SAN FRANCISCO — The ballot summary to California's amendment to protect marriage has been rewritten.
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(Photo: AP Images / Rich Pedroncelli)In this file photo, demonstrators carrying signs against same-sex 'marriage' are seen across from the Sacramento County Clerk/Recorders office where dozens of gay and lesbian couples were waiting to obtain marriage licenses in Sacramento, Calif. on Tuesday, June 17, 2008.
The description to Proposition 8, known as the "California Marriage Protection Act," originally stated that the measure would amend the California Constitution "to provide that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."
But the modified version, which will be published in the voter information guides this fall, describes the marriage initiative as amending the state Constitution to "eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry."
The original ballot summary appears in the second sentence of the revised description.
The new language also suggested a negative fiscal impact in the short term.
"Over the next few years, potential revenue loss, mainly sales taxes, totaling in the several tens of millions of dollars, to state and local governments. In the long run, likely little fiscal impact to state and local governments," reads the revised summary.
The old summary read: "The measure would have no fiscal effect on state or local governments. This is because there would be no change to the manner in which marriages are currently recognized by the state."
The secretary of state's office says that description was changed to reflect a May 15 California Supreme Court ruling legalizing same-sex "marriage," according to The Associated Press.
Meanwhile, a battle is brewing over the supporting and opposing arguments for the measure that will be published in the voter information pamphlets.
Supporters of Prop. 8 argue that if the ruling allowing gay "marriage" is not overturned, public schools would be required to teach that same-sex "marriage" is the same as traditional marriage in health education programs that would target pupils as early as kindergarten.
Critics of the measure contend that such arguments are a "smokescreen" and that California law prohibits schools from teaching family and health issues to children without parental consent.
But Jennifer Kerns, spokesperson for the Yes on 8 campaign, disagrees.
Citing the California Education Code, she said that state law requires teachers to instruct children about marriage in health education classes and that such programs are required under law to include instruction on "the legal and financial aspects and responsibilities of marriage," the San Francisco Chronicle reported.
That means students at every grade level must now be taught that same-sex "marriage" is the same as opposite-sex marriage, Kerns told the newspaper.
"We should not accept a court decision that results in public schools teaching our kids that gay marriage is okay," Prop. 8 supporters say in ballot arguments, according to the local Chronicle. "That is an issue for parents to discuss with their children according to their own values and beliefs. It shouldn't be forced on us against our will."
If Californians pass Prop. 8 in November, it wouldn't be the first time voters affirmed marriage as only between a man and a woman. In 2000, over 61 percent approved a law that protected the traditional definition of marriage.
But don't you see mike this is the same ole stuff right out of the Bible, Gods word it is what you need to make it mike to His heaven. He is the same today as yesterday as tomorrow. roll your eyes mike, dont you think your same ole same ole arguements bore us to tears. half the time they are not even read anymore. But the words that are being spoken to you are the words of eternal life mike, not death. i believe God is calling you, drawing you near to Him. He wants to show you His love, a perfect Love, a healing Love, one that can change you and your perspective. roll your eyes mike but seak His Kingdom not your. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
Tom, for once could you post something other than typical Christian rhetoric? I do nothing but glance over it and roll my eyes.
Don't you see mike we all are praying for you. To see the light that God sent into the world Jesus Christ. It is this same Jesus who died for you and when you surrender your will to His. He can change you into what He wants you to be and that is Holy and righteous. but you must first accept jesus as Lord and turn from your sins, all of them. Walk the narrow road that leads to life, eternal life with God Himself. As you walk this walk protected by the righteousness of Jesus Christ, by His blood. You will be transformed by the renewing of your mind. As you do this He will pour out His, (God) love into you by His Spirit. A love you have never known one that can and will cleanse you of all unrighteousness. Do you hear Him mike He is calling, trying to draw you near. Listen to Him. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
Im not a toddler. Please, if you pray for me, pray that God's will be done, not "Jesus, cleanse this sinner of his sin!" As you don't really know that's God's will, I think it would be quite the arrogant prayer, agreed?
I'm not making assumptions. I'm just saying that I do love you as much as I love myself. But you can spout off how I don't, but I'm used to it. When my kids were toddlers and I told them that I didn't want them doing something they thought was okay, they used the same argument "You don't love me! Or else you'd let me do what feels good!"
And as much as you try and deny it, I do love you as much as I love myself. That's why I pray for you.
Prophet, you're making a lot of assumptions about my love with my partner which you most certainly know nothing about. Of course I want this love: It keeps me in check, it challenges me to be a better person, it raises my spirits so that I can then go out and show more love to my students and those around me. My love for my partner and his for me does exactly the same as your love for your wife.
mike,
But it is you who doesn't understand. I do love you like I love myself. I wouldn't allow myself to be caught up in the sin of homosexuality, and so I love you enough to not want you to either. The point is, that you don't want that kind of love. You think that love says "do whatever you want. it's okay. there is no consequences for your action."
But love actually says "Please stop. Don't you see what you're doing? Don't you realize what's going to happen if you keep sinning? I don't want you to get hurt."
So you can preach at me all day long about loving you (and other homosexuals) as I love myself. Becuase I do.
Mike2685,
"Historically, he was writing against the Pagans. "
I agree. But my point is that Paul said these things happened to them because they put created things in the place of God. This is what we are to NOT do. Some people would do the things spoken of as bad in context of a religious ritual, but others did the same things in other contexts.
My point is that the things mentioned in Romans 1 as bad were spoken of as bad, regardless of context.
in romans 1, I don't see him talking about who "they" really were either. Historically, he was writing against the Pagans.
Mike2685,
Look at Romans 1 again, because I do not see any mention of a pagan ritual orgy. I simply see people who replaced God with something created, and they were given over to the desires of their hearts for it. They were given over to sin (which was shameful, unnatural, indecent, perversion) because they put their ideas above God Himself.
You clearly disagree prophet, stop acting as if you don't understand, that tactic is getting old with "Christians." Doreen, I do agree. I know the message of Jesus, and the greatest rule was to love others as we love ourselves, to love God with all our heart, and to do unto others as we'd have done to them. I guess many of these "Christians" want people to condemn them for each little step out of bounds they take.
I agree. We need to concentrate on the Spirit of the Word, which says sin is sin and it will separate us from God. So I choose to refrain from sin.
Personally, I think I can do more of God's work if I trust myself, in my God-given abilities, to make good judgments in His name. Without worrying too much about the exact words...and concentrating more on the Spirit within those words. Carrying on what He is REALLY about.
Personally, I'd rather not find out AFTER it's too late.
Right, such as attending orgies all the time, which is something I don't do. Rather, i will adopt children in need of a loving, stable environment which my partner and I create with love. If you believe God will condemn me for that, nothing I can really say except I disagree and we'll all find out one day.
Homosexuality is a sin.
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And for those who would say that the Scripture uses the word "lust" and homosexuals don't lust after each other, they love each other.
The word "lust" in this verse is the only time this particular word is used. "orexis", which simply means "longing for".
So we see that even longing for another person of the same sex is wrong.
Mike,
You said " I don't think God would condemn someone who has led an extraordinary life of service because they didn't root every task into a quote from scripture."
True. But there are some things that the Scriptures say that if you practice, you will not inherit the Kingdom of God...no matter how "extraordinary" of a life you've led.
God's truth, but what God has to say in the Bible reaches everyone differently. Like I'm sure you've picked up, I am very stubborn. I do not learn well through reading, I learn through doing something myself. Jesus is the great teacher, and so just like I do with my students, Jesus teaches us through more ways than just the Bible. He certainly is alive and moving within me, as I believe he is within everyone, whether they acknowledge his presence as God, as Cosmos, whatever. I think almost everyone has language that in some way points to a higher, shared power that flows through the universe and keeps us on the straight and narrow as far as morals go. Ultimately, I think we all believe in the same truths (there is no greater love than to lay your life down for a friend, what goes around comes around. that everyday we have the power to make someone's life better, or to make it miserable.) Regardless of if you've never picked up a BIble, you have morals instilled in you. While you learn through studying the Bible, many learn through doing, and through their conscience. I don't think God would condemn someone who has led an extraordinary life of service because they didn't root every task into a quote from scripture.
doreen doesn't pay much attention to what I post. Let me repost what I had written.
Sorry, they're not my beliefs. They're God's truths. If you don't want to admit they exist...well, you'll still be judged by them.
Ah, Prophet, now I see. Your individual beliefs are the one and only truth and everybody else is wrong, and they just don't know it. That is some ego you have.
"Prophet, don't lecture me on what Christianity is. I know well your brand of it, and I reject it."
We already know you reject the truth. You've shown it over and over.
"In the end, the simple fact is you want to limit the secular freedoms of OTHERS based on YOUR beliefs. Not gonna happen."
Sorry, they're not my beliefs. They're God's truths. If you don't want to admit they exist...well, you'll still be judged by them.
"So....as in democracy, Christian "truths" hinge on what the majority say?"
That is not what I said. At all.
"If Jesus were alive today, doreen would be lambasting him too."
False.
"He doesn't realize that Jesus was a minority."
False.
Prophet, don't lecture me on what Christianity is. I know well your brand of it, and I reject it.
In the end, the simple fact is you want to limit the secular freedoms of OTHERS based on YOUR beliefs. Not gonna happen.
Jester, you were flagged for spamming and for creating a false name. If you continue, you will be reported to Christianpost for attempting to incite arguments rather than contributing to the conversation.
Let me see if I can post it again. I was congratulating mike2685 and doreenied for their ability to stand up against you religious extremists. I know how they feel. I get the same opposition when I talk to people about our cause. But it's nice to know that you have others that do support you. That you're not out there on your own. So I just wanted to tell them to hang in there.
mike please expand how exodus lies. I know very little about them. Also is it they are lying or you disagree with them, for may say they worked for them. I know scripture is suffecient for al problems though. Have you heard of NANC counselors. NANC stands for national assocoiation of neuthetic(sp ?) counseling. They counsel on a variety of subjects. It is strictly biblical without any seculiar opinion added in.
mike
God is infallible to say Christ's opinions or commands would be different today is to say God got it wrong in the first place. If yoou feel that someone is making you out to be foolish or a heathen maybe it is the spirit trying to convict you.
Doreenied
you do not know me and you spout off at the mouth for not knowing anyone. You are judging people rather than their sin. If you knew me, you would know that waht you said is far from the truth. I posted before one of our best lady friends considers her to be lesbian, she knows our position, and we love her dearly. in fact my wife is there now as I post to console her in a death in the family. If you are a believer you should apologize for your actions and judgements. I do not attack people here but I will disagree on your positions.
What happened to my message?
Actually JC, I know for a fact Exodus doesn't work and that its founders lie through their teeth, so I most certainly am not standing on hope there. That is called fact, sorry. As far as God goes, everyone stands on hope. We can try all we want, but no one knows if they're going to heaven or not, so yes, I am hoping God will see that I have loved, I hve hurt, and that I have followed him according to how the holy spirit moved me.
I guess I shouldn't laugh. Willfull ignorance of sin isn't funny.
Hahahahaha. He said: "to me a small group of people who hold a view focused substantially narrower than the majority's, and who show complete disregard for anyone's view but their own as acceptable, are "extremists.""
So....as in democracy, Christian "truths" hinge on what the majority say? Hmmm. Interesting.
If Jesus were alive today, doreen would be lambasting him too. He doesn't realize that Jesus was a minority. So, if I'm in the minority then I am in great company.
You see, true Christianity doesn't follow cultural trends. It doesn't submit to majority opinions. There are millions of people who call themselves Christians. They are Christians in the fact that they have accepted Christ into their life. But that's where it ends. There is no change of lifestyle. No acknowledgement of God's power or holiness. It is merely a religion. A way to ease their conscience, and hopefully secure their place in heaven. And they will recieve the reward for their works: nada.
But there is a minority, or remnant, who will sacrifice all their fleshy sins, and acknowledge that God wants us to live holy. They will not bow to lust, anger, bitterness, lies, deceit, drunkeness, homosexuality, adultery, etc, etc. But they will seek to separate themselves from that which separates them from God. They will wage the war on Hell, and will prevail. That is the true Church of God. It's not built on numbers. It's built on Truth and holiness. Love and mercy are it's pillars. Truth is it's weapon.
Only those who overcome will be granted the priviledge of sitting with Christ on His throne, and ruling with Him. Christianity is not a vacation. It's a spiritual war. And those who view it as a vacation call those who know it's a war "extremists". I wonder what they're gonna think of those "extremists" when we all get to heaven, and those "extremists" are sitting with Christ on His throne?
JC, I apologize. That probably came across more harshly than I want to be, and that's unnecessary. I'm sorry.
I think I'm frustrated because while I do enjoy lively debate and intellectual stimulation, to be honest sometimes arguments like yours come across to me as almost cult-like, and I don't see the benefit of engaging if we are that far from even being able to acknowledge common ground.
But again, I'm sorry for my harshness.
JC, spare me your self-righteous Bible quoting. I know your type. Nothing I could possibly say will make the slightest difference to you. You will dig up another quote that supports what you already think, without using even the tiniest bit of your God-given individual brain, like a robot.
Believe me, I understand your way of viewing things, and I reject it. Isn't that enough for you?
You don't really want to know what I think, as in engaging conversation or intelligent debate. So why bother asking? I suspect your holier-than-thou comebacks make you feel more secure in your own beliefs. You don't need me for that.
To Doreenied:
You said: "JC, to me a small group of people who hold a view focused substantially narrower than the majority's, and who show complete disregard for anyone's view but their own as acceptable, are "extremists.""
Jesus said: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
It doesn't matter what the majority thinks, it only matters what God thinks.
Again, I ask, what are you standing upon?
JC, to me a small group of people who hold a view focused substantially narrower than the majority's, and who show complete disregard for anyone's view but their own as acceptable, are "extremists."
It's like the line between Muslims and radical extremist Muslims. Most of the people I've ever known or associated with have been Christians, but only a handful speak the way you and several others here on this site do. It's harsh and unyielding, and in my opinion differs significantly from most Christians.
I'm sure you disagree, and I don't know why you ask in the first place. I'm not about to convince you of anything.
doreen,
"It especially tickles me how you brand a heathen anyone who doesn't fit into your narrow little view of what it is to be Christian..." My narrow little view is only dictated by the Bible's narrow view. So if you have a problem with my view, take it up witht the One who wrote the Book.
And to think that I hate homosexuals shows you how little you know of me, and God. But I guess whenever you tell someone that what they love doing is wrong, you're gonna be branded as "intolerant". But yet, these same "tolerant" homosexuals (and their proponents) will treat their children the same way. Hypocritical at best.
Mike2685:
So, from what I can read from your post, you admit you are standing on the following:
Hope that Exodus' studies are in error.
Hope that the Exodus co-founder is lying through his teeth.
Hope that God will include the word "may" into His word later concerning the union between two indivduals becoming one flesh.
Hope that the culture that Jesus was in at the time dictated His words, His thoughts, His infinite wisdom.
Hope that since gays are no longer stoned to death, that it must now be acceptable by God's standards.
Hope that Jesus had a total foreign concept of two men marrying that He didn't bother to think of it or address it.
Hope that what is in your heart outweighs what is written.
You who are so loved by God, you are standing upon hope, and hope alone. You are leaning upon your own understanding, which is finite, not God's which is infinite.
It would appear you are a little torn between two existences, one you know to be truthful, the other you are not sure anymore. The tug of the Holy Spirit is calling you and confusing you at the same time. If this were not true, you wouldn't be here attempting to justify that which you stand upon. You're looking for truth and justification, but you are looking to other's understanding. Not God's. Read His word beloved, read it. For that's where you will find the wisdom and knowledge you seek.
Which has more weight. God's wisdom or man's wisdom. Which will last forever? Which will stand as a rock?
To doreenied:
You said: "We could go round and round all day if you want, but what's the point? I'm merely expressing my opposing view because some of the things I see written here by you, believer, JC, wbmoore and others come across as extremist and homophobic, masquerading as righteous religious fervor, but begging to be stood up against by folks less extreme and homophobic."
In the above sentence, you called us extremists. I'm curious, when did it become an extremist position for a Christian to be obedient to God's word? Are we not told to speak truth, speak life, speak love? Are we not told to share His Gospel? Is it not written that His all Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness?
What exactly is your definition of an extremist?
The lies come in when Christians believe that groups like Exodus are truthful in their studies. Reparative therapy DOES NOT work, and the cofounder of NARTH himself found that it doesn't (although he won't admit it, but his study has been published and is entirely lacking in credibility or scientific method.) God never contradicted himself. He never said "marriage may only be between a man and a woman.' When Jesus spoke, he was speaking to the groups of people in a way they would understand him. I think if he were to come back today, he would have female apostles, but at the time he was alive, people wouldn't have listened to him if he was talking and had female apostles. Similarly, "gays" were stoned to death back then, so the idea that 2 gay men would ever ask to be married was so foreign to them that there was no point in Jesus speaking to it. I truly wonder what Jesus would say about it today, because I know what is in my heart, and I can tell you, it most certainly is not lust for my partner.
To Mike2685
No offense intended by calling you "dear one". Most non-Christians do not understand and are apprehensive and it does have a tendency to irritate some. But, let's be clear, works without love is worthless. What profit do I have to only love those who love me? His love for us has no limits. His love for us is the very fabric of the covenant.
So, for now, let's leave love out of it, for just a second. Let's look at this logically instead, for science seems to be of interest to us both.
We know that we both believe in God. This is fact. We both know that Jesus is the Messiah, the Lamb of God. And we both know that the Holy Spirit was sent to bring remembrance to us what Jesus said. Are these not also fact? If not, then we are not standing on equal footing already.
Okay, God is just and undeniably incapable of making a mistake or contradicting Himself. If He were, logically, He would not be God. If God's definition of marriage in antiquity was for one man and one woman to become one flesh, then even in present times, this would still be the case. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to negate or replace it. He made this claim itself. Jesus said that He and the Father are one. If God's position was one of unacceptance, then, logically, Jesus' position would be identical.
Therefore, brother, why do you say I am guilty of "Christian bias" and "spreading lies", if logically, I am standing on what is logical? How is it Christian bias and spreading lies by repeating what is written by the very Christ we claim as Messiah? Logically, this is an impossibility.
So, I ask you once again, what are you standing on?
Oh please, Prophet, be serious. Like I ever had any credibility with someone like you.
Let me reiterate since you're not listening: I do not call all Christians homophobic. Far from it! I am calling fringe Christian extremists homophobic. Essentially I'm drawing a line between your ilk and the vast majority of Christians that I've ever known.
Why are you being so argumentative about this? If you really must know where I draw the differentiating line between my feelings and yours I'll spell it out for you.
Your attitude toward gay people--all of them no matter what, merely by virtue of them being gay in the first place--is an aversion. Because it's a blanket feeling toward an entire group of people, regardless of what kind of people they are in their hearts, minds, capabilities, whatever, I have a strong case to make in calling that aversion of yours "irrational." You have an irrational aversion.
