PHOENIX (AP) — Billboards touting freedom from religion and separation of church and state are going up around the downtown Phoenix area.
The Freedom From Religion Foundation, based in Madison, Wis., paid advertising company CBS Outdoor to put up five signs around Phoenix that read Imagine No Religion. Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of Freedom From Religion, said the billboards will be in place for a month.
The group of atheists or agnostics promotes free thought and the separation of church and state. They have sponsored similar billboard campaigns in other U.S. cities and so far, Gaylor said, there has been little opposition. She doesn't anticipate any protest in Phoenix.
Religious leaders say they are seeing an increase in atheist activism.
"I don't have a problem with people expressing their points of view in public," said the Rev. Bob Mitchell, senior pastor at Central United Methodist Church of Phoenix.
"I would prefer that there was serious tolerant dialogue that might emerge from this publicity campaign because it is much needed."
State Sen. Linda Gray, a Glendale Republican, said the signs will offend those who believe in God.
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"...So Atheism, like all other false religions is a crutch. It is an opiate to calm the fear of judgment and shut the mouth of a guilty conscience. It is a lie desperately clung to by sinful minds in order to escape reality...."
Do Atheists Exist?
http://polemos.net/Do%20Atheists%20Exist.html
I may live in upper SC but I'm a Golden Gopher fan. It's the best named team in the college league. After all, most of the time they set foot on the field they get run in the ground!!!
DP, and probably a lot of them are smarting after the beating the Crimson Tide put on them last weekend, but don't feel bad since even the real Orange got upset by UCLA in overtime. Oh well it's still early in the season! :)
"nobody dared question the pope for fear of being called a heretic"
Sounds like what happened to that doctor in CA who didn't want to perform that service for those lesbians and ended up getting fined in court. DON'T QUESTION THE RIGHTS OF GAYS! YOU'LL BE BRANDED A SOCIAL HERITIC!!!
A clear and present danger to the rights of ALL Americans.
"watch football on sundays as some form of religion, but then that sort of definition is quite useless."
Maybe you don't know some of the football fans I do!!! Talk about fanatics....
vacuum-
1. a space entirely devoid of matter.
2. an enclosed space from which matter, esp. air, has been partially removed so that the matter or gas remaining in the space exerts less pressure than the atmosphere (opposed to plenum).
3. the state or degree of exhaustion in such an enclosed space.
4. a space not filled or occupied; emptiness; void: The loss left a vacuum in his heart.
Both atmosphere and vacuum are a state of physical atmospheric condition. In the same sense, athiesm is the absence of religion. Both are a state of beliefs concerning God.
Athiesm is void of God in the same sense of vacuum is void of matter. A belief concerning the existance of God which is void of God is still a religion none the less.
mike,
My point exactly. People were following a Pope, not God. Look at the atrocities committed by governments themselves...WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea....I see the government does no better than a pope. What we need is God.
to prophet
during the middle ages, the pope though he was doing god's work. result millions of people dead. and nobody dared question the pope for fear of being called a heretic - result inquisition. that is why church & state should be separate. and you can find that in the book of daniel
christians, televangelist & pastors are saying that there should be prayer in schools & the 10 commandments should be posted in gov't buildings, & christian judges should be elected in the supreme court. that is church uniting with the state.
mathetes,
Yes but this techincally only revolves around 1st amendment rights, and the case was on the premise of if inmates should be able to form a group of non-believers, just as groups already form for believers.
To equate it as a true religion would mean they also believe in all the things normally associate with religions: the supernatural, afterlife, sacred shines and the like. and this is something no belivers don't take into account for their view, it simply isn't part of it. All the main things that make regligion religious are absent, so a strict 1=1 equation isn't correct.
The court is saying inmates can form groups for such a reason, utter belief in the supernatural shouldn't be pre-requisite. and why shouldn't they be protected for the formation of a group, regardless if they believe, don't believe, or are followers of something else, like say football?
The idea behind the 1st ammendment here is that they should't be barred from forming a group, and this was denied of them, so of course its not correct.
agent,
Al talks a good game and I can see where he is coming from. If I were talking to someone over a cup of coffee, I would go with it. When we get technical, which is where this most often leads, then we have to look at the legal definition. As shown before on these forums, the courts have ruled consistently over the last 20 years: atheism is considered a religion.
Perhaps someone should make a video response and post it to Al's video.
