Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Society|Fri, Aug. 22 2008 11:10 AM EDT

Most Americans Unhappy with Church, Politics Combo

By Michelle A. Vu|Christian Post Reporter

For the first time in more than a decade, a majority of Americans believe churches and houses of worship should keep out of political matters.

The change in heart is the result of a shift in view of some social conservatives who are said to be disillusioned with the major political parties, according to a survey released Thursday by Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

Currently, half of conservatives believe churches and other houses of worship should keep out of politics, up from just 30 percent four years ago.

In particular, the survey found the shift is strongest among Americans who are less educated, who consider gay “marriage” a very important issue, and who think the two major parties are unfriendly towards religion.

"To my mind, that spells frustration," said Andrew Kohut, president of the Pew Research Center, according to The Associated Press. "But by the same token, we know these very same people are not interested in less religiosity in the political discourse. They almost universally want a religious person as president.

"It's not that they want to take religion out of politics, it's that their frustrations with the way things seem to be going are leading them to say, 'Well, maybe churches should back off on this.'"

With this new shift, conservatives now hold similar views with moderates and liberals on the issue of church and politics.

Overall, a slight majority (52 percent) of the public now says churches should “keep out” of politics and not express their views on social and political matters, compared to 44 percent who held this view in 2004.

Also, the sharp divide between Republicans and Democrats on the issue has disappeared.

Now, 51 percent of Republicans say churches should keep out of politics, and 52 percent of Democrats hold this same view. Back in 2004, there was a big gap in view between the two parties on the issue, with only 37 percent of Republicans wanting churches to not participate in politics, compared to 51 percent of Democrats.

Meanwhile, the American public’s opinion has remained relatively unchanged on the belief that churches and other houses of worship should not endorse candidates and that it is important for presidents to have strong religious beliefs.

The survey was conducted through phone interviews on July 31-August 10 from a national sample of 2,905 adults. This is the first time a majority of Americans want churches to stay away from politics since the Pew Forum started asking the question 12 years ago.

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  • artm »
    Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Proverbs 29, says, " When the Righteous are in Authority, The people rejoice, But when the wicked bear rule, the people mourn."

    Someone said, " It is an unfailing law, Much Bible, Much Freedom, Little Bible, Little Freedom, No Bible, No Freedom."

    America will only be free and Americans rejoice, If the Bible, Gods Word is allowed to spread to this Nation, and the Nation's of the World.

    The Church certainly should have a voice concerning the Political relm, Then and only then will we see America stand tall.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    letsgetreal - VERY WELL SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:22 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    In the Bible the prophets were always involved with the kings, to guide them according to the word of the Lord. That's how they fought battles. John the Baptist was beheaded for criticizing Herod. Jesus was killed for pointing out the hypocracy of the political Pharisees. In 1967, 41 years ago, Christians kept their mouths shut when 11 Governors decriminalized the killing of preborn babies and since then all America's biblical foundations have eroded. Now churches are finally finding their voice, and forced out of their comfort zones. We already see the problems our kids face, with God thrown out of schools and communities. If the church doesn't take a stand, then the Lord's enemies will and have. Let's not back down now. It's not about electing a Party, but how close are those we are electing holding to Biblical truths and righteousness. Jesus said we cannot serve two masters. And how can we fulfill a simple command like Jesus telling his disciples to let the little children come to him, if we decide to kill them first?

  • Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    The last 8 years have proven that when you mix politics and religion, all you end up with is politics. As an evangelical christian I will no longer allow the republican party to USE me or my vote. Until government is controlled by the people and not corprations or greedy, lying politicians, it will never change.

    I have just read a book that has opened my eyes and shaken me up. It's Greg Boyd's "The Myth Of A Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church." This book should be required reading for everyone in America who calls themselves a christian.

    http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Christian-Nation-Political-Destroying/dp/0310267315/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220999193&sr=1-1

  • Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:45 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    scitsonga,

    I understand kill to be stopping the life of someone or something, while murder is to kill someone with malice forethought. The dictionary add the term 'unlawfully' before 'kill'.

  • Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wb "The truth is, murder is always wrong "

    is there a difference between killing and murder in your view?

  • Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:57 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    I see the term 'relative truth' meaning something that is fluid - like some people would like ethics to be. Like "you might think murder is bad, but its not true for me." The truth is, murder is always wrong - some might not accept it, but it is truth none the less.

  • Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:16 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    I think the problem comes in with so many 'Christians' having multiple personality disorder of the faith. They have who they are at church, who they are at work, who they are at home, ... you get the idea. Christianity is about the renewing of your mind. You become a new person and that person is what all the areas of your life are based on.

