'positive' effect when they did a ritural dance to voodoo drum beats.This 'positive' effect, which they described as a 'clean' feeling, came from the 'spirits' they worshipped.
Unlike plants and animals Man is a spirit being that was created to worship God. Since there is a spiritual component to our nature, and since Satan wants man to do that which is unpleasing to God, I believe that the interest in and 'positive' effects that rock has on the listeners who have come to like rock music is from the devil. Satan can control thoughts, emotions, and bodily functions. Unfortunately I know this from personal experience. I believe that he controls these aspects in a 'positive' way in order to enslave people to that ungodly music.
star2, by umbrella I mean putting all "Christian Rock" in one category as you seemed to have done.
star2, to be honest I personally find a lot of classical music to be very dry, I prefer music that is powerful in both its message and presentation. There is much music that does that in both the secular and Christian arena. In my churches I experince both the traditional and contemporary hymns as well as choruses. Usually the messages of the music is powerful and biblically sound, but in many cases the presentation is often found lacking. Either the congregation or the person(s) singing appear not to believe in what they are singing and therfore their presentation has no power. But when there is both power in the message of the song and the presentation of the music not only do I not care what the style of music is but I also believe it brings glory to God. And to be honest star2 I have neither the ability or the time to sit there and determine what formula it fits with regards to the data you have shared with us on this matter. If you have that ability and desire that's great, but in all honesty most Christians even to include those leading and providing the music in most of my churches do not. Their desire is to sing music that they believe glorifies God and will encourage the congregation to freely enter into worship along with them. But yet I'm almost certain they are violating some of the standards you have shared with us in your many posts and yet people are getting saved and lives are being changed and people are experiencing the presence of God in their worship services. That's why I would invite you to consider if your umbrella is to big in this issue.
By the way, star. I took your advice. I asked God what kind of music He likes. He said anything that glorifies Him. So I asked Him if what I listen to pleases him, and he said "yes".
For those who may have missed my earlier post, or may have chosen to ignor it, I will repost it again. This is the effect that Christian Rock has on me, as well as millions of other Christians around the world:
"Spiritual Effects of Christian rock on the body:
The spirit is blessed and uplifted and fed as it worships God. In turn, the body is blessed and prospers. Depression is gone. Anger is gone. Peace and joy is restored, bringing life to a dying body."
believer - I am the one who gave you a 'thumbs down' to your most recent post out of a knee-jerk reaction. I am sorry, I should have not done that. Your questions are good and worth knowing the answer to.
believer - Ask God what kind of music He accepts.
believer
'Good' music would be music that is pleasant to the listener.
Have you ever heard a song played where the performer played a wrong note in the musical piece? What was your response to it? Not a good one I am sure.
How about someone who sang a song but was off key? Did you just want them to shut up?
Music is basically made up of melody, harmony, rhythm, pitch, and intensity. There are certain priciples in each of these categories that must be observed in order to produce what is classified as 'good' music. 'Bad' music would be music that violates all these principles for writing good music.
Rock music (heavy metal and the like) violates all the principles for writing 'good' music.
Classical music observes all these principles for writing 'good' music.
Researchers have found that classical, semi-classical, and devotional music produced positive effects on all forms of life. They have found that rock music music has produced negative effects on all forms of life that included stunted growth, brain damage, chromosomal damage, and death. Music that has violated one principle for writing good music produced some negative effect.
I refer you to the following posts:
Research Findings on the Effects of Music on Plants, Animals, Humans (6 parts)
Thu Jul 31,2008 4:21am
Rock Music Highs (2 parts)
Thur Jul 31,2008 5:18pm
Frequency Effects on the Body (2 parts)
Thur Jul 31,2008 8:23pm
The information I used in my posts regarding music and its effects came from
"Christian" Rock Music, Christian or Satanic?
http://www.av1611.org/crock/crock1.html
How Music Affects Your Kids..., What Parents Need to know
http://www.vanillafudge.com/link_backups/music2.htm
"What's Wrong With Christian Rock" by Jeff Godwin
http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Wrong-Christian-Rock-Godwin/dp/0937958360/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217053636&sr=1-1
I would encourage you to read the on-line articles for they have a lot of information that I did not mention in my posts that I think would be useful.
star2, so far you've said that for the most part only classical music is approved by God and yet in most hymnals the only classical piece of Christian music is "Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee" by Beethoven. So maybe you need to define or share with us what other hymns and songs you believe are approved by God? For instance is Southern Gospel or Black Gospel approved by God? Plus you asked one person what kind of Christian Rock they listened to, so is there any Christian Rock that God would approve of?
wbmoore - You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to the devil and how he works.
Star2 (5)
"God's Word tells us to not be conformed to the world (Romans 12:2) but to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29). Our lives are to reflect Jesus Christ not the secular rock stars of our culture."
"__Christian rock singers look no different than secular rock singers."
A Christian computer programmer looks no different than a secular computer programmer. This is not a good argument.
"I believe that if God gives a Christian a song it will not follow after the patterns and styles of the world."
That is your belief. I think it's a weak argument, since we have nothing in the Bible that tells us what godly music sounds like.
I will not respond further to this thread. The subject is not that important to me. It is obvious you will not change my mind and I will not change yours. I've spent entirely too much time on this thread already and have only done so because I care about you and your opinion.
Star2 (4)
"Bad Music - violates all the laws of melody, harmony, rhythm, pitch, and intensity. Good Music - obeys all the laws of melody, harmony, rhythm, pitch and intensity."
But you see, you are arbitrarily setting (or agreeing with what someone else set) these rules. Just because someone does something that seems out of the ordinary does not make it bad. It simply makes it out of the ordinary (of course, I am not speaking about things the Bible speaks to directly).
If I say that red, black, and grey are bad colors because they depress people or excite them to lust. Then that is my arbitrarily setting the rules based on subjective thought, not the word of God.
"Adding clean water to dirty water will not make the dirty water clean."
Actually, if you add enough clean water, the parts per million will be so miniscule as to be unmeasurable. Additionally, you CAN clean the dirty water by changing it (through adding chemicals). This is what is done to rock music. By adding Christian lyrics, they change the music to praise God.
"Adding godly lyrics to profane music will not make the profane music godly"
I disagree. Adding Christ to the cross made it godly. Adding Christian lyrics that praise God to rock music makes it godly.
"Job 14:4 - "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one."
But God can make clean that which was unclean.
Acts 10: 15 The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."
"God is Holy. The Word of God say that we are to be holy or we will not see God (Heb 12:14). God will not receive something that is not holy. Thus, He will not receive a song that is unholy whether that part is the music or the lyrics."
I still hold that using Christian lyrics DOES make it holy. It sets it apart for use by God.
" Sometimes they would sing African gospel songs in their native language. I didn't recognize the music and certaintly didn't understand the language but it was very beautiful and I could feel joy from their music. The music followed all the laws of good musical composition."
Again, this is an arbitrary set of rules. You liked the music. But it would have been as godly if the music had been in a style you did not like.
"No one surrendered to his new nature is going to produce something that looks, acts, and thinks like the world."
There are churches in strip malls, others in schools, etc. But these places become holy when used for God's purpose. In the same way that there are buildings of the world that look like Christian churches. And Christian churches that look like buildings of the Lord.
Christians make many of the same things as non-Christians, so your logic does not hold up. Paul created tents, just like the world did. But He praised God and taught about God. Christian rock music praises God and teaches about God.
Star2 (3)
"In your argument you are substituting music for an instrument. An instrument is an object and is neither good nor bad. How a person makes music with it will determine whether the music is good or bad._Demon inspired music does not bring glory to God."
So then how is it that Christian rock music is doing exactly that? The artists sing praise to God, glorify God.
How is it this music, that is supposed to be from the devil, be praising and glorifying God? Jesus said the same thing when they accused Him of being from the devil.
Lk 17:17-18
17Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. 18If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub
"God told the Israelites to destroy everything from the nations that He gave them victory over and to take nothing from them. That would include their music too."
But God did not tell them to destroy everything taken from Egypt, where God had just done ten major miracles to show their gods were not gods. Instead, He used the things brought from there to build the things for His tabernacle.
" A Christian should never take demon inspired music and use it for 'God's glory'. "
What better way to slap the devil in the face than to take something that was used by him, change it, and use it to glorify God? This is what God had the Israelites do with the things of Egypt.
I wrote: "you are right in that the words and the music need to line up to be received as love. However, just as we all have different 'love languages', way we perceive love (some prefer words, some hugs, some gifts, some service), so too do we all have different music languages."_
You responded:
"I am not talking about love. I am talking about whether a song that has lyrics and music is godly or not."
You missed my point. I was not speaking about love so much as how we perceive things. You can speak German to me and I will not understand. If you use the German accent and use English words, I will understand. Some people, who grew up hearing that accent, will love what they hear.
This is the case for me and Spanish. I grew up hearing Spanish, and English with a Mexican accent. I ADORE that cadence, that accent. Others find it distasteful, or out right annoying.
Music is perceived in the same way. Some people ADORE rock, others find it distasteful or hate it outright. Some can use it to praise and glorify God.
Star2 (2)
I wrote: "What you and I consider to be pleasant or beautiful is different. Therefore, when we do things to glorify God, they will have a different look, feel, sound, to them. The same is true of music."__
And you responded:
"You are right here. However, if a song is off pitch, full of dissonates and it still is 'pleasant' to the listener then I would say that the pleasant feeling is of the devil. "
Again, this is your opinion. Unless God speaks to me directly about it, I will not go further than what the Bible says. And interestingly, the Bible is silent on this issue.
I wrote: "We have no Biblical evidence of what makes a melody godly."_
"True, but we can know what makes melody godly by applying the nature of God to the music produced.._Do you really believe that music that originates from God would produce negative effects on all forms of life? Do you think that God would produce music that results in stunted growth, brain damage, and even death?"
Just because some plants were adversely affected does not mean it was due to the music itself. We do not know what the factors were in the study you referenced. However, we DO know that some people are uplifted from listening to rock music. Granted, it may be that this is due to the devil's influence in some cases, but there is no evidence that this is the reason in any of the subjects and the Bible is silent on the issue.
I wrote: "What we DO have is the examples of something, or someone, being set-aside for the God."__
"Explain."
The items brought out of Egypt were used for God's purpose to make the things for the tabernacle, altar, etc. Yes, they were changed to make those items, but so too is Christian rock changed to praise God.
Christ let a man who was doing things in his name to continue to do so, even though John thought he was not a believer.
Mk 9:38-40
38 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." 39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
There are people who are dedicated to God who are effective for Christ and listen to Rock music.
"Jubal was the father of the harp and flute. These again are objects. How the harp and flute were played will make what comes from it either good or bad."
But using your logic, that rock music comes from voodoo music, we can not continue to use flutes and harps, at a minimum. To do so would be wrong.
"The music from voodoo cultures were inspired by Satan."
So were the people who have been saved out of voodoo. They have been changed. And although you do not agree, Christian rock music is changed from secular/satanic rock music. It is dedicated to God; it praises God.
star2 (1)
"When God sent the Israelites to take the land that He had given them He told them to destroy everything in the cities (Deu 7:1-5,25-26). That included all the people, animals, graven images, objects, groves, and etc. He told them to not take anything from them."
Yes, but He did not say that about the things taken from Egypt. These were things they were familiar with, and would be used for God's purposes. God uses things that appear like things from the devil but are dedicated to Him and His purposes.
"Instruments and music are neutral and can be used to bless or not, depending on purpose."_
I realize there are studies that show negative effects of certain music. However, there are also studies that show people find different types of music appealing and relaxing.
For example, http://cognitive-psychology.suite101.com/article.cfm/psychology_of_heavy_metal_music
"A study of more than 1,000 gifted students aged 11-18 found that heavy metal music is used for cathartic release and to dissipate negative emotions, particularly among those with low self-esteem."
And
"Some researchers have even found that subjects who were angry to begin with become happier, calmer and more relaxed after listening to heavy metal when it is their preferred musical genre."
And
"a study of students with psychiatric disorders who were also heavy metal fans actually showed improved mood after listening to their music of choice. Other studies of depressed students have found similar results, suggesting that students may use this music to help treat their depression rather than becoming depressed as a result of listening to it."
We could each find studies showing different positions. The issue is not whether
"Music is not neutral. "
I agree and disagree. I agree because music is very subjective. The reason I disagree is that music is very subjective. : ) For those who like it, rock music is calming or uplifting and classical is depressing/aggravating. For those who like it, classical music is calming and uplifting and rock is depressing/aggravating.
So, in that sense, music is not neutral. But it IS neutral because its purpose decides whether it is for God or not.
"Classical and Semi-Classical music affects all forms of life in a postive way."
Most classical and semi-classical puts me to sleep, although I like a little of it a little.
"All life forms experience a more abundant life than even the life forms that had not been exposed to music. However, all life forms experience negative effects from rock music. They experience stunted growth, brain damage, and death."
Perhaps for some plants. But many people find rock music to be relieve depressing emotions.
believer,
"we had a young man accept Christ and really great to see God work with regards to the weather and schedule. Plus we had two former NFLers come and just share two powerful testimonies with regards to their horrible upbringing and how they both came to realize without Christ life is hopeless, they really totally held the kids attention as opposed to any of the other speakers and as a result a lot of good seed was planted"
Awesome news! I'm glad God worked in obvious ways. I love it when He does that. I pray the seed will fall on fertile ground.
As for the saga about music, you can see how it goes.... :)
Prophet, wb, and all, I'm amazed this discussion is still ongoing. Had a great week at camp. Even though it was secular in nature we had a young man accept Christ and really great to see God work with regards to the weather and schedule. Plus we had two former NFLers come and just share two powerful testimonies with regards to their horrible upbringing and how they both came to realize without Christ life is hopeless, they really totally held the kids attention as opposed to any of the other speakers and as a result a lot of good seed was planted, so thanks for the prayers and good to be back.
I'll chat some more when I get home from work.
And once again, regardless of what scientists say about a particular style, I've got my own personal proof of the completely positive affects of Christian music (all forms) on me.
And why is it that you will use scientists findings to support your conviction of Christian rock, but you won't use scientists findings about evolution? Those scientists are most likely atheists. And they apparently don't understand the spiritual affects of Christian music.
But apparently you believe that Christians taking back the music that God created is evil. I disagree. God created ALL forms of music, and it's time that we quit letting satan use it for evil, and use it to glorify God.
star,
You said about your friend who wrote some spiritual songs: "One song had a stacatto beat and was bothersome to me to hear it. I just did not like it though the message was biblical"
Which proves my point that it is simple a matter of taste. I may have been ministered to by that song that you didn't like.
wbmoore - Part 1
1) "Godly words will not be received by the hearer if it is enbedded in an ungodly action."
What makes something holy or unholy?
The objects that God had the Israelites make that were like or similar to what was used in pagan temples were objects. The objects in and of themselves is neither holy nor unholy. What you do with it will make it either holy or unholy. After the Israelites made the objects they were neither holy nor unholy. They became holy when dedicated to the Lord and used to worship Him with.
When God sent the Israelites to take the land that He had given them He told them to destroy everything in the cities (Deu 7:1-5,25-26). That included all the people, animals, graven images, objects, groves, and etc. He told them to not take anything from them. This would include their music. Why? Because it would become a snare to them; it would draw them away from God. They were not even to desire the silver and gold on their graven images (Deu 7:25). Why? Because it was cursed. They were 'familiar objects'. A 'familiar object' is an object that demons attach themselves too. Take it in your presence and that demon attached to that idol will oppress your life, it will bring a curse on you.
Music is not an object. It is not neutral.
2) "Instruments and music is are neutral and can be used to bless or not, depending on purpose."
star2's Posts showing that music is not neutral
Research Findings on the Effects of Music on Plants, Animals, Humans (6 parts)
Thu Jul 31,2008 4:21am
Rock Music Highs (2 parts)
Thur Jul 31,2008 5:18pm
Frequency Effects on the Body (2 parts)
Thur Jul 31,2008 8:23pm
Music is not neutral. I have already shown in my posts mentioned above that music (w/o words) affects all forms of life. The music can effect life in a positive way, or in a negative way. Classical and Semi-Classical music affects all forms of life in a postive way. All life forms experience a more abundant life than even the life forms that had not been exposed to music. However, all life forms experience negative effects from rock music. They experience stunted growth, brain damage, and death. Plants, when exposed to atonal music (pitch is off) experienced some negative effects.
If the laws of writing musical composition that produces sounds that are pleasant, blend together, etc are adhered to when composing music, like it is in classical music for example, it will produce positive effects on all life forms. Rock music violates all the musical laws for writing pleasant sounding music. Research has shown that rock music affects all forms of life in a negative way. Research has also found that just violating one of the laws of good musical composition causes some negative effect.
