Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama said Sunday that his answer to the question "When does a baby get human rights?" at the recent Saddleback Church civic forum was probably too flip.
Less than a month ago, Obama had answered moderator Pastor Rick Warren at the nationally televised event that it was “above my pay grade” to determine when life begins.
But on Sunday, during an interview with ABC News, Obama acknowledged the response was “probably” too flip.
"Yes. I mean, what I intended to say is that, as a Christian, I have a lot of humility about understanding when does the soul enter into…," he explained.
"It's a pretty tough question,” he continued. “And so, all I meant to communicate was that I don't presume to be able to answer these kinds of theological questions.”
Rick Warren, in an interview after the forum, said he thought Obama needed to be more specific with his answer.
“[T]o me, I would not want to die and get before God one day and go, ‘Oh, sorry, I didn’t take the time to figure out’ because if I was wrong, then it had severe implications for my leadership if I had the ability to do something about it,” Warren had said in a Beliefnet.com interview.
“But to just say ‘I don’t know’ on the most divisive issue in America is not a clear enough answer for me,” he added.
Obama, in his interview Sunday, had also explained that abortion is a moral issue and he does not think the government “criminalizing” the decision of families is the best way to reduce the practice.
Meanwhile, Obama’s running mate, Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware, said during a separate interview on NBC’s “Meet the Press” Sunday that as a Roman Catholic he accepts the church’s teachings that life begins at conception.
However, he thinks it’s inappropriate in a pluralistic society to impose his judgment on others.
National surveys show that Obama has been significantly less popular among highly religious white voters. A Gallup Poll survey, released on Friday, show that 65 percent of non-Hispanic white registered voters who attend church weekly support Republican candidate John McCain, compared to 26 percent who support Obama.
Overall, McCain is slightly leading Obama among registered voters, according to the latest Gallup Poll Daily tracking update. McCain has the vote of 48 percent of registered voters, while Obama has 45 percent. The results are based on interviews with 2,765 registered voters on Sept. 4-6.
RSS
Did Obama support the murder of Christians in Kenya? Aparently he raised $1 million dollars to his uncle who did.
It seems Christ was pretty clear how He feels about immoral sex and murder:
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Christ spoke out against immoral sex - everyone knew what Christ was referring to (as it is in the Law). This includes homosexuality, so there was no need to be more explicit.
Those starting their lives have just as much a right to protection as those in the twilight years, if not more. I do believe it is the role to protect the innocent, especially those who can not help themselves. If there were no abortion, there would be 40 million more in this country to provide for the government to tax to provide for the needs of those who can not provide for themselves. Abortion is murder. Dems have fought every attempt by congress to stop it. And there HAVE been attempts in the Bush years - and the Partial-birth Abortion Ban Act was passed - but Reps were afraid to go farther because Dems have fought them so hard on every abortion front. This is the same bill that Obama opposed in the Illinois congress.
seedplanter/msnchris
"Stan I don't know who you are or how familiar you are with Christian history, but it has been the practice since the first century for Christians to rescue babies that were being abandoned at the garbage dumps in Rome having been left exposed there to die."
I'm much less concerned with what the practices are or are not of "some" Christians, but I am concerned about what the Bible says. All life is precious to the Lord and He sees an older person as if they were young. God doesn't see the wrinkles and the beat up bodies as we do. I see getting an abortion as offending God, but I don't in any way shape or form find evidence that this sin is "THEE" sin of all sins. It is a highly emotional sin that creates the desired effect in the electorate to get the desired result...nothing done on abortion...tax cuts for the wealthy. The same thing is done with gays. Picturing one man having sex with another is repulsive to me, but I find it beyond interesting that the Lord didn't decide to make it one of the immutable laws carved in stone. I also find it interesting that He gave us numerous quotes from His only Son in the Gospels, but not one quote from Christ bashing gays. I always voted Democrat, but in 1996, I abstained, because of Bill Clinton's lewd behavior. You want to know why Congress has a lower approval rating than President Bush, because Democrats are voting their disapproval. They are not loyal no matter what, like many Republicans are. My dad was Republican most of his life and my mother is Catholic, I'm neither. My love is for everyone, but my loyalty is Christ's alone.
Chris,
Amen. Let's carry that banner of life for all to see. Defend the undefended.
Stan,
Yeah, and if you want to see the consistent record of Christians always believing that abortion was murder, then all you have to do is do a search for: Catholic and Early Church Fathers, comma then Abortion. It will come up for you. There are many quotes that show Christian TRADITION of saying abortion was evil. The Catholic Church has never wavered on Abortion and we are so thankful for the many wonderful Protestant Christians who help carry the banner against abortion with us.
