Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

World|Wed, Jul. 30 2008 08:57 AM EDT

Archbishop Appeals to Divided Anglicans to Show Generosity

By Maria Mackay|Christian Today Reporter

The Archbishop of Canterbury appealed to hundreds of bishops to demonstrate mutual generosity as the row over sexual ethics continues to embroil the Anglican Communion.

  • Anglican
    (Photo: Anglican Communion News Service)
    The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, gives the second Presidential Address of the Lambeth Conference on Tuesday, July 29, 2008.

In his second presidential address at the once-a-decade Lambeth Conference on Tuesday, Dr. Rowan Williams said that warring factions in the worldwide Communion were “threatening death to each other, not life.”

He said that some in the Communion regarded the independent actions of some provinces as “confused or reckless innovation” that were a “body-blow to the integrity of mission and a matter of literal physical risk to Christians.”

“The reaction to this is in turn felt as an annihilating judgment on a whole local church, undermining its legitimacy and pouring scorn on its witness,” the Archbishop said.

He acknowledged that demonstrating generosity would be costly for traditionalists and liberals, who remain at odds over a number of issues including the ordination of homosexual clergy, the blessing of same-sex unions and cross-border interventions.

“If both were able to hear and to respond generously, perhaps we could have something more like a conversation of equals – even something more like a Church,” said Williams.

He challenged bishops to take up the recommendations of the 2007 Dar-es-Salaam meeting of primates, which asked different factions within the Communion to take simultaneous steps towards each other.

“To the innovator, can we say, ‘Don’t isolate yourself; don’t create facts on the ground that make the invitation to debate ring a bit hollow?’ Can we say to the traditionalist, ‘Don’t invest everything in a church of pure and like-minded souls; try to understand the pastoral and human and theological issues that are urgent for those you are opposing, even if you think them deeply wrong?’” he asked.

Williams went on to reaffirm his support for the Anglican Covenant and the formation of an international body responsible for issuing guidance on what constitutes “a grave and lasting divisive course of action by a local church.”

“We need to speak life to each other, and that means change,” he said, adding later, “I find it hard at present to see another way forward that would avoid further disintegration.”

Around 650 bishops are gathered in Canterbury for the Lambeth Conference, which runs until Sunday. Around a quarter of the bishops in the Anglican Communion chose to stay away from the conference in protest of the presence of pro-gay bishops, including some of those involved in the consecration of the openly gay Bishop of New Hampshire, Gene Robinson.

Williams appealed to the bishops to remember their shared Anglican identity rooted in Jesus Christ as the “one unique center” and acknowledge “that the only responsible and Christian way of going on engaging with those who aren’t here is by speaking from that center in Jesus Christ where we all see our lives held and focused.”

He told the bishops: “I think we perhaps can, if and only if we are captured by the vision of the true Center, the heart of God out of which flows the impulse of an eternal generosity which creates and heals and promises.

“It is this generosity which sustains our mission and service in Our Lord’s name. And it is this we are called to show to each other.”

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  • Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Another thing I was wondering: Does the Bible explain how from 2 people with the same genetics, we evolved into so many different races?

  • Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The early Hebrew authors certainly did write in an allegorical style. It was the typical way of conveying a message.

    Mike has a good point. If humanity began with only Adam and Eve, then how do you answer the question of who their sons procreated with?

    I'd really like to hear some responses to that.

  • Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    matthew, I did not bring up Adam and Eve, as believer said.

    Believer, so what would you say if science was able to prove evolution or that the earth was around for millions of years before it would have been possible for any life to exist on it? Also, if Adam and Eve truly started creation, does that mean we all started out from incest (at some point, you'd have to sleep with either your mother or your sister, correct?)

  • Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:24 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    That was Mike's quote. Perhaps he didn't bring up the subject then, if that's the case, I'll admit I'm wrong on that point then.

    However, I believe Adam and Eve were two real people, not an 'allegory' as the Romish church espouses (simply because Science 'says so').

  • Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    matthew, I was the one who brought up Adam and Eve in a response to mike2685. I said that Adam and Eve bought the lie and bit the fruit. That's where the creation issue was brought in to this discussion. But I do agree with your point that avoiding the Scriptures is used by many to rationalize their sin or sinful lifestyle.

  • Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike, yes you did bring up Adam and Eve, "as a Catholic, I was always taught in evolution, and that Adam and Eve were a story to try and explain how the world started before we knew about things such as the solar system and dinosaurs."

    You are only fooling yourself when you try and ignore the Scriptures.

  • Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike2685, God didn't click His fingers, He in fact spoke creation into existence. But if you choose to believe in evolution as the source of our existence that is your choice, but could you then explain where sin evolved from and the fact that death and destruction occurred prior to the arrival of mankind and yet the Bible clearly teaches in the Old and New Testament that Adam was indeed the first man and that death and destruction came into the world through Adam's sin?

  • Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Actually, I didn't bring up Adam and Eve, that was someone else, but thanks for trying to pin something else on me, too bad you failed at it. This sheds some light on those who believe being gay in wrong as it is in the Bible. If you truly believe God just clicked his fingers and the Earth appeared, than you are so blinded by your faith that you are completely ignorant to science. We know the Earth has been around for millions and millions of years, changing over a long, long period of time. It is very possible to follow Christ but not turn your back on logical scientific reasoning.

  • Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Besides, none of this changes the truth of Scripture (as you so fondly want it to, otherwise why would you bring evolution, seemingly out of nowhere, to call into question the accuracy of Scriptures?). Like I've already said, I believe what Scriptures teach, I don't pick and choose, according to my feelings, like some people. Beyond that, I simply don't know.

  • Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Catholics also encourage you to pray to Mary, for her to interceed for us to Christ. The Scriptures, on the other hand, teach us to pray to Christ (not Mary), so He may interceed for us to God the Father.

  • Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I 'lash out" at the fact that many Christians believe the Bible to be word for word true. as a Catholic, I was always taught in evolution, and that Adam and Eve were a story to try and explain how the world started before we knew about things such as the solar system and dinosaurs. Science does not overtake religion, but it certainly supplements it in many cases, and evolution is one of them.

  • Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,

    It is apparant that your credence to the Christian Religion is very superficial and skin deep. It is true of you that "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me". This is clear because once you're pressed on the topic of divine scriptures, you quickly lash out against them.

  • Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:29 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    mike2685, dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible (Job 40:15-24 and Job 41) except they were not called dinosaurs because there is no word for dinosaur in the Hebrew language. As for planets they are not mentioned except for the sun and the moon simply because that's all man could view at that time, but the Psalms refer to the vastness of God's creation which would imply they knew there was far more to creation than what the naked eye could see. But once again none of these issues take away from the fact that God created it all as told in Genesis.

  • Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    OK, nowhere in the Bible were dinosaurs mentioned, yet we know they existed because of their fossils. Nowhere in the Bible did it talk about God creating the other planets in our solar system, or the other solar systems which very well could have life on them. Where do dinosaurs come into play in all this? Were they just conveniently left out of the Bible, or do you not believe they existed?

  • Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,

    I thought this Scripture is quite fitting for you:

    "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." (2 Timothy 4:3, NIV).

  • Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike2685, no I can't prove that Adam and Eve existed, but the God of the Bible is all-powerful and His Word declares that He did indeed create the world in a literal six days to include the creation of Adam and Eve. I like many other Christians who post on these sites believe that the Bible in it's original autographs is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God and we do indeed believe the Creation story as recorded in Genesis.

  • Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:53 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    You realize that that excuse is the result of your desire to avoid God's Word. I subscribe to what the Bible says, beyond that, I do not know.

  • Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Can you prove there were ever 2 people named Adam and Eve? It scares me a bit that you truly believe the earth just went "poof" and 2 people appeared. I believe God had control over its creation, but I believe it happened in the Big Bang type model as opposed to one minute there's nothingness, 7 days later there's this whole planet as well as various other planets which serve no immediate purpose and are in no way included in the Bible.

  • Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:46 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    mike2685, you know I both love and respect you, but I've got to say that has to be one of the most stupid reasons I've ever heard to justify the homosexual lifestyle to say it is a good way to control the population problem. Number one the only reason we have a population problem is because of the greed and selfishness in our world. We have the capability and resources to feed and clothe every person in the world, but because of the self-centered and self-serving world we live in people and especially children are needlessly dying and starving throughout our world today. But this is not a new problem because this problem started the moment Adam and Eve bought the lie and bit the fruit.

  • Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    We do not need Scripture for everything in our lives. I believe the Holy Spirit acts and moves within each of us, whether we know/believe it or not. How else would people who have never been raised in any kind of faith have a conscience or be able to do good deeds? Those don't come from knowledge of Scripture, those are innate.

