ST. PAUL, Minn. - John McCain's running mate, Sarah Palin, said Monday her 17-year-old unmarried daughter is five months pregnant, an announcement stealing even more thunder from McCain and a Republican presidential convention already overshadowed by Hurricane Gustav.
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(Photo: AP Images / Mary Altaffer, File)In this Aug. 29, 2008 file photo, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin comes off the stage to greet the crowd after appearing with Republican presidential candidate, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., not in photo, during the 'Road to the Convention Rally,' in Dayton, Ohio. With her are her children Bristol, left, holding Trig, and Willow, center. John McCain's running mate Sarah Palin said Monday that her 17-year-old unmarried daughter, Bristol, is five months pregnant, an announcement aimed at rebutting Internet rumors that Palin's youngest son, born in April, was actually her daughter's.
Adding to the day's drama, McCain aides said the announcement was aimed at rebutting Internet rumors that Palin's youngest son, born in April, was actually her daughter's.
The national convention, which a political party counts on to send its candidate surging into the fall campaign, already had been relegated to a distant second to the hurricane on TV, in newspapers and on Internet Web sites.
Monday's statement, attributed to Sarah and Todd Palin and released by the campaign, said that Bristol Palin would keep her baby and marry the child's father, identified only as a young man named Levi. The baby is due in late December.
"Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. We're proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents," Sarah and Todd Palin said in their brief statement.
The disclosure came on the opening day of the Republican National Convention, which has been scaled back because of Hurricane Gustav, and three days after McCain named Palin as his vice presidential running mate. Coming after the randomness of Gustav, the revelation added to the sense of unscriptedness that is hanging over the convention.
"Life happens," said McCain adviser Steve Schmidt.
"An American family," added colleague Mark Salter.
Palin told McCain's team about the pregnancy during lengthy discussions about her background, and the senator knew about it when he made her his surprise pick Friday, aides said. At several points during the discussions, McCain's team warned Palin that the scrutiny into her private life would be intense and that there was nothing she could do to prepare for it.
Prominent religious conservatives, many of whom have been lukewarm toward McCain's candidacy, predicted that the announcement would not diminish conservative Christian enthusiasm for the vice presidential hopeful, a staunch abortion opponent. In fact, there was talk that it might help.
The convention opened on time, though shortened out of concern that the party did not want to be seen whooping it up in St. Paul while thousands of Americans along the Gulf Coast were being threatened by the hurricane. From the convention podium, GOP officials asked delegates to take out their cell phones and text-message contributions to help in the relief effort.
McCain's wife, Cindy, and first lady Laura Bush were making their own appeals for relief help in the convention hall later in the day.
The delegates took up the party platform and other business, but most of the opening-day speeches — all of which had been expected to acclaim McCain and assail Democratic opponent Barack Obama — were scrapped.
Palin, the first-term Alaska governor, was in Minnesota preparing for her Wednesday night nomination acceptance speech when the campaign issued the statement from her and her husband; her family was home in Alaska.
"Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family," the parents said. Continue >>
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"Almost all the gays that post on CP are Catholic and are trusting in their infantile baptism and confirmation that had them confessing a belief in a God that never drew them to Jesus convicting them of their sins, their need for a Savior, and that Savior was Jesus Christ. "
Who cares about people on CP Star, look at some of the biggest christian gays like Haggard or Craig.
chicago, great and meaningful thoughts to make a great Lord's Day even better, be blessed my brother, believer
Believer and Star: I'm sure this was a trial for Palin and I do appreciate the fact that she acknowledged the struggles that her family has had. If she and McCain get elected, I feel encouraged that she will be on the forefront of advocated for individuals with disabilities (a population I serve in the state of Illinois).
You know, the fact that we humans have a God-given ability to bring about so much goodness when affliction occurs is what attracts me to Christianity; the theme of death-and-resurrection that continually plays a role in our lives; that solidarity with the crucified and risen Christ. (I think it's important for me to verbalize it ever so often.)
Believer: thanks for understanding.
chicago24
Excerpts from www.adn.com/626/story/382864.html
Palins' child diagnosed with Down syndrome (04/22/08)
FAMILY FEELS BLESSED: Back at work already, governor says she wasn't in labor in Texas.
By LISA DEMER
ldemer@adn.com
Published: April 22nd, 2008 01:11 AM
Last Modified: April 22nd, 2008 07:49 PM
Gov. Sarah Palin was back at work Monday in Anchorage, holding a meeting on the proposed natural gas pipeline three days after giving birth to her fifth child.
She and her husband, Todd, showed their new baby, Trig Paxson Van Palin, to a few reporters and photographers and answered questions about his condition and the sooner-than-expected delivery.
Trig has Down syndrome, a genetic abnormality that affects a child's intellectual and physical development, the governor confirmed.
"When we first heard, it was kind of confusing," Palin, 44, said. She called the revelation "very, very challenging" and said she initially felt sad.
But the family has worked through that. Palin said she and Todd feel blessed and chosen by God. With a big family including four older kids, grandparents, aunts and uncles, Palin said, they will have lots of support for what's ahead. In their eyes, she said, "he's absolutely perfect."
The oldest Palin kid, Track, is in the Army and texted his mother after learning the news with something to the effect of "This is just so cool -- I finally got my brother."
In a letter she e-mailed to relatives and close friends Friday after giving birth, Palin wrote, "Many people will express sympathy, but you don't want or need that, because Trig will be a joy. You will have to trust me on this." She wrote it in the voice of and signed it as "Trig's Creator, Your Heavenly Father."
