Q: How much of the Bible is literal and how much of it is a myth? Take Jonah and the whale, for instance. Surely that must be a myth, because I can't imagine anyone being swallowed by a whale and then living to tell about it. - S.L.
A: It might surprise you to learn that there actually have been several documented cases of people who were swallowed by whales and lived to tell about it (although the Bible simply says that Jonah was swallowed by "a great fish," not necessarily a whale).
But the real question is this: Did the miracles recorded in the Bible actually happen - or are they simply myths or legends? The Bible's testimony is clear: They actually happened - and the reason is because God made them happen. If we leave God out of the picture and say He isn't powerful or doesn't have anything to do with the world, then there isn't any room for miracles.
But once we understand that God is all-powerful, and that He cares what happens to us, then the miracles recorded in the Bible won't be a problem for us. The Bible says, "How great you are, O Sovereign Lord! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you" (2 Samuel 7:22). The Bible's miracles were a demonstration of God's power and authority.
The greatest miracle of all, however, is the miracle of God's love for us. We aren't worthy of His love, for we have sinned and turned our backs on Him. And yet He still loves us - and the proof is that He sent His Son into the world to save us and give us eternal life. Don't be ruled by your doubts any longer, but by faith open your life to Christ's transforming power today.
Affectionately known as the “World’s Preacher” for more than 60 years, the Rev. Billy Graham is one of the most influential and respected spiritual leaders of the 20th century. He has been a friend and spiritual advisor to ten American presidents and has preached the Gospel to more people in live audiences than anyone else in history — nearly 215 million people in more than 185 countries and territories — through various meetings. Hundreds of millions more have been reached through television, video, film, and webcasts. Send your queries to "My Answer," c/o Billy Graham, Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, 1 Billy Graham Parkway, Charlotte, N.C., 28201; call 1-(877) 2-GRAHAM, or visit the Web site for the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association: www.billygraham.org.
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No tears here, Laura is the mother of Jesus too.
light, why settle for second best when you can go directly into the Throne Room of God through the shed blood of His Son, Jesus Christ.
Prophet-
We don't pray to mary. She prays for us. Now, all mothers may be mothers of God, but Mary was the mother of Jesus, who WAS God. God is not Jesus, but Jesus is God. It counts as a bonus when someone who was the mother of Jesus prays for you. Calm down, ok? No tears please ;)
prophet, we're cool and have a great Lord's Day tomorrow, believer
believer,
I see where you're coming from, and I was suspicious that that was your understanding. I was under the assumption that TLIML was talking about Christians alone, and not unbelievers. Maybe he can clarify that.
prophet, but is this talking to believers or to non-believers as well? I took light to mean that God is in every person saved or unsaved alike.
Believer,
Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
John 15:4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."
light, please explain how the one true God is in all of us and although I don't believe it is possible please cite Bible to support that, thanks believer?
Amen,
So there is no need to pray to Mary.
Well, sure she is since God is in us all, all mothers are mothers of God.
I'm not whining. I'm just stating that Lois is a mother of God too.
Prophet-
Well, Mary is the mother of God, you agreed to that and said "Well she's the mother of me then, too" I agreed to THAT... so what's your problem? Since God is in all of us Mary is the spiritual mother of us all. Stop whining and please grow up.
And why isn't anyone prayng to me? I'm a saint.
Funny. My momma's name isn't mary.....And my momma's still alive.
But I think that Mary should be in the Record Books for giving birth to the most children in the world....even after she's dead. That's a record in itself.
Prophet-
Of course she is. But she isn't the mother of me. Mary is. She is the mother of us ALL.
Yes, my wife is the mother of God too. I'm glad you agree.
Prophet-
absolutely right, Mary IS our universal mother, now you're catching on ; )
Literal? SELF DENIAL is biblical yet pastors, televangelist & christians do not DENY themselves! hypocrites
I also know of another literal part...
When Jesus says who is my mother and who are my brothers, but they who do the will of my Father. So Mary isn't the only "Mother of God". There are millions...
