Thousands of believers across the state of California were encouraged and empowered to take a stand against same-sex āmarriageā Wednesday through an event that was broadcast live to more than 160 churches in California and countless others across the World Wide Web.
-
(Photo: Rock Photo / Brother Joe)Hundreds of California Christians are encouraged to take a stand against same-sex āmarriageā at "The Fine Line" rally at the Rock Church in San Diego Wednesday, October 1, 2008.
āWhen He (God) said in Genesis, āMan should leave his mother and father and be cleaved to a woman,ā He didnāt say ābe cleaved to the same sex,āā Miles McPherson, senior pastor of the Rock Church in San Diego, told thousands of youth gathered for āThe Fine Lineā rally.
āWe need to stand up for righteousness. We need to stand up for what the Bible says. We need to be a voice for America,ā he cried out. "I believe we can change America if we do that."
On Wednesday, McPherson hosted āThe Fine Lineā at his San Diego megachurch ā the cityās largest Christian congregation and one of the fastest growing in the United States ā as part of an effort to equip and empower young people and their parents to engage on the issue of same-sex āmarriage,ā and mobilize them into action.
With only one month remaining before Californians head for the polls, pro-marriage advocates have been mobilizing believers to cast their vote for Proposition 8, the Protect Marriage Amendment, which would ban homosexual āmarriagesā in the state.
In front of an energetic crowd of Christian youth, McPherson reminded potential voters of their commitment to love God and to love their brothers and sisters ā the greatest commandment ā and also what it truly means to love.
āIf I want to be blessed, I obey God. If I want you to be blessed, I help you obey God. And if I love you ā if I really sincerely love you ā I will help you obey God. If I cause you or influence you to disobey God, that is not love; that is hate,ā he said, explaining the connection between true love and obedience.
āLove is not just you feel something and you have an emotion. Love is not based on your emotion. Itās not based on your hormones. Love is based on truth,ā he exhorted.
āAll you who have ever had a relationship, you know that sometimes you donāt feel it (your love in the relationship). You get into an argument; you have a difference,ā added McPherson, who once played professional football for the San Diego Chargers.
āYou do that (love) by obeying God. You do that by obeying according to His Word and not your emotion, not political correctness, not your feelings,ā he said.
In addition to McPherson, rally participants heard from a panel of experts who offered answers to some of the most common and hard-to-answer questions regarding the marriage issue.
When asked how same-sex āmarriageā directly affects each person in the state and even in the country, Christian apologist Sean McDowell quickly shared how āthis social reengineering of marriage will have profound implications for every single one of our lives.ā
To explain, McDowell took the example of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks seven years ago.
Though most Americans may not have known someone who was on board one of the hijacked planes or in a building that was hit, almost the entire country ā and even the world ā was affected.
āAfter 9/11, the world was a fundamentally different place, and that has affected me,ā said McDowell, whose father is popular speaker Josh McDowell.
āThe change in the redefinition of marriage is the same type of thing. It will trickle down and affect our lives,ā the panelist added.
When asked why homosexuals shouldnāt be allowed to marry according to their āorientationā while heterosexuals are, panelist Yvette Schneider of Exodus International said allowing them to marry according to their āorientation,ā or more accurately sexual preference, would open the floodgates for those who would want incestuous, pedophilic, or bestial relationships to be socially recognized. Continue >>
RSS
jcn, if young people taking a stand against sin is bigotry then I guess God is the biggest bigot of all.
The kids think they are standing for righteousness but what they do not realize is that the word homosexual does not exist in Scripture. What they are standing up for is tradition and the church has grown by breaking with the traditions that have existed.
It is interesting that these young kids know nothing about what it means to be gay or lesbian (and yet many do but won't adnmit it). I can guarantee that in that crowd there are hundereds who are wrestling with this issue and are just afraid of the reaction of their peers and their church. Down the road they will come out and see how misinformed they were.
Why are people afraid of two people of the same sex loving one another? Is that not possible in many peoples eyes or is it that gay men are only about sex? God has called us to love and to love one another. Where in world has this unjustified bigotry come into play in the church and into politics. Oh I get it it's the politics of fear.
I dont have another personality. Sorry.
Wow, now Prophet is talking to his other personality...yup, he's lost it.
Please keep the insults out of the discussion, please.
Prophet, its not a disorder, which you'd also know.
I put you down because the way you present yourself leaves so much material! You then try to crack on me, but its on things that make no sense, such as saying my responses don't make sense, when in fact you are actively trying to not understand them. Its quite pathetic and silly.
And who are you to call it a disorder? Homosexuality could be called a genetic disorder.
Not really. They are both sins.
Porphet, you claim you are a Christian, but you are actively looking for things to put me down on, things that are really quite inconsequential. I also think its funny that you crack on things I have already pointed out are your weaknesses, which again prooves my point that you thrive off the ideas of others.
Incest and homosexuality are 2 very different things which you will not let yourself understand. I have explained it plenty of times, and if you bothered to do any research into incestuous relationships compared to gay relationships, you would see the differences in terms of incestuous relationships being disordered in terms of brain chemistry.
Mike,
You said "I cant stand when a straight person says "well isn't your love enough?"
Well, I can't stand it when a homosexual says that their relationships are about love, but an incest couple relationship isn't.
Mike,
Incorrect again. I said it could happen. You said "Its not illegal to speak out about homosexuality."
I know it's not illegal to speak out against homosexuality. But someday it may. If you notice my post said "Here's another scenario that is quite possible in time."
So, again you show that you do not read what is written...you read what you want to read. That is why I asked you to re read it, but you were content to remain wrong. That's your choice, and it affects only you.
arit, I flagged you for using offensive language. To answer your question, I look at another man and think he is attractive, just as any married straight men does, but I would never want to act on it because I am in love and committed to my partner, and know that what we have as a connection could never be matched by anyone else.
In your previous post you said it will happen. I said it won't, and explained what the circumstances were in Canada (which, by the way, I don't agree with.) Prophet, of course marriage is about a bond for life! Its a shame many couples cannot pull themselves together to do that, but there is the symbolic understanding that when you are married, you make a vow "until death do us part." Yes, marriage provides 2,400 benefits which will protect me, my partner, and our future children in terms of health care, legal rights, inheritance, etc. but actual marriage is a bond that "domestic partnership" just doesn't offer. I cant stand when a straight person says "well isn't your love enough?" as if throwing us a bone to keep us quiet. Isn't love just enough for you? Why do you need to get married? You could have children with your partner outside of marriage. The answers are the same..."Because we know we're the ones for each other, because we want the legal protections."
"If anything, allowing gay marriage will strengthen morals in the country because it is giving more to the bond of love for life instead of having multiple partners for life."
When Satan tempted Eve he said (paraphrased) "Eating of that tree won't kill you, it will make you like God."
I see he still uses the same lie today. And what does marriage have to do with remaining faithful? That's the only way homosexuals can remain with one partner is if they are bound by something other than their own love? Love isn't good enough to keep them together? I know, I know...gays want the same "financial" perks that come with being married. Why don't you say that instead of saying that being married will keep homosexuals from "multiple partners" (which is a false statement). Marriage has no more to do with keeping homosexual couples together than it does with keeping heterosexual couples together. The divorce rate among homosexuals would equal that among heteros.
Mike,
You said "Its not illegal to speak out about homosexuality."
Can you please tell me where I said it was illegal?
...I am able to think critically about situations whereas you place everyone you dislike in the same box and refuse to have an honest conversation about it.
You think that adult incest relationships are gross and disgusting too. How does that make you any different from me?
I am quite satisfied with my post, thanks
How did I know you were going to say that? Probably because I know you read half a line of my comments and then make up the rest.
Please re read my previous post, and then reply with something close what I said.
Its not illegal to speak out about homosexuality. The reason the Canada case was sensationalized was because it was tied to the suicide of someone. You are trying to make things a bigger deal than they are. Incest will not become legal, as we know it harms children. Gay marriage does not effect you, it just goes against your beliefs. If anything, allowing gay marriage will strengthen morals in the country because it is giving more to the bond of love for life instead of having multiple partners for life. You look at gays as if we're some foul beings who thrive off creating chaos and hosting mass orgies, but that simply shows your ignorance to the community.
Her's another scenario that is quite possible in time. Homosexuals are given their "rights", and soon it becomes a crime to speak against homosexuality. It's already been tried in Canada. See, you think that I think that as soon as homosexuals get their rights, that all hell is going to break loose. No. It's starts slowly. Here's a couple analogies that maybe will help you understand.
Rome didn't fall in a day. Or a year. Or a decade for that fact.
How do you eat a sandwich? One bite at a time.
How do you boil a frog? Put it in the pot and slooooowly turn up the heat.
All these activists know that the "BIG steps" aren't the way to get things done. Ten little steps is much more effective then one giant step.
mike,
I know you don't think it is. Carnally minded people wouldn't think it is. It's going the way they want it. But when compared to God and His desires, yes it is very morally bankrupt.
Homosexuality does affect me. I drops this country spiritually lower, and farther from God, which in turn affects me.
Homosexual marriages become legal. And then incest (though you don't believe it, it will happen), and then transgendered want their rights, then another immoral group. I know you can't see past point A to points B, C, or whatnot. But it's there. It's one of satan's biggest lies. "Oh, let them have their way. It won't affect you. All these other things won't happen. You're just making a mountain out of a mole hill."
So, we allow it. Then all these things that people said wouldn't happen, do. Then it's too late to change our minds. The concrete is set, and we are knee deep in it.
And the concrete keeps pouring.
Here in Colorado it is legal for a man to use the women's bathroom. And vice versa. That ain't right. That is point C already...the transgendered, transexual activists getting their way.