"Children are the most precious and promising ingredient in this mixed-up world you live in down there on Earth. Trig is no different, except he has one extra chromosome," Palin wrote.
As for people who think a baby like Trig shouldn't even be born, look around, the governor wrote. Who is perfect or even normal?
Palin said she won't take maternity leave but will go with Trig to doctor's visits, physical therapy, whatever he needs. She's breast feeding and plans to bring Trig to work with her, just as she did with Piper.
"It just feels like he fits perfectly," Palin said. "He is supposed to be here with us."
pvlman, I've heard Dr. Dobson numerous times thank parents who were encouraging their teens during difficult circumstances such as unplanned pregnancies. But it amazes me how many parents encourage their daughters to get an abortion even though the daughter would prefer keeping the child and possibly put the child up for adoption.
chicago, my apology for assuming and to be honest it did sound out of character for you, but I would say she did struggle some with that issue, but perhaps not as much as a person who is not as committed to pro-life views as she is. Thanks for your gracious response.
Why didn't Dobson commend ALL parents who support their pregnant teen daughters or is such commendation reserved for Republican candidates? Yes it's great that Sarah Palin is able to take her take here son to work and care for him. She is lucky to be able to do so. How soon will Christians, be pressuring corporations to put the means in place so more, working mothers can do the same? Again ALL mothers just not those who are at the executive or management levels. Of course Christians who are not Catholic, have to find problems with Catholics. They have to jusify to themselves the liberal act of those split from the Catholic faith. The word liberal used here in it's true meaning, not in the perjorative manner too many use it in.
Believer: I would have never implied that she kept her child to be politically correct. What I meant was that she already had a pro-life stance and would have never considered aborting her baby in the first place.
The Republicans have jumped on the bandwagon, implying that she may have battled with the choice once she learned the child had Down syndrome.
She obviously never considered abortion as an option.
I was criticizing the Republican pundits; not her.
chicago, I know we disagree on several issues, but that was really a low blow to suggest she kept her son Trig in order to be politically correct. Totally uncool.
DP, I said a prayer for your son and his unit, so drive safe and look forward to hearing from you soon, be blessed as you continue to serve Him.
Just FYI, my son got deployed yesterday so I'll be headed out to pick up his car. I know just how much you'll miss me Ifeelfine72 and others but...you'll just have to get along without me for a few days. :D
I understand Kansas has two elevations...flat and flater.
I might get a chance to post in the morning. Later!
Does anyone actually think that Palin ever considered, for one moment, having an abortion when she learned that her baby had Down syndrome?
No way! Her anti-abortion stance well-known. This was a no-brainer for her and hardly meritorious on her part.
I think it's pretty pitiful the way the Republicans are spinning this in order to garner the evangelical vote.
ifeelfine72 - Below are some excerpts from a news article detailing the level of involvment Mrs Palin has with her children.
Gov. Mom
The Land of the Midnight Sun's New Claim To Fame: Being Led by a 24-Hour Mother
Excerpts taken from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/01/AR2008090102998.html
The facts of life for Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin are fascinating and seem, frankly, exhausting. Her children range in age from 18 years to 4 months. Track, the oldest, recently enlisted in the Army and is headed for Iraq. Daughter Willow, 14, is in high school, and Piper is 7. The baby, Trig, was born in April with Down syndrome.
Palin has carefully portrayed herself throughout her career as someone committed to both family and profession -- and tough enough to handle both. She made a show of dismissing the chef at the governor's mansion saying she wanted to do her own cooking, and that the kids were old enough to make their own sandwiches. And no one can recall her ever having a full-time babysitter.
"You walk into her office and Piper is sitting there, the baby is in the crib -- that's just the way it is. This is how she lives her life. Someone who was in a meeting with her recently said she was discreetly nursing Trig," said Palin's biographer Kaylene Johnson.
From interviews with those closest to Palin emerges a description of a hectic lifestyle, but one in which the hominess and rural community of Alaska have enabled her to have her kids around her while she works and have offered a deep bench of family and friends for child-care support. She has shown up to meetings and news conferences carrying Trig in a baby pouch.
She and her husband kept their family house in the small town of Wasilla, where her parents, three siblings and closest friends live. Most of the year, she is able to commute back and forth from Anchorage daily, except when the legislature is in session in Juneau. Todd Palin is currently on leave from his job as an oil field worker, making it possible for him to be a full-time dad, said two friends. Sarah Palin's mother said ...that Palin's two youngest girls, Willow and Piper, attended school in Juneau for the second semester last year when the legislature was in session to be near their mother. The baby was also with Palin.
Trig Paxton Van Palin could end up being the best-traveled infant in America. Campaign sources said that the baby would be with his mother a good part of the time, and that arrangements are being made to have a babysitter travel with them. Confirms grandmother Sally Heath, "I can't imagine she would leave him behind."
Governor Palin still has an active role in her family's life. She takes her baby to work with her. She has Trig with her in her business meetings, changes his diapers in her office, and etc. The kids come in and out of the office during the day. Their drawings are under the glass top of her desk and etc. She let go the chef hired by the state to cook for the Governor's family and cooks for her family herself.
ifeelfine, the exception is she is presently the Governor of Alaska and from the articles I've read she and her husband are doing a good job in balancing both her role as a Mom and as Governor. She is very involved in the life of her children and even when she was presented with the option of aborting her son Trig because he has downs syndrome she and her family opted to keep the child. Sounds like a pretty good Mom to me.
ifeelfine, I didn't call him a name I just called him a hypocrite, color me confused. Plus how would you know if the husbands of the women he interviewed were stay at home Dads? You're grasping for straws here and there coming up short. Plus would calling Republicans, Repuglicans not be considered name-calling?
believer: I didn't call him names. I called out his hypocrisy. And yes, it is hypocrisy. Those exceptions were few and usually involved a stay at home dad. She is not choosing to stay at home during their formative years. . . what exception does she fall under? The one for repuglicans?
ifeelfine, oh and by the way over the years he's had many women on his Focus on the Family broadcasts who were not stay at home Moms.
ifeelfine, he's a speaker not a preacher and even though he believes the best option is that mothers stay home to be with their children especially during their formative years, he also acknowledges that there are exceptions to the rule. So how does that make him a hypocrite? Before you start name-calling you might want to do your homework.