    God most certainly did create us to be sexual beings or else sex would not feel good. You cannot separate our most animalistic tendencies from God's image and likeness, for they are a part of us. That being said, no, homosexuality is not "natural" in terms of being able to reproduce, but we're at a crisis time in our society where countries like China don't know what to do with their high reproduction rate. Perhaps homosexuality as we know it today (being same sex committed couples rather than pagan ritualistic orgies) is a method of population control...we're people who love just like any straight couple, and studies have shown children we adopt are better off in a stable, loving home than in the foster care system.

  • Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:52 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Scripture repeadedly testifies to its own authority e.g. II Timothy 3:16-17: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work"

    It does not say that a man can be equipped for a good work apart from Scripture, rather it says that a man is trained in Scripture so that he may be able to do good works.

    But how do I wrestle in argument with a man who does not hold to the validity of holy Scripture? How do I wrestle with a man who prefers the 'Scripture' of his own experience (which is really New Age spirituality with the name of Jesus on the cover)? Who holds his own experience, and this himself, as the standard for judging right and wrong? God will most certainly not tell you to do something contrary to what is already written - Satan most certainly will though.

    Again, look at it from a different angle. Refer to Christ's Temptation in the Desert (e.g. refer to Matthew 4). When Christ went to the desert, and the devil appeared to tempt him, he posed three questions (look it up at your liesure), what was the devil trying to get Jesus to do? He was not trying to get him to sin directly, rather, he was trying to get Christ away from God's Word. How did Christ respond every time? He quoted Scripture! Not his fluffy experience, or what he felt at the time, he quoted what was written! This Jesus, whom you claim to love, God in flesh, relied on God's written Word to persevere through the temptation!

    The devil most certainly has gotten you to turn away from God's Word, and rely on other sources. He accomplished in you, what he could not accomplish in Christ (namely, turning away from God's written Word).

    I had another illustration, but I believe you can see the point already made. Namely, Christ relied on God's written Word, therefore, we should do likewise.

  • Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:31 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Doesn't matter what your or my personal 'feelings' or dispositions are on the matter. It matters infinitely what the Spirit testifies according to His Word. Put it this way, how can the Spirit testify in your life things that are contrary to His nature revealed in His Word.

    I am at a loss to understand here. One one side of the coin, you learn from the Scriptures about Jesus (for if the Scriptures weren't preserved, the generations of time would have long forgotten about Christ). So you like the Jesus you are told about in Scriptures. Yet on the other side of the coin, you don't think highly enough of the Scriptures to obey them. You basically want icecream with zero calories!

    Everyone, by plain reason, can arrive at the conclusion that homsexuality is unnatural (for as the old cliche goes it was "adam and eve, not adam and steve"), therefor, barring the word of God, your own concience testifies against such acts!

    God did not create us to be sexual beings, he created us in His image to commune with Him and others. These sexual feelings are the very lowest - most animal - part of our nature. Nature dictates that a man and woman be coupled (never seen two men procreate with one another), and more importantly, Scripture testifies to this. So homosexuality is unnatural, and more importantly, sinful.

  • Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:36 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Mike2685,

    Believe it or not, I would not post here at all if I did not think someone might read what God has said and turn away from sin and to Him.

    I realize you are convinced you are right. But on the off chance you might be willing to read further on Romans 1:18-2:11 and how that applies to homosexual sin, I have posted something that I think is too long for a single post here:
    http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/romans-118-211-sin-and-righteousness/

  • Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Where in the Bible does it say that? Is that your personal belief? My personal belief is that I am meditating on his word by believing every experience I go through in life in some way can bring me closer to him. I agree that we will not find common ground between us, but I don't feel any need to. As you would agree, it is not you I will be answering to, and I know Jesus is in my heart, regardless of how you may feel about that.

  • Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:15 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Well, sir, we must certainly have a disagreement between us. I don't believe there is much left to say on this.

    I will say one more point, and leave this with you to think about.
    "Through loving him, I can meditate on what Jesus' love must be like for us since he promises it is beyond our comprehension."

    Meditating on Christ's infinitude can only be properly done within the framework of His Word. Once you base your meditations outside of God's Word, you go the way of the pagans.

    That is the final point I will leave you with. Please just think about it. I don't expect you to respond, nor do I want to continue in debate. May the Lord have mercy.

  • Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    the truth of the universe is found with science, not religion,, in my humble opinion.

  • Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I don't believe Jesus calls us to choose. Through loving him, I can meditate on what Jesus' love must be like for us since he promises it is beyond our comprehension. I hear what you're saying, but I disagree. Through every experience, sinful or non, we learn, and God has a way of speaking to us when we're truly on the path of destruction (i.e. a drug user hitting rock bottom.) This relationship is healthy, I do not believe love can be corrupted or made sinful (and I know the difference between lust and love) and I do believe Jesus has led me to where I am today. Paul was referring to ritual orgies in his encounters with same sex partners, never committed couples whom he never mentioned. Looking at the Bible in context helps understand where things are coming from. When God condemned something, it was never because he just felt like telling us "sorry, but what makes you happy doesn't fly with me" it was always because it would in some way harm us physically or emotionally. My loving relationship in no way harms me in the worldly sense, and our love will someday provide a stable, loving environment in which to adopt and raise children. There is no logical reason as to why God would forbid it, and so I do not believe in your interpretation of the scripture (and there have been many interpretations.)

  • Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    P.S. I know you have probably a million justifications for remaining in your sinful relationship right now (perhaps, "he's such a nice guy", or "We've built up such a great life together", or "The Lord will show me [even though he has in His Word] some day that He doesn't want me to be gay, etc., etc., etc.) I'm sure you literally have a million and one justifications for remaining in that relationship. But that's precisely it, justifications for ignoring God's Word.

    Regardless the consequences, obedience (to God and His holy Word) demand that you end the relationship. And I know it's hard, probably the hardest choice: but if you truly love Jesus, you'll hear his voice (in His Word), and you'll take up your cross and follow Him.

    It really comes down to this: Who do you love more, Jesus, or this man? Choose today who.

    I say these very difficult words with compassion, sincerely,

    Matthew

  • Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:01 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Friend, I know this is precisely the same kind of wrestling you had with your own sin. So much so, now you call your homosexual sin 'good'. And believe me, I understand what that is like, to call sin 'good'.

    The only remedy is, and you'll hate me for saying this, is strict obedience: namely ending the sinful relationship. The Lord has put before you a fork, either: go the way of His Word, in obedience; or follow your natural desires.

    It is an either, or situation, you can choose obedience, or you can reject obedience (to the commands of God's Word). Either crucify (utterly reject) your natural desires, or you're better off going to a golf course on Sunday morning.

    I stand here and plead with you, as someone who has also been hardened in sin, to choose obedience and crucify (reject) your natural desires.

  • Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:53 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "I believe if he doesn't want me to be gay, he'll show me someday" The problem waiting for him to show you He doesn't want you to be gay is that He already told you He doesn't want you to be gay in His holy Word.

    Here's a powerfully relevant Scripture (James 1:14-15):

    "but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

    You see, how a person is towed into sin. First the temptation. Next when a person succums to the temptation, sin is birthed. Then, when the sin reaches its maturity, spiritual death occurs (utter hardness of heart).

    Friend, I've been hardened in sin before, I know what it's like. First came the tempation, then the wrestling with my concience, then the 'rational' arguments to justify the sin, then finally reaching a rational argument to commit the sin, I committed it. Next, after committing the sin, I was hardened in heart, I believed what was sin was good and right. So in the end and maturity of my sin, I ended up calling the sin a good act. But, the Lord be praised, He delivered me from this particular sin.

  • Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    OK Matthew, but the human mind is also a very powerful thing. For a while, I thought I was being called to be a Catholic priest instead of a teacher. People told me I would be so great at it, as I was involved in a retreat group and could connect to the scriptures and bring light to people. The more I prayed about it, the more I found myself getting truly caught up in that "yes, this must be what Jesus wants me to do." Then I began thinking about it...about the church blaming its problems with pedophile priest on gays and saying no more gays would be allowed into the church. That to me was a slap in the face, but also a worldly message. I truly believe that God takes us and uses us as we are, and transforms us in the ways he sees fit. I believe he knows those who love him, and yes, he desires repentence, but also lets us make mistakes, sometimes big ones, so that we may learn from them. My mistake was letting others tell me the way I should go with my life. When I listened to my heart, I chose teaching, and how blessed I have been to work in the city and learn so much about real struggle. How blessed I am to have a partner who loves me and has shown me that I can be committed and feel loved, but respect myself enough to exhibit control over my desires (I used to be very promiscuous.) I am hoping that someday I will be blessed enough to adopt a child or a few out of the foster care system and show them the love and support my parents have shown me through this crazy journey of life.