My attitude, that I've described as disdain, is toward a very narrow group of people (within the overarching group of all Christians), and on very specific grounds (predicated specifically on your irrational aversion), which I think makes my case that mine is a far more rational feeling (i.e., less like a phobia).
We could go round and round all day if you want, but what's the point? I'm merely expressing my opposing view because some of the things I see written here by you, believer, JC, wbmoore and others come across as extremist and homophobic, masquerading as righteous religious fervor, but begging to be stood up against by folks less extreme and homophobic.
Why do you get in such a snit about the term homophobic anyway? You really have zeroed in on that. Is it because admitting it would make you less comfortable with your irrational aversion to gay people? That's what I think it is, but if you disagree I'd love to hear your thoughts.
My feathers are hardly ruffled; I'm actually quite amused by this! It especially tickles me how you brand a heathen anyone who doesn't fit into your narrow little view of what it is to be Christian...and can't even begin to see anything wrong with that. How could I do anything but chuckle and roll my eyes at that?
Call me dear one again and you'll be standing in a hospital (joking, but seriously, it makes you sound foolish.)
As I have said many times, I do not base my life on the scripture alone. I stand in love for myself, for my partner, and for those around me, which Jesus certainly advocated. I am very aware of where I am standing, thank you.
I stand with God, but also with science, and the two can be coupled together. I stand with studies which are valid, not studies put out with extreme Christian bias which actually spread lies. If you are believing those studies, studies which say that there are very high success rates, then you are standing on a lie, which I do believe is a sin.
To Mike2685
Dear one, when are you going to offer anything Biblical to justify your position. We've offered you much, but you only attack what you do not understand or cannot comprehend. All I've seen is squirming and ignoring, followed by a badly measured attack plan.
With no solid foundation to stand on, you may want to take a look at exactly what you are standing on. For if you call yourself a Christian, and do not stand on what is written, then what exactly are you standing on?
What are you standing on Mike2685? Is it solid? Is it based on a Biblical foundation? Is it grounded in truth? Is it based upon love? Will it be acceptable in God's eyes, judged by His word?
Where do you stand? Is it a house built upon the sand, or built upon The Rock? Where do you stand beloved?
JC, could you stop with all the degrading talk before you start a sentence? "Little one"? Seriously?
doreen,
You lost all credibility with me. You tout how christians are homophobic because of the way we talk about homosexuals (as in with disgust and contempt). But yet you talk the same way about christians (and admit to it) and when I call you phobic you get your feathers in a ruffle. Please stop being hypocritical. By your own definition, you are just as "phobic" as I am.
As far as your relationship with Jesus goes, I agree. The only information I have is that you call yourself a Christian, and yet joyfully and willfully continue to live in sin, denying His power. He's your big sugah daddy in the sky. But that's only from what you've said. I may be wrong. You may not really be a homosexual for all I know. But you've said you were, so I can only go by what you've said
To Doreenied:
You said: "I'll tell you what, if I believed Christ was truly the same as you and some others here, and assessed gay people as you and some here do, then I would walk away from Christ and say he's is a jerk. But I don't believe that."
That's the problem dear one, you don't believe Christ. We've presented you Christ's words here, not ours, to show you the way, but you reject even this. You reject His teaching, His advice, and His love. You don't have to believe in Him the same way I do, but you at the very least owe Him the courtesy of honoring what He says and commands, if you want to call yourself a Christian, or "Christ-like".
You said: "I believe you have a distorted view, and for the life of you can't figure out why I don't share it."
Again, beloved, we've presented you with His words, not ours. If you view our position as distorted, then you are saying that Jesus is distorted. We're only relaying what is written. Is He not the author?
And, finally, little one. You said that my love for you is phoney. Beloved, I cannot love you on my own accord. I don't even know you. This is impossible. I love you based upon the love that God has put into my heart.
You attack what you don't understand or comprehend.
"You will know them by their love for one another". Did you think that this was not based upon the presence of the Holy Spirit in ones life? Flesh cannot do this. Without the presence of His Spirit, this love would be impossible. But sadly, you are rejecting even this, calling it a vitriolic attitude.
I pray that God opens your heart to what love really is someday.
Prophet, while I have my share of phobias, none of them involves Christ or theology.
I think you might be confusing my disdain for "Christians" of your variety, to which I freely admit, with an actual phobia.
You have no idea about my relationship to Jesus Christ so no need to pretend that you do. I see that for what it is.
Again, you ignored my question and attempted to make me into a heathen. You truly have no idea what you are talking about. I love theology, it puts the Bible in context. You love scripture blindly, you care not for studying it, history, or science. They all fit together like a puzzle which you cannot solve, and for that, you claim the scripture is the only piece. How wrong you are, and how much you fail to love your fellow man. I pity you, and I know God is in my heart.
I don't care why you asked the question. I'm just pointing out how theophobic you are.
I am very honest with myself. This is how honest I am. I am a sinner. I was born a sinner. God wants me to change. I cannot do it on my own. I need His Spirit to help me. I know that the way I was born, and the way God wants me to be are two different things. I am far from perfect, but I work daily to change the things about me that are sinful.
Can you be that honest?
Doubt it. You spend your life saying "I was born this way, so I'm staying this way." People are born blind every day. Why are scientists trying to cure them? Don't they know that if that is the way they were born, that must be the way they are supposed to be?
And I try not to take too much judgement from non-christians. They don't know the Bible, except what little they twist and stretch.
Prophet, clearly, you did not read my post, because I made it clear why I was asking the question. How painfully typical of a "Christian" to try and put it back on me, yet not answer any of my questions! Prophet, I pity you, because you are not being honest with yourself. You cling to the scripture without thinking critically about anything, something which Jesus encouraged us to do! Please, read what I write, then respond honestly instead of trying to make me look like a fool, because in doing so, it falls back on you.
Oh. So then you're theophobic. Or is that christophobic? christianphobic? Well, you get the idea. I think you more than qualify, based on the words and tenor of your posts, but considering you are neither a Christian yourselves, nor being forced to be a Christian, nor participate in Christian activities.
Prophet, I explained that in a post yesterday but it bears repeating so here:
When I use the word homophobia in this context I don't mean fear as in "Eeek! A big spider!" I mean fear as in excessive contempt based on the unknown or unfamiliar. (In addition to fear as in scary, phobias can also be persistent, abnormal, or irrational feelings of contempt, dislike, or aversion.) I think several of you more than qualify, based on the words and tenor of your posts, considering you are neither homosexual yourselves, nor being forced to lead a homosexual life, nor participate in homosexual sex.
By your reaction, I get the feeling it is you who does not fully understand the definition of that word. But if the shoe fits...
mike,
" If you're so for morality, why isn't there a single posting on here about straight couples living together out of marriage?"
Probably because this article is about homosexuality, and that's what we're discussing. If it bothers you so much that you want to change the subject, there are other posts you can visit.
doreenied,
How are we "homophobic"? I get the feeling that you really don't understand the true definition of that word.
JC, that is such a crock. The whole 'love the sinner hate the sin' routine is a what homophobic people use to avoid taking responsibility for their vitriolic attitudes.
Your words sound all drippy with love but deep down you don't mean them, you've just convinced yourself you mean them because that's what you think you have to do to be a good Christian. It's phoney.
I'll tell you what, if I believed Christ was truly the same as you and some others here, and assessed gay people as you and some here do, then I would walk away from Christ and say he's is a jerk. But I don't believe that.
I believe you have a distorted view, and for the life of you can't figure out why I don't share it. Walk a day in my shoes, Sweetie.
JC, cut the nonsense, please. You claim to love gays as everyone else, but that could not be farther from the truth. If you're so for morality, why isn't there a single posting on here about straight couples living together out of marriage? Why aren't you petitioning for that to become illegal? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T BOTHER YOU. If you're so for morality, why are Christians worried about boycotting McDonalds because they support a gay rights group, but I have yet to hear of a Christian led protest against Coca-Cola for using clean water from 3rd world countries. Why? BECAUSE GAYS BOTHER YOU MORE. There are numerous tabs on this website dedicated to articles about gays. We are not seeking out Christians and getting in your face about issues, however, you are seeking us out, actively, and then saying "oh look how they're flaunting their lifestyle" when we retaliate. If you want to share your love with someone, get your priorities straight, because you singling out gay couples and acting as if we'll be the downfall of society could not be farther from love!
To Doreenied:
You said: "All this simply because gay people make you uncomfortable. Well too bad, Sir, you'll just have to get used to it and tolerate it just as we tolerate you."
This is where you are in error beloved. We have to love you, we do not have to tolerate your behavior. You see, dear one, we stand with Christ. What He condemns, so we also. What He justifies, so we also. If we do not, we are not followers of Christ. His Word reigns supreme in our lives, as we know it to be His Word, the Word of The Everlasting, The Alpha and Omega. His Word will stand forever.
So, where would this leave you?
Steveincal, great posting! Its always good to know we have support from straight folks as well. We need objective thinking like yours :)
wbmoore -
You also wrote, "But the equality currently exists - every man is entitled to marry a woman who will agree to it, and every woman is entitled to marry a man who will agree to it."
That is not equality. That is nonsense. I wonder how many heterosexual men would be happy to marry me, or how many fathers or mothers of boys would want them to grow up and marry a gay person, a person who was never truly in love with them because their gender didn't attract them. It's the exact same thing as asking a heterosexual person to marry someone of the same sex; it's nonsense. Think of it this way, if it were only possible for you to marry someone of the same sex, then as a heterosexual person wouldn't you feel dissatisfied since that doesn't apply to you?
The only difference I see in your two definitions of tolerance is the first limits tolerating to merely enduring while the second adds respect and appreciation. The first is outdated. The second is much better, as long as we all practice it. It is an evolved definition more likely to foster peace and cooperation. You go on to state the gay people want to be "embraced, and held up as good." That is simply not true. You overestimate yourself; I don't think gay people care whether you embrace them or think they are good. Why should they?
Your last sentence about what God says and wants is nothing more than your opinion. Like I said, I fundamentally disagree. Who are you to say? It sure is easy for non-gay people to label gays as bad isn't it?
wbmoore -
Upon my disagreeing with your opinion of the basis of morality, you wrote, "Then you are ignorant of the history of our country." I'd say it is you who are ignorant, my friend, of recognizing a simple common aspect of humankind. I think I'm seeing a much bigger picture than you seem capable of seeing.
"Technology has advanced, people have not changed. As we embrace more and more immorality, society suffers."
Again, your quaint opinion. I do not accept this notion that in the past things were rosey and everyone was on a wonderful path clutching their bibles and always doing the right thing, and now we are losing our religion and headed for disaster and gloom. Baloney. I find that a deluded, distorted, and unnecessarily pessimistic point of view. Things were no better in the past. They were different. This gleeful vision of a perfect past only exists in the minds of people like you. Those who do not adapt, and change with the times, will perish. But at least they'll do it happily, clutching those bibles.
Good point about the definition of morality. Let me restate my thought: you're right, our law is not the same thing as our morality; but our law is a reflection of our morality. And it is fluid, and that's a good thing. Our morality (and therefore our laws) evolve over time. We refine them to be more precise, more productive, less vague, less misguided. The changes are a product of ongoing human enlightenment. People such as yourself who do not like the changes will forever decry them as society going to hell in a handbasket. You're entitled to feel that way but the rest of us are moving on and do not share that view.
James Reynold - you just don't get it. As soon as gay people actually have equal rights and protections, something we've never had, but deserve as legal, tax-paying citizens of this great country, we'll stop asking for things we don't have. It's not that hard of a concept.
And why is it that by merely being who we are we are "flaunting" somthing (that we apparently have no business "flaunting") but when you do exactly the same, merely live as you are, you are not flaunting anything?
It's almost unconceivable that you could be that openly discriminatory and not even see it! Open your eyes.
All this simply because gay people make you uncomfortable. Well too bad, Sir, you'll just have to get used to it and tolerate it just as we tolerate you.
I consider myself a normal guy - married, father of 2. Raised Catholic. Take the family to church, not every Sunday but most. Dad's in the local K of C. The more I read about Prop 8 and the more I think about it the more I question it. We live in a great country where every person is entitled to the same constitutional protections. If two people want to commit their lives together, raise kids, share property, then they need to have the same contractual protections you and I are entitled to. Prop 8 proponents say "Gay people do now, in civil unions". I'm no constitutional lawyer, but I remember being taught "Separate but equal is unequal". This was why we desegregated our schools. In our country if Person A can do something legally then Person B can to. That's called "equal protection" and it's why we discarded the laws against interracial marriage. I've heard "Marriage has always been one man and one woman". Well, in the 50s people said "Marriage has always been between people of the same race." Our parent's generation wisely discarded that thinking. Turns out the one-man-one-woman thing isn't even true. The Bible itself describes Solomon's 700 wives (1 Kings 11). He's put up as a bad example but the fact is, it was legal. Millions of people around the world now live in jurisdictions allowing gay marriage. "Marriage has always been about raising children". Also not true. Through most of history it was about managing the transfer of property. And if we apply a "procreation" rule, then the infertile or elderly shouldn't be allowed to marry. "The Bible says it's a sin". Even if you believe this, think of all the sinners we allow to marry today - murderers, thieves, adulterers, rapists, even child molesters. I'm not equating gays to criminals, just observing that (perhaps unfortunately) you can have a rapsheet of sins a mile long and still get a marriage license. "Polygamy will be next". I just don't buy that. If that were true, polygamists would be suing for recognition and not hiding in rural fortresses. "Moral decay"? What's immoral about lifelong commitment, adopting kids who need homes, and caring for a sick soulmate? "Gay sex is gross" Maybe so, but the thought of my parents having sex is gross too. "Activist judges"? The CA Supreme Court justices were Republican-appointed. People probably called them "activist judges" when their predecessors ruled in favor of interracial marriage. "Teaching gay marriage in kindergarten?" That's just silly. Our local school board decides the curriculum. .. If Annie and Eve love each other and want to get married, I just can't see how that hurts me, or them, or their kids, or my kids, or my church, or the country or our collective morality.
Jennifer Kerns is quoted in the article as a spokeswoman for 'ProtectMarriage.com - Yes on 8', but the question I'd like to ask is:
Is Jennifer even married?
Does she have children?
She's being quoted here as the lead spokeswoman of a campaign to deny the benefits of marriage to real parents raising real kids.
I'm straight, married, and like to think my wife and I are raising a couple of great kids. If you're going to convince me to deny the benefits of marriage to gay parents, I need to hear from someone who brings some actual personal experience with caring for a family of their own.
I suspect that Jennifer Kerns is, in fact, single.
If so, how about Jennifer leaving the business of "protecting marriage" to those of us who've actually chosen marriage?
doreenied, (2)
"Homosexuality is not against the law."
Homosexual behavior used to be against the law. However, certain segments of society have been trying to remove God from all aspects of life, and this is one of the victims of this movement.
" If it were, I grant you there would be no basis on which to expect civil equality (e.g., marriage, protection from discrimination, etc.). But homosexuality is not against the law, so there is a basis on which to expect full equality."
But the equality currently exists - every man is entitled to marry a woman who will agree to it, and every woman is entitled to marry a man who will agree to it.
Gays are attempting to redefine equality to be "I can marry anyone".
This is the same sort of redefinition that the gay movement has been engaging in for a long time. Tolerance no longer means "endurance of the presence or actions of objectionable persons, or of the expression of offensive opinions", but has been changed to mean "respect, acceptance and appreciation of the rich diversity of our world's cultures, our forms of expression and ways of being human. Tolerance is harmony in difference."
Instead of tolerance, the homosexual movement want to be accepted, embraced, and held up as good.
God said it is not good for a man to have sex with a man or a woman to have sex with a woman. While it might be legal, it is still wrong, so ti is not good.
doreenied,
I wrote, "Most of the morals that have been in place in this society have been fundamentally based on the Bible. Now that we are removing the Bible from our lives, the morals of this country are degrading. This is why we have divorce, abortion, sex out of marriage is common and expected, etc."
"I fundamentally disagree with that opinion."
Then you are ignorant of the history of our country.
"I would say society's morals are based on knowing right from wrong, an innate human sense of how our species must behave in order to survive and evolve. Some people need the Bible or religion to stay focused. Some don't. Neither is better than the other."
I would agree with you to a point, I believe God created moral laws, just as He did the laws of physics. People sometimes look for and discover these laws. However, while we might find them, without an absolute standard, we distort them.
For example, we consider murder to be wrong. But society is free to change its definition of murder at will. For instance, there are tribes where murder is considered to be one person killing another person, of the same tribe. But anyone not of the tribe is not a person, and therefore can be killed for any reason.
The same is true for lying. Without an absolute standard, lying becomes permissible, based upon circumstance. There are Muslim terms that say it ok to deceive infidels (non-Muslims), but would not consider it to be lying.
"And I think it's perfectly healthy for our morals to evolve and change over time! What applied 2,000 years ago will not always apply today; it's a vastly different world, humanity has advanced."
Technology has advanced, people have not changed. As we embrace more and more immorality, society suffers.
"And you are right--I'd say our society's objective standard of morality is the law. It is!"
No, it is not. It is a mandated relative manual for accepted behavior at the moment. This is not morality. Morality is a system of beliefs which determine right and wrong, good and bad, good and evil. The law simply regulates behavior of individuals and corporations within society, but does not provide a system of beliefs to ascertain whether something is moral (good or bad), just if something is tolerable - not the same thing at all.
"There will always be individuals with tighter or looser standards than the laws we share, but until your tighter standards become law they are for you only and I can't be forced to live by them."
You can't be forced to live by them even if they are law.
Surely the population of Sodom and Gomorrah would agree with this amendment in defense of their social liberty. Surely they said to the Angels that they should not been forced against their will.
my point being I could if I wanted keep my views to myself, hhowever you would not be able to. If you want people to keep their views to theirselves, you should do the same, and not ask for permission to get married or flaunt it in public. you will not, nor will we
"Prophet, it is my opinion that people such as yourself are the ones more likely to run this country into the ground, not gay people."
Oh, how I long for the earlier times. 1700's, 1800's, when the Bible was taught in school. School was taught in the church house for that fact. The government for the most part was far more Christian than it is today. People prayed more. It was a far more Godly country than today. Far, far from being "run into the ground". But why is it that when the Godless come into power, and start becoming a majority, that things go to hell? First, taking the Bible out of school. Then taking prayer out of school. And as that happen we watched society begin to fall apart. And the atheists call that "progress". If that's progress, I'd rather stay in the 19th century, where people had common sense and a good sense of morality, which too many non-believers seem to lack.