I wouldn't say we're morally bankrupt. I think YOU think it is. The point I am trying to make is that many evangelicals feel that their beliefs should trump everyone else's, which is what happens in a theocracy. One religion rules over the country, and no one has the right to believe anything else. You are trying to make things which do not effect you, such as gay marriage, illegal because it goes against your beliefs. Why should your beliefs have power over mine when not having gay marriage will effect my life, but not yours?
Mike,
You said that this country is turning into a theocracy. Actually, this country is morally bankrupt. So you are equating "morally bankrupt" with God.
I never blamed God for the decline of the country, but many "christians" are trying to turn this country into a theocracy, starting with GW Bush. My post made perfect sense, I'm not sure you had the sense to read it.
Mike,
Oh. I just reposted it because you didn't read it the first time. Or maybe you were trying to ignore it. Whichever the case may be, your response was off, and you missed the point completely. Next time I'll just tell you to read my post again. That should clear up any confusion.
I'm wondering why someone decided to flag me. I said nothing inappropriate, nor did I copy and post like Prophet, which he was flagged for. Arit, who are you talking about?
mike2685 do you still have the hots for bruce? do tell.
"Government, while ultimately upholding a code of morals, represents all citizens, including those who choose not to believe in God."
That's it's weak spot.
"Unless we are in a theocracy, which this country is turning into..."
Far from it my friend. Unless you consider an increasing divorce rate, pornography at your fingertips, strip clubs, paganism, post-modernism, greed, rising teen suicide, rising crime rates all around, national financial ruin, etc, etc, as being a theocracy.
Please don't blame God for the declination of our once powerful country. That's man's fault, not His.
In true Christianity we give up our rights. So what's all the hubbub about rights?
igh, Jesus said give to Caesar was is Caesar's. Government, while ultimately upholding a code of morals, represents all citizens, including those who choose not to believe in God. Unless we are in a theocracy, which this country is turning into, your religion ideals cannot influence the government to the point of only giving the rights to citizens you feel God would have bestowed.
mike2685, I would be very much in favor and support strengthening domestic partnership laws since I know a number people who for a number of reasons are living in a non-sexual relationship with another person who would indeed benefit from such laws and rightfully so. Case in point is my sister-in-law who went through a very abusive realationship with her former husband and has no desire to be with a man at this point and time in her life, she shares her home with another woman who went through a similar situation and I'm sure they would benefit from such laws.
mike, True rights are expressed in what God teaches as True. When we accept this and are Truely converted, then we follow this Spirit, this line of logic and thinking in all things. Government is no less our arena of building on Righteousness then mission trips. This is a real witness when we do what Jesus did in all aspects of our lives.
True rights express the loving ways of God, and it benefits all, the Believer, and the unbeliever. But the unbeliever doesnt 'see' nor does he 'hear' but uses the True Liberties God gives for his own ends. This is a Spiritual Bondage. They do not enter life, but by there leadership lead many to eternal hellfire right along with them.
In essence, you believe in your right to have your rights expressed, but believe other's should not have a right to their rights if they go against your beliefs?
Try saying that three times fast :)
I do not believe in 'rights'
I believe in what God says is RIGHT!!
Too many call for their 'rights' "gimme this and gimme that its my right!"
The whole time not knowing what True Freedom is.
Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified."
Now listen very closely, if you do not preach LIBERTY then you preach BONDAGE!
Cleverly disguised as liberties but in reality are FALSE LIBERTIES! You go into bondage and all who follow, this means you will indeed stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgement and be damned.
Do you want this? Go and Preach the True Liberty in Christ Jesus! And build on that Eternal Rock!
2Peter 2:18 "For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through
much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus
Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
...someone gave me a thumbs down for that?
Believer, would you support those? Too often, conservatives shut down any kind of domestic partnership benefits to try to shut down homosexuality (which is quite foolish) and don't realize that they are limiting their own rights as well. Its a shame how few people truly look into political discussions.
I have heard that it was legal in Vegas. I wasn't sure if that was true. That is really sad.
" drawn the line at making prostitution "
it is legal in some places.
I thought Brian McLaren said this kind of
on-fire evangelical Christianity didn't
exist anymore?
I think one of the issues here is not whether the Bible call homosexuality sin, it's whether our government (as well as the public) calls it a sin.
Lust is a sin, but yet no one makes an issue out of porn and adult stores and stip clubs. Why? Because the government says it's okay.
I'm glad that they've drawn the line at making prostitution and drunk driving illegal (but not drunkeness which the Bible also calls a sin). But I know that many would like to make prostitution legal, which promotes adultery.
But the overall point is that the government is apparently exalted above God by many so called Christians. If they can get the government to approve of their behavior their conscience will be at ease.
I'm not sure, but I think God is the one we'll answer to when we die, not our government.
mike2685, so work on getting better domestic partnership laws passed to include those benefits and rights.
Believer, it is not for acceptance or recognition at all. I want the same rights, and domestic partnerships offer very, very few benefits compared to the benefits from marriage (I believe there are over 2,000.) If I could get those rights, or if any best friend/companion couple could, I would be fine with that and don't care about the language of it.
yes, what you either fail to see or choose not to acknowledge is that homosexual activists have an agenda in getting same-sex marriages/unions legally approved. They want their lifestyle to be accepted and approved as a legitimate lifestyle. If all they are concerned about is getting the same benefits and rights as heterosexual couples they should be pressing for domestic partnership laws which would give them the very benefits and rights they are looking for.
Yes_I_am_a_Jew said:
"igh, there's a word we Jews have for someone like you. It's schmuck. I happen to be a registered Republican, just one who ascribes to the ideas of small government and fewer taxes rather than the moral legislation. "
Um, well what about the Ten Commandments are they Moral Legislation? Should we ignore them when we consider what is Right and Wrong?
The Question i want to put to you is this:
If you dont let God work through you establish a nation built on HIS WORD, then you are building one built on YOUR WORD. Now i would rather build on the ROCK.
No one who worships God in Spirit and in Truth can separate himself from his guidance and Truth. Can we tell the Holy Spirit in us to leave when we enter a public building? OR can we tell Jesus we cannot be his Servant when in public office?
We can no more separate ourselves as God's Children and Representatives then take out our soul, mind, and heart and put them in a locker till quiting time.
Something for you to meditate on.
" it has something to do with recognition and acceptance."
That's the crux of the issue. Not simply providing benefits.
If we remove morality from law, then there is no need for law.
But I'm not going to argue about incest anymore. It's already proven how narrow minded and judgemental homosexuals are. I don't need to beat a dead horse.
Jew,
You said "There are currently no bills being proposed to allow them nor much of a public outcry to that effect. It's a red herring and you all know that."
When it is an issue in 5 or 10 years, will you be supporting it?
As the argument goes, I believe it has something to do with recognition and acceptance. That being said, I really don't care what you call it so long as the results are there. I'm a pragmatist at heart and protecting these couples and providing the same benefits and rights are what I'm concerned about, not how you name the institution.
This fight isn't going to end any time soon and the middle road would at least provide a workable status quo until there's an acceptable resolution to both sides.
yes, there are ways we can provide these benefits to not only homosexual couples, but to two people who are living together who are simply close friends and who don't have any sexual attraction to the person they are living with. Why not pass laws that allow for domestic partnerships with most if not all the benefits a married heterosexual couple receive rather than call them same-sex unions or marriages?
At its most base level, and the one that the government should be keeping most in mind when determining this matter, marriage is about being entitled to and receiving certain benefits. There is favorable tax treatment, extension of medical coverage, inheritance priority, medical proxy rights, and a host of other benefits/rights. That's what this fight is all about. Forget issues of propriety and morality, this is about conferring government benefits on couples. Benefits which Christians see fit to deprive tax paying citizens of. I repeat my assertion that denying rights to some because of your beliefs (and not theirs) is both wrong and unamerican.
Prophet: Ok. I'll say it again, as I did before. It's really easy to avoid giving a straight answer when you keep changing the topic and jumping to hardly related issues. The topic is defending marriage from the gay community, not incestuous marriages. There are currently no bills being proposed to allow them nor much of a public outcry to that effect. It's a red herring and you all know that.
Returning to the issue raised, defining marriage as about love actually creates more problems than fewer. Depending on how we define love then that could open the door for your parade of horribles including people marrying children, household appliances, animals and, heaven forbid, consenting adults of their same gender.
I just don't understand the big deal about defining marriage as the following: "The consensual union between two adult humans who are not related, or if related no closer than 1st cousin (which is the general legal standard for incest/non-incest)."
Jew,
No. The point I'm making is this. You, and homosexuals, say that marriage is about more than procreation...it's about love. But yet, when it comes to incestuous marriages it's suddenly about procreation. I see a double standard among the homosexuals. It's one way with them, but another standard with others.
igh, there's a word we Jews have for someone like you. It's schmuck. I happen to be a registered Republican, just one who ascribes to the ideas of small government and fewer taxes rather than the moral legislation. But I suppose that the easiest and least thought intensive response to a question regarding the unamerican habits of pushing your religion on everyone else is to fire back commie accusations.
Prophet, let me get this straight because it seems like a tautology. Marriage is about more than procreation, it's about love. Add to that the belief that gays shouldn't be allowed to marry. So if I understand you correctly, either gays are not people, or are incapable of love, or both? Although you may not agree with it, or question the purity thereof, it really is an untenable argument that gays are incapable of loving one another. Suppose that a longtime gay couple is unable to engage in sex, due to illness or injury, what else would their relationship be based upon? Are we to assume that they remain together to subtly poison the minds of youths and denigrate society? That would be absurd. So assuming that they can experience love, and love is a cornerstone of and purpose for marriage why then, other than the whole "the bible is against it" line of arguing (which has ZERO PLACE in political discussions regarding individual rights), should they not be allowed to marry?