    My point is this: I appreciate the place you are coming from (trying to save me) but I believe God lets us go down roads because he knows that oftentimes we need to learn something before we can move closer to him. I believe if he doesn't want me to be gay, he'll show me someday, but for now I am learning a lot about myself and about struggling for what I feel is right. I am not closed to the idea that maybe God will call me to be celibate someday, but so far I am not feeling that, and it is not for you or anyone else to say what God has planned for me or that the journey I am currently taking is one I am not supposed to be on.

  • Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,

    I'll share with you an instance of where I had to 'take up my cross and deny myself'.

    I used to want to join the police. But the Lord, by various ways, revealed to me that He would rather me be in the Ministry. I was overjoyed at first, but then I was very sad at the sacrafice I would have to make (namely giving up my lifelong dream).

    The temptations became so great of me wanting to join the police, yet I knew as my concience testified, that the Lord revealed to me His will for me was the Ministry. I literally became depressed from the temptations, and the desires to go into the police. I sobbed for days and days, weeks and weeks, and even the depression carried into months. Every fiber of my being wanted to be disobedient and join the police - but I knew that it would be stark disobedience.

    So I stuck through the temptations, the Lord has eased the burdens over time - yet I still have these desires and I don't think they'll entirely go away. Yet the Lord has been faithful through those times, and he remains faithful.

    The Lord has not yet brought the vision of Ministry into reality - yet I believe and know He will bring that vision into reality, provided I continue to deny myself.

    I know I must pick up my cross, and go a different direction than my natural desires and inclinations. And daily I deny these temptations. Daily I must deny these temptations until I breath my last. I pray and hope that you will do the same.

    Sincerely,

    Matthew

  • Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Well, I'm not going to get into a word game with translations - but have a flip through of Romans 1 in the major translations KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, ASV, etc., you'll quickly discover that Paul is writting about the same (homosexual) sin in all translations. Read the Greek if you have the liesure to learn the language. No way of getting around it. I'm certain you are familiar with this passage, though.

    Besides, it speaks of 'sexual immorality' elsewhere (e.g. Revelation 21) and what is 'sexual immorality'? A clear concience testifies that it is anything contrary to the normal course of human nature (e.g. refer to Adam and Eve), also refer to Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Ephesians 5:31 - clearly the man and woman as husband and wife is the biblical model of marriage outlined both in the OT and NT.

    Anyone who is homosexual and just can't 'shake' those lusts, ought to deny himself and abstain from such practices. Even if this means a life free of marriage.

    One more point. I disagree when you say that the Bible is a book of man. I will agree that translations are not perfect, but the words are not what is most important, it's the ideas that the words convey. Who is the author of all 66 books? The Holy Spirit. Who did the Holy Spirit use to write these books down? Various men. The Holy Scriptures are authoritative on a Christian's life.

    Besides, if if you look at different translations, they only serve to complement one another, and build up a clear meaning of the message conveyed in the Scriptures.

  • Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I do not turn my back on God, but I most certainly do question what is written in the Bible. I, like many Christians, realize the Bible was written by men, and although God is inerrant and I believe the original Bible was as close to inerrant as men could get it, many, many translations differ (i.e. in certain versions you will find the word homosexual often whereas in others you won't find it once...why is that?)

  • Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Mike,

    Take a look at the example of Augustine. Rather than wading through hundreds of pages of text (such as Augustine's Confessions), here is a sermon on the life of Augustine. It was delivered by Dr. John Piper.

    http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=14812

  • Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Mike,

    If you will only renounce your sin before Jesus Christ - he will cleave to you as he cleaves to his son.

    Please, I beg of you, renounce your sin. I know it's tough, I've have sins that trouble me too, so I know the pain of continually turning my back on them.

    From some of the discussions I've had with you, I know you struggled with homosexual sin before, but you gave in. Please, other people have sins that are similiar, so we understand, but the difference is we must keep turning our back on the sin - day in, day out, till the day we die.

    Confess before the Lord, he will forgive you. Discipline yourself, and He will discipline you. Admit your futility against resisting sin, and He will give you strength and light to fight the temptations.

    Resist sin, and sin will flee from you. It takes discipline, but pray to the Lord continually: He will give you light.

  • Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:42 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Mmm, no, you can love God but question the fact that Scripture often contradicts itself"

    Pure and simple, textbook definition of a heretic. Need I say more? Whoever rejects the Word of God, rejects God too. By your own admission you reject the Word of God.

  • Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Mmm, no, you can love God but question the fact that Scripture often contradicts itself and has been interpretted by men who claim to be following God but have personal agendas. Gays have been hated throughout history, yet gays are not these evil wicked creatures. We're not on the same playing field as murderers, that is simply absurd when you stop and use logic. You can pass judgments on me and claim I do not know or love God, but know that what you say has no bearing on my relationship with him and I do not fear you. Rather, I pity you and your clear desire to gain acceptance from other ignorant Christians by spewing the same hateful rhetoric day after day.

  • Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Okay, Mike. A heretic is by definition someone who flatly rejects the Word of God, its commands, etc. in the face of plain reason of the testimony of Scriptures. You have flatly rejected that homosexual behaviour is a sin, since people have plainly shown you that the Scriptures make clear that it is, that makes you a heretic. Heretics close their ears and say "la, la, la, I'm not listening" when confronted with Scripture that speak against their own delusions and fantasies.

    Those who reject the Word of God, reject God (proofs of this abound throughout Scriptures). Since you reject the Word of God (as is apparant in your flat out refusal to call sin, sin according the Word), you reject God. Therefore, my accusation of you being 'godless' holds true.

  • Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:10 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Did you just call me a godless sinner? As a matter of fact, I have a strong faith in God, so don't go around telling people they do not believe or that they are sinners. Unless you are without sin yourself, I don't believe you should be casting stones...or are you of such a higher state of being than I that you somehow surpass the teachings of Jesus? Thee was no love for your neighbor in that comment. Perhaps you need to search your soul for a better way of "preaching" before you go out and do so.

  • Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:22 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Again, heretics such as you, Mike, grieve the flock of Christ, publically parading their shame - much to the embarassement of the reputation of the Famous One.

    Tremble, you godless sinner. You who say "surely Judgement Day will not come". Fear and quake before your sin, you stiff necked scoffer. Repent before the gates of hell swallow you alive.

    Judgement is coming, Judgement is coming, as surely as the LORD Almight lives, Judgement is coming. Flee Sodom! flee for your life. Burning brimestone is being poured out in Sodom as we speak, the hot smell of sulfer is filling the streets as we speak. Flee Sodom!

  • Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:43 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Again with the same scripture passages on every page...are you one of those people who talks just to hear your voice?

  • Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:23 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Jesus spoke out against all sexual sins condemned in the Old Testament by use of the word porneia, so that would include homosexual sex. Porneia is defined as illicit sex, as defined in Lev 17, 20 and Dt 22. It has been translated as unchastity, or fornication, or immorality.

    Mt 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of UNCHASTITY, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

    Mt 15:19-20 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, FORNICATIONS, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.

    Mt 19:9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for IMMORALITY, and marries another woman commits adultery.

    Mk 7:21-22 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, FORNICATIONS, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.

    Romans 1 says even the desire of a man for a man or a woman for a woman is sin. The act of sex between two people of the same gender is also sin.

    The term translated in Romans 1 as "lust" is epiqumia in Greek. It means desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust.

    It is even the mere desire for same gender sex that is wrong in God's eyes.

    If we are to go to heaven, we must do it God's way. He said we need to repent, turn to God and live like it (Acts 3:19; James 2:14-19; Acts 26:20).

    Repent does not mean feel bad. Repent does not mean acknowledge. Repent means change. If one does not change (of sins, from following one's own dictates rather than God, and believing one gets to set the rules rather than God, and that one's efforts are enough, etc.) and turn to God and then have a life that give evidence of that change, then one is not saved to begin with. That's what James was talking about that even the demons believe and shudder, but we know they are not in heaven. We are saved through faith in Christ, but there must be evidence of a changed heart for it to be true faith.

  • Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:31 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    St. John's: Ever think of actually dusting off that leather bound book of yours and opening it?

  • Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:59 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 5

    Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, but he said a great deal about self-righteousness, and you guys are certainly condemned by that!

  • Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:44 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    "I believe the "A" on the podium stands for Apostate. Right?"

    I was going to ask the same thing. ha! ha! I was thinking antichrist...

    Great minds think alike.

  • Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:38 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

    Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences CONTRARY TO THE DOCTRINE which ye have learned: and avoid them.

    For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by GOOD WORDS AND FAIR SPEECHES DECEIVE the hearts of the simple (Romans 16:17, 18).

  • Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:52 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Doesn't his golden 'A' sign look a lot like the golden arches? lol.

    But seriously, he should have replaced the term 'innovator' with 'heretic'; and replaced the term 'traditionalist' with 'orthodox'. He's trying to juggle heresy with orthodoxy - that's at the root of what this dude is trying to do. I say kick the heretics on the side of the street.

  • Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:47 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

    I believe the "A" on the podium stands for Apostate. Right?

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