Of course Dobson is still a hypocrite as he's preached for 30 years that women should stay at home with the kids . . . I haven't heard a peep out of him on that particular subject this time around. It just shows he's more interested in Repuglican politics - no surprises there.
"The problem with Catholisism is that to some degree..."
Hey...the church I go to is Baptist... :)
When I lived in the Philippines they were mostly Catholic. I can tell you there is a bit of difference between their Catholic and what we have here in the USA. Just personal observation.
Yes, believer, absolutely!
star2, Matthew 6:7 is a verse he should take literally wouldn't you say! :)
tallguy, Hebrews 10:10, "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Also, I Peter 3:18, "For Christ also died for sins once for all...." Other verses are Hebrews 7:27, "He doesn't need to offer sacrifices every day as high priests do, first for their own sins, then for those of the people. He did it once for all when He offered Himself." also 9:12, and 9:28.
Tallguy1000 said, "There is no problem with Catholicism." [End quote]
Cubans Prepare Centenary of Patron (Zenit.org): "Our Lady of Cobre is the Mother of all Cubans, they add, and a 'beacon of hope and the promise of a better future.'" [End quote]
Yes, we do have a problem, when multitudes are being so sadly misdirected to one who has no such heavenly power. May our Cuban neighbors come out of such deception and receive the following truths:
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;" --1Ti 1:1
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" --Tit 2:13
Jesus said "Who is my mother, or my brothers, but they that do the will of my Father."
You do the will of our Father so you must be Jesus' mother, and since the Catholic believe that the mother of Jesus also bears the title of Mother of God, then that means you.
tallguy, because it doesn't, as Paul says we do this in rememberance of what Christ did for us on Calvary and Christ said the very same thing on the night He instituted the Lord's Supper. But more importantly in Romans 6:10 it says, "For in that He died, He died to sin ONCE for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God." What you believe is that every time you celebrate the Lord's Supper you are actually recrucifying Christ if the bread literally becomes His body and is broken again and if you believe that the wine literally becomes the blood of Christ is shed once more. This practice and belief is totally contrary to the Word of God. The Lord's Supper is a symbolic remembrance of the Crucifixion of Christ which needs to be done in a worthy and holy manner.
Tallguy
Pray the rosary? Why? Do you not take Jesus' words seriously? Are they not literal?
Matthew 6:7 - "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
Prophet - A mother of God? How is that?
Star,
Do you know that according to Catholic beliefs that you are a mother of God?
More scriptures on crucifying the flesh:
Galatians 2:20 - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Galatians 5:24 - "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Galatians 6:14 - "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."
Susan is a mother of God, too.
Romans 12:1
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."
Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Galatians 524
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
So have you crucified yourself yet?
Prophet: where in the word does it say we are to crucify ourselves?
believer: It is the Spirit that gives life. The flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
All the way through this passage of John Ch 6 Jesus is saying this is My flesh. Notice the word My. Later on He says "the" flesh. This refers to our earthly flesh which truly is of no avail. Spirit and life.... Jesus tells us that what he said about the Bread of Life is by the revelation of the Spirit.
Does this shock you? --- Jesus was clearly speaking literally. What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending? If you can believe in the ascension, why can't you believe that this bread and wine truly become His body?
Paul Daniel:
The problem with Catholisism is that to some degree...
There is no problem with Catholicism. You're right though, some people do go off course and I agree, this has to be corrected from time to time. Amen!
God bless all of you.... <><...
Tallguy,
Have you crucified yourself lately?
Tallguy, Jesus declared that those words were not to be taken literally when He wnet on to say in vs.63, "the Spirit is the one who gives life. The flesh doesn't help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." His words totally rule out the physical and literal meaning of the words. And even Augustine at the end of the 4th century said,"it is therefore a figure bidding us communicate in the sufferings of our Lord, and secretly and profitably treasure in our hearts the fact that His flesh was crucified and pierced for us." He also said, "Crede et manducasti, Believe, and thou hast eaten.
Just scratch the previous post. I'll try to delete it later!
Hey, Tx... I consider this place to be an open discussion so I don't take much personally! Still, thanks.
The problem with Catholisism is that to some degree it's like saying you're Baptist. There is the core belief and then many preists go out on their own on some things...thus the Vatican has to do some internal correction from time to time.
Still, John 6:53-54 translates the word 'eat'. However, the greek word is used both literally and figuratively. It is used for both.
John 6:35 says "...and he who believes in Me shall never thirst". So, if this isn't figurative then if you get thirsty then you're not a believer.
Also, the word that is translated 'is' is strongs greek #2076 where the usage of the word is defined as "(that) is (to say). This is a figurative sense of the word. The word for a literal use of 'is' is a different greek word. This is the 'is' where Jesus says "this is my body".
Sorry about that. I tried to delete and repost as well as flag it but the controls aren't working.