Well I think I'm done here ;)
I know ONE part of the bible that's literal :D Jesus said "This is my body, eat it..." and "this is my blood, drink it..." He also said "Those who do not eat the flesh of the son of God have no life." he also said "Go in my name and forgive. Those you forgive, my father forgives." he also said "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I build my church." He continued to say "Thou art Peter, and I give to thee the keys of heaven" Another part of the bible that is literal is the ten commandments. If you count/read them off, you will find that seventy percent of what God commands to us... is about WHAT we DO and how we DO it. Not how we FEEL and how we FEEL it, or what we BELIEVE and how we BELIEVE it, but what we DO!
w1, that's what concerns me about what is being propagated by some in this discussion. My sense is there is a hidden agenda that by discrediting some of God's Word as not literally being God's Word in the original autographs, it gives us free license to accept or reject as our feelings and opinions dictate. But as I've asked on several occassions if the Word of God does indeed contain myths, contradictions, and errors then when does God finally start telling the truth. To which yet I have received an answer from those who do not believe that the Bible in it's original autographs is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary, Word of God. It appears to me this issue has truly revealed both wheat and chaff in our midst.
DP, your referral to Romans 12:2 is right on target and as I shared a number of posts back, that is one of the primary roles of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer to illumine his mind to be able to not only understand God's Word but to apply it to his daily living as well.
Unfortunately, there are those who do not want Jesus to open "their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures." There is sin in the camp, and they do not want to drive it out or come out from that camp.
"It looks like you're still calling purple red and red purple."
They are both red. Purple is red with blue in it.... Sorry, just had to go there....
One major problem with software is that it doesn't run right on all computers. Some require 'patches' to work right. It's the same program but on different computers. The same can be said of the Bible. Romans 12 talks about the renewing of your mind. This is required for the program of Scripture to run right.
In the software world, a program that cannot firmly run on the OS is said to 'skate' on the OS. This means it may run but it will occasionally 'fall on the ice' if you will. This is the problem with fallen man. We try to blame the software when in fact it is our ability to run it that is the problem. This is why there are so many different variations. The accuracy of what is 'believed' is based on the level of renewal of the mind.
This is why they say with virus software to keep running it until you get a clean report. Some stuff is 2 or more levels down. I have found people are quite satisfied with the virus software I have recommended (Norton, BTW) once I have taught them how to use it correctly!
abhodim, thank you for sharing a lesson in how to read and keep the Word of God in its proper context, be blessed as you continue to serve Him, believer
Following the line of debate, I was impressed with the points raised on both sides of the issue of hermeneutics and inspiration. I would advance these points:
First, the simplest approach to any type of writing is the literal approach, whether it be mama's letter from home to the latest book on your summer read-list. They have a message that they wish to express, and over-interpreting their message may cost us the understanding of that message. Indeed, the methods of the early Alexandrian school (featuring the church father Origin) sought deeper meanings and truth than what the Scripture offered. The seeking of analogical and anagogical levels of understanding often obscured the central truth the Bible verse or section intended to express.
Second, we have to understand the extent of poetry within the Bible, Psalms, Job, Isaiah, etc. being rather poetic in their expression. Understand the message that the poet or prophet was expressing, and the richness of their poetry only enhances. The same with the parables. Jesus chose to be cryptic with those who rejected His teachings (Mt. 13: 10-17), while offering an opportunity for His followers to find a "heavening meaning in an earthly story." In such cases, an understanding of metaphor, simile, symbol, and other concepts of figurative language helps us understand Jesus' point. I am thankful He took the time to explain the parables of The Sower and The Weeds in the Wheat (found also in Mt. 13).
Finally, understand how right Dr. Graham was. "But once we understand that God is all-powerful, and that He cares what happens to us, then the miracles recorded in the Bible won't be a problem for us." Our position on God's ability to perform the miraculous affects our view of the Bible as God's inspired Word. SJ's citing his opponents as "bibliolatrous" is another strawman; no Christian worships the Book. We make no prayers to the Bible. But we revere it as the sole revealed message of God to the people of the planet. It's how it caries on from there as the Word, Law and Gospel, bad news of sin and good news of redemption in Christ, impacts each individual who takes the time to read and ponder its message.
sj, if anyone is trying to turn God into their own image it is you my friend as you continue to discount His Word and attempt to rewrite it to suit your fancy. You are now even advocating the lie that we are saved by works and not by grace if you truly believe that we are saved by obedience to the Great Commandment.
believer, your insistent question about 'when does God start finally telling the truth' is clever, like the Pharisees, but also misleading, trying to turn God into our own image. But as Isaiah reminds us, God's thoughts are not our thoughts, nor are our ways God's ways.
sj, plus please get your colors correct, it is scarlet and not red. Red is a basic color whereas scarlet is a mix of red and orange and purple is a mix of red and blue.
ifeelfine, when are you going to realize that the color of the robe is not relevant to the fact of the inerrancy of God's Word? Plus, there are several expalnations to the different colors mentioned, but the bottom line is how does the difference in colors impact the context of what was being told? And the answer is it doesn't.