Oh yes, throw out the slippery slope argument, again. I can tell you that at least 8 out of 10 serial killers wake up and have breakfast each morning. Should we then get rid of breakfast because it leads the way to killing people? Quit trying to "save" people by making them miserable. When it comes to the gay community, just leave them to their "ultimate fate" and feel morally superior to them. We'll all thank you for doing so.
Incest couples have to procreate? They can't adopt?
OK Prophet, so then you just came up with another reason why incest is not normal. I have never said marriage is not about procreation, but I have said procreation is not the only reason to be married. Many couples choose not to have children, but they can still get married. Incestual couples who get married have the ability to procreate, which will harm their children, which is why I am against it. Homosexuality will not lead to moral decline, and you offer no proof, whatsoever, to back up your statements (as usual.)
And yes, homosexuality is the one of the first steps towards moral decline in the world. It's not the only, but it's one of them.
Mike,
Your language and attitude show your true colors.
You're comment about why incest was done away with is merely conjecture.
"Some researchers hypothesize that humans have a kin recognition ability that functions in part to enable incest avoidance between close relatives, thereby protecting the gene pool of the family or tribe from excessive damage by inbreeding; and, that this kin recognition system may form a biological basis for social and psychological prohibitions against incest. Lieberman et al...found that childhood co-residency with an opposite-sex sibling (biologically related or not) was significantly correlated with moral repugnance toward third-party sibling incest."
And, as you've pointed out numerous times, marriage is not about procreation. It's about love. So, again, your argument falls flat.
igh, gay marriage does not open the door to hell and turn everyone's moral compass to $h!t. People know pedophilia hurts children, people know an animal cannot consent to sex or marriage. We are talking about 2 law abiding, consenting adults entering into a union with no negative effects to themselves or others. You are trying to bring in all these other groups and act as if we're the same because you want to scare people, but its simply not true. NAMBLA, the national association for man-boy love, claims a membership of about 1,000 people. That is compared to the 750,000 HRC has, let alone the countless other marriage groups throughout the US. NAMBLA will not make progress, because we know that their message is harmful to children.
"the airplanes sin. Afterall, by your definition they go against God's design (gravity, for one.)"
Actually, gravity is a very important part to flight. It is a key component when flying and you use God's design of gravity to increase or decrease altitude. Plus, I don't see anywhere in the Bible where God says flying is 'disgusting' to Him as He says about homosexuality.
So, no...flying is not against God's design. In fact, He never says anything about it. There is one exception where in Rev it is written about the 'birds' with fire and markings. Quite and accurate discription of an F class fighter for someone trying to make sense of one 2000 years ago.
"burned at the stake (somewhat metaphorical to what you are attempting to do now!)"
My concern isn't with burning you here. My concern is that God will send you to burn somewhere! It is the same concern I have for all men. The Apostle Paul wrote to examine yourself to see that you are in the faith. I have the same concern for those who go to church every Sunday and sing in the choir as I do for you.
You've heard the ends justify the means? I think that the end is the end and we better have done it God's way!
mike2685 said:
"gay marriages do not harm anyone because they can only adopt, which has been studied and shown that the children are much better off in the care of a loving household, "
You very well know that the gay movement and lobbyists are Holding the door wide open for those who you may not consider gay.
Bi-sexuals
Bi-curious
Curious
Transvestites
Trans-allies
Transgendered
Trans
Omnisexuals
Beastiality
Multiple partner marriages of all kinds.
Peadophiles.
Now you may protest the peadophile on the list but over the years i have seen peadophile advocates working with the gay movement.
Should all these on the list be able to adopt? Yes or No.
Are they all normal by your best understanding? Yes or No.
Should there be regulations adopted by our law makers to reflect what is acceptable in our society? I am saying where would they draw the line?
âĆ¢āĀ¬Ć āThen dominoes start happening,âĆ¢āĀ¬ĆĀ he continued, noting how Satan understands how to break down the family and break down the culture.
Why are we giving so much credit to Satan? Do we not serve the Living God? Do He promise and not fulfill?
God blesses and holds marriage together (under Him) when we do what He has instructed us to do. God sets the example that we are to follow. As God was faithful in sending His Son to the Church, so should we be faithful to God's word on marriage. Remember not all things that are allowed are not blessed by God. All marriage are not ordained by Him.
Prophet, they accepted incest before they realized the birth defects. Incestual marriages were made illegal after they saw the soveriegn lines that went crazy due to incest. Gay marriage was made illegal because of Christian emperors. There is a big difference there, one which you are refusing to acknowledge. Incestual relationships (which you seem quite stuck on) produce children with defects, gay marriages do not harm anyone because they can only adopt, which has been studied and shown that the children are much better off in the care of a loving household, be it same or opposite sex parents, than stuck in foster care. I have said the same thing over and over about incest, and you keep trying to twist my words and somehow connect these two issues. There is no connection other than, as I am a Jew said, Christians outlaw them both.
Is it that, since the Romans thought that homosexual marriages were okay, that they should still be okay?
If that is your line of thinking, then incest marriages, again, should be okay...since the Romans accepted them as well.
Mike,
"It is generally accepted that incestuous marriages were widespread at least during the Graeco-Roman period of Egyptian history. Numerous papyri and the Roman census declarations attest to many husbands and wives being brother and sister."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest
So what's your point?
You're right, though. There is no evidence that siblings want the right to marry. 20 years ago, there was no evidence that homosexuals wanted to marry. 20 years from now I may be having a discussion with a someone about incest marriages on a article about the pro-incest right to marry. But honestly, 20 years is a little far fetched. I would say between 5-10 years we'll be hearing from other groups.
DP, the airplanes sin. Afterall, by your definition they go against God's design (gravity, for one.) Prophet, again, you put words in my mouth about incest and refuse to show any evidence because you know there is none. Gay marriage is actually documented in the early Roman Empire, although Constantine had it made illegal and ordered anyone found guilty of gay marriage to be burned at the stake (somewhat metaphorical to what you are attempting to do now!)
Yes_I_am_a_Jew , forgive me , but are you a communist?
yes, that may be true that laws will be passed that allow for same-sex marriages or unions, but that doesn't change the fact that God's Word clearly condemns the sexual practices of the homosexual lifestyle. As for them being treated as 2nd class citizens that is not the case for me and others who come to this site at all. We see them as we see ourselves as sinners who need to repent of their sin and sinful lifestyle and turn to Christ.
"DP: Homosexuality is not an addiction, hence, a 12 step program cannot and will not work. Way to try and compare them though.
Penitent, the relationship I have with my partner is not solely sexual. If we built our relationship on sex, we would not still be together."
Sin is anything that does not conform to God's design...period. That is what sin is. Sin is what is not subject to His rule and design. All mankind is addicted to sin. This is why we must be set free from it.
It doesn't matter what all you have added or have in your relationship with your partner. If it doesn't conform to God's rule and design then it is sin. You have a strong desire to maintain and stay in that non-conforming relationship. You are addicted to it.
And yes...I am addicted to my wife. Addiction in and of itself is not an issue. Being addicted to something that does not conform to God's rule and design is a problem.
yes_I_am_a_Jew,
" the issue is same sex relationships, not the longevity of "marriages.""
That is too narrow of a view. The issue is doing what God wants. This will translate into doing what is best for individuals and for society.
You made a statement that marriage is not under the purview of dangerous social developments. I gave one reason why degradation of marriage is a dangerous social development. As more and more people move towards the sins of homosexuality and abortion, less and less people will be born. This translates to less people being available to support society as it ages. This translates to fewer services available to people as a whole and the elderly and disadvantaged in particular.
"you just addressed divorce rates. If anything, gay marriage will help those go down! Gay marriage will harm no one. "
Mike, I addressed statement by yes_I_am_a_Jew that "The issue is that the "marriage" issue is just outside the purview of dangerous social developments."
In fact, I have shown that marriage IS in the purview of dangerous social developments.
And if the history of homosexual relationships is used to measure likelihood of reducing the divorce rate, then no it is not likely to reduce it, but increase it.
Jew,
Mike and I have already covered that issue. He says that marriage is not about sex, so children aren't an issue. Besides, like homosexuals, if they want children they can adopt. So, yes, Mike refusing to extend the same rights to incestuous marriages isn't so much about logic as it is about his own personal distaste for such a union.
Prophet, minor point to raise. A large issue with incest is concerns of birth defects in the ensuing children. Gays can't have children together. Again, the only connection you're drawing betwixt the two is the sin/"eeeew gross-factor" and that's rather tenuous.
Again, when you have a Christian nation, Christianity can set the rules. Until such a day we still have the constitution and a sense of equal rights for all. [As always, please refrain from the lame argument of this nation was formed under christian ideals or if we don't follow our morals everyone will run around raping horses and blaspheming.]
Mike
You said "I'd like to see you come back with some evidence showing reports of marriage petitions for brothers and sisters"
I will...if you show me reports of marriage petitions for homosexuals from 20 years ago.
Things change, bro. People were saying the same thing about the idea of gay marriages that you are saying about incest marriages today.
igh, I don't see the point you're attempting to make. Yes, they're either homosexual or transgendered/transexual. Considering that this is a site for Trans-Health is that such a shock? Am I to be mortified that they have organized to discuss health? And for the record, if this is a poor attempt to point to the "conspiracy" your feeble attempts are not worthy of further response.
WB, the issue is same sex relationships, not the longevity of "marriages." There is no way that the US will ever prohibit divorce as a matter of public policy. It is one of those things that we have to accept as a cost of living in the greatest nation in the world where people have certain freedoms.