    When I was a student at the Bible college my dad worked at I was asked what he was like at home. I had no idea at first what the question was about. The person went on to explain there were people who were more 'holy' at the college than the were at home. I explained to him that when it comes to my dad it's "what you see is what you get."

    The world isn't being turned off by Christianity in the political arena. It simply doesn't like the gospel.

  • Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:23 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    I think that we are driving people away from the church by politicizing our message. I used to love Dobson et al, but he has gone from being a biblical pro-family voice to being a pro-republican voice. There is a big difference, especially when he is about to endorse a repeated adulterer as our country's example for everyone. Ugh

  • igh »
    Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ok who's the wise guy and flagged my post

  • Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wb, I guess I see subjective and relative as synonomous terms, but I think we're in total agreement with what we're saying about truth. I think the real problem comes in when we try to make subjective truth an absolute truth and when we try to make an absolute truth a subjective truth. And I see the first happen many times in the Christian community and the latter happening quite often in the secular community.

  • Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Finally some good news in this world. This news is almost 2 years old but I just heard about it today.

    "Religious Decline in U.S. Follows Europe"

    "Is the U.S. following Europe in becoming less religious and more humanist? This is the tantalizing prospect held out by some recent surveys."

    "A new survey in the U.S. shows that the number of 18-25 year olds who are atheist, agnostic or nonreligious has increased from 11 percent in 1986 to 20 percent today. Meanwhile a survey of the United States and the five largest countries in Western Europe reveals that religious belief continues to plummet in Europe, with Italy being the only country with a majority believing in any form of God or supreme being. And even in these overwhelmingly godless countries, the young are still significantly less religious than their elders."

    http://humaniststudies.org/enews/?id=281&article=0

  • Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Yes DP, poor old Donna.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer,

    I think I understand what you mean. Basically it is something that is not always true in all situations. Like the statement, "I can swim 1 mile" is true for some people, and not true for everyone.

    But this does not mean truth is relative, but I think the term used by Daniel Paul is more accurate - it is subjective truth. It applies to certain people but not all people. But this is simply because the facts are not totally known or not taken into account to make an accurate statement of the facts. For instance, the fact is that people who do not have addictive personalities, are not addicted to nicotine, do not like the taste of smoke, and do not have a psychological addiction to the movements involved in smoking have little difficulty in stopping smoking. This is truth.

    We still have insufficient understanding on the issues involved in being delivered from sins to come up with an accurate statement that would always be true (although from experience, I believe it includes some equation containing faith, conviction, personal surrender to God, and the power of God). The best we can do is state things in a more general way as opposed to a more specific statement. Such as the difference between stating, "some people are delivered from sin upon salvation" and stating "all people are delivered from sin upon salvation". The first is always true, the second is always false.

    It seems to me that these examples have absolute truth inherent in them. Its just that without sufficient knowledge of the factors involved, it is inaccurate to describe them by stating "all". That is to say, it is absolute truth that '"some people are delivered from sinful habits at salvation," or "some people have no difficulty stopping habits." If we had more information on the issues involved in every situation, there would be no difficulty in making more detailed statements of absolute truth.

    But I agree, without specificity, there are statements made that are true in some instances and not true in all instances.

    But as has been stated before, just because someone does not understand the facts, does not mean a statement of truth is not always true. And as you say, this does not mean moral truth does not exist as an absolute, nor does it mean physical truth does not exist as an absolute.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wb, here's another one that may help show what I mean. I hear many Christians say that when they got saved God immediately released them from certain sinful habits. Then I hear other Christians say that they still struggle with various sinful habits. The problem comes in when those who were immediately released begin to challenge those who were not to the point of even questioning their salvation or their walk with the Lord. To me this is what happens if we try to make a relative truth an absolute truth.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wb, I see relative truth as being a truth that may be valid for some people, but not for all people. For example some people can just quit a habit where as some have a very difficult time such as smoking or drinking. Whereas an absolute truth is true for all people, such as Jesus Christ alone can save us from our sins.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer,

    What do you mean by a relative truth?

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Steve...an example of subjective truth would be that the seasons end of Doctor Who was SO COOL! Not everyone would agree (in the words of Mr. T ... "I pity the fool!"

    :D

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:14 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Truth (www.dictionary.com)

    1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
    2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
    3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
    4. the state or character of being true.
    5. actuality or actual existence.
    6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
    7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
    8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
    9. agreement with a standard or original.
    10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
    11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.

    An example of truth would be “I think. Therefore, I am.” You would have to think and exist to dispute it. I believe there is truth and anti-truth. Truth comes from God and anti-truth which comes from Satan. They are polar opposites. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Many other beliefs are a direct contradiction to His statement.