Instruments are not neutral either. String instruments especially the violin had the greatest positive effect on human life.
wbmoore - Part 2A
3) "What you and I consider to be pleasant or beautiful is different. Therefore, when we do things to glorify God, they will have a different look, feel, sound, to them. The same is true of music."
You are right here. However, if a song is off pitch, full of dissonates and it still is 'pleasant' to the listener then I would say that the pleasant feeling is of the devil. (See my Rock Music Highs post)
4) "We have no Biblical evidence of what makes a melody godly."
True, but we can know what makes melody godly by applying the nature of God to the music produced.
Do you really believe that music that originates from God would produce negative effects on all forms of life? Do you think that God would produce music that results in stunted growth, brain damage, and even death? Not the God I know. The God I know brings abundant life.
Jesus speaking, "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. (John 10:10)
5) " What we DO have is the examples of something, or someone, being set-aside for the God."
Explain.
wbmoore - Part 2B
6)"The purpose is of a thing is what makes a it holy.
The same is true of music."
I disagree with you on this.
7)"If you are going to claim that a given musical style has its beginnings in voodoo, then you have to take your argument even further back. We need to realize that music goes back to one of the sons of Cain: Jubal; "he was the father of all who play the harp and flute" (Gen 4:21)."
Jubal was the father of the harp and flute. These again are objects. How the harp and flute were played will make what comes from it either good or bad. A lot of the music that was composed and played from his geneological line was probably bad but from Seth side at least a portion of it was good. King David played God honoring music that caused demons to flee from the presence of Saul.
8)"By that logic, if we are not going to use music that came through the voodoo cultures,"
The music from voodoo cultures were inspired by Satan.
9)"... then we should not use music that comes from Cain's side of the family...Obviously music from Cain's side of the family has been used to glorify and praise God."
We are using the instruments Jubal designed/created. An individual who plays the instrument can either play it to glorify and praise God or play it to give glory to the devil.
10)"So we can not use the argument that because something comes from something bad that we need to not use it for God's purposes."
In your argument you are substituting music for an instrument. An instrument is an object and is neither good nor bad. How a person makes music with it will determine whether the music is good or bad.
Demon inspired music does not bring glory to God. It is an abomination. God told the Israelites to destroy everything from the nations that He gave them victory over and to take nothing from them. That would include their music too.
A Christian should never take demon inspired music and use it for 'God's glory'.
wbmoore - Part 3
11)"Star, you are right in that the words and the music need to line up to be received as love. However, just as we all have different 'love languages', way we perceive love (some prefer words, some hugs, some gifts, some service), so too do we all have different music languages."
I am not talking about love. I am talking about whether a song that has lyrics and music is godly or not.
There are four scenarios:
Definitions:
Bad Music - violates all the laws of melody, harmony, rhythm, pitch, and intensity.
Good Music - obeys all the laws of melody, harmony, rhythm, pitch and intensity.
1) Good music + Godly lyrics: godly song
2) Good music + Bad Lyrics: ungodly song
3) Bad Music + Bad Lyrics: ungodly song
4) Bad Music + Godly Lyrics: ungodly song
Adding clean water to dirty water will not make the dirty water clean. Same with music. Adding godly lyrics to profane music will not make the profane music godly.
Adding dirty water to clean water will make the clean water dirty. Same with the music. Adding ungodly lyrics to good music will make the song ungodly.
Job 14:4 - "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one."
God is Holy. The Word of God say that we are to be holy or we will not see God (Heb 12:14). God will not receive something that is not holy. Thus, He will not receive a song that is unholy whether that part is the music or the lyrics.
12) "Someone from India is going to use different musical style and words and even language than someone from Africa, than someone from Brazil, than someone from the USA. If you put us all together, we will all sound different and maybe painful to the others. But we will all be praising God."
I agree. Americans have their own style. Jews have theirs. Africans have theirs. Each culture has good and bad music.
I use to go to an all African Baptist Church. All the members except one were first generation Africans. Sometimes they would sing African gospel songs in their native language. I didn't recognize the music and certaintly didn't understand the language but it was very beautiful and I could feel joy from their music. The music followed all the laws of good musical composition.
wbmoore - Part 4
13)"God created us. God knows our hearts. He circumcised our hearts (if we believe). HE will recognize the purpose of what we do."
Yes, He knows our hearts. But He gives us a new nature when we become born-again that is created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24). We are to surrender ourselves to our new nature not our old nature (flesh). No one surrendered to his new nature is going to produce something that looks, acts, and thinks like the world. But someone who is surrendered to his old nature will.
Rock music is of the world. Almost all, if not all, secular rock musicians are satanists. Nothing godly comes from their heart. Their music is inspired by Satan. It is an abomination; it is cursed.
Christian Rock Music (w/o words) = Secular Rock Music (w/o words)
God's Word tells us to not be conformed to the world (Romans 12:2) but to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29). Our lives are to reflect Jesus Christ not the secular rock stars of our culture.
Christian rock singers look no different than secular rock singers. Their appearance is one of rebellion; it is full of darkness. There is no difference in their music. The only differnce is the lyrics of their music. However, a lot of Christain rock lyrics are focused on self, and they are weak in theology if not heretical.
No Christian whose heart is surrendered to his new nature would copy worldly, demon inspired music.
Christian Rock music is not of God.
wbmoore
"But because we have no clear guidelines on musical style, I really do think its a matter of culture."
I disagree with you here. I have two female Christian friends. One is named Nancy and the other is named Cathy. Neither are college educated, and neither one is a musician. Both can sing on key but neither plays a musical instrument and neither know how to read musical notes.
God has given both spiritual songs. Nancy has written many and they came from her personal experiences with God as He saw her through the trials and tribulations of her life. Cathy wrote one.
Nancy recorded her songs on tape. She gave me a copy of the tape. When I listened to her sing her songs one song really brought peace to my heart and, of course, that was the name of the song. One song had a stacatto beat and was bothersome to me to hear it. I just did not like it though the message was biblical. All the others, the music was pleasant but the songs did not minister to my needs at the time.
Nancy asked me one day what I though about the songs. I told her I liked them all except the one that had the stacatto beat, and I really liked the one called 'Peace'. She said that God gave her the melody to all the songs except the one that had the stacatto beat. She said that she composed that one herself and even she showed evidence that she had failed in that melody.
Cathy said that God had given her a song. He gave her the words and the melody. She sang it for us in Church. The melody had a Jewish flavor to it, the kind you would hear in religious songs. The song was pleasant to listen to.
None of the songs had a modern day type style and beat except one, and that is the one Nancy wrote that I did not like.
A lot of Christians write songs. Most of them seem to follow the modern day style and beat. That these days is Rock. These songs are songs they write themselves. Some get songs from God where He inspires their lyrics and He gives them the melody. These songs differ from the modern day music styles. There is a big difference between the two.
I believe that if God gives a Christian a song it will not follow after the patterns and styles of the world.
star,
I'm gonna head to bed. I'm still recovering from an accident, so I'm pretty tired, stiff, and sore. I'd love to continue this tomorrow when I get home. Or you have my email addy if you want to continue that way.
Christian heavy metal is no different. Skillet's "Better Than Drugs" (very hard, driving, screaming song) drives me to my knees as my spirit cries out that God is better than anything this world could ever give. I'm being completely honest. I've cried many times listening to that song because it's my hearts cry.
I don't listen to secular heavy metal. So much of the lyrics are so worldly that it doesn't even appeal to me.
Prophet - What does the Christian heavy metal do for you?
How does it compare to secular heavy metal?
Star,
It depends on the message. I could listen to Toby Mac's "Feelin' So Fly" (rap/pop song)and feel my spirit rise up in me, and then listne to "Blessed Be The Name of the Lord" (praise song) and have the same experience.
It is true that upbeat songs tend to move my spirit in a more "aggresive" way, but it's focused on the spiritual battles and in no way negatively affects me, spiritually or emotionally. I'm not sure if that makes sense.
As far as secular, again it all depends on the message. I listen to songs that promote true love and commitment in a positive way. Most of the secular music I listen to is more in the love ballads than hard rock. Not too many hard rock songs are very uplifting in their lyrics.
Power in the Name of Jesus
I usually take my dogs out for a walk in my neighborhood every night weather permitting. There are many cats in the neighborhood that live outside. All cats that I come across while walking my dogs either ignore us or they run away.
There is one cat in the neighborhood, though, that is totally the opposite. He is all black (not that that matters) and is very aggressive if anyone comes into an area he thinks is his territory.
Well, tonight when I was walking my two dogs I came across him. When he saw us he started to slowly approach us with his back arched as if he wanted to attack.
I certainly didn't want the cat attacking me and my dogs, so, as my dogs were sniffing the neighbor's yard, I pointed my finger at the cat and said in a very loud, forceable, and harsh way, "Go, in the name of Jesus!" The cat ignored me and continued to approach with back arched and aggression in it eyes. Again, I said loudy,with a lower voice than normal for me, forciably, and with harshness, "Go, in the name of Jesus!". Still the cat ignored me and continued to approach.
I still felt like the cat might attack. I didn't know what to do. I thought I would change my approach. Again I pointed my finger at the cat, and in a soft, gentle, non-forciable voice I said, "Go, in the name of Jesus." Well, the cat looked away and started to retreat. He looked back at me again as if he wanted to attack. I said to him again in a soft and gentle voice, "Go, in the name of Jesus." This time he turned and walked away.
There is power in the name of Jesus. However, that power was hinged on how I delivered it.
God anointed my words when I spoke them in a godly (gentle, meek) way. He did not anoint them when I spoke them in an ungodly (loud, harsh) way.
Rock Music is loud and raucous (harsh and rough). If you play that kind of music with 'godly' words, the words will not carry any anointing. If it carries any anointing, it is not of God, it is of the devil.
Prophet
"Spiritual Effects of Christian rock on the body:
The spirit is blessed and uplifted and fed as it worships God. In turn, the body is blessed and prospers. Depression is gone. Anger is gone. Peace and joy is restored, bringing life to a dying body."
You gave a list of Christian artists that you say you listen to. Not all Christian artisits sing the same style of music. One is a rap singer, another metal, and other more on the lighter side of rock. Do you get the same feelings from all forms of Christian Rock? Are those feeling more intense for some sytles than other? Which ones carry the most intense feelings?
Also, you said that you still listen to some secular rock artists. Do you get same feeling from listening to their music as you do with the Christian Rock music? If not, what kind of feeling do you get?
Spiritual Effects of Christian rock on the body:
The spirit is blessed and uplifted and fed as it worships God. In turn, the body is blessed and prospers. Depression is gone. Anger is gone. Peace and joy is restored, bringing life to a dying body.
Star2,
So any music from a pagan religious culture is demonic and wrong? We can trace most musical forms of the western world (hymns, classical, baroque, etc) to the base of Greek theory and culture which was very demonic with polytheistic, sexually centered worship. If your post about rock = voodoo is correct then you need to remove almost all forms of western music including Germanic hymns and Celtic hymns.
Grace and Peace,
Jim
Frequency Effects on Body
James Reynolds
The experiements that were conducted on the plants did not mention the volume of the music. However, based on your statements about plant growth in a wind tunnel, then I would have to conclude that the volume was low since the plants that were exposed to classical or semi-classical music grew towards the music source, the plants that were exposed to rock music grew away from the source, and the plants that were exposed to atonal (off pitch) music grew partially away from the music source.
The animal researchers stated that they played the music at low volume.
The human body is affected by sound waves. It resonantes in response to the sound waves it is exposed to.
Research has found that different parts of our body resonates to different frequencies and the harmonics produced by different types of music. When tissues, cells, molecules, atoms, and energy fields resonate in harmony, the body experiences healing. When the body components experience dissonance and inharmony, then energy is taken away from the body and diseases develop.
Dr. Alfred Tomatis, a French Ear Specialtist, did decades of studies on the relationship of sound to our bodies. He found that not only did the ears provide hearing but it also energized the brain and body. He discovered that certain frequencies boost the body's energy and certain frequencies deplete the body's energy.
Tomatis discovered that certain kinds of music which had an abundance of certain frequency ranges actually were effective in recharging the central gray nuclei cells in the brain. These cells act like tiny batteries that power your brainwaves. He found that the body's internal systems and metabolism did not recharge these tiny batteries but it was certain frequencies from the outside the body that did.
As sound travels through your inner ear, it whirls around and around through the coils of the snail shaped cochlea. From there it comes upon a long line of 24,600 cells called Corti cells, which dance a perfectly synchronized dance to each sound. This dance of the Corti cells produces energy that splits off, some going to the brain and some going to the vestibular branch of your auditory nerve and then to the muscles throughout your body.
Dr. Tomatis found that Baroque and classical music that were rich in strings produced frequencies that energized and brought healing to the body and also rejuvenated the ears.
Dr. Tomatis found that sounds in the range of 5,000 to 8,000 hertz recharge the cells that are like tiny batteries in our brains the fastest. And, the sounds that were damaging to the body and the mind were low frequency sounds.(continued)
Frequency Effects on Body (continued)
James Reynolds
Other researchers have also worked with frequency ranges.
Dan Carlson d Dan Carlson experimented with the effects of frequencies on plants. He found that 5,000 hertz energizes plants. He found that absorbtion of nutrients of plants increased 700 percent.
It was discovered that this frequency of sound, 5,000 HZ actually helps the little pores on the plant's leaves called stomata, to open up. Here is an interesting fact. The frequency of bird song is around 5,000 Hz. Also, plant growth is less in areas that don't have a lot of birds singing.
Researchers have also discovered that when 5000 Hz frequencies were added to classical music while people ate that they ate more slowly, digested their food better, and didn't gain weight. On the other hand, those that ate to rock music ate very quickly, digested poorly, and gained weight.
Others, like Dr. Tomatis, have found that the most benefical frequency for recharging brain cells was around 8,000 Hz. They have found that learning is accelerated when your brain cells are recharged.
I got this information from the following article:
How Music Affects Your Kids..., What Parents Need to know
Section: The Physics of Sound and Music
http://www.vanillafudge.com/link_backups/music2.htm
Yes, satan was the worship leader in heaven. Yes, that is one of his favorite forms of influence on people. And yes, when us Christians try to take back the music that God invented, you call them evil.
It just doesn't make sense.
Rock Music Highs
The style of rock music can be traced back to African voodoo. Voodoo music took on an evolutionary change. The types of music that came from voodoo are jazz, blues, and rock 'n' roll. Rock 'n' Roll was kind of a fusion between Rhythm & Blues, and Country & Western music.
The Rock 'n' Roll style of the 40's and 50's began to change. The music began to take on a stronger beat and a wilder style and got progressively worse as time went on. There are all different kinds of rock music some of which are soft rock, folk rock, hard rock, heavy metal, punk rock, rap, and metalcore.
African Voodoo is a religion. They worship a creator god that has sons and daughters which are also refered to gods. The Word of God says these gods are idols (1 Chronicales 16:26)and behind every idol is a demon (Ezekeil 14:4). In the OT, the pagan cultures that worship false gods know that there is a spirit behind their gods. (Exodus 7:11,22,8:7,18-19). It is not unreasonable to assume that the African Voodoo worshipper also knew that there were spirits behind the gods they worshipped.
In pagan cultures these pagans had a relationship with these spirits. These spirits required obedience, righteousness, works, and worship. The pagans looked to these spirits for forgiveness, and devine help in their everyday lives.
In the OT we know that songs were written and sung after some great feat detailing what happened, the marvelous intervention of God, and giving praises to God. An example is when the Israelites crossed the Red Sea on dry ground and the army of Pharoah was drowned in the Red Sea as they pursued the Israelites. Moses and the children of Israel sang a song detailing this event and givig prasies to God (Genesis 15:1-21). Miriam and the women put timbrels to the song and they danced (Gen 15:20-21).
The music that accompanied the words I believe were inspired by God himself. (continued)
Rock Music Highs (continued)
God created music. Music is sung in Heaven (Rev 5:9).
The most beautiful and talented angel God created was Lucifer. Lucifer was full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. He was created with tabrets (drums) and pipes (instruments). (Ezekiel 28:12-15) No angel surpassed Lucifer in beauty, knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and musical ability.
Before Lucifer fell, he made music that was holy and pleasing to God. After he fell, he became full of inquitity. God casted him out of Heaven along with the angels he convinced to side with him against God. Lucifer's name was changed to Satan.
Satan is a murderer and a liar. His objective is to get as many people to turn away or sin against God as he can. He will deceive them with logic, knowledge, words, desires, feelings, pride, and etc.
The spirits behind the gods of pagan religions is Satan and his demons. Satan controls the pagan to do his will. Satan's will is not that they know and worship the true and living God but to worship him. Satan will not lead and inspire these pagan to do that which is holy and pleasing to God.
Satan knows what kind of music is holy and pleasing to God. The music that these pagans develop is inspired by Satan himself. Like everything Satan does he inspires those that worship him to do things that are defiled.