Messages that contain flames, profanity or personal attacks may be edited or removed from the forum and your access to the forum may be Hey, Tx... I consider this place to be an open discussion so I don't take much personally! Still, thanks.
The problem with Catholisism is that to some degree it's like saying you're Baptist. There is the core belief and then many preists go out on their own on some things...thus the Vatican has to do some internal correction from time to time.
Still, John 6:53-54 translates the word 'eat'. However, the greek word is used both literally and figuratively. It is used for both.
John 6:35 says "...and he who believes in Me shall never thirst". So, if this isn't figurative then if you get thirsty then you're not a believer.
Also, the word that is translated 'is' is strongs greek #2076 where the usage of the word is defined as "(that) is (to say). This is a figurative sense of the word. The word for a literal use of 'is' is a different greek word.
Paul Daniel, I say this in kindness, but you really don't know what you are talking about. Please stop proclaming what I believe as a Catholic until you truly have the facts! You have never taken the time to truly research your claims. This would be like you trying to explain nuclear physics to us by what you've "heard". Sorry, I'd rather hear it from someone who works in th nuclear industry.
Quit spreading rumors about the Holy Catholic Church. You're only repeating what you've "heard". You've NEVER researched.
Soooooo.... I'm reading through your answer to Mike's question about the Gospel of John Chapter 6.../
"Unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you shall not have life within you."
I've checked various versions, yet I fail to see the word "symbol" anywhere. Where does it say that salvation is in Holy Communion? Stick to the word!
In fact, Christ's words were too difficult and the majority thought he was nuts,... they choose to walk away. Did Jesus stop them? Did He say he was just kidding... fellows I wasn't serious, I'm only speaking symbolicaly? No, he let them leave! He asked the others if they want to leave too.
So I guess you're right Danile Paul, looks like you ARE in good company!
I remain in Christ...<><...
"we're fine without your stupid opinions!"
My, my. Sounds rather fundamentalist if you ask me....
Here's the problem tall guy... most issues here end up being between the position of the Gospel and the position of the world. The Gospel is die to self and live for Christ. It doesn't take long before one of the Catholics here brings up a question to which we give the Gospel's response as did happen in this case.
Catholics teach confession not conversion. Many Catholics believe all they have to do is say 20 Hail-Mary's and stuff and it's OK. They can do whatever again and just come back for more Hail-Mary's. The Bible says to Jesus paid the price for sin's. He bought us with a price. We are His now (no Hail-Mary's involved). It's all His doing and not ours.
I happened to be raised in a mostly Catholic town. In fact, the Bible college bought their new campus from the Jesuit Preists. So, I do know a bit about it. In fact, many Catholics are taught from a young age to think 'born again' Christians are stupid so I do understand where your comment is coming from.
As for me, I believe all people are equally lost until they find Jesus. In the grand scheme of things there is no difference between the best of us and the worst of us. We are all sinners in need of a savior. Sin is not OK no matter how many times you confess it and say Hail-Mary's.
Just FYI, from what I have read in the Gospels...many of the religious leaders felt Jesus teachings were stupid. "Who is this son of a carpenter...from Naz!" Who does he think He is? We're the teachers of the law!
It leaves me in good company! :-)
Get over it Tallguy. Posters respond to comments made by other posters. Such was the case on this thread.
What is wrong with you people? The topic is not infant baptism or your humble opinions of whether Holy Catholic People are saved or not (don't worry about it, we are) the topic is:
Dobson Commends Palin's Support of Pregnant Daughter....
Stay on the topic. Don't worry so much about Catholics, we're fine without your stupid opinions!
May the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Love of God, and the Fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you <><..
star2, phew!, I thought I was having a flashback to my BC days, ha!
Sorry believer, I wanted to make it more clear what I meant by being saved.
believer - All the gays I am aware of on CP are Catholic with the exception of feetxxxl.
You said, "I agree with you as well that if a person is at peace with their sin or sinful lifestyle that's a good indicator they have not had a genuine conversion experience."
I believe that the gays on CP are at peace with their sin or sinful lifestyle because they are not truly saved (had a genuine conversion experience).
I am of the opinion that Catholics are not saved, they never had a genuine conversion experience, so that would, in general, give them peace in a lifestyle that God calls sin.
star2, what happened to your last post I was responding to?
star2, excellent point for not only catholics but for anyone who believes they are saved but has only had a false conversion experience at best.
star2, I wondered if I was the only one who was noticing that trend with regards to the catholic connection.
Mike2685
Re: Passover, The Lord's Supper/Communion
Old Testament Covenant:
The Jews are to observe all the days of their life the passover in order that they may REMEMBER how God delivered them from Egyptian bondage.
Deu 16:1-3
1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the Lord thy God: for in the month of Abib the Lord thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there.
3 Thou shalt eat no leaven bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleaven bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest REMEMBER the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.
The New Testament Covenant:
The teaching the Apostle Paul received from the Lord Jesus regarding the passover:
1 Corintihians 11: 23-26
23 For I have received of the Lord that which I also deliver unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, 'Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in REMEMBRANCE of me'.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, 'This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in REMEMBRANCE of me'.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew forth the Lord's death till he come.
Jesus is the fulfilment of the Old Testament. He is the passover Lamb that would redeem people from their sins.
It is obvious that the bread was only symbolic of Jesus' body. The Word of God says that the Messiah would be stricken for our transgressions. (Isaiah 53:8) Jesus took 39 stripes on His body. When the Jews baked their unleaven bread it was done on a grill and it left strips on it. The strips that Jesus took on His back parallels the strips on the unleaven bread. Jesus is the fulfilment of the Old Testament observance.
