Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Opinion|Tue, Aug. 12 2008 09:43 AM EDT

In Defense of Marriage – Part IV

By S. Michael Craven|Christian Post Guest Columnist

Marriage is designed for sex and sex is designed for marriage. Nonmarital sex ultimately harms the individual and society. Marriage, as I have already shown, is also exclusively heterosexual in that it conforms to the biological design for human sexuality and fulfills the reproductive principle. While same-sex couples may enjoy an emotional bond and engage in sexual acts, they are unable to achieve this one-flesh union because there is no biological communion such as that achieved through procreative acts. In the absence of this biological principle, sex becomes merely instrumental for self-satisfying pleasure and therefore falls into the same destructive category of self-centered acts that characterize all nonmarital sex.

Any deviation from this proper relationship for sex (i.e., marriage), as well as its proper biological design (i.e., homosexual), is a perversion of human sexuality; history demonstrates that such deviations will inevitably undo those societal goods associated with marriage and the natural family.

So what are these “goods” that derive from marriage? According to the eminent University of Chicago sociologist Linda Waite, there are a multitude of documented benefits unique to natural marriage that would be nullified if marriage were altered. For example:

Married people live longer, are healthier, have fewer heart attacks and other diseases, have fewer problems with alcohol, behave in less risky ways, have more sex—and more satisfying sex—and become much more wealthy than single people. (As quoted by Robert Browning in a book review of The Case for Marriage: Why Married People are Happier, Healthier and Better Off Financially by Linda Waite and Maggie Gallagher).

Regarding mortality, studies reveal that “mortality rates are 50 percent higher for unmarried women and 250 percent higher for unmarried men than they are for married women and men” (Waite and Gallagher, The Case for Marriage [New York: Broadway Books, 2000], 47). In regards to men matched in every respect except marital status, nine out of ten married men who were alive at age forty-eight made it to sixty-five; only six out of ten bachelors lived to the usual retirement age (Waite and Gallagher, 50).

Mortality rates for homosexual men are even higher. According to a study that appeared in the International Journal of Epidemiology, which examined the homosexual community in Vancouver, Canada, “Life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men” (Robert S. Hogg et al., “Modeling the Impact of HIV Disease on Mortality in Gay and Bisexual Men,” International Journal of Epidemiology, 26 [1997]: 657).

Another overlooked benefit of marriage is that of physical security for women. While some may want you to believe that marriage facilitates the oppression and subjugation of women, the reality is that spousal abuse is not the primary source of domestic abuse in this country; it is nonspousal abuse. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey conducted by the US Department of Justice, of all violent crimes against domestic partners (male/female) that occurred between 1979 and 1987, boyfriends or ex-husbands commit the overwhelming majority of crimes. In total, 20 percent of women report having been assaulted by their partner. However, husbands presently living with their wives committed only 9 percent of these crimes. The evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates that being unmarried puts women at a much higher risk of domestic abuse.

Abuse within male homosexual relationships is as high as 46 percent (“Domestic Violence in Gay and Lesbian Couples,” www.psychpage.com/gay/library/gay_lesbian_violence). Among lesbian couples, some research shows that the lifetime prevalence of physical assault among women living with female partners was 35.4 percent. Given that same-sex “marriage” would exist in name only without its essential defining elements, its application to homosexual couples would, most likely, not serve to arrest the high rates of domestic abuse among gays. Continue »

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  • Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "And "feeling good" just happens to be a perk."

    Exactly how long would the human race have lasted if it was deathly painful??? Maybe one child! Realism plays a part here. Pleasure is indeed a good thing. Still, what is real pleasure? People get 'pleasure' from drinking too much, doing drugs or even stealing. If pleasure is the underlying goal to life then are we ever in trouble.

    I am running stuff off at the church today and was listening to a preacher at a youth camp (he had the crowd rolling!). One of the points he made was that we were created for HIS pleasure and not ours. It's like God says "would you like a drink? Would you like a Coke or Diet Coke? Would you like ice with that? Yes. I'm God with a pocket full of change and I'd LOVE to get you something to drink!" The teens thought that was funny but they got the point.