God protect the innocent! Remember, John the Baptist leaped for joy in Elizabeth's womb when Mary approached with the baby Jesus still in her womb. Praise the Lord!!!
"I'd better cancel my subsciption to the Wittenburg Door then...."
Do they still print that thing???
Stan,
I don't think abortion is the only issue in this election, but it is clearly the most critical concern for Christians. Obama refused to protect babies even after birth. This is intolerable.
The Bible does not have to explicitly state that it is the Christian's duty to protect unborn babies. The Bible does not specifically say that it is immoral to beat your kids with razor wire while you hang them upside down by their toe nails from the rafters. Nevertheless the Bible does speak to the issue and has been posted here and elsewhere.
Stan I don't know who you are or how familiar you are with Christian history, but it has been the practice since the first century for Christians to rescue babies that were being abandoned at the garbage dumps in Rome having been left exposed there to die.
Obama has the audacity to be concerned about his daughter's futures in an unwanted pregnancies without consideration of the little innocent baby whose life he is about to terminate. He wants to talk about hope? If Obama cannot even bring himself to protect the helpless how can he expect anyone to respect him. He is more radical than HILLARY!
Barrack is not about mercy or justice, but abortion on demand.
Oh, I disagree with Obama on other issues as well. McCain has a track record of authoring legislation and getting things passed. Obama has written two books on himself. His hubris seems to know no bounds. I like lower taxes. I want our country safe. I want judges who will not make law from the bench. I want social and financial conservatives in office. I don't believe the extreme Democrats are good for this country (and Obama seems to be one of the most extreme.
Murder is the antithesis of love. It seems like a good measuring stick.
Emergent view:
On the other side of the evangelical political spectrum, there Is worry that Palins star turn will diminish months of work Obama backers have put into wooing young evangelicals.
Doug Pagitt, pastor of Solomons Porch in Minneapolis, said young evangelicals in his circle fear that Palins ascendancy signals a return to "old-school divide and conquer politics" and a narrow focus on abortion politics.
"There was a feeling that an era was coming to a close" said Pagitt, a leader in the emergent church, a diverse but hard-to-define movement that draws many young and creative evangelicals. "Now with a 44-year-old woman, there could be another half a lifetime of this"
Tony Jones, another emergent church leader, said it is too early to say that. "It’s only been two weeks" he said.
"Although I think Palin will energize the conservative base, I don’t think the Palin pick does anything for progressive evangelicals" said Jones, who caucused for Obama. "If anything, it tarnishes McCain's once stellar reputation as an independent-minded politician."
Emergent view:by Associated Press
Sunday, September 14, 2008"
"On the other side of the evangelical political spectrum, there’s worry that Palin’s star turn will diminish months of work Obama backers have put into wooing young evangelicals.
Doug Pagitt, pastor of Solomon’s Porch in Minneapolis, said young evangelicals in his circle fear that Palin’s ascendancy signals a return to “old-school divide and conquer politics†and a narrow focus on abortion politics.
“There was a feeling that an era was coming to a close,†said Pagitt, a leader in the emergent church, a diverse but hard-to-define movement that draws many young and creative evangelicals. “Now with a 44-year-old woman, there could be another half a lifetime of this.â€Â
Tony Jones, another emergent church leader, said it’s too early to say that. “It’s only been two weeks,†he said.
“Although I think Palin will energize the conservative base, I don’t think the Palin pick does anything for progressive evangelicals,†said Jones, who caucused for Obama. “If anything, it tarnishes McCain’s once stellar reputation as an independent-minded politician.â€Â
If the taking of human life is the basis of your voting, where does that reconcile with scripture? I'm not talking about finding verses of scripture that mention killing is wrong, I'm talking about making a sound argument on why killing is your focus. Idol worship is the first commandment and love should be your greatest aim. Why is there not one parable or religious teaching on killing by Christ in the four gospels, but you make it your lone focus? If a baby was crying and I made the sin of killing and another person made the sin of ignoring it while it slowly starved to death, who would be the worse sinner? That's what the GOP does with the 16 million or more children(never mind adults, nothing in scripture that says a child's life is different than an adult's life) who die every year from preventable diseases. And they refuse to pass any laws that would cut down the number of children aborted.
Murder is a moral issue. Let's not pass laws criminalizing people's behavior as a way to reduce it.