Believer: It looks like you're still calling purple red and red purple.
sj, just out of curiousity, do you believe that Daniel in the Lion's Den and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abedenego being thrown in the fiery furnace actually/literally took place?
sj, as far as the account recorded in Luke there are several Bible scholars who think this was a totally different incident than the one recorded in Matthew and Mark.
sj, the traditional site of Judas's death is a field at the bottom of a cliff outside of Jerusalem.
Here's the simple truth...Love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might; and love your neighbor as yourself.
Since these two are a full time job, I tend not to focus too much on the jot and tittle. It does make for a nice diversion though!
"Law happened THREE different times"
Actually no. The reason there are 4 different Gospels is because they are written to 4 different groups of people. There is quite a bit if redundancy in the letters of Paul because they are going to different places. That doesn't change what is being said.
When I worked in prepress I would speak one way to customers and another way to other artists. There were still other ways I would communicate to the sales staff. For example, I would tell an artist that their file 8133'd. Unless you know PS code that doesn't mean much now does it. Now when it comes to the sales staff and customers...now there was more similarity. That error wouldn't apply. Another error would be 'stack overflow -image pg83. This means that there is something wrong with a picture on pg 83 and it is sending more data then the header (intro) said was suppose to be there. Now when I talk with the sales staff or normal client it becomes "there's something wrong with one of the picture files but we're fixing it". Please note that all ways of saying it are completely accurate.
There would be no point of having 4 seperate Gospels if they all contained and were worded the exact same way now would there? As I remember my Gospels and Acts class, one of the Gospels (don't ask me which one right now!) was written with gentiles in mind so 'Jewish' things had to be explained.
sj, if you keep the text in the context of what the writer was saying it is usually pretty easy to see what is a metaphor and what events actually took place. Plus, I see your still avoiding my question as to when does God finally start telling the truth?
sj, so are you saying that we are saved as a result of obeying God's Great Commandment, because God's Word says in Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift, not from works, so no one can boast." Or did Paul make a mistake here to?
Actually I suspect that you biblioaltrous contortionists will require that the story of the Summary of the Law happened THREE different times, since Jesus' words differ slightly in Matthew's and Mark's accounts, and since the lawyer said them in Luke. How silly to be distracted from the Gospel in 'explaining' the differences, since Jesus affirms them either way. Don't you see how the defense of your personal view of the Bible distracts you from Jesus' message?
believer, can you cite me one real example where someone hanged themselves from a tree and their bowels split open and their intestines spilled out? Never in my many years have I heard such a thing and if it did happen,it must be usual and I would be surprised that Matthew didn't mention it. Secondly, if the four corners spoken of by Ezekiel, Isaiah and John the Divine are just a 'metaphor' as you say (not as they said), then you are right, how do we know whether or not Daniel and the lion's den or the fiery furnace isn't just a metaphor too? You 'cafeteria' Christians just pick and choose what you want to be metaphors? As far as the way to Salvation, I think Jesus said it best, love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy mind, and your neighbor as yourself. No confusion there.
sj, every reliable translation says that he fell headlong specifically falling headlong not one said he threw himself. Webster's Dictionary defines headlong 1. as with the head first; headfirst 2. with uncontrolled speed and force. Falling with uncontrolled speed and force. This could be very easily done as a result of someone hanging themselves by jumping out of a tree and would have caused his body to literally explode which would account for his bowels or intestines falling to the ground.
o ya on the 'earth being flat' thing. Well we still use, North, South, East, and West to this day. You know the "four corners." So.......
St. John's the Bible is given to us by God. And is complete. Without error. Now i cant prove to you it is without error, but to say it is fallible yet complete because it tells of Salvation and how to be Saved is contradictory. If it is fallible, the Bible, then how to be Saved could be wrong! When we say this is right and that is wrong we open a door thats full of dangers. What if daniel never came out of the lion den alive? Or the firey funace consumed Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? What if there are those who say "i believe in the Bible but not Prophecy." Then we negate alot of Daniel, so now we have those who have torn apart one book, so lets just throw it out because it isnt important to Salvation anyways. In fact we can throw out all the Old Testament, no Adam and Eve, no Cain and Able. Noah? what do we need him for? Nor do we need Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Moses? that was 3500 years ago! Old news we just need the New Testament. Pslams and Proverbs? dont think so, besides, we dont know who really wrote them anyways. So there ya go, all we need is how to be Saved. All else is fallible. ermm if the Bible is fallible then the way to the Father must be error prone too. something to think about.
