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Church|Wed, Jul. 23 2008 01:32 PM EDT

Grieved Presbyterians Seek Way Forward

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Presbyterians grieved by the pro-gay actions of the highest governing body of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) plan to converge next month to look for a way forward.

The meeting will provide a forum and analysis for around 200 PC(USA) leaders as they lament votes by the denomination's General Assembly in June that favored homosexuality.

The Assembly's actions "have caused a crisis of conscience within the denomination," said Renee Guth, executive director of the New Wineskins Association of Churches, a network of some 200 conservative Presbyterian churches discontent with the PC(USA).

The Assembly on June 27 approved an "authoritative interpretation" of the church constitution, allowing non-celibate gay and lesbian candidates for ordination to conscientiously object the current standard which requires fidelity in marriage between a man and a woman and chastity in singleness. The governing body also voted to delete the fidelity and chastity requirement – a vote that will go to the denomination's 173 presbyteries for approval – and approved changes to a document of the Reformed Christian faith that would delete "homosexual perversion" from a list of condemned behaviors.

Days after the biennial Assembly meeting, the PC(USA)'s top leaders sent a letter to all of its 11,000 congregations acknowledging the anxiety the Assembly created for some and the "storms" that are to come. The leaders urged congregations to stay together and not "act or react immediately" to the decisions.

But some have already begun acting.

"We have had strong interest from many PC(USA) pastors and elders from across the country for the Atlanta meeting," Guth and co-moderators Gerrit Dawson and Carmen Fowler of the New Wineskins network said in a recent announcement.

New Wineskins will be hosting a meeting for PC(USA) leaders in Atlanta on Aug. 6-7, ahead of their annual convocation.

"We are organizing this event around the needs of those in attendance by placing all options on the table, doing a side by side analysis, and spending more time listening than speaking."

Some of those options include being "in the denomination but not of it," they listed, and various forms of non-geographic presbyteries, among others.

While the conservative network typically holds one gathering each year, addressing both PC(USA) denominational issues and the larger missional vision of the New Wineskins, the group has decided to host two meetings this year with the Atlanta one focusing solely on the denominational issues.

"The Atlanta meeting is for PC(USA) pastors and elders who share our commitment to Essential Tenets, who are grieved by the actions of this past General Assembly, and who are now asking new questions and seeking new answers," the network leaders explained.

Attendees of the Atlanta meeting will also be introduced to the vision of New Wineskins, which consists of congregations that have left the PC(USA) over its liberal direction on theology and those that have remained.

The New Wineskins network, representing about 100,000 Presbyterians, was formed in 2001 after the General Assembly of the PC(USA) would not affirm the singular saving Lordship of Jesus Christ. Conservative Presbyterians began discussing what a church in the 21st century and faithful to Christ would look like as they tried to rediscover their Reformed and Presbyterian roots.

Their fifth convocation is scheduled for November in Baton Rouge, La., where they hope to move away from discussing denominational issues and toward the larger vision of the New Wineskins.

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  • Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:24 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    I used to think the Holy spirit was comfortable with me having premarital sex, getting drunk all the time at college, using a filthy mouth, then one day, after probly the worst summer and school year of my life where my sin and life problems caught up with me, i realized that i was a self rightous carnal christian, and that ever since some time during highschool sin had built a big enough wall between me and God that the holyspirit just kinda quit talking to me for the most part. So with some humble realization and repentence i began to start taking the Bible more for what it really is and although im not near to where id like to be yet, i can say for myself what it really means to be born again. Suck it up and bite the bullet. homosexuality is not moraly right regardless of what society might say. If you wish to disagree fine but it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for you.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    There have been more than one case of a Muslim father killing his daughter.

    wanting to divorce from arranged marriage: http://www.ajc.com/celebrities/content/metro/clayton/stories/2008/07/10/clayton_daughter_killed.html
    not wearing habib: http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/284350
    being infatuated with a Hindu boy: http://www.ibnlive.com/news/mumbai-girls-parents-get-life-term-for-killing-her/68686-3.html
    honor killings: http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm

    Similar thing for Hindu fathers:
    http://www.nbc5.com/news/14963989/detail.html
    http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2005/01-15July05-Print-Edition/011507200571.htm

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:29 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    I believe the Bible is complete. There is no 'to be continued' at the end of it. Now, being a StarTrek fan (who does that surprise?) when I saw the end of the second movie where Spock dies I turned to my wife and said "he'll be in the next movie". How did I know? Well duh...he was dumped on a regenerating planet and just how could you do another movie without him.