Since Voodoo is a pagan religion the music they write is inspired by Satan. It is defiled. All music that evolves from it will also be defiled.
Satan can control thoughts, emotions, and body functions.
Studies have shown that people who are involved in voodoo rites participate in a dance with a trance-like fervor. After the dance they say they feel 'clean'. This 'clean' feeling is not of God but of Satan. (Taken from How Music Affects Your Kids, What Parents Need to Know,http://www.vanillafudge.com/link_backups/music2.htm)
So there are times when something "positive' can come from something that is defiled. But Satan is the author of that positive feeling.
It is an undeniable fact that Rock Music is defiled and causes negative effects on all forms of life. Satan is behind that kind of music. Exposure to it gives Satan a legal right to influence your life not only physically but emotionally and spiritually as well.
Chritian Rock music (without the words) is nothing more than Rock Music. If the music is defiled then adding 'godly' words to it will not make it godly anymore than taking dirty water and adding clean water to it will make the dirty water clean (Job 14:4).
Satan does not want you to give up rock music. As a Christian he will give you whatever positive feeling necessary to keep you in bondage to listening to music that is defiled.
star
wether if you are right or wrong on this subject I can tell your heart means well.
As a scientist though I would have to ask the question if it is the rhythm or it it is the the sound frequency that is causing the damage or the influenced results. Lower sounds have bigger waves...that is why bass sounds you can feel it in your chest. Smaller animals and plants can not take the impact as well as larger creations such as ourselves. Yes the louder they are them more damaging, but at lower volume the impact is not that great. smaller animals also have better hearing than ours that is why shrills or high frequency pitches tend to hurt their ears, thus they will avoid them. The sound waves can also effect plant position due to large sound waves. If a plant is grown in a wind tunnel the plant tends to lean in the direction of the wind. It has to do with the amount of force(and its direction) the plant can withstand. the Fatigue is due to vibration, and not just rhythm for some people get sleepy due to melodic tones (such as the harp). After using a vibrating tool over a period of time the same effects happen. This is why vibrating baby holders are so effective at putting babies to sleep.
Research on Music's effect on me.
It uplifts and strengthens my spirit, which in turn has a very positive effect on my physical and psychological being. It blesses God, which in return causes blessing to flow to me.
So much for science...
Research Findings on the Effects of Music on Plants, Animals, and Humans
Part 1
Information taken from these articles:
"Christian" Rock Music, Christian or Satanic?
http://www.av1611.org/crock/crock1.html
How Music Affects Your Kids..., What Parents Need to know
http://www.vanillafudge.com/link_backups/music2.htm
Music can have a powerful influence on ones emotions, mood, or state of being is clearly taught in Scripture (e.g., I Samuel 16:15-17, 23;).
So, let's look at the affects of music on plants, animals, and humans.
I. Affects of Music on Plants
1) Researcher - Dorothy Retallack, Music Effects on Plants
All plants enclosed in large cabinets where light, temp, and air automatically regulated.
A) Experiment #1 - plants exposed acid rock music
00 Exposed plants to acid rock for 3 hrs/day
-- Results - In less than 4 wks the plants had stunted growth and damage
B) Experiment #2 - plants exposed to semi-classical music and rock music
At the end of 2 wks
oo plants exposed to semi-classical music
-- plants were leaning toward source of music
00 plants exposed to rock music
-- were leaning away from music source
-- grew erratically
-- died within a month
C) Experiment #3 - plants exposed to 4 different kinds of music
After 10 days, the researcher found
00 Group #1 - plants exposed to Led Zeppelin and Vanilla Fudge (hard rock)
-- all plants were leaning away from music source
-- After 3 wks all plants were stunted and dying
00 Group #2 - plants exposed to avant-grade atonal music
-- all plant were leaning 15 degress away from music source
-- had medium sized roots
00 Group #3 - plants exposed to no music
-- had the longest roots than group #1 & #2
-- grew higher than Groups #1 & #2
oo Group #4 - exposed to devotional music
-- grew towards music source
-- grew 2" taller than group #3
2) Researcher - Dr. T.C.Singh, Botany Dept Head, Anamalia University in India
Effects of Classical Music on Plants
A) Experiment #1 - Plants exposed to classical music grew twice as fast as plants that were not exposed to music.
B) Experiment #2 - Plants exposed to stringed musical instruments
oo caused protoplasm of cell to increase in motion [protoplasm is the fluid medium in all plant, human, and animal cells]
C) When Dr. Singh tracked the plants that showed vigorous growth in response to the music
oo found that later generations of their seeds produced plants that also showed increased growth impling the music somehow altered the chromosomes of the plants.
Research Findings on the Effects of Music on Plants, Animals, and Humans
Part 2A - Affects of Sound on Animals
How Music Affects Your Kids..., What Parents Need to know
http://www.vanillafudge.com/link_backups/music2.htm
II. Affects of Sound on Animals
1)Researcher - Dr. Alfred Tomatis, French Ear Specialist
A)Effects of sound on our body
oo spent decades studying the affect of different sound frequencies on the body
-- some frequencies boosted body's energy
-- some frequencies depleted body's energy
2) Researchers - Studied affects of sound and music on mice
-- Dr. Harvey Bird, Physicist from Fairleigh Dickinson University
-- Dr. Gervasia Schreckenberg, Neurobiologist from Georgian Court College in Lakewood, NJ.
A) Experiment #1 - Three test groups. Mice were tested to see how well they could run a maze to get to food after exposed to voodoo drum beats, Strauss Waltzes, or no music. All music was kept at low volume. Done over a period of time. Mice were tested for their ability to remember the maze over time.
oo Group #1 - exposed to incessant voodoo drum beats
-- had a difficult time running maze
-- over time this difficulty increased to the point they became totally disoriented and unable to complete maze
-- after a 3 week break from the voodoo drum beats and running maze - mice still could not run maze
oo At the end of experiment, brains were dissected
-- had abnormal structural changes in their brain cells.
-- The neurons in their brains were growing out wildly in all directions without connecting to other neurons.
-- There was also abnormal amounts of Messenger RNA, a chemical that the brain uses for storing memories.
oo Group #2 - exposed to Strauss waltzes
-- had no problem running the maze
-- did better than than Group #3
-- after a 3 wk break from the waltzes and running maze - the mice could run the maze quickly
oo Group #3 - were kept in silence
-- had no problem running maze
-- after 3 wks break from running maze - could run maze quickly
Researchers Conclusions:
oo Music does effect mental functioning.
oo Exposure to harmful music (disharmonic noise) causes brain damage
Everything in life goes in a rhythm, even the life of a single cell. All the biochemical reactions are rhythmic. If that harmony is disrupted by some kind of disharmony, then it can cause detrimental effects.
The concept that what we take into our bodies as stimuli affects our brains is not a new concept to neuroscientists. Their experience and experiments have shown them, particularly for children whose brains are still growing, that the stimuli to which they are exposed to shapes their brains.
Research Findings on the Effects of Music on Plants, Animals, and Humans
Part 2B - Affects of Sound on Animals
How Music Affects Your Kids..., What Parents Need to know
http://www.vanillafudge.com/link_backups/music2.htm
B) This discussion of brain damage from harmful music ties right in with what had been reported at some rock concerts.
oo Experiment - Effects of rock music on raw eggs at Rock Concert
-- raw eggs placed on foot of stage
-- eggs became hard boiled midway through the concert
oo Researchers - Dr. Earl Flosdorf and Leslie A. Chambers
-- found that shrill sounds projected into a protein based liquid would coagulate the proteins (this is what happens to eggs when they are hard boiled
oo A lot of the lyrics of songs that are popular in the various rock and rap genres complain about the lack of control and the lack of opportunities that so many people face in this world, particularly our youth.
C) Experiment - Music (classicl and rock) preferences of Rats
oo Rats were allowed to freely move between two identical boxes that were connected by a passageway.
oo Each of the boxes a speaker was playing one kind of music.
-- Johann Sebastion Bach's music was played into one box
-- rock music into the other.
oo Rats spent all of their time in the "Bach box".
oo Scientists switched the music that was playing in each box.
-- Rats all migrated away from the rock music to the box where the Bach was playing.
Research Findings on the Effects of Music on Plants, Animals, and Humans
Part 3A
How Music Affects Your Kids..., What Parents Need to know
http://www.vanillafudge.com/link_backups/music2.htm
III. Affects of Music on Humans
QUESTION: Does music affect man's physical body?
Modern research says that it does.
A) Medical Effects of Music on Humans
oo Researcher - John Diamond, MD
-- man is rhythmic in respiration, heartbeat, pulse, speech, and gait,
-- when the rhythm of music corresponds to the natural body rhythms, it produces feelings of ecstasy, alertness, and peace, and it energizes the mind and body, and facilitates balance and self-control. (These secular medical findings are also supported by Scripture [I Samuel 16:15-17,23]).
oo Researcher - David Nobel, MD: an authority on music
-- has done extensive research on the value of music rhythms corresponding to body rhythms.
-- "..rock contains harmonic dissonance and melodic discord while it accents rhythm with a big beat. In fact, the anapestic beat [two short beats, a long beat, then a pause] used by many rock musicians actually is the exact opposite of our heart and arterial rhythms [thereby causing an immediate loss of body strength]."
Dr. Diamond confirms Dr. Nobel's findings and adds that the stopped anapestic rhythm "heightens stress and anger, reduces output, increases hyperactivity, and weakens muscle strength."
oo Dr. David Mazie, "Music's Surprising Power to Heal,"
--"Music reduces staff tension in the operating room," says Dr. Clyde L. Nash, Jr. � "and also helps relax the patient." [He uses classical music such as Vivaldi and Mozart.]
oo Clinical researchers at the U.C.L.A. School of Nursing in Los Angeles, and at Georgia Baptist Medical Center in Atlanta
-- found that premature babies gained weight faster and were able to use oxygen more efficiently when they listened to soothing music mixed with voices or womb sounds.
oo Tallahassee (Fla.) Memorial Regional Medical Center
-- premature and low-birth-weight infants exposed to an hour and a half of soothing vocal music each day averaged only 11 days in the Newborn Intensive Care Unit, compared with 16 days for a control group.
oo Baltimore's St. Agnes Hospital
-- classical music was provided in the critical-care units. "Half an hour of music produced the same effect as ten milligrams of Valium," says Dr. Raymond Bahr, head of the coronary-care unit.
Research Findings on the Effects of Music on Plants, Animals, and Humans
Part 3B
"Christian" Rock Music, Christian or Satanic?
http://www.av1611.org/crock/crock1.html
oo Music affects digestion, internal secretions, circulation, nutrition and respiration.
oo Music affects neural networks of the brain.
-- The brain has been found to be sensitive to harmonic principles"
oo Different Music features (consonant and dissonant chords, different interval, etc) affect human body
-- pulse and respiration-upon their rate and upon whether their rhythm is constant, or interrupted and jumpy
--Blood pressure is lowered by sustained chords and raised by crisp, repeated ones.
-- The tension of the larynx is affected by melodies
-- sound stimuli can have a negative effect upon the skeletal muscles
-- rock rhythms cause the heart beat to lose its perfect rhythm
-- certain rhythms can even cause a rare malady known as "musicogenic epilepsy" (76 documented cases as of 1984), with which some of its victims have been tormented to the point of committing suicide or murder.]
oo Julius Portnoy has also found that not only can music "change metabolism, affect muscular energy, raise or lower blood pressure, and influence digestion," but "It may be able to do all these things more successfully ... than any other stimulants that produce those changes in our bodies".
B)Conclusion
Music affects the body in two distinct ways: directly, as the effect of sound upon the cells and organs, and indirectly, by affecting the emotions, which then in turn influence numerous bodily processes"
Musicologist Alice Monsarrat points out that it "is precisely at this point that rock 'n' roll ... becomes potentially dangerous. This is because, to maintain a sense of well-being and integration, it is essential that man is not subjected too much to any rhythms not in accord with his natural bodily rhythms"
Research Findings on the Effects of Music on Plants, Animals, and Humans
Part 4
How Music Affects Your Kids..., What Parents Need to know
http://www.vanillafudge.com/link_backups/music2.htm
IV. Rock Music a Drug?
A) Constant exposure to rock music
oo causes abnormalities in the brain.
oo body craves rock music
-- wants hyperactivity and tension
-- needs it to get the day going
Is this not what a drug abuser experiences?
V. Summary
Research has shown that
oo rock music (w/o words) causes negative effects on all forms of life
-- plants lean away from music source
-- mice get away from music source
-- all life forms experience either stunted growth, brain damage, and/or death
oo atonal music, music that lacks a tonal center, or key (ie, pitch), has a limited negative effect on all forms of life
-- plants lean away some from music source
oo classical and semi-classical music had a positive effect on all forms of life
-- improved quality of life
oo Based on these finding it is not unreasonable to assume that the negative effects of music on all forms of life increases as the music violates more and more of the laws of music composition.
The things the church is truly lacking fasting, prayer, and Spirit feeding! Robert Bogucki type fasting, L. Ravenhill type prayer and Pauline spirit feeding.
speaking of strengthening your spirit...merely fasting doesn't do much, if you are not feeding your spirit during that time. it is a time of intense prayer and bible studying so that your spirit can thrive. and when your spirit thrives, your body will thrive.
fast the most important thing in your life. is it tv? computer? food? whatever can or does come between you and God, you should think about fasting.
fasting (especially food) denies your body of it's carnal desires, making your flesh weak but allowing your spirit to strengthen. which then makes your spirit more sensitive to His.
fasting! not just good......good for you!
thank you thank you. i'll be here all week....
I do believe that new born Christians should fast from the music thay've listened to. I've had to rebuke many songs in the name of Jesus, that I found myself singing for no good reason. I couldnt find any music of old I should be listening to. I threw it ALL away. I think there are many things Christians should fast from today...TV...Radio...Cell Phones...Computer...if the thought of fasting from anything bothers you, you should truly consider fasting from it. I dont mean a fast of which you could accidentally do either i.e. meat for a day or chocolate.
JUST SAY NO!
"Friends don't let friends listen to Christian rock"
thanks argyle,
i was just trying to lighten things up a little, ease the tension. It was getting a little too serious in here.
i almost started talking about the man on the stilts, but i figured that would be a little too over the top. hahahaha...get it? stilts? over the top? hahahaha....man. no one appreciates my humor.
Jester,
I felt bad for your jokes getting thumbs down so I balenced them out for ya buddy. ;)
"Friendship with the world is enmity with God (James 4:4)."
Yeah and i quit listing to a lot of music that drew me to the world and away from God, I also lost close friendships with people because I loved God more.
But i dont think that verse applies really only to music but how you live you life and what kind of lifestyle you live.
The love of money is the root of all evil.
Friendship with the world is enmity with God (James 4:4).
a little girl in the audience screamin because the clowns scare her.
little crazy clowns running around spraying each other with water maybe
but thers no screamin guitars and off key singin
5/4 isn't a funky beat is it?
CARNIVAL MUSIC!!!!
That's always a neutral music style
Star
what is acceptable as Christian music in your eyes?
some may say slow melodic tunes put me to sleep, and I think we both would agree this is bad when Worshipping God for we should feel alive and energetic (full of the Spirit) shouldn't we?
I asked star for scripture to back her conviction. She quoted (paraphrased) that satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy.
A very vague and general scripture (first rule of apologetics: don't make specific that which was intended for generalization.)
I responded with my argument "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord."
That's what the music I listen to could be catagorizes as...a joyful noise to the Lord.
So, as much as star wants to find demons under every rock, I stand secure in the knowledge that God accepts my offering of praise and adoration regardless of what label any man puts on it. He finds the music I listen to a sweet and beautiful odor, because it is filled with His Spirit.
Star2
Music is just a way of delivering a message. I don't see how this could belong to the devil. It may be a tool of the devil but it does not belong to the devil. The internet is the same way. It can be used to search for porn or it can be used to search for God. This website that you are on is delivering a message through a communication channel. That is all music is, a channel in which to deliver a message. Star can you explain to me how there is a difference between the two? Both were created by man and both are being used by God and Satan.
star 2
LOL, please don't try to mix your beliefs with logic, you're not very good at it.
star2,
I happen to hate most stuff I have heard that is called 'rock', regardless of genre. So I'm not trying to defend rock music in and of itself. I realize you probably think I'm blinded by the world or the devil because I am not in agreement with you. But because we have no clear guidelines on musical style, I really do think its a matter of culture.
"Godly words will not be received by the hearer if it is enbedded in an ungodly action."
What makes something holy or unholy? Its not its mere form or existence, otherwise God would not have had the Israelites make the same sort of things for HIS temple that other 'gods' had for theirs. It is the purpose that makes them holy - the bowls in the temple were to be used for God and were set aside and dedicated to God; this made them holy.
