PHILADELPHIA - Episcopal leaders gathered in Philadelphia expect to formally apologize Saturday for their ancestors' slave ownership — and to discuss the "white privilege" they say endures.
In a solemn repentance service, Episcopalians plan to acknowledge that slavery "was and is a sin and a fundamental betrayal of the humanity of all persons" in which church members took part.
The Episcopal church joins other denominations, including the Southern Baptists, that have apologized for their past support of slavery or racism.
"We think that Americans are really in denial about the role of the African-Americans and Native Americans in the building of this nation," said Byron Rushing, a Massachusetts lawmaker who helped organize the Episcopal event.
"We're convinced that if we can tell the truth about that ... we should make better decisions about how we should live and work together," said Rushing, a descendant of slaves.
The United States has about 2.4 million Episcopalians. Some 600 church members are expected to take part in the gathering, which officials have been wanting for years to hold. The event is being held at the African Episcopal Church of St. Thomas in west Philadelphia, the denomination's oldest African-American congregation.
Presiding Bishop Katherine Schori of the Episcopal Church USA will be joined by 15 other bishops for Saturday's service.
Even Americans with no direct family link to slave ownership have benefited from the economic model, which lasted in the U.S. for more than 200 years, from about 1619 to 1865, church leaders said.
John Vanderstar, a retired Washington lawyer who drafted the apology resolution, said his family did not come to the United States until after slavery was outlawed. That doesn't leave him off the hook, he said.
"I know that as a white, European male that I get privileges that I don't deserve just because of my race and my last name," Vanderstar said Friday.
The church is still weighing what form reparations might take, including education and outreach, leaders said.
Filmmaker Katrina Brown, 41, of Boston, brings a unique vantage point to the church discussion. Her family research revealed her ancestors as the largest slave traders in U.S. history. Over three generations, the DeWolfs of Rhode Island brought 10,000 Africans to the country as slaves, according Brown, who turned her work into a heartfelt documentary titled "Traces of the Trade."
"I get push-back from whites: 'My people weren't here, and I'm not racist, so this isn't my problem,'" Brown said. "You don't have to be a bad, intentionally racist person to be benefiting from a system that still has inequities built into it."
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I don't think that cog's ethnicity is of any concern. Whether he's mulato, oriental/jewish, german/french, or african/swedish doesn't matter.
We had a black family in our church for a while. They left our church because they were the only afri/american family there. They were more than accepted at our church. My wife and I, as well as many other families in our church, had them over for dinner. We loved them for who they were, not what color they were.
I will say that I was rather upset for their reason for leaving. That they were the only afri/american family in our church. I asked them if they had ever felt discriminated against. They said no. They just didn't like being the only colored family in a caucasian prominant church. I told them that maybe they were the ones to begin the influx of multi ethnic groups. A afri/american family comes to our church and sees another afri/american family there...they'll be more inclined to stay.
But they opted to find a church already multi ethnic. To be honest, that's a really immature way to choose your place of worship. I always thought we went to church to worship God, not worry about whether we were a certain color....
cog - I reread your last post to me. You say that you are of a mixed race. Black and white, hispanic and black, hispanic and white, asian and some other race? What is it? How did the church(es) offend you and your family by making racial slurs? Did you marry someone out side of your racial makeup or someone from a race that is part of your makeup?
If nothing has been very productive or progressive in our discussion and a waste of your time it is because you refuse to answer my questions. You also don't seem to be answering believer's questions either.
I find no scriptural mandate that Churches have to be multi-racial. God is the one who is to decide the racial makeup of a church not you.
1 Corinthians 12:18 - "But now hath God set members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him."
cog - Why won't you say what your race is? Are you ashamed of it? All I asked you to do is tell me how you personally fight against racism. Just what do you say to these Churches? Do you challenge them to have outreach programs to different races? Do you show scripturally that racism is a sin of the heart? Do you encourage them to repent before God?