Blue, it may be a moral question as to whether or not it is appropriate to kill a baby. But what certainly is not an ethical category is when life begins. It is a scientific fact that life begins at conception.
Obama was merely trying to cloud the issue in consideration of his unwillingness to protect babies after they are born. He was actually trying to remain consistent without incriminating himself before the pastor.
Obama, in his interview Sunday, had also explained that abortion is a moral issue and he does not think the government “criminalizing†the decision of families is the best way to reduce the practice.
He is right. Anyone trying to dispute his point is only invoking a moral reasoning and certainly not a legal one.
Looks like I'd better cancel my subsciption to the Wittenburg Door then....
Steve
P.s On the subject of Zechariah, sure wish my wife would take God less seriously, sure would be peaceful.
I'm sorry that I take the Word of God so serious. I didn't realize that it was meant as a satirical writing, instead of a guidebook.
All sarcasm aside, yes, I do take God serious. Please show me one person in the Bible who didn't. When God told Zechariah (John the Baptist's father) that he was going to have a son, he didn't take God serious. I see what happened to him.
The meal at mcDonalds is meant as a little joke...If humour gets me placed in the carnalistic camp then I will wear the badge with pride, thank you prophet, obviously you are a real Chrsitian (which I beleieve, though I reckon our Lord has the final word on that)because you are so serious.
Keep it up..
Steve
Jesus said, "my sheep hear my voice and they follow".
If God can speak to a little boy (Samuel), and a grown man (Gideon and Paul), he can speak to you. If you are not hearing His voice, does this say something about God or you?
There ARE principles in the word of God that tells us how to vote. But God leads us in numerous ways, in different ways, including feelings, words, events. Some of us DO hear God's voice. Some do not. But we all have His word. We all must test what we hear/feel/do against what God said in His word.
" I don't think 'God' tells/asks/demands/ etc..anybody to vote in one particular way."
Actally...God gives us principles to live by. One is that life is sacred. It is a horrible thing to have to take a life. Yet, our terrorist enemies have behaved in such a way that we must protect ourselves. One is that Christians die to self and live for Christ. This doesn't mean the Christianity is part of your life that you can just leave at the door. Christianity defines who a Christian is. It is not simply part of your life. It is your life. "Never the less, not I who live but Christ who lives in me."
Those principles alone keep me from voting for the Obama ticket. Still, God does speak to my heart about quite a few things. I see things I would not see without outside intervention. Biblical wisdom does not come from any of us. It is something shown to us.
And that, Steve, is why I question your Christianity.
Hmmm....a meal at McDonalds....or our country's future...
I can see how similar those two are. Whether I eat at McDonalds or at Wendy's does have a huge impact on what direction this country goes. That's a very carnlistic way of looking at things.
The problem is that so few actually do pray about important things, such as who we want leading our country.
"If you were a Christian, then why did you ask "if you vote the way God asks you to, how to you reconcile that with other Chrsitans who believe God asks them to vote diffrently to you?""
Okay lets cool this down (I'm also talking to myself also). I don't think "God" tells/asks/demands/ etc..anybody to vote in one particular way. I have a brain that can reflect/ think about the world around it, therefore I believe I can come to my own decision to vote in a particular way, if some people wish to pray about it, thats fine by me, but I don'r feel the need to so that, just the same as I don't ask God what meal to have when I go to McDonalds. I am grown up you know...
DanielPaul
Don't be so silly, there is only one football.....
:-P
Steve
It is interesting that many people just can't figure out what the 80% of our brain we don't use is there for. Perhaps it was created for 'spiritual use'.
"Right, off to play football, the beautiful game. "
Yours or ours?
This is my narrow view of God. He is God. His Word is true and just. He is the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. He's also the God of me and millions of Christians. He heals, delivers, sets free, sanctifies, annoints, speaks, moves, inspires. He is holy, perfect, sinless, just, loving, forgiving, life, our strong tower, our shield, our fortress. He is from everlsting to everlasting, eternal and unchanging. That is my "small view".
But I assume the you believe that God demands. Is that the kind of relationship that you have? Do you "do" because He demands and you're afraid of what will happen if you don't? You are sounding more like an orthodox Jew than a Christian.
When I pray I ask God for wisdom and direction. When I ask "What do you want me to do?". He says "I want you do this..." He doesn't say "You HAVE to do this..." He doesn't say "You MUST do this...." He says "I want you to do this..." And most of the time I do it. Sometimes my flesh gets in the way and I don't. And that's where grace comes in. But that's another sermon.