And one more thing, judas did have his guts fall out. Bible says so.
sj, we have shown you example after example to show that these passages you shared do not contradict each other and you choose to negate them as if men like Dr. Norman Geisler have not thoroughly done their homework in these matters. And then you claim to speak for Isaiah, Ezekiel, and John with regards to the four corners of the earth issue. And even there I shared a passage of Scripture from the book of Isaiah where he acknowledges the world as being round and yet you choose to discount that as well. Well it is truly apparent that you have your mind made up in this matter and there is no need for anyone to confuse you with facts or more importantly God's Word. So I close with a question I've asked several people who don't believe that the Bible in its original autographs is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary, Word of God and who profess to be Christians and I know I've asked you this already, but for whatever reason you chose not to answer so I'll ask again in closing. When it comes to the Word of God, when does God finally start telling the truth?
DP, thanks for both the support as well as the encouraging words, be blessed as you continue to serve Him, believer
Daniel Paul, why you've become a 'cafeteria Christian' picking and choosing which passages in the Bible YOU believe as written. You 'believe' both Acts and Matthew about Judas' death, even though they contradict each other, and so you distort and contort the stories to 'explain' away the obvious contradiction, and THEN you 'disbelieve' Ezekiel, Isaiah and John the Divine when they say that the earth has four corners, when they actually believed the earth did. I have no fear of Judgment Day, my friend, and I don't have to be a biblioaltrous extortionist or contortionist to get there! My faith is in God! Yours is in the fallible hands of human writers! As the Scriptures say 'to err is human' but you've made these writer superhuman! You've made idols of them, which I think is against one of the Commandments.
"You are the one distorting and contorting the Scriptures, adding things that are not there to make them say things they do not say so as to avoid any contradiction that would upset your personal views of the Bible."
I thought you didn't believe the Bible as written. Believer's position is consitant with what is taught by people like Billy Graham and hundreds of Bible college professors I have grown up around in two different countries.
But no matter, for some reason ... "I told you so" just isn't going to be enough on judgement day. Keep preaching it bro believer!
believer, I guess the question is when are you going to finally start telling the truth. You are the one distorting and contorting the Scriptures, adding things that are not there to make them say things they do not say so as to avoid any contradiction that would upset your personal views of the Bible. The Scripture do NOT mention a broken rope or a tree or a cliff or a bank (which aren't there geographically, by the way). What the Scriptures do say in one place is that Judas hanged himself (no mention of bowels splitting open, unusual for a hanging) and in another place that he threw himself down headlong, with bowels opening. It is easier to believe that one of the writers got part of the story wrong than to make up stuff to avoid the obvious contradiction. Similarly, what Ezekiel, Isaiah and John the Divine said is that there are four corners to the earth. Not surprising if you think the world is flat, and the heavens are above and Sheol is below. But again you distort the Scriptures and suggest this is just a metaphor (how do you know? what else is metaphor?), because to simply acknowledge that that writers were wrong upsets your personal view of the Bible. You avoid the 'plain sense' of the Scripture to make them say something other than what the writers meant literally. Proof of biblioaltrous extortionism and contortionism while you want to be all self-righteous about your personal view of the Bible. Have some faith for God's sake, in God, not the Bible!
moe, Christ was asking His Father to forgive them, unless they repented of their sins individually they were not forgiven. He also asked His Father to take away the need for Him to go to the Cross and God chose not to and thankfully out of His love for both His Father and us, He went all the way to the cross. Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one can come to the Father but through Me." He did not offer any alternatives to salvation, He didn't say Me or, or Me plus. Plus when it comes to opinions there is only one that matters, God's opinion which in a majority of cases can be found in His Word.
"You've made an idol of the Scriptures."
You misunderstand. I veiw the Bible as the word of God being written by God through man. If your boss leaves you a note...you'd best do what it says and not question it!
Part of worshiping God is accepting what He says. To do otherwise is to deny Him. There is more to the story I'm sure than either passage tells. After all, for him to fall headlong as Acts says would mean he dove head first. Having been to Jerusalem and to the temple site I would say he would have had to be in the air for the events to have happened as Acts says. The ground does not simply drop off at the edge of the temple.