    In short, Jesus said He is the truth. You either accept that or your don’t. It’s the same with all other areas of life. You either accept what the Bible says about it or you don’t. I think sometimes we make Christianity too complicated. Jesus really had a way of cutting through the ‘stuff’ and getting to the simple truth of things. How could He do that so well? Simple. He is the truth.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Or take adultery, yes its wrong because one partner is not being honest with the other one, the other thing though is that the partner who is commiting the act is also doing themslves harm(though illicit sex and great conversation can be a heady thing so they most likely don't realise it, at least at the start).

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Depends what it is, take divorce for example, it can mess up peoples lives in the short term but in the long term it can actually be a good thing (obviously not in all cases)for people, allowing them to get on with their lives.

    Steve

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Steve,

    so that does that mean something that messes up lives is not wrong in your worldview?

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks wb your last paragraph is what I wanted...
    Steve
    P.s By the way your "apparently" about adultery in my world is incorrect, happy to put that right.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I think we need to be careful to realize that there is both absolute truth as well as relative truth. The problem with secular humanism and postmodern thinking is that they say there are no absolute truths and it appears they use relative truth to support that point of view. Absolute truth in the area of morals and values allows us to either accept it or reject it, but it does not negate it if we choose to reject it. For instance Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.", we can either choose to accept the fact that we are a sinner or reject it, but the fact is in the eyes of God we are all still sinners. Too many people think if they say that they don't believe in God or they don't believe the Bible is God's Word or they are not a Christian and so on, that they are not a sinner. What they fail to realize is that our opinion doesn't matter, God says it and that settles it. But they also need to see that God through Christ has provided a remedy to their sin problem, which is an absolute truth as well and once again a matter of choice that they can either accept or reject with consequences for both, positive if they accept and negative if they reject.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Is anyone else seeing the web pages on christian post refreshing themselves automatically? My Pc and my mac are both seeing this problem, and it can make it hard to write a post, when it refreshes in the middle of my typing.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I was speaking to the issue of whether truth is relative.

    You asked for simple examples of "what the evidence is for truth in absolutes." I gave a physical example. Then you asked how you can check that adultery is wrong. I said you can either trust someone who said it, or you can test it. You then told me all that tells you is adultery messes up lives and in the same breathe asked me where is the absolute. So apparently something that messes up lives is not wrong in your worldview.

    You asked what is the absolute by which we measure adultery to be bad. To which I said all truth comes from God, and that physical and moral laws can be tested. I said truth is in accordance with the facts. You asked what facts. I gave more examples of facts - both physical and moral.

    I'm answering your questions. I'm not worked up in the least. If your questions are not garnering the answers you are looking for, then perhaps you can form questions that will get you the information you are seeking?

    Truth exists. Truth is absolute. Something is either true or not true, regardless of whether someone knows the truth, or likes the truth, or accepts the truth. Truth can be discovered. Truth can be tested, although how we test those truths differs based upon the truth being tested. If someone discovers a truth, they discover evidence for God, even though they may not interpret it as such. The truth we discover in our environment about how things exist and work together are like footprints of our creator.

    As for why something is true, there is one reason: because it is. As for why truth exists, because God exists. I have two points of reference: experience/discovery (mine or others'), and God's word. God is truth, therefore, truth exists because God exists. God created the universe and instituted various laws. God created mankind. We discover these laws. We can live by them or not. There are consequences to both choices. As believer put it, we are not immune to those consequences, though we may not recognize the effects of the consequences for years or even until we die and face judgement.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I never said anything about morals being relative I just asked for examples of morals as facts as you stated. You where kind enough to write that murder is wrong but not kind enough to state why that is a fact whether somebody disagrees with it or not, what is your referance point to murder being wrong as a fact? If its the bible etc..just say so,thats okay, don't tie yourself up in knots so much, chill....
    Thanks
    Steve

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    These are facts that people have discovered, just as we have discovered physical laws - more facts, more truth. Truth is absolute, not relative.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You asked what facts. I reiterated them. Just like you live best by not eating cyanide, so too does society run best by not committing moral suicide. These are facts, truth. Its not relative, but absolute.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Which is ironic beacuse a little while ago on this site that continent was put forward as a Christian continent following the Anglican conferance.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Or societies run best and humans have the most productive lives etc..when these rules are adopted which is why they are upheld in civil law and punished by the state if broken? Also socities that tend to uphold the rule of law tend to be the most economicaly successful which is another incentive, look at Africa as an example of this not occuring.

  • Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Facts like murder and stealing are bad. As I've said, societies across the world and time have often come to the same rules: "do not murder", "do not steal", etc. These moral rules exist because of the moral laws created by God.

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Read the posts, still don't see any "moral facts" put forward though....puzzled?