If I said that you weren't a Christian, it was because of listening to you over a length of time.
If you were a Christian, then why did you ask "if you vote the way God asks you to, how to you reconcile that with other Chrsitans who believe God asks them to vote diffrently to you?"
If you are a Christian, why not ask yourself that question?
Actually being a Chrsitian or not (and by the way how can you be sure of that) has nothing to do with me chuckling. The God I am aware of the God of Iassac, Jacob, Abraham, the God who burns in a bush but does not consume it, is not one who as far as I know asks......dead right asks was extreme, and so was suggests by by the way, thats why I chuckle, I fear you have a very small view of God, Oh but how could I know that because YOU know I am not a Christian.....because YOU say who is and who isn't (Hope I got that right).
And just in case you ask, Yes I know Christianity is not a religion but a living realtionship with Jesus just as a man has a realtionship with his wife doing what pleases her not due to rules but due to love....
Reckon that covers everything, phew!!
Right, off to play football, the beautiful game.
Steve,
You "chuckle that God asks me" because you are not a Christian. You do not understand the difference between Christianity and religion. Now, maybe "ask" may be a little to one extreme...maybe I should of said "I vote the way God suggests, or says, I should vote." But God does not demand. God does not force. We have free will. I do not do what is right because I am afraid of some recompense of I don't. I do what is right (i.e. what the Bible teaches) because I love God, and I want to please him.
That's the difference between Christianity and religion.
Religion is built on fear.
Christianity is built on love.
Religion says "I have to..."
Chritianity says "I want to..."
As far as your question about the way other Chrisitans vote. I don't answer for them. There relationship with God is between them and God. If a Neo-Nazi was running for president and they said "God told me to vote for them", then their decision is between them and God, and God will deal justly with them. I may point out the error of their decision, but it's still God they will have to answer to.
I have made decisions in my life that I truly thought were of God, only to find out that they weren't. God dealt with me justly, but lovingly.
Prophet
I've had a thought, if you vote the way God asks you to, how to you reconcile that with other Chrsitans who believe God asks them to vote diffrently to you/
Kind regards
Steve
P.s I had to chuckle that god "asks" you...
A flip answer usually comes from a flip person.
What fun Letterman would have with Obama!
Yes I know what you mean, very often, though it takes time the secret actions and thoughts of men come to light, nothing stays hidden for ever...I understand
I vote as God asks me to vote. There have been people in the past that knew their "Godspeak" very well, but God has a way of bringing the truth to light. And those who are Spiritually minded will understand and see that.
Steve,
You said "The danger in your approach is that you open up yourself to be used by politicians who use stock phrases etc..to gain your vote."
How so? If a man is a truly Godly man, then that would not be an issue. That is my point.
steve,
I made that observation, not on a single question, but an entire conversation.
prophet
How do you know I am carnally minded because I ask that question, thats quite a leap to make because I am willing to look at and reflect on the situation at hand. The danger in your approach is that you open up yourself to be used by politicians who use stock phrases etc..to gain your vote. Thanks you for using the example of David and Saul, I am quite up to speed on them they make interesting examples.
By the way many thanks for answering the question.
Kind regards
Steve
President Truman, had a sign on his desk in the White House which stated, "The Buck Stops here." http://www.trumanlibrary.org/buckstop.htm
Obama, who is not able to determine when life begins or when a child should get rights, is no President Truman.
seedplanter,
That is true. Unfortunately Carter showed his true colors. "We will know them by their fruit."
As much as I long for it though, I know that we will never have a truly Godly leader.
Prophet,
Of course I would rather elect an eight year old Josiah than a well experienced Nebakanezer.
My point is however that Jimmy Carter was hailed in as the nations born again president when he was the one responsible for incorporating Roe v. Wade as a part of American life. He was a Southern Baptist Sunday school teacher and who would have ever guessed?
Similarly, we have a Democratic nominee who was brought up in religious schools (one Muslim and one Catholic if I'm not mistaken) who doesn't think it plausible to protect babies after they are born. On the other hand we have a Republican contender who has little religious heritage at all who is basically pro-life.
"It's a pretty tough question," he continued. "And so, all I meant to communicate was that I don't presume to be able to answer these kinds of theological questions."
So...he's not smart enough to know if abortion is actually killing a creation of God but that's OK...God can make more.... If he's not smart enough for this issue then he's just not smart enough to be President.
Proverbs 29:2 "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."