Instruments and music is are neutral and can be used to bless or not, depending on purpose. What you and I consider to be pleasant or beautiful is different. Therefore, when we do things to glorify God, they will have a different look, feel, sound, to them. The same is true of music.
We have no Biblical evidence of what makes a melody godly. What we DO have is the examples of something, or someone, being set-aside for the God.
The purpose is of a thing is what makes a it holy.
The same is true of music.
If you are going to claim that a given musical style has its beginnings in voodoo, then you have to take your argument even further back. We need to realize that music goes back to one of the sons of Cain: Jubal; "he was the father of all who play the harp and flute" (Gen 4:21). So if we are going to use the logic that if something has its origins in something bad then it must be bad, then we have to realize that all music goes back even further. By that logic, if we are not going to use music that came through the voodoo cultures, then we should not use music that comes from Cain's side of the family. Wait for it... all music apparently comes from his side of the family. So then, using that logic, we can not use music to give praise to God. Obviously music from Cain's side of the family has been used to glorify and praise God. So we can not use the argument that because something comes from something bad that we need to not use it for God's purposes.
Star, you are right in that the words and the music need to line up to be received as love. However, just as we all have different 'love languages', way we perceive love (some prefer words, some hugs, some gifts, some service), so too do we all have different music languages. Someone from India is going to use different musical style and words and even language than someone from Africa, than someone from Brazil, than someone from the USA. If you put us all together, we will all sound different and maybe painful to the others. But we will all be praising God.
God created us. God knows our hearts. He circumcised our hearts (if we believe). HE will recognize the purpose of what we do.
Part 1
According to the lyrics of one of Petra's songs God is the originator of rock 'n' roll. However, this is not the case.
According to David Tame, a non-believer, in his book "The Secret Power of Music", the genology of rock 'n' roll had its beginnings with voodoo. The progression of music styles went from voodoo to jazz to blues to rock 'n' roll. Rock 'n' roll is kind of a fusion between rhythm & blues and country & western music.
voodoo practices are clearly demonic. Any music associated with it would be demonic as well. Secular rock music is demonic. Most, if not all, secular rock band members are satanists.
People who grew up on rock 'n' roll music and became born-again have formed their own rock bands to sing 'glory' to God using the music they loved, rock 'n' roll. Some wrote fairly neutral lyrics to go with their music while others wrote some very beautiful godly lyrics.
The question is, "Does the godly lyrics make the secular (ungodly) rock music the Christian Rock bands play godly? Will God receive the Christian singer's song if the music is ungodly?"
Our answer lies in the Word of God. (continue)
Part 2
Scripture tells us that we are to love one another. This love is agape love and is defined in 1 Corthians 13:4-7. Agape love is an action you show towards someone whether that person is mean or nice, friend or foe, and etc..
There are two aspects to our relationships with people. One is the words we speak and the other is how we treat people.
In our relationships with people, hopefully, we will share the love of God with them by ministering to their need whether it be for salvation, helping to soothe their wounded spirit or whatever. God's Word says in 1 Cor 13:1 that if in sharing the love of God with people through our godly words if we do not show them agape love our words are like sounding brass and tinkling cymbals. The hearer of our words will just want to put their hands over their ears to keep from hearing us for the sounds of our words are wild, harsh, disturbing, repulsive and sometimes our words can't even be clearly heard by the hearer because they have been come distorted.
We can conclude from this that if agape love, an action we show someone, is not present, then the words we speak no matter how godly they may be are nothing more than wild, harsh sounds that the hearer tries to block out and reject.
Godly words will not be received by the hearer if it is enbedded in an ungodly action. The word-action relationship will not be godly but ungodly because godly words alone are not sufficent to make the relationship godly.
We are commanded to make melody in our hearts to God. The songs we sing we sing for God. But does He receive it? Will He receive a song that is ungodly?
No, of course not, because God is Holy and we are to be holy. If our song we sing to Him is not holy he will not hear it.
A song that is sung has two parts to it also. It has words and it has melody. In order for the realtionship between the two to be considered godly both parts have to be godly. The godly words have to be embedded in godly music before the song becomes godly just like the godly words spoken to someone in a relationship has to be enbedded in a godly action for the recipenent to receive the words.
Thus, if we want our song that we sing to the Lord to be received by Him then the godly lyrics we sing must be sung with music that is godly. If the music is not godly then God will not hear us because what we present to Him is polluted.
Conclusion:
Secular rock music without the words is ungodly (demonic). Since Christian rock music is the same as the secular rock music then Christian rock music without the words is also ungodly (demonic). Adding godly words to an ungodly melody will not make the song godly. Thus, God will not receive it from the believer because the song is ungodly.
Personally, I thank God that groups like Tait and Skillet follow God's leading and direction in playing their music. Their music is truly annointed, reaching millions who would otherwise not be reached. It's amazing how God had blessed them for their obedience to Him, and how their reward in heaven for reaching the lost with the message of the Gospel will be great. I pray for their continued success and blessings as they continue in His will.
The expirement itself does not really prove much of anything, maybe it was the constant vibrant soundwave battering the cells of the organisms that killed it, Sound can be damaging, especially louder sounds, Rock music is louder than most music, maybe thats why the organisms held up better over classical.
Research can prove just about anything you want, evolution, the non-existance of God, but do i take all research seriously heck no. FOrall i know the research could be a lie. Whati have noticed is listening to music that had an angry message or sad message over a long peroid of time was harmful to my mental health. And i will be patient in waiting for your Biblical guidline for music. take your time :) I hope you sleep well, Grace be with you!
Actually i only have an associats degree, I currently am a gas station casheer, but hopefully i can get a decent drafting job soon.
Well, good night everyone. See you again another time.
Carrot - You didn't understand anything that I wrote to you. I addressed the heart when I said that only God can judge the person whether they be saved or not. Additional clarification, only God can judge whether God means anything to them or not. Words are cheap and deceptive. Only God can look into someone's soul.
Also, desire of heart will not make that which is unclean clean.
Also I addressed the issue about whether it is God's will that Christians play rock music. When we are saved we are to leave the world behind. Out with the old and in with the new. If we don't the Word of God states that we cannot know the will of God (Romans 12:2). Christian rockers have not left the old life behind and therefore cannot know what the good, acceptable, and perfect will of God is.
Christian Rock music is no different than Secular Rock Music. Satan is the author of secular rock music. He is also the author of Christian Rock music. I am not talking about the words I am talking about the music here. God is Holy, not unholy. To say that God is a part of something that is profane is blasphemey.
What I say might be stepping on your toes but it is the truth.
Continue with this kind of music and eventually it will weaken if not destroy you relationship with God. bradfreeman experienced it as well as many others. You will not be immuned from it. It won't me that will wreck, it will be you.
God is your judge. You are accountable to Him alone.
I have prayed for you and part of what I prayed was what God wanted me to say to you. He told me and I said it in the post I made earlier today.
As much as she claims otherwise, it's not sinful. It's merely her taste in music. She may not like the loud banging, heavy guitar riffs of some Christian music. But I do.
Does it have a negative impact on my physio/psychological person? Not any more than caffeine, sugar, and about a million other additives that are put into just about every food imaginable.
Does it have a negative impact on my spiritual self? No even close. It actually has a very positive impact on my spiritual self, which in turn has a positive impact on my physical and psychological person.
That's the results of my studies, regardless of what scientists say.
Star, it seems like sarcasm coming from you and prophet. Maybe its just two kids playing with each other. But then again, maybe not.
Star2
You need to check yourself before you wreck yourself. I know I haven't talked a whole lot about it but I don't think you understand the struggle I went through fighting God for the kind of music I was into when I was younger. He led me to stuff that still pleases my ears yet also pleases and comforts my soul with the lyrics always reminding me of how great our God truly is and how many many ways there are to worship him. I have yet to see how the music I choose to listen to makes me fall into sin and because of that I honestly feel that God is just fine with the music I listen to especially if I am able to praise him in all of it. This will be my last post because your as set in your ways as I seem to be in mine but just one last time I will mention the heart because as many posts as you have had you have failed to mention it once and the part it plays in worship. The heart from my standpoint is where its all at. I went to Costa Rica for 17 days earlier in July and when they would worship in Spanish and I couldn't understand a word of it I was still able to worship God and praise him because my heart was totally and fully in it for him. By no means am I perfect though and my heart certainly isn't always in the right place just because I am in a worship setting and when its not, no matter what music or worshipping is going on (because music isn't the only type of worship :)) it means nothing to God.
One last thing. Jesus + something = NOTHING so don't ever lift yourself about someone else or condemn someone because they aren't doing the things you do to be "right" with God because in the end, we are all loved by God equally and nothing you can do will hinder or help that.
wbmoore
"star, you need to check yourself too."
Explain please.
star, you need to check yourself too.
Prophet - If you grew up listening to rock music that usually produces harsh, rough and disorderly (raucous)feelings then I am not surprised that love balads would not work for you.
When I grew up in the 60's I liked to listen to Joan Biaz, Bobby Dylan, the Kingston Trio, and etc., a lot of classical music, and of course the Beatles, the Beach Boy, and etc on the radio. Bobby Dylan had a song that really made me depressed. i use to lsiten to it a lot. don't know why. Who would wwant to listen to a song that makes you depressed. Oh well, a nut case I guess...haHa
I don't listen to this stuff anymore. After my freshhman year in college I.i only listened to classical music. After I left college I didn't listen to music any more until the mid 70's when I started listening to Christian music on a Christian radio station. Now if I listen to music at all it is usually praise and worship music (no rock obviously) and standard hymns from the Hymnal. I play te cornet so I'll play songs from the baptist Hymnal. Not right now though because I don't have my horn anymore. God willing I'll get another one.
argyle, your patience is to be commended.
Prophet, you are being rude.
star is trying to be helpful.
I'm sorry star. I didn't mean to convict you of your sins. That's God's job. If you want to continue in sin, then feel free. Watch tv. Let satan in to work in your life. Don't say I didn't warn you.
Star2,
I am going to show my age here.
I loved reading the lyrics of the song you posted for me. I'd like to listen to them accompanied by a nice acoustic guitar playing a slow gentle melody.
I'm glad I knew before I listened that it was a Christian Rock band. I really have no appreciation for hard rock/heavy metal/what-ever-they-call-it-these-days. But out of deference to you, star2, I listened to that torturous thing called a song. :)
I am very grateful I had the lyrics to read. Occasionally I was able to make out the words clearly without having to read the lyrics. But had I NOT had them, I would not have understood most of it. But I DID have them, and I DID understand them. At first I laughed because I could not understand the words. Then as I listened more, I was able to make out the words easier. I kept thinking to myself, "this child is going to hurt his throat." and laughing because while it is NOT my cup of tea, I know teens who would eat it up and not believe you could be cool (or hot or rad or grunge or whatever the latest term it) and a Christian too.
Yes, it was difficult to listen to, but I did not find the tune itself that bad. Once I got into the sound of the poor boy's voice, I could tolerate the experience. I'll never appreciate it myself. But I can see how it would reach a certain segment of today's world - a certain sub-culture of the west.
I worry for the boy's throat, and I could see where you might think the sound of the lyrics coming from that throat could be satanic (its the sound we used to hear coming from Linda Blair's mouth in the Exorcist). But its definitely not worshipping the devil. Is it from God? *shrug* Is it from the devil? No, I do not think so.
Again, to me, its a cultural thing. As long as people are pointed to God, then I think it is good. If people come to faith because of a conversation regarding the lyrics, or because of reading the lyrics, then I can ask for nothing more.
It is NOT a worshipful experience for me, but its not heinous either. Just unpleasant. But then, I prefer country and western - If only they could figure out how to sing about a guy driving his pickup in the country trying to beat a train while aiming his gun at a deer and no longer getting drunk and his wife who left him returning home - all while praising God, then I think I could enjoy it, since its what I grew up with.
Well I guess that you need to stop reading educational books because a little leaven leavens the whole bunch.
Do you watch TV? More than me or less than me? If it is more than boy are you ever polluted. Maybe you need to go to Jesus and get your sins washed away or people will think you are a child of the devil.
Prophet - Again, you obviously didn't read very well what I wrote for if you had you would have not made this statement, "But, according to you, the lyrics play no role in whether it's sinful or not."
this is what I said:
If music a person listens to causes positive effects on a person and life itself then it is of God in the sense it follows the laws of music compostiion that God created. However, the lyrics of the music will either make the song godly or ungodly (application of Proverbs 18:21). Listen to godly music with ungodly words long enough and it will corrupt the conversation and behavior of the listener (1 Cor 15:33).
Proverbs 18:21 (KJV) - "Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
1 Corinthians 15:33 (NASV) - "Do not be deceived: Bad company corrupts good morals."
The researchers found that the lyrics of the rock music made no difference. It was the music itself so it doesn't matter if the rock music was classified as Christian or secular.
As I said star, A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 1/2 an hour is enough to let satan in to start his work.
I wonder if they did any tests using Christian Rock music? Doubtful. Then how can you say it was the beat? Maybe it was the negative spirit in the lyrics that had an adverse affect on plants and people.
If you really want to know what had a negative impact on me when I was growing up was the slow, ballad "love songs", that had no racous but followed the "laws of melody, harmony, rhythm, pitch, and intensity" as you put it.
What negatively affected me was the sad, lonely lyrics that inspired depression and a sense of loss and loneliness.
But, according to you, the lyrics play no role in whether it's sinful or not.
correction
When I use to watch A LOT of TV some time ago I found that to be true.
Yes I agree that watching TV dull our senses and lessen our imagination. When I use to watch TV some time ago I found that to be true.
However, I said on the average I watch about 1/2 hr per day. Some days I don't watch TV at all. Other days it will be longer. An hour or two maybe more if I am particularly bored and have nothing to do.
Sometimes man's technology is his worse enemy.
Science has proven that watching TV dulls our senses and lessens our imagination, having negative impact on our lives. Only a 1/2 hour of watching tv a night? Don't you know that a little leaven leavens the whole loaf?
Only 1/2 hour? Why bother? You can't learn anything of any real value by watching half a show on TLC.
star,
Caffeine does that too. Drink any caffinated drinks lately?
Actually, just about everything we ingest has ingredients that can kill us or lessen our health, whether instantaneously or over time. About the only things that won't is home grown vegetables.
Our car's exhaust is filled with toxins that pollute our atmosphere and shorten our lifespan.
I think we're all in trouble.
ergyle and Prophet - What goes up must go down. Right? The law of gravity is in play here. That isn't in the Bible but research or personal experience has proven that true time and time again. Right? God created all the laws of physics so, it must have been the way God created it.
It is the same with the research that has been done with music. Independent researchers have found that rock music (music composition that does not follows the laws of melody, harmony, rhythm, pitch, and intensity) caused negative effects on humans, animals, and plants. These negative effects included stunted growth and sometime death. On the other hand serious music (music composition that followed the laws of melody, harmony, rhythm, pitch, and intensity) like classical music, caused positive effects on humans, animals, and plants. All forms of life experienced improvement when exposed to 'serious' music (classical music to be exact).
From John 10:10 we know that Satan came to kill, steal, and destroy. If a certain kind of music destroyes life then the author of that music had to be Satan since that is his purpose and objective. Research has shown that rock music, music that does not follow the laws of melody, harmony, rhythm, pitch and intensity, has negative effects on all forms of life, hence it is of the devil.
To reject the results of the effects of music on all forms of life then you have to reject the research on the effects of gravity when an object is tossed into the air.
Architect? Are you licsend? Do you work as an architect? I worked as a Junior Draftsman in the engineering department of a shipping yard back in 1976. We were designing and fabricating a winch for the Navy.
argyle,
This will take star a while. There are no scriptures, but let's give her a chance to find out on her own.
argyle - you are not making me look foolish you are making yourself look foolish.
"I want more specific scripture defining the bounds of what makes music Holy or unclean" - I am working on this.
I majored in architecture by the way :)
Prophet
my post to argyle was inresponse to the following post mde by him:
"I know what you were talkiing about star. I just don't know how you can watch a channel that promotes evolution. The more you watch it, the more you support their worldly views."
Prophet could be right, a person might not watch the shows on the channel about evolution, but the fact that that person is a contributing view to the channel they are supporting them so they have more money to air more show about evolution to influence the masses that do watch them, even if a person isnt watching the shows they are indirectly supporting the agenda of the evolutionists...
Why don't you read the history of the conversation before you comment. It would save you from making statements that do not apply to the discussion at hand which makes you look foolish.
All night you have been making wrong statements and conclusions becaue you are not careful to read what I write.
star,
I dont want to make you look foolish, If i have offened you, I am sorry. But the only scripture i remeber you posting on music was that Jesus came to give life, and Satan came to kill, steal and destroy. You could apply that scripture with just about anything you want to make something evil or good. I want more specific scripture defining the bounds of what makes music Holy or unclean and what puts music in a different categore from observance of days, food, ect.ect... Your example was too broad. New Testemant scriptural eveidence would be preffered.