Believer, with respect to your distinction of private tolerance vs. public condoning I'm afraid that I will have to send along, to you and the rest of the Christian community, a big tough...tomatoes. No group gets to deprive another group, arbitrarily, of a reasonably expected right incidental to citizenship, especially when the arbitrarily selected group is not impinging on the rights of others. To allow otherwise would permit the Jewish Conspiracy to get together and decree that marriage is only to be between a man and a woman, both of whom are Jewish. Seems pretty arbitrary to me and I could say that, in lines with my religious teachings, that allowing Christianity starts a slippery slope towards allowing Satanism because Judaism is the one true religion and if everything else is frowned upon then surely Christianity must lead to Satanism.
Let's drop the act and accept as a given what the actual truth is. For whatever reason, allegedly because of "religious belief", the gays are less than people and are undeserving of their rights as tax paying citizens. Moreover, despite the clear and constitutionally guaranteed separation of church and state, vehement attempts are being made to ensure that this religiously derived notion is enshrined in the law. Truly an example of religion being employed, not for the benefit of but rather, the the detriment of society.
Yes_I_am_a_Jew go here:
http://www.trans-health.org/about/committee
Go here and read the bios.
WB, you just addressed divorce rates. If anything, gay marriage will help those go down! Gay marriage will harm no one. Every other instance you described hurt someone in the physical or emotional. Saying gay marriage will harm you because it is a sin is of no importance to the law.
You have strayed from God, and commited whoredom with this world. Exactly the same if you were married and commited adultery, you have broken your covenant.
Psalm 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.
Now because you have strayed you will not be rewarded but punished. Walking in darkness and being used by satan to publish lies as Truth, darkness as light, bitter as sweet.
That is the danger mike2685 of homosexuality, it leads all into darkness who support it and involved into it.
Romans chapter 1 and 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 make it perfectly clear you will be delivered over to destruction and all who support it.
Deeper deeper deeper is the darkness of the hearts and minds of those who go whoring on God.
This cannot be changed unless you repent right now on your knees , broken and humble, accepting all the Truth of God.
Then God knows you Truely love him.
Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Gen 22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine
only son from me.
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and
Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
yes, what people do in the privacy of their home with rare exception is their own business, what many Christians are opposed to is the passing of laws that would either directly or indirectly condone sinful practices that willfully violate the Word of God. There is absolutely nothing stopping homosexuals from having sexual intimacy with each other, but when they wants laws to be based that would endorse sinful lifestyles as declared in the Word of God we must let our voices be heard in these matters.
The issue is that the "marriage" issue is just outside the purview of dangerous social developments."
No, its not. It has been shown that the easing of divorce laws to make it easy to obtain divorce has increased the divorce rate. This has increased the number of children of single parents. This has increased poverty. This has increased crime. This has incrased the number of people in jail and hurt by crime (physically, emotionally, and financially). The increase in divorce has also caused children of divorced people more likely to get divorced themselves, or not marry at all. This in turn has increased the number of people born out of wedlock, which increases the number of single parent homes, and the cycle continues.
God sets rules for human interaction for a reason.
I think Mike is working towards the point I'm making. The main concern is that in the process of legislating from religious norms the rights of an individual outside that belief system and superstructure could have his individual rights infringed for an activity that does not adversely affect any other non-willing adult participant. Why have laws against making porn available to kids? Because they're kids! Once you're of legal age, you can get all the porn you want. That was a decision based upon notions of maturity and propriety rather than a strict religious dictate. We all get that you're thoroughly convinced that your religious paradigms are the one and true TRUTH. That doesn't make it the case for everyone and as such, those views should not be imposed on society at large. I eagerly anticipate the day when someone brushes off a copy of the old testament and its teachings on slavery and attempts to reinstitute slavery. It's in the bible, or so I'm told, and since you can't pick and choose what to believe in the bible you're stuck having to oppress segments of society because the bible says to do so.
But seriously folks, doesn't it seem un-American to be decreeing how citizens should privately live their lives? America was founded in order to escape religious persecution by the masses. What happens after everyone's settled in? The ones who got here first start to occupy the position of the majority and proceed to push their religious views down the throats of the minorities.
Just since I know this is coming, having been around here long enough, this is not a proposal to abolish all laws or protections for individuals or society in general. There are easily ascertainable wrongs that may be perpetrated against others which should and must be regulated and controlled. The issue is that the "marriage" issue is just outside the purview of dangerous social developments. That 2 CONSENTING NON-RELATED HUMAN ADULTS choose to enter into a relationship is of no major significance or importance to society. The genders of the people in the relationship are fungible for governing purposes, and moreover should be, specifically for taxes and benefits. I would sooner burn the bible, or in my case the torah, page by page than tell the "partner" of a dying gay man that he may not visit his dying "partner" in the hospital or inherit with more priority than a family that disowned their gay child.
I don't even care about the terminology marriage or union or partnership or "gaylationship." The equal treatment of American citizens is my main sticking point and whosoever decides that their religion is valid grounds for depriving a citizen of his rights is a damned poor American.
There are plenty of people who would like to believe that no one is harmed through viewing pornography. There are plenty would would like to believe no one is hurt in abuse. There are plenty who would like to believe that no one is harmed in drug usage. There are plenty who would like to believe that no one is harmed in sex outside of marriage. There are plenty who would like to believe no one is harmed in homosexual sex.
Because sex outside of marriage and homosexual sex are sin, both partners participating in it would be hurt, as well as anyone who thought it would be a good thing to do simply because they know others who do it.
feet, and what is it that I am not willing actually to do?
feet, because of your perverted views of the Word of God you can choose to live a lifestyle that is totally contrary to the Word of God, but that does not and will not justify in the sight of God and the saddest thing is there is a good chance you are leading people astray with those views and quite possibly leading them to make both false professions of faith and living lives that are not pleasing to God.
feet, yes they were willing and desired to live their lives according to the Word of God and that's why they decided to do the right thing in the sight of God. I've also confronted those who did not want to live according to the standards of Christian living as contained in God's Word and in many cases they left our church.
WB: in every instance of law you suggested, it is clear who would be hurt by those actions of the laws were not in place. Tell me, who would be hurt by gay marriage?
Prophet: Incest and homosexuality are 2 very different topics. If you think they're on the same playing field, I'd like to see you come back with some evidence showing reports of marriage petitions for brothers and sisters, or that they have suddenly increased in states where gay marriage is legal.
If you do not believe one should encourage legislation that reflect your morals, then by all means, do so. However, this does not hold water. Why should there be laws against porn being available to children? Why should there be laws against guns in schools? Why should there be laws against intoxication in public or while driving? Why should there be laws against abuse or violence or incest? Why should there be laws against suicide?
Some of these are to protect the individuals who would be intentional victims. Some of these are to protect the people who would be unintentional victims. Some of these are to protect the person who would be committing the crime. These are based upon morals. These morals are based upon something. What makes it OK to use certain morals as a basis for laws and not religious ones? Simply because you do not like the idea of religious morals being codified as law. But it is OK to use morals based upon anything else to codify morals as law. This is hypocrisy.
I'll try to keep my comments brief since they will likely not be well received or even given time for reflection and thought.
First, it is a little disappointing that the usual refrain of bestiality, incest and pedophilia have to accompany any gay rights discussion. It makes it very hard to engage in any kind of reasonable discourse on the subject when a parade of horribles is attached to homosexuality. The only things in common that they share are that they involve sex and Christians are against them. Much like the "Jewish Conspiracy" a lot of this gay agenda business is in your collective head. Any actual organized effort are likely a movement from the gay community to push back against what they see as a concerted offensive, so as not to be pushed back into the closet or exterminated.
Second, this is again a woeful example of people failing to realize that their religious beliefs and values are best kept as social mores than public policy. Thankfully (if you ask me) government in the US is intended to operate exclusive of religion. As such, any argument based upon the holy bible should be irrelevant for the purposes of determining law. If you want to excommunicate gay members of your church, go ahead; HOWEVER, don't bring your bibles into the state capital and dictate how others can enjoy their rights as citizens. So long as the relationship is between TWO CONSENTING NON-RELATED ADULT HUMANS then there should be no impediment from the law. Clearly this is an intentional move but many of the concerns of the conservative ideology with slippery slopes could be handled easily with some clear and definitive drafting of the law.
When you love someone, you love all the things about that person, and that fills you up with happiness. They fit you like a customed made set of clothes. True there is a learning curve but that's ok your heart is hers, and hers is yours.
When we say we Love God its because of all the wonderful things about him we adore.
If we say we Love him and do not love the things about him we are a liar. You are
Just 'using' God for our own ends. Like lying to a woman to get what you want.
No difference really.
The Bible is God. God written down in ink.
Jesus completely Represented his Father, saying all he heard from his Father, and doing all he saw his Father doing.
Love all that is written there, everything about him or your just 'using' God for your own ends.
Deuteronomy 7:9 " Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deu 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. "
Mike,
I can't believe that your only response to incestuous marriages is "you're just using a scare tactic."
Who am I trying to scare?
those you confronted were in agreement with you. and it was another fish on friday kind of belief........ marry so we can openly indulge in sexual intimacy . i am assuming that because they were considering living together, they had already shared sexual intimacy. however OPENLY living together would violate the law of descretion and therefore open them up to recrimination, and tweak their own consciences.
what comparison does that have with those, whose differing belief says that their living out supporting the orientation of homosexuality is of god.
i see no comparison with you were postuating and what you were willing to actually do.
feet, I worked for a hospice that had two lesbian nurses who I highly respected who knew how I felt and what I believe the Bible taught about their lifestyle. And I had an excellent working relationship with both of them. And to the best of my knowledge they were the only two homosexuals I worked that professed to be Christians.
feet, what part of "I'll give you ONE example" do you not understand?