    It's not about our pleasure, it's about His. I'm glad He gave us the concept of pleasure and I'm glad He explained the way He designed it to be used for His pleasure. What's that? The Bible talks about the relationship between the husband and wife being a model of Christ and the church. If you are using a model of something to make a point...don't you want the model to show what you are trying to show? Being the example Christ calls us to be is what brings Him pleasure.

  • Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin,
    "If God did design sex in part for pleasure, and these two people derived pleasure from the act, would not that make it seem sensible that God designed this form of sex, too?"
    From my past experience, being a recovering sex addict, there are a number of different ways that a person can derive "pleasure" from sexual encounters. Forms of "foreplay" that supposedly make sex more enjoyable. Many of them, I won't post because they are extremely....um....disturbing. But bondage and asphyxiation are two that I could post.
    The point is, just because it "feels good" doesn't mean it is. As Daniel pointed out sex has two primary purposes:
    1. Bonding.
    2. Procreation

    And "feeling good" just happens to be a perk.

  • Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You made my point for me. It isn't sexual DNA bonding which is how God designed it "the two shall become one flesh". You don't get that with homosexual sex. Sex was designed for the two to become one. This is why God finds homosexual sex disgusting and hates divorce.

    He designed such a wonderful way for a man and woman to bond more and more for a lifetime. He doesn't want that bond ripped through divorce, fornication or what by definition is a knockoff of His design (same sex relations).

    He designed sex for a purpose. Pleasure is only one of those purposes and not very high up one the Biblical scale at that. It's about the two becoming one flesh. You might get your jollies in a variety of ways but that doesn't mean it is His design. That's the point. Each person will answer for the stewardship of their bodies. He will judge based on His defined use of His design. Ever notice God doesn't seem to reward 'creativity' when it comes to His instructions?

  • Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "There is medical biological evidence through the study of DNA that bond men and women through 'normal' sex. In fact, evidence of the partner can be found in the body up to 7 years later. It is a unique transfer between male and female bodies."

    I think this bonding between amn and woman is fascinating. There are other bonds, too, however. I remember in college in the fraternity basement, one of the brothers had gotten hold of a porn movie. It was pretty weird -- and actually boring after a short while. It was 95% hetero-sex, but there were two, I think, short homo-sex episodes. (Are the children still asleep?) The frat brothers were hooting and hollering and hissing during these parts, but I think all could see that male-male anal sex not only "works" pretty easily (and even apparently cleanly), but there is what appears to be real intimacy. Clearly it was enjoyable for both parties, though most of the viewers that night probably would not admit such. If God did design sex in part for pleasure, and these two people derived pleasure from the act, would not that make it seem sensible that God designed this form of sex, too?

    (If anyone thinks this is the wrong forum for such a question, just delete my comment. I'm a bit sheepish myself about posting such text. If deleted, I won't complain or re-post.)

  • Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Daniel,
    "My kids get their looks from their mother...GOOD THING!!!"

    Hahaha! I say the same thing about my kids. I tell people if they had gotten my looks I'd have to tie them up outside and feed them raw meat. LOL.
    But there is a trade off. They got my wife's looks, but my personality. Ugh!

  • Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    My kids get their looks from their mother...GOOD THING!!!

    Check out the Gov of CA and his wife. Look at a picture of her from before they were married. He has a bit of a 'softer' look to him over the years.

  • Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    If my wife and I were to start looking like each other, I hope she doesn't get any of my looks. I fell out of an ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.

  • Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "The way the male and female bodies work requires quantities of blood. The male fluid makes it's way into the female's blood and the females fluid makes it into the males blood.

    Ever notice that a man and woman who have been married for a while start to look like each other?"

    A fascinating point. Is it true? I have never thought about this aspect of sex. But, frankly, I hope these remarks ARE true. It's a beautiful idea.

  • Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Medwreck is just here to stir up the pot. He has no argument. Just insults.

  • Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "sex that departs from procreation is sinful"

    Apparently you know less about medical science than I do about spelling....

    There is medical biological evidence through the study of DNA that bond men and women through 'normal' sex. In fact, evidence of the partner can be found in the body up to 7 years later. It is a unique transfer between male and female bodies.

    At this point all the children need to go to bed...

    The way the male and female bodies work requires quantities of blood. The male fluid makes it's way into the female's blood and the females fluid makes it into the males blood.

    In the case of homosexual sex, it is the bacteria, fluids and other things found in the rectum that make it into the male blood. Perhaps this is why God says it's disgusting. There is no DNA bonding in homosexual sex.

    Ever notice that a man and woman who have been married for a while start to look like each other?

  • Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    He throws in quotes with no context...what a simplistic hack-job, I hope this doesnt qualify as Christian scholarship.

  • Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:20 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    This guy doesnt quit...

    I think this sentence should have another word inserted. "And finally, the REPORTED physical and sexual abuse of children is much higher in cohabiting families than in married families (Waite and Gallagher, 135)." is this perhaps because mom's willing to keep daddy's little secret too.

  • Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And then he goes on to perpetuate the erroneous belief (touted for centuries and some countries/regions today) that if women are unmarried they are more prone to be victims of violence. Nice. You have lost all credibility dude.

  • Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Okay, so sex that departs from procreation is sinful and married people have more sex--and more satisfying sex. So married people that have sex are sinners. It took him half a page to contradict himself, I think I neednt read any further.

  • Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:20 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    viking, many times it may be the only church in the area and many people even though they are not actively attending church still do want to be married in a church. Also, some see this as a way to encourage them to come to church. But I agree you do open yourself up to some possible problems with a policy like this.

  • Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, I guess if 1.a gay marriage law was passed and 2.sexual orientation was granted protected class status in relation not only to employment and access to public accomodations but also in relation to use of privately owned facilities and 3.the existing exemptions for religious organizations were repealed and 4. if a gay couple sought to be married in a church that was opposed to gay marriage and 5. that church at the same time allowed non members to be married in the church then yes there could be such a problem and the church in that situation would be wise to restrict marriages in the church to members.
    By the way why would a church have a policy letting non members be married in their church. There must already be all kinds of problems that arise from this aside from the issue of gay marriage.

  • Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Its all about love

    Deuteronomy 11:1
    Love the LORD your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

    Joshua 22:5
    But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD gave you: to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to obey his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul."

    Nehemiah 1:5
    Then I said: "O LORD, God of heaven, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and obey his commands,

    Daniel 9:4
    I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed: "O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands,

    Matthew 22:36-40
    36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

    Mark 12:30-31
    30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

    John 14:15
    If you love me, you will obey what I command.

    John 14:21
    Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

    John 14:23-24
    23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    John 15:10
    If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

    1 John 2:4-6
    4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

    1 John 5:2-4
    2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

    2 John 1:5-6
    5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

    If we say we love God, we must obey. If we do not obey, we do not love God.

  • Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Oh Daniel....
    That was not punny at all!

  • Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin,
    LOL. It's okay. You had me all confused! I thought I was going senile, I couldn't remember saying that.

  • Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    OK...Over the head it went...the appeal or mush comment was in the area of the "King Kong" statement...I was punning about a banana.... a peel or mushy (old) banana....

    All at once now.......UGH!....

  • Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Oops, Prophet, that question ("Did this answer have appeal or was it just mush?") was from Daniel Paul, not you. Sorry.....

  • Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    viking, thanks for your response and it does sound like the Maine legislature did their homework before they passed this law. But correct me if I'm wrong, this law does not speak to same-sex marriages/unions and so at this point the jury is still out as to how a church who allows for others to use their facilities will be dealt with if they were to refuse to allow for a same-sex marriage service to be held in their church. It seems that their only recourse would be to allow only their church members to use the facilities of the church.

  • Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    viking: That sounds like a fair law you have in Maine.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer by the way here in Maine a "Gay rights" law was passed and survived a referendum of the people. One of the main reasons for its survival was its limited scope. The law protects homosexuals from discrimination in employment, education and housing but importantly has specific carve outs for religious beliefs and organizations. The legislature worked hard to protect both the basic human rights of individuals and the religious rights of others. The law has not resulted in any of the problem scenarios that were predicted by many before its passage.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, thanks for the clarifying question. I always like to be challenged to think through various scenarios. I took a little time to review legal precedents and status issues. Here is how it would go. It depends. (wait wait I'm not ducking the question). If a law allowing gay marriage did just that then the church would not have any difficulty since the basis for refusal was not a protected class. If on the other hand a much broader law was passed making sexual orientation a protected status (i.e. race, national origin, etc.) and a universal right against discrimination was established in relation to that status then there might be a problem. Even then however there would it is less likely unless the church practice of allowing non-members to use the facility was significantly broad. The way to avoid the possibility arising is to have a well crafted use or rental policy which prohibited activities inconsistent with the religious tenents or doctrines of the church. This is a fully permisible restriction under the principle of balancing of rights (1st amendment free excercise right trumps any statutory right) provided that the tenents violated are indeed those of the church and not just of some members.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin,
    I never said you called my writing mush. Where did you get that?

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Why "mush," Prophet? I never called your writing "mush."

    This Web site is full of "over-thinkers." What some people call a relationship, I suspect is lots of "head-talk" about do-this-do-not-do-this all day and night. When it doubt, these people memorize more scripture, so that they are always trapped in the words, words, words. I have quoted the early-20th-century British Methodist Ainsworth before. Concerning the Beatitudes, he said, "The truth we are seeking will forever refuse the thraldom of words." Many of you will have heard of Eckhart Tolle. I expect most here think he's an imp of the devil. (His surname in German means "mad," I believe, in the sense of "insane".) He was interviewed on "Speaking of Faith" this morning on NPR. Like every messenger, he is not so much an originator as he is something of a codifier of prevailing thoughts abroad in his world today (just as prevalent ideas took form around Jesus or Confucius). If for no other reason than to "take a short break from your constant head-talk," it would do a lot of you good to listen to this man's interview. If you go to http://eckharttolle.com/eckhart_biography and click on "Listen to Speaking of Faith," you can do just that. I am not a devotee of Tolle, but his ideas (which have been around for millennia) are valuable. He's not the new Christ, but if he were, the Pharisees here wouldn't recognize him anyway. Rather, they would just stay in their heads, judging the man.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin,
    Very good. Now can you understand that the last time I asked a similar question was to mike, not to you?

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, as far as I recall, that's the only time I've answered the question below:

    "Mike and hlerwin
    The problem that I do see is how weak your arguments are.
    You say that the romantic love that homosexuals share is of God, but the romantic love shared between a brother and sister isn't."

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hey chicago,
    As with many gay rights proponents, you prove yourself narrow minded.
    Who says that marriage is about procreation? It's about love (or so the homosexuals say...and they can't even reproduce).

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    So Mike....is that a yes? Or a no?
    And yes, I do love you. And I'm glad it doesn't depend on whether you believe me.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin,
    Why are you answering a question for Mike? I know that I had asked you that before. You already made that clear. That is why I didn't ask you again. I asked Mike. And that is who I'd like an honest answer from. Because the last time I asked Mike, yes he did circumvent the question and never answered it.
    So please let Mike be a big boy and answer his own questions. Thanks.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "strong possibility they will give birth to squash."

    Now then...I live in an area where Jeff Foxworthy just might come to get new material.... One of the debates is if you divorce your spouse are you still cousins?

    Anyway...again the Biblical issue isn't about what you can get away with. The issue is exactly how did God design marriage and what does he expect? It doesn't matter what our opinions may be. What matters is what God's 'opinion' on the subject may be.