Still, people are willing to deny the Bible without all the facts. Simply put, there are not enough facts available for us to know the course of events of Judas death. We know he went out and did himself in. That, in and of itself, is enough for me. Perhaps I'm just too simple minded. If I can tell I don't have all the facts I simply reserve judgement. (And yes, I tend to have a bit of mental exercise when others are judging without all the facts. Call it a hobby.)
Believer,
You ask, "When does God start telling the truth?" I answer thusly: He tells the truth in your heart. You can't take other people's view of what the Bible says, you have to interpret it for yourself. For example, if I were to say, "I don't think a Hindu person is going to burn in hell for all eternity because he didn't accept Jesus as his savior," You might then quote many New Testament passages that suggest otherwise.
Then I would say in Luke 23:34 while he is dying on the cross Jesus says, "Father, forgive them; they do not know what they are doing." Now in John 5:27 Jesus says of himself, "The Father has given over to him power to pass judgement because he is the Son of Man"
So, my personal conclusion is that Jesus forgave the people who did the worst thing you can do to another person, to torture and kill them. These did not accept him as their personal savior. They did the opposite. So, scripturally speaking, does it make sense that Jesus is going to torture for all eternity a nice person who didn't believe in him?
sj, you may be a cafeteria Christian when it comes to the Word of God, but fortunately for the cause of Christ there are many of us who are not. We do believe that the Bible in its original autographs is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God. And as for your statement with regards to Judas hanging himself and his intestines coming out of his body, it is very possible for that to happen as a result of someone hanging themselves either from throwing themselves from the tree and the shock causing the body to literally explode, also if the rope were to snap or the branch break it could also result especially if they were to hang themselves from a cliff or over a bank. But the bottomline is you and others like ifeelfine have a need to discount the Bible as literally being the Word of God and as a result you will do what you can to find contradictions in the Bible and when people point out that they are not contradictions, then you simple discount them. But you see the problem is this considering all of these so-called contradictions, myths, and errors in the Bible, could you please tell me when does God finally start telling the truth?
Daniel Paul, your last post wasn't there when I last wrote, you are right. Still the writer of Acts records clearly that Judas fell down headlong and his bowels burst open and his intestines spilled out (Act. 1.18). That doesn't happen when you hang yourself. So you've contorted the Scriptures to suggest that the rope must have broken, though nowhere does the Scripture say that, in fact, it says quite plainly that he hanged himself, not that he tried to hang himself and failed. You are insisting upon the very kind of bibliodaltrous extortion of the plain sense of the Scriptures that I am talking about. Your conclusion is not based upon the Scriptures but upon your personal beliefs. The Scriptures are not infallible, though I continue to affirm that they are indefectible, that they contain all things necessary to Salvation, but not that it is necessary to believe all things in them for Salvation. You've made an idol of the Scriptures. I worship God, not the Bible!
Daniel Paul, if we are honest, we are all cafeteria Christians, picking and choosing which passages we will focus on and which we demand be accepted literally. Nowadays we focus on the few verses that condemn homosexuality, while ignoring the enormous number of passages that support the institution of slavery, the subjugation of women, the prohibition of usury, the acceptance of polygamy and concubinage, or the denial that life begins at conception. Each generation picks and chooses, while all the while declaring that it isn't so!
I see St. John's missed what I posted about Judas.
I had one professor that joked "since Judas threw down the money he didn't have enough to by a good rope! The only one he could find broke." I'm sure you see the humor in this. His point is the same as mine. There is nothing in the words used in either passage to suggest he didn't hang himself in both cases.
"you are a cafeteria Christian"
I love that term! You've just added to my vocabulary....
St John's: Thank you so much for saying eloquently what I have been saying for a while on this site. Please continue to post - I find your insight relevent and thought provoking. Cheers!
Wilderness, I am not the one distorting the Scriptures. It is the bibloatrous extortionist that denies that Ezekiel, Isaiah and John the Divine meant what they said, or that Judas BOTH hanged himself and threw himself down headlong, to name but a few.
believer, do you really believe that quoting II Timothy proves anything? Do you really believe that the author, who may not even have been Paul, meant when he was writing those words books which he did not know and some of which had not even been written, and that he meant only those books? It is another perfect example of a bibloaltrous extortionist.