I've scanned the Bible. I didn't see any scriptures that say that the style of Christian music is either evil or good. But it does say to make a joyful noise unto the Lord.
star,
You said "No one knows what I am watching."
Integrity is what you do when no one is watching.
star,
No you haven't given any scriptures. All you've done is said that it is of the devil.
argyle - You are so foolish. The amount of TV I watch per day on the average is probably less than 1/2 hr. No one knows what I am watching. The only way they can know is if they call me and no one has called. You can't win over anything I have said so you make statements that are foolish in hopes of putting me down. It isn't cutting me down it is only making you look foolish (stupid). I know you aren't stupid or you wouldn't be a college grad.
What was your major in college? Business?
I hope you will check back again maybe tomorrow or the next day because I will have a post with information in it that you have been wanting to know.
God loves you. May He bless you.
"I know what you were talkiing about star. I just don't know how you can watch a channel that promotes evolution. The more you watch it, the more you support their worldly views."
Prophet could be right, a person might not watch the shows on the channel about evolution, but the fact that that person is a contributing view to the channel they are supporting them so they have more money to air more show about evolution to influence the masses that do watch them, even if a person isnt watching the shows they are indirectly supporting the agenda of the evolutionists...
I never heard Christ say that christian rockers would not make it into heaven, but he did say that about the sexually imoral. The two topics are way different.
Thats exactly how I feel Prophet. Like if I am wrong, id like to be rebuked by some solid scripture, Iv been proved wrong on CP before, and I have fully acepted that, I know Im not perfect, what man is? It bothers me when people try to push legalism on me. I spent tons of night worring if i was going to go to hell for working on Saturday when i could have studied harder for my finals I almost joined the Seventh Day Advantist Cult thinking they were just another denomination. I thank Jesus for setting me free from the strict bounds of mosaic law. I tried to observe a sabbath but the more i tried not to the more I sinned, I wanted to go for a walk in the woods, but i had to drive my care 15 minuets to get there, then i realized i was wasteing money on gas that I could use to give to the poor, Then i started worrying about what time full sunset actually was, and i spent more time worring about how to please God correctly than actually pleasing him. Legalism can be really abusing to the Spirit.But i will admit the whole experience in the end made me a much stronger Christian.
Prophet - I have backed my 'opinion' with scripture with sound reasoning. You can't see it either because Satan has blinded your eyes to truth so you won't repent from this ungodly music, or because you didn't read what I wrote very carefully like you have done with a number of my posts tonight, or you just plain ole lack spiritual discrement to these kind of issues, or you lack for the most part understanding of the Word of God and how to apply it to various circumstances. You have more than just a problem with rock music but you also have a problem with the laws of God. You aren't much different than the homos that say that God is not opposed to gay sex because that word isn't used in the Word of God and he is only talking about ritual gay sex in the pagan societies.
From your list of musicians you like to listen to I can see that you do like a variety styles from traditional type styles to hard rock like metal to rap and to everything in between.
God is your judge. He alone are you accountable to.
Good night.
I could probably take someone more serious if they back their convictions with scripture. But there is no scriptures to support that Christian rock is sinful. It just comes down to opinion and preference. But I wish people wouldn't try to turn their own preference into law. That's not very Christian, and it leads to bondage.
As I've posted before. I enjoy all genres of Christian music. My all time fav would have to be Keith Green. But I also like Steven Curtis Chapman, Skillet, Toby Mac/DC Talk, Sandy Patti, early Amy Grant, early The Imperials, Rez Band, Steve Taylor, Madgellan, Hillsong, Koinonia (Christian Jazz), Lamb (Messianic Jewish music), Second Chapter of Acts, Den Peck, Phil Keaggy, Burlap to Cashmere, Twila Paris, Newboys, AA, Michael W., Tait, Caedmon's Call, JOC...just to name a handful.
Just something else to consider and argue about for you folks.
1. Jews thought Greek music which was different and tied (at least in form) to polytheism and sexual immorality was sinful. They were wrong.
2. Many thought Luther was sinful for using a bar tune for a hymn, they were wrong.
3. For many a century, ALL music was banned by the Roman church because it wasn't just voices.
4. When organs and pianos were introduced, this argument was ongoing because many couldn't understand the words. They were wrong to say it was sinful.
5. Many said the same with the advent of jazz and blues. They were wrong.
6. Many said this with Keith Green, Stonehill and the others. My father and mother couldn't understand the words (they listened [dad is dead and mom is still here] to big band) and thought it was demonic because they couldn't understand the words to rock music. They were wrong.
8. This argument is another reason Christians are thought to be irrelevant, because we relegate ourselves to irrelevance with these meaningless and petty conversations.
Remember Paul's admonishment for this type of thought process, "don't touch, don't taste, etc."
Grace and Peace,
Jim
Prophet - The programs that I watch on Discovery Health, Animal Planet,and the History Channel do not talk about evolution. If they do I shut them off.
star,
"Music is not a neutral medium"
why, and where in scripture does it explain this....
Prophet - There is different kinds of Christian Rock. Some metal, some rap, some lighter kinds that would mimminck what one would call light rock, and then there are some in between. I'll see what samples of the differemnt kinds I can find on youtube later. I am cooking supper right now.
star,
"Music is not a neutral medium"
why, and where in scripture does it explain this....
I listen to Christian rock.
What kind of rock do you listen to Prophet? Heavy metal, punk, thrash, rap, or some form of light rock from back in the 60's? Which one(s)?
star,
"Music is not a neutral medium"
why, and where in scripture does it explain this....
And again, star, in some people's eyes you are sinning. Because there are a large number of people that think that watching TV (regardless of what it is) is a sin. So you might want to repent of that sin and change your ways.
I know what you were talkiing about star. I just don't know how you can watch a channel that promotes evolution. The more you watch it, the more you support their worldly views.
He also told me to ask you to repent for your false accusations against your brother.
Prophet - "I agree with you. Music is neither moral or immoral"
I was not talking about music I was talking about TV. Pay closer attention to what I write.
Music is not a neutral medium. How you compose it will determine if it is demonic or not. If not demonic then the lyrics will determine if the song is godly or worldly or even sinful.
Star whould you call Going to the jungle and telling all the natives that Jesus is the lamb of God is effetive in preaching to them? First of, they dont know english down there, second they might not even know what a lamb is... Rock and Roll is part of a CUTLURE. Its different from your CULTURE. by imitaitng aspects of a culture you can find how to bring the word of God to them.
star,
I just asked God. He said that the music I listen to and perform are a pleasing sound to Him.
No its a copy of my post from yesterday, I can understand the vocalist loud and clear, So can the fans of ABR. The message is being preached to people who listin to that kind of music on a regular basis, not to 80 year olds who knit yarn all day, not to children who like to play with gijoes, but topeople who like hearing a tough guy scream with guitar in the background.
Prophet - You are wrong. Only God can remove the blinders off your eyes to see that this music is demonic.
wbmoore
I trust in you for life to live, and air to breath.
Purity fills my lungs.
I no longer live in solitude.
No longer bound.
My heart beats with great devotion.
This is the start to a new beginning.
On my knees praying for mercy.
Hands raised high, humble and broken.
Wanting your grace.
Wanting your security.
Memories of laying face down, motionless, with such a hollow feeling inside.
Soon I would end this life I was living.
I am just a man with a heart and sinful hands.
I am a fallen victim.
Lord, show me the way.
I ask of you Father, let my words be your words.
Let my thoughts be your thoughts.
To you, I give my praise.
Show me the way.
Take me in your arms.
Never let me go.
Lord, show me the way, as I give myself to you.
Never let me go.
Hold me with your everlasting love.
Be my strength.
Be my voice.
Be my glory.
Set me free.
-August Burns Red, Redemption(A Christian metal song)
But Because this song is played using fast drumbeats, and Guitars tuned to drop C, this song apparently worships Satan in the eyes of some people...
Listen to the youtube video of the band playing the song Redemption. Tell me if you really can hear the beautiful words written above? I can't. If you can't hear the words you tell me how someone can come closer to the Lord just by listening to the band play the song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVPGRCUhvbs
star,
You hit it on the head. "But Because this song is played using fast drumbeats, and Guitars tuned to drop C, this song apparently worships Satan in the eyes of some people."
To some people. And some people think that intaking sugar or caffeine is a sin. Some think that any other attire for a woman other than an ankle length dress with sleeves to the wrists, and a collar that closes around the neck is a sin. And some think that eating meat is a sin.
But are they really? Don't know. Don't tell me that Christian rock IS a sin. Tell me that you do agree with Christian rock. Until you can prove that it is a sin, do not call it such. Until then, it is a personal opinion.
As prophet states the obvious answer to the argument only for it to be bypassed and ignored once again..
*sighs* How is music different from any other subject we have compaired it to this whole time?
star,
I agree with you. Music is neither moral or immoral. What makes it so is how you use it.
I don't waste my time listening to music that promotes sex, violence, drug use, and such. I listen to music that uplifts my spirit and God. Therefore, the music I listen to is not sinful.
Prophet
TV is neither moral or immoral. What make it either is how you use it.
I do not waste my time looking at sitcoms and movies inundated with sin. I watch Discovery Health; it is an educational type channel. The news is good to hear to keep abreast of current events and some different opinions about it (I watch FoxNews Channel). Occassionally, I'll watch a program on Animal Planet and occassionally something on the History Channel. Sometimes I watch prison documentaries on MSNCNN. I have an interest in the personal struggles prisoners have. It is probably because God will somehow use me to minister to those kind of people in the future. What I watch is not inundated with sin like so much of the movies, and sitcoms have. I do not use the TV to saturate my mind with the ungodly behavior and converstation of the world. Therefore, I am not using it in a sinful way.
How about you Prophet?
wbmore,
Amen. That's what I've been trying to get across. There is not "satanic" style, but it's all about taste.
If instruments and voices were used to worship pagan gods as well as the True God, perhaps we should not use either? I think instead we should praise God how HE would have us do that. And each person will be convicted differently, depending on the culture they were raised and came to faith in.
I know this from working with people from different parts of the world - each had a different form and sound. But the words all glorify God.
I am not like most of the people of my generation...
HMMMM Christian rock that has fast, upbeat tempos, electic guitars, where the band uses clean languege, and though sometimes the vocalist might not have the best voice, he/she uses enough emotion to to emphasize how much heart they have in their message.
I dont feel conformed to the world when I fianlly have the chance to go out with a really beautiful girl who i had liked for a long time when i wasnt so christian, but now that I walk with God again i choose not to date her because I know she will try to convince me to have premarital sex. I dont feel connected to the world when I decided to throw the 2 dollers i was going to spend on a soda for myself into a fundraiser box for kids who have cancer. I dont feel connected to the world when I sit alone in burger king praying over a double cheeseburger to give thanks that I live in a land where a decent meal is cheap and rather easy to get.
argyle - Define what kind of Christian Rock music you listen to.
Star,
Better turn off the TV completely. It's secular and satanic.
If music defines me than I am a very complex man. Because I enjoy all styles. There are some worship songs that I do not enjoy. Because they do not minister to me. There are many that do. There are Christian rock songs that I do not like because they do not minister to my spirit. There are some that do. The one major point? Lyrics. But that's not the whole package. Lyrics and music style go hand in hand. You could take a worship song and put it to grunge music and it would suck royally. (To which star would say "duh!" LOL). But there are Christian rock songs that if you tried to put them to more "acceptable" style, it would suck royally as well.
Being a musician, who is self-taught (or I would rather say Spirit taught), and I write, compose and perfom songs often. Have been in a number of bands, done countless local and regional concerts (both with a band and solo), I understand music.
God gives me songs. Some are more along the classical 6/8 tempo with all the classical tones and such. Some are folk, some songs are jazz, some have a little bit of blues to them, some have a rock feeling to them, and some are contemporary and worship songs. But each one is blessed by God, and given by Him. And each one worships Him or points to Him.
So, star, no there is no condemnation for the music I choose to listen to. His Spirit assures me of that.
I dont feel conformed to the world when i lose connection to friends i used tohave because i dont drink with them anymore, I dont feel connected to the world when i walk out of a room where a tv show is making fun of my savior even though the political jokes on the show can be hilarius. I dont feel conformed to the world when coworkers find pamphlets from the menonites in the bathroom and i get looked at funny when i tell them they should take tiem to read them. I dont feel connected to the world when I spend $300 dollers to go to Kansas to help rebuild tornado destroyed homes, when my friends would rather spend that kind of money to go on vacation to the beach to party. I could go on and on and on, but i suppose im too young to have a point of view arent i?
Prophet - I do not watch TV except for the news and an occassional program on Discovery Health nor do I read books except the Word of God. I spend most of my time, way too much time, posting on CP.
That's the question. Does the music define me? No. I listen to a style because I like it. God created music. He created the diverse kinds of music. Otherwise we'd all still be using lutes, lyres, and harps in our praise and worship. Decades ago, any music other than traditional hymns was considered satanic. Now we have worship songs. So now people say that anything other than hymns and worship songs are satanic. Thus they put God into a box, and tell Him what is acceptable or not.
I wish someone would give me scriptural reference as to what type of music is Godly and which isn't. It's not in the Bible. It's in our opinions.
I appeal to the young, take heed. Let not a worldly generation define you, lest you be deceived, embracing many of its carnal and devilish ways. Come out, and ask God for the old paths. Walk humbly, ever watchful, for "There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness" (Pr 30:12).
Weep before God in spiritual sackcloth and ashes, seek diligently, asking God to purge and forge you in holy fire. Seek not the "cool" and "acceptable" ways of a generation, slapping it with a "Jesus" label and therefore justifying it in your own eyes.
I exhort you to fast, pray, asking the Lord to show you the highway of the upright, and travel therein. Humble yourself, and allow the Holy Ghost to search, find, and put to death the food sources that continue to feed the old man. Be alert, for "There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up" (Pr 30:13).
Star,
I hope that you do not read any books or watch any TV. Even Christian. Because it identical to the world's TV programs and books except for the words.
Prophet
"Star,
God told me that the Christian Rock I listen to is from Him. So there is now no condemnation, though you try as you may to put condemnation on me."
Christian Rock music is identical to secular rock music except for the 'words'. God's Word says that you cannot know the good, acceptable, and perfect will of God if you are conformed to the world (Romans 12:2). Since you have not given up the world's music then you are still conformed to the world and you are incapable of knowing God's will in this area of your life. I rather doubt you heard Him in prayer, assuming you prayed. If something is an idol in your life God says that when you pray He will have the demons behind that idol answer you.
I flagged myself, i mistyped something....
And as for Christian rock music, I prayed what He thought, He asked, do you listen to it to worship satan? I said no. He said does the music make you destructive, or does it provoke you to live as Jesus did. I said it leads me to follow Christ. He said Would I rather have you worship me in music that made you happy or have you worship me in vain to music that made you uncomfortable? I said music that made me happy, and Jesus sets people free, so they can be happy in him. And His final reply was, you have much faith in what you are doing, and for it I cannot condemn you.
All this boils down to is peoples taste in music. Just because you don't like a particular style doesn't make it wrong. As long as the message glorifies God then He is worshipped.
Also,
I read your post on man's definition of what music is. I wonder what God's definition is....oh yeah..make a joyful NOISE unto the Lord.
To me Christian rock is a joyful noise unto the Lord. Because it is to honor God.
But it did preturb me that you commented that it wasn't the lyrics that makes music demonic. So I could write a lovely little ballad that follows all the rules that you posted, and sing abour rape, drugs, murder, and sodomy...and it will be alright...as long as the music is soothing?
I looked at what the Bible has to say concerning music. It disucsses song and music in terms of song being music made with the mouth and music being made with an instrument. You can have one or the other, or both combined. Different instruments mentioned include: cymbals, harp, lyre, tambourine, flute, stringed instruments, horn, and zither. Instruments have been mentioned in praising an idol (evil) and praising God (good). Music was mentioned in prayer, battle, praise, joy, lament, marriage, worship, and thanksgiving.
While there are examples of different purposes for music, and even different instruments, there are no obvious example of musical style. The closest we come is the purposes. I'd guess that music for a prayer would depend on the content of the prayer. One would imagine a marriage, joy, and thanksgiving would be happy styles. I think a lament would be, while music for a battle would be either patriotic or angry or sharp. Worship might be anything, or it might be a specific style. In fact, it might be a style that has changed over the years, depending on length of time spent in a given culture (an example is the language of the Israelites has changed from Hebrew to Aramaic to Greek for some to Modern Hebrew and Arabic).