Mike
"Also, Prophet was attempting to bring up incestuous relationships, which are in no way tied to homosexuality and are not organized to create an incestual marriage movement, so those scare tactics can be laid to rest"
Actually, no they can not. Abusers, polygamists, and incestuous folks are riding the tail coats of homosexual and transgendered folks.
"Someone who beats or rapes another person is not loving them, they are seeking power"
Whether they are seeking power does not invalidate the "love" they claim to feel. You said love is not sin. I said expressions of love outside what God has said is acceptable are sin. I gave examples of this, which you attempted to invalidate, because they are analogous to the love homosexuals express towards each other.
"I would agree that someone who is having an affair is sinning, but because they breaking their vow of love to another person"
It is sin because God said it was, not because of some reason outside what God said.
"My whole point about free will is that we're not really free to make choices if God already knows exactly what we will choose from the time we are born."
God is outside His creation (including space and time) and so is able to see whatever happens the instant it happens. His plan includes all possible choices we will make. However, for at lest some, I think it is true that God creates some to be destined to do things He wants done, while others are destined to do things He does not want but He knows will occur. An example of the former is Jesus, Luke 2:34 . An example of the latter would be Judas Iscariat. Matthew 26:56 "But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets."
Mike,
"my sexual relationship is not the be all and end all with my partner"
Never said it was. You said your relationship has nothing to do with sex, I pointed out it does.
"Yes, I am sexually attracted, but if neither of us could have sex, the relationship would still be there because it is based on love, not sex"
If it is love, it is still against what God has said, since it is man for man with sexual attraction, which God has said is a no-no.
"You attempt to rebuke me, but you do not know me or anything about me, although you assume a lot and attempt to "rebuke me" on those grounds"
No, I rebuke you based upon what you have written, that homosexual sex is acceptable to God. It is not.
"If you think homosexuality is wrong because of Leviticus, I would challenge your knowledge of the Bible (don't tell me out of all of Leviticus, homosexuality is the only thing we take from it, yet ignore everything about slavery and how to plant crops) "
Now, that's not quite true. It is from the Law that we know what sin is. The moral laws are used daily, even by non-believers. Romans 7:9 tells us that when we know the difference between right and wrong, we die spiritually.
Additionally, Romans 1-2 tells us to not put your own thoughts before God's, and calls homosexual sex and desire (among other things) bad.
Just a Thought on how God does things.
Jesus Said:
Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
"feet, prior to becoming a Director of Missions, I was a Pastor and had to on a number of occassions go to a brother or sister who was willfully sinning, but I will give you one example. I had a couple who were thinking of getting married and found a house they wanted to move into prior to their wedding and they were going to go ahead and move into the house and live together prior to getting married. I called and asked him how he was going to make right with God what he and her were about to do, I heard a sigh of relief and he said they had been struggling with that, but didn't know what to do since they were planning a big wedding a year later. What we did was had a private service in my office and then they had the big wedding a year later, but most importantly they did what was right in the sight of God and others. "
do you mean to tell me that after all your comments about vocally confronting a brother about sin............this is all you have..........................this is it!
apparently all those comments about confrontation have been merely subjective theorizing in order to validate the way you chose to deal with the issue of homosexuality.
but they have no bearing or relationship to reality in dealing with sin in the body by you and those who agree with you. in truth it is only to be used in regards tio the sin of homosexuality. and even then it mostly either in your head or in conversations with those who agree with you.
i would be willing to guess that you have never confronted a homosexual believer or non believer as a brother, looked him in the eye, face to face, and told him he was sinning.
the confrontation statement is to give license to obsess about it. but the confrontation you are speaking of, you and those who agree with you really have no intention of ever doing it.
well that paste isnt working well, but the verse is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, check it out
DonâĆ¢āĀ¬Ć¢āĀ¢t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? DonâĆ¢āĀ¬Ć¢āĀ¢t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat peopleâĆ¢āĀ¬Ć¢ā¬Ānone of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.
mike2685, please stop trying to twist my words and more importantly God's Word. What you asked was if God knows people will do evil things why would He create them not why would He make them do those things. And my answer was that God does things that don't make any sense by human standards, but He is God and He doesn't have to answer to any of us and He does indeed know what He is doing. And while God's plans will be realized He does not make any one willfully do evil things people choose to sin and do evil things.
mike2685, yes, if my wife and I could no longer have sexual intercourse we would still stay with one another becuase even though we might miss that there is so much more to our relationship than just that, but even if we could not have sexual intercourse we can still have sexual intimacy. God's Word in both the Old and New Testament says that this type of intimacy is to be reserved for one man and one woman united to one another through marriage alone. As long as one is having any type of sexual intimacy outside of those paramemters that person is living in sin.
WB, my sexual relationship is not the be all and end all with my partner. Yes, I am sexually attracted, but if neither of us could have sex, the relationship would still be there because it is based on love, not sex. You attempt to rebuke me, but you do not know me or anything about me, although you assume a lot and attempt to "rebuke me" on those grounds. If you think homosexuality is wrong because of Leviticus, I would challenge your knowledge of the Bible (don't tell me out of all of Leviticus, homosexuality is the only thing we take from it, yet ignore everything about slavery and how to plant crops...) Also, Prophet was attempting to bring up incestuous relationships, which are in no way tied to homosexuality and are not organized to create an incestual marriage movement, so those scare tactics can be laid to rest. Someone who beats or rapes another person is not loving them, they are seeking power. I would agree that someone who is having an affair is sinning, but because they breaking their vow of love to another person. My whole point about free will is that we're not really free to make choices if God already knows exactly what we will choose from the time we are born. If God knows we will make bad choices through life and eventually go to hell, then in essence he is creating someone to be an evil being.
Mike wrote, "my sex life with my partner has nothing to do with our relationship, nor is it any of your business."
Anyone who believes a relationship with someone to whom they are sexually attracted has nothing to do with sex is deceived.
As to whether the sins of someone who claims to be a Christian is the business of another Christian is addressed in the Bible.
Luke 17:3 (also see Galatians 6:1, James 5:16)
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Mike wrote, "the gay community is huge and has lobbyists, verses the incestual community who has how many people?"
And that makes homosexual sex right? Not in God's eyes.
Leviticus 18:22 (also see Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:25-27)
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable
1 Thes 4:3-8
3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
Homosexual sex is a sexual sin. Everyone should avoid sexual sin. They will be punished for it.
Mike wrote, "if God knows everything, he knows whether or not that person will accept him. that isn't free will"
God makes it possible for men to choose Him on His terms. It is their choice to do so or not.
Mike wrote, "Love cannot be a sin."
Love can be twisted. Any expression of love that goes against what God said is good is a sin.
Examples: A man can love a woman and rape her, this is sin. A person can love someone and beat them, this is sin. A man can love a woman and have sex outside of marriage, this is sin. A man can love a man and have sex, this is sin.
Mike wrote, "where in the bible does it support having sex just for intimacy without the goal of having children?"
Marriage helps prevent sexual immorality.
1 Corinthians 7:2
But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each womanher own husband
Mike wrote, "God creates people to do evil things as a part of his plan?"
God creates man. Men make choices which have consequences. Sometimes God influences those choices, yet it is still the person who makes the choice, and it is still the person who will have to answer for his own choices. God uses those choices in His plan.
It's a good thing I don't put my trust in man. God is my judge. He has ordained and called me to speak the truth. To which I submit. Not always willingly, especially when I am verbally accosted for speaking His Word. But I know that in that Day, I will hear Him say "Well done, my good and faithful servant."
The only acceptance I desire is that from the One who is eternal, all knowing, all powerful.
He can change the heart of the homosexual, but only if they desire to be changed.
Christianity isn't easy. It's not a vacation. It's not a spectator sport. It's a war. And those who refuse to engage in this war will be trampled under.
Name another group of people in love who are no hurting anyone, since you brought it up...I can't wait to hear this!
Your slander is only harming your soul, not mine, as you are spreading blatant untruths, which anyone who reads these posts can see.
He says love is nothing about sex...its about a relationship. But yet refuses to extend that same view to siblings and romantic, loving relationships that aren't hurting anyone else.....
So we see that mike is not only not a Christian, but narrowminded and exclusive.
so then God creates people to do evil things as a part of his plan?!?
I asked you to provide me first, because if sex isn't always for procreation, then sex for intimacy is an OK thing. If the Bible says sex for intimacy is only for straights, tell me where.
mike2685, because He's God and has a reason for everything and He know what He's doing.
mike2685, please tell me where the Bible says that sexual intimacy is for pro-creation only. Plus, if you're right you and your partner are in a heap of trouble if you're having sex since there is absolutely no way you can sexually pro-create.
because he already knows what will happen. If he loves us, why would he create someone knowing they're going to do something like fly a plane into a building?
mike2685, how is it not free will since God is not forcing anyone to either accept Him or reject Him.
where in the bible does it support having sex just for intimacy without the goal of having children?
mike2685, no, my wife and I are no longer capable of having children since she had surgery for another issue, but we still have and enjoy sexual intimacy with each other and as I said it is very much a part of our relationship as husband and wife.
but if God knows everything, he knows whether or not that person will accept him. that isn't free will
No, its not, but its very different from sexual orientation, despite what you try to stretch it as. You choose to love your sibling and have that relationship, as I choose to have a relationship with my partner. I do not choose to be gay, however.
mike2685, how God chooses to free someone from a sinful lifestyle is between Him and that person, but before He can do it they must acknowledge their sin or sinful lifestyle and desire to turn from that sin or sinful lifestyle.
Mike,
So love and romantic relations between adult siblings is okay in your eyes?