    When people want to do what they want...they can 'prove' anything by spinning verses or by simply ignoring what is clearly written. Either you take God at His word or you don't. You either submit to it or you don't.

    I have learned over the years that not following or reading the directions the way you want to can lead to some very scary results. Sometimes you may not even know until long after the job is done. This is the same with homosexuality (or any other sin). You can say it's OK now but it will be before God after we each die that we will know for sure what will pass inspection.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin--yes and no

    The word used for 'fear' is a respect which is so high it invokes reverent behavior. In this case, God wants us to repect what He says and expects. In the case of King Kong you just needed to get out of the way!

    Did this answer have appeal or was it just mush?

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    viking, but what happens when someone comes to a local church which allows couples to get married who are not members of their church, but this time it is a homosexual couple who will bring their own minister to perform the ceremony. Will that church risk losing their tax-exempt status and facing other possible legal consequences if they refuse to allow the ceremony to be performed in their church because of their beliefs?

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    i most certainly have not circumvented, I answered multiple times. Take your blinders off, you just showed me you do not care at all to read what I have to say. Again, you do not love me! Your children you love because you raised them, so when they rebel of course you still love them. When it comes to me being gay, you would rather believe the lies groups like Exodus spread than what is truthful. That is not love, that is you looking for an excuse to hate on gays.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:35 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

    I agree with this to a degree, but doesn't it describe the same relationship the jungle residents had with King Kong?

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    viking,

    thanks for your thoughts on my blog. I'll ponder them.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I'm all for legalizing same-sex marriage but I do have a problem with siblings marrying because there's a strong possibility they will give birth to squash. Horrible things begin to happen when the genetic pool is minimized to such an extent.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "but thanks for falling back on scare tactics"

    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Those who have no fear have no wisdom.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet wrote to Mike: "And I think I've asked you this before, and all you've done was circumvent the question. Yes or no...do you have a problem with siblings marrying?"

    You asked both Mike and me, Prophet. I did not circumvent the question. You may rather have Mike's answer than mine. But I answered your question Aug 12 at the top of Defense, Part III. I never heard back from you. Here it is:

    Tue Aug 12, 8:40 pm

    Prophet, I think you misremember. Did I ever comment on incestuous love? I don't recall commenting. But if I did, I'm sure I said then what I think of it now: That's their business. Frankly, I have nothing against it. It does not appeal to me personally, but I know that the pre-missionary Polynesians practice brother-sister marriage. (Sometimes the young chief or chiefess was so "high born" that there was no suitable mate from outside their immediate family. ) I think the Egyptians practiced it, too. Anyway, all I know is that whoever a person chooses to marry, it is none of my business, so I really have no strong opinions about the practice. Different societies have different norms. (Of course, some of you on this site think all the people except the "Christians" are wrong!)

    And your post that follows misses the mark. I never said any such thing. And, what is "well thought out" supposed to mean? I just type out thoughts as they come to me. If I were planning to publish, I surely would think these thoughts out better. This is just a Web bulletin board, after all.

    Prophet wrote:
    "Mike and hlerwin
    The problem that I do see is how weak your arguments are.
    You say that the romantic love that homosexuals share is of God, but the romantic love shared between a brother and sister isn't.

    But, before either of you waste your time posting your "well thought out" answers, let me tell you how the discussion will go."

    Don't go off half cocked like this, Prophet.

    Will anyone answer MY question? Does anyone here see any problems with Craven's arguments? Let's say that he's a Christian, and that he is well-intentioned, and that he may even be a pretty nice guy. But is his argument any good at all? I think not. Does anyone think otherwise? (I notice that the clear-thinking wbmoore has never commented on the strength of Craven's essays. He may be "rooting" for a fellow Christian, but he hasn't defended Craven.)