Where in the Bible does it say that we have to be miserable while attending a worship service that makes us that way? Is not the purpose of a Worship service to draw us closer to God? If I find a style of worship that produces negative effects in me and draws me away from God, then what has it accomplished for me to worship there?
I go to the Churches that God wants me to go to. I have been in multi-racial churches and I once attended an all black first generation African Baptist Church for 13 months. I was confortable in all of them. I was where God wanted me to be. He placed me in those churches for a reason. He used me to minister to the Church body in some kind of way and used them to minister to me. That is the way it is suppose to be (1 Corinthians 12:18).
To say that a Church has to be multi-racial is not biblical. Dealing with the attitude of racism among Christians is altogether different than telling a Church that they have to have a racial diverse Church or they are not doing what God wants them to do. If God wants their Church to be multi-racial then He will send the right people from the different races to the Church plus put a burden in the heart of the pastor, church leadership, and the congregation for that.
Maybe I am wrong but I am even more convinced that your are a black guy who feels rejected in general because of your race and you want to try to force, subconsciously, other races, white or otherwise, to accept you.
There are all different kinds of people. God wants to meet the needs of all His children. Some don't mind a multi-racial Church congregation, but others want to worship with people that come from their own race and culture. Would it be wrong for God to provide that for them? Why can't you accept that not everyone wants to worship in a multi-racial church?
cog, are you saying if a church is not multi-racial or multi-cultural then it is not a church or violates some biblical precedence?
Star2, I am not sure why you are obsessed with my ethnicity. (which is mixed)
I speak in Black, White, Asian, Latino and Multicultural Churches we all need Jesus.
I am not trying to force my ideas on you regarding multicultural churches, I simply wish to challenge to Church to be the Church.
I am also going to have to leave this dialogue because I don't believe our discussions have been that productive, progressive and the best use of my time.
I wish you the best. Blessings
star, Answers In Genesis should have it, believer
believer - Where might I find this video?
If individual Christians and churches are seriously interested in confronting racism I would highly recommend a video called, "One Blood, The Biblical Answer To Racism", by Ken Ham.
cog, you said
"Star 2, I have forgiven the churches that have hurt me and my family but that does not negate the reality of the racism is still in the church. If I did not forgive those churches I could have easily rejected participating in congregations that were different than me, yet I am still attempting to foster dialogue and discussion cross culturally in churches..."
You are apparrently not white. I presume you are black.
star2 asked, "cog - How do you think we should end it [racism in the Church] and speak against the injustice?"
cog responded, "Star2, That is a complex question which I could not do justice in a post..."
It is obvious that you do do something to try to correct this social ill you preceive to be in the Church. What do you do? Also, do you only try foster dialogue and discussion cross culturally in predominately white churches? Or do you also go to churches that have only blacks attending or churches that have only latinos where spanish only is spoken and discuss with them the need to reach out to other races and have them attend their church?
How do you counsel people who are looking for a Church to become a part of? Do you tell them to go to a multi-cultural Church where they might not fit in, may not like their form of worship, and may feel uncomfortable in or do you encourage them to seek God's will for their life in where He would want them to go?
cog
You said, "Star2 I'm not sure why you think I am a black male and will not speculate."
I reasoned from your Tue Oct 7, 2008 6:09 pm post, where you said
"I have been in countless churches that I have not felt welcome because of my race and worship style. Unfortunately, it was in an "Evangelical" Christian church were I can first remember experiencing racism in a blatant manner. (ex. racial slurs) Racism is very real in the church"
and from your Tues Oct 7,2008 6:19 pm post, where you said "dispute my negative experiences in cultures different then mine, I still believe that the churches should strive to replicate the racial demographics of their community even if it makes all of us feel a little uncomfortable."
that you were a black person.
Am I right in my conclusions or am I wrong?