Joseph is another good example. He was a poor man, who, through God's wisdom and guidance, became second in command of the greatest empire of his time. He was in no way a politician. So, yes, I'd rather follow a truly Godly man. Man's wisdom is foolishness before God. And a man who follows God's wisdom will bring blessings upon the people.
Builders and politicians...hmmm...there's a good comparison. Kinda like apples and atomic warfare....
steve,
You're right. I'd rather follow a man who is on top of local and foreign policies, but promotes mass murder and homosexuality and promiscuity.
Who is actually the wiser one? A God fearing politician, or an atheist politician? Depends on who you ask.
But speaking to a carnally minded person, I do not expect you to understand. King David was raised a shepherd boy. And because he had a righteous heart, and listend to God, he became Israel's greatest king ever. Saul, though I don't think it's clear about it, was raised in a political atmosphere. And look at how he ended up.
Paul, before his conversion, was very political in his views before he was converted. It's a good thing that Jesus got a hold of Him and straightened him out.
prophet
Does that mean that if you had a choice of builders you would choose a rubbish one who happened to be godly but will do a rubbish job rather that an excellent one who was not a believer but does a great job? Leading a country can be considered in the same light, a good leader builds....
Prophet,
You are so right about the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4fe9GlWS8. Everyone should watch it: some to be reminded of the truth, others to learn it for the first time.
Provergs 12:5 "The thoughts of the righteous are right: but the counsels of the wicked are deceit."
Proverbs 15:28 "The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things."
And my favorite...
Proverbs 29:2 "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."
"When does life begin?" is a biological question. The answer is a biological fact; it is not a theological question." -Squeeky
You've got that right! It is a simple fact that life begins at conception. Question is do we have a right to end it? When a little 9 week old baby cringes in pain and agony as it is being burned alive, does it make it ethical just because it doesn't comprehend what is taking place?
"There are many things Republican leaders can do to drastically reduce abortions but they don't." -Stan
Well Stan, partial birth abortions have been banned. And the Supreme Court upheld it. Thanks to the previous administration tax payers do not have to kill their conscience by paying for it (directly that is to say - Planned Parenthood still receives more than its share of funding inspite of the millions of $$$ in profits). PP is currently lobbying for more $$$.
Remember Stan, Obama did not want to protect children in my home state of IL after they were born............... A L I V E ! ! !
AgentOrange,
Was your question answered sufficiently? I understand that your question was more of a possible dilemma of the soul that you were attempting to set forth rather than an ethical question.
Holito,
"However, God warns us that we should elect godly rulers, remember Saul."
While this may seem like a good standard, it should probably be pointed out that if I needed to hire a lawyer, I would not try to hire my pastor unless he was qualified and licensed to practice.
Furthermore, Good point about Dems and Reps; I still regret not having voted for the Democrat that was running against George Ryan for governor some years back. He was pro-life and we probably would have saved ourselves a lot of pain from the current office.
God's Word is clear on this matter, God will honor the nation whose leaders honor Him, and that is the question every Christian needs to prayerfully ask themselves before they support or vote for any political candidate.
Here's a good link as to why we are in Iraq, and why Obama needs to bow out of the presidential race.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4fe9GlWS8
holito,
Amen! If a President is truly Godly, he will seek God's will and wisdom in all things and decisions, whether foreign or domestic. God's wisdom is above ours. It is true and perfect.
I would rather vote for a man/woman who is truly Godly, and may lack in foreign/domestic affairs, then vote for a heathen who is fluent in both.
Republican or Democratic leaders, I haven't found either in the Bible. What I do find is those who obey and those that disobey God's word. So please show me.
Whilst that is certainly a question you can ask, I don't think it is one you can get a definative answer to, unless that person knows the mind/will of God and or thinks it is better to have an incompetant christian politician rather than a competant unbeliver governing . I think the best approach to take is Paul's commendation to pray for those in goverment, that maybe (?) gives part of the answer.
That is a good point that we should pray for whoever is the leader. However, God warns us that we should elect godly rulers, remember Saul.
If I believed for one second that Republican leaders(not most Republicans) cared about this issue, I would tell you. What do they do, rather than what they say? They always start wars and always get their tax cuts done and never save as many lives from being aborted as possible. They act like they are more concerned with getting people to say uncle and admit that life begins at conception. I'm more concerned about preventing the process from happening. Many here are working out their salvation in concert with their Republican values and it doesn't work that way. You should bring your values to government, but instead you are taking your cues from government. Evangelicals are being exploited for their votes.
wbmoore,
Well, for 8 years the media and comedians have been making fun of his Texas speak and mannerisms.