There are those who desperately want the bible to be twisted, to be added to and subtracted from, to contain error and contradictions. It makes justifying compromise and sin easier, and helps one create a god much more pleasant to the carnal nature.
jj, thanks for finding that, but to sj,once again considering what he says in Isaiah 40:22 this passage is no more than a figure of speech which as far as I know is still common in our day. Please show me any Scriptures where this term is used in a way to teach us that the world was either flat or square?
believer: Check out Isaiah 11:12 - four corners it is.
sj, oh and while you're at it you might want to read Isaiah 40:22, "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth ....". It sure sounds like he's saying that the earth is round to me?
sj, please cite your specific references in Isaiah and Ezekial to the four corners of the earth, thanks.
sj, so then you are a cafeteria Christian, you simply pick and choose what is and isn't the Word of God. I have shown you a very plausible way, oh and by the way Norman Geisler in his book dealing with skeptics says the same thing with regards to there being no contradiction between the story of Judas's death in Matthew or Acts. But since you are set on discrediting the Word of God as just that, you choose to ignore it. Well I'll stick with Paul who says to Timothy in II Timothy 3:16-17, "ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
Prophet, neither the Pope nor the Bible is infallible in my opinion. Thus there are numerous errors in the Scriptures and only bibliolatrous contortionists deny this with all sorts of explanations that destroy the 'plain sense reading' of the Scriptures, as evidenced by the responses below explaining that Ezekiel, Isaiah and the John the Divine didn't really mean it when they said the earth had four corners, though they did, or that Judas BOTH hanged himself and fell down headlong. No use mentioning the numerous other examples, as I am sure you have far-fetched explanations for them as well. I prefer the simpler answer that the Bible is indefectible, but is also sometimes wrong. As I said before, I worship God, not the Bible.
"that is one with a tongue sticking out for when people make bad puns!!!"
Yep...and make it the default (just so we won't know who's fault it is...).
prophet, I wish CP would add one new yellow face and that is one with a tongue sticking out for when people make bad puns!!!
sj, if someone is out to prove the Bible is not literally the Word of God they do their best to prove there are contradicitons in it as you are attempting to do right now. So let's consider your contradiction of how the death of Judas occurred. One story says he hung himself and the other says that he went headlong to his death. And you went on to say there is no feasible way that both of the accounts could be right. May I quote a passage from the book, "The Hard Sayings Of The Bible", "However, since suicide by hanging was usually accomplished by jumping out of a tree with a rope around one's neck, it was not unusual for the body to be ripped open in the process. I hesitate to say that this is exactly what happened, but it is certainly a plausible explanation." Plus, he also noted that this is still common in India today.
Remember,
The Bible isn't infallible...only the Pope is.
The word in Matthew is to strangle oneself. The word in Acts is "falling headlong" which one would have to do if one hanged himself. The words do not either confirm nor deny a difference.
Matthew was a tax-collector and seemed to have a bit of tacted about him. He said Judas went out and hung himself but didn't go into detail about all that happened during the hanging. The person who penned Acts (which most believe was Luke) seemed to be more into details. This is one case and another is when the kid fell out the window late at night while listening.
Being married to someone in the medical profession I can say with some certainty that it is good some details are spared. However, people with a medical background (such as Luke) tend to be more detailed in these matters.
Although one could say they conflict, logic leans on the side of the same. So do the words used.
"One of the writers got part of the story wrong. "
Well, here we go with culture again. For example, the Bible says to do nice things for your enemy. It will be 'heaping coals on their head'. Here's the part many don't know. Towns had a central fire to keep warm and the coals were brought inside in a container carried on the head. The more coals the warmer the house. The concept of heaping coals isn't a mean one now is it?
English is such a lousy langage. We say someone has hung himself all the time yet they still show up for work.
I think my favorite 'splice' of the Bible is "Judas went out and hung himself" "go and do likewise"!
"Much of the scriptures is written in metaphor."
We obviously have different Bibles! Mine is quite literal. One of the problems is the languages have specific word tenses we don't have in English. That which is parable is written metaphoricly.
The bottom line is either you believe it or you don't. That doesn't change it. Also, our lack of ability to understand what it simply says does not somehow make the Bible less true or somehow falible. It is we who are falible.
We think we are SO smart don't we!!! I started to see so much in the Bible when I came to the conclusion that it is right and everyone (including myself) is wrong.