Prophet, it is my opinion that people such as yourself are the ones more likely to run this country into the ground, not gay people. So why is it that your opinion gets to deny gay people a marriage license when my opinion doesn't get to deny you anything? It's not equitable, and the days of that unequitable policy are dwindling fast.
believer, when I use the word homophobia in this context I don't mean fear as in "Eeek! A big spider!" I mean fear as in excessive contempt based on the unknown or unfamiliar. (In addition to fear as in scary, phobias can also be persistent, abnormal, or irrational feelings of contempt, dislike, or aversion.) I think several of you more than qualify, based on the words and tenor of your posts, considering you are neither homosexual yourselves, nor being forced to lead a homosexual life, nor participate in homosexual sex.
wbmoore, you wrote, "Most of the morals that have been in place in this society have been fundamentally based on the Bible. Now that we are removing the Bible from our lives, the morals of this country are degrading. This is why we have divorce, abortion, sex out of marriage is common and expected, etc."
I fundamentally disagree with that opinion. I would say society's morals are based on knowing right from wrong, an innate human sense of how our species must behave in order to survive and evolve. Some people need the Bible or religion to stay focused. Some don't. Neither is better than the other.
And I think it's perfectly healthy for our morals to evolve and change over time! What applied 2,000 years ago will not always apply today; it's a vastly different world, humanity has advanced.
And you are right--I'd say our society's objective standard of morality is the law. It is! There will always be individuals with tighter or looser standards than the laws we share, but until your tighter standards become law they are for you only and I can't be forced to live by them. Homosexuality is not against the law. If it were, I grant you there would be no basis on which to expect civil equality (e.g., marriage, protection from discrimination, etc.). But homosexuality is not against the law, so there is a basis on which to expect full equality.
Mr. Reynolds, gay people living their lives is in no way imposing anything on you. If you can walk down the street holding hands with the opposite sex, that is no more or less of an imposition than if I walk down the street holding hands with someone of the same sex. You are comparing your attempt to deny gay couples access to a civil marriage license with gay people merely walking down the street...all because it makes you uncomfortable. Can't you see the difference? Imagine just for a moment if you will, how you would feel if you were denied the opportunity to marry the person you love, simply because other people were uncomfortable with who you are. Wouldn't that be horrible, even if they believed they were doing it for your own good? You might not want to accept this but no matter how uncomfortable homosexuality makes you, or how wrong you think it is, or what the basis of your feelings is, gay people are no more an imposition on you than you are on them.
I am in no way homophobic. What do I have to fear from them? They're not going to take away my salvation. They're not going to turn me gay. All they'll do is run our country into the ground morally. I like my country. I don't want it to get ruined. But if it does, it still won't affect me, or the way I live.
"I have learned in whatever situation I am in, to be content."
doreen, I would certainly like to hear you explain how we are homophobics which is what you said many of us were, if you're going to accuse me of being something I would like to know your rationale behind it, thanks.
The homosexual religious community has created God in their image. They try to make themselves above God. I fear for their future. I hope they will realize before it's too late that they are misled.
JC,
Amen! And don't forget John chapter one. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God."
And then a little further on in that chapter it says that "the Word became flesh..."
So you are quite correct.
I have seen many things on these posts, but what sticks out is the confusion of God's Word. Some have suggested that Jesus gave a lot of "speeches" and "talks", but that none of them have been on the subject of homosexuality, so it must be okay.
What I find odd about this argument is that it shows that these confused ones have never actually read the Bible thoroughly. For if they had, they would have seen Revelation 19:13, which says "His robe is dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God". What this means is that if it is written in the Old Testament, Jesus said it. If it is written in the New Testament, Jesus said it. Just because it is not written in red ink doesn't mean Jesus didn't say it. The argument that Jesus didn't expressly say it would point to the possible fact that these little ones are taking somebody else's word for what is written, and not reading it for themselves.
I've also seen justification of the homosexual lifestyle based upon Jesus' words, "Love one another as I have loved you". This love that Jesus speaks of can only come from His Spirit, not the flesh. It is impossible for this type of love to come from the flesh, as it is only available from God. This is evident in that God so loved the world, that He gave his only Son. That this Son, Jesus, would die on the cross, to bear our sins, and that we would have everlasting eternal life if we follow Him, who shed His blood. This love cannot come from the flesh, for if it could, Jesus would have never had to suffer.
For someone to base their relationship with the same-sex, on this passage is very grieving to the Holy Spirit, who was sent to bear witness of Jesus.
I've also seen something quite amazing here. For the followers of Jesus have been providing God's words to refute the homosexual behavior, showing clear evidence of God's disdain for this behavior. What is amazing here is that the homosexual crowd has attempted to refute God's Word, but they can't. They can only change and distort what is written, to justify their positions among men. It would seem that if they can convince other people that their behavior is okay, then maybe God will accept this to. (I believe this is also a useful tactic of Satan as well).
the bible says when I was a child I thought as a child, when I became and adult I thought as an adult. When I was a non-believer i look to justify my life by what is not written in the Bible(you didn't say not to eat the chocolate chip cookies), when I became a believer, I look at what is written in the bible to justify how I am to live(you may have the peanut butter cookies).
"It would be nice if you could confine your views to your own lives and not expect others to live your way. But it seems you just can't. That's a shame."
It would be nice if you could do the same, I could walk down the street with my family and you could never we were a Christian family, however by what you want to instate how can you tell me we could never tell that you lead the homosexual lifestyle. Who is the one who wants to impose upon the other.? you are making statements that can be seen both ways.
"As dongard pointed out, though, the great difference between us is that people like me just want to live our lives as we see fit. You, on the other hand, want to live your lives as you see fit AND coerce others to live their lives your way. That is wrong."
we feel the same way about you imposing your lifestyle in our culture that we feel we have a right to defend ourselves.WQehave every right to defend what we feel or want just as you do. Do not try to make this sound as if your the only one who has rights in this country that should be fought.
WIthout a standard for morality, everything goes. If you say something is harmful, but I say it is not, who is right? If I can 'prove' something harms people, and you can 'prove' the same thing does not, who is right? Who gets to decide?
I used to be Wiccan. THis is a religion that values "do as you want as long as you do not harm others". The problem is that there is no objective definition of harm. For some, it meant not even being able to pray for someone else without their permission. For others, it meant doing anything to prevent greater harm.
WIthout an objective standard, you get people saying it is ok to murder children and adults based on their perceived value to society. And I am not comparing homosexuality to murderers or abusers. I am saying there must be a standard. You say the law provides that, but the law is based on the mores of society at the time. So it becomes ok to murder because the government says so. It becomes ok to murder old, or terminally ill, people because they are a drain on society. If you think this does not happen now, it is happening in Europe, and even here in the US.
What makes something right or wrong? Might? Majority?
Most of the morals that have been in place in this society have been fundamentally based on the Bible. Now that we are removing the Bible from our lives, the morals of this country are degrading. This is why we have divorce, abortion, sex out of marriage is common and expected, etc.
believer and DP - I merely stated my observation, my belief. You have done the same. We're both free to do that. You basically think people like me are Godless, and I basically think you are deluded.
As dongard pointed out, though, the great difference between us is that people like me just want to live our lives as we see fit. You, on the other hand, want to live your lives as you see fit AND coerce others to live their lives your way. That is wrong.
Ultimately, I have no desire to change your views. I know it's never going to happen. People like me just want to live our own way without hinderance from people like you.
It would be nice if you could confine your views to your own lives and not expect others to live your way. But it seems you just can't. That's a shame.
dongard, if you choose to continue living in sin with regards to your sexual practices that is purely your choice and I nor anyone else has any right to interfere with that, but at the same time as Americans we do have the right to allow our opposition to the legalization of those practices to be known. That is the right of every American here in America and if you have a problem with that then you have the right here in America to let your voice be heard as well.
believer
sir, i am an adult and native born citizen of this country. i am tired of christians insisting that they have right to set limits on my rights because of their religion and their superior knowledge.
I do not seek to abridge your rights(and i will grant you that some in the gay community do). nor do i appreciate or respect the all too frequent grouping of my life with murderers, infants, and those suffering from addiction. you have a right to believe what you will. when you attempt to impose force on my right to live as I please, as an american adult - within the bounds of protecting our mutual safety - you sir cross a line that no american should have to accept.
and yes if we were in judge judy's courtroom, she would throw you case out in a new york second.
"That's it right there - it is a fear - there is such a monstrous fear of homosexuality, and loathing for the sexual acts and feelings that one doesn't understand, that it moves people to get this wound up."
There is quite a difference between 'fear of' and 'fear for'. I try to avoid sin instead of understand it. God has a problem with it and that's good enough for me. I really don't think I'm in a position to question God. Are you?
You've played the 'fear card'. You'll find it was a waste around here! :D
dongard, if you read my post you know I hate no one in this matter. When my son was a young boy and disobeyed his mom or I did we hate him because we disciplined him or wait if we really loved him we would have let him play in the middle of the road so we would not hurt his wee little psyche. No, because we loved him we disciplined him. If we as Christians simply sit by and allow these laws to be passed we in essence are condoning sin, telling people it's okay to live a lifestyle that God calls a sin and in fact a lifestyle that may cause them to stay eternally seperated from God or at best keep them from not only becoming the person God wants them to be but keep them from having the close intimate relationship that God wants them to have with Him if they are truly a child of God.
to believer and others
"
The reason we're so adamant about....is that laws are being passed or proposed that will in essence legitamize .....which we believe God clearly calls sin and therefore as Christians we are opposed to them and will speak out against such laws being passed.
that has been the church's rationale for centuries, and in almost every case, to the church's shame it has been wrong. and more than wrong, it has caused the deaths, torture and torment of millions. so many have suffered for your faith.
you should be free to believe what you will, and so should others. please in the name of humanity end the hate and the pursecution of others who do not seek to share your salvation.
The things of (or in) the spiritual realm are more real than you can imagine. I would almost venture to say they are more real then the physical realm. Spiritual events (good or bad) affect the physical. Many things that happen in the physical have their beginning in the spiritual. The Bible says that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. It also says that we do not wrestle (or contend) with flesh and blood, but against spiritual darkness. For example: homosexuality.
That is a spiritual oppression. But wait, you say, scientists have found a "gay gene". What they found is a symptom.
I get a cold. My nose runs, I sneeze and cough, and have a headache. I take Nyquil. My nose stops running, I stop sneezing and coughing, and my headache disappears. Did I get rid of the cold? Not at all. I merely suppressed the symptoms, but I am still sick.
Such is the same for many sinful habits and lifestyles (I'm not talking about just homosexuality. I'm talking about any sin that becomes a lifestyle...gambling, drunkeness, drugs, anger, bitterness, pride, gossip, lust, etc, etc.) Trying to suppress the symptons may help for a while (just as Nyquil wears off over time), but the sickness is still there. Until you get to the root and the cause of that problem, you will remain spiritually sick, and the effects reach into the physical world.
Too many people have been misled to believe that Satan, demons, and spirits do not exist. This is one of Satan's greatest, and most loved lies. For those of you who are familiar with the older Christian music from the 70's and 80's will hopefully remember Keith Green's song titled "No One Believes In Me Anymore." Great song. But when people stop believing that he exists, then he has all the freedom to do and corrupt without fear.
And that's exactly what he's doing.
Many arguments are a little childish here. It is the old way of a child saying but you didn't say this. for example
Daddy may I have some cookies.
yes you may have the peanut butter ones.
Ok, thanks
Son why did you eat the chcolate chip cookies.
You said I could have some cookies
Yes but I told you the peanut butter cookies, you have just disobeyed me son and thee will be some consequences.
wait daddy wait, I wanted the chcolate chip cookies and you said i could have the pb cookies, but you did not say I couldn't have the chocolate chip cookies so I ate them instead, besides cookies are cookies right dad?
No son there are different kinds f cookies and you knew which ones I said you could have just because I didn't tell you, "you can't have the chocolate chips , doesn't mean you can have them for I clearly told you which ones to eat.
The bible says marriage is for man and woman, and says it was not good for man to be alone to He made him a helper(women). This is direct, He does not need to say oh wait let me clarify this a little more. For if someone tells you this one it means this one not the other. If it was good He would of only created men and then the bible would be written differently.
mike
you have to read the entire context of what is written to make judgement on what is said not one verse at a time, which unfortunately is how too many churches teach today. It talk about celibacy in times in which Christians were being persecuted. Paul said it was better to remain celibate and fight for Truth, being married requires individuals to have new responsibility given by God for married couples. However, EVERY man or woman who can not remain celibate because of desires should marry for it is betterto take on those responsibilities than to perform sexual sins. so it is not a commandment for every man or woman, but every man or woman who was not strong enough to remain celibate.
doreen, what is it that were afraid of that makes us homophobic? To be homophobic one would have to be either afraid of homosexuals or afraid of becoming or being a homosexual. Which one are people who are truly concerned about the spiritual condition and destiny of others who are what appears to be trapped in sin? Most Christians I know are not only concerned about those caught up in the sexual practices of homosexuality, but other sins such as substance abuse as well. The reason we're so adamant about homosexuality is that laws are being passed or proposed that will in essence legitamize the sexual practices of homosexuality which we believe God clearly calls sin and therefore as Christians we are opposed to them and will speak out against such laws being passed.
doreen-
We are motivated by Christ and to be Christ-like (Christians). Most of what you may have read on this board is you witnessing the spiritual battle (Ephesians 6 in the Bible) that goes on continuously. Satan tries to re-define Christianity by saying that Christians support gay marriages, abortion and the like, but the Truth states otherwise. You must decide for yourself by reading God's Word (the Bible), pray, repent and be baptised to receive the Gift of Salvation - which is Jesus Christ. It is then that you receive the Counselor to direct you and comfort you.
That's it right there - it is a fear - there is such a monstrous fear of homosexuality, and loathing for the sexual acts and feelings that one doesn't understand, that it moves people to get this wound up. It's odd to me, that's all I'm saying. And I think you are rationalizing your normal feelings of distaste by cloaking them in your religion. Doesn't bother me, like I said I just think it's odd.
Truthfully, the only fear that the gay agenda has is theophobia.
But if by calling people that love people enough to warn them of their pending destruction or wrath from God, homophobes, then I'm certainly homophobic. But I really think the reason the gay community uses the words such as "hate", homophobes, intolerant and numerous other terms is to intimidate and to manipulate those that are in the middle. The gay agenda folks have become masters of browbeating those that know it's wrong, but are afraid to speak out. Trust me, I'm not afraid to speak against evil. The gay agenda is an evil agenda. Demons hoard around the dung.
doreenied
you have to be afraid for there to be a phobia. Calling something that the Bible calls is does not make one afraid.
Seems like a lot of people here go through an awful lot of trouble to justify a condition known as homophobia.
This describes those who want sin to be welcomed into the church:
Jude 1:4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Dongard I pray you have a true vision of hell tonight!
mike2685, I don't believe prophet is referring to purgatory but to the fact that all sin has consequences that impact not only the specific person(s) who committed the sin but to others as well. One verse says that the rain will fall on the just and the unjust alike and this is true of the consequences of sin. It's like the drunk driver who gets into an accident and injures a number of innocent people. They are being effected by the consequences of his sin even though they are not guilty of that sin nor will they be judged for that sin.
prophet, I should have used the term known unconfessed sin in my post and I agree with you 110% on that, be blessed as you serve Him this week, believer
Prophet, please explain what you mean by "won't necessarily fall into judgment but will get the consequence for their actions." Are you talking about more of a purgatory idea? If so, would you mind explaining what you base that idea off of (I'm really not trying to sound superior or something, I am legitimately interested...is there any Biblical basis for the concept of Purgatory Catholicism teaches?)
believer,
I don't believe it will be the unforgiven sins that does America in. I believe it will be the willful, unrepentant, continued practicing of sin that will. But I guess that is the same thing you may be saying. And it's not just homosexuality. All types of sexual sins top the list of sins that are practiced overtly and unrepentantly. Lying is a big one, too. Coveting, maliciousness, anger, pride, and the list goes on. People who do those things willfully, even though they've been warned, are without forgiveness. And a country that does those things as a whole won't necessarily fall into judgement. They'll just receive the recompense for their choice.
Kind of like pointing a loaded gun at your foot, pulling the trigger, and then saying that God was pouring out judgement because your foot got blown off. No. It was just a natural consequence of an action. The same goes with sin. There are natural consequences to sin.
"better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."
Milton may this very moment be wanting to rewrite that! After all, he may no have experienced hell....
After many years, Dr. Spock rewrote his book on child rearing and revised much of it. In fact, it's way closer to Dobson's 'Dare to Discipline' book then it once was. He was asked why he had such a change of perspective. The answer? "I had a daughter...."
"I would rather spend an eternity in hell than serve a god that condemns his creations for so minor an act."
God said to stay away from ONE TREE! Only one. They could eat from every other tree. Still, they ate one piece of fruit. Was it eating the fruit that was so bad or was it the attitude that God didn't have the right to place limits on them? I'm sure that eating a piece of fruit is far more minor than homosexuality yet it change the course of all mankind.
Simply put "I'm not OK, You're not OK". We have sinned against God and He has absolutely no reason to show mercy based on our standards. He does not owe us anything. We broke the contract...period. He has the right to hold us accountable.
believer,
I agree with you to a certain extent. The Bible says that judgement begins in the House of the Lord (chruch). And those "Christian" homosexuals, as well as other Christians that practice other sins without remorse, will be on the front line.
dongard,
You'll get your wish. Well, everything except the reigning part.
"Otherwise they would have to concerned any wrath their own sins would bring."
You'll get no arguement from me! The world and church relationship has been passive agressive for thousands of years. Jesus was assertive.
"God said "no" which Jesus came and undid (much of Lev.) "
There is also much that He reaffirmed such as repeating the OT "for this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife."
I'm not concerned with if you (or I) feel let down or not on this side of judgement. It's at judgement I'm concerned with! The Bible also talks about the rich and religious ... "they have their reward". Oh are they going to wish they hadn't spent all that money on those nice cars, big houses, condos and such when there are so many who are having trouble putting food on the table for their children. Worse yet is some of those people are business owners who are spending the money God gave them in stewardship to take care of those who work for them.
In short, wrong is wrong. Here's one of the key issues. Does the creation have the right to say "you created Adam and Eve but I want 'Adam and Steve"?
It's like owning a car. You have the right to drive it however you want within the law. What if it's someone elses and they want you to drive a certain way. Drive the speed limit when you normally speed. Stop and stop lights when you normally role through them. Do they have the right to tell you how to drive their car?
Who does your life belong to? That's who has the right to tell you what you can and cannot do.
dongard and pvlman, I for one have to echo an Amen to some of your statements. Even though I believe the sexual practices of homosexuality are a sin I don't believe they are the unpardonable sin. And if God does bring His wrath on America it will be for all unconfessed sin and I believe His anger may very well be more focused on His Church in America because we have not been obedient in carrying out His Great Commission and have become more inward than outward focused in our activities. But dongard to make a flippant statement with regards to hell as you did is careless and not well thought out. You see hell is a place of eternal separation from God and all of His godly attributes. No peace, no joy, no love, no contentment, and worse of all no hope that that will ever change. And it doen't matter if you believe in hell or not, because God does. But God desire is that none should perish but that every one should be saved and the only way that can happen is by turning from your sins and turning to God by putting your complete trust in the person and finished work of Christ on Calvary alone.
Dongard-
Well said. You inspire me.