    My point? The movie was over...complete...done. In the case of the Bible we don't need anything else. We're not doing what we already know! I contains more than enough information to keep us humble for the rest of time as it is.

    Does that mean that God doesn't speak today. Of course He does. He hasn't changed. He speaks when He wants to and who He wants to. Still, there were times of 400 years where He didn't say anything.

    To me the Bible is the owners manual. The only difference between the Bible and other owners manuals is the Bible doesn't need revision. It stays accurate. Still, methods for situations change. I wouldn't talk to a Charasmainiac (I loved it when one called himself that) as I would share with a Bob Joneser. Still, the Bible is the same and the Gospel is the same.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:53 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin, no the Bible is not the only word we'll get from God, but if the word you get contradicts, violates, or supersedes the Word of God then you have not heard from God.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Interesting questions about the Muslim father, Daniel. It does seem a bit extreme, but I get your point.

    As far as majority rule is concerned, in our American system, the courts protect the minority from the "tyranny of the majority." That happened with desegregation, as well as with same-sex marriage in Massachusetts and California.

    You beat me by two, but our four children heard what they wanted to hear as they grew up. With the Holy Spirit, you hear what you want to hear, and I hear what I want to hear. I agree with that, too. We just disagree on the substance of what we each hear.

    And I don't think believer can accurately assess where what I hear is coming from. One difference in you and believer and me is that I definitely do not think that the scripture - or revelation - is complete. I would hate to think the Bible is all the information we will ever get from God.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:46 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin, but the Holy Spirit will never give us an insight that violates, contradicts or supersedes the Word of God. When that does happen then it is not the Holy Spirit who is giving that insight.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I guess Mike and I just get different insights from the Holy Spirit."

    All too often we hear what we want to hear. If we do that with our earthly parents (after 6 children I can give a witness to that) would it not stand to reason we do that with our heavenly Father? This is why you need to check what you 'hear' against His word.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "We have no authority over these people. And, in the United States, every citizen has equal rights."

    Actually, we do. America rules by majority vote. If the majority say it's wrong then that's the game plan.

    The following are simply examples of a point and not 'slams' on any and is an exagerated example to clearify the point.

    Let's take your arguement further. What makes something a right in this country? What if Muslims were allowed to follow their Islamic law based on their right to Freedom of Religion? Sounds good but if a child became a Christian then the Dad would have the right to kill his son. Would it be murder? After all, he was within his rights under the freedom of religion.

    My answer would be yes it would be murder. Does this violate his freedom of religion rights? Yep. Why is that OK? Because it goes against the sensibilities of the majority. We will see with the November election if this holds true for homosexual marriage.

    Now as for 'God's revelation'... God is consistant. You are either under law or grace. The law condemns homosexuality and the homosexual. Grace again condemns homosexuality but provides a way of salvation for the homosexual. It is only through the Grace of God that any of us can repent of any sin.

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:03 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    That's a thoughtful - and loving - rsponse at 5:25pm yesterday, believer. I guess Mike and I just get different insights from the Holy Spirit. I have no other way to explain it. Mike has certainly "prayed through" his situation. I think he has arrived at a place that God will bless. Just my quick, morning idea about it....

  • Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:45 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The question is not whether they are nice people; the question is do they love God. God said if we love him, we will obey him or we are liars.

    Christ said to avoid sexual immorality - this includes all illicit sex as defined in Lev 18.

    Matthew 15:18-20
    18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual IMMORALITY, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'UNCLEAN'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "

    The Apostles said to avoid sexual immorality.

    Acts 15:29
    You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual IMMORALITY. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

    More, Paul said to have nothing to do with people who claim to be Christian and are sexually immoral.