Greetings DP,
Non believers (atheist, agnostics) isn't really adequately described as being a religion, for the simple reasons that its followers don't prescribe to many of the things that make religion what they really are. It would be like calling a group of peple who watch football on sundays as some form of religion, but then that sort of definition is quite useless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e18O7fML1Yg
"UNION of church & state is wrong & it is biblical! "
I went back quite a ways and I can't find the post your are responding to. Please elaberate. :)
I noticed in the Old Testament that things started going wrong for Israel when they insisted that they wanted a human king, instead of making God their King. I think there's something to learn from that.
UNION of church & state is wrong & it is biblical!
I agree with Prophet and Daniel Paul
John 14:6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
MEANWHILE, have American atheists manage to see their cousins the Chinese atheists behave during recent sporting events towards freedom of expression, and free thought from missionaries and protesters ?
Nothing but atheistic hypocrisy and atheistic dishonesty
"There is only one way to heaven."
... and "it's" not a religion ... He's a person.
I really don't care if atheism is a religion. I don't care how many religions there are in the world. There is only one way to heaven.
The problem is many people have their own translation of the Bible to 'support' what they beleive (like the Jehovah Witness). Perhaps in the days to come there will be a dictionary for each political position....
DP, great idea using a dictionary of all things, but the only problem is I hope our atheist friends believe in them too!! :)
Hey, believer. The problem with those who hold to anti-Christ beliefs is they hate anything to do with Christ. This would include religion. Thus, they cannot accept athiesm as a religion.
From www.dictionary.com
a·the·ism /ˈeɪθiËŒɪzÉâ„¢m/ [ey-thee-iz-uhm] –noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
re·li·gion /rɪˈlɪdÊ’Éâ„¢n/ [ri-lij-uhn] –noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
As you can see atheism is a belief system that fits several definitions of religion.
2+2=4 -or- atheism is a religion. Just consult your local dictionary... no court required.
Now, if the case was to define gay marriage as marriage then they may not have gotten the ruling they wanted based on law and precident. The case did not ask the court to justify gay marriage in any way...only to determine if the ban as written was constitutional.
"Then I guess gay marriage is okay too since CA courts said so"
The original arguement was about athiesm being a religion. Some said yes. Others said no. For First Amendment purposes the court has said it is a religion.
Now for the gay part. The court has not defined gay relationships as marriage. They simply said the ban was not constitutional. Gays are getting married in CA because the court said the ban was not constitutional and not because there is a ruling saying gay marriage is OK. The court has NOT ruled that for the purposes of marriage that gay is OK.
Nice try though.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say believer.
DanPaul: Then I guess gay marriage is okay too since CA courts said so. I'm glad I know where you stand on the issues = "The courts say it, it must be right." Of course you are wrong on this - the court was talking about SH not atheism.
Tom Baker...the best marshwiggle ever! Now...Colin Baker is a whole different story.
As for Torchwood, I think the right question is if there is anyone straight on the program....
Maybe if we just put Doctor Who billboards up it would solve the problem....
Why thank you Steve. My wife saved a button on her facebook that says "I have a doctor. He has a bluebox that's bigger on the inside."
One of my favorite experiences is a visit to a castle about 30 minutes outside of London (had to go down to the lowest level of the Underground to catch the right train). It had a pencemaze. Ah...the simple things in life.
" So, now we're down to an appeals court ruling SH is a religion."
The case on the appeals level was concerning athiesm. The ruling was based on the humanism case and using it as the basis of protecting the athiests rights. In short, it used the humanism case of '61 and rested the athiesm case on it, thus expanding the application to include athiesm on the same basis. No matter how you slice it, athiesm has been deemed a religion by the federal courts.
...athiesm is a religion.
You have my respect DP, you know the real term for a pickled geurkin and you know who Tom Baker is, RESPECT to you. As for Torchwood, are you saying there are gay people in it, I'm shocked...
Steve
jj, without atheism and evolution secular humanism is dead, so you can't have secular humanism without atheism which is the religion of secular humanism.
Daniel Paul: How about you read what I wrote before you comment on it? Secular humanism (SH) isn't the same as atheism. While atheism is a central tenent of SH, they're not interchangable. So, now we're down to an appeals court ruling SH is a religion. Not at all the same as what you said.
"Brian Fahling, senior trial attorney for the American Family Association Center for Law & Policy, called the court's ruling "a sort of Alice in Wonderland jurisprudence."
"Up is down, and atheism, the antithesis of religion, is religion," said Fahling.
The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described "secular humanism" as a religion."