Because Scripture is not clear on this subject, we have to go with the basic principles of the word. We need to use Romans 14, 1 Cor 8 , and 1 Cor 11 as our guidelines. These passages speak of nothing being unclean in and of itself. But if you are convinced something is unclean, then for you it is unclean. If something is not unclean for you but it is for your neighbor, then you should not do that thing around them, where your neighbor might be caused to stumble.
I think it boils down to what is sinful for you. You have to be convinced in your own mind one way or the other.
For some, rock music IS something that leads them down the wrong path, even if the words glorify God. This is not the case for all people.
The same is true for alcohol. For some people, any alcohol will lead them down the wrong path. For others, it does not. One must remember, however, that we may never know which it is for you until you try it. The question must be asked, is it worth the risk? Each of us must decide for ourselves.
The trick is to not judge anyone for it, but simply recognize the truth. If it causes you to stumble, you should not do that thing. If something you do causes your brother to stumble, you should not do that thing, avoid affecting them negatively.
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/are-certain-types-of-music-demonic/
Leviticus says
"Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
28Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."
Well, then I'm okay. I don't have any cuttings or marks on my body for the dead.
So what's the issue? If that is truly an issue, then verse 27 comes into effect and a man cutting his hair or beard is in contempt of the Bible.
well in that case id say He says as long as your not taking it in a way to escape the beautiful reality of your life, as long as you arent taking it in large doses to get a high. Go for it...
argyle
"If i was still in highschool and i had a crush on a girl, would writing "I <3 you" on my hand and waving to her from accross the classroom so she could see it, is that a sin too?"
I don't know. I'll ask God about it.
argyle - When I told you to pray yourself, I was referring to this statement you made: "Please tell me "what God thinks" because im beging to get a headache and i would like to know if taking an advil would be sinful?"
I have, and He doesnt mind me listining to Chritian rock.
argyle - Ask God yourself, you are a Christian.
Then how is rock music different from drug use? the purpose of Christian rock is to inspire people to follow Jesus.
argyle86
"what about Robotussin too, i can give it to a sick kid to help with his cough, or I can drink the whole bottle and "trip face" so i can connect to the spirit realm. Is it the drug that is demonic in nature? or is it the reasons for useing the drug that can be demonic?"
It is the reason you are using it that causes it to become demonic. Sorcerer in the NT comes from the greek word 'pharmakeus' which is where we get the word Pharmaist. It involves a spell-giving potent or drug. Sorcery is involved in mind control. Taking a drug to alter your mind in some kind of way is committing the sin of sorcery. No sorcerer shall inherit the kingdom of God (Rev 22:15). So, those who use mind altering drugs like marijuanna, crack, heroine, LSD, and etc or use a drug in a way that they get a 'high' from it will be considered a sorcerer. If they don't turn to Jesus as Savior and Lord, and repent from their sins they will not go to heaven when they die.
Then how is rock music different from drug use? the purpose of Christian rock is to inspire people to follow Jesus.
Star what about drugs, is the man made chemical DXM demonic, Some people drink entire bottles to induce psychedellic trips, some of these people trip and try to contact supernatural being through it. Thus being man made, and being a tool to comunicate with spirits is DXM demonic?
Or is it only demonic when used for these spiritual purposes... Because a small dosage can cause a person who is sick to feel much better and they no longer hurt.
jester_in_the_Kings_court
Dancing is of the Lord. David danced before the Lord (2 Sam 6:14). However, like anything God created, music or othewise, Satan can and does profane it.
2 Samuel 6:14 - "And David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod."
Prophet - Your comment to me about tattoos and cutiing your hair and beard only goes to show that you did not really read what I wrote or you totally misunderstood what I wrote. You need to repent towards me.
argyle86 - I know because I spent time in prayer for Carrot. Some of what I prayed about was what God wanted me to tell him.
argyle,
Water sucks...it really really sucks..
Gaaatoraaaid....
Please tell me "what God thinks" because im beging to get a headache and i would like to know if taking an advil would be sinful?
what about Robotussin too, i can give it to a sick kid to help with his cough, or I can drink the whole bottle and "trip face" so i can connect to the spirit realm. Is it the drug that is demonic in nature? or is it the reasons for useing the drug that can be demonic?
How about drugs too, If i can take codien to help kill pain from bronchitus or i can take it to get high, is the drug codien demonic, or is it the misuse to escape reality thats demonic?
If i was still in highschool and i had a crush on a girl, would writing "I <3 you" on my hand and waving to her from accross the classroom so she could see it, is that a sin too?
For some comedic releif i would just like to say that this whole argument reminds me of the movie "waterboy" when Bobby Buche's mom tells him that "Footballs the Devil!!!!"
star,
since you believe that christian rock is of the devil, i take it that you believe that dancing is of the devil too. am i right?
star,
If tattoos are of the devil, then so is cutting your hair and trimming your beard. You can't justify one without justifying the other since they are both together.
"God said that your music is not of God. He wants you to re-read my posts and seek Him about how He views it."
Star this post worries me, Just how exactly do you know God said this, and that God wants us to reread your posts. I hope you know the danger of saying what you just said. Self rightiousness is a very dangerous sin.
alex,
Don't forget that Satan was actually an angel of music/worship before he fell. According to the Bible he was actually created as an instrument in himself.
So, if you want to get really technical...all music and musical instruments are satanic. Or you can look at it through God eyes and realize that God created ALL music (including styles and genres), and that the only thing that makes them evil is what message are the words bringing across.
Prophet
The pagan societies practiced the cutting of their hair and beards as a mourning ritural when family members died. Since the Word of God does not prohibit Jewish men from cutting their hair and their beards we can conclude that God made the commandment in Lev 19:27 because He did not want them doing as these pagan cultures did. He told them to be careful not to be snared by following them and to enquire how these pagan nations served their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:29-30)
We also know that these pagan cultures cut themselves as a ritual when family memberes died. We also know that these pagans tattooed themselves but we do not know that they did it as a ritural practice as they mourned their family member's death.
We know that these pagan cultures that worship false gods know that there is a spirit behind their gods. (Exodus 7:11,22,8:7,18-19) Marring your body by cutting is a practice that idol worshippers use in order to secure favor or a miracle from their idol's spirit. (1 King 18:28).
So we can conclude that the ritural practice of cutting your body for the dead is demonic, and satan is behind it. The pagans did it to secure some favor from their deity's for their dead loved one. It would not be a stretch to conclude that satan is behind all their practices making placings tattoos on their bodies of the devil.
Satan always wants to get you to do what he knows God would not want you to do. If he can then he knows that a curse will be placed on you for having done it.
Tattooing your body is of the devil and is a forbidden act. The kind of tattoo you put on your body makes no difference for it is the act itself that is forbidden.
If you really want to get technical you can read Genesis 4:21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron.
These are the decedents of Cain. People who did not look at God. You could technically say that because these people were worldly when they created these tools that we can't use them and that they are of the devil and that all music is of the devil. We have to get realistic here. There was even a time when the church was referring to the internet as completely belonging to Satan, yet here we find ourselves on a Christian website. While Satan can use what man makes for evil God can also use it for good. Otherwise we should all live like the amish. Everything in creation belongs to God. This is why Paul says that when you eat the meat that was given to idols it is ok because you know that there is only one God and that the meat was given by him to us. If you stumble in your faith star because of hearing Christian Rock than the obvious thing to do is not listen. Yet please do not condemn. You can not say they are sinning because the scriptures says it very clearly that they are not.
The bible says that God looks at the heart and not the outward appearance. The heart of this music is giving praise and glory to the Lord. Just because of one small detail of them using a distortion on their Guitar does not mean it belongs to satan. To God that is actually very petty. We are trying to put a stumbling block in front of people giving their hearts to God because they do not do what we like.
By the way Star,
There are Christians who condemn you for listening to music at all. To them, musical instruments are not biblical and that we sing acapella (which makes even classical music unbiblical).
Star,
God told me that the Christian Rock I listen to is from Him. So there is now no condemnation, though you try as you may to put condemnation on me.
Star,
I am still waiting on your comment to verse 27 of that chapter in Leviticus.
Carrot
God love you. God said that your music is not of God. He wants you to re-read my posts and seek Him about how He views it.
God is the judge of whether a person is saved or not. The scripture tells us that once we become born again our old life passes away and we become new creatures in Christ Jesus (2 Cor 5:17). We are given a new nature after His own. We are not to yield ourselves to our old nature which is our sin nature but we are to yield ourselves to our new nature which is created in righteousness and true holiness (Ephesians 4:24).
Christians may sincerely believe they have been called by God to be Christian Rock musicians but they are not. Romans 12:2 implies that we cannot know the good, acceptable, and perfect will of God when we are like the world. To know His will we have to allow God to change our thinking to align itself with His thinking. Only then can we truly know what the good, acceptable, and perfect will of God is for our lives.
star
thanks for the correction I am writting during moments i have a few min to spare. my point being add romans 14, 1 cor 8 , and 1 cor 11 Paul comes to the same conclusion in each. We are to apply this to all of our lives regarding Christian liberties. The old laws regarding how to keep one clean and sacrifice to repent of sins were wiped away by the last sacrifice of Christ, and his blood washes us to keep us clean. It is by what is in our heart ie motives behind our actions that deems if it is sinful for us individually and we are being sinful if we know we are causing our brothers or sisters fall. I agree with you old law giving us direction on morality such as lev 18:2 and others are to be kept.
In short I promise you Star that I will never play my music around you.;-)
We have to make sure there is no misunderstanding in what Paul said either. When he says do not eat the meat if it causes another brother in faith to stumble he is not saying that the act of eating the meat itself is wrong. In fact Paul also says that it is ok to eat the meat because it was given by God. Paul is saying that compromising the faith of your brother is wrong. So listening to Christian Rock in itself is not wrong. Its just I would never listen to it around people who don't enjoy it because they think they are sinning. If you think you are sinning and you continue to do what you are doing then yes it is a sin. Because your heart is against God. It is not the act of what you are doing it is the way you view it as a defiance against God that is wrong.
Star,
I am still waiting on your comment to verse 27 of that chapter in Leviticus.
James Reynolds
1 Corinthians 8 deals with meats offered to idols. Romans 14 deals with those who are vegaterians and those who include meat in their diet.
When God created Adam and Eve He gave them every herb bearing seed, and the fruit of every tree yielding seed for food. (Gen 1:29) After the flood He expanded their diet and added all flesh to it. (Gen 9:3) He put restraints on what kind of flesh they could eat after He brought the Israelites out of Egypt. (Lev 11:1-47)In the New Covenant God declared all flesh clean if it be received with thanksgiving and prayer (1 Tim 4:4-5).
Eating flesh (meat) in the New Covenant is not profane in and of itself. However, if the flesh was offered to idols then it became profane in the eyes of some. Scripture does not imply that the weak believer did not eat meat at all only that he viewed meat offered to idols as profane. If the weak believer feels like it is wrong to eat that which is profane then it would be a sin for him to do so. If a believer sees nothing wrong with it and a weak believer sees him eating it then the weak believer might go ahead and cave in and eat it too but will later feel like he sinned because he doesn't believe you should eat profane meat. We are commanded to agape love one another. If you agape love someone you will not do anything that would cause a person to stumble or sin.
Now in Romans 14 Paul is talking about accepting believers who are weak in the faith and not arguing with them over whether eating meat is OK or not. Each believer will either stand or fall before God in their convictions. Paul said that if what you eat will cause someone grief then don't do it because we are commanded to agape love one another.
Star,
I am still waiting on your comment to verse 27 of that chapter in Leviticus.
I listen to all sorts of styles. I even listen to some secular music. I like rock, jazz, some rap (usually Christian rap), folk, country, classical, heavy (Christian heavy), contemporary, alternative, and praise.
Luke 9:49-50
"And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."
So when I listen to a secular song that is singing of love in its true sense, I have no problem listening to it. It makes me think of my wife, and how much I love her.
Randy Travis "Forever and Ever, Amen"
Phil Collins "Groovy Kind of Love"
Firefall "Just Remember I Love You"
Shania Twain "Forever and For Always"
and so on.
But when it comes to Christian music, I know the message is going to be Godly and right. Regardless of the style.
argyle,
I agree with you. When I hear an upbeat, hard driving Christian rock song, it brings my spirit alive! Especially when the lyrics speak to me. And as far as star not being able to understand them, that is why many Christian albums put the song lyrics with them, so you can know what is being said.
Skillet is one of my favorite bands. I love their Comatose album. I listen to their hard driving song "Better Than Drugs", and it ministers to me. And their song "Into the Black". To someone like star, it may sound like garbage, but to me it really ministers.
Star is my sister in Christ, and I respect her a lot. This is one of those topics that her and I will disagree with. But she is still my sister.
Yes when they get older their tastes will change of course. I actually don't listen to as much rock as I use to. I think you are right James when you say it is just a phase.
alex12
I am a generation x person, and that is how they taught us generation x is considered. when generation z comes then they will say the same thing for them. each generation gets passed down the same criteria
Romans 14 deals with the ability to eat meat sacrificed to idols. Pauls says as a christians you can eat it for you know that idol is not real and you may partake in it for you do not eat it to Glorify the idol, but eat it as nourishment provided by God. However, if your Brother is there and it was a part of his former life to eat it as a sign unto the fasle idol do not do it for it may make him stumble. Cor. deals with church practice where again Paul states that it is not necesarry to cover ones head to worship God if she knows her position in the church, however, if you have trouble obeying authority it would be beneficial as a reminder to yourself. Here again it is a judgement call. We are to use situations in the Bible to help guide us in our thoughts as to what is appropriate concerning what is in our hearts, and what will make a brother or sister stumble. these are two different situations yet Paul made the same conclusion. Therefore he made a pattern we are to use to discern how we are to deem something as sinful to ourselves and not to harm others in the process.
Generation Y by statistic is one of the hardest to reach generations because they don't just simply believe an advertisement or what someone older than them tells them. They work largely through word-of-mouth. This can pose problems when trying to save the youth because of how they interact. So in a way Christian Rock helps produce what we call "street cred" or credibility. It packages the message of the gospel in a way that they can relate to. The message should not be watered down of course. But an older generation can not do these things so it comes down to the younger generation of christians like myself to help them. Because if we don't reach them who will. Because of free will no one here will ever in a million years be able to force them to do anything. They have to want to do it. That is what real love is and that is the love that God wants us to have towards him. Just as Jesus said which is better then tax collector that hides in the back of the temple and beats his chest asking for forgiveness or the Pharisee that prays to God saying that he keeps all his standards.
Believer - Generation Y is the generation in High school and into mid to late 20's. Generation X is in their 30's and 40's right now. I studied marketing in college so these are how they categorize these two groups.
Christmas is a Pagan holiday created by the wiccan religion. The Catholic church made it an official holiday in order to win more people over to the church. The thing the church changed was that they decided to say Christmas was the day of Christs birth. The Christmas tree is a symbol of a wiccan deity called the green man. Yet still you will find many Christians through out the world and the US that celebrate Christmas and have a Christmas tree. God has the ability to take something that Satan created and used and turn it around so that it may benefit the Kingdom of God. If you look at the book of acts when Stephen the deacon was stoned to death the church came under heavy persecution but had it not come under persecution it would have never spread out. Just as God said to Peter do not call unclean the things I have made clean.
Still no written scriptual guideline specificly talking about music and how it should be composed...
Wilderness1 - Amen brother!
wbmoore
"I have a serious question. Has anyone given thought to whether something is bad only because it is done in the context of pagan worship, or if that thing is bad AND that thing is done in the context of pagan worship?"
My post to James Reynolds shows that I have. What side the person falls on will depend on whether they are trying to justify their sin or not,like the homos do, or they have understanding of what is behind the practice or they don't have understanding.
"I may be wrong, but I think this is the crux of the difference between those who see nothing wrong with things like tattoos and piercings and those who do."
Yes, I agree with you here.
argyle86
Please place Romans 14:14 in context. The Apostle Paul was refering to amoral activity not moral activity. Whether one thinks it is better to be a vegaterian or not is a matter of conscience. There are people who believe that the diet Adam and Eve had, which was vegaterian, is what God intended for man. And this is true. However, after the flood God introduced meat into our diet but gave guidelines on what kinds of meat to eat because some meats are healthy and some are not. In the New Covenant even unhealthy foods can be consumed but as with everything it should be done in moderation with thanksgiving and prayer (1 Timothy 4:4-5).
Paul said that those who were just vegaterians were weak in the faith. However, we are not to judge them because they stand or fall before God based on their convictions. We are commanded by God to show agape love for one another. If what I do causes a weak brother/sister to stumble or sin then I shouldn't do it because that would not be showing them agape love. Agape love is others-centered not self-centered.
What you eat is amoral. What kind of music you listen to is not amoral; it can be either moral or immoral. Romans 14:14 is refering to an activity that is amoral not one that is immoral or moral.
