Sunday, November 08, 2009 Last Update:11:25 am ET

Society|Tue, Jul. 29 2008 08:51 AM EDT

Ballot Summary on Calif. Marriage Amendment Changed

By Lawrence Jones|Christian Post Reporter

SAN FRANCISCO — The ballot summary to California's amendment to protect marriage has been rewritten.

  • marriage
    (Photo: AP Images / Rich Pedroncelli)
    In this file photo, demonstrators carrying signs against same-sex 'marriage' are seen across from the Sacramento County Clerk/Recorders office where dozens of gay and lesbian couples were waiting to obtain marriage licenses in Sacramento, Calif. on Tuesday, June 17, 2008.

The description to Proposition 8, known as the "California Marriage Protection Act," originally stated that the measure would amend the California Constitution "to provide that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

But the modified version, which will be published in the voter information guides this fall, describes the marriage initiative as amending the state Constitution to "eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry."

The original ballot summary appears in the second sentence of the revised description.

The new language also suggested a negative fiscal impact in the short term.

"Over the next few years, potential revenue loss, mainly sales taxes, totaling in the several tens of millions of dollars, to state and local governments. In the long run, likely little fiscal impact to state and local governments," reads the revised summary.

The old summary read: "The measure would have no fiscal effect on state or local governments. This is because there would be no change to the manner in which marriages are currently recognized by the state."

The secretary of state's office says that description was changed to reflect a May 15 California Supreme Court ruling legalizing same-sex "marriage," according to The Associated Press.

Meanwhile, a battle is brewing over the supporting and opposing arguments for the measure that will be published in the voter information pamphlets.

Supporters of Prop. 8 argue that if the ruling allowing gay "marriage" is not overturned, public schools would be required to teach that same-sex "marriage" is the same as traditional marriage in health education programs that would target pupils as early as kindergarten.

Critics of the measure contend that such arguments are a "smokescreen" and that California law prohibits schools from teaching family and health issues to children without parental consent.

But Jennifer Kerns, spokesperson for the Yes on 8 campaign, disagrees.

Citing the California Education Code, she said that state law requires teachers to instruct children about marriage in health education classes and that such programs are required under law to include instruction on "the legal and financial aspects and responsibilities of marriage," the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

That means students at every grade level must now be taught that same-sex "marriage" is the same as opposite-sex marriage, Kerns told the newspaper.

"We should not accept a court decision that results in public schools teaching our kids that gay marriage is okay," Prop. 8 supporters say in ballot arguments, according to the local Chronicle. "That is an issue for parents to discuss with their children according to their own values and beliefs. It shouldn't be forced on us against our will."

If Californians pass Prop. 8 in November, it wouldn't be the first time voters affirmed marriage as only between a man and a woman. In 2000, over 61 percent approved a law that protected the traditional definition of marriage.

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  • Tom »
    Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    But don't you see mike this is the same ole stuff right out of the Bible, Gods word it is what you need to make it mike to His heaven. He is the same today as yesterday as tomorrow. roll your eyes mike, dont you think your same ole same ole arguements bore us to tears. half the time they are not even read anymore. But the words that are being spoken to you are the words of eternal life mike, not death. i believe God is calling you, drawing you near to Him. He wants to show you His love, a perfect Love, a healing Love, one that can change you and your perspective. roll your eyes mike but seak His Kingdom not your. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom

  • Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Tom, for once could you post something other than typical Christian rhetoric? I do nothing but glance over it and roll my eyes.

  • Tom »
    Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Don't you see mike we all are praying for you. To see the light that God sent into the world Jesus Christ. It is this same Jesus who died for you and when you surrender your will to His. He can change you into what He wants you to be and that is Holy and righteous. but you must first accept jesus as Lord and turn from your sins, all of them. Walk the narrow road that leads to life, eternal life with God Himself. As you walk this walk protected by the righteousness of Jesus Christ, by His blood. You will be transformed by the renewing of your mind. As you do this He will pour out His, (God) love into you by His Spirit. A love you have never known one that can and will cleanse you of all unrighteousness. Do you hear Him mike He is calling, trying to draw you near. Listen to Him. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Im not a toddler. Please, if you pray for me, pray that God's will be done, not "Jesus, cleanse this sinner of his sin!" As you don't really know that's God's will, I think it would be quite the arrogant prayer, agreed?

  • Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I'm not making assumptions. I'm just saying that I do love you as much as I love myself. But you can spout off how I don't, but I'm used to it. When my kids were toddlers and I told them that I didn't want them doing something they thought was okay, they used the same argument "You don't love me! Or else you'd let me do what feels good!"
    And as much as you try and deny it, I do love you as much as I love myself. That's why I pray for you.

  • Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, you're making a lot of assumptions about my love with my partner which you most certainly know nothing about. Of course I want this love: It keeps me in check, it challenges me to be a better person, it raises my spirits so that I can then go out and show more love to my students and those around me. My love for my partner and his for me does exactly the same as your love for your wife.

  • Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike,
    But it is you who doesn't understand. I do love you like I love myself. I wouldn't allow myself to be caught up in the sin of homosexuality, and so I love you enough to not want you to either. The point is, that you don't want that kind of love. You think that love says "do whatever you want. it's okay. there is no consequences for your action."
    But love actually says "Please stop. Don't you see what you're doing? Don't you realize what's going to happen if you keep sinning? I don't want you to get hurt."

    So you can preach at me all day long about loving you (and other homosexuals) as I love myself. Becuase I do.

  • Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike2685,
    "Historically, he was writing against the Pagans. "

    I agree. But my point is that Paul said these things happened to them because they put created things in the place of God. This is what we are to NOT do. Some people would do the things spoken of as bad in context of a religious ritual, but others did the same things in other contexts.

    My point is that the things mentioned in Romans 1 as bad were spoken of as bad, regardless of context.

  • Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    in romans 1, I don't see him talking about who "they" really were either. Historically, he was writing against the Pagans.

  • Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike2685,

    Look at Romans 1 again, because I do not see any mention of a pagan ritual orgy. I simply see people who replaced God with something created, and they were given over to the desires of their hearts for it. They were given over to sin (which was shameful, unnatural, indecent, perversion) because they put their ideas above God Himself.

  • Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You clearly disagree prophet, stop acting as if you don't understand, that tactic is getting old with "Christians." Doreen, I do agree. I know the message of Jesus, and the greatest rule was to love others as we love ourselves, to love God with all our heart, and to do unto others as we'd have done to them. I guess many of these "Christians" want people to condemn them for each little step out of bounds they take.

  • Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I agree. We need to concentrate on the Spirit of the Word, which says sin is sin and it will separate us from God. So I choose to refrain from sin.

  • Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Personally, I think I can do more of God's work if I trust myself, in my God-given abilities, to make good judgments in His name. Without worrying too much about the exact words...and concentrating more on the Spirit within those words. Carrying on what He is REALLY about.

  • Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Personally, I'd rather not find out AFTER it's too late.

  • Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Right, such as attending orgies all the time, which is something I don't do. Rather, i will adopt children in need of a loving, stable environment which my partner and I create with love. If you believe God will condemn me for that, nothing I can really say except I disagree and we'll all find out one day.

  • Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Homosexuality is a sin.
    Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    And for those who would say that the Scripture uses the word "lust" and homosexuals don't lust after each other, they love each other.

    The word "lust" in this verse is the only time this particular word is used. "orexis", which simply means "longing for".
    So we see that even longing for another person of the same sex is wrong.

  • Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:55 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Mike,
    You said " I don't think God would condemn someone who has led an extraordinary life of service because they didn't root every task into a quote from scripture."
    True. But there are some things that the Scriptures say that if you practice, you will not inherit the Kingdom of God...no matter how "extraordinary" of a life you've led.

  • Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    God's truth, but what God has to say in the Bible reaches everyone differently. Like I'm sure you've picked up, I am very stubborn. I do not learn well through reading, I learn through doing something myself. Jesus is the great teacher, and so just like I do with my students, Jesus teaches us through more ways than just the Bible. He certainly is alive and moving within me, as I believe he is within everyone, whether they acknowledge his presence as God, as Cosmos, whatever. I think almost everyone has language that in some way points to a higher, shared power that flows through the universe and keeps us on the straight and narrow as far as morals go. Ultimately, I think we all believe in the same truths (there is no greater love than to lay your life down for a friend, what goes around comes around. that everyday we have the power to make someone's life better, or to make it miserable.) Regardless of if you've never picked up a BIble, you have morals instilled in you. While you learn through studying the Bible, many learn through doing, and through their conscience. I don't think God would condemn someone who has led an extraordinary life of service because they didn't root every task into a quote from scripture.

  • Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:00 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    doreen doesn't pay much attention to what I post. Let me repost what I had written.