They based the ruling on the Torcaso v. Watkins Supreme Court ruling extending it to include atheism. The original case was in 1961 and not the early 80's. I sit corrected. :-)
""Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being," the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said. "
Daniel Paul - I understand how the law works but you said Supreme Court. SCOTUS is not "federal appeals court."
They were talking about secular humanism anyways. That might have some semblance of religion but it isn't atheism. Atheism is no more a religion than you not believing in Greek mythology is a religion.
"No Dr Who in 09"
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm better now. Actually, I like them all. Our tele is so filled with mindless dribble (much like our politics). One of the reasons I enjoy The Doctor so much is that I don't always see what's coming and they tie things in as they go along through the season (you have to keep up).
If I had to pick I'd say the one with Sara Jane simply because I also watched Tom Baker as The Doctor. We can even get disk at the library with Petwee and Peter Troughton in the part.
Lately though I have wondered if there are any actors at the BBC that are straight.... :-0 I guess they will be going full board with Torchwood.
"Try again. That was a federal appeals court."
The ruling was never overturned and is accepted as precedent on the federal level. That's just the way the law works. The burden now is for someone to get a ruling that says it's not a religion but I doubt anyone would get the ruling overturned.
No Dr Who in 09, but there will be three specials starting with Cristmas 08. DP, my favourite of this series was the "turn left" one which considered what would occur if Donna (so sorry for your loss...) and the Doctor never met, whats yours? My fave ever is the one with the weeping angles, "what ever you do don't blink..." Though the "lonely child" (am I your mummy) comes close.
BW
Steve
Daniel Paul: Try again. That was a federal appeals court.
...and yes...I do enjoy bloging with those with opposing views. This site would be quite boring without them!
It's also good to blog with someone who knows the difference between a wally and a walleye. When's the new season of Doctor Who suppose to start, Steve?
"that they are not advertisers"
Actually, I use to work in the printing business which printed the sides of tractor-trailers and other small stuff. That's why I caught the 'words don't make their point' problem.
But ya...I got out of that and into special needs advocate stuff in the public schools. Out of the frying pan....
Found it... http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45874
"The court decided the inmate's First Amendment rights were violated because the prison refused to allow him to create a study group for atheists."
The case was brought because the prison wouldn't let an atheist form a study group for the atheists in the prison. Atheism was determined to be a religion which provided 1st Amendment protections.
"Supreme Court ruled atheism is a religion. Cite the case."
I'll go and hunt it. Let's see who can find it first. I do know it was in the late 70s early 80's.
A point or two about billboards.
To all the ladies and gentlemen who post on CP and who are in the habit of commuting to work. In a given five mile stretch of highway that you frequent:
1). How many billboards line the way in this given stretch of road?
2). Can you name the products being offered (in order would be nice, but not necessary)?
3) Do you know the specific placement of favorites (I know the placement of the one that gives the churches of our community, and a few pro-life billboards)?
4) Why would they be your favorites?
5) If a billboard catches your attention, why would it do so?
6) Even if it gains your attention, does it mean you will buy the product?
I tend to blot out what billboards are posting (even the modern ones that change their messagges after a ten-second span). What will gain my trust is the quality of the product. The Freedom From Religion Foundation headquarters in my state, and few are trult impressed with their offerings. If they wish to succeed, they should enter the arena of ideas and see how they would fare. Whatever you might think of scitsonga or steveh, you have to admire their openness. Same with DP and believer. Thank God (if you're so inclined) that they are not advertisers.
Oy! Billboards now!!!
What is it really that the atheists are hawking? Whatever it is, it didn't sell in the days of Celsus and Porphyry, didn't make it in the times of Voltaire and Nietzsche, and is reduced to pure marketing strategy in the era of Dawkins and Hutchins.
scitsonga, my prayer for you is that you never relate to a religion or even religion, but that one day you'll be related to God through Jesus Christ, His Son, take care and have a good weekend.
Daniel Paul: You stated that the Supreme Court ruled atheism is a religion. Cite the case.
believer,Prophet, Daniel Paul: for me its really simple, as an agnostic I am saying I dont know, I have no way of knowing whether there was/is a god/creator. I really have no interest in religion, although I am very interested in the politics of religion and its influence on society and the impact the religion of others might have on my personal liberties. My impression is that you are all well meaning, and I am happy for you that your religion perhaps brings hope, joy and meaning to your lives. Religion really does nothing for me. Perhaps its my back ground in science, perhaps its my genetic make-up, I do not and it seems cannot relate to religion.