The little ones in Mark 9:42 is referring to children around the age of 2 yrs old to about 5 or 6 yrs old. You are 22 yrs old so this verse does not apply to you.
I have a serious question. Has anyone given thought to whether something is bad only because it is done in the context of pagan worship, or if that thing is bad AND that thing is done in the context of pagan worship?
I may be wrong, but I think this is the crux of the difference between those who see nothing wrong with things like tattoos and piercings and those who do.
argyle,
I'm glad to see you waking up to God and His word. You seem mature for 22. Find a couple of good preachers/teachers to sit under and seek what God would have you do for Him. Its hard making the transation to real life from college. But God has purpose in it for you. Seek His Kingdom and give Him the glory, and the rest will follow.
James Reynolds
"is the tattoo thing mean no marks what so ever or is it talking about pagan ritual markings?, markings that would be demonic in nature? what about tattoos depicting faith in Christ? I got a tattoo to glorify the oneness in our marriage that God gave me. I was under the impression this meant ritualistic markings...let me know if I am wrong"
Leviticus 19:28 - "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."
The pagan societies were polytheistic; they worshiped many different gods. The Word of God says that these gods are idols (1 Chronicles 16:26). Behind every idol is a demon (Ezekiel 14:4). If the societites practiced cutting themselves for the dead or placing tattoos on their bodies then they were driven or command by the demons behind their idols to do so.
If the inhabitants of the society were not commanded by their dieties to tattoo themselves then the desire for them to do so was inspired by the demons behind their idols.
The practice of tattooing one's self is evil because Satan is behind the practice. You cannot make righteous that which is unrighteous by Christianizing it (Job 14:4).
Romans 14:14
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself.
Mark 9:42
And whosoever shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it were better for him if a great millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Still no specific scripture with guidlines for music......
All based off of human understanding...
To all the young people, take heed. There is a noise, music without lyrics, which is from the grave. It is earthly, sensual, and devilish. It is a strange fire being offered up to God, and God will not accept it, no matter how many times you write the name of Jesus in the lyrics.
I encourage you to cry out to God for knowledge, and lift up your voice for understanding. Lay your self on the altar, offering yourself up to God as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God. Fast, pray, and study the word of God, for the wiles of the devil abound.
Allow the Holy Spirit to search deep and deeper still, until all idols and the former ways of death are uprooted and consumed in holy fire, until all satanic counterfeits and influences are revealed, destroyed, and replaced with that, which is truly of God.
What I am geting from the music is life, In taking away the joy i feel from hearing my music, that is stealing killing and destroying. For you it may be different, I see nothing wrong with the arangement of any music in itself. Did you ever think that tring to convince me that My way of worshiping Christ is evil is stealing killing or destroying me? Its ok to have your opinions but just because you see one thing as unclean doesnt mean you should cause another christian to stumble by telling them its unclean. Keep your opinion, but dont try to impose it on other belivers, causeing them to stumble.
The fast tempos of rock music give me the feeling of being alive. When I hear an electric guitar playing a powerchord, I feel full of life, I feel the way i used to feel when I was a kid, having fun and not being worried about the pains in this life. and if the words Glorify God at the same time, I feel twice as alive and full of spirit.
When i listen tothat song I feel like doing things that revolve around the teachings of Jesus, It makes me look back on the days i used to spend passed out on floors at parties and see how much time i wasted getting drunk, killing my body, dissobeying God, and reminds me that tose days of my life are over, No longer to i save money for the next weekend where i can waste my time doing destructive things that lead to death but rather i save money now so i can go on a mission trip to Kansas to help rebuild towns that have been destroyed by tornadoes, I dont go out to bars with friends to get drunk with them but I go so i can safely drive them home and on the way tell them how Jesus save me from that life and how he can savetheres too. When i hear the drums playing in the intro i imagin angels of rightiousness marching to war against dark armys of satan.
Is it the wordsand messageof the song that has more power, or does the arangement of notes have more power, Can a house still stand if divided against itself? Can Christ bring a soul to him by a song which satan has power over?
argyle86
Rock music brings death to all lving things. Research has born that out. The research was conducted by non-beleivers who had no agenda. Multiple researchers independently have found the same thing to be true. Classical music, for example, that follows the rules of melody, harmony, ryhthm, pitch, and intensity has consistantly brought a better life to humans, animals, and plants whereas rock music has consistantly brought the opposite effect.
Jesus said in John 10:10 that the theif (the devil) came to kill, steal, and destroy but He (Jesus) came to give you life more abundantly.
The devil brings death.
Applying the principle of what Jesus said in John 10:10 to rock music, since rock music negatively affects all life even to the point of death for some forms of life under certain circumstances (exposure to the music for a long period of time) then the author of the music has to be the devil.
Does a new day begin at 12 am as it does in todays modern culture?
Or does it begin at sundown as it did for the Jews back in the times of the old testement.
Is the word "Saturday" a tribute to the pagan God of Saturn?
Or is it a Greek word for a day that has been absorbed into the english language, with it's origin forgotten in time.
What we have is a situation of different preceptions, one person can see a picture of a red square and a blue circle next to each other, another can see it as a peiceof art portraying the differences of two diffret objects existing in the same place, though both objects are different shape and color, they are able to be seen together in one place.
Now is this just a picture of a red square next to a blue circle? or is is a beautiful work of art?
Star tell me where the BIBLE states what make the music demonic, please..... The only thing i get from your posts is the OPINION that YOU think the music sounds like a deamon. To me I hear a man proclaiming with a loud voice that he is set free by the grace of God. Give me SCRIPTURE of what God wants music to sound like...
argyle86 - I went to youtube.com to listen to that band 'sing' that song. The words are indistinguisable. All you can hear is some gutteral sounds that are embedded in what sounds like a demon speaking through a person. The 'music' is nothing more than noise. It does not follows the rules of melody, harmony, ryhthm, pitch, and intensity. Though the words are good the music is clearly demonic. Godly words will not make the unholy music holy. That kind of music will bring death to all forms of life if you listen to it long enough.
I trust in you for life to live, and air to breath.
Purity fills my lungs.
I no longer live in solitude.
No longer bound.
My heart beats with great devotion.
This is the start to a new beginning.
On my knees praying for mercy.
Hands raised high, humble and broken.
Wanting your grace.
Wanting your security.
Memories of laying face down, motionless, with such a hollow feeling inside.
Soon I would end this life I was living.
I am just a man with a heart and sinful hands.
I am a fallen victim.
Lord, show me the way.
I ask of you Father, let my words be your words.
Let my thoughts be your thoughts.
To you, I give my praise.
Show me the way.
Take me in your arms.
Never let me go.
Lord, show me the way, as I give myself to you.
Never let me go.
Hold me with your everlasting love.
Be my strength.
Be my voice.
Be my glory.
Set me free.
-August Burns Red, Redemption(A Christian metal song)
But Because this song is played using fast drumbeats, and Guitars tuned to drop C, this song apparently worships Satan in the eyes of some people...
OK, i get thumbsdown after thumbsdown, yet no one can reply with "scripture" that says that musical styles in themselves can be demonic.
Pipe organ music sounds pretty scary to me, is the old lady in my chruch posessed when she plays it?
i understand that the pipe organ is a truly holy and sanctified instrument. it must be. thats all the catholics use. even though it wasn't in existence in biblical times, like most of the things and practices in the catholic church.
maybe that's why Saul threw the spear at david. he didn't like grundge
power chords on the harp!! yes. yes. yes. david, the first true head banger (literally...look what he did to goliath) hahahaha
argyle,
people in the old testament probably thought the lute was a pretty wicked instrument. "it's the devils instrument!" "what kind of music is david playin on that harp again? it better be mainstream or else!"
i wonder if his harp had a distortion pedal?
And I sill havent been informed where the Bible says "thou shall not worsip with a distortion pedal, powerchords, and odd time signatures. For using an electric guitar to praise me and spread my good news is demonic"
Maybe its in watchtower magazine, I bet Elen White would know....
lets play a couple rounds of "Mary Sez"!
Mary sez....stand up!
Mary sez......go to confessional!
i've got this cool RCC braclet that says WWMD (What Would Mary Do?)
Exodus 32:2 "And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me."
Sons?
they'd probly tell us to ask Mary what she would do...
(Im waiting to sign in tomarrow and see both this artical's original argument and a battle between RCs and Protestants, look what youve done wbmoore!)
hmmm.. we could skip sixday and have two sevendays. The legalist could do sabbath on first sevenday and those who live by grace could do sabbath on second sevenday.
What does the tradition of the RCC tell us?
I bet the JWs, Mormons, or Seventh-day-Advantists could help us out... lol JK JK
heperion,
According to the Bible earrings aren't appropriate for women either.
We could but then as humans changing what day is first we might be changing God's law, and revalation says the Anti-Christ would do that...
and what if theres a missionary in South Africa that doesnt know we changed it, well be causeing him and the natives hes witnessing to to sin...
for one thing, many people seem to forget this nowadays.
marking refers to actual modification or damage(such as tattoos, piercings, cuttings) Earrings are only appropriate for women, and for men to have them is said to be a sign of rebellion.
Superficial things that can be washed off really doesnt count under 'marking'.
in my 11:10 post i ment to say noW my dad, not noT my dad, everything i do can be tied to a sin, i cant type perfect, ohhh the problems i have!!!
Or, we could start the week on oneday, then sevenday would be the sabath.
We just need to start the week on Monday, then we're safe.
AHHHHH this legalism is killing me!!!! lol
oops im not really being killed, thats bearing false witness(lieing) isnt it??
Shaveing is work, too and it was either on saturday or sunday, now which "sabbath" is the real one? the jew sabbath or the christian one? and by typing the word sunday and saturday i might unknowingly be paying tribute to the pagan gods of the sun and saturn by refering to the days by those names >_<
your right,i shaved the other day >_<
argyle,
Don't forget verse 27.
Leviticus 19:28 - "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."
Is writing down "dont forget milk" on my hand before i go to the grocery store a sin too?
Exodus said not to do work on Saturdays, not my dad might tell me to mow the grass this Saturday so i might tell him no, because God said so, but then again if i say no im still sinning because God told me to honer my father and mother.
Or were those comandments abolished at the cross? If so then why not the tatoo law, and the food laws, or are they still in effect? Or was it just the sabbath law? uhoh! I had a Pork BBQ sandwich today too, and it's unclean to eat pig meat, and also I had a cheese burger. Milk in cheese boiled with the meat of the same animal, what if the meat was the milk cows mother?! THats also a sin! Now, i can run around pulling my hair out in fear (fear is the mind killer, that comes from a destroyer) (pulling my hair out might be a problem too, because it hurts, and thats damageing "the temple"/my body) Or i can read Romans and Galatians and find out how faith in Christ sets a person free from the law of sin with the law of faith....
Makeup, cologne, perfume, etc...
All that is so that people will notice us...
Heres a good article along the same line of thought:
Questions Concerning Piercings and Body Mutilation
http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/family/questions_concerning_piercings.aspx
But, then again, the same thing could be said about the clothes you wear, the car you drive, the way you style your hair, the house you live in, etc.
Thanks Johnny. But I would rather you didn't tell me why I did it. Because you make yourself look like a fool when you do.
Actually beliver, im a 22 year old that recently graduated from college. I was raised as a christian by my parents but like many in my generation i fell behind in my relationship with God during college, and put living in the world as a biger priority. i could go into detail but basicly 2007 was a very bad year full of disapointment after disapointment. Eventually I found myself surrendering to God and returning to a life that represents a Christian life much more than my older life. By the grace of God Jesus helped me quit smoking, geting intoxicated at parties, cleaning up my language, lusting after women, ect. ect. Im not perfact but im a FAR cry from my old self, a new person. I never untill then realized what it was like to be born again. Youth pastors always said how its almost an uncontrollable urge to try to be perfect like Christ, but i never knew how powerful the Spirit can be. I sacrificed alot of friendships (I wasnt as "fun" to be around anymore), suffered many anxiety attacks from cigarett withdrawl, and left behind alot of other things that ment something to me. There were many times i felt like giving up, and one thing that helped me press on (and still does) were some songs from christian rock artits. I feel compelled to defend these artists not only because they helped me but because legalism almost dragged me into joining a cult along my way. I would hate to see someone else stumble over silly issuses like this.
When i stated about what id rather have my children listen to, i spoke meaning "if" i had children what i would rather have. I was expecting more along the lines of ppl picturing me as some guy with a mowhawk, tatoos, black fingernails, and a nose ring. (which is also not true of me) lol now im tring to picture myself 20 years from now with kids:D
Tattoos off religous things could be to draw attention to ones self, much like the scripture on foreheads of Pharisees or praying aloud in public. this would be sinful yes, but Christ never said not to wear scripture or not to pray in public if it is for the right reasons. if it is used to glorify God and not for yourself I think it is ok.
As for music again everyone needs to read Romans 14 where it talks about such matters of what is sinful and what stumbles your brother. It clearly allows us to have different personalities regarding preferences not clearly covered in scripture as long as you do not cause your brother to fall.
Star2 If by chance you ever entered my house and Jeremy Camps music offends you, I would play Amazing Grace for I love you as my sister, but you may see a grown man cry for it is a beautiful song that brings tears to my eyes.
Come on guys, I got tattoos as an unbeliever and the only reason for doing them is to draw attention to yourself and make yourself look "cool". Tattooing "Humility" on yourself is a contradiction.
believer,
I'll be praying that God gives you the opportunity to be used of Him in blessing those children. Regardless of whether it's a Christian camp, and regardless of whether you can speak about your faith, your service is seen by our Father.
hey prophet, I'll be out of pocket for the next four days I'm going to be a counselor at a camp for kids whose parents are messed up on drugs. Even though it's not a Christian camp I'm looking forward to seeing how God will use me there. So if anyone is looking for me let them know, be blessed as you serve Him, believer
oldstudent, when tatoos really we're becoming an issue in our area in Upstate New York I did a lot of research and called a number of ministries to include Focus on the Family and they all basically said the same thing you did. Even though it may not be a wise decision there is no biblical support to specifically condemn the practice other than when it's a part of a pagan ritual to honor the dead.
Well, I've got two tats on my left arm. One says "holiness" and the other says "mercy".
To that i'm going to add "purity". Then on my right arm I am planning on putting "humility" "love" and "faith"
James Reynolds,
If we look at the context of the verse quoted, we see where the Lord told his people to stay away from the practices of the polytheists around the Israelis. They would stick out in a crowd that way and since all of life revolved around religion back then (and in most of the world except in the west where there is official separation), those markings were as you said, for ritualistic reasons.
I have no tattoos and advise people to not get them because they are not healthy but not because it is forbidden by Scripture (which it isn't).
Grace and Peace,
Jim
is the tattoo thing mean no marks what so ever or is it talking about pagan ritual markings?, markings that would be demonic in nature? what about tattoos depicting faith in Christ? I got a tattoo to glorify the oneness in our marriage that God gave me. I was under the impression this meant ritualistic markings...let me know if I am wrong
star,
Don't forget verse 27:
"'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."
I do both. Boy, am I in trouble now....
Prophet - The Word of God says not to tattoo your body (Lev 19:28). If you do then you are violating a direct command of God. Satan is forever trying to get people to sin against God by disobeying His commands. Disobey God and you will give Satan a legal right to control your life in some kind of way. Hear the Word of the Lord and don't do it anymore. Ask God to forgive you for having done it in the past and to remove any curses you put on your life because of it.
Leviticus 19:28 - "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."
alex12, I know Generation X, but Generation Y is a new one, what exactly do you mean when you say you're in that group, thanks?
carrot, I personally have not seen anything rude in your posts in fact for a 17 year old you show a lot of maturity. But I hope you attend a church with a good solid youth ministry and youth leaders who will help you to develop the ability to discern the right and wrong in issues like this. At your age I did not have that luxury and made a lot of dumb decisions as a result, but God is good and brought me safely through plus I was not a Christian at the time either. Plus there is a website sponsored by Focus on the Family called Unplugged and they do a great job staying up with those issues that are impacting the youth culture today. They do movie reviews as well as talk to video games and music. Plus I'm sure there are other solid Christian sites that do the same thing. Unfortunately, Satan is alive and well and he targets the most vulnerable people to include Christians he can find. So don't try to do this journey to Christian adulthood alone, first and foremost hold on to Jesus and then as I said find solid believers who are willing to mentor and disciple you toward becoming the person God wants you to be. Be blessed as you continue to grow in Christ, believer
Let me give a little background I guess as well. I feel like I'm being super hard on you Star and I really don't mean to its just that you are the only one here supporting the view you seem to have which for me seems super extreme and I have some pretty strong feelings about the music I listen to and why I listen to it.