Prophet
If indeed that "The physical act of me kissing or holding hands with my partner....separates you eternally from a relationship with God. I'm sure that 75 short years on earth as a homosexual is worth 10 times the worth of having eternal life with our Father, and God."
I would rather spend an eternity in hell than serve a god that condemns his creations for so minor an act. yes we have a short time here, and to be judged on each and every little act and for that act alone condemned forever and not the sum of our live's work is the work of a sniveling little Obsessive-compulsive micro-manager with delusions of grandeur.
"better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."
I have actually had homosexuals use verse one all by itself to prove that the Bible actually promotes homosexuality. By saying that a man shouldn't attach to a woman, then they argue that he was infering that a man should attach to another man. Which is not the case as clarified in verse 2.
Marriage and real love is between a man and a woman. Anything else is corrupt and twisted, and not of God.
Mike,
Borrow a Bible sometime and read all of 1st Corinthians 7. It talks about how it is better that we remain celebate, but if we cannot control our lust then we should marry (a person of the opposite sex, as it points out) instead of sinning.
And let me show what verse 1 and 2 say together to demonstrate that:
Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
The word "touch" means "to attach to".
Actaully, I think something else in that post bothered you. The truth.
Darn good thing that some Christians have abortion providers and homosexuals to blame for any possible wrath from their God would direct towards the USA. Otherwise they would have to concerned any wrath their own sins would bring.
mike,
I see your point. So when the word of God says not to murder, steal, lie, be disobedient to your parents...we shouldn't take that literally. I like the way you think! Anarchy! That's the ticket to happiness.
Prophet, I flagged your one comment for being purposefully offensive (calling me dense.) There was no point to it...I'm not sure Jesus would have carried himself that way, perhaps you need to repent?
Prophet...it says let EVERY man have his wife, and EVERY woman have her husband...so since we're taking the Bible literally, those who don't have a husband or wife are living in sin, after all, Jesus did say EVERY right? This is what it comes down to! No, Jesus didn't say let every man have a husband or wife, but again, he never said anything condemning homosexuality either! Its not being lazy, its asking why, and there isn't an answer other than people like you saying "well duh, its obvious!" Wow, is that your idea of teaching, because if so, it sucks! The ROOT CAUSE of me hurting myself cannot be that it hurts my relationship with God. For every other issue God said not to do it was because it hurt yourself or someone else physically or emotionally, which is the point I was trying to make if you weren't so hell bent on trying to disagree, and you are actively trying here.
Darn good thing some Christians have the abortion providers and the homoexuals to blame for any potential wrath of their God directed towards the USA. Otherwise they would have only themselves and their own sin to blame
But, then again, how can you miss something you've never had?
mike,
You said "The physical act of me kissing or holding hands with my partner does not hurt me or my partner, nor anyone around us."
Yes, it hurts you. It separates you eternally from a relationship with God. I'm sure that 75 short years on earth as a homosexual is worth 10 times the worth of having eternal life with our Father, and God.
1st Corinthians 7:2 is even more explicit in it's definition of marriage.
"Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
So far, in my studies of the Bible, when it's speaking on marriage, it's never once used the words "life mate" or "partner" or anything of that sort. But every time it speaks of marriage it does use the words man and woman, husband and wife.
So far the evidence to prove that God condones homosexuality is narrowed down to lazy homosexuals who want to ease their fragile ego by saying that God thinks it's okay for them to be lazy and not change.
Daniel Paul...in the OT there were many rules that were just there because God said "no" which Jesus came and undid (much of Lev.) Is there another huge issue in the Bible in which God just said no and you can't clearly figure out "He said no because it is going to hurt them in some way." The physical act of me kissing or holding hands with my partner does not hurt me or my partner, nor anyone around us. Can anal sex hurt you? Absolutely, but we all know anal sex is in no way exclusive to homosexuals. That leads me to believe Paul was speaking to the orgies he was witnessing which is obviously full of bodily lust, can spread disease, and leaves you feeling empty when all is over. When you are truly in love with another person, you feel fulfilled, not let down.
Prophet, I would not call that obvious as it in no way talks about homosexuality...nice stretch though. Here's the thing: The Bible can be interpretted, correct? To one person, the Bible can say something, to another, something else, and we can see through the many interpretations that words are often changed (such as the word homosexual appearing in some texts and not in others.) Also, many Biblical historians who put the Bible in context say Paul was not writing about seeing a committed gay couple, he was writing about Pagan orgies. I'm sure he would write the same today if he went to a gay or straight club. That being said, to you, the Bible might seem obvious, to me, it couldn't be farther from it! If Jesus came to clarify and fulfill, why did he not set the record "straight" (no pun intended..well ok, maybe...)
mike,
Jesus did speak of homosexuality and heterosexuality. He said marriage was between a man and a woman. How much more obvious do you want?
"Lust is a physical/sexual drive, love is a true connection, which the gays who are seeking gay marriage would agree they have with their partner, just as any straight couple would. "
You won't get an arguement from me. It is exactly what gay couples are trying to do. My point is that God said no. As a parent I set rules for my home. They may be different from others homes. Still, it is my right to do so. It is God's right to do so as well. If he says no then the answer is no.
For whatever reason He said no. He gives ideas for why He said no. Still, the question is one of respecting His authority to say no. 'My sheep hear my voice and they follow.'
"If indeed gays were being stoned or it was that big of a cultural taboo that no one would talk about it, why wouldn't Jesus bring it to the forefront?"
His point was for the woman to repent. I have posted from time to time that under law they killed the sinner with the sin. Under grace Jesus died with the sin so we could be free of it.
It doesn't matter what sin it is...Jesus wants us free of it.
Also, notice that Jesus didn't address the adultery either. He just quietly wrote in the dirt. Nobody knows what He wrote but it hit home. Those who wanted to kill over sin went away. The one condenmed by her sin was freed from it.
As for what I said concerning the individual who said I was French (Gaul...). He asked how dare I question someone elses faith. I've found this is the montra of very unloving people and have seen quite a few people beat over the head by this 'don't ask, don't question' mentality.
It's the same concept as 'how dare you tell my child to stop...he wouldn't have actually run out into the street!' As a teacher you would know how many parents don't think teachers should correct childrens behavior.... It's an attitude that extends to the adult world.
mike2685, just because Jesus did not speak to an issue does not mean He either condoned or condemned it. It simply means He did not speak to it, but in many cases many issues were spoken to already in the Scriptures and since He was not going to change the teaching on that issue He simply did not speak to it. With other issues Christ spoke to them in order to clarify or change either how they were being taught or practiced. However, what should concern us more about the issue of homosexuality is that no where in the Bible can you find scriptures that either condone or encourage the homosexual lifestyle and more specifically the sexual practices of that lifestyle. And yet one can find numerous passages that speak to the issues of marriage, the role of husband and wife, the family, and even singleness and widowhood. Don't you think that with an issue so controversial that surely God would speak to it since it is a lifestyle that is mentioned throughout history?
Right, which means he was outspoken on the issue. If indeed gays were being stoned or it was that big of a cultural taboo that no one would talk about it, why wouldn't Jesus bring it to the forefront?
mike2685, He also told the woman caught in adultery to sin no more.
Another thing I just thought of: So Jesus didn't talk about homosexuals because they were all too scared to come out since they would be stoned to death. Jesus did speak up on women being stoned to death, however, why? What was the difference in a women being adulterous and a man being gay? Did Jesus not love gays, and therefore not care if they were stoned?
Also, Jesus didn't talk about things like pornography because there were no computers or cameras, so it wasn't even an issue (he did speak against selling your body for sex, which is what prostitution is though.) If Jesus spoke about a man and man marrying, it wouldn't have made any more sense then because the current law was to stone them automatically. Now, we don't stone gays. What has changed in the law? Could it be we realize gays are human, and have rights, and are capable of loving, which certainly was not Paul's experience when he saw Pagan orgies.
Daniel, I would say that I hear "don't question me, don't question my Bible" from many more fundamental Christians than from Christians who are liberal. I encourage people to question their faith and seek truth as I have. I don't think I will ever be at peace with the Bible until I am face to face with my creator. To call someone unloving because they don't believe the Bible is word for word literal as you do makes no sense. Atheists are quite possible of loving people fully, and gays are capable of doing much more than lusting after one another. Lust is a physical/sexual drive, love is a true connection, which the gays who are seeking gay marriage would agree they have with their partner, just as any straight couple would.
Rolln, I know this through looking at current society. There are thousands of gay couples living together who have adopted children. These children are growing up in much better conditions than the foster care system can provide. Regardless of whether gays get married or not, we still cohabitate, work amongst you, live amongst you, and socialize amongst you as well. That being said, gay marriage has been legal in MA for some time now, and even longer in many other countries throughout the world. Nothing has changed in those areas. There aren't more wars, morals have not suddenly gone haywire, and all together I think it would be safe to say no one noticed a change from when gays were not allowed to marry to where they are now. This will not change your world, it could change mine. I get the fact that you base everything in your life off the Bible, but I don't, nor do many, many Americans, and I think it is wrong in a democracy for the Christian right to push this hard for control over other citizens who do not believe as they do. Morals exist outside of religion, or else any and all atheists would be doing whatever they can to kill and hurt everything they know, yet every atheist I know is kind hearted and loving. I may not be the Christian you want me to be, but it doesn't mean that my morals are all out of whack or that I won't teach my kids morals or hold my husband accountable to our wedding vows.
"The world is bigger than your narrow view."
God is bigger than your world view.... I prefer to not be on a train that will crash and burn at judgement.
"Second, of all Jesus' many, many teachings on many, many subjects he did not once mention homosexuality. Don't you think that's odd"
Actually, not in the least. You see...there were no homosexuals around Jesus at the time because they were all stoned to death! It was a mute subject. Everyone knew it was sin and they were stoned for it. No one questioned it so why address it?
Another point would be John 21:25 "and there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itsef would not containg the boks which were written."
Why would the issue of homosexuality even waste space when it was already crystal clear and punishable by death?
Another point would be that Romans describes homosexuality as 'lust'. Jesus addressed lust as a whole subject without breaking it down into each and every type of lust. Jesus didn't mention pornography either. It's still lust so it's still wrong.
kdelano--you're quite a wounded, unloving person. When you really love someone (agape) you DO question their faith. Paul even questioned Peter in front of people! Paul questioned the Church at Corinth throughout both letters. The Bible talks about going to people when you see sin in their lives. Check Matt 18. Loving people care enough to question anothers faith/beliefs. It dares to risk for the benefit of another.
Self-centered 'love' (called lust and pride) and guilt says "don't question me...don't question anyone else...how dare you!"
It is my hope that you will learn of the love Jesus spoke of called agape love. It dares to question.
mike-
You say that there are no ramification from gays marrying. I'd like to know how you know this. The gay movement has just now taken root into the mainstream and there's a war going on to rid the gay movement much like the abortion movement. The two actually came along side one another in many ways. Has abortion gone away? No! Is there still a cultural battle going on with abortion? YES! The same is going on with with the gay movement. It will never go away. There will be uglies that will go on from both sides of the issue. There have been "Christian" fanatics that have done things to harm the gay movement and there have been gay supporters that have done harm to the Christians. But the point is; this is something that will go on until Christ's return.
Vote YES on Proposition 8 for all you Californians
BOYCOTT McDonalds to take a stand against the cooperate office of McDonalds calling anyone opposed to the gay movement "haters".
Ah Mike you see in a moral society things that are immoral will eventaully bring down a society. Your liestyle is really just one aspect of this decline in morals in this country that is/will bring and end to this country. As far as you can remember you have been gay. But there is more then one study that suggest that in your baby yearsis where our personities are set. Question do you remember your first bottle? second? second?or your diaper being changed? How about being told no when as babies do they start to explore things they shouldn't? and this is just a small sample of the things, almost all people can't remember, at a time when our person is rapidly being formed. God is still calling you and He can and will set you free Mike, if you want to be. Heed His call. Gods Blessing on you In Christ Tom
Tom, here is where it gets interesting legally. There is no scientific evidence either way showing that it is nature or nurture. I can tell you, from my own experience, there certainly was no conscious choice to be gay, that defies common sense. Unfortunately for my side, there is no evidence that it happened before I was born, therefore eliminating any choice as well as the "sinful" aspect of it (we make a choice to sin, of course.) What it will come down to is not religion, but rather experiences. Looking at a state like MA that has experienced no moral landslide, had anyone propose marrying their goat or 8 year old, or have a sudden rash of youth wanting to become gay, I believe our legal system will realize gay marriage is in no way harmful to our society and will legalize it.
Ah Mike that is a silly agrument. One this country was founded on Christian standards and for the last 200 years or Christians have stove to bring freedom to those who were oppressed. But in your case homosexaulity is a choice that is at it's core against the laws of nature and if I may be so bold against the theory of evolution (which I hold as a defunk theory by the way)not to mention that it is against the very nature of God and His standards.(thats why it is a sin)again His standard is the bases for the laws of this country. The gay life is a immoral lifestyle and as such is contary to this country and it's principles. John Adams said "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other" Those who are part of this life have the right to do what they want in their own bedrooms, However because it is a choice that right stops when it is done or advocated in the public square as it does affect the overall morals of this country. As such Christian who belief in what Gods words says will always stand up to defend His standards. Because if we dont our Constitution is inadequate to govern us. Mike God is calling you for ask for forgiveness to repent and accept Jesus as Lord. To walk the narrow road that leads to eternal life with Him. Surrender Mike I think you know this to be true,,Seek His kingdom and His rightouesness. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
Jesus said it would be better you were never born than to hurt a child...sex with a child hurts them for life, that's self explanatory. Jesus said your body is your temple, sex with animals can kill you instantly, that's self explanatory (not to mention, its technically rape, since one of the partners cannot consent.) Gay marriage is not only about sex, it is not about power over the other partner. It is about 2 people who love each other and want legal recognition from their government. If Christians are barring this, then Christians begin to run the country. That opens the door for laws such as Jews not being allowed to celebrate their holidays, or Muslims not being allowed to pray in public, all because it offends Christians and is against what they believe. I see why you're upset about it, you have every right to want to vote on it, but if this law passes, it will in no way effect you, so you need to sit down and stop complaining.
The people who want sin condoned, and get upset when others point out the sin or say that such do not belong in the church, do not realize we are doing what we were commanded to do:
Ephesians 5:11
Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
But they refuse to see the truth because they do not fear God:
Psalm 361:-3
1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes. 2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin. 3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
They value 'gay rights' and the ability to change society to condone their sin. But list to Christ:
Luke 16:15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight."
So often we want to embrace our sin and justify ourselves instead of embrace truth and recognize and reject our sin.
However, there will come a time when God's patience will be at its limit. At that time, Jesus will judge everyone, and the ones who do not love Him, and show their love through obedience, will be sent to the lake of Fire, the second death.
2 Timothy 4:1-3
1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage - with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Rev 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Be warned folks, we are in the end times. Christ is coming back, and it DOES matter where you fall on believing Him or not.
DelightntheLord, Tom, Rolln4Him, Phropet,
Good words from God. Amen.
Good question Argyle, but I don't think many would wait to have sex before marriage. Very hard to do in this day and age for most people, Christian and non Christian alike. What restraining influence would a non Christian or homosexual have to postpone sexual gratification?
Do the homosexuals here who want to get married also want to wait untill they get married to have sex?
kd, Jesus said that many will be called few will be chozen. Christianty has always been in the minority, Ah Bibilical,Jesus following,Shepard hearing, His voice Christianty. One day sir it will no longer be so. Jesus is coming back and whether you like it or not, He is coming back as a King prepared to judge those who rejected Him. That rejection includes twisting His words and living in continual state of sin. Which includes things like the homosexaul lifestyle, those who continue commiting adultry or are haveing sexual relations outside of marriage. IE sexual sins. So call yourself what you want, but according to Scripture, remember Gods word? you are living in rebellion to God and He will not stand for it. Repent kd turn from your wicked ways and seek His kingdom and His rightouesness. Accept Jesus as Lord and follow the narrow road if you wish to be counted as a Follower of the Way, a Christian. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
"The world is bigger than your narrow view. It's not 1600 anymore."
It must upset some people that our eternal God and His Word never changes. It doesn't change with the times, because it is timeless. It doesn't change with people's views or morals, because God's ways are above us. And it doesn't change because one person, or group of people, don't like what it says.
kdelano falls into the second catagory of Christians. The ones that will not be part of the Bride of Christ.
You also said "I am a Christian, no matter what you say. And you can't take that away from me no matter what you ever do."
Well, I'm a brain surgeon, no matter what you say. And you can't take that away from me.
But we'll let you play pretend as long as you want. It won't change our destination.
kdelano,
You said "You guys will just never see anything that you don't already see. And what you already see is a minority, fringe viewpoint that is swirling its last few rounds in the bowl as the world marches on."
Do you know how many times in the past 2000 years that's been said about Christianity? More times than anyone can count. And yet this "weakening" and "dying" belief continues to flourish around the world and millions come to the saving knowlege of our Lord Jesus.
And on insignificant person, with one uneducated and insignificant opinion, won't even phase the power of the Gospel.
You guys will just never see anything that you don't already see. And what you already see is a minority, fringe viewpoint that is swirling its last few rounds in the bowl as the world marches on.
I am a Christian, no matter what you say. And you can't take that away from me no matter what you ever do.
You can believe any darn thing you want. I support you in that. Knock yourselves out. (The more fringe it is the more people in the world around you you'll continue to alienate.) But the days of your views influencing my rights in the secular society we share are very limited.
That, I can take comfort in.
The world is bigger than your narrow view. It's not 1600 anymore. The train is leaving the station so either get on or get out of the way.
Thanks for the prayer, Tom and we are agreed and are in one accord with you on that.
The Gospel is indeed 'foolishness' to those who are perishing but I find it a hopeful sign that they are even arguing about this on the Christian Post. Perhaps God will grant them sight and repentance.
Amen Prophet, rolln4, Daniel Paul, wbmore, and delighteninthelord it is hard for one not of God to hear the word's of God. May they seek His Kingdom and His righteousness before they slip from this world into the next, Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
hlerwin,
You said "Most of world Christendom would not qualify as "Christian" by your narrow, American, evangelical definition."
No, the American definition of Christian is this: Anyone who says they're a Christian must be one, because they said so.
There are two types of Christians in the world. The Christians that strive to attain the image of Christ, which is the right but hard way. I and other's on this website would be included in that group.
And the Christians that strive to make God into their image, which is the easy but wrong way. You and many others would be in this group.
But before you start touting how we (I) twist the scriptures to suit our agendas, let me tell you what my agenda is. My greatest desire in this world is to get drunk and have sex with as many women as I can.
But God's agenda, and greastest desire for me, is that I cease from that sin and live holy. His agenda is better. It's a lot harder (which is why a lot of homosexual "christians" don't want to change. They're lazy), but it's the right way. So I scrap my agenda and take on His. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Homosexual "christians" walk in the flesh. They do not walk in His spirit; there is no sin in God. And homosexuals don't want to admit that homosexuality is a sin because then it would mean that they would have to actually do something and change.