Also, I am not interested in you giving me a book report on John Perkin's opinions as to how to fight racism. I am interested in what you think on how we should. Surely you can give me a short description of what you think we should do.
lol Star 2, I am a born again Christian. I don't understand why you wish to relegate my ideas to a particular ethnicity. Blessings
cog - If you are not black then what are you?
Star2, That is a complex question which I could not do justice in a post. If you are truly interested I would suggest reading people like John Perkin 'Let Justice Roll Down" and others who have dedicated their lives to your question.
cog - How do you think we should end it and speak against the injustice?
Star2 I'm not sure why you think I am a black male and will not speculate. But I don't understand why you think expanding racism to the global context lessens it's impact in the our context (USA). I understand that there is racism all over the world and that God is the answer to racism but that should not negate our responsibility to end it where we are and speak against injustice. For use to just say it's God's job and close our eyes to injustice is dangerous
cog - I gather that you are a black male. If you went back to the country your ancestors came from you would find discrimination there amoung your own people. For example, the lighter blacks look down on the darker blacks. Prejudices exist among the different black tribes. Let a dark black try to get a job with a black man that has lighter skin and I bet you you will find discrimination taking place in the hiring process.
Racism exist between the Cubans and the Mexicans, the Chinese and the Vietamese, the lighter blacks and the darker blacks, the black man is racist against the white man, and the list goes on.
There is not one race that isn't racist against some other race. Until you get the racism out of your own heart you can not and will not be able to tell someone else how to get the racism out of their heart.
Racism is an attitude of the heart. No civil law, no amount of education, no amount of money given to the offended, no kind of outreach to try to convince the offended that they are accepted will ever change a person's heart. Only God can do that. God is the answer to racism; God is the only one who can change a person heart. The answer doesn't lie in all the methods that have been suggested or implemented by our government and members of our society.
cog - I live in the USA. I have heard on the TV on a number of occassions where white males were rejected from law school not because they were not qualified but because they were white. These men even challenged it in the courts.
Also, my brother worked for Chevron. He was a reginal supervisor at the time and one of his responsisbilities was to hire salesmen. He had a white guy he interviewed for the job and a black guy. The white guy was more qualified for the job than the black guy. He had to hire the black guy over the white guy because the government required him to hire so many minorities and he hadn't yet met the quoto. This reverse discriminatuion goes on all the time in the USA. Wake up bud!
I am a white female. I have, I am sure, benefited from affrimative action when I got my job as a Systems Engineer for a NASA contractor back in the late 70's.
Males and females of all races should have equal opportunity for a job, what college they get in to and etc but not affrimative action where quotos need to be met regardless of whether the applicant is qualitfied to assure "equality" in the work force or institution of higher learning.
"Blacks have an advantage over the white person in getting jobs, getting into colleges, and etc."
lol Star2 what country do you live in? Have you looked at any statistics lately
It sounds like you are the one that needs to forgive.
star2, heh! You posted while I was composing a similar note. great minds think alike.
By the reasoning of this article, anyone not white and not male need to apologize to white males. I guess half of me needs to apologize to my other half.
By the statement made by this article, all people who benefit from affirmative action should apologize to all those who do not benefit from it. And the argument that affirmative action is an attempt to rectify the injustices of the past does not change the fact that people are suffering from affirmative action today. It does not change the fact that if one is trying to form an equitable system, one does not do it by forming an inequitable system.
And it does not change the fact that people are responsible for their own actions, not those of others. I really do not understand taking responsibility for someone else's actions, especially dead people's actions.
St Jophn - Blacks need to apologize then for affrimative action because it discriminates against the white person. Blacks have an advantage over the white person in getting jobs, getting into colleges, and etc. Many a white person has been rejected for jobs, getting into colleges and etc not because they were under qualified but because of the color of their skin.
Christians need to stop complaining about what they preceive to be bias against who or what they are, forgive past injustices, and stop looking to man to meet their needs. Get your eyes on Jesus and off of man and/or your circumstances and let God bring good from your bad experiences.