Chimpanzee, the truth insults sometimes.
Psa 53:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
Rom 1:19-22 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (21) For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (22) Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
scitsonga, the problem with hell as little to do with the fire and brimstone, but much more to do with the complete absence of God's presence and His attributes, no peace, no joy, no love, no contentment, and worse of all no hope that will ever change. That is what our world would be like if there were no God. Like you I wish there were no religion, but rather only all the people of the world in a personal relationship with God through His Son, Jesus Christ. Imagine for a moment what our would would be like if everybody wholeheartedly loved God and each other. To me our world would be one awesome place to live and grow. And by the way that is what heaven will be like for all those who put their faith/trust in God through Jesus Christ alone and that opportunity is open to anyone who will.
"Imagine No Religion". I did that. I saw a world full of sexual perversion, debauchery, anarchy, murder, etc, etc....
Made me shudder. Thank God for Christianity that is the last deterent from such a world.
"I have no religion"
I fully understand what you are saying. Many people think they have no religion because they are not part of an organized religious belief system such as Christianity or atheism. Still, everyone has religious beliefs even if they don't line up with an organized group such as the atheists that put up the billboard.
It would be the same thing as the Southern Baptists putting up a billboard that said the same thing. Although I could agree with the statement most people just wouldn't understand!
What do you believe about God? Does He exist? The answer to that simple question which everyone has one even if it's "I don't know" has religion because that's what they believe about God.
I just think that even from an athiest point of view the billboard throws out the baby with the bath water.
Just out of interest CP would not let me post this first time around until I removed Mr Van Dykes first name...LOL
Spot on me old mucker, gord bless you me old mucker, its a right old pea souper in London town tonight (stereotypre curtesy of D van Dyke....
Have you caught Spooks or Life On Mars on the BBC at all.
Daniel Paul ""Imagine No Religion", Don't have to. It's called Communism.... "
my only point is not having religion does not translate into being a communist. I have no religion and I am a capitalist. I'm just correcting your erroneous generalization.
Hey Steve...good to hear from you. I think some of the confusion is that we don't speak English over here...we speak American! Being from across the pond you can appriciate that when we say we speak English here in America... you Brit's go "ya, right!".
"leaning towards communistic ideologies that also happens to be Christian"
Now, with what I said about religion in mind, the father of Communism was actually quoted as saying that communism is based on the correct interpretation and implementation of the US Constitution!
Christianity believes that all we have belongs to God to be used for His glory in helping others in need.
Communism is Satans cheap knock-off which says all we ahve belongs to the 'State' and there is no God.
Religion is man's attempt to replace the relationship with God with 'god like' stuff such as tradition and doctrine which is based on a misinterpretation of scripture. An example of that would be all the churches that are trying to say that gay is OK when it's stated as wrong from cover to cover in the Bible. That's just religion.
I explained it down lower. In our country atheism is a religion and has been defined as such by the US Supreme Court.
No religion would eliminate atheism as well. Society void of religion is Communism. There is a difference. The point the billboards are trying to make is to remove God and not religion as we define religion here in the USA. Yet, they say "Imagine No Religion". In our country, even humanism has been defined as a religion.
Religion in the USA is a set of beliefs concerning God. Believe in God or not it is still your belief concerning God and thus 'your religious view'.
Now, with that said, Jesus was not fond of 'religion' as it was more about the doctrine than the relationship with God. So, from that point of view, beliefs in God which are not based on a personal relationship with Christ is mearly religion.
In short, the billboards do not reflect atheism but rather communism. They need to be rewritten.
Daniel Paul ""Imagine No Religion",Don't have to. It's called Communism...."
Hmmmm, I have a number of friends that would laugh at your comment- they are basically athiestic capitalists, not a communist bone in their bodies. I also have a friend that would be best described as leaning towards communistic ideologies that also happens to be Christian.
DP
I'm not sure that "all" people who don't entertain the idea of religion in their life are communists, where you per chance using hyperboyle (it was good enough for our Lord to use) to make your point?
Kind regards
Steve
"representative of The Ministry of Truth will collect you shortly"
I live up here in the mountains of SC. Good luck to them getting past the red-necks! We have had a problem with gangs wanting to move into our area. The problem is both major gangs found something that does scare them...red-necks! LOL
Daniel Paul,
Tsk, tsk. Such dissident, poisonous thought.
Please remain where you are. A friendly representative of The Ministry of Truth will collect you shortly for re-education.
""America is still a great place, where even fools can tout their folly freely."