But remember, there is difference between sinning, and practicing sin. I don't think that we can ever cease from sinning, but we can cease from practicing sin.
kdelano,
If you willingly support and promote sin, then you are indeed not a Christian.
Garageguy...
Opinion, are you not tolerent of another's opinion?
Why the mad rush for homosexuals wanting to get married while the popularity of marriage has fallen among heterosexuals?
Gays certainly aren't becoming married to experience God's blessing nor for intimate fellowship with Him. It is a fact that marriage is ordained by the God of the Bible and not by men; no "opinion" needed, just the facts.
So, why marry? In a quest for society's approval of abberrant sexual practice and to further the agenda of homosexuals to break down the fundamentals of the country and civilization (which depends on the family structure).
By perverting the original intention of the institution of marriage, IT IS My Opinion that the result of this desire for marriage on the part of gays is to undermine society and the family structure and rendering marriage meaningless.
Why? Because man is destructive to his own wellbeing; self seeking individuals in rebellion toward the God of the Bibile go to great lengths to subvert civilization to gratify their own needs. Romans 1:28-32.
One of those needs is societal approval...you desparely seek my approval for your lifestyle. Not satisfied to keep your sexuality behind closed doors like decent folks, you parade your lust and subvert and breakdown the laws of this country; the very fabric of civilized society. Look what happened to Rome when that society embraced all kinds of sexual debauchery. We're on the same road they were on and it is clearly seen that as a country we are reaping what we sow.
By the way KD Jesus doesn't specifally say that He died for you so using your reasoning that must mean you can not recieve Jesus as Lord, noe of can. Only apparently John and Petere and Andrew or maybe the rest of the 12, opps 11. What a silly argument. Seek God and His righteousness KD. Gods Blessing in Christ Tom
That's the problem with the gay community. They want it spelled out for them - they don't want to use their common sense.
As was posted earlier; Jesus does not talk about homosexuality specifically; but nor does he talk about kid sex and animal sex specifically. So is it OK to have kid sex and animal sex???? .....Kdelano???
Of course not! Gays claim that they've stuggled SOOOO Muuuchh with their sexuality. What a farce this argument is - who hasn't. Really, all they want is to be free of their sexual perversions and that's why they spend time on Christian sites trying to convince themselves that they ar OK with GOD. We're just the ambassador's (messengers and servants of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords) so their argument is not with us, it's with Him - Jesus! We're just trying to convey to you that you're going to eternal damnation if you don't repent.
kd it is exactly because you chose to change the meaning of what a Christian is, to one that is contary to what God in His word says it is that we question your salvation and your relationship to God. There are to be many false teachers and preacher in the last days. You sir by the words that you write as well as the Mikes on this post tell us that you are one of the false teachers and as such you are in need of a Savior that can tranform your mind, to help you walk the narrow road that Jesus said we must walk. Please seek His kingdom and righteousness, repent and ask for forgiveness, accept Jesus as Lord and He will set you free. As for garage you may not care about Christian aproval but you will one day care about Gods approval or dis-approval. Please seek Gods kingdom and His righteousness, accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and get on the narrow road that leads to salvation. Gods blessing In Christ Tom
DanielPaul, boy you are a piece of work. First, how dare you questions another person's relationship to God or their faith. What gall!
Second, of all Jesus' many, many teachings on many, many subjects he did not once mention homosexuality. Don't you think that's odd, if being gay is such a terrible threat to the very fabric of society? One can interpret in whatever way one wishes, and I've no doubt that your interpretations are greatly different from mine, but my point is: if homosexuality was half the big whoop-de-do you make it out to be I believe Jesus would have addressed it directly.
You are precisely the reason I'm glad not to be the type of "Christian" you are. Yuck.
Delight: I don't give a rat's patooty about your approval. The reason the application rates drop off is because the backlog has cleared. If you have 5,000 couples wanting to marry today, then tomorrow it becomes legal, after those 5,000 tie the knot the rate will slow to whatever rate it was in leading up to the backlog of 5,000 in the first place. Duh.
Your whole first sentence is nothing but opinionated molarkey. How the heck would you know what gays want? What exactly makes you an expert on the subject? Are you gay? No, but you sure are good at inventing convenient explanations that magically support your opinions...on matter you know nothing about.
The idea of marriage has been insituted by God and designed for procreation and intimate fellowship within the guidelines of one male and one female in union with God. I find it amazing that gays would want to "marry". Other than to use it another in your face, approve my lifestyle choice soap box for the gay agenda. I've heard it said but have no hard statistics that when gays are allowed by the state to legally marry that initially those applying for licenses are numerous, but these numbers fall off as time goes on. Once accepted by critical mass, the statement being made; gays have little interest in marriage for the sake of marriage, rather they use marriage to make a political statement. Why gays want my approval for their lifestyle demonstrates to me that their God given conscience is at odds with their behavior and they look for acceptance by forcing their views on society at large. As an aside; re who is a Christian? Remember what Christ said himself, "narrow is the gate to life and few find it but wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many go." If your definition of Christian is wide and all inclusive, then which gate will you enter into?
Mike2685,
Spitzer's study was never intended to study success rates, therefore there was no need to find a ramdom sample. The focus of the study was to see if ANYONE who had previously self-identified as homosexual was able to successfully change their orientation. The answer was yes.
I know, it goes against what you want to believe, so homosexuals who want to think their sin is unchangable will denigrate it, rather than look at it for what it really is.
This is from the same guy who led the fight to remove homosexuality as a disorder from the DSM. Now he's a hack, according to the LGBT folks, where as before this study, he was the poster child.
Question: I don't see where Jesus said not to have sex with animals or children. Do the gay folks here who said "Jesus never mentioned same-sex relationships" so Jesus must not be condenming it think it's OK to have sex with animals and children?
"Prophet, I am a Christian. Not at all your kind of Christian, something for which I am thankful, but I am indeed a Christian."
Exactly what is your kind of Christian? The word Christian was given by the Romans as a slur to those who followed Jesus.
Jesus said to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind; and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said that a seed has to fall to the ground and die before new life can come from it. Jesus said one man and one woman for life. Jesus said quite a few things that you are posting is wrong. If Jesus was wrong...why do you 'follow' Him?
kdelano-
There's no such thing as a "your kind of Christian". If you are a Christian, then repent from the lie of same-sex relationships are of God.
Tom-
You're absolutely right! The mikes and hlerwins of this forum are actually worst than an unbeliever; I think they knew the Truth and now have turned from the Truth. Somewhere along the line, they got sucked in to the lie of the Devil.
Prophet, I am a Christian. Not at all your kind of Christian, something for which I am thankful, but I am indeed a Christian.
heiwin and mikes---Jesus said those that know Him will follow His way. By you all's written words you are not following His ways thus you are nothing more then antichrist trying to make Christianty something it is not. That is as far from being Christian as you can get. Yes we all may know the Bible, (something in which you don't apparently), and when we look at the evidence in the light of Scripture the evience is overwhelming that Homosexaulity like any other Sin is still a sin and can and will lead to eternal seperation from God, I believe it is called hell. God is calling you to confess your sins, ask for forgiveness and repent,(turn away from your sins). You can get to heaven no other way but through Jesus Christ and to do that you need to accept Him as Lord and turn from your sins. Please seek His kingdom and His rightouesness not mans. Gods Blessing in Christ Tom
Aww, Rolln, do we hurt your feeling when we call you ignorant? I'd say I'm sorry, but you're not really helping your cause much buddy. I didn't invalidate you because you quickly pulled some things up, you said it yourself. You said that you quickly googled some things, but that if you had more time, bla bla bla. You don't take the time to research what you're saying, and yes, you come off as ignorant consistently.
"The main criticism of the article involves the method of 'selection' of the participants. The subjects were fed to Spitzer by a religious organization involved in so-called 'reparative therapy' and an association consisting of a very small minority of mental health professionals who promote so-called 'reparative therapy'. It is not a random sampling of gay and lesbian individuals or even a random sampling of gay and lesbian individuals who have experienced so-called 'reparative therapy'."
That should clear up using Spitzer's new paper as evidence. Christians are desperately trying to muddle the evidence so it works in their favor. Hmm, very Christlike. You talk about us calling people names, HELLO, how many names have been thrown around in here "perverts, deviants, morons, etc." You cry and pretend its only liberals who call names, but Rolln, I've called you out quite a few times for calling other people names. You are nothing more than a hypocrite. That's the game so many Christians play: they memorize the Bible so they can scream out everyone else's short comings and try to cover up their own. Not once have I heard a single Christian speak in an honest light about their own sins or answer the question I had previously posted. You are full of hot air, and the rest of America sees right through your arguments. You pretend you are doing God's work, but what you truly seek is power over other human beings, and that most certainly is not of God.
hlerwin-
OOooooo, using another one of the gay agenda's vocabulary words you all love to pull out to demean anyone - "ignorant" ; oooooo, you gay agenda folks are soo tough.
Why don't you throw in "hate", "homophobe", and a few others. The world is starting to do a collaborative yawwwnnn.
The gay agenda's evilness in trying to redefine what a Christian is will never work. Gay is perversion, God is not!
There are two mikes here and I believe that both mikes are trying to claim gay as being something God has ordained. However, we all know (and anyone that does a simple reading of the Bible) that God condemns gay relationships. One of the Mikes mentioned Soul Farce (Soul Force as they call it), but it's a farce because they're trying to compare their agenda to the civil rights movement, but there's no comparison to be made. The gay agenda does anything and everything to get media attention. Soulfarce has receive some scant media, but the media is starting to realize the scam in this organization. They don't respect anyone, they're not interested in listening to anyone - they just want attention. REally what they need is Jesus.
Where do you smug characters get off pronouncing who is a Christian and who is not?
Most of world Christendom would not qualify as "Christian" by your narrow, American, evangelical definition. Thank God most of the world does not care what you think of them. Many - not all - of you seem to know nothing BUT the Bible. You pronounce kdelano "not Christian." I pronounce you "ignorant."
kdelano,
And if you're not a Christian, please do not give us "expertise" on being a Christian when you're not one yourself. And pass that along to all your buddies.
Mike Believers are told to judge them by their fruit. When I read the life you are living by the words you write I see that you are not right with the Lord. Matthew say in chapter 7 verse 22 not every one who calls Him lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven, only those who do the will of the Father. James 1 verse 22 says "but be doers of the word, and not just hearers, decieving yourselves".
Mike He is calling you to repentance, to turn away from that which you know is wrong, Accept His Son as Lord and follow His way. My desire is to one day see you in heaven and to give you a big fat hug and a praise the Lord cause your there. Seek His kingdom Mike. As for your studies, I don't need to. My world view starts with what the Bible says is true. Anything that says contary to Scripture is wrong, specially when we have plenty of evidence that support our postion. Look towards God Mike. Gods Blessing in Christ Tom
"The psychiatrist who led the team that deleted homosexuality from the diagnostic manual in 1973, now says homosexuality may sometimes be changeable". This is regarding Robert L. Spitzer. See study: "Can Some Gay Men and Lesbians Change Their Sexual Orientation?" published Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 32, No. 5, October 2003, pp. 403-417.
http://www.narth.com/docs/spitzer3.html
http://www.drthrockmorton.com/interviewdrspitzer.pdf
http://www.narth.com/docs/evidencefound.html
http://www.cwfa.org/articledisplay.asp?id=5458&department=CFI&categoryid=papers
Oh please! More expertise on what it is to be gay from people who "supposedly" aren't gay! Ha! You either know what you're talking about or you don't. And if you're not gay yourself, you DON'T.
We'll rely on you when we need an expert of fanatical religious paranoia.
DP -
That's there problem; they don't accept proof. They (the gay community) are bent to live a life of sin. I believe there's a scripture on that - LOL!
I have changed lives to prove it. Then gays say they "weren't really gay" to start with. How long does a person have to practice homosexuality before they are "gay enough"?
I have found that any repentant gay "wasn't gay enough". This is the problem. Exactly what proof would you accept? After all, if we learn twice as much about the brain as we do now, we might reach the level of dangerous. Right now were just guessing for the most part.
You can only go with what you know. People who have been gay for years who are no longer gay.
Here's the problem...those who do not wish to acknowledge God as God will not be satisfied no matter what you tell them or what is proven. I am a firm believer there will be people in hell still believing they were right and God was wrong for sending them there!
The truth is it's tuff to surender. We don't want to lose. But the Bible says he who seeks to save his life shall lose it. Perhaps this is why you still have more questions. You're trying to find something. It's the same thing gay or straight.
mikey-
Just because it's a quick search then it's invalid?? Ummmm. Don't think so. Nice try though.
It has been common knowledge that homosexuality is linked to pedophiles- READ MY ARTICLES!!
I do concede that that the APA has RE-Evaluated their diagnosis, but that's only because they sway with public opinion. That's why I say they'll will validate pedophile as a healthy sexual orientation.
You don't have anal and that's great, but most do and have paid a heavy physical price to do so.
The bottom line is that you've rejected scripture - thus God. Repent.
Incest among adults is nothing different than the "love" among homosexuals. So, no true homosexual, or true homosexual proponent, would in now way try and deny them of their right to marry.
Hey mike,
Get a clue. Only a crazed atheist would twist what is said to fit their argument. I said nothing about pedophilia. I did say incestuous marriage, but only someone who's mind is most likely geared for that kind of sin would assume that I was talking about children. Um, to be more specific for the learning impaired...adult incestuous marriages. I didn't know I needed to be extremely specific, but some people have no common sense.
Pump the brakes here speedy! You literally just discredited your information by saying you quickly Googled it, then in the same breath you said it was fact that gays are linked to pedophiles. Did you take the time to read what I posted, which in turn had links to quite a few studies discrediting your own? On what grounds are you trying to discredit them (none, other than your stubbornness, I would imagine.) You claim gay sex is unhealthy, but my partner and I don't have anal sex, which is what I'm assuming you refer to. On the other hand, I know a few straight couples that practice anal sex, so it really can't be called gay sex if its not exclusive to gays. Gays and lesbians may not be able to produce their own children on their own means, but they most certainly can adopt children and raise them in stable, loving homes, thus nurturing the well being and normal psycho-social development of the child (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/lgpsummary.html). There are many scholars who say it is in fact you who have twisted God's word to mean he is condemning homosexuality, so I'd say the jury is still out on that one. Your last line is perhaps the most asinine of all: claiming that "no society in history ever existed that has any gay history." Could you please explain what you mean by that? I'm fairly certain Greek and Roman civilizations had homosexuality, and by golly, they're still around today! Basically, you made a bunch of unfounded claims. I may just stop reading what you type, it appears you're not worthy of my time.
garbageguy and mike-
Those studies I threw at you were very quick google searches. If I actually wanted to spend the time to research, I'd be able to produce for you much more. But I think you are right - it becomes a my studies/your studies thing and since your not interested in truth nor want to discuss it, then we're wasting time. Facts are that gay sex is unhealthy sex; pedophile is strongly linked to gay men, gay men and women can never produce biological children to call their own, God condemns the lifestyle, no society in history ever existed that has any gay history, so ...eventually this fad will die out and hopefully you two will repent.
Tom, what is laughable is you did not read our studies which give plenty of good reason why I don't believe anything rolln has attempted to contribute. You can sit there and laugh, but I believe you are making God angry by your willingness to dive headfirst into the garbage being posted on here because it gives you more reason to hate gays. I have read the Bible, I do believe in Jesus, and I have gone to Catholic school from 2nd grade through 4 years of college: Do not tell me I have not accepted Jesus. I have prayed and tried to not be gay, but soon realized Jesus loves me as I am and it is not his will to change me. Exodus functions on a lie, that they can change people, when in fact they have astronomically high rates of failure (including at least 2 founding members who came out and began a relationship together.)
mike and garage My my you all are judgemental arn't ya's. Instead of using Gods word to refute what we say you just turn your attack dogs loose. Instead of reading the study's we bring forth you just renounce them as not creditable. It is kind of laughable if there wasn't such eternal consquences involved. God is calling you mike to surrender to His Son Jesus to accept Him as Lord to follow His way not your man made follow the leader off the cliff way, but the way that leads to everlasting life with Him! That goes for you to garage man only you seem to be a lot further from the truth than is mike. repent garage before it is to late. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
rolln4hm, of all your little blasts of "information" only ONE of them cited an actual source. And what was the source? "jesus-is-savior.com" That's not a credible, neutral, or in any way authoritative source.
(In fact, here's a site that shines a spotlight on just what a bunch of wackos they are:
http://therefinersfire.org/jesus_is_savior.htm)
That's like saying, "It's true and my source is cuz by friend said it." Duh. What are you, five? The only people who are going to believe your falsehoods and paranoid hysteria are people insuffiently educated to either find facts themselves or differentiate a credible, objective source from one that isn't. Basically, people like you who already believe that nonsense.
Thgings like "a study in Archives of Sexual Behavior" don't count if you don't produce this supposed study; I'd want to see who performed the study, who sponsored it, when was it done, etc. to be able to determine its credibility. If you can't produce this supposed evidence it's nothing more than hot air from you. If you saw it and it really exists, how about a link?
And really, what makes you such an expert on homosexuals if you're not one yourself? I think in general terms the gay folks posting here have a little more credibility about what it is to be gay.
This is getting fun because you are making this easier and easier the more you try.
Rolln, 16-19 would not make you a pedophile, you need to be under a certain age, and 16 is the age of consent in many states. Sorry, you lose.
Women should not be submissive to their husbands in everything, they should be equals.
Daniel, do you have any provable evidence to show homosexuality is a choice? I doubt it. You discredit thousands of doctors who agree, and I believe they support more liberal views not because politics come first, but because that is where their studies are leading them.
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/HTML/facts_molestation.html [read this, it disproves any of the nonsense rolln claims is his truth. Rolln, if you claim your sources to be true, then I can hardly believe you to be a credible scholar on the Bible.]
To Mike2685:
You said: "JC, so Jesus also said women should be subserviant to their husbands in all ways, that women shouldn't wear pants (since wearing clothing of the opposite gender is forbidden) and all the other rediculous rules which he negated when he came to earth?"
Beloved, Jesus said in Matthew 5:17: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Dear one, fulfill is not the same as negate. Jesus also continued in verse 19 and said: "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
There can only be one truth. You can try to change it, but it is what it is. You can call an orange anything you want, but it is still an orange.
"Jesus also said women should be subserviant to their husbands in all ways"
The word is submissive. It is quite different than subserviant. Employees are submissive to their bosses everyday without a second thought. We all know it's the bosses head on the platter when we mess up so if we do what we are told to we are in the clear! The Bible says that the husband answers for his household before God.
Also, the concept of who was in charge in the marriage never was even mentioned until sin entered into the world. In short, Eve was not told to be submissive to Adam when they were living in the garden. Think about it!
Then Paul clarifies it when he says for husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church. The wife to be submissive to her husband as onto the Lord. Interesting word 'as'...the greek words used here are not the same.... Still, both are 'as an example of'. The purpose of the husband / wife relationship as taught in the Bible is as an example of the relationship between Christ and His church. it's an object lesson.