St John's,
I've read the story. I know what it said. It just does not make sense. So anyone benefiting from a system where inequities exist must apologize for the fact that they are benefiting. This makes no sense to me. I'm really trying to understand, but it is saying nothing. The reason I say this is that even those who do not benefit as much as others are still benefiting from this system. Therefore, by your statement, even those who are not benefiting as much as others should apologize. This basically says that everyone should apologize. Logically, it does not make sense.
Star 2, I have forgiven the churches that have hurt me and my family but that does not negate the reality of the racism is still in the church. If I did not forgive those churches I could have easily rejected participating in congregations that were different than me, yet I am still attempting to foster dialogue and discussion cross culturally in churches. If I truly has not forgiven those church I would take your comment offensively as blaming the victim but I understand you are simply attempting to assist in my individual circumstance. blessings
wbmoore, you have been given the reason. It is stated clearly in the article. I quoted it to you twice before. You are just not hearing it. Brown said. "You don't have to be a bad, intentionally racist person to be benefiting from a system that still has inequities built into it." Those who are benefiting from the system which has built-in inequities are asked to apologize for the advantages they have, though they themselves may have done nothing wrong, or right for that matter.
sj, once again you're making the assumption that because a church is not multi-racial that it is more than likely a matter of racism or prejudice and that is not necessarily true. As I shared with star2 there are churches that are very prejudiced, but I have lived in various places and I found few churches that would not welcome people of any race or culture in their church and yet very few of them could truly be considered a multi-racial/cultural church. The reason was based not on race but the various cultural practices of the majority of the people who attended the church. If I have seen anything I've seen churches differing not as a result of race or even culture but economics and education levels. Once again it wasn't that this was encouraged but a matter of preference on the part of the attenders of these churches nor have I seen any church that would discourage someone from coming to their church because of their economic status or education level. To me the decision on where people will attend church is the worship style to include the preaching style and where they believe they fit in. While pastoring in Upstate New York we lived close to Ft. Drum and what most of the soldiers and their families looked for in a church was how many people had GI haircuts because chances are they were soldiers too and they knew that they would fit in and easily relate to other attenders at the church.
cog - You need to forgive from your heart those who have offended you. You will never be able to see clearly on this subject of discussion until you do.
No one has adequately given an effective apology for why people who did nothing wrong must apologize for what dead people did to dead people.
dispute my negative experiences in cultures different then mine, I still believe that the churches should strive to replicate the racial demographics of their community even if it makes all of us feel a little uncomfortable.
I have been in countless churches that I have not felt welcome because of my race and worship style. Unfortunately, it was in an "Evangelical" Christian church were I can first remember experiencing racism in a blatant manner. (ex. racial slurs) Racism is very real in the church
star2, the problem of racism in the Church definitely exists. Despite Jesus' prayer (Jn. 17.20-3) that we all be one, Sunday morning remains the most segregated hour of the week. Why are our churches more segregated than our society at large? We can work together, live together, but not worship together? Less than 8% of Christian congregations in this country are multi-racial (less than 3% of Mainline congregations, according to a Rice University study). Sure, there are no visible signs out front banning anyone, but there are dozens and dozens of invisible barriers and messages that keep us from fulfilling Jesus' dream. Racism is a sin, even though we pretend that it isn't there anymore, and make our excuses as to why it continues to exist in our parishes.
star2, I have been to a couple of churches where although there was no sign at the door it was very evident that minorities specifically blacks were not welcome there and in fact I personally saw a deacon recommend a black church down the street to a black woman who was visiting the church. Now this was the mid-70s so I can't honestly say if that goes on in those churches now.
cog, I can worship with any group of true believers, however I prefer a more unstructured form of worship as opposed to a closed structured form of worship which I believe tends to limit the Holy Spirit. I have no problem with structured services as long as they don't hinder or stifle the Holy Spirit. I want to be in a place of worship where people are free to worship and the Holy Spirit is free to make His presence felt. Plus, there are some churches/denominations whose beliefs are not in keeping with the Word of God in my opinion and as a result I would have a hard time worshipping with them on a regular basis.