    Sorry, they're not my beliefs. They're God's truths. If you don't want to admit they exist...well, you'll still be judged by them.

  • Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:54 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Ah, Prophet, now I see. Your individual beliefs are the one and only truth and everybody else is wrong, and they just don't know it. That is some ego you have.

  • Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Prophet, don't lecture me on what Christianity is. I know well your brand of it, and I reject it."
    We already know you reject the truth. You've shown it over and over.
    "In the end, the simple fact is you want to limit the secular freedoms of OTHERS based on YOUR beliefs. Not gonna happen."
    Sorry, they're not my beliefs. They're God's truths. If you don't want to admit they exist...well, you'll still be judged by them.

  • Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:22 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "So....as in democracy, Christian "truths" hinge on what the majority say?"

    That is not what I said. At all.

    "If Jesus were alive today, doreen would be lambasting him too."

    False.

    "He doesn't realize that Jesus was a minority."

    False.

    Prophet, don't lecture me on what Christianity is. I know well your brand of it, and I reject it.

    In the end, the simple fact is you want to limit the secular freedoms of OTHERS based on YOUR beliefs. Not gonna happen.

  • Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jester, you were flagged for spamming and for creating a false name. If you continue, you will be reported to Christianpost for attempting to incite arguments rather than contributing to the conversation.

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Let me see if I can post it again. I was congratulating mike2685 and doreenied for their ability to stand up against you religious extremists. I know how they feel. I get the same opposition when I talk to people about our cause. But it's nice to know that you have others that do support you. That you're not out there on your own. So I just wanted to tell them to hang in there.

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike please expand how exodus lies. I know very little about them. Also is it they are lying or you disagree with them, for may say they worked for them. I know scripture is suffecient for al problems though. Have you heard of NANC counselors. NANC stands for national assocoiation of neuthetic(sp ?) counseling. They counsel on a variety of subjects. It is strictly biblical without any seculiar opinion added in.

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike
    God is infallible to say Christ's opinions or commands would be different today is to say God got it wrong in the first place. If yoou feel that someone is making you out to be foolish or a heathen maybe it is the spirit trying to convict you.

    Doreenied
    you do not know me and you spout off at the mouth for not knowing anyone. You are judging people rather than their sin. If you knew me, you would know that waht you said is far from the truth. I posted before one of our best lady friends considers her to be lesbian, she knows our position, and we love her dearly. in fact my wife is there now as I post to console her in a death in the family. If you are a believer you should apologize for your actions and judgements. I do not attack people here but I will disagree on your positions.

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    What happened to my message?

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Actually JC, I know for a fact Exodus doesn't work and that its founders lie through their teeth, so I most certainly am not standing on hope there. That is called fact, sorry. As far as God goes, everyone stands on hope. We can try all we want, but no one knows if they're going to heaven or not, so yes, I am hoping God will see that I have loved, I hve hurt, and that I have followed him according to how the holy spirit moved me.

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I guess I shouldn't laugh. Willfull ignorance of sin isn't funny.

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hahahahaha. He said: "to me a small group of people who hold a view focused substantially narrower than the majority's, and who show complete disregard for anyone's view but their own as acceptable, are "extremists.""
    So....as in democracy, Christian "truths" hinge on what the majority say? Hmmm. Interesting.
    If Jesus were alive today, doreen would be lambasting him too. He doesn't realize that Jesus was a minority. So, if I'm in the minority then I am in great company.
    You see, true Christianity doesn't follow cultural trends. It doesn't submit to majority opinions. There are millions of people who call themselves Christians. They are Christians in the fact that they have accepted Christ into their life. But that's where it ends. There is no change of lifestyle. No acknowledgement of God's power or holiness. It is merely a religion. A way to ease their conscience, and hopefully secure their place in heaven. And they will recieve the reward for their works: nada.
    But there is a minority, or remnant, who will sacrifice all their fleshy sins, and acknowledge that God wants us to live holy. They will not bow to lust, anger, bitterness, lies, deceit, drunkeness, homosexuality, adultery, etc, etc. But they will seek to separate themselves from that which separates them from God. They will wage the war on Hell, and will prevail. That is the true Church of God. It's not built on numbers. It's built on Truth and holiness. Love and mercy are it's pillars. Truth is it's weapon.
    Only those who overcome will be granted the priviledge of sitting with Christ on His throne, and ruling with Him. Christianity is not a vacation. It's a spiritual war. And those who view it as a vacation call those who know it's a war "extremists". I wonder what they're gonna think of those "extremists" when we all get to heaven, and those "extremists" are sitting with Christ on His throne?