Another insult to 30 million Americans."
Atheists routinely call Christians fools. You called us thugs. Obviously, atheists still think they are the only one's who can have an opinion and express it.
Now, with that said... you can see from my post that the billboard is not accurate in it's verbage. They are an insult to anyone who holds to the US Constitution and the firm belief in freedom of religion. Just how many capitalist American's did they insult?
"American biology teachers could do their jobs without fear of harassment and threats from uneducated Christian thugs"
So...what about the teacher who was asked a question and got fired for it because it was a Christian answer. This happened at a 'free thinking' University. The story was right here on CP. Sounds like it's the evolutionists that are the thugs.
"You just insulted 30 million American capitalists "
religion "1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."
atheism "1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings."
The Supreme Court has already made the determiniation that atheism is a religion. Based on the definition you can see why. These billboards, by definition, are even against atheism.
Communism is a form of government set up to be void of religion. It makes politics its religion if you will. In short, communism is political atheism and not what we call atheism here in the USA.
The difference is simple. What atheist here in the USA would deny the right of someone to be a Christian? Everyone is free to believe what they want. In a system void of religion, Christians and even atheists (depending on the politics) would be persecuted.
Steveh20- I think you are right. Those who do have a deep belife in God proberly wont get offend. The Bible tells us that these events will be happening in the end times.
"five signs around Phoenix that read Imagine No Religion."
I saw a picture of one of those signs. It showed the World Trade Center, both towers still standing in a world without religion. 3,000 people who were murdered for God on 9/11 would still be alive today in a world without religion.
In a world without religion American biology teachers could do their jobs without fear of harassment and threats from uneducated Christian thugs.
I could go on forever, but you get the idea.
"America is still a great place, where even fools can tout their folly freely."
Another insult to 30 million Americans.
"Imagine No Religion" Don't have to. It's called Communism....
You just insulted 30 million American capitalists who don't have any supernatural beliefs.
We are free to believe in God, we are free to believe in Satan.
We are also free to think that neither exist.
God designed it that way.
We have a choice, so does God.
dongard, you're right there will be no atheists at the Great White Throne Judgement because at that point they will realize there is indeed a God. And in fact God's Word says there will come a day when every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. The problem is for many it will be too late. So you can joke and tease all you want, but God's and my desire to is that you will come to know Him through His Son, Jesus Christ before it is everlastingly too late. My prayer is that God will reveal Himself to you in such a way there will be no doubt in your mind that there is a God and He indeed is the God of the Bible. And as a result you will ask Him into your life as Savior and Lord.
"not enough evidence god quite"
As a parent my children don't like the 'wait until we get home'. Guess what. They might not believe me at the time but they do when we get home.
You don't have to believe what the Father has said. You will when we get home....
"Imagine No Religion"
Don't have to. It's called Communism....
dmorcats77
imagine standing before the Great White Throne judgment (Revelation 20) as an atheist.
no problem here, not enough evidence god quite simply a really poor and disorganized presentation. by what standards can your worship claim any rights to my inspection when you can not or will not display clear and convincing proof of your own existence. i move that this court is incompetent and demand an appeal to a competent court.
and who are you to say that there is not a more competent court. what proof do you have that your god is the final authority. would you accept that a small town jop in georgia could execute you for a parking ticket. even accepting that the christian god exists who know how many other deities it has to answer too.
muggleborn
even better george aka god said i've given you all you need, you take it from here. and so we will. switching now to internal power, pull the tower away and set the clocks. thanks god we've got the con.
America is still a great place, where even fools can tout their folly freely. I wonder how well they're promoting their free thought, if they don't even dare to consider that an Intelligent Designer put it all together; their thought is only free enough to repeat what evolutionists have been telling them for decades, "you come from a rock". Maybe that's why they seem to think like one!
steveh20.
>> I don't think those who have a deep belief in God will be offended at all, only those whose belief is shallow, like a house built on sand. <<
That's a good point. The only offense I could foresee is if a religious group were barred from renting billboard space of their own ...
"Think God"
Nice little catchy phrase that George Burns left us.
There have been enemies of Christ and " His " Church since the beginning of time. Those who truly believe will continue to believe, and those who do not believe will continue to dis-believe.
That is their right. One day soon Jesus will come and set every matter straight.
Imagine, huh? Well, imagine standing before the Great White Throne judgment (Revelation 20) as an atheist.
I don't think those who have a deep belief in God will be offended at all, only those whose belief is shallow, like a house built on sand......