St John and cog - I have never been to a Church where they had a sign posted at the front door saying that if you aren't a particular race then you are not welcomed here. Have you?
You all seem to be bent out of shape over a non-existing problem.
I agree with St. John.
I am not saying that a multicultural church will work in every context but I think we use the excuse our style and preference to divide ourselves. Say what you want I believe that God has called the church to unity but in that unity there is diversity. I love my cultural style of worship but the question is am I worshiping a style or worshiping or a God who calls all nations to him.
St John - why don't you let God decide what the racial makeup should be of each Church body instead of deciding for Him?
sj, so all these groups worship together in the same service? And are your worship services pretty structured say like the Mass in the catholic church?
believer, a principal attraction to our congregation is it's multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-lingual component. People talk about how they could never go back to a monochromatic congregation again. So yes, I think people would be shocked if anyone left to form a monochromatic group, and they would think it was racially motivated.
sj, let me make sure I heard you right, your church would be upset if the hispanics went and formed their own separate church and your church would see it as a form of racism or prejudice on the part of the hispanics for leaving and forming their own church? If I interpreted you right, why would your church see it that way?
Yes, they would.
sj, would your congregation be upset if say a few years down the road the hispanic members opted to leave and form an independent church, same denomination but none the less independent? And if they did would you see that as a form of racism or prejudice on their part?
St. John's,
Is the Hispanic ministry meeting together with the rest of the church, or do they have a separate service?
believer, we began an Hispanic Ministry one year ago, and now the Hispanics are 1/3 of our congregation, composed of numerous Anglos, African-Americans, West Indians, French speaking Haitians and Congolese and now Nigerians.
Here in Southeast Kentucky our hispanic population is beginning to grow and at present many do not attend church because they can't find a church where they really fit, my belief is that we need to seriously look at planting a hispanic church, but it seems that some of you are saying we would be wrong to do that and in a sense would be advocating prejudice. What would be wrong with anglos coming alongside hispanics and helping them to plant a church based on their cultural beliefs as long as it is a Bible believing, Bible-teaching, Bible-living Church, in other words an Hispanic Great Commission Church?
"how can there "be love for all people" if we are (consciously or unconsciously) dividing ourselves into racially divided congregations?"
While this is apparently beyond your comprehension, there are huge numbers of people who are not prejudiced against other people. But this does not mean they do not have preferences for doctrine and music and even volume of music. We must address those God has called us to. So long as no one is made to feel unwelcome, we do nothing wrong. But Just because everyone is welcomed warmly does not mean everyone will want to attend. I have attended black churches, white churches, hispanic churches, hatian churches, multicultural churches. Its been my experience that people want to be with people with whom they have a lot in common. For instance, even though the hispanics spoke English, they preferred to attend hispanic churches because of the difference in musical style and preferring to hear sermons in Spanish as opposed to English. The same was true for the hatian church members. On the other hand, the whites would not have understood the patoi or the spanish of the hatian or hispanic churches, even though they would have been welcomed warmly. We must minister to those to whom we have been called. Some of us have been called to one ethnic group. Some of us have been called to another ethnic group. Some of us have been called to form multicultural churches. I've seen some multicultural churches have services in three languages, but call themselves one church. In fact, the three groups had very little in common, other than a single meeting place. I've also seen multicultural churches have services in one language with translation services into other languages, with song service in multiple languages. I've also seen multcultural churches have service in only one language with no translation.
I've been involved church planting since 1999. I've seen a lot of different churches. In all of them, people of other ethnic groups, denominations, beliefs, languages, and preferences were welcomed. But sometimes, people prefer a different style music, or style of preaching, or style of youth ministry, or style of childrens ministry, or language, or time, or time of meeting. We can not please everyone. But we can share the Gospel and God's love and let God call people where He will, and let people respond as God moves them.