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    JC, I apologize. That probably came across more harshly than I want to be, and that's unnecessary. I'm sorry.

    I think I'm frustrated because while I do enjoy lively debate and intellectual stimulation, to be honest sometimes arguments like yours come across to me as almost cult-like, and I don't see the benefit of engaging if we are that far from even being able to acknowledge common ground.

    But again, I'm sorry for my harshness.

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    JC, spare me your self-righteous Bible quoting. I know your type. Nothing I could possibly say will make the slightest difference to you. You will dig up another quote that supports what you already think, without using even the tiniest bit of your God-given individual brain, like a robot.

    Believe me, I understand your way of viewing things, and I reject it. Isn't that enough for you?

    You don't really want to know what I think, as in engaging conversation or intelligent debate. So why bother asking? I suspect your holier-than-thou comebacks make you feel more secure in your own beliefs. You don't need me for that.

  • JC »
    Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To Doreenied:

    You said: "JC, to me a small group of people who hold a view focused substantially narrower than the majority's, and who show complete disregard for anyone's view but their own as acceptable, are "extremists.""

    Jesus said: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

    It doesn't matter what the majority thinks, it only matters what God thinks.

    Again, I ask, what are you standing upon?

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    JC, to me a small group of people who hold a view focused substantially narrower than the majority's, and who show complete disregard for anyone's view but their own as acceptable, are "extremists."

    It's like the line between Muslims and radical extremist Muslims. Most of the people I've ever known or associated with have been Christians, but only a handful speak the way you and several others here on this site do. It's harsh and unyielding, and in my opinion differs significantly from most Christians.

    I'm sure you disagree, and I don't know why you ask in the first place. I'm not about to convince you of anything.

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    doreen,
    "It especially tickles me how you brand a heathen anyone who doesn't fit into your narrow little view of what it is to be Christian..." My narrow little view is only dictated by the Bible's narrow view. So if you have a problem with my view, take it up witht the One who wrote the Book.
    And to think that I hate homosexuals shows you how little you know of me, and God. But I guess whenever you tell someone that what they love doing is wrong, you're gonna be branded as "intolerant". But yet, these same "tolerant" homosexuals (and their proponents) will treat their children the same way. Hypocritical at best.

  • JC »
    Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike2685:

    So, from what I can read from your post, you admit you are standing on the following:

    Hope that Exodus' studies are in error.
    Hope that the Exodus co-founder is lying through his teeth.
    Hope that God will include the word "may" into His word later concerning the union between two indivduals becoming one flesh.
    Hope that the culture that Jesus was in at the time dictated His words, His thoughts, His infinite wisdom.
    Hope that since gays are no longer stoned to death, that it must now be acceptable by God's standards.
    Hope that Jesus had a total foreign concept of two men marrying that He didn't bother to think of it or address it.
    Hope that what is in your heart outweighs what is written.


    You who are so loved by God, you are standing upon hope, and hope alone. You are leaning upon your own understanding, which is finite, not God's which is infinite.

    It would appear you are a little torn between two existences, one you know to be truthful, the other you are not sure anymore. The tug of the Holy Spirit is calling you and confusing you at the same time. If this were not true, you wouldn't be here attempting to justify that which you stand upon. You're looking for truth and justification, but you are looking to other's understanding. Not God's. Read His word beloved, read it. For that's where you will find the wisdom and knowledge you seek.

    Which has more weight. God's wisdom or man's wisdom. Which will last forever? Which will stand as a rock?

  • JC »
    Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To doreenied:

    You said: "We could go round and round all day if you want, but what's the point? I'm merely expressing my opposing view because some of the things I see written here by you, believer, JC, wbmoore and others come across as extremist and homophobic, masquerading as righteous religious fervor, but begging to be stood up against by folks less extreme and homophobic."


    In the above sentence, you called us extremists. I'm curious, when did it become an extremist position for a Christian to be obedient to God's word? Are we not told to speak truth, speak life, speak love? Are we not told to share His Gospel? Is it not written that His all Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness?

    What exactly is your definition of an extremist?