* oops, meant "believer" not prophet
Prophet, so everytime you have sex you do it to have children? Thats what sex is for, according to you.
prophet, their relationship produces children with birth defects. If they are in love and want to adopt children, fine, there are plenty of children who need adopting, but I think you're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill (the gay community is huge and has lobbyists, verses the incestual community who has how many people?)
I don't remember God talking about freeing me via a Bible based 12 step program. That sounds like something you want to happen.
mike2685, how can your sex life with your partner have nothing to do with your relationship. I can tell you that my sex life with my wife has plenty to do with our relationship and vice-versa.
"The ability to produce children doesn't define the love of that couple."
Wow. You just contradicted yourself. The ability to produce children doesn't define the love of that couple. So you do agree that love between adult siblings is acceptable since it has nothing to do with procreation (using your own words).
mike2685, you're right it is not my business, but it is certainly God's business and God calls the sexual practices of homosexuality sin. And God desires to release you from those sinful practices and can use a Bible-based 12 Step Program to help you.
Prophet, way to ignore the fact that you did in fact ask a question. Lesbians can be inseminated, and gay couples can adopt the hundreds of thousands of children in need of a stable home environment. If you want to mock that, why don't you mock the couples who can't have children. What kind of children do they produce? The ability to produce children doesn't define the love of that couple.
Mike,
Again, you present absolutely nothing. What kind of kids do homosexuals create?
believer, my sex life with my partner has nothing to do with our relationship, nor is it any of your business.
Yea, I have: adults in incestuous relationships create children with birth defects, without question. That is why they should not be in a relationship. My partner and I harm no one. You have not presented any evidence that we do, nor will you be able to.
mike2685, you can choose to not have sex with your partner and if you struggle with that a 12 Step Program can be used of God to help you overcome that sinful behavior which is what the Word of God declares it to be.
Goodnight. Tell the Truth in Love.
Prophet: Mike, do you believe the story of Noah is literal?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is a question. This makes me wonder if you read your own posts.
Mike,
Since you insist on regurgitating the same old rhetoric let me regurgitate something to which you've never given an intelligent response to.
You said "I have no reason to not love my partner, as love can only create good things."
And yet adults involved in incest relationships say the same thing. And you condemn them.
Wow. I didn't even ask a question, but yet mike insists that I did. It makes me wonder if he truly reads any of our posts.
If the world falls into rubble because of banking failures world wide, lost assets, wars, etc.. This may be where satan makes his move. He will rise up and be made world ruler. You can't make a case against Scripture.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
igh, if you truly believe gay marriage and the trans community are darkness, I would challenge you to look outside your window. I teach in an area where kids joke about the sounds of gunshots outside their window. We are a heartbeat away from the next great depression. People wage wars in the name of God and spread lies about other faiths to try and make theirs more viable. Those are darkness, not my partner and I who love each other.
Believer, 12 step programs change a behavior which is changeable. I have no reason to not love my partner, as love can only create good things, and it does for my partner and I. 12 Step programs are for harmful things, such as alcoholism or gambling. My love for my partner is not destroying my life, nor will it.
Prophet: I have already answered that question. I suggest you go find the answer for yourself.
If homosexuality is "not a choice" then neither is heterosexuality. But it's still a choice on whether I engage in it. Just because I am attracted to a woman, doesn't mean it's a sin. It's the acting upon. The action of homosexuality is a sin. God can deliver a homosexual from that bondage, just as he can cause someone who was born blind to see. Or someone who was born lame to walk again. But homosexuals like their sin. They don't want to change. So they make themselves a god and a bible to suit their sin.
I will be online. I start fasting shortly before voting day.
(With only one month remaining before Californians head for the polls, pro-marriage advocates have been mobilizing believers to cast their vote for Proposition 8, the Protect Marriage Amendment, which would ban homosexual âĆ¢āĀ¬Ć āmarriagesâĆ¢āĀ¬ĆĀ in the state.)
Brethren,
Pray for us Christians here in California who will be voting (Yes) on prop 8; may the Lord stir up his people to stand upon his Word and ONCE AGAIN reiterate that marriage is only between a man and a woman.
mike2685, you've never provided valid data to show that homosexuality is not a choice and even if it were you still have to choose to participate in the sexual practices of homosexuality and where ever choice is involved a 12 Step Program is a viable option to help a person overcome that behavior. Sex be it heterosexual or homosexual, be it physical or lust of the mind are always a choice unless a person is forced to participate. So 12 Step Programs are a feasible way to deal with inappropriate or sinful sexual behavior.
mike2685 said:
"Igh, you literally made me laugh with the thought that the longer I am gay, the darker my deeds. You're right, this morning it was a massage for my partner, tomorrow it'll be a mass killing spree. What moronic thinking! What saddens me is the other folks on this website are probably nodding their heads in agreement, as if I am some sort of beast because I am in love with a man."
You don't understand the spirit of darkness is coming on this whole world. Soon the Restrainer will be removed and satan will rise and take control of the earth and its inhabitants...
The more gay is accepted the darker it will become. As the years pass, more and more perversion will be accepted as normal, because of your not Loving the Truth, you will feel obligated, and they also will help you in getting all the legal recognition you desire. One example is transgendered, transexual, transvestites, omnisexuals (not sure what that is exactly)they want complete acceptance too. And they ride your coat-tails as you well know. Complete acceptance not only in society but in the church. All the legal rights you want they want too.
www.mlp.org
www.erinswen.com
www.transfaithonline.org
here is some of the committee members of this website: http://www.trans-health.org/about/committee
do you know what they are even?
Yes things will get weirder and scarier as the years pass. It is Prophecy. Romans chapter 1. Darkness will creap over the whole earth.
Mike, do you believe the story of Noah is literal?
Mike,
You said "Not to mention, I respond to the person who wrote last. You attempt to jump in and personally attack me, regardless of the discussion going on."
If you are talking about the phrase "Well thanks for adding something original to the conversation there sport!" You did respond to the person who wrote last....me. So that comment was directed at me, to which I didn't "jump in and personally attack you". I responded to a comment made to me.
Not to mention, I respond to the person who wrote last. You attempt to jump in and personally attack me, regardless of the discussion going on.
Not true...you can "slice" the Bible in the way I am interpretting, or you can "slice" it literally, as you and believer do.
Mike,
Sorry to disappoint you. That wasn't a put down. I was making an observation.
Point is this...no matter how you slice and dice the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. And as far as your "faith in God", all that is is a faith in a god you created that is nothing like Y'weh.
Typical prophet: you're not even smart enough to think up a "put down" without using something i have already said against me.
Believer, not everything in life is cured by a 12 step program. "I have cancer" ..."Oh, use the 12 step program!"
"My daughter is mentally retarded." "Oh, put her on the 12 step program!"
Homosexuality is not a choice, and its quite clear no matter what I say, how I phrase it, or what evidence I provide, you will make up an excuse as to why it is sinful or can't be trusted.
Igh, you literally made me laugh with the thought that the longer I am gay, the darker my deeds. You're right, this morning it was a massage for my partner, tomorrow it'll be a mass killing spree. What moronic thinking! What saddens me is the other folks on this website are probably nodding their heads in agreement, as if I am some sort of beast because I am in love with a man.
Y'all can say what you want, but I DO have faith in God, and faith that he will lead me where he needs me. So far, I have learned a lot about persecution and helping those who are persecuted by being gay, and I truly thank God for it. Perhaps he will use me to adopt a child so in need of love next, that is, unless you decide it couldn't possibly be his plan and make it illegal.
God took woman out of man. Marriage and love is the union of those two spirits. Anything else is an abomination.
mike,
You said "Well thanks for adding something original to the conversation there sport!"
Um...you haven't added anything original to your lies. It's all the same twisted interpretation of the scriptures that you spew out.
I'm sorry that the Bible and God don't change with the times or man's morals. It does tick some "Christians" off that God doesn't change or bend to meet their desires.
God is eternal, unchanging. Quit trying to make Him into your image (as spoken of in Romans 1).
mike2685, a person does not have to have an addiction to benefit from a 12 Step Program, they only need the desire to stop either a behavior or habit. And for a Christian who wishes to stop a sinful habit or behavior God indeed can and does use solid Bible-based 12 Step Programs to help them have victory in those areas. But once again we would be remiss in not telling that person that they will probably experience relapses along the way but if they continue to trust and rely on God and adhere to their 12 Step Program those relapses will be fewer and farther in between and this is true with any sinful behaviors to include sexual sin.
Love is such a wonderful thing. Giving your True heart to a woman who wants to be Loved, and cherished and cared for. To be told she is beautiful, and a good wife and mother. She longs to hear those things. Tell her all the things about her you love.
Tell her how you long to be with her when your away.
Tell her everything that is in your heart.
A woman is made love to when she knows you love her and shown she is cherished, not the sex.
Men with men do not understand this, the longer this goes on in the world the darker their thoughts, the more rebellious and perverse there deeds. Until they claim that 'love' is just sexual gratification.
Even those who claim to be heterosexual are becoming more lost from true love and seeking only the surface of love and sexual gratification, no matter how sick and twisted it may be.
Love will just be a vauge memory, till only darkness permeates this world.
Satan is very clever on this.
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mike, there's no reason to believe the reltionship of the sinner in the Church of Corinth was purely sexual, but the sexual component made it a grave sin and he was tossed from the Church for it. If one is truly indwelt by the Holy Spirit they will not continue in gay sex,(or any other unrepenent sin) scripture makes this clear.
"You choose to intake nicotine, you do not choose to be gay."