    1 Corinthians 5:9-11
    9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that YOU MUST NOT ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER BUT IS SEXUALLY IMMORAL or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

    John said if we claim to have fellowship with God, and live a life of sin, we lie and do not live by the truth.

    1 Jn 1:5-7
    5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 IF WE CLAIM TO HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM YET WALK IN DARKNESS, WE LIE AND DO NOT LIVE BY THE TRUTH. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

    Christ said to not sin.

    JOHN 8:11 "... Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

    We must OBEY Christ, OR WE DO NOT KNOW HIM.

    1 Jn 2:3-6
    3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 THE MAN WHO SAYS, "I KNOW HIM," BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 WHOEVER CLAIMS TO LIVE IN HIM MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.

    The person who chooses to live a homosexual lifestyle is going against what Christ said, what the apostles as a group said, and what Paul said.

    Paul said believers are to have no fellowship with people who claim to be Christians and yet engage in immorality, because God has no fellowship with the immoral.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:24 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin, I do not question their loving relationships, nor do I have negative feelings towards a person because they are a homosexual. The issue is the sexual practices of the homosexual lifestyle. That is what I believe God's Word clearly condemns. I have friends who are both atheists and agnostics, they too are good people, but the Bible clearly condemns there belief system with regards to God. My concern is that what they are thinking, doing, and/or saying violates God's Word and could cause them some very serious consequences which neither God nor I would want them to experience. And just because they are good and decent people does not negate the fact that these things are wrong in the sight of God. But the same holds true for anyone to include myself, when we sin it displeases God, hurts our relationship with Him and others, and if we are a Christian has a negative impact on the cause of Christ. But the good news is that God stands ready and willing to forgive us for our sins and cleanse us of the unrighteousness associated with that sin if we will acknowledge our sin as sin, repent of that sin and turn to God and receive His forgiveness and allow Him to restore us to a right relationship with Him.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Freudian slip: That "out constitution" (which sounds like some Gay Pride chant) should read "our constitution." Funny.....

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Daniel and believer, I think feetxxxl is right. I, too, though heterosexual, have prayed for the Holy Spirit to reveal truths to me. Now, I believe that the negative feelings I held years ago about homosexuals came simply from my own cultural biases. In my mind, I can affirm loving relationships these people have. This does NOT make me indisputably RIGHT!

    I could line up two panels of good, honest Christian people. Each panel could be 25 or 30 (or 100) people. One panel could made up of members from, for instance, the United Church of Christ, and one panel from some healthy, loving fundamentalist church. (And, my liberal friends, believe it or not, such churches DO exist!). Practically the entire panel from the first group of Christians would say God recognizes same-sex love. Practically all of the second panel would say, no, He doesn't. Neither panel could "prove" its point (using scripture or lawyer-like arguments or emotional appeals). This is just where we are today. I don't say you funamentalists are wrong, and you wouldn't care if I did. You can't tell me I'm wrong, and I wouldn't care if you did. More to the point, the thousands of couples in more and more same-sex marriages every day do not care what you and I say. We have no authority over these people. And, in the United States, every citizen has equal rights. These people are exercising their legal civil rights when they marry. If your church refuses to marry them, that's fine. You and I have no authority over the churches these people attend. (That's in out constitution, too.)

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I might take it one step further. The Bible is the Word of God and what it says is the truth of God. However, all of the books ever printed or ever will be printed could contain all the truth God knows.

    "why is it impossible for conservative believers to admit that anything written requires interpretation"

    Simple...as a parent my instructions to my children are not subject to interpretation. 'Clean your room' is clear enough! God says He is our Father. The only time my children tried to interpret my instructions is when they want to get out of something....

    We have enough trouble with what limited truth God gave us in the Bible. It's enough until we get to heaven.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:28 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin, I would use the word ultimate and not final. Because God's Word is the foundation for all truth. But that is not to say that God's Word contains all truths, but it is the standard for all truth.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    igh

    i live in fellowship with gay believers and attend a church that supports that orientation along with the church i first declared christ my lord and savior. in attendance and fellowship i have witness no spirit of denial,deceit, or delusion. and although one church is basically conservative anglican and the other is mcc. both are gifted in spirited and worship.

    if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another.

    i have tested thru reason that involved the scriptures of the old and new testament.
    Isaiah 1:18
    "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD.