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The lies come in when Christians believe that groups like Exodus are truthful in their studies. Reparative therapy DOES NOT work, and the cofounder of NARTH himself found that it doesn't (although he won't admit it, but his study has been published and is entirely lacking in credibility or scientific method.) God never contradicted himself. He never said "marriage may only be between a man and a woman.' When Jesus spoke, he was speaking to the groups of people in a way they would understand him. I think if he were to come back today, he would have female apostles, but at the time he was alive, people wouldn't have listened to him if he was talking and had female apostles. Similarly, "gays" were stoned to death back then, so the idea that 2 gay men would ever ask to be married was so foreign to them that there was no point in Jesus speaking to it. I truly wonder what Jesus would say about it today, because I know what is in my heart, and I can tell you, it most certainly is not lust for my partner.

  • JC »
    Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To Mike2685

    No offense intended by calling you "dear one". Most non-Christians do not understand and are apprehensive and it does have a tendency to irritate some. But, let's be clear, works without love is worthless. What profit do I have to only love those who love me? His love for us has no limits. His love for us is the very fabric of the covenant.

    So, for now, let's leave love out of it, for just a second. Let's look at this logically instead, for science seems to be of interest to us both.

    We know that we both believe in God. This is fact. We both know that Jesus is the Messiah, the Lamb of God. And we both know that the Holy Spirit was sent to bring remembrance to us what Jesus said. Are these not also fact? If not, then we are not standing on equal footing already.

    Okay, God is just and undeniably incapable of making a mistake or contradicting Himself. If He were, logically, He would not be God. If God's definition of marriage in antiquity was for one man and one woman to become one flesh, then even in present times, this would still be the case. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to negate or replace it. He made this claim itself. Jesus said that He and the Father are one. If God's position was one of unacceptance, then, logically, Jesus' position would be identical.

    Therefore, brother, why do you say I am guilty of "Christian bias" and "spreading lies", if logically, I am standing on what is logical? How is it Christian bias and spreading lies by repeating what is written by the very Christ we claim as Messiah? Logically, this is an impossibility.

    So, I ask you once again, what are you standing on?

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Oh please, Prophet, be serious. Like I ever had any credibility with someone like you.

    Let me reiterate since you're not listening: I do not call all Christians homophobic. Far from it! I am calling fringe Christian extremists homophobic. Essentially I'm drawing a line between your ilk and the vast majority of Christians that I've ever known.

    Why are you being so argumentative about this? If you really must know where I draw the differentiating line between my feelings and yours I'll spell it out for you.

    Your attitude toward gay people--all of them no matter what, merely by virtue of them being gay in the first place--is an aversion. Because it's a blanket feeling toward an entire group of people, regardless of what kind of people they are in their hearts, minds, capabilities, whatever, I have a strong case to make in calling that aversion of yours "irrational." You have an irrational aversion.

    My attitude, that I've described as disdain, is toward a very narrow group of people (within the overarching group of all Christians), and on very specific grounds (predicated specifically on your irrational aversion), which I think makes my case that mine is a far more rational feeling (i.e., less like a phobia).

    We could go round and round all day if you want, but what's the point? I'm merely expressing my opposing view because some of the things I see written here by you, believer, JC, wbmoore and others come across as extremist and homophobic, masquerading as righteous religious fervor, but begging to be stood up against by folks less extreme and homophobic.

    Why do you get in such a snit about the term homophobic anyway? You really have zeroed in on that. Is it because admitting it would make you less comfortable with your irrational aversion to gay people? That's what I think it is, but if you disagree I'd love to hear your thoughts.

    My feathers are hardly ruffled; I'm actually quite amused by this! It especially tickles me how you brand a heathen anyone who doesn't fit into your narrow little view of what it is to be Christian...and can't even begin to see anything wrong with that. How could I do anything but chuckle and roll my eyes at that?

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Call me dear one again and you'll be standing in a hospital (joking, but seriously, it makes you sound foolish.)

    As I have said many times, I do not base my life on the scripture alone. I stand in love for myself, for my partner, and for those around me, which Jesus certainly advocated. I am very aware of where I am standing, thank you.

    I stand with God, but also with science, and the two can be coupled together. I stand with studies which are valid, not studies put out with extreme Christian bias which actually spread lies. If you are believing those studies, studies which say that there are very high success rates, then you are standing on a lie, which I do believe is a sin.

  • JC »
    Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To Mike2685

    Dear one, when are you going to offer anything Biblical to justify your position. We've offered you much, but you only attack what you do not understand or cannot comprehend. All I've seen is squirming and ignoring, followed by a badly measured attack plan.