That really does explain why marriage is under attack from all sides now doesn't it. After all, satan can't have a healthy example of Christs love for us being shown now can he?
"Would God say oh, sorry, you're just not trying hard enough?"
Actually, you're trying too hard. The Bible says salvation is a gift from God. It isn't something you can earn or deserve. The most difficult thing about giving up and adiction is getting out of the denial. Either what you are doing is really wrong to you or it's not.
As for why homosexuality isn't called an adiction by the AMA...they are prohomosexual in their political positions yet they have have not credible evidence to back up any of their claims. Isn't it interesting that all the resources of the AMA can't prove anything concerning homosexuality?
One rule of radio is that silence is loud! The silence of the AMA when it comes to provable data is deafening!
i find it interesting that the mike's and gargeguys and kd's of the world when confronted with the evidence both Biblical and secular start to call names and start to do tap dances around the issues. Go rollin keep it coming maybe just maybe when enough light and truth enters into their life they will begin to see the darkness they live in. Mike? kd? garge? Please seek God and His righteousness. Jesus died for you over 2000 years ago because He and the Father loves you, not the love humans have sunk to, but a perfect love. One that heals the sinfull nature. A love that cast out all fear. A love that will heal your hurts, A love that will be poured into you by Gods Holy Spirit giving you the ability to love the way He,(God) intends it to be. Surrender to this Jesus and He will set you free. Gods Blessing in Christ Tom
It's not just the men. Women have now been on the surge to have sex with children. We're reading about it in the news regularly - teacher/student sex.
I'll reiterate once again: The problem one has when they justify their perversions rather than use God's Holy Word to use as their moral guide; anything goes. If you're having gay sex, then who are you to tell someone else that their kind of sex is wrong - kid sex, animal sex whatever. When we use God's Word - our Holy Heavenly Father - then we have a protector from the sick mentality that Satan is throwing at us incessantly.
REPENT AMERICA!
Bruce Mirken is a homosexual and San Francisco journalist who was arrested in 1998 for attempting to have sex with a 13-year-old boy he had contacted through the Internet. When he entered a Sacramento park to sodomize the boy, he was met by police who had been tracking his activities on the Internet.
Thorstad, of course, is a life-long pederast [pedophile]and homosexual activist who clearly describes the important linkage between homosexuality and pedophilia. In a speech given before a homosexual group in Mexico in 1998, Thorstad said: "Pederasty is the main form that male homosexuality has acquired throughout Western civilization-and not only in the West! Pederasty is inseparable from the high points of Western culture-ancient Greece and the Renaissance." (David Thorstad, "Pederasty And Homosexuality," NAMBLA web site)
Homosexuals comprise only a small percentage of the population, yet account for an extraordinarily high percentage of offenses against children.
A report from the Journal of Sex Research which noted that homosexual pedophiles commit about one-third of the total number of child sex offenses, even though they are outnumbered by heterosexuals 20 to one. Less than four percent of the population commits one-third of the offenses against children!
A study in Archives of Sexual Behavior, which found that of 229 convicted child molesters surveyed, “85 percent of offenders against males described themselves as homosexual or bisexual.â€Â
In The Gay Report, homosexual researchers report data showing that better than 7 out of 10 homosexuals surveyed had at some time had sex with boys 16 to 19.
Read this article for a little education yourself. This was just a quick 'google". I'll look for more.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Sodomy/pedophile_connection.htm
kdel - amen! That rolln person is nothing but a whack job. You can't help people like that. Delusional.
rolln4hm, that post about pediphiles was complete falsehood. That means one of two things: you actually believe it and are grossly misinformed (in which case you are less culpable but I pity your ignorance) OR you know darn well it's not true and choose to knowingly propagate falsehoods to suit your goals (in which case YOU are the evil here). Either way, those of us with brains see right through the likes of you. And always will. Mike, good for you for calling this guy out for what he is. He will never ever cite a credible source because obviously there isn't one. What's really sad, though, is all the other nutjobs out there who don't know better will automatically believe his falsehood because they fit conveniently with their own uneducated beliefs. So tragic that we have this kind of thing in our country.
mike-
You can flag, but you can't run. Just because you say you're not a pedophile doesn't mean the studies WE HAD ALREADY POSTED earlier aren't true. You just reject the studies. These are the gays that admit to having desires to have sex with kids. NAMBLA is growing over the years - this is an ORGANIZATION that has fostered and lobbied for their rights. I'm sorry that you are feeling the guilt by association, but it's not my intention. My main point is very simple: You take the BIBLE out of the picture - like gay sex - and you will be able to justify ANY and EVERY type of behavior: Polygomy, pedophile, bestiality .... you name it. I'm glad you set your moral line at pedophile, but that doesn't mean that others agree with you and WHO ARE YOU to tell them they are wrong- right?
JC, so Jesus also said women should be subserviant to their husbands in all ways, that women shouldn't wear pants (since wearing clothing of the opposite gender is forbidden) and all the other rediculous rules which he negated when he came to earth?
After rereading I decided to flag you since your posting was offensive and misinformed. The majority of gay men most certainly do not want to have sex with children. If you disagree with this, please post a link to a study, or the exact text, as I would like to read it myself. If you are so adamant that homosexuality is a sin, then surely you would agree lying is as well (bearing false witness against one's neighbor, tisk tisk)
Rolln, I posted several studies yesterday saying that no, in fact, the correlations are largely read into. There is also a correlation between pedophiles being right handed or being the 2nd or 3rd son in a family. Does that mean anyone who is right handed could be a pedophile? Certainly not. NAMBLA is a group of a little over a thousand members, yet they are one of the largest advocacy groups in the world. At over 1,000, they're hardly a blip on anyone's radar screen, yet you continue to post their nonsense as a way to make all gays look like monsters. Great tactic: When your logic fails, try to make people fear for their children. Its hateful and certainly not of God. I suggest you read over the articles as they were quite enlightening.
Troyg,
You reminded me of Christ's love. Listen to His words:
Luke 16:19-31
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
To Mike2685:
You said: "Again, I ask you: If homosexuality was such an abomination, such a horrific sin against God, why did Jesus never mention it? He mentioned murdering, lying, blasphemy, hurting children...never again homosexuality."
Beloved, why are you discounting what Jesus said. Just because it is not written in red ink doesn't mean he didn't say it. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood and His name is called The Word of God. Rev (19:13)
His name is called The Word of God. Meaning, that if it is written in the Old Testament, then He said it. If it is written in the New Testament, He said it.
So, yes it is written, and yes Jesus did in fact say it.
Dear one, again, there can only be one truth.
Jesus did mike quit trying o deny it. Jesus validate that marriage was between a man and a women and he validated that sex outside of marriage was wrong a sin. You dont have to read between the lines just listen to what God is trying to tell you. You are on the wide road to destruction. You need to repent and get on the narrow road that leads to eternal life. It is what Gods word says. troyg when you distort the word of God and twist what the Gospel is about you are an antichrist so the message is the same. You need to repent and surrender your life to Christ.
Mike the constitution was written by God fearing men and they use the Bible in many ways to frame its precepts. John Adams said "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadeguate to the goverment of any other" and this is just one quote from the father of this country. Besides why should anyody have special rights when the activety they chose to engage in is of their own choice. Doesn't make sense. Seek His kingdom and His righteousness mike. He is waiting for you to surrender all to His Lordship. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
Gene Robinson goes on:
"...And then, after the service, there was Emily. I had been told about her by her vicar. She's about twenty years old and has muscular dystrophy. Her mobility is impaired, and her speech is labored. And she has recently announced to her family and friends that she is lesbian. She told her mother and her vicar that she wanted to be there to meet Bishop Robinson. I made sure she was brought up to the private space where we all gathered after the service.
She walked onto the terrace tentatively. I greeted her, noticing that her hands were very weak. With great difficulty, and needing time to shape each word as carefully as she could, she told me what my words and my ministry have meant to her. I asked her if I could hug her, and she melted into my arms for a long embrace. In that moment, I remembered why I was here in London, why I was talking about God's love for all of God's children. I remembered how MANY of God's lgbt children have never heard those words about themselves, or believed them. I was here for Emily, and Nick, and countless others I will never know. God loves them so much, and it must break God's heart that they doubt it."
WB - I hear Christ speaking much more in Gene Robinson's words than yours.
Wbmoore -
Last night I was reading Gene Robinson's blog he is writing from the Lambeth conference. Since your way of "loving" me (and God?!) is to call me a heretic and a liar, and claiming I call God a liar, one if his stories (the youngish man) reminded me of you:
"By now, you will have probably read about the service last night at St. Mary's, Putney. The church was filled to capacity, the music was glorious, the crowd was warm, welcoming and supportive. It was clear that everyone wanted to be there. Except that one person wanted to be there for different reasons.
As I began to preach, this youngish man with long hair and long sideburns, carrying a motorcycle helmet, stood and began to point his finger at me and scream, "Heretic! Repent!"
It was a surreal moment. Of course we knew that something like this might happen. But you can't really adequately prepare for the reality of it.
My first, fleeting thought was, "What's going to happen next? Is he carrying something in that helmet? Is this going to be more than angry words?" But almost immediately, I found myself profoundly sorry for this young man. After he had been removed, and the hymn ended (the congregation had sung a hymn to drown out his shouting), when I asked the congregation to "pray for that man," I was nearly overwhelmed with sadness. All I could think about was that place in his heart which must be filled with such darkness, a place that was meant to be filled with loved, but because of whatever had happened in his life, whoever he has been associating with, it was filled with hate. Someone had to TEACH him to hate like that. He didn't learn it on his own. For a moment or two, I was nearly overwhelmed by my sense of sadness for him. The tears in my eyes and the crack in my voice were for this child of God who, I suspect, has experienced so much pain and unhappiness in his life."
JC, in addition, there are plenty of scholars who spend huge amounts of time in prayer who believe opposite what you do. Yes, I believe there is an ultimate Truth, but you say you have it, someone else says they have it, and then another guy says they have it...truth on this Earth is not ultimate, and we cannot claim to know we have it, that's arrogant. Again, I ask you: If homosexuality was such an abomination, such a horrific sin against God, why did Jesus never mention it? He mentioned murdering, lying, blasphemy, hurting children...never again homosexuality.
You most certainly did not answer my question. You threw a bible verse at me and told me to repent, which doesn't answer the question "Has discrimination ever been written into the constitution before, and this open the door for more to happen in the future?" Its a very real question. There are plenty of people who support gay marriage, but you oppose it and make a lot of noise about it. What's going to be next, you don't agree that Jews don't recognize Christmas so you're going to make it illegal for them to celebrate their holidays? This opens a dangerous door, and while you can fear for my soul all you want, I fear for the future of this country.
To Mike2685:
You said: "Oh please prophet, not one of you "Christians" has answered my question honestly about discrimination in the constitution"
Yes we did beloved, you just refuse to open your eyes to the truth.
It is impossible for there to be more than one truth. To say that an apple is something other than what it truly is, is just self-deception.
People can get caught up into the politics and legalities of issues, all the while hoping to justify their positions with men. But this will not work with God. He sees everything there is to see. He sees our hearts and minds. He even knows the thoughts that entertain our thoughts. There is truth and non-truth. Something is either truth, or it is a lie. We choose which to believe, we choose which to follow. One path will lead to life, the other death.
There is only one truth. Open your eyes to the one who defines truth. Open your heart to the one who justifies truth. Open your soul to the one who will judge what by truth. This is truly the path to life. For the fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Just because someone tells you your doing something wrong doesnt mean they hate you. Its really the opposite. I hope people can realize that something is not altogether right with calling someone warning you of sin a Hatemonger and then calling yourself a Christian. If you dont see the devil in that I honestly fear for your soul. If you fail to warn others of the sin they are commiting their blood is on you. REPENT THE DAY OF THE LORD IS AT HAND!!!
troyg,
You're welcome. I suggest you do just as you have said and "walk the way God has called" you.
Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord
Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds
Romans 2:4
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
Repent does not mean feel bad. Repent does not mean acknowledge. Repent means change. If one does not change (of sins, from following one's own dictates rather than God, and believing one gets to set the rules rather than God, and that one's efforts are enough, etc.) and turn to God and then have a life that give evidence of that change, then one is not saved to begin with. That's what James was talking about that even the demons believe and shudder, but we know they are not in heaven. We are saved through faith in Christ, but there must be evidence of a changed heart for it to be true faith.
I am not saying change is easy. But God says it is required. I am not saying change is instantaneous, but it must begin, and continue.
So yes, please lead the life of repentance God has called you to.
People who encourage or condone sin complain that Christians who call them on their sins are not seeking unity or are not being loving. We SHOULD seek unity, but we have to teach the word of God - not of the world. We have to speak the truth in love. It is unloving to ignore people sinning. We must tell people of what God teaches. If they teach heresy, we must teach truth, that others not be led astray.
We ARE to seek unity of the faith, but that must be the entire Gospel as taught by Christ, including 'sin no more'. We are to leave our old sinful selves behind, not justify them using scripture. Only when everyone is in agreement with what God said will we have unity of the faith. Until then, we must speak out against sin and condoning of sin, and teach our need for Christ's atonement and holiness.
Ephesians 4:11-13
11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until WE ALL REACH UNITY IN THE FAITH AND IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD AND BECOME MATURE, ATTAINING TO THE WHOLE MEASURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST.
But let us look at the purpose of unity of the faith and how we get it:
Ephesians 4:14-16
14 Then WE WILL NO LONGER BE INFANTS, TOSSED BACK AND FORTH BY THE WAVES, AND BLOWN HERE AND THERE BY EVERY WIND OF TEACHING AND BY THE CUNNING AND CRAFTINESS OF MEN IN THEIR DECEITFUL SCHEMING. 15 Instead, SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
We agree with the word of God, so we will not be tossed around by what the world says is good. Instead, we must in all things grow up into Christ. Ok, so what does THAT mean?
Ephesians 4:17-24
17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that YOU MUST NO LONGER LIVE AS THE GENTILES DO, IN THE FUTILITY OF THEIR THINKING. 18 THEY ARE DARKENED IN THEIR UNDERSTANDING AND SEPARATED FROM THE LIFE OF GOD BECAUSE OF THE IGNORANCE THAT IS IN THEM DUE TO THE HARDENING OF THEIR HEARTS. 19 HAVING LOST ALL SENSITIVITY, THEY HAVE GIVEN THEMSELVES OVER TO SENSUALITY SO AS TO INDULGE IN EVERY KIND OF IMPURITY, WITH A CONTINUAL LUST FOR MORE. 20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 YOU WERE TAUGHT, WITH REGARD TO YOUR FORMER WAY OF LIFE, TO PUT OFF YOUR OLD SELF, WHICH IS BEING CORRUPTED BY ITS DECEITFUL DESIRES; 23 TO BE MADE NEW IN THE ATTITUDE OF YOUR MINDS; 24 AND TO PUT ON THE NEW SELF, CREATED TO BE LIKE GOD IN TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS.
We must all be in agreement with the word of God, so we will be holy and righteous like God. Unity at the sake of God's word is not unity, it is foolishness.
WB-
Thank you for being truly loving to God and myself by calling me a heretic and claiming my beliefs are lies. I will at least respect your beliefs, while I walk the way God has called me.
Oh please prophet, not one of you "Christians" has answered my question honestly about discrimination in the constitution. Your hypocrisy amazes me, yet you call me the hypocrite! I am willing to give someone the right to marry if they are truly in love and it does not hurt anyone. Pedophilia hurts children, beastiality does not involve 2 consenting children. The love between 2 gay adults is just the same as the love between 2 straight adults. We cannot produce children, but we can adopt, and our children will know they are loved and grow up just the same as yours. That, we know to be fact through many studies. You are merely speculating.
troyg,
""Porneia" does not translate to homosexuality, particularly a loving relationship between to decent men or women. Need I tell you, since you are married, that "ilicit sex" does not make a long-term, committed relationship?"
Illicit sex includes the following:
sex with animals: Ex 22:19; Lev18:23, 20:15-16
sex with people of the same gender: Lev 18:22; Lev 20:13; Rom 1:26-27; 1 Cor 6:9-10
adultery: Gen 20:1-7; Deut 5:18; Heb 13:4
incest: Lev 18:6-15; 20; Deut 27:20-23; 1 Cor 5:1-13
"And if Ruth and Naomi were only friends, then why would the Hebrew word used in Ruth 1:14 to describe how Ruth felt about Naomi the same word used in Genesis 2:24 to describe how Adam felt about Eve? "dabaq"?"
Ok, is this an accident, or are you purposefully confusing an action with an emotion? Dabaq means "cling to" or "stay with". This does not indicate a feeling, simply that Ruth stayed with Naomi, her mother-in-law. Both daughters-in-law were originally going to stay with Naomi (as was the custom of the day), but after Naomi suggested they go back to their own people for the second time, Orpah went. However, even after the third suggestion that Ruth go back, she chose to return to Judah, with her dead husband's mother. This is not homosexual love. It is dedication to family.
"I'm not saying Ruth and Naomi had a sexual relationship, but they did have a loving, committed relationship to each that the Bible values. "
If you are not saying it, then you are playing with words, because that is certainly what you implied when you wrote,
"The Bible gives positive support for same-sex, committed relationships in the stories of Ruth and Naomi in the book of Ruth."
"Your arguments are by no means conclusive that God condemns loving, committed relationships of same sex couples."
It is not my arguments that matter. The word of God matters. And God is clear that homosexual desire and sex are sins.
"The Bible is NOT clear on this."
You are mistaken. To deny what God has said is to call Him a liar.
"And to believe so is to stigmatize a group of people in a cruel way, directly opposing Christ when He said that the second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself."
*I* am not stigmatizing anyone. I am simply saying the word of God says homosexual desire and sex are sins. My wife and I have both been there and done that. It does not make it any less sin.
God said to love GOD first. By trying to twist the word of God to say God would condone sin (homosexual desire and sex), you are showing a distinct LACK of love for God.
Only by sharing the truth can I truly be loving to both God and you.
Mike,
Do I know that for a fact? Um...let's see...20 years ago did we know for a fact that gay marriages would be in issue? Actually, the thought of gay marriages would have been laughed at. And look where we are today. One step leads to another. One group wants rights and gets them, another wants the same rights. Where does it end? When America comes crashing in on itself in sexual immorality.
But you still didn't address my comment...are you willing to give them the right to marry too?
troy,
If I said I loved you, how would you take that? Considering that there are a number of different definitions of "love", it would probably be wise to ask for clarification.
The word "dabaq" can mean "to follow close", or "to be joined". Same word, two different meanings. Homosexuals would take it out of context to mean being joined. Those who understand that in the context of Ruth and Naomi, and the love of a woman for her daughter-in-law, and vice-versa, would know that it means she followed her closely.
troyg,
We can agree to disagree. It does not make me wrong, it simply means you are trying to justify sin.