    Acts 17:2
    As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

    Acts 17:17
    So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.

    Acts 18:4
    Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.


    and i have tested thru experiencing daily life.


    romans 1:19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Or maybe even:

    The problem is accepting the words of the Bible as God's final truth or rejecting the words of the Bible as God's final truth.

    As the United Church of Christ motto states, "Don't put a period where God intended a comma," which pretty much sums up the root of many of the disagreements on this Web site, I think.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Or, believer, maybe I should write:

    The problem is accepting the words of the Bible as God's truth or rejecting the words of the Bible as God's truth.

    Still, it's those words, believer.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    That's correct, believer. As I said, the problem is the words.

  • igh »
    Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    well cant wait any longer have to go, BBL.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:11 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin, the problem is not words, the problem is accepting God's Word as truth or rejecting God's Word as truth.

  • igh »
    Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    a little more info feetxxxl please, what test and how did you test? and as far as 'explaining my own understanding' you are referring to what God teaches me?

    And testing 'my own belief' well the Faith is from God, i was called. I listened and gave myself to Christ. I dont want to be lost. I am found!

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    igh

    you gave a challenge to test............i tested.... why is it you cannot explain your own understanding?

    is it because you have not tested your own belief?

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Except, believer, we get so stuck on the words, words, words, and we sometimes stop using the brain God gave us.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feexxl's post merits re-posting:

    if god's word is scripture.

    why is it impossible for conservative believers to admit that anything written requires interpretation.

    so when you are talking about your understanding god's word you are actually only talking about your own personal understanding..........your own interpretation of scripture.



    no one knows mind of god.

    all of us see but a poor reflection and know only in part.

    jesus said there is more that i have to tell you that you could not now bear.

    he also said i will send the holy spirit to convict you of all truth.

    we only walk in the light when we are fellowship in others, including those whom we might consider sinners

  • igh »
    Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    im not conservative , im just little ol me. i dont affililate myself with any 'party'. I was Called, Chosen and Faithful baby. Whats more i am called to be conformed into the image of Christ, to be a servant like him and to have his mind. So there ya go. I am also his Ambassador, Christs personal Representative, i have Authority to speak for God. Heres what God says to you now feetxxxl, come out from this world and its evil and believe on his Son who's blood was shed for you , your sins will be no more God will forget them as far as the east is from the west, and you will be his son and God will be your Father.

    Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:37 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin, so if one believes that the Bible in its' original autographs is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God they are idolizing the Bible? If one obeys the command of God found in 2 Timothy 3:16 they are idolizing the Bible? No, it's called trying to live our lives in accordance with God's Word so that we might be obedient to Him, draw closer to Him, become more like His Son, Jesus Christ, and be able to join God in the accomplishment of His Great Commission.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    God's Word is true whether you can test it or not."

    i have tested thru witness, fellowship, reason, and with the inclusion of all scripture. my conclusion is that scripture never declared homosexuality a sin.

    i would be appreciative if you would show how the words of scripture say it is a sin. from lev..... where not all prohibitons of themselves were sins, to gen.....sexual rape, to romans...........shamebased lust, to 1tim and 1cor.....concerning "malebed"....... as well as gen..... that a man woman one flesh relationship is one bonding(there is no only) that god has ordained to matt that there are those who given the word of this same relationship.

    in other words give explanation of how the words of the words of the verses say it is a sin rather than merely posting the scripture................which does not speaks to the issue of interpretation.


    if god's word is scripture.

    why is it impossible for conservative believers to admit that anything written requires interpretation.

    so when you are talking about your understanding god's word you are actually only talking about your own personal understanding..........your own interpretation of scripture.



    no one knows mind of god.

    all of us see but a poor reflection and know only in part.

    jesus said there is more that i have to tell you that you could not now bear.

    he also said i will send the holy spirit to convict you of all truth.

    we only walk in the light when we are fellowship in others, including those whom we might consider sinners

  • igh »
    Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wooo d hoop whoop! im enthralled! err what does that mean exactly? hlerwin your such a confusing guy :D

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:27 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    So, stop idolizing the Bible. Calvin might have you worship the printed Word, but Jesus would not. Pre-literate people were much freer than we modern
    "literates" are to be fully humanly spiritual. You and I trip over the written instructions, which, after all, were written down so very long ago (when you consider how long humans have lived on earth). As the London Methodist Percy Ainsworth, in his lecture on the Beatitudes, said (about 1905?): "The truth we are seeking will forever refuse the thralldom of words." Some of the commentors here on CP are "enthralled," I believe.