It is obvious that the cup was only symbolic of Jesus' blood. Jesus is the passover Lamb. It is His shed blood that is applied to our hearts (by accepting Jesus' sacrifice for our sins) that gives us redemption from our sins and allows us to escape His judgement when we die.
Since Jesus didn't give His body to be whipped until later that night and shed His blood until the next day when He hung on the cross the eating of the bread and the drinking of the cup is only a symbol of what He was going to do for them.
The Jews observe the passover as a REMINDER of what God did for them in delivering them from Egyptian bondage. In like manner, Christians observe the Lord's Supper as a REMINDER of what Jesus did for them to deliver them from sin.
"Unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you shall not have life within you."
The literal interpretation would be that while Jesus was saying that he was handing out bread and wine...not fingers and blood. Jesus literally used symbolism....
We know also from the very nature of the Gospel that his blood (which is required for attonement) must be shed. Jesus is the 'lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world'. You don't have to go any further than the annual sacrifice to understand exactly what he was talking about.
Paul speaks of the communion in 1st Cor 11:23-30. Verse 26- "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes."
It is a symbol remembering and recognizing his death for us.
Verse 27- "Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgement to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly."
Please note that if salvation was in the Holy Communion it would bring salvation and not condemnation. It is a rememberance of Jesus' death and thus our death to self.
He speaks of judging the body rightly. What does that mean? The greek says "not discerning the body of the Lord."
The body of Christ as we call it today is made up of those who have died to self and live for him. We don't choose for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. We depend on HIS word to determine this. It is the standard for what proper discernment is. This is why we take it as written.
So star is correct. There is no salvation in Catholism...only in Christ.
mike
If you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved.
So, I am not Catholic. But yet, I am a part of the body of Christ since I have been grafted into the vine, adopted.
Star, Catholics believe in the Body of Christ. "Unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you shall not have life within you." Since you're a Biblical literalist, how do you get around that scripture passage? Catholicism is the only way.
Is there really any salvation in Catholicism? Almost all the gays that post on CP are Catholic and are trusting in their infantile baptism and confirmation that had them confessing a belief in a God that never drew them to Jesus convicting them of their sins, their need for a Savior, and that Savior was Jesus Christ.
"as part of the apparent lack of ability to LEAD and how this might infer she's not fit to be a VP."
So, it begs the question.... Why was it when our current VP daughter being gay it was "oh what good parents" by the media and the left wing but this situation is "oh what horrible parents"?
believer,
Amen! That is the promise that is given us. Thank you for your great words.
prophet, your last paragraph was powerful and the awesome news is that no matter how many times we may fail one day because of what Christ did for us on Calvary we will by the grace of God have complete victory over sin and temptation for the rest of eternity!
jireh, I agree with you as well that if a person is at peace with their sin or sinful lifestyle that's a good indicator they have not had a genuine conversion experience. But I also believe there are some who claim they are at peace who are totally torn-up inside.
jireh and believer,
What we have here is the difference between sinning and practicing sin.
I am a recovering sex addict. At one point in my life I practiced that sin consistantly. But I have learned to battle it. It is a daily battle, and I may battle it for the rest of my life. But I have ceased from practicing it. Yes, from time to time I fall, and it is at those times I ask for forgiveness and fall upon His mercy. Then I get back up and keep fighting. It is still a sin, but it is no longer a sin I practice. It is not longer a sin I try to justify.
I have often spoken of homosexual Christians as being spiritually lazy. I hope that you all understand that I speak of those Christians who choose to practice their sin of homosexuality under the guise that God will turn His eyes from their lifestyle, and even condone their lifestyle.
To those Christians who are under bondage to such sin and who are daily fighting...keep fighting! Never give up! Never justify the sin! But never fall into condemnation when you fall. Ask for forgiveness, recieve His mercy, rise up again, and continue the fight! Christianity is a war, not a vacation. It is a war we wage unto our dying breath.
Believer,
Cool, that's exactly what I believe. No one is perfect, but as long as there's struggle against the inclination to sin, that's a good sign. It's those that persist in the sin and don't struggle against it anymore that worry me.
jj, I know believers who are struggling with the sin of homosexuality, some have left the homosexual lifestyle, but realize that there will always be those temptations that will seek to draw them back to that lifestyle and I know others who are still caught up in the homosexual lifestyle and have not yet been able to break free of that lifestyle, but are desperately struggling to find the way out and then there are some who God set free completely from that lifestyle when they became a believer. It's kind of like a person with an addiction problem. In some cases God allows them to immediately break free of their addiction when they come to Christ, but for others it's a lifelong battle even though they are a true believer. And for some the battle is much more difficult than it is for others.
Believer,
just to clarify, are you saying that you know people who are practicing homosexuals or those who have a same-sex attraction? I'm not sure how you can say someone who is actively practicing homosexuality is also living as a believer. Whether it is a hetero or homosexual acts outside of marriage, these are things that pretty much disqualify us from the kingdom of God.
"Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat peopleâ€â€none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." -1 Cor. 9
mike2685, "gays are not of God", if you mean that I believe that God does not create a person homosexual then at this point in time you are correct, but if you mean that I believe there are no homosexuals who are saved then you are 110% wrong and as a matter of fact I personally know believers who are homosexuals and there is not a doubt in my mind they are genuinely saved. And I know by saying that I put myself at odds with a number of other Christians.
Mike2685 - I believe if you were honest with yourself, you'd see that you love your sin of homosexuality more than you love God.