When Paul writes uses three different terms to indicate desire within four sentences, anyone who can not see that homosexual desire is either lying to themselves or trying mighty hard to justify sin.
Epithumia means desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust
Pathos means whatever befalls one, whether it be sad or joyous, spec. a calamity, mishap, evil, affliction; feeling which the mind suffers, an affliction of the mind, emotion, passion, passionate deed; used by the Greeks in either a good or bad sense, in the NT in a bad sense, depraved passion, vile passions.
Orexis means desire, longing, craving for, eager desire, lust, appetite; used both in a good and a bad sense, as well of natural and lawful and even of proper cravings (of appetite for food), also of corrupt and unlawful desires
Atimia means dishonour, ignominy, disgrace.
Aschemosune means unseemliness, an unseemly deed, of a woman's genitals, of one's nakedness, shame.
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25-27
For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
You can pretend that it is natural and proper to have homosexual desire and sex. *shrug* that's between you and God. But to try to claim it is not a sin when the word of God says it is takes it out of the realm of private sin and into teaching heresy.
We can agree to disagree. But this does not mean you are not heretical. Nor does it mean people will not present the truth each time you present lies trying to show homosexual sex is not a sin.
Mike keep trying to leave that life style, keep seeking and asking God for forgiveness, Seek His kingdom. despite what the antichrist troyg has said he is wrong Homesexaulity is a Sin and it is condemed by God in His word. You have a heart and a mind that can escape this wide road to destruction you are on. If, I say if. you repent and cry out to Jesus for His help and His mercy. Go the narrow road that leads to eternal life with Christ. Jesus said it would not be an easy road that we need to carry our cross to endure the temptations to resist the devil and he will flee. We all here who believe in the Creator God are praying for you, praying that you will surrender yourself to Him who saves Jesus Christ and then the healing can begin.
Gods Blessing In Christ
Tom
Prophet, do you know that for a fact, or are you just trying to fall back on your usual scare tactics that will ultimately fail when people find they hold no weight. Check with the countries and states that already allow gay marriage...I'm pretty sure no one has come forward to marry their goat or 8 year old bride.
blue,
I hope you're ready to support the polygamists and those who want to legalize incest marriages. They're next.
This measure will fail miserably. Face it, the era of radical, hateful, discriminative conservative perspectives is out and the dawn of tolerance, respect, protection, and liberal prosperity is in
Wbmoore-
As I've said before - your interpretation of the scriptures is different than my interpretation. That doesn't make mine wrong. The Bible is not clear at all that same-sex committed relationships of two loving people is wrong.
Romans 1 the words Paul uses for passions, burn, indecent acts, and indecency have been misinterpreted by many. There is a legitimate question about any of this applying to loving, same-sex relationships as we know them today. Paul's writings have been taken out of context and twisted to punish and opress every identifiable minority in the world. Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, pro-choice people, religious reformers, and the mentally ill.
Reasonable Christians can and should be able to disagree on Biblical interpretation.
"Jesus spoke out against all sexual sins condemned in the Old Testament by use of the word porneia, so that would include homosexual sex. Porneia is defined as illicit sex, as defined in Lev 17, 20 and Dt 22. It has been translated as unchastity, or fornication, or immorality."
"Porneia" does not translate to homosexuality, particularly a loving relationship between to decent men or women. Need I tell you, since you are married, that "ilicit sex" does not make a long-term, committed relationship?
And if Ruth and Naomi were only friends, then why would the Hebrew word used in Ruth 1:14 to describe how Ruth felt about Naomi the same word used in Genesis 2:24 to describe how Adam felt about Eve? "dabaq"?
I'm not saying Ruth and Naomi had a sexual relationship, but they did have a loving, committed relationship to each that the Bible values.
Your arguments are by no means conclusive that God condemns loving, committed relationships of same sex couples. The Bible is NOT clear on this. And to believe so is to stigmatize a group of people in a cruel way, directly opposing Christ when He said that the second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself.
troyg shows his ignorance when he said ""The Bible in the original language never condems same-sex, romantic love as sin."
Um...there are no original manuscripts in existence. They're all extant.
troyg,
"The Bible repeatedly demonstrates God's love, care, and acceptance of all outcast, rejected, misunderstood, and alienated people."
I agree, but they are told to repent and sin no more. I suggest you do the same.
John 8:11 ... "Go now and leave your life of sin."
"Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way, and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it is understood today."
Only three verses mention 'born again', two of them in the same passage, speaking of the need everyone has to be born again. One speaks in past tense, if you believe.
So do we say it is not important to be "born again" because there are only two that say we need to be born again? Of course not! If God says something once, then it is important; if God repeats Himself, then its VERY important.
"I invite all to a more prayerful, thoughtful, and caring understanding of God's diverse humanity"
I understand humanity; we are sinners.
I invite you to believe and obey God.
Troyg,
I suggest you read my posts from 6:41 and 6:43. They are applicable to you.
"The Bible nowhere says gay and lesbians can or should change their sexual orientation."
You're free to remain in sin, or you can change. But it is clear that homosexual sex is wrong.
"The six Bible passages used against LGBT people are often incorrectly translated and used out of context."
No, actually. You are wrong. Romans 1 says even the desire of a man for a man or a woman for a woman is sin. The act of sex between two people of the same gender is also sin.
In fact, in Romans 1, God called both the desire and the action of sex with people of the same gender sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, indecent, and perversion, and something that ought not to be done.
"The Bible in the original language never condems same-sex, romantic love as sin."
The sisterly love of a daughter-in-law for her mother-in-law is shown to be a good thing. The brotherly love of a warrior for his best friend is shown to be a good thing.
"The Bible gives positive support for same-sex, committed relationships in the stories of Ruth and Naomi in the book of Ruth, and David and Jonathan in 1 Sam 18-20 and 2 Sam 1."
No actually, this is a reinterpretation of truth. The first is the love of daughter-in-law for her mother-in-law after they both just lost their husbands. The second is the brotherly love of two close friends. How sad that you want to invent stories rather than accept the truth.
"Jesus never mentioned homosexuality"
Jesus spoke out against all sexual sins condemned in the Old Testament by use of the word porneia, so that would include homosexual sex. Porneia is defined as illicit sex, as defined in Lev 17, 20 and Dt 22. It has been translated as unchastity, or fornication, or immorality.
Mt 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of UNCHASTITY, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Mt 15:19-20 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, FORNICATIONS, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.
Mt 19:9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for IMMORALITY, and marries another woman commits adultery.
Mk 7:21-22 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, FORNICATIONS, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
Just for the record:
Sexual Orientation is not mentioned in the Bible.
The original Bible languages of Hebrew and Greek have no words for "homosexual" , "sex", or "romantic love".
The Bible nowhere says gay and lesbians can or should change their sexual orientation.
The six Bible passages used against LGBT people are often incorrectly translated and used out of context.
The Bible in the original language never condems same-sex, romantic love as sin.
The Bible gives positive support for same-sex, committed relationships in the stories of Ruth and Naomi in the book of Ruth, and David and Jonathan in 1 Sam 18-20 and 2 Sam 1.
Jesus never mentioned homosexuality
The Bible repeatedly demonstrates God's love, care, and acceptance of all outcast, rejected, misunderstood, and alienated people.
Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way, and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it is understood today.
I invite all to a more prayerful, thoughtful, and caring understanding of God's diverse humanity.
Why would I feel threatened by your opinion? How will you change me? You have no control over my destiny so why should I fear you or your view?
If the Bible is in disagreement with the pseudo-science of psychology, then its not the Bible that is wrong.
Mike2685,
What you are missing is that the APA changes with social pressure. At one time, the APA considered homosexuality a disorder, until someone led the charge to have homosexuality removed from the DSM. He was praised and raved over by the GLBT culture. But now this same man, convinced by people who had changed their orientation that it was possible, has now done a study that shows changing one's orientation is in fact possible for highly motivated individuals. Now, of course, he is denigrated and ignored by the same community.
Not touchy...I just know the truth. That's all.
"Our forefathers would also "puke" to think that any one religion holds this much power over another."
Is that why they quoted the Bible so much? Or prayed to the God of judeo-christian belief? Or in our declaration of independence said that our rights came from God (Christianity)? Or why many of them spoke of keeping the Bible as part of the public education curriculum?
I see that they were "unbiased" about their belief. True, our country was built upon the freedom to practice whatever religion you wish. But they themselves often refered to God and His Scriptures.
...so touchy! Could you perhaps be feeling threatened by my point of view?
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
Well, the APA is a secular group. They, as well as you, have no idea of God's changing power. I'm sure the APA would have looked at my wife 15 years ago and agreed with what her doctors said...She's chronic depressive with suicidal tendencies. The only help we can offer is medicate her to keep it somewhat in check.
Hmmm...I'm glad God knows better. I'm glad God still heals and delivers and changes peoples hearts and "chemical embalance." If I had listened to the doctors she'd still be in and out of mental wards and hospitals. But I chose to listen to God, who healed her instantaneously. So please keep your ignorant, carnal, worthless "learning" to yourself. The wisdom of man is just foolishness before God. How often he proves that.
For all of you who equate being gay with increased likelihood of pedophilia, please read this article. I'd love to hear what you have to say.
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/HTML/facts_molestation.html
Notice the APA and their other medical organizations see alcoholism and drug use to be chemical dependencies and being a sex addict is something which can also be controlled through counseling, yet they have come out with very definite statement that sexual orientation is something which cannot be changed, and it should not be attempted. Exodus does it their own way because they are so hell bent on doing something they know has been condemned by true psychologists. I have tried, many times, to not be gay. Would God say oh, sorry, you're just not trying hard enough? Of course not. God does not contradict himself, but perhaps the writers of the Bible were writing in their cultural context, as has been presented many times on this board as an argument, yet you are sure that you have Biblical truth. Guess what...Jews believe they have ultimate truth, as do Muslims, and your beliefs cannot trump theirs. Our forefathers would also "puke" to think that any one religion holds this much power over another. You care nothing for equality. You want your beliefs pushed down the throats of every other person and you expect them not to question a book written 2,000 years ago. There are plenty of us who do question it, especially when it clashes with medical studies showing gays cannot change, that gays are healthy in relationships, and that gays can raise healthy children together.
"Please do not claim God does not speak out against homosexual sex. He has, in both the Old and New Testaments. To claim He has not is to call God a liar, not me."
Jesus told a parable about a man in hell who asked that he be allowed to go back and warn his brothers. Jesus was very clear. They won't believe you even if someone was raised from the dead. The same is true with many in this on-going conversations. The Bible is clear. Why should God tell anyone anything more on the subject. It's not like the unchanging God is going to change His mind!
You either believe what the Bible clearly says or you don't.
"Tom, you pretend to know of a struggle you could not fathom. Anyone who has been "set free" from being gay is either fooling themselves or wasn't entirely gay to begin with. There is no choice in the matter. "
I've heard the same arguements from drug, sex, alchohol (and a few other kind of) addicts. Those who are addicted see 'no choice' so it's OK to stay that way. "This is who I am so you should just accept it." When we don't they throw the 'bigot' and 'hate' cards. It's just variation on a theme.
As to your question. Our founding fathers and even many today do not view homosexuals as a group to be protected. Homosexuality is a behavior...not an institution. For example, murder would not be protected under freedom of religion for Muslims in the USA. With that said...I believe in accomodations for behavioral disorders as that can clearly be tied to medical issues of the brain and is effected by medication. There is no medical evidence (outside of one 'study' which did not follow the required scientific protocols) that shows homosexuality is a behavioral disorder and there is no medication that helps people stop being gay.
In short, homosexuals do not qualify under the Constitution for protections. That doesn't mean I think any less of you or any of my friends that are gay. It's just a legal fact. Our founding fathers would puke if they knew we were having homosexual rights as an issue. It was completely socially unacceptable to them.
The people who teach things that go against the word of God have a place reserved for them that they will not like. It would have been better for them to not have learned the way to righteousness to begin with.
1 Peter 2:17-22
17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity - for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
The same is true for other people who claim to have come to Christ's righteousness and are once again overcome by the corruption of the world.
Please do not claim God does not speak out against homosexual sex. He has, in both the Old and New Testaments. To claim He has not is to call God a liar, not me.
Peter said that God has given us everything we need for life and godliness to escape the corruption of evil desires.
2 Peter 1:3-5
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
But he also said we need to add to our faith to ensure we do not fall.
One of the things we need to add to our faith is self-control and another is godliness.
2 Peter 1:5-11
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
But you can not claim to be adding self-control or godliness to your faith if you go against what the Bible teaches. In fact, if you listen to people who are saying you do not have to believe the word of God and do it, and so fail to add these things, you are being seduced.
1 Peter 2:1-2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
Mike2685,
Tom, you pretend to know of a struggle you could not fathom. Anyone who has been "set free" from being gay is either fooling themselves or wasn't entirely gay to begin with.
So Mike, God can create the universe, part the Red Sea, raise the dead and heal blind eyes but He can't change a gay person?
Man, there ain't a single Christian on here that doesn't empathize with you, BUT and this is where it gets serious, whether it be adultery, thievery, lust, pornography, fornication, murder, blasphemy, or any other sin, if God says it's sin, it's sin.
He didn't call it sin to condemn you, but because He loves you and wants to set you/us free from it. If a person has been set free and you haven't, why do you insist they weren't in sin? You make assumptions about other people's deep convictions, but your own we're all supposed to accept just out-right.
God loves you and wants to set you free, but He isn't going to force you.
MikeNYC,
You wrote: "Gay marriage helps with morals."
This is not true if you believe the Bible to be the word of God. God said to not have same-gender sex. To do so is to go against what God said. Therefore, to do so is immoral.
Prophet, speak for yourself, but I don't believe Satan can corrupt love. Lust, maybe, but I have been there (I think many adults have) and know the difference. The love I have for my partner is beautiful and committed. No evil comes of it.
"But the modified version, which will be published in the voter information guides this fall, describes the marriage initiative as amending the state Constitution to "eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry."
Thank goodness. The summary now factually reflects what the proposition is. Same Sex couples now have the right to marry in California, and this proposition will eliminate that right. Not one gay marriage has ever hurt one straight marriage. To the contrary, gay marriage supports and strengthens the instution of marriage in California and nationally. Marriage is a bedrock instution of our society, and gay people want to support it. The enormous divorce rate in this country is the fault of heterosexuals, it has nothing to do with gays.
The love between gay people is a twisted perverted love. It's not the love that God had originally created for spouses (specifically man and woman). Satan's specialty is to take the things of God and turn them in to evil, and yet wrap it with beautiful paper and a gorgeous bow so that eveyone will say "Oh! It must be from God!"
Question for those who have a problem with gay folks: do you have the same feelings about gay people who don't have sex?
So much of the discussion here revolves around sex. If two people of the same gender have feelings of love toward each other--the same feelings that the majority of us have for the opposite gender--and they live a committed, loving, happy life together without sex then in those cases what could you possibly base an objection on? Or is it just the sex part? I'd really like to know.
Tom, you pretend to know of a struggle you could not fathom. Anyone who has been "set free" from being gay is either fooling themselves or wasn't entirely gay to begin with. There is no choice in the matter. You simply dismiss the APA and their many partners who all agree that sexual orientation cannot be changed, and it is not due to political pressure, as so many of you assert. Tpique, those are statistics, which do not represent the entire community. If we wanted to look at those same statistics for straights, I would imagine the answers would shock you. I know many committed gay and straight couples, and I know many gay and straight couples who have cheated on one another or have had many, many sex partners. Still, straight marriage is allowed to continue. Do not deny me what the US government says is a fundamental right just because you think statistically I will not stay committed. I have heard before that evangelicals have the highest rate of divorce before. Perhaps we should not allow them to marry anymore?
JC, that did not answer my question.
Mike Jesus quoted and use the, what is now considered the Old testament many many times and He never contradicted what it said. He upheld it. He said mike that He would set you free from the sins that entangle you the addictions that ensnare you. Seek him mike seek His forgiveness, repent and be washed by the blood of the lamb. He is waiting for you. He died to set you free!
Try looking at the Narth web site or the study reviewed there. " Longitudinal study of reliiously mediated change in sexual orientation" Jones and Yarhouse. Or read again what has been revealed here in these post about changed lives, You'll dismiss it like most of you who are caught in this life style but the evidence is there if your willing to accept it. To open your eyes to the truth, to take the veil off. What we have been saying here in these post is nothing new and it comes out of Gods word if you have objections take it up with Him, Cry out to Him Mike repent accept His Son as Savior. He is waiting for you to surrender your self to Him and to Him only. He will set you free.
Gods Blessing
in Christ
Tom
To Mike2685:
To answer your question: "To all the Christians, let me ask you this: Is there any other part of the Constitution in which a group is discriminated against by the new amendment?"
Beloved, This is not about the California, U.S., or any other constitutional laws made by man. This is about keeping God's law, God's morality standards, God's will. One can claim to be a Christian all day long, but until they abide in Him, and He with them, they are not. A Christian is told to abide in His word, to be obedient to His word, to abstain from things from which God has forbidden, for our own safety.
Jesus answered and said to him, " If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. (John 14:23)
Mike2685,
GET YOUR INFO RIGHT FRIEND!:
There are several areas where the average homosexual differs from the average, normal, "everyday†heterosexual. Research has shown that men and women living homosexually are at substantially higher risk for some forms of emotional problems, including suicidality, major depression and anxiety disorder, conduct disorder and nicotine dependence.17 For instance, one twin-study found that men with same-sex partners are 6.5 times as likely as their co-twins to attempt suicide.18 Another study found that a substantial percentage of gay males and lesbians report some participation in illegal drug use.19
Studies indicate that the average male homosexual has hundreds of sex partners in his lifetime. The median number of partners for homosexuals is four times higher than for heterosexuals.1 A study on the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals, published in the Journal of Sex Research, found that only 2.7 percent claimed to have had sex with one partner only.2 Research has also found that few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners.â€Â3
The following. for example, was published in Lambada:4
* 24 percent of gay men had more than 100 partners.
* 43 percent of gay men had more than 500 partners.
* 28 percent of gay men had more than 1,000 partners.
Studies have indicated that the body’s natural immune system is broken down by repeated exposure to semen during anal intercourse. Also, the tearing and rupturing which can take place during such intercourse exposes the individual to infection by manifold serious and dangerous diseases. Of these, AIDS is the most well-known and the most dangerous.15 AIDS remains within the top 10 leading causes of death among those aged 20 to 55. As of December, 2001, 45 percent of all AIDS cases involved men who were exposed to the disease through having sex with other men while 4 percent of the cases were among men who had heterosexual contact.16
The people who wanted it easier to get divorces claimed it was for the good of the family, to protect from abuse. Now we have broken families everywhere. The costs are outragiously high (abuse still continues, children have no dad, all parties involved often suffer from depression for at least some period which in turns adversely affect society, increased poverty for single parent families, lowered access to decent educational opportunities, increases in hospital visits due to a lowered economic status not providing access to insurance, increases in drug abuse, etc). It has not proven to be a good thing.