You do not choose to be addicted to nicotine. You choose to engage in behavior that feeds the addicition. The same is true for homosexuality - you choose to engage in behavior that feeds a desire/need. God has said to not engage in homosexual sex. God said homosexual sex and desire are both bad. As for whether people can change sexual orientation, I know homosexuals who have changed. While you obviosly want to deny the facts and find ways to shut it up or invalidate the truth, even Dr. Spitzer, the man who led the charge to remove homosexuality from the DSM, has said that highly motivated people can change their orientation.
http://www.drthrockmorton.com/interviewdrspitzer.pdf
As for what feet keeps trying to pretend, that one does not need to obey God to be saved and be in heaven, God is clear that those who disobey God are rebellious. God is clear that if you love Him you will obey Him. Its not the obedience that saves us, but it is that which shows our love for Him. If we claim what God has said is a sin is NOT a sin, then we call Gd a liar and are a heretic.
DP: Homosexuality is not an addiction, hence, a 12 step program cannot and will not work. Way to try and compare them though.
Penitent, the relationship I have with my partner is not solely sexual. If we built our relationship on sex, we would not still be together. Rather, it is built on mutual admiration, trust, and loyalty. We just got back from the laundromat and the grocery store, and there is no one I would rather be doing such tedious tasks with than him, because just being with him makes me happy. If you want to condemn the sexual part, thats fine, as I understand you do the same for any couple who is not married, but nowhere in scripture does it condemn the relationship of two men with a close, loving partnership. I do not want to imitate a straight couple or mock marriage at all, but I do want legal rights and benefits with my partner (as I think people who aren't married but are best friends could get too...my great aunt died at 87 and lived in the house of her best friend, but when her best friend died she had to move out as well because legally she had no rights to the home.)
mike2685, please note "can be sin" not "is sin". If my only desire for having sex with my wife is my own personal sexual gratification then first off it is certainly not true love for my wife and could very well be sin on my part. Having sex is not the sin, but my selfish self-centered, self-serving attitude is the sin.
The Apostle Paul told the Church of Corinth to put out a member who was engaging in sexual sin. Whether the sinner "loved" the one he was sinning with was of no moment to Paul. The man was engaged in open sexual sin and Paul said he must be removed from the Church. Likewise, Jesus strongly condemned the Church at Thyatira for tolerating sexual sin among the congregation. Thus, scripture is clear that open, urepentent sexual sin cannot be tolerated or it will poison a truly Christian congregation. A little leaven........
"Sex used as an intimate way of showing love must be sinful."
The problem comes in your definition of sex. Sex is designed by the creator to be between a man and a woman in marriage. ANY other application is abuse of the design and insulting to the designer who gave it to you to use the way He wants it used.
In short, no matter if you are a Christian or not, you will learn that your life belongs to God to judge. Either you do things Christs way under His blood or you will be judged for not using your life the way the owner wants you to. If you abuse a machine at work won't you get fired? No difference.
You need to understand God will judge by His standards. Not yours, mine or any other mans. Using a screwdriver as a hammer doesn't make it a hammer.
"malice, hatred indifference, envy, and division............"
In a standard 12 step group your statement defending homosexuality is called 'playing the victim'. Sorry...I don't buy it. If we didn't love you the way Jesus loves then we wouldn't give you or your arguement the time of day. The problem everyone who plays the victim has to face is that it is Jesus they are calling these things. Jesus said one man and one woman. He proclaimed the truth. He proclaimed God's standards.
In short, the reason we don't get all angry with you is because you aren't attacking us...you're attacking the Bible and the words of Christ and He is quite capable of dealing with false beliefs in the end. Our responsibility is to proclaim the words of Christ and to have an answer for every man of the hope that is in us.
Jesus can set everyone free from the law of sin and death. If I'm set free from a trap I don't drag it around with me let alone practice it.
Well thanks for adding something original to the conversation there sport!
homosexuality is a sin. period. And those who willfully practice it will have to face their harsh judgement.
So then a husband and wife couple should only have sex if the purpose is to have a baby from it. Sex used as an intimate way of showing love must be sinful.
mike2685, if it's a form of love that puts God and others ahead of yourself then you're right it is not sin, but sex for the sake of sex and/or self-gratification is not love and can be sin.
Love cannot be a sin.
mike2685, yes, alcoholics and drug addicts can change, but especially for a large majority of alcoholics they still consider themselves to be alcoholics, recovering alcoholics, but alcoholics none the less. Homosexuals can stop practicing the sexual sins of homosexuality and still be considered a homosexual the goal should be to stop the sinful behavior not necessarily change ones sexual orientation.
Believer, that would be a good point if sexual orientation was about chemical addiction, such as alcoholism. Homosexuality is not an addiction that can be cured, whereas studies have proven alcoholics and drug addicts can change. Studies have shown that ex-gay ministries leave people with more psychological problems than when they started, and their failure rates are astronomical compared to AA (of 1,000 men interviews who went through ex-gay ministries, 10 years later only 3 reported feeling they were heterosexual.)
feet, prior to becoming a Director of Missions, I was a Pastor and had to on a number of occassions go to a brother or sister who was willfully sinning, but I will give you one example. I had a couple who were thinking of getting married and found a house they wanted to move into prior to their wedding and they were going to go ahead and move into the house and live together prior to getting married. I called and asked him how he was going to make right with God what he and her were about to do, I heard a sigh of relief and he said they had been struggling with that, but didn't know what to do since they were planning a big wedding a year later. What we did was had a private service in my office and then they had the big wedding a year later, but most importantly they did what was right in the sight of God and others.
feet, sin is sin and like Baskin Robbins it comes in a whole lot of flavors, but it is still sin and when we see a brother or sister who is willfully sinning we as a brother or sister are to go to them and lovingly confront them about their sin. There is no where in Scripture that says we only confront them in matters of sin that involve hate, malice, and/or indifference.
feet, scripture is clear when you see a brother or sister who is willfully sinning we are to go to that person and lovingly confront them with their sin, this was taught and practiced by Christ Himself and taught and practiced in the early Church. And as much as you and others try to spin it the Bible in the Old and New Testament alike condemns the sexual practices of homosexuality and it doesn't matter how sweet and kind you or any other sinner is to themselves or others, sin is sin and God and God's Word condemn sin and challenges His followers to confront and challenge those in the Church who do.
could you please describe a personal incident where you carried out this understanding of approaching a brother about his sin,
Sin is unchangeable. It is only forgiveable. We are sinners. Sin isn't something that is changed. It is something that is resisted. This means it is even appealing. The Bible says sin is fun for a season. That season may be your entire life but the ride will stop.
your concept of sin appears to be about interpretation of regulation and not about things like malice, hatred indifference, envy, and division............
feet, scripture is clear when you see a brother or sister who is willfully sinning we are to go to that person and lovingly confront them with their sin, this was taught and practiced by Christ Himself and taught and practiced in the early Church. And as much as you and others try to spin it the Bible in the Old and New Testament alike condemns the sexual practices of homosexuality and it doesn't matter how sweet and kind you or any other sinner is to themselves or others, sin is sin and God and God's Word condemn sin and challenges His followers to confront and challenge those in the Church who do.
it is one thing to confront sin in a brother because one personnally witnesses actions of hatred, malice, or indifference and another to do it based on
one's interpretation of regulation.
hopefully this difference is openly apparent.
"but the reality is that failure or relapse is a normal part of any recovery process"
You've got that straight. Each of us has our issues.
"Exodus attempts to change something which is unchangeable."
Sin is unchangeable. It is only forgiveable. We are sinners. Sin isn't something that is changed. It is something that is resisted. This means it is even appealing. The Bible says sin is fun for a season. That season may be your entire life but the ride will stop.
Jesus never asks us to change who we are. He asks us to become what He wants us to be. 'Never the less, not I but Christ who lives in me.' 'leaving that which lies behind, I press towards the mark of the high calling in Christ Jesus'.
I've been told I could make $250,000 a year easily around my part of the country with what I can do with computers. However, that's not important. What's important is doing what God wants me to do. Just because I can use a talent in a way and make money doesn't mean it's what God wants me to do or to be. Being a Christian means to die to self and live the life Jesus has for you no matter what changes you have to make.
mike2685, but the reality is that failure or relapse is a normal part of any recovery process be it overeating, substance abuse, or breaking free of the homosexual lifestyle.
mike2685, there are homosexuals who have successfully left the homosexual lifestyle, but of course they weren't fully bonafied homosexuals because they wouldn't have been successful if they had been. So every drug addict or alcoholic who succeeds in overcoming their problem with drugs or alcohol were never addicts or alcoholics in the first place because if they were they would not be able to break free of their attraction to drugs and alcohol since according to many in the substance abuse arena like many in the homosexual arena who believe that people are born that way and by the way there is just as much so-called evidence in the substance abuse arena as there is in the homosexual arena to support the claim that people are born thay way.
feet, scripture is clear when you see a brother or sister who is willfully sinning we are to go to that person and lovingly confront them with their sin, this was taught and practiced by Christ Himself and taught and practiced in the early Church. And as much as you and others try to spin it the Bible in the Old and New Testament alike condemns the sexual practices of homosexuality and it doesn't matter how sweet and kind you or any other sinner is to themselves or others, sin is sin and God and God's Word condemn sin and challenges His followers to confront and challenge those in the Church who do.
what david was given over to:
(1) not glorifying and thanking god for what had been given him
(2) became consumed with the essence of his own mortality instead of his eternal one with god...................what he wanted he needed to have now before the end of his life.
(3) he was given over to shame based lusts..........for the augmentation of his own personal power and gratification
(4) he no longer considered it important to embrace the knowledge of god...................loving ones neighbor as oneself.
god said that david despised him not out of theory but actual fact. knowing what david knew about god as revealed thru 1&2 samuel and the psalms, david would have had to despised god to do what he did to uriah. he despised god because god had not given him bathsheba.
it is the old understanding that one cannot serve 2 masters. eventually one will love one while despising the other. david ended up loving what his passions longed for, and consequently had to despise god, and that included the knowledge of god and loving ones neighbor as onesself. in fact you could say that david was given over to everything denoted in romans 1:18-32...........the basis for all sin.