I am a white female.
I have been to many churches that had a multi-mixture group of people. All were accepted. I have been to an all black first generation African Baptist Church. I was the only white person in attendance. I was there 13 months. They all accepted me except one person seemed to have a problem with it. I have listened to Pastors preach on TV or radio that were not white. I liked most of them. Some I did not; it was the way they expressed themselves. I have listened to black congregations choirs. Their form of music worship I just don't like and would not choose on my own to worship with them.
I believe scripture teaches that God places you in a church body according to His will. I seek His will about where He would have me go. I have never been disappointed. The all black African Baptist Church I attended for 13 months was one such Church.
wbmoore, how can there "be love for all people" if we are (consciously or unconsciously) dividing ourselves into racially divided congregations?
Should my non-white side condemn my white ancestors, and my white side apologize for my white ancestors? How would that work?
How far back should our apologies go? Perhaps Africans should apologize for the sin of selling Africans to slave traders? Perhaps Native Americans should apologize for their ancestors murdering whites, and whites can apologize for their ancestors murdering Native Americans. Perhaps Europeans should apologize for creating an atmosphere where people felt the need to leave for religious freedom? Perhaps England should apologize for causing a rebellion. Perhaps France should apologize for encouraging the rebellion. Perhaps Spain should apologize for its part in it. And of course, let us not forget the sin of the Prussian soldiers who participated. Perhaps we should apologize for the sin of Adam and Eve? Perhaps we should apologize for the need for Chris to have suffered and died? Perhaps our ancestors should apologize for having sex, because had they not, we would not be having this discussion on an inane topic.
How about we call it even instead?
I think we should try to help people who want to work to get ahead do so, while providing support for those who truly need it, instead of trying to assign blame.
As for multi-cultural churches, if that is what God has called you to, more power to you. I've been part of ethnic churches, white churches, multicultural churches. Some people would not go to an ethnic church. Others would not go to a white church. Others would not go to a multicultural church. God plants churches so people can hear the Gospel and become disciples. So long as there is love for all people and people are sharing the Gospel and God's love, we are following God's commands.
I agree with cog.
cog, no one is saying we shouldn't strive for multi-cultural congregations, but once again the Great Commission says nothing about the need to develop multi-cultural churches to effectively reach our world for Christ. Once again as long as people of other races and cultures are welcomed and invited to join in worship with us what's the problem? As long as people are given a choice of being free to worship where ever God leads them to worship I have absolutely no problem with people attending churches based on their cultural heritage.
"you 'apologize' for the fact that you benefit from the system built by our forebears. You apologize for being a white, male which gets you all sorts of advantages for which you did nothing but be born."
I'm only part white. Should I only part apologize? Should the part that is not white be thankful or condemning of the part that IS white? It still makes no sense to apologize for what others have done. Take what you have been given and make the most of it.
I'm sorry but I don't think we should be too comfortable with our style of worship. We were never called to a comfortable christianity. I do not think we should let our worship style(Black,White, Latino, traditional, contemporary, or charismatic) be an excuse for not striving for multicultural churches. What do you think heaven is going to be like.
sj, while stationed in Holland we along with several other families started a church for American families. There was a group of Afro-Americans who were holding a Gospel Service at the Base Chapel who were looking for a place to hold services on Sunday mornings as opposed to only Sunday night services. I asked their Pastor if they would be interested in joining us in our services and he said that he certainly appreciated the offer but he didn't think it would work because for instance if we were singing Amazing Grace, our members would already be on the third verse before his members got through the first line. In other words their worship style was very different than our worship style, but he knew that he and his members were more than welcome to come and be a part of our worship services anytime they felt led to and all of my members felt they would have been just as welcomed at their services as well. And as a matter of fact their were times we had joint worship services together. The issue was cultural worship differences and neither race or racism was a factor as to why we did not meet for worship together.