Obama often misspeaks, but the media love him and overlok it. If it was Bush or McCain, they'd be all over it.
Obama apparently thinks the USA has 60 states...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws
holito8
"Do you think God wants an nonbeliever ruling over His people?"
Whilst that is certainly a question you can ask, I don't think it is one you can get a definative answer to, unless that person knows the mind/will of God and or thinks it is better to have an incompetant christian politician rather than a competant unbeliver governing . I think the best approach to take is Paul's commendation to pray for those in goverment, that maybe (?) gives part of the answer.
Kind regards
Steve
Thank you for your kind comment mathetes and your enquirey.
I have just finished a paper on calculating, mass, density, orbits etc..of planets around other stars and then drawing conclusions about their composition etc, its all very interesting, especially hot Jupiters.
Its all very exciting today in the world of science with the switch on of the Large Hadron Collider at Cern in Europe, if you go to the BBC news site they have stacks of info on it.
Cheers
Steve
Obama was one of the senators who voted against making English our official language.....
Join up with Barack? You don’t say. I saw you quoting the 1st commandment; yet you must have forgotten another scripture. John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
However, Barack believes Jesus is not the only way into heaven. Are you unequally yoked? What do the saved and unsaved have in common?
Do you think God wants an nonbeliever ruling over His people?
Steve,
I think you are probably right about that. It's interesting that the same being could be seen in two very different ways under the law.
I've been well but too busy to post. New responsibilities leave me even less time for the computer. Occasionally I've been able to scan responses to some articles. If I never told you before, I appreciated the calmness of your posts. Last I remember, you did a paper on planet formation. What are you working on now?
Philo777 did you quote for a Bible or a pamplete you found. You misquoted Scripture:
Exodus 21:22 was misquoted:
It reads: If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, YET no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exodus 21:23-24
But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life…..
God values the lives of His people. Now nonbeliever, I will let Jesus words stand: "Let the dead bury the dead."
Hi
I deleated it because I decided that it was a bit of a "how many angels can dance on a pin head" question so I withdrew it as I felt it was not helpful to the debate.
I wonder if the answer under law to your question is that the abortionist acts with the consent of the mother but the shooter does not...just a thought
How you doing?
Steve
Steve, what happened to your question? Did you delete it? I know I saw it just a second ago.
Philo777, you wrote:
"If science ever proves there is anything, anything at all that survives the death of the body, you might have a case. 'Till then, it's nothing but a collection of cells 'till it's born. That's how the law defines it, and that's how it is 'till proven otherwise."
I don't believe that is the legal definition in all cases; maybe it's the definition that allows people to justify abortion. But several times a man has shot a pregnant woman, killing her and her unborn child, and he was charged with a double murder. Either the unborn is a child or a collection of cells - which is it? Why can the shooter be charged with murder but not the abortionist?
philo, the KJV, NKJV, NLT, HCSB, as well as the NASB I quoted from all use the term child or children, so it is not just one reliable translation that uses it. Plus, the Interlinear Bible of Hebrew and English also translates it as children as well.
Here's what Obama doesn't want to say: "I know when life begins, but I don't care. I say I'm a Christian, but I refuse to put God first and myself second.
I have the support of Planned Parenthood and other organizations whose roots are targeting the reduction of black children, and I'm black. And I believe I have the good judgment to be the President of the United States."
That's why there's all this double-speak and uncertainty. That's why Biden doesn't want to tangle with his Bishop, because he'll get slapped down like Pelosi did.
Christians, vote for pro-life candidates like McCain and Palin, to God be the glory.
Here is a problem I have with people who try to waffle on the life issue by claiming that no one really knows or can tell when life begins or when the soul enters in the body. If you are not sure about either, why not err on the side of caution? If you don't believe the clear teaching of the Bible that life begins at conception (Psalm 139:13-16), when do you believe life begins?
If you are sure that baby is alive and has a soul when it is born, but you are not sure if it was alive or had a soul at 6 months, wouldn't it be prudent to protect it at 6 months just in case? Or at 5 months? Or at 4 months? Or at 3 months? Or at 2 months? Or at 1 month? Or at conception? When the question of a human life is in the balance, then we ought to err on the side of caution and protect that child at the earliest possible moment (conception).
Even someone accused of murder has to be proven guilty beyond any reasonable doubt before being executed...
Thank you, Believer, for illustrating why there are 34,000 different sects and denominations of Christianity. Poor Rick Warren had to use no less then 12 different versions of the bible to support his points in "Purpose Driven Life."