The Bible is the software...garbage in...garbage out. I've found that when the 'data' conforms to Biblical specs you always, ALWAYs get the Biblical answer. This is why some of the pro-gay camp keep getting the same answer and think it's right. The beginning 'data' is practicing homosexuality instead of "how does God say I should live". If the data is tainted...the output will be tainted.
I do believe the Bible is indefectible, but not infallible, that it contains all things necessary for salvation but it is not necessary for salvation to believe all things it contains, such as that there are four corners to the earth. There are numerous errors in the Scriptures obvious to all but those who refuse to see them. For example, the naming of the Field of Blood is related to Judas' death, but in one case he hanged himself (Mt. 27:5) and in the other he fell headlong (Acts 1:18). One of the writers got part of the story wrong. Only a biblioatrous contortionist would content that both stories are right!
All the prophecies of His first coming were accomplished.
politic,
You said "Jesus did not fulfil all the expectations of the awaited messiah"
Yes He did. You need to separate the prophecies of His first coming (which talks about him coming as a beggar and being crucified) from the prophecies of His second coming (In glory and power to create His Kingdom on earth/millenial reign)
sj, but would you agree that even though God worked through fallible human beings His Word is infallible? In the case of the four corners of the earth, those writers may have very well believed that, but since that did not impact the truth God desired to relay through their writings it did not impact either the truth being taught or the inerrancy of the Scriptures.
believer, but Ezekiel and Isaiah and John the Divine meant that there were four corners to the earth in your scientific way of thinking. Still you are right, we need to approach their writings as being culturally limited and deficient. The authors were after all human. God works through fallible humans like us again and again, but our work remains fallible. Just like the Bible. To believe otherwise is biblioaltry. I worship God, not the Bible.
politic, so when does God finally start telling the truth?
sj, let's get to the heart of this issue, what is your point. I don't normally get involved in no win situations and I believe that is exactly where your trying to take us with regards to the Bible literally being the Word of God. You're trying to do this by saying that everything in the Bible must be taken literally, if not then very little of it can be taken literally, but if we take everything literally and to do so provides false data then that negates the Bible from literally being the Word of God, because God would not share false data. But the reality is not all things in the Bible are meant to be taken literally but rather in the appropriate context of it's meaning. As I said in an earlier post, it was never the intention of God or the writers to give a science lesson when they used the phrase the corners of the earth, therefore it does not matter if they were scientifically correct in their wording. Plus, God gave us a brain to use as well and when a person becomes a Christian they are indwelt by God's Holy Spirit immediately. One of His major responsibilities in the life of a believer is to illumine the Word of God in both the heart and mind of the believer so that they can better understand the Word of God and apply that knowledge to their daily living. So if your plan was to prove that the Bible in its' original autographs was not the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God you have failed in your attempt to do so and His Word is as true as ever and always will be.
St. John's:
You have a good point. We can't know. However, what is often forgot is that the Bible was written from a first century Jewish context. It was quite common to teach and write in metaphor. A lot of the NT is retelling OT stories with Jesus as the new Moses or Elisha. Whether it actually happened was possibly not really important to the writers, but rather what the story said about God and the meaning of Jesus' ministry.
Having said that there are things they may have believed literally and also found symbolic meaning within. So now they either still have some metaphorical meaning to us, or they no longer hold meaning.
Cliffe.
Gentlemen, you are avoiding the obvious. Ezekiel and Isaiah and John the Divine MEANT it when they said the earth had four corners! If we suggest it is just metaphor now, can we do the same with the miracles, the Creation story, the Resurrection? How do we know when the authors meant it as metaphor and when it is literal? You are playing a game and making up the rules as you go!
politics, there are times in the Bible when terms are used metaphorically and times when they are used literally. Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, He is also the Promised Messiah. As a former college professor who taught at a Christian college said, the Bible say what it means and means what it says, but the Bible doesn't always say what it means or mean what it says. So even though the Bible may not literally mean that Solomon and others were literally God's son that doesn't mean that Jesus was not literally God's Son because He is. And as far as Him being Messiah is concerned just because many in Israel got it wrong does not mean God got it wrong when He sent Christ to be the Promised Messiah.
Much of the scriptures is written in metaphor. "Son of God" is used metaphorically in the Old Testament to describe King Solomon and the Israelites in general. Being a son of God represented a closeness with God. Jesus is called the light of the world (but is he literally a light?). Jesus is called the lamb of God (but is he literally a lamb?). Jesus is called the Son of God...