I'm a 17 year old kid who listened to and watched anything and everything found on MTV or the secular radio stations here in town for much of my elementary and middle school days. I was saved/started following Christ/was born again however you want to put it in 8th grade and the first thing I tried to figure out was what kind of music to listen to. I continued to listen to secular music with some Christian bands thrown in until I felt like God led me to the conclusion that the secular stuff I was into was changing the way I thought, acted, and lived. It was a major shifting point in my life where 95% of what I was listening to was thrown out the window. Now 95% of what I listen to is in the "Christian" section but it comes from all genres rap, rock, heavy stuff, you name it as long as it has that Christian label, I listen to it most likely. At this point I don't see a need to change what I listen to. I still listen to the occasional secular stuff like Coldplay or Jack Johnson for instance but I have found that that sort of music can be worshipful in a since for me as well. These musicians were given a great gift by God and when I listen to it I can't help but thank God for being awesome enough to make the people he gave those skillz because that music is so pleasing to my ears. The line for me and music at this point as where secular music becomes about the sinful things that inhabit this world such as drugs or the dirty nerdy or simply just the dream of "gettin' rich". For me all that stuff is trash and the rest I really have no problem with.
The reason I think I've been hard on you is probably because I deal with people who condemn certain music on a daily basis. I live about 20 minutes from the famous Bob Jones University and as you know they are super strict on things like music and here they are very quick to let you know what they think of the music you have playing in your car. I feel very strongly about the type of music I listen to and the reason and motive and the heart setting that I listen to my music with.
Now I'm not saying that I can listen to any type of music at all including the stuff that is all about being up in the club and all over so and so and have the right heart about it because I certainly can't and don't know anyone who could. However I won't ever rule it out.
So that's pretty much a little more reason of where I stand and what music I'm into. I'm looking forward to hear what you feel God is telling you to answer me with star. Again sorry if I have been rude or abusive in any way because I certainly don't mean to be so.
I think wbmoore spelled it out perfectly.
Maybe now is not a good time to tell Star that I have tattoos...and I am getting more.
I can personally say that I find nothing wrong with Christian Rock. I am a part of generation Y so I can relate to where many of the youth of today are coming from. I think Paul put it best when he said the letter kills but the spirit gives life. We can spend a lot of time picking apart the ones who are trying to deliver God's message and of course we will find faults because they are not God. Yet there is a real difference between Christian Rock and secular Rock. There is also a real difference in the musicians that play Christian Rock and musicians that play secular rock. I have over the past couple years had an opportunity to sit down with members of some famous bands like Delirious and Audio Adrenaline and can say these are individuals that have completely given their lives over to the Lord. I hope no one takes this the wrong way but I don't expect the older generation to understand. Whether it is Christian Rock or another issue there are always going to be different ways each generation interacts with one another. But let me say as a personal testimony I listen to Christian rock and I think I came out ok. After finishing college I chose to work in ministry rather than making lots of money in the secular world. Never at any point did I ever want to turn from God. My love and passion is to save as many souls as God will allow me to do everyday when I come to work.
We have to be careful about condemning what God is using. If you notice Jesus gives many different parables in order that many different kinds of people may relate to the message that he is trying to deliver. This is no different and this is what Paul means by the letter kills but the spirit gives life.
Carrot, I will address your posts but the Lord told me not until tomorrow.
Star2
Can you at least address the rest of my posts so far? What about the heart in all of this? What about the fact that God works and has worked in some sick nasty ways to the point where it is blasphemy to say that he can't or wouldn't work in a certain way?
Also to address your post answering mine, all the data you have given has been human opinion and for the most part simply research explaining why Rock music isn't music at all. The same research is out for rap music and I'm sure all other types as well that people dislike or can't understand how it can be pleasing to the ear for anyone.
star2, heaven forbid you could be the one who is taking your personal view of this issue to an extreme and the people who I mentioned are looking at it from a more balanced view and they are not either blatantly condemning all Christian rock music nor are they blatantly condoning all Christian rock music.
believer - Josh McDowell and Focus on the Family..."will not blatantly condemn all Christian rock and call it all a tool of the devil" because they either are blind to the truth or they are simply a bunch of cowards, or they bought into the lie that you have look, act, and sing like the devil worshiping Rock performers if you expect to draw lost people to a 'religious' concert in hopes they will respond to the gospel should they hear it.
I love Keith Green, The Imperials (from the 70's and 80's), Second Chapter of Acts, classic Amy Grant, Hillsong, and a plethora of other "mainstream" Christian artists. I also like Tait, Magdellan, Skillet, DC Talk/Toby Mac, Rez Band, One Bad Pig, Steve Taylor, and many other "hard" and "alternative" Christian music. To me it's all the same. I listen to the message. The music simple accents what is being said, and directs it at a certain demographic.
Isn't amazing that Moody Radio plays this type of music. Josh McDowell and Focus on the Family do not blatantly condemn it and as I shared earlier Josh several years ago went on concert with Petra and Tennessee Temple University has Christian rock performers come to their school and Liberty University is where several if not all three members of DC Talk attended and performed. Why is it that people of this caliber are willfully leading people into sin because they will not blatantly condemn all Christian rock and call it all a tool of the devil?
argyle, like me you realize God can speak to us through a number of means. To me that means you are a discerning person who I hope and who I believes allows the Holy Spirit to show you what is of God and what is not. Plus like me you have children who have grown up in a culture totally different than the one we grew up in and you appear to with the help and grace of God and the leading of His Holy Spirit to be raising them in a godly way so if they are not Christians already they will know what they need to do to become one and if they are they will desire to become more like Christ each day. My son is 28 and I know that raising kids in a godly manner is even more difficult now then it was when my wife and I raised him.
Oh, geez. It's not the style of music that makes it sinful. It's the message that is in the lyrics.
star2, please tell Twila Paris, Steve Camp, Micheal W. Smith, Ray Boltz, Robin Mark, and 4 Him that their music is leading listeners into sin because they along with a number of other Christian singers use Christian rock in some if not a majority of their songs and concerts.
there are certain personal Christian liberties in the Bible that allow us to have different personalities. The sins are clear and we should all refrain from them, but God gave us each unique personalities so that Glory and pride can be given to him. I could be 180 degrees different from you, while we are completely the same in our firm foundation of who God is and will always be. We may not worship together very much, but we should always be able to study and give insight to each other because our foundations are built on the Bible. The adrenaline junkie will love faster music, while the laid back will probably prefer slow music.(not always the case). If I prefer Christian Rock, but say my Christian friend can not stand it because it congers up memories of his past he needs to leave there, I will not play it in his presence. That does not mean his discernment of Truth is any better or worse than mine, but together we can help each other be held accountable and grow like Christ
Because Scripture is not clear on this subject, we have to go with the basic principles of the word.
I still think it boils down to what is sinful for you. You have to be convinced in your own mind one way or the other.
For some, rock music IS something that leads them down the wrong path, even if the words glorify God. This is not the case for all people.
The same is true for alcohol. For some people, any alcohol will lead them down the wrong path. For others, it does not.
The trick is to not judge anyone for it, but simply recognize the truth. If it causes you to stumble, you should not do that thing. If something you do causes your brother to stumble, you should not do that thing, avoid affecting them negatively.
"He isn't going to send you to the worse part of town with a beer in one hand, a marijuana cigarette hanging our of your mouth."
I would hope not, as Christians we are to stand out from the world by being sober, using clean languege, abstaining from fornication.
You must think all rockers are dirty mouthed, tatoo covered, sexualy active, drug useres. How wrong you are if you think that about me. Im curious to know what sterio types people have placed on me just by reading my posts.
Compare secular classical music with Christian Classical music, without the lyrics/message, its all just notes and time....
I want to see scriptual evidence that condemns Christian rock music. All the evidence provided against me has been supported by the evidence of a human's opinion on the matter. I see no scriptural evidence against musical styles, which ones are good, and which are evil.
I sugjuest that before someone says its a SIN to listen to a type of music that they read over Romans (particularly Ch 3) and the book of Galatians and learn what Paul says about the law, those under it, and the law of faith by which Christians are justified.
Jesus knows our hearts, but you dont care, you've already made up your minds, so go a head and keep judging people by what they wear, what they eat, what they listen to, how they grew up.
Carrot
If you compare Christian Metal Rock music with secular Metal Rock music witghout the words from either you will find no difference in the music.
My 4 part post to you on Sat Jul 26 5:42am, my 3 part post to believer on Sat Jul 26 9:13pm, and my 2 part post to argyle86 on Sun Jul 27am will explain why the music itself is demonic.
Rock music is polluted. Godly words will not make polluted music holy any more than taking dirty water and adding clean water to it will make the dirty water clean.
Star2
"What music do you think would more likely lead someone to the Lord?"
Each type of music whether from Sandi or a heavy metal christian band reaches a different type of person. There is a super slim chance that anyone in the heavy metal world would listen to the music you are talking about. So does that mean that the only method we now have of reaching them is instead of going straight to a huge part of their lives which is music that shapes it in every way we can only just talk to them? I think bands like Haste the Day are there to reach those people. Music is the center of many peoples lives and usually its a certain type of music that shapes those people. Christian metal bands are giving the people who choose heavy metal to shape their lives new lyrics to think about and a new lifestyle to look at and apply to their own lives.
"What music do you think glorifies Christ?"
Both hehe. There are so many ways to worship God and glorify him that it is just wrong for you to put a lid or limit on those ways. Something you failed to address in your posts so far was me asking about the heart. If your heart is in the right place who is to say that a certain type of music is glorifying or not? You can listen to Sandi Patti all you want but its only glorifying to our Lord and Savior if you have the right heart.
I noticed that you seem to believe that the people in Christian metal bands are simply not called by God to do what they are doing. I don't know if anyone else has been catching that but here is my opinion. I'm perfectly fine with you condemning people and judging them all you want because I know we are all humans and no matter how good or right you think you are with God you will never stop slipping up and sinning so I can forgive because I would be a hypocrite if I didn't. What sort of makes me mad though is the fact that you seem to put a nice little box around God with walls that fit what you want to believe about God. This may be a little rude but its honestly what I feel like you are doing here saying that God didn't call these people into the area they are in. Who are you to say where God would and would not place people? You can have your opinions and listen to what you want to listen to and live how you feel God wants you to but don't think that what God has for you is the same thing that he has for the rest of us. I have a number of good friends in bands right now that might be considered "Satanic" by your definition but if you were to sit down with these people and talk to them about God and life you would find that their heart is set on what God wants for them and where the Holy Spirit is leading them.
I guess a question for you to respond to is what exactly do you mean by saying that God doesn't call these people to where they are right now? Can you truly say that God doesn't work in this way and that he never will or has? Also what about the heart? Where is the heart in all your data and research?
believer
Re:"how have I or others in any way said we believe that God wants us to sin in order to minister to the lost?"
argyle86 in his Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:12 pm post seems to think so at least he gives that indication with this statement, "Sure you dont have to, but I belive it can help" to the question posed by JohnnyBlad, "As far as evangelism goes cant we go share the gospel with people without acting like them?"
Also, Churches and Evangelists have in a sense when they use 'christian' rock bands to 'draw' people to Christ that have singers that look like the world, perform like the world with all their strobe lights and etc., and play music like the world.
bradfreeman who use to play in a 'christian' rock band said that he smoked pot before a concert so he could get closer to God. That is something that secular rock band members do.
That rock music will draw the singers into a life of sin I don't care what kind of words they sing because that music is of the devil.
star2, and how have I or others in any way said we believe that God wants us to sin in order to minister to the lost? It appears you are the only person who sees it this way.
Yes believer, I agree with your statement that "we must realize that God has and does use a variety of means to draw the lost to Himself".
However, God isn't going to send you out acting, talking, singing, and smelling like the world.
He isn't going to send you to the worse part of town with a beer in one hand, a marijuana cigarette hanging our of your mouth, tatoo paintings (those you can remove by washing yourself) all over your body, a mohak if you are a guy, and if female, dressed in clothes where everyone thinks you are a prostitute.
I have spent time among these kind of sinners and never once did God have me dress, talk, and act like them. However, in the ministry I had to the skid row bums I did sit on the ground, lean against a building like they did, and talked with them, sometimes for hours, while they were panhandeling. But never once did I smoke cigarettes, drink a beer or their cheap wine, or cuss like them, or panhandel for money even though at that time I needed money. Well, only one time did I panhandle for money from someone I knew who use to panhandle but was now doing better finacially and when I did the homeless guys I was with were very disappointed with me and even though they knew I needed money they said, "We thought you were better than that Pat."
Believe me these sinners want Christians to act like they are Christians and not smell, act, and talk like they do. My homeless friends would have not had any respect for me had I been like them in this regard.
Jesus said that we are to be in the world not of the world.
While I was attending Cumberland College we had an evangelist come and he was going to teach the "preacher boys" how to act right for lack of a better term. At that time in the mid-70s many in the Christian community felt Christian men were to not have long hair plus he believed that preachers were to wear a suit at all times when out in public and of course carry a Bible. So for about two weeks after he left many of the "preacher boys" did just that and they had no impact on the spiritual life of our campus whatsoever. I remember sitting in the foyer of the auditorium where the crusade was being held and watching a young man with long hair come to the door and look in and then walk away and I wondered if he felt because of his long hair he wasn't welcome in that place. Several weeks later I had a chance to share the plan of salvation with him but he did not respond at that time. The only memory that most of the students had of that event was that was the guy who condemned guys who had long hair and caused the "preacher boys" to wear suits to class. Extremism in either direction can and does do damage to the cause of Christ in that we can become elitists and legalists or we can become so much like the world no one can tell the difference between us and the world. And yes it is the Holy Spirit alone who draws people to the saving knowledge of Christ, but God has chosen us to be His ambassadors to a lost world and we must be willing to do whatever He challenges us to do to be the effective ambassadors He wants us to be and we must realize that God has and does use a variety of means to draw the lost to Himself.
God draws people to Christ through the Holy Ghost(John 6:44), not through the christianizing of pagan music and methods.
Prayer is what moves the hand of God. Read about every revival in the past and you will see it all happened because one or more people prayed for revival. No gimincks of the world were needed to draw people to God or the Church. Here is one testimony that will bear that out.
Excerpt from
"The Revival We Need", by Oswald T Smith http://www.gospeltruth.net/OJSmith/revival_we_need.htm
"In a certain town there had been no Revival for many years; the Church was nearly extinct, the youth were all unconverted and desolation reigned unbroken. There lived in a retired part of the town an aged man, a blacksmith by trade, and of so stammering a tongue that it was painful to hear him speak. On one Friday, as he was at work in his shop alone, his mind became greatly exercised about the state of the Church and of the impenitent. His agony became so great that he was induced to lay by his work, lock the shop door, and spend the afternoon in prayer.
"He prevailed, and on the Sabbath called on the minister and desired him to appoint a 'conference meeting.' After some hesitation, the minister consented, observing however, that he feared few would attend. He appointed it the same evening at a large private house. When evening came more assembled than could be accommodated in the house. All were silent for a time, until one sinner broke out in tears, and said if anyone could pray, would they pray for him. Another followed, and another, and still another, until it was found that persons from every quarter of the town were under deep conviction. And what was remarkable was that they all dated their conviction at the hour the old man was praying in his shop. A powerful Revival followed. Thus this old stammering man prevailed, and as a prince had power with God."-Char. G. Finney.
google is awesome... :D
argyle,
Thank you for the scripture reference that I was looking for. I knew there was one, but wasn't sure where it was.
And i will agree with that star.
Prayer is what moves the hand of God.
"As far as evangelism goes cant we go share the gospel with people without acting like them?"
Sure you dont have to, but I belive it can help, Paul seemed to think the same:
1 Corinthians 9:19 He says:
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
I never said go to church dressed like a prostitute, However if you are trying witness to a person who likes rock music, introducing them to Christian Rock music (that actually has a good Christian message) and understanding their culture better may help you win them over for God.
Jonny,
That's the part I agree with you on. I believe that people should dress moderately when in the confines of a church meeting. That is a different environment than a concert. If a member of a heavy metal Christian band came into a Sunday morning worship service wearing their concert attire, I would probably have a problem with that.
By the way, Jesus did come to the synagogue "as is". He may have bathed, but his choice of attire was rather limited.
And wasn't it from Paul himself who that we get the phrase (paraphrased) "when in Rome, do as the Romans do." ? Whenever he was in another culture he did his best, within the bounds of the Scriptures, to fit in. And I'm sure that sometimes, to the opinion of an orthodox Jew, that he may have appeared "immodest."
Prophet,
While I think that we are sinning by letting women continue to come to church immodestly dressed I would never kick a bum out of church because he couldn't afford nice clothing, although I would encourage him to clean himself and wear the best of whatever he had.
In Ex. 19:10,11 the Lord told His people to prepare themselves both inwardly and outwardly to meet with Him corporately, and while Jesus may have been something of a "transient" I doubt weather he w