Urgent news, James Reynolds is rediculous. Any politician's wife would say the exact same thing, as would anyone whose husband or wife is off on tour a lot or is in the army. That doesn't make them an absent parent. Stop spreading lies, last time I checked, its not very Christian.
Believer: you most certainly hold the viewpoint that gays are not of God and can change, you have expressed it many times before. As I said, it all filters down into the general feel from society that gays are to be hated, regardless of how the original message began.
mike2685, you paint with a very wide brush with your view of hatred for homosexuals, I have always said that the jury is still out with regards to the cause of homosexuality. I do believe that there are some homosexuals who can adopt the heterosexual lifestyle and it appears there are others who for whatever reason can not or will not. I have never taught anyone they should hate a person simply because they are a homosexual and I do not see all homosexuals as perverts since perverts come in all sexual orientations. But I do not apologize for believing or teaching that God's Word teaches that the sexual practices of homosexuality are a sin in the sight of God, but that those sins are no worse than any other sin and God offers forgiveness to anyone who will repent of those sins as He does for any other sin. The problem is as I told feet when you have those in the homosexual community who flaunt their sin and try to force others to accept the sexual practices of homosexuality as not being a sin. As both a Christian and Pastor I am compelled by both God and His Word to speak out against those sins and any other sins as well, but do it in a way that will separate the sin from the sinner and in a way that shows both respect and love to those with opposing views.
Mike2685,
I'm sorry if you were mistreated by people who called themselves Christian. That's not right. One thing I have to take issue with, however, is that there is a difference between what you call hatred coming from the "religious right." While some in this category do have hatred, I do not, and most Christians do not. How could I hate anyone caught in a sexual sin, whether hetero or homosexual, since I've been there too? I can relate with you more than you know, however, I have been experiencing God's continuing grace. When I call hetero or homosexual stuff sin, I don't say it in a condemning way. I say it as a matter of truth. We all have sin in our lives and that's why we all need Christ.
You don't have to believe me, but I am telling you I don't hate you or any one who is a practicing homosexual. All I know is, from personal experience (sadly) that sexual sin will destroy you (and it did for far too many years). I have several good friends who have found freedom from their same-sex attraction and are living in a much better place for it today. They all say the same thing that the temptation never disappears completely, yet they are no longer bound to it as they once were.
All I'm saying is that God has set the boundaries. He does it for our good, not to punish or condemn us. It's to save us a whole lot of pain. I hope you can understand where we're coming from. It's a tough thing to communicate and sometimes it doesn't come across in the way we mean it to.
urgent news
Michelle Obama readily admits Barak was an absentee faather during the convention. She said it was really hard for our family while he spent so much time at the statehouse as a senator and said he was only home on the weekends.
If the left wants to criticize Palin they should also criticize Obama.
"Even Obama has said any comments about this girl's pregnency will get them fired from the campain! The subject is off-limits.
If you support Obama.... "
No, no, no DP. Obama statements are directed to those directly in his campaign, which no one here I think is. I think it's shallow to address her daughter and her plight in spite of all the REAL issues we have to discuss and adress, but I wouldn't mind discussing her daughter as part of the apparent lack of ability to LEAD and how this might infer she's not fit to be a VP.
I think her pregnancy strikes a hard pill to swallow for those who espose said policy on one hand and then have it bite them in the rear later. It's like how blowhard Rush Limbaugh was all for the death penalty and huge prison sentaces for drug offenders, but when he's caught exchanging enough Oxicodine to traqulize a herd of buffalo he seems to sing a different toon. It's hyporcracy.
Your brand of hatred: Deliberately targeting gays with hatred. Look on this site. There are multiple tabs for "gay issues" rather than for abortion, murder, criminals, etc. You make a conserted effort to hold down the gay community, yet you pretend to cloak it in love. You believe false studies just because they conclude the same as you want. You publish media giving gays the false hope they can change. I know, I was one of them, but I was one of the lucky ones who met people who fixed my head before I got to the point of suicide. When 33% of our youth suicides each year are gay youth, we need to look at the problem, and the problem is hatred they face. People are taught, from a very young age, by Christians, that gays are abnormal and disgusting, and that translates into hated, not love. Don't stand with your jaws on the floor as if you are surprised by all this. I believe if you were honest with yourselves, you'd see that you do indeed hold blame.
Mike2685,
I think the proper thing to do in any circumstance is to love the individual and yet hate the sin. The problem is that sometimes we (some Christians) can come off looking like the bad guy when we call something sin. The truth is, all sin leads to death. Would I want my daughter to make some of the mistakes that Palin's daughter made? Would I want her to chose the gay lifestyle? No. And the reason isn't because I hate sexual sinners or gay people, it's because those types of things lead to a whole host of social and physical problems, not to mention seperation from God. All sexual sin regardless of orientation leads to progressive forms of addiction.
The goal is reconciliation with Christ and restoration of a clear conscience. It's not my job to condemn anyone, but it is my job to tell the truth in love to my family members. Jesus said to the prostitute who he had saved from a mob of religious zealots about to stone her, "Go and sin no more."
"would the proper thing to do be disown her to show disdain for her sin?"
Absolutely not. The job of a parent is to help their child do what is right no matter the starting point. Right is what the Bible says is right. Sin is sin. Parents are to help their children through it to a right relationship with God.
mike2685, please define "your brand of hatred", thanks believer?
Just out of curiosity, had her daughter refused to marry the father, or if she had an abortion, would the proper thing to do be disown her to show disdain for her sin? That is what your brand of hatred promotes for many gay teens, how is this teen any different.