    With no solid foundation to stand on, you may want to take a look at exactly what you are standing on. For if you call yourself a Christian, and do not stand on what is written, then what exactly are you standing on?

    What are you standing on Mike2685? Is it solid? Is it based on a Biblical foundation? Is it grounded in truth? Is it based upon love? Will it be acceptable in God's eyes, judged by His word?

    Where do you stand? Is it a house built upon the sand, or built upon The Rock? Where do you stand beloved?

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    JC, could you stop with all the degrading talk before you start a sentence? "Little one"? Seriously?

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    doreen,
    You lost all credibility with me. You tout how christians are homophobic because of the way we talk about homosexuals (as in with disgust and contempt). But yet you talk the same way about christians (and admit to it) and when I call you phobic you get your feathers in a ruffle. Please stop being hypocritical. By your own definition, you are just as "phobic" as I am.
    As far as your relationship with Jesus goes, I agree. The only information I have is that you call yourself a Christian, and yet joyfully and willfully continue to live in sin, denying His power. He's your big sugah daddy in the sky. But that's only from what you've said. I may be wrong. You may not really be a homosexual for all I know. But you've said you were, so I can only go by what you've said

  • JC »
    Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To Doreenied:

    You said: "I'll tell you what, if I believed Christ was truly the same as you and some others here, and assessed gay people as you and some here do, then I would walk away from Christ and say he's is a jerk. But I don't believe that."

    That's the problem dear one, you don't believe Christ. We've presented you Christ's words here, not ours, to show you the way, but you reject even this. You reject His teaching, His advice, and His love. You don't have to believe in Him the same way I do, but you at the very least owe Him the courtesy of honoring what He says and commands, if you want to call yourself a Christian, or "Christ-like".

    You said: "I believe you have a distorted view, and for the life of you can't figure out why I don't share it."

    Again, beloved, we've presented you with His words, not ours. If you view our position as distorted, then you are saying that Jesus is distorted. We're only relaying what is written. Is He not the author?

    And, finally, little one. You said that my love for you is phoney. Beloved, I cannot love you on my own accord. I don't even know you. This is impossible. I love you based upon the love that God has put into my heart.

    You attack what you don't understand or comprehend.

    "You will know them by their love for one another". Did you think that this was not based upon the presence of the Holy Spirit in ones life? Flesh cannot do this. Without the presence of His Spirit, this love would be impossible. But sadly, you are rejecting even this, calling it a vitriolic attitude.

    I pray that God opens your heart to what love really is someday.

  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, while I have my share of phobias, none of them involves Christ or theology.

    I think you might be confusing my disdain for "Christians" of your variety, to which I freely admit, with an actual phobia.

    You have no idea about my relationship to Jesus Christ so no need to pretend that you do. I see that for what it is.

  • Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Again, you ignored my question and attempted to make me into a heathen. You truly have no idea what you are talking about. I love theology, it puts the Bible in context. You love scripture blindly, you care not for studying it, history, or science. They all fit together like a puzzle which you cannot solve, and for that, you claim the scripture is the only piece. How wrong you are, and how much you fail to love your fellow man. I pity you, and I know God is in my heart.

  • Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I don't care why you asked the question. I'm just pointing out how theophobic you are.
    I am very honest with myself. This is how honest I am. I am a sinner. I was born a sinner. God wants me to change. I cannot do it on my own. I need His Spirit to help me. I know that the way I was born, and the way God wants me to be are two different things. I am far from perfect, but I work daily to change the things about me that are sinful.
    Can you be that honest?
    Doubt it. You spend your life saying "I was born this way, so I'm staying this way." People are born blind every day. Why are scientists trying to cure them? Don't they know that if that is the way they were born, that must be the way they are supposed to be?
    And I try not to take too much judgement from non-christians. They don't know the Bible, except what little they twist and stretch.

  • Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, clearly, you did not read my post, because I made it clear why I was asking the question. How painfully typical of a "Christian" to try and put it back on me, yet not answer any of my questions! Prophet, I pity you, because you are not being honest with yourself. You cling to the scripture without thinking critically about anything, something which Jesus encouraged us to do! Please, read what I write, then respond honestly instead of trying to make me look like a fool, because in doing so, it falls back on you.

  • Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Oh. So then you're theophobic. Or is that christophobic? christianphobic? Well, you get the idea. I think you more than qualify, based on the words and tenor of your posts, but considering you are neither a Christian yourselves, nor being forced to be a Christian, nor participate in Christian activities.

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