Therefore I can honestly say that I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. He represents what it means to be close to God, or to show what it is to be divine.
Another symbol used to describe Jesus is Son of Man/messiah. However, Jesus did not fulfil all the expectations of the awaited messiah; for a start the messiah was expected to rule over Israel as King, defeat Israel's enemies and establish universal peace. Taking the predictions of a messiah literally and applying these as proof that Jesus was the messiah requires selective literalisation. However, Judaism was waiting for a messiah to reform the entire world. To Jesus' followers, Jesus represented just this. Therefore the title was awarded to him by the early Christian community.
Jesus preached the Kingdom of God which was in stark contrast to the Kingdom of Rome. Rome at the time was in power over the Jews. Rome's control over Israel was initially via the King of Israel, but after despatching of King Herod, the high priest in the temple became the liaison between Rome and the Jews. Jesus demonstrated against the Romans, riding into town on a donkey, in contrast to the procession of Caesar riding in on chariots. Entering the temple and preaching the Kingdom of God. He was killed for it.
Christ on the cross is a symbol of selfless love.
IMHO,
Cliffe
http://www.politicsapocalypse.com/religion.htm
sj, if someone tells you to take a long walk off a short pier do they literally expect you to do that or are they just telling you to either shut up or go away? It could be that at that time those people did believe the earth was flat, but they were not giving a geography lesson when they said what they did. Or they could have been simply using a figure of speech or in a way that the people of their day could easily understand.
So Gentlemen, are there four corners to the earth? That's what the Bible says, and Ezekiel and Isaiah and Revelation all meant it when they wrote it.
Another analogy: God is like a programmer. He can temporarily change the universe's code as he sees fit.
SJ, as far as God breaking His natural laws, did He create these laws for Himself or for His creation, specifically mankind. If the latter is true which I believe it is, then God is free to step outside His natural laws since they are designed for the well-being of His creation and not Himself.
The correct question is not should we take everything in the Bible literally, the correct question is this, is the Bible in it's original autographs the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary, Word of God? And the answer is yes!
St. John's
"so if God break's God's own natural laws, isn't that God going against God's self?"
Not necessarily. It depends on whether you hold that natural law is transcendent (like the laws of logic) or whether they are simply descriptions of how God controls the universe. The view that natural laws were created by God so that the universe basically runs like a large machine is more characteristic of deistic thought and borrows strongly from the materialist notion that the universe is a closed, self-contained system. Intersetingly, this is the notion of natural law put forth by the LDS Church, expounded by Orson Pratt in his polemics against Christian metaphysics. The problem is, this view makes miracles kind of difficult, logically speaking.
However, I believe a more biblical view is that what we call 'natural law' is merely the description of how God controls the universe. The Bible teaches that God is in immediate control of all aspects of the universe (not a sparrow falls apart from your heavenly Father), not a distant bystander observing the cool machine He made. God made His universe to be inhabited by humans, who are created in His image and were given the command to fill the earth and subdue it. To do this, He put them in a world that apparently operates according to recognizable patterns (my pencil falls EVERY time I drop it) with minds that could discern these patterns and learn from them. It was this believe that since the universe was created by God, and God is a God of order, not chaos, that gave rise to the belief that we could learn about the universe and form hypotheses with predictive power (the birth of modern science).
In this scheme, what we observe is God's normal, orderly way in which He 'runs the world', not a set of impersonal, transcendent laws. Therefore, miracles are not a problem for the Christian theist, as they would be for the atheist. Within the Christian worldview, God is free to do things differently for whatever reason He wishes. Miracles in Scripture are not random happenings, but are signs pointing away from themselves to a message.
Now are there parts of the Bible that are meant to be taken figuratively instead of literally? Sure. The Bible is full of different kinds of literature. There is poetry, hyperbole, figures of speech (as you point out), apocalyptic literature and other types of literature that were never meant to be taken literally (your teeth are a flock of sheep...I am the door...etc...). The discerning Bible student takes this into account as he reads Scripture.
In Christ
Sacrifyce, so if God break's God's own natural laws, isn't that God going against God's self? And when Ezekiel and Isaiah says there are four corners to the earth (Isa. 11:12, Ezek. 7:2), do we take them literally? Though we usually view that reference as metaphorical, the prophets believed it literally?
If God created the universe and its natural laws, it follows that he can suspend those laws at will.