"What sickens me is that the rest of the religious right community is falling over themselves to be gracious"
The problem is the girl is allowed to legally make her own choices. In our state, a gal can marry at 16 without her parents permission (at 14 with). Children can move out on their own at 16 without the parents permission. Society teaches and defends that a 17 year old does NOT have to listen to their parents. Exactly what do you expect?
Even Obama has said any comments about this girl's pregnency will get them fired from the campain! The subject is off-limits.
If you support Obama....
chicago, does that mean when they accept the sexual practices of the homosexual lifestyle as not being sin? If so chances are that will never happen and please note that no one is saying that this young lady was not wrong for having premarital sex. That's where I think the problem comes. If your definition of acceptance by others means that I have to condone your sin or sinful lifestyle chances are you'll never see me as accepting you, but if your definition of acceptance means I can still fellowship and even establish a friendship with you without having to condone or accept your sin or sinful lifestyle then you will see me as being accepting of you as a person and even as a brother/sister in Christ. By the way I would not expect you to condone or accept the sin in my life either.
I'm glad the Palin family are standing by Bristol in this matter. That is only right.
What sickens me is that the rest of the religious right community is falling over themselves to be gracious, even as they continue to poke holes in the family values of the rest of us.
This must be what Jesus felt when he called the Pharisees "whited sepulchers". The "Religious Right" has no credibility with me and won't until the day when they demonstrate the love of Christ to everyone, not just people like themselves.
Maybe this comment is out of left field, but I was thinking how much people on both sides of the political spectrum are judging Pallin on her daughter's mistakes. I was thinking about biblical characters like Samuel and Hezekiah, godly men who were pretty unsuccessful in passing on their faith to their kids.
Also, I was thinking about how easy it is to point fingers and give our opinions on how Pallin should have brought up her daughter, or how the government should have educated her about how to avoid pregnancy (as if anyone that age is still unaware of contraception!). The bottom line is that as well intentioned as we can be, people still make bad choices. Would better parenting have helped? Maybe. Would more education have stopped the pregnancy? Maybe. I just wish people would leave her alone and focus on their own side of the street. Teach your kids as best you can and pray like crazy. That's all you can do.
"In Europe, their view is more knowledge is better"
Can't speak for other parents over here but we made sure that our kids where fully up to speed on contraception as they approached their late teens.
"Will you [palin] support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?"
Palin: "Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support."
Looks like she might want to rethink the abstinence thing, oops too late.......
In Europe, their view is more knowledge is better- they have far fewer teenage pregnancies.....
Keep em ignorant is never a good idea for anything....
I wonder if Dobson will speak up about the statements of her pastor soon.
Apparently you're going to hell if you voted for Kerry, or weren't happy with the way Bush handled Katrina. I'm sure the videos are coming, and yet again, non-Christians are going to get a sadly off impression about what following Christ is about.
As more and more comes out, I feel confirmed in my instincts that we Christians should have waited a few days to actually see who she was before we went crazy in support of her.
HypocritsRUs -- Once again diana...it is my hope that you get into some kind of divorce care program. It helped me. Otherwise, it will eat you alive and leave nothing but a shell. There is bitterness in everything you post. You blame the world for what happened to you. Guess what...the world is messed up. The only thing that is not messed up is Jesus. Give your bitterness to him and live what life you have left with the joy He can bring. There just isn't enough room in a person for all that bitterness and the joy the Lord can bring. Pick one.
lack of quality parenting does lead to more pregnant teens, however he did not say if you try your best this will never happen. He is aware the individual is going to make the decision. He also knows Palin is active in her life. Again it would be hypocritical of any christian to not forgive someone who is repentant.
I for one atired of the liberal left calling us hate mongers, but they think how they are treating Palin is just fine. That is being hypocritical
diana, your new name suits you well, but it is easy to throw stones just be careful one does not bounce back and shatter your glass or should I say plastic house!
HypocritsRUs
Please explain where Dr. Dobson desires to see any family experience the sins you have named.
Please explain where Dr. Dobson prefers to see the unborn child die because of a bad choice.
Dobson, the Hypocrite of Hypocrites strikes again. Shame on you Dr. Dobson for condoning ADULTERY and FORNICATION and IDOLATRY. Your own book says that lack of parental guidance and supervision is one of the key contributors to TEEN PREGNANCY and now you gloss it over all in your attempt to win ... all the while supporting aman who committed ADULTERY, and DIVORCED and ABANDONED his first wife.
Lovely family values. I missed that verse in the bible that said fornication and adultery and divorce is ok, so long as you don't abort your baby. Please...enlighten us. HYPOCRITE. PHARISEE.
Woe to you you blind guide.
The Lord will not be mocked!!!
Last time I checked, we were electing Sarah Palin and not the daughter. Mrs. Palin has stood by her child, is being a mom and is showing good family values by standing by her daughter for better or worse. I think is speaks well of her. Only control freaks consider themselves personally responsible for the actions of their 17 year old.
If this was Obama's daughter, an abortion would have been celebrated as part of a "woman's freedom."
The contrast between the radical Obama & the down-to-earth mother Palin could not be clearer.
I remember a story in the bible where it was said this women was Godly because she kept to her duty as a biblical women while still buying and selling property, made necklaces, and sold i think vegetables. Sounds like Palin could be a modern day Godly woman like that woman was.
It´s commendable to have the baby and to keep it, if that is Bristol´s real choice. However, I have real doubts about her marrying another 17 year old, who sounds like a real loser. He has admitted that he doesn´t want children.