People who suggest cohabitation is a good idea ignore the studies that those who cohabitate have a significantly increased risk for more emotionally painful breakups and divorce.
People who suggest that sex outside of marriage ignore the studies that show increased risks of disease and damage to factors that go into making good relationships, such as self-esteem, trust in self and others, the ability to make and keep committments, etc.
People who suggest any of these things are good ignore the fact that normalizing them have caused others to increase the likelihood of considering these things good and proper and desirable in many cases, or at least acceptable. This in turns increases the likelihood of adversely affecting others by influencing them to do these same things.
The same will occur with homosexual sex and homosexual unions, as they are normalized into our society.
Gay marriage helps with morals. People who are gay and seeking to get married value the morals of love and family, and want to help create a stable environment in their home life which in turn creates a more stable society. I think your fears are unfounded. Gay marriage hurts no one. Pedophilia hurts every child. That is very clear, and countless studies have agreed with it. You can pretend NAMBLA is a valid source of information, but a 1995 FBI study found the roles were only 1,100, making NAMBLA the largest group advocating for the legalization of pedophilia in the IPCE: International Pedophile and Child Emancipation. With roles that low, they don't even have enough support to get a ballot. Its simply not going to happen.
As society moves to normalize (make easier and acceptable to society) and legalize what God considers sin, more and more things that many consider wrong or harmful are being normalized and legalized.
It will not be 20 years after homosexual MARRIAGE is legalized nationwide (and while I am against it, I recognize it will eventually occur) before pedophilia is legalized.
Its already illegal to have separate gender public restrooms in Colorado. Although I seriously doubt this was the intention, this makes it much easier for pedophiles to stalk/choose their victims.
As society moves forward in its headlong rush to not make people feel bad for doing bad things or being certain ways (its innate, or its an illness, or its genetic - pick the excuse and justification), society begins to rush headlong into decadence and crumbles much like other societies in the past. As society makes it easier to not be self-sacrificing and self-controlled, society moves toward implosion.
It used to be the role of government to ease and protect commerce and the lives of its inhabitants. Now it is the role of government to encourage individual desires and selfishness and feeling good.
Just as normalizing sex outside of marriage, cohabitation, abortion, and divorce have all had detrimental effects on developed nations (note that many developed nations have reached a point in their birth-death rates, where there will be an insufficient number of adults to support a growing population of aging people - or are close to reaching this point without immigration), so will homosexual marriage.
Our constitution and laws are meant to codify morals in the sense that they protect us from harmful actions of others and government. As we have moved to make things like sex before marriage, cohabitation, divorce, and now homosexual sex, acceptable, we have degraded the morals of our society, our children, and the future. What is important is no longer what is right, but what feels good. Our country and the world will suffer for it.
My wife was a lesbian, and I was homosexual. God can release us from these sins.
Let's be clear about this: Proposition 8 has NEVER been about defining marriage in heterosexual terms. Straight couples have always had the right to get married, Straight couples have never been affected by Gay couples, and Straight married couples will not be affected in any way by either the passage or rejection of Proposition 8. What this amendment is about is something utterly new: DENYING a legally-granted privilage to an entire segment of the population. The voters of California need to be aware of what they are voting on here, and I think the new wording of Proposition 8 is far more accurate. The voters of California need to be aware that passage of Proposition 8 will have NO effect on heterosexual couples, but it will in fact rip apart tens of thousands of legally married Gay couples. The voters need to be aware of this.
tpique, the bible does talk about not abusing your body, so in essence it does talk about LSD. Besides that, everyone knows the harmful effects of LSD on the body. Just by being gay, your are not harming your body or mind. If you are promiscuous and unsafe, sure, but that has nothing to do with being gay, as I'm sure we all know plenty of straights who have had their fair share of STDs.
Tom, show me the data that says thousands upon thousands have successfully left, because I can guarantee you won't find it. In a long term study, Exodus has astronomically high failure rates. Sure, they can convince someone they can "pray the gay away" as I myself once tried that road. After a while, you realize you are not following what is in your heart or listening to God, but rather, you are doing what all the Christians are telling you is the right thing to do, you come to your senses. Satan cannot corrupt love. Adopting children is not selfish or unloving. Marrying someone to show your commitment and love for them is not perverted. Wake up people, Jesus calls us to live as Christians. Jesus looked beyond the Bible many times, can't we as his followers see that people who are gay are not wicked sex fiends? I know many, many gay couples whose love for each other is beautiful and sacred, but will never be recognized because Christians feel the need to create a theocracy.
Not one person on here has answered my question yet, so I'm going to repost it:
To all the Christians, let me ask you this: Is there any other part of the Constitution in which a group is discriminated against by the new amendment? We are setting a precedence here that is quite scary. What will be next, Jews cannot celebrate because their holidays are immoral and against the teachings of Jesus since they do not follow him? Muslims will no longer be allowed to take time out during the day to pray because it is too disturbing and against the Christian religion. What really scares me isn't that I wouldn't be allowed to marry, because I will be able to get those rights, live next to you, work next to you, and send my children to your school regardless of what this court ruling is. What scares me is the fact that this could be the first time we write into the constitution a law aimed at shutting down an entire group of people because another group says they disagree with it. In the past, amendments have shown progress (the end of slavery, the right of women to vote) but this is undoing something that is already allowed in California, Massachusetts, and many other countries around the world, and the sky has not fallen there. Society continues there, morals are still in place, and no members of NAMBLA have come forward asking to marry children or their goats. Your fears are unfounded, and we know this to be true. Are my fears of writing discrimination into the constitution on a continuing basis unfounded? I'm not so sure.
The Bible doesn't call using LSD a sin either, does that make it OK???
MikeNYC
In fact, Jesus said to call sinners on their behavior and forgive them if they change:
Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Paul said the same thing regarding forgiveness for people who have apparently changed:
2 Corinthians 2:5-11
5 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extentâ€â€not to put it too severely. 6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9 The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10 If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgivenâ€â€if there was anything to forgiveâ€â€I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
Calling sin as sin, repentance and forgiveness are key.
It's time to sue the State of California for its abusive power of influencing the marriage amendment voting process!
Let the wheels of justice roll!
Let the people of California have the power to vote without the clutter of bias and misinterpretations caused by the attorney general of California.
Your state tax dollars at work--influencing the elections results through bias!
Stop the madness!
Wow, some people on this blog are downright horrifying. I swore once before I wouldn't get sucked into the twisted Christians who apparently are regulars at the sp-called "Christian" Post, and now I remember why.
MikeNYC, don't waste your energy here. You are right, these extremists are NOT true Christians the way my entire family and parish have always been for me and my community. If Jesus were with us today I think he would hang his head in shame at what people are saying and doing in his name. To make it all worse, nothing anyone says will ever sink in.
Scary that we have this in our own country.
MikeNYC,
Incidentally, the word for immorality used by Paul in 1 Cor 5 is the same word used by Jesus when he gave the only reason to divorce: porneia. This word emcompasses all sexual sin mentioned in the old testament, including homosexual sex. So when Jesus spoke agains porneia, he also spoke against homosexual sex.
MikeNYC,
Let's look at the context of 1 Corinthians 5 to see what Paul was referring to when he said to judge those within the church.
==
1 Corinthians 5
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeastâ€â€as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral peopleâ۠10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
==
So yes, we are to judge those within the church as to whether they are doing right or wrong and if wrong, remove the from the church.
Wow MikeNY--you obviously have a Bible translated for the gay community! The Greek in Romans 1 is the word for sodomy which the dictionary clearly defines as homosexuality.
It's a very old game of Satan's this word twisting game. In fact, the religious leaders tried it with Jesus...didn't work. The greek manuscripts from which ALL our current translations are suppose to be based all say the same thing.
Romans also says 'against nature'. What is this? Nature is based on the parts you are born with. There are very clear differences between the male and female brain spec. how the two sides communicate with each other. Nature teaches that men are men and women are women and they have a physical relationship to each other that is designed for reproduction.
Exactly which translation of the Bible are you using and who published it?
Please do remember this: The Scriptures tell us that Satan hates God. He desires to steal, kill, and destroy everyone in this world, because they are created in the image of God. He is the father of all lies. Lies are his natural language. He also sometimes appears as an angel of light. What appears good is not always good. Even love can be distorted by him. Now, ask yourself, “Am I created in the image of God? Is this the best that God has for me, or could Satan possibly have lied and stolen from me, and destined me for destruction? Have I decided to see what goes contrary to God’s obvious nature and scripture, as good?†If so, you are risking everything for the temporary. I am risking nothing. One day, we will find out who is correct. I have nothing to fear because I am standing of the truth and historical reliability of the scriptures. I would like to say that I think everyone goes to heaven, but then what about Hitler? Then where does the line get drawn between good enough and not? 5 sins? 25? 432? One murder minus 10 feeding the poor? No sin is acceptable before our Holy God. When asked what was the greatest commandment, Jesus (you know the one that like changed history and everything) said to “Love the Lord you God with all you heart, with all you soul, and with all you mind? And the second is like it. Love you neighbor as yourself.†And if my words cause you anger, I would suggest that you are probably on the side of the one that hates God. You cannot say God is your father and hate His word, His Holiness, and His people. Even if I am wrong, I have nothing to lose. I hope you have more to stand on than blog arguments and your own feelings. Till the end…
To all those living a gay lifestyle: I am not a bigot, a hate monger, a religious nut, or a hypocrite, and neither are most true Christians. I will never call you names, and I would appreciate the same consideration, but if it makes you feel better about yourself, I can handle it. I don’t hate you. I feel for you. I love you as any other human being. I care about you. I want the best for you, in this life, and the next. Should you live next to me, I would be the best neighbor you ever had. I would never treat you with disrespect. Should you be my coworker, I will work along side you as any other co-worker. Should you demand that I agree and accept your lifestyle, which goes against nature, conscience, and scriptures, I will say no, regardless of what laws are passed.
Okay, I repent. I have changed my mind. After taking a break and coming back to this argument, I have noticed something. None of us are getting anywhere. Words get twisted, angry words spoken, points ignored, and lies continue to build upon lies. I have no doubt that I am not going to change any of the minds, of those that believe homosexuality is okay, through arguing on blogs. And neither will those that support the gay lifestyle convince me to throw out the very clear standards of the Bible, the ones that have stood the test of time for 2000+ years. The message of the Bible will remain long after all of us are all gone, no matter how hard you try get rid of it.
I am repenting of blogging these kinds of arguments. Not that I believe any less than I did. In fact, after these discussions, I am more convinced than ever that homosexuals are being held captive by lies. But that this is not productive forum at all.
mikeey--I feel sory for you so i will explain something to you a simple as I can make. God has only sanction marriage to be between a man and a women. period. Sex outside of marriage is sinfull and harmful to any relationship with Him (it is called sin). Same sex marriage would be between a man and man or a women and a women. This is outside of what God has sanction is His word. Thus any sex actual or just imagined is a Sin and can greatly impact where you will spend forever. That is what Gods word says. you sir fit the profile of 1st Corinthians 1:18-21 and 2nd Corinthians 3:3-4 to a T. If you wish to become a Believer in Christ you must repent of your sins, ask for forgiveness believe onto the Christ as Lord and seek His kingdom and His righteousness.
Your statement that all psychological and psychiatric organization condem the ability to escape from the gay lifestyle is another lie you have expoused on this site. No to mention the evidence of thousands upon thousands that have left succesfully. We as Christian are to judge by their fruit those who would call themselves Believers. Where is yours? In twisting scripture and defending something God has called a abomination you are at least suspect. Mike seek Him who saves.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Mike, mike, mike -----
There are atheist that would put your theology to shame. Our churches 2nd grade Sunday School class would put you to shame. But I honestly think you don't have a clue about the Bible, you just want to live the lifestyle you want to live.
If you're claiming to be a Christian, then we have every right to hold you accountable to obedience of scripture.
Tom is right, you know it, wb is right, we're all trying to warn you that there's a pending judgment that may put you in eternal flames. All we can do is tell you the message.
Tom
Sadly, you have been misled by some. The Bible never condemns or even mentions same sex marriage. The only things it calls an abomination (very different than a sin) are various specific sex acts in relation to religious cleanliness. To pretend those passages as about anything else is disingenuous and close to blasphemy. All of the psychological and psychiatric organization have said very clearly that so called "reparative" therapy to try changing homosexuals doesn't work and may be harmful. Yet you post support for something that harms others. Why? Obvious you don't care about those people or you wouldn't want them to do something that would harm them any more than you would encourage them to smoke. Not a very Christian attitude. Tom, I can only pray that you return to Christ one day and that He show you the error of your harmful attitudes toward others. Christ taught us to love one another, not judge one another. May your turn from your wickedness and live.
wbmoore
The Bible tells all to be a judge for themselves of right and wrong. The it is a gross misinterpretation to say that the Bible gives a green light to judging others for it does not. REAL Christians try to live by this. Jesus spoke very strongly about divorce yet it is legal in all 50 states. It is up to the individual to decided for himself (interestingly the highest rate of divorce is among fundamentalist Christians)and not judge the actions of others. I would advice anyone who actually is a Christian to avoid judging others whether the issue is homosexuality, divorce or any infraction against Levitical laws.
wbmoore
Nope that's not what the Bible is saying in those passages. Lying about the Bible is blasphemy and I'd advise you not to continue to do so as you are harming yourself.
According to the Bible, when homosexuals have sex together, they are harming themselves and each other.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20 (NASB)
Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
The word for immorality is transliterated porneia. This is the same word Christ used.
It has been translated as fornication, unchastity and immorality, but includes all illicit sex.
Mt 5:32
but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Mt 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
Mt 19:9
And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.
Mk 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
It refers to illicit sex - that which is prohibits in the Old Testament.
Definition:
1. illicit sexual intercourse
1a. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
1b. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 (also Lev 20; Dt 22)
1c. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,
2. metaph. the worship of idols
2.a of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
It is specifically NOT adultery, which is transliterated moicao.
Additionally, because homosexual sex is a sin, you are causing your brother to stumble when you participate in it.
1 Cor 10:31-32
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God
So, according to the Bible, when a homosexual has sex with another homosexual, he is hurting himself and his partner. If you love someone, you will not cause someone to sin.
Someone, I believe MikeNY, mentioned not judging. Lets look at what the Bible says concerning that.
We have to take the scripture in context and look at all of it. Jesus did not say to not judge, he said to not be a hypocrite. If you judge, you will be judged by the same standard. We are to be merciful, and not consider others less or more than ourselves, but we are to judge between right and wrong.
Matthew 7:1-5 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Luke 6:36-38 “Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
Jesus Himself said we are to judge what is right or wrong.
Luke 12:57 Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?
In fact, Jesus said to call sinners on their behavior:
Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Paul said to not be a hypocrite:
Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
But we are to discern what is right and wrong and avoid wrong.
Romans 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
So Christians should judge their own actions first and deal with sin in their own lives. But we are to judge the sins of those inside the church. Even so, this does not mean we are to judge someone as being better or worse than ourselves. If someone outside the church does bad things I still have the responsibility to judge whether that thing is good or bad. Whether someone does something good or bad does not necessarily indicate a person is good or bad. Judging something to be a sin is a good thing. Judging someone is not. There is a distinct difference that people who are doing things that others call wrong do not make.
I have watched with more then a bit of embassament about the comments of mikeny and somewhat from kama, mostly mikeny. It seems that even though Biblical evidence for Gods condemnation of homesexaulity is quite extensive, those who are for giving gays special rights (based on their own choice) never ever can qoute scripture without twisting it. Mike never did use any by the by. Instead they play the hate card or call followers of the way (Christians) names etc etc. Thye provide no proof or evidence of their assertions. There have been several studies in the last years that have stated that those caught in the gay lifestlye can change and thousands, thousands have left and done so with success. (exdous international, Love won out and other minisries) So instead of the gay community celebrating the victory for these people they rack them over the coals calling them all kinds of names and slander. Hmmmmm Me thinks that for you who are caught in that trap don't wish others to leave because misery loves company so you spread your lies and half truths trying to convince even the elect if it were possible. Shame on you I agree with rollin, you need to seek God with all you have, leave it at the Cross and He who rules will reveal His truth to you. You need to repent and follow Jesus. We will be praying for you. Gods Bleessing In Christ Tom
Mike
Don't forget "Thou shalt not lie."
I hope you haven't done that.
That's it Mike - we found common ground. We'll take on Iran! No gay stuff though. Muslim and Christian actually have common ground there. Except they kill the gays and we try to convince them of God's love.
I love you Mike - just the Christian kind of love and not all that mushy stuff. :)
Provide Bible education for the ignorant (like Mike) so they can truly know what God has to say about homosexuality:
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
And since you like those, you'll love this one!
Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Hope you keep all those Levitical laws or you are a hypocrite. I especially like Deuteronomy;
Deuteronomy 22:5 ¶The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Boy I hope your wife doesn't wear pants or you will be obligated to stone her in the front yard. LOL
ROLLN for President! Com'on now, it's not too late!
My motto would be "I lie it like it is; and so does my wife" LOL
Any takers out there??
9/11?? What are you talking about?
Bush for a 3rd term!!!
Amend the US Constitution
Good idea! Bush was the president during 9/11, maybe he can lead the country into total oblivian...
You can be my ambassador to Iran! You know, promote gay pride out that way and stuff! :)
I thought you wanted to be president of Iran. Isn't that the kind of theocracy you want to live in. You'll wife will enjoy that!!!
ROLLN for President! Com'on now, it's not too late!
My motto would be "I say it like it is; and it is as I say it" LOL
Any takers out there??
mike-
You can be my ambassador to Iran! You know, promote gay pride out that way and stuff! :)
9/11?? What are you talking about?
Bush for a 3rd term!!!
Amend the US Constitution
Gee, maybe I should run for office or something. Rolln for Congress - hey, it has a ring to it.
Lord help those male pages if you do.
LOL! I don't feed them, they follige around on their own!
Yes! Prop 8
Amend the US constitution to put an end to fundamentalism once and for all. Don't let 9/11 happen again.
Vote "NO" on proposition 8 in California!! This would put an end to so-called "Christian" hypocrisy.
"Just don't go to McDonalds. All Christians are boycotting this giant to protests their support of perversion. By, by to the Big Mac."
How on earth do you feed you children now?
End gay adoption and put children in with families that would provide a Godly example.
Provide funds for ex-gay ministries like Exodus to assist those that want to free themselves from sexual deviancy using true love and caring methods.
Provide Bible education for the ignorant (like Mike) so they can truly know what God has to say about homosexuality:
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
Gee, maybe I should run for office or something. Rolln for Congress - hey, it has a ring to it.
Amend the US constitution to put an end to gay marriage once and for all.
Vote "YES" on proposition 8 in California!! This would put an end to so-called gay marriage.
Mike-
Just don't go to McDonalds. All Christians are boycotting this giant to protests their support of perversion. By, by to the Big Mac.
AHHHHH! You caught me! LOL
Probably the first true thing you've uttered today......
"The difference between a Christian and the he