If version one doesn't support your point, surely version 2, 3 or 4 will. It constantly amazes me how much cherry-picking goes on among Christians. Unfortunately, you tend to cherry-pick the constitution the same way, but I see where you learned how to do that.
It seems that the whole abortion issue boils down to this "soul" thing. Don't you think it might be a good idea to define this "thing," and prove it's existence before we go about executing people for murdering it?
I can't wait for the first abortion trial. Modern-day Clarence Darrow's will be standing in line to defend the "murderer," forcing the prosecution to prove the existence of something that doesn't exist.
If science ever proves there is anything, anything at all that survives the death of the body, you might have a case. 'Till then, it's nothing but a collection of cells 'till it's born. That's how the law defines it, and that's how it is 'till proven otherwise.
I misspoke. I have been using the 34,000 figure as the number of Christian sects and denominations for years, and I just checked the web site so I could reference it and it seems the number is now closer to 38,000. That's a heck of a lot of different interpretations, wouldn't you say?
http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm
Problems pinochos?
philo, here is what the NASB says, "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide." And then vs. 23, "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,". So number one they saw the child as a child even in the womb and there was a serious consequence if anyone by harming the woman caused her to lose that child.
Here's the final word: First - Life begins at conception. No if's, and's or but's. Second - abortion is sheer murder. No if's, and's or but's.
There is absolutely nothing complicated about what I've just said. Either you get it or you're just plain stupid!
SqueakyWheel
The question I posted was not when does life begin, but the one you ask is important, what I'm really interested in is how is life defined, the two are diffrent, defining what life actually is makes a vast diffrence to the abortion debate.
Thanks
Steve
"When does a baby get human rights?" is a legal question.
"When does life begin?" is a biological question. The answer is a biological fact; it is not a theological question.
Obama is trying to blur the lines of distinction in the questions by implying that he was asked about the start of a human soul's existence.
No one asked him such a question. The beginning of human soul is a theological question. That is a complex question with no obvious biological or legal answers.
Let's not get fooled with Obama's attempts to duck the legal and biological questions regarding human life at conception & then to stealthly morph them into a theological issue.
Thinking folks won't get so easily fooled.
There are many things Republican leaders can do to drastically reduce abortions but they don't. We can teach both abstinence as a first resort and protection as a last resort, but they don't want to solve the issue. They can make sure young mothers get paid well and have health insurance for kids, but they don't. Again, the first Commandment is to have no other God's before the only God, and God is not talking Tiki Idols, today it is money . The number one concern for Republican leaders is their tax cuts and those always get done! Living in luxury with seven homes while millions of children die to disease and poverty and tell me how much you care. Join up at Barack's website and both unwanted pregnancies and children dying around the world will drop.
Exodus 21:22 (RSV) When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.
Gee, I would read that to mean that injuring a woman and thereby causing the fetus to be aborted wasn't such a big deal. More of what we would call today a "civil" crime.
Calling abortion "murder" is nonsense, and what's more, it is the slipperiest of slippery slopes. Is a woman who has an abortion therefore liable for a murder charge? The doctor? What about whoever drove her to the doctor? Is he/she an accessory? What about others who knew?
Yea, I can't wait for the Christians to run the country!
Senator Obama and his views on Partial Birth Abortion and Gay Rights are totally offensive to me. As a Born Again Christian Should Senator Obama be elected I will pray for him as I never have prayed for any president before!
God help America, and may America belss God from whom we have been so blessed.
farout63
agent, the Bible simply states that when God breathes life into us we are indwelt with a soul. Now how does that happen with twins, I once again can't answer with all certainty.
agent, there are no surprises with God, He's known for all eternity who will be born to include twins and He has a plan in place to give them each a soul. How He does it I do not know, but I know He does it because His Word teaches that every human being has a soul.
jj, although the Bible does not mention abortion by name it does indeed talk to the fact that life begins in the womb. David and Jeremiah are two good examples as both talk to the fact that they were alive in their mother's womb. In the New Testament when Mary goes to visit Elizabeth we're told that the baby in her womb leaped for joy. So the argument that pro-abortionists and pro-choice people use that what's inside the womb is nothing but a mass of living tissue does indeed totally contradict the Word of God.
Steve: You raised good questions. The bible doesn't say a thing about abortion and yet the religious get their panties in a bundle about it.