Believer, AA treats people with a chemical dependence, Exodus attempts to change something which is unchangeable. Choosing to have sex with a man will not give you HIV, but choosing to have unprotected sex raises your risk. There is nothing innately gay about having unprotected sex, unfortunately, many in the gay community choose to.
is it your understanding that there is more that is needed than the love that is god. is it your understanding that those relationships that embrace the fruit of the spirit,....love, joy, peace, kindness, patience,goodness,self-control, faithfulness,and gentleness are still lacking out of regulation?
in short living solely thru regulation has nothing to do with the new covenant of christ, and imposition of ones interpretation of regulation on others has nothing to do with the spirit of christ.
to think one can take this imposition of pointing out anothers sin because of legality, without any acknowledgement or witness of spirit in anothers heart is devoid of anything that is christ.
god condemned david not for the taking of uriah's life but for the spirit that was in david's heart that caused him to take it. that was why the story of the lamb.
david had killed many men on the spot as judge and jury, before he became king, without any recrimination from god.
your only accusation of homosexuals is that they are being disobedient to your interpretation of scripture, you offer not one scintilla of evidence as to what is in a man's heart who lives as a homosexual.
those who cling to rejecting homosexual marriage offer nothing as to the hearts of those who are gay who wish to marry.
"feet, typical bogus nonsense again, I do not have to honor another person's life experience if that experience willfully violates the Word of God and in fact true agape loves compells me to lovingly confront that person as Nathan confronted David. "
nathan's words.......... his words speak directly to loving ones neighbor as oneself. do you really believe david would have done this if he had loved uriah as he loved himself. (there is none greater) and there is no question that david did love himself.
"1 The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 "Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him."
5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity."
7 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own."
(CONTINUED)
(CONTINUED)
where is there room for evil in the midst of the love that is god.
the only evil you credit with homosexuality is that it violates your understanding of the law. you have no personnal witness of any evil in the essence of being homosexual. all your objections are based on your understanding of regulation. this is being led by the law.
there is no leading of understanding of spirit be it evil or good that you can give personal witness to. you have no witness as to the heart of the people you accuse. there is no love in your accusations only recrimination, denial of fellowship. how do you love a person without honoring his life experiences? and by dishonoring another's life experiences leaves the door open to additionally characterize his motives, which is pure subjection and without any basis of fact.
homosexuality does not cause aids, no more than heterosexuality. its sexual promiscuity that causes it. so where does that leave all the homosexuals who are not promiscuous, and have never contracted aids. what does it say for all who have embraced shared committed relationships?
do you credit yourself for knowing the percentages about this for the entire 12 million in the u.s. and the 320 million worldwide. is what you are presenting as fact 4th, or 5th or 12th hand knowledge? this is not knowledge at all but subjection.
engaging in personnally dangerous behavior comes from living with unprocessed trauma. do you think that living in the u.s. as a homosexual would be a cause for personnal trauma? how many years would it be your guess, that personnal trauma would disappear if it were caused from 500 years of persecution for engaging in a sexual identity that was considered illegal, after it was made legal?
of course this question would only be meaningful to those who are able to honor another's life experiences?
for those who cannot, their understanding is that there was never any pain or suffering,. and whatever there was they brought on themselves................................sort of like all that suffering and pain that would come from contracting aids from promiscuous sexual activity
mike2685, Alcoholics Anonymous probably has one of the highest failure rates in the world if relapsing is the criteria used to determine failure. So should we close down AA and tell alcoholics to don't bother to attempt to stop drinking because our failure rate indicates abstinence from alcohol is not working?
feet, typical bogus nonsense again, I do not have to honor another person's life experience if that experience willfully violates the Word of God and in fact true agape loves compells me to lovingly confront that person as Nathan confronted David.
mike2685, but if you choose to practice the sexual practices of homosexuality as a male you take the risk of contracting HIV and/or AIDS which at this point in time is an automatic death sentence and puts you at risk of giving it to any other person you choose to have sex with. And right now in America male homosexuals have the highest rate of HIV and AIDS.
ive heard it before, but when i heard it by both vice presidential candidates, last night,that" homosexuals should not be allowed to marry in the same way as do heterosexuals" last night, the impact was deafening that christendom after 2000 years still has one foot firmly planted in the old covenant.
the rejection of homosexuals being allowed to marry is based on the law, and is without any witness of spirit. in other words believers are saying my interpretation of the law takes precedent over my "that which we have have looked at, which we have seen with our eyes, and our hands have touched"............. that which we have witnessed in walking in the light of fellowship. in that light, the witness is, that homosexuals bond out of the same spirit as that of heterosexuals.........that is out of mutual love, attraction, respect, and devotion for a shared committed life together.
things embracing the same spirit are in essence equal to each other.
consider hebrews 8 where paul not only denotes the old covenant to be "wrong" because of the replacement of the new one in christ , but that what is denoted as "old" " will become obsolete and soon pass away".
although christ gave us three commandments of love to live by. and paul said we are led by the spirit,
the spirit of love being god, believers still persist on being led by their unwitnessed, unreasoned interpretation of the law.
in short, creating and living by a regulation, and being led by that same regulation comes against the new covenant of christ that says you will recognize them by their fruit. the bonding of homosexuals being the same as with heterosexuals....... it is about love( one the fruit of the spirit)
those things that are of the same spirit are in essence equal to each other.
1cor 13 says that anything that is without love is nothing and gains nothing. there are a million reasons to obey a law, but only one is right. that reason is love. that being the case, then why not be led by love that is god, and in doing so, one not only AUTOMATICALLY follows the law, but fulfills it as well. the same thing that christ did.
if david had loved his neighbor as himself, he would not have stepped into the things he did with bathsheba..
one can love regulation, and one's interpretation of regulation, and at the same time say they love homosexuals. love them thru a one john1 witness, which requires loving them thru fellowship. a fellowship that requires things like honoring another's life experiences, and still say one loves them as one loves themselves.
its the old thing about one cannot honor 2 masters, because one will soon love one and despise the other. either one is led by the spirit which is of the new covenant or he is led by regulation which is of the old.
Not at all believer, because there are many gay men who choose not to participate in risky sex (such as my partner and I) so being gay does not mean it should just be assumed you are promiscuous and will contract HIV. It is the behavior people choose, one which plenty of straight couples also choose to participate in, which spreads HIV. Homosexuality is not a chosen behavior, but rather something that I and any gay person you ask would say was determined before birth, hence why I compared it to cerebral palsy rather than a nicotine addiction. You choose to intake nicotine, you do not choose to be gay. I think every gay person on this planet could tell you they did not choose to be gay and you'd still say "well Exodus changed people." Groups like Exodus reach out to people who are so thirsty for acceptance that they'll say or do anything, and at the start, Exodus seems loving. If you look at their failure rates a few years down the road, which of course they do not report, you'd see just how uncaring they are.
chicago, I am not saying AIDS is a homosexual men's disease, but here in America the highest percentage of people who contract both HIV and AIDS are homosexual males. Would you not say that they are dying or have died from the effects of the sexual practices of the homosexual lifestyle?
chicago, I didn't say homosexuality is akin to nicotine addiction. I was just saying that comparison is more fitting than the comparison with celebral palsy.
Crossfire: You say that homosexuality is akin to an addiction to nicotine. When was the last time you ever heard of anyone dying from the effects homosexuality?
Whether it be homosexuality or heterosexual disobeying God, it really does not matter. Sin is sin to God. You can debate on thousand of minute details. But if you are doing what displeased God then you are disobeying His command. The Bible is has many laws you must obey them all.
One can hardly compare homosexuality to something like cerebral palsy. A more fitting comparison would be an addiction to nicotine - which your body may insist that you need and you can't live without, but is something many have been able to break away from when they realized how hazardous it is, made the decision to quit, and sought help/support to put an end to the addiction.
I'll gladly research it this weekend. Many studies misinterpret data. To speak of a homosexual pedophile does not talk about their sexual orientation, it talks about the sex of the child they perpetrated (for instance, if its a man and he molests a girl, its heterosexual pedophilia, if he then molests a boy, its homosexual pedophilia.) Pedophilia is not about attraction to children, it is about power over them, oftentimes because they were molested themselves as children. Science very strongly suggests that sexual orientation is determined before birth, whether genetically or hormonally inutero. To suggest that you can change something like that just by will power would be like telling someone with cerebral palsy that they need to pray hard and God will take away their disability. Its their card in life, and they live their life as normal and best as possible. I have been born gay, for whatever reason, but I am not going to spend my life miserable and alone, nor does God expect me to.
To Mike2685
How about Leviticus, chapter 18 and Romans, chapter 1. The Bible says what it says. We are to care for all people, but we Christians are not to endorse what the Bible speaks against. Where did you get the information that the majority of pedophiles report a heterosexual orientation? I'm not sure that that is right. What's your source?
These youth are being lied to blatantly. People claim the gay agenda is targeting youth? How about the fact that Exodus does not have the data to back their claims, yet they say they have the truth anyways? How about the fact that pedophilia and sexual orientation are 2 very different things, and the majority of pedophiles report a heterosexual orientation? These kids need to hear both sides of the argument, sure, but they are being lied to so blatantly that they will think to even think about the other side is sinful. How sad!
Your cause is just. However, you cannot just want to defend marriage. You need to first start at the 1st commandment and work your way down. Christian cannot ask God to aide us on one matter and exclude Him in others. God is not to be limited as Israel did in the desert, and they wondered for 40 years.