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "gays can have long lasting, committed relationships, and perhaps the horrific violence towards gays will begin to slow down."
    Yes, I've never questioned that gays can have commited relationships. But I fear for their eternal souls. I pray that they will repent before they face God, and find out that they were misled. Because then it will be too late

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,
    I know you don't think I love you, but that doesn't change the truth that I do. You sound like a little kid who gets reprimanded for doing something wrong..."You don't love me! You don't! Or else you wouldn't keep me from doing something I love! You just want to ruin my life!"
    I know. I have a teenage son and a girl pushing the teen years. You sound just like them.
    Yes, I do love you. If you don't accept it, I've lost nothing, but you have.
    And I think I've asked you this before, and all you've done was circumvent the question.
    Yes or no...do you have a problem with siblings marrying?

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, typical "Christian" tactics to pull the "but I love you too much to let you go to hell!" You may know some atheists against gay marriage, but I know plenty of Christians (i.e. my entire family, grandmother included) who are for it. You keep proclaiming that gay marriage will be the moral downfall, but that is EXACTLY the same argument that was used to try and keep interracial marriage from happening. I'd say its been positive, because it challenged race relations and got some conversation going. Similarly with gay marriage, perhaps it will challenge homophobia by showing that yes, gays can have long lasting, committed relationships, and perhaps the horrific violence towards gays will begin to slow down.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hi believer thanks for bringing out that point regarding inter-racial dating as in fact it reinforces my argument. Let me explain. In that situation the university was not saying "Hey my religious faith prohibits me from participating in x behavior and I therefore refuse to do so" which would be the case in officiating at a gay marriage. Rather what they were doing was saying our religious faith says x behavior (inter racial dating) is wrong and therefore not only will we not engage in it but also WE WILL PROHIBIT YOU FROM ENGAGING IN IT. The line as always is drawn at the end of my nose. I will not be compelled to engage in acts contrary to my faith (this is repeatedly demonstrated in our judicial history i.e. quakers, Amish,etc) but I cannot dictate the behavior of others based on my religious faith. This is exactly the legal point in Gay marriage issues. Which is why in legal rather than moral challenges of gay marriage the successfull opposition rests on finding some non religious public interest in not allowing gay marriage.
    You are right about Canada. But that is not restricted to just religion. In Canada it is actually a crime to express the belief that the Holocaust never happened. While I find such views to be both ludicrous and repugnant as a supporter of our constitution I defend the right of idiots and bigots to hold them.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    viking, if Canada is any example then maybe a minister may not have to perform any same sex marriages, but he can be held liable if he speaks against them. Plus, at this time we don't know how this will all pan out with regards to ministers who refuse to perform these marriages. Plus, as far as performing inter-racial marriages, I'm not sure you are totally correct. Bob Jones University lost their tax-exempt status several years back for not allowing inter-racial dating and they based their decision to ban it on their interpretation of the Bible in this matter.

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    So you have no problem with siblings marrying?

  • Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You're one of those people who view that just because someone in the Bible did something, it must be alright. Not likely. Just because Solomon had numerous wives, doesn't mean that God approved of it.
    Throughout the New Testament, marriage is over and over and over and over again specified as one man married to one woman.





    it my understanding that the only thing disapproved was that he married pagan women.(influenced the building of pagan temples0 as far as number and sexual practices i know of no recrimination.

  • Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    But you are right about one thing. It won't hurt me directly. But two things do bother me.
    1. I love others as much as I love myself. So I don't want to see others succumb to sin, just as I don't want myself to experience it either. I don't want them to have to experience the judgement that awaits. I'd rather they experience life, and it tears me up when they spit in God's face, and crucify Jesus once again in their disbelief.
    2. It will affect me eventually. As more and more people fall into perversion, and more and more people find no moral objection to it, God will remove His hand from our country, if He hasn't yet.

  • Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,
    Typical tactics of satan. It's the same thing he told Eve in the Garden...."Oh no...go ahead and eat the fruit...it won't hurt you....honest...."
    Sorry, but it could, and will eventually, happen.

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