believer, I am distressed by your casual acceptance of the inherent racism in our congregations, divided according to color, when the Gospel commands that we all be one.
sj, unlike you I don't have a problem with the fact that many churches are not multi-racial as long as the reason for it is not to keep those of other races out. Many churches are not multi-racial due to cultural differences with regards to worship styles, so we need to be careful to not assume that the reason for the lack of multi-racial or multi-cultural churches is because of racism. But we need to make sure that evangelical churches are challenged and encouraged to openly welcome people of any race or culture.
wbmoore, you 'apologize' for the fact that you benefit from the system built by our forebears. You apologize for being a white, male which gets you all sorts of advantages for which you did nothing but be born. Racism continues. Look at our churches. In a multi-racial society, our Christian congregations on Sunday morning are still predominately divided by race! A recent Rice University study revealed that less than 8% of Christian Churches are multi-racial (defined as having at 20% of other races in actual attendance). Take out the Catholic Churches and the percentage drops down to less than 8%. What color is your church?
"we should be confronting the horrors of current ones, especially the slave trade in women and children."
I agree whole heartedly! We must stop slave trading worldwide.
St Johns,
you've repeated a statement made by someone else that says nothing.
Everyone benefits in this society, compared to people in other societies. Some benefit more quantitatively than others. Is this inequitable? Is it inequitable for those who work hard in poor schools and then go on to work and put themselves through college and then start their own businesses and get rich, while those who do not do those things do not get rich?
I repeat, if you do not like the way things are, change them. But don't apologize for what you have not done and don't expect people to apologize for what they have not done. Take responsibility for your own actions. And expect others to do the same.
As Filmmaker Katrina Brown said. "You don't have to be a bad, intentionally racist person to be benefiting from a system that still has inequities built into it."
Let's make an assumption that person A benefits from bad behavior from person B's ancestors. How does person A apologizing for person B's bad behavior fix things? It does not. If you want things to change, then change them. Apologizing for something you did not do implies you take responsibility for the behavior of others (who in this case have been dead over a century).
God said we are each responsible for our own sin. This being the case, take responsibility for your own sin, not someone else's.
As Filmmaker Katrina Brown said. "You don't have to be a bad, intentionally racist person to be benefiting from a system that still has inequities built into it."
I´m not sure what real purpose apologizing for the past serves. How far back in history do we go? Instead of focusing on past evils, we should be confronting the horrors of current ones, especially the slave trade in women and children.
the way I see it, we don't go and apologize for adam's sin, we are sinners because of it. the only sin we have "control" over is our own. I can tell someone that they are sinning, they can choose to do it or not, i don't need to apologize for what they have just done.....and since most americans don't know what slavery even feels like how is a apology from generations later going to make slavery ok or even heal whatever feelings people have toward the issue. The africans are not the only people that have suffered, hmm, let me see, the irish were persecuted, let's not forget the all the jews who were put in concentration camps, and the list goes on and on, many countries are still in peril where the people are killed for no reason at all.......so it is a shame that these people who had relatives that were slaves think themselves and their own to be so far above all these other people, was their suffering worse? or maybe just a little different.......I am truly sorry that all these things have happened, but we must remember that it is all part of God's plan. just like the crisis that is happening right now in this country and others. We have to trust and not keep digging up things that we can not change and had no control over in the first place. the concept of sin is not what we are asking forgiveness of, but the sin in our own hearts. if we could ask for forgiveness for someone else's sin then why would Jesus have needed to come at all....I just think that we all need to concentrate on where we each are now and that we are living for God and that we are spreading the truth about Christ and His saving grace........i think that Satan loves when we get sidetracked and lose sight of what maters above all else...............
OK, so let's see. Off the top of my head, within the last year no less than 5 apologies for this or that have been offered by major Christian denominations.