On this note, I am interested in this. We hear that the 'life begins at conception' and that at this point the 'soul', (whatever it is, I've yet to get a real definition of it) enters the body. But I have a question about this. When the egg is fertilized and then this soul is there, what happens when in some rare cases the zygote splits to become 2 identical twins? Do they share the soul each having 1/2 or something? Does one get it and not the other? Or does God then magically interact and give one to the other or something? Is this somewhere in the bible?
Steve,
I think that somewhere around 6% of abortions are circumstances where rape or incest is involved. Even more rare is the case when it is to save the life of the mother. The majority of Americans would claim these two to be the exceptions.
Sad thing is, there are some cases where abortion is forced. Even worse is when the mother is significantly injured during the proceedure and even dies in some cases. I remember the story of a thirteen year old who died from an abortion. Theses stories of course are of course deliberately ignored by the news.
I just learned that YouTube actually deleted videos criticizing Planned Parenthood. Check it out at: http://culturecampaign.blogspot.com/
Thanks seedplanter
I'm just interested to know what people mean by the word life, yes I suppose the general concensus is that life starts at conception, but is the general concensus correct (it might be)and if it is how is it reached? I don't think these questions are asked very often, they are just taken for granted.
My position by the way is that I'm uncomfortable with abortion as a form of contraception but there may be circumstances where it may be the lesser of two evils (so to speak) so I never rule it out.
Regards
Steve
Steve,
Do you want to know what the pro-life position is or the philosophical and religious ramifications of being pro-life? The general consensus is that life starts at conception. This is what Obama and Bidden were responding to.
Fact is the pro-life issue has done more to drive a wedge between Democrats and Republicans than just about any other thing. For me there are several other issues such as homosexual special rights taking presidence over freedom of speach and freedom of religion.
No, I'm personally not a bleeding heart Democrat, but there are pro-life Dems who can't even get a hearing. They might as well be independants.
?
The tongue reveals the heart...
Seeing that the term "life" is being banded around here, would it not help the debate by defining what is meant by the term life, itself, how do you define life, and how does that relate to a foetus?
>> as a Roman Catholic he [Biden] accepts the church's teachings that life begins at conception.
However, he thinks it's inappropriate in a pluralistic society to impose his judgment on others. <<
Schemeroo said
>> So at this point, it is fully acceptable to say both Biden and Obama believe in the murder of innocent people for the convenience of those around them <<
That's exactly what they've done, but like most "Pro-Choice" advocates, they refuse to think that deeply about the matter. It reminds me of the Road Runner VS. Wile E. Coyote bit; Road Runner is chased by Wile E. right off a cliff, but since Road Runner hasn't studied gravity, it won't affect him, and only Wile E. will fall and make that cloudy splat noise at the bottom.
... Or just putting ones hands over their ears, singing "LA LA LA LA LA LA" until the offending bad news bearer just goes away.
"Yes. I mean, what I intended to say is that, as a Christian, I have a lot of humility about understanding when does the soul enter into"
So if you believe, as I assume he means, that the soul's enters on conception, as Biden also says he believes, then you must by basic logic, also understand that this makes abortion the murder of an innocent human being. So at this point, it is fully acceptable to say both Biden and Obama believe in the murder of innocent people for the convenience of those around them - and there is absolutely no defending that this is indeed the position of these two men.
Wow, Senator Biden accepts that life begins at conception but doesn't want that fact to deter those who would do away with it. Does he feel the same way about other matters? If life has begun, and then someone decides the heartbeat must be stopped and the life ended, he's okay with doing away with that life. What an admission. Is he capable of rational thought?
Sen. Biden, does life begin or not begin at conception you can't have it both ways. It would be like two doctors being in a room deciding if a person is dead. One doctor believes it's a result of the person no longer breathing, has no heart beat, or brain activity and one doctor who says he feels cold to me and his skin color looks ashy, so I say he's dead. Would the first doctor say well that's my belief, but I don't want to force my beliefs on you so I guess he is dead even though he's still breathing and has a strong pulse. Sure this is an absurd example but no more absurd than Sen. Biden's opinion.
"And so, all I meant to communicate was that I don't presume to be able to answer these kinds of theological questions."
That's a newsbreaker. I thought he was going to answer the question.
Bidden "thinks it's inappropriate in a pluralistic society to impose his judgment on others."
Now that's an original thought.
If the Democratic platform wants to genuinely incorporate change, why don't they start by giving an ear to pro-life Democrats???
It seems the only change they want is the change left in our pockets after filling our gas tanks! -That's if there is any after they raise gasoline taxes.