I was waiting forMy wife actually to get her feedback as a Christian women. In her opinion this is another sign that Gov.Palin may need to spend more time at home than in civil service. I down syndrom baby requires attention not of a nanny but a mother. I pregnant daughter needs the personal attention of a mother. Her question was is she putting her ambition as a feminists first before her responsibilty to God as a mother. In either case it will be stressful for the family without even being on the campaign trail. One more thing lets call it what is Sin. The world may not agree but evangelicals christians should be biblically minded. The daughter should not be applauded.
God is no respector or person; the republican or democratic party are not found in the Bible. What you find is people who either obey or disobey God's word. God tell us to build on the firm foundation of Christ, apart from Him there is no other. Jesus is our ONLY salvation and anyone who says otherwise is false.
I do agree that Bristol made the right decision in keeping the baby, but I do pray her and her family will prayerfully think through all the options with regards to the well being of the baby. Marriage to the biological father may not necessarily be the best option at this point in time and most especially if it's true with regards to his view of having and parenting kids.
James,
You are right about life not consisting of material goods. But you are blind to the fact that material goods in the form of ultra low taxes for the wealthy is the one priority of the Republican leaders. It's the legislation they always get done in office. They do little to prevent unwanted pregnancies, which would reduce abortion. Rejecting idol worship is the first commandment and it's also the one Republican leaders always break. They put all their trust in dirty paper.
one more thought!
maybe just maybe this is God exhorting her to have so many like minded christians to rally around her and show her love, that other young ladies who face the same situation may have it easier to make the decision to keep their child. That sanctity of life is what God desires over thier own ambition of wealth. Christ came here so that we may have abundant life. That is a life of joy and happiness, not wealth and material. many poor people are happier than rich folks because they are content with what the lord has given them
God answers paryers differently than we think he should. Maybe just maybe this tragedy was used by God to show the nations republicans can be trusted in these situation as oppossed to what happened during katrina.
As for Palin it shows courage for her daughter to accept responsibilty to raise the child instead of aborting, it shows the conviction her family has taught her, and it reminds us that all our human and not perfect. She deals with this with her family and God. God will forgive her sin if she asked and God will give her the strength to endure. nobody puts anybody on a stool for their sin, but if you accept responsibilty, repent, and humble yourself God will exhort them himself.
I really don't think these two children should be getting married. According to the New York Post, the boyfriend had posted on his website that he "doesn't want kids." He had also posted quite a few really offensive remarks.
Hardly the type of parent a kid needs.
Well I applaud them for getting married. I don't understand why they're saying, "She's decided to keep the baby". What's that all about? This may come as a surprise to most Americans, but people still do start families young like nature intended, instead of waiting until they are 40. Not everyone lives in Los Angeles, San Francisco, or the Upper East Side of Manhattan. GO LIFE!
steven20 I agree about whether they should marry or not. I know of a couple that used to attend the church I am at. As a really new Christian at 17 she got pregnant by an older man. They got married I think after their first child was born at 19. They have been married for about 7 years. They have had two more children. She is absolutely miserable. She has no skills to get a real job. She has thought about leaving him because they are miserable. I do not know if he has run around on her but they constantly have financial problems because of gambling. I don't have children but I hope that they have checked this fellow out to see if he is marriage material. I would be concerned about it after seeing what has happened to this couple I know. They have moved out of town so I have lost touch with them but from what I heard it is going to be a long miserable experience for them and their small children.
If anyone thinks that the daughter is getting a free ride or being put on a pedestal they are sadly mistaken. Not only is she going to have to raise that child the next 20 years or so, she is being hypocritically vilified in the media by the very people that promote this sinful lifestyle and promote abortion. Maybe I know too many friends that have walked through this with their children as Christians. Many so-called Christian parents would have thrown their daughter out of the house, especially being in the public eye as her parents are. Other CHRISTIAN parents have pressured their daughters to have abortion. One woman I know was threatening to leave her CHRISTIAN husband for thinking about forcing their underaged daughter to have an abortion. Too proud to admit that their children are not perfect and are embarrassed at what other Christians will think of them.
I and thank God many sensible Christians are viewing this as an example of how Christian parents should walk their children through their mess. It is not an endorsement of the sin. It is showing the heart of God. Forgiveness for sin, admonish them not to do a repeat, ask for help along the way and receive it by His mercy.
Putting aside keeping the child, which by my count is the correct course of action, I'm not sure that getting married is the best way forward. I wonder if that is a knee jerk reaction, sure they had sex (stating the obvious) but that does not mean they are suited to married life tgether. Not getting married may seem at this time like the harder decision but in the long term it may be the wiser move avoiding more misery down the road that will juest compound this situation. One other question, had her parents taught her about contraception? And if not is this sort of outcome to be expected? Buts thats another discussion
Steve
My, my, my! I guess it's just a sign of the times. As a supposedly Christian nation we've become more and more "tolerate" and more eager to accept if not just down-right embrace sinful behavior and actions.
Now days, if a woman (especially a teenager) becomes pregnant out of wedlock, they're put on a pedestal of sorts. This only a symptom of the fact that God is no longer sovereign. He exists in name only in today's households, schools, and businesses, our governmental institutions. And probably, sad to say, in most churches.
As pseudo-Christians we've gone the way of the world. It's no small wonder Christians have no respect or honor. Shame on us!
Isn't it odd that a spokesman from Focus on the Family asked his supporters to pray for rain during Obama's acceptance speech? Of course, the weather was sunny and perfect. And now, the Republican's convention was thwarted by Hurrican Gustav.
If we use Focus on the Family's logic, then we can conclude that God obviously favors Obama.