How about the major denominations all get together and apologize for anything and everything. That way, if someone has a grievance against some particular thing they can come to the conference and be apologized to unreservedly. Kind of one-stop shopping for apologies from Christians.
The next conference can be where those who have and continue to persecute Christianity (ie Muslims, Hindu's Communists, etc.) can come and apologize to Christians (yeah, I know. I'm not holding my breath on that one.).
I'm not downplaying some of the things that have been done in the name of Christianity by misguided people through the years. But sheesh, it seems like whenever some leadership council has run out of ideas, all they can come up with is "Hey, I know, let's apologize for something."
wbmoore "I simply do not understand the mentality that say I should apologize for something I had nothing to do with."
Hmmm, thats what I say about the so-called original sins of adam & eve. why should I be held accountable for something I wasnt involved in. Why should I be guilty of something I didnt do. Thats one of many reasons why the whole A&E thing seems so absurd to me. Oh, well its only a myth anyway...........
What I find funny is that we like to take credit for all the "good Christian" History of the US forefathers but we refuse to be linked to the sins that this country was built on. I also think that it is funny when oppressors tell the oppresses that they need to forgive them for the violence they inflicted, while misquoting scripture!
star, I think for the SBC it was important we did what we did because of how we came to be the SBC back in the 1800s over the issue of slavery even though a large majority of Southern Baptists did not own slaves and in fact for many the issue was not slavery but rather states rights. However, I can't speak for the black community, but I think that many needed to see we as a denomination recognize the wrongness of slavery as it was known in our country.
believer - Did the Afro-American Churches and communities just feel like they we not accepted by the SBC because of the color of their skin regardless of what may have happened to their ancestors or were they harboring ill feelings towards whites because of what happened to their ancestors? There is a big difference.
If it was the former then they learned that the SBC accepts them. If it was the later, then they must have forgiven because whatever they held against the whites would still be there. If they haven't forgiven from their heart then that unforgiveness will eventually manifest itself.
If a person who has done someone wrong and apologizes for it will always have to cater to the ill feelings of the offended if the offended doesn't forgive.
I feel like wbmoore, I see no need to apologize for something I was not a part of.
Blacks who hold it against the white man for what happened to their ancestors need to forgive. Too much emphasis is placed on the white man to apologize and make restitution and not enough emphasis placed on the blacks to forgive.
wb, the Southern Baptist Convention did a very similar thing several years ago and what it mainly did was allow the Afro-American churches and community to know we were serious about linking arms with them and all other minorities in effectively reaching our world for Christ. And it appears that it has worked since we now have a number of minority churches and ministries who are a part of the SBC and we are intentionally reaching out to minority groups, churches, and communities. So this for the SBC was much more about the present and future as opposed to our past in this matter.
Reparations change nothing. Forgiveness changes everything.
wbmoore - The Whites are having a problem with the some in the black community because those blacks refuse to forgive. I often think those blacks that harbor ill feelings towards the Whites because of their ancestors being held as slaves are using it as an excuse for their own failures in life instead of looking to themselves for the cause, or if successful, they resent being mistreated, judged, or rejected by those they know in their everyday life. Whatever the reason, they, like people of all races, need to forgive.
I don't believe slavery is a "sin" in and of itself. How the slave owner treats his slave is what makes the difference.
Also you will never escape the concept of slavery. You are always going to be a slave to something whether it is to sin or righteousness, your boss, your creditors, or to a slave owner.
Reparations are not needed. Once the Church has apologized for their forefathers "sins" then the people whose ancestors were offended need to forgive.
Unforgiveness is a sin. Jesus said that if you don't forgive God will not forgive you. If you forgive then God will set you free from bondage to the persons who have done you wrong, give you respect for them, and give you the freedom to agape love them like God wants you too. If you don't forgive from your heart then God will let the devil torment you in your relationship with them.
Blacks of today who want to hold it against the White man for enslaving their ancestors need to forgive.
I simply do not understand the mentality that say I should apologize for something I had nothing to do with.