  • igh »
    Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    o contraire pierre feetxxxl, Listen to the Word of God,

    Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Romans 1:27 "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

    God gave these idol worshippers over to 'vile affections' they are unnatural, so there ya go. this in response to your last post.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    john14-6 posted scripture, prompting the predictable response in the form of opinion. To those who read scripture and flatly deny it's authority, beware; your opinion means less than nothing compared with the Word of God.

    feetxxl - you cannot claim to embrace the spirit of Christ while at the same time willfully ignoring His inspired Word. He came to forgive as many as would receive Him, but forgiveness begins with repentance. You cannot receive His mercy if you refuse to acknowledge the poverty of your current condition. Read and re-read His Word, repent of your sins, and choose to obey Him rather than the flesh.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Here's a suggestion: All those opposed the the new proposals (which still need to be voted on), just go ahead and join the PCA. It's still a tiny denomination, compared to the PC(USA). They can use you over there.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And again, after all, Jesus came to save people - not institutions. We are all so hung up on our "institutions." As Niebuhr said, once the change is made from "one" to "more-than-one," we start protecting the corporate entity. Why?

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You go to your church, and let the PC(USA) folks go to their church. The "pro-gay" members don't CARE what non-Presbyterians say about them. Do you get that, people?

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:56 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    these changes are happening because of personal witness to the fact that homosexuality embraces the fruit of the spirit in the same way that heterosexuals do.

    that spirit wise there is no difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals. both marital relationships have equal capacity to produce the same fruit(fruit of the spirit)

    that both homosexuals and hetersexuals love and worship christ with the equal sincerity and love.

    that homosexuals have never been found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. they are not less a brother, counselor, attorney, neighbor, soldier, father, administrator.

    that being the case why should the issue of marriage be any different.

    what i will be glad to see in these discussions about homosexuality and the understanding of scripture is when the posters start putting faces on those they chose to condemn as sinners.....................that is my cousin, brother,neighbor,friend,boss,etc is a sinner because.......own the plank..........

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:40 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    These are very tough times for evangelicals within the PCUSA. It seems that all the predictions made by past conservative defectors (e.g., in the OPC, PCA, and EPC) have proven true. Reformed and Presbyterian Christianity is still going strong; it just may not ever be again in the PCUSA. Now the legal battles for property will begin. May this be a lesson to all evangelicals -- that when the church absorbs the culture, the culture wins.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    They just chose different forms of apostasy.

  • Edi »
    Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:19 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    What about the Roman Catholic and Christian Orthodoxy? They might have their problems, but they are clear the homosexual behaviour is a sin.

    thepenitent Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:06 am : 0 : 0 Flag
    It seems that all the denominations with an ecclesiastical hierarchy have gone apostate. I believe it's a power thing. Power corrupts everything it touches.

  • Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It seems that all the denominations with an ecclesiastical hierarchy have gone apostate. I believe it's a power thing. Power corrupts everything it touches.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    “There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads...; this one will not admit Baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar...There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.”

    Martin Luther

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:09 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Another big dark denominational ship sails oft into the thick lurking fog of deception... by, by...

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:50 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    In my previous post, I shared the Word of the Lord. Any Presbyterian remaining in this apostate body called the Presbyterian Church U.S.A. should flee, because they are surely communing with apostates and sharing fellowship with them. The PCUSA has shed all vestiges of orthodoxy and sound doctrine. Flee this apostate body, my brothers and sisters!

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:46 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

    2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you.

    1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

    Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    Romans 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

  • Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:37 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
    Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

    The mainline Protestant churches have become compromised by the World. Sad, but prophesied.

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