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truth always comes from Magic. The physical laws were created by Magic. The moral laws were created by Magic.

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Steve,
    read my posts on Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:59 pm and Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:48 pm. They apply.

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It depends which facts you are considering. If we speak of the physical laws, then the facts concerning them. If we speak of moral laws, then the facts concerning them. The definition of truth is "in accordances with the facts." If something is a fact, it is truth.

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I'm sorry SteveH, but Truth is not relative. There is an absolute Truth.

    Only today's soceity is shaping the culture to say that Truth is Relative. The Church will stand against relativism, since it always leads to extreme forms of liberalism or facism.

    McCain 2008.

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And those facts are?

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    truth always comes from God. The physical laws were created by God. The moral laws were created by God. We can test the physical laws. We can test the moral laws. But when we try to go against the physical laws, dangerous physical consequences can occur. In the same way, when we try to go against the moral laws, dangerous consequences occur.

    As I've posted before, Regardless of where or when, society often come to the same rules: "do not murder", "do not steal", etc. How these rules are interpreted or applied might differ, but the rules, the moral rules, still exist. Why? Because of the moral laws created by God.

    As for whether it is the same as 2 + 2 = 4, it actually is. The facts are different, but the truth is still in accordance with the facts.

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Yes' but where is the absolute, all that tells me is that adultary mucks up lives that in itself does not make it "wrong" where is the absolute you talk about? What is the absolute we measure adultary to be wrong by? you have not answered that.

    Regards

    Steve

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You have a choice: you can trust the truth that adultery is bad, or you can test it out. What effects does adultery have upon the person committing it? What effects does adultery have upon the innocent party? What effects does adultery have upon trust? What effects does adultery have upon a marriage?

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Okay wb I can go out and check that, how can I check that adultary is wrong, what is my refernace point? One may feel that is true, one may feel that is not, how do I choose? Its not the same as 2+2= 4, where does the truth come from on that issue?

    Thanks

    Steve

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "what the evidence is for truth in absolutes"

    My favorite response on this is the teacher who said there are no absolutes to which the student asked "absolutely?"

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "If there is a God, and you do get to that Beulah Land you people talk about all the time, I think you'll find a God much more open to different ideas than you were here on earth."

    Do I think God won't be as uptight as people act like he is? Yep.

    Do I think God will be more open to ideas? Yes and no. See, in our case, we can't seem to follow a few simple instructions. Once we get the few simple instructions down like love your neighbor as yourself and marriage is between one man and one women then maybe He might be inclined to share with us more of who He is. Until then exactly why should He bother?

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Suppose it is dark outside where you are right now. It either is, or is not, dark outside where you are right now. How you describe it does not change the truth. How you feel about it does not change the truth. What you think about it does not change the truth. Whether you agree with it does not change the truth. It simply is true.

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Could you just remind me please wbmoore what the evidence is for truth in absolutes, don't worry about going into postmodern clap trap or Plato etc..just keep it simple.

    Thanks

    Steve

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wb, I agree wholeheartedly with your last post and I to adhere to that logic, but I would also add that even though each person has the right to believe it or not believe it, that even if one chooses not to believe it, it does not make them immune to the consequences of their non-belief.

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hlerwin

    There is plenty of information to make a decision on truth and God. It is just that you are unwilling to make a decision. By not making a decision, you make a decision.

    There is a lot of support for the existence of truth in absolutes, but you have to submit to logic and rational thinking. If you come at it from the postmodern relativistic perspective, you can claim anything is true or not true. You can claim there IS no truth. But that in and of itself is a statement of absolute, a statement of truth. This is a contradiction. Post modernism relies upon redefinition of language and one's willingness to hold contradictory information as true (A is A and not A simultaneously). Plato, Aristotle, Socrates would all be rolling in their graves if they knew what has become of their work. They were all about teaching logic and rational thinking, yet this has no place in the post modern worldview.

    I live my life based upon what God wants. He provided the Bible as a written record of who God is, what God has done, what God wants for us, and what God wants from us, and what God will do. God gets to set the rules, and determines right and wrong and truth. You are free to believe or not. This has consequences, in this life and afterwards.

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wb, from the information we humans have, there is no proof 1) that truth cannot change or 2) that there is a God. Masturbatory was perhaps the wrong word for me to use, but to live your whole life (and to judge everyone else's life) based on a collection of old writings is certainly a head game. If there is a God, and you do get to that Beulah Land you people talk about all the time, I think you'll find a God much more open to different ideas than you were here on earth.

  • Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    In the 80's Steve Taylor had a song called "Whatever Happened to Sin?". One of the lines was about politics. "Just remember when you step into your voting booth, he'll never lie, he'll just embelish the truth...."

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