HARTFORD, Conn. - Connecticut's Supreme Court ruled Friday that gay couples have the right to marry, making the state the third behind Massachusetts and California to legalize such unions through the courts.
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(Photo: AP Images / Bob Child)Connecticut State Sen. Andrew McDonald, D-Stamford, speaks at a rally at the State Capitol in Hartford, Conn., Friday, Oct. 10, 2008 celebrating a ruling by the Connecticut Supreme Court favoring gay marriage. Looking on is Connecticut state Rep. Michael Lawlor, D-East Haven.
The ruling comes just weeks before Californians go to the polls on a historic gay-"marriage" ballot question, the first time the issue will be put before voters.
Connecticut's court ruled 4-3 that gay and lesbian couples cannot be denied the freedom to marry under the state constitution. It was a logical next step for a state that was the first to voluntarily pass laws affirming and protecting civil unions.
"Interpreting our state constitutional provisions in accordance with firmly established equal protection principles leads inevitably to the conclusion that gay persons are entitled to marry the otherwise qualified same sex partner of their choice," Justice Richard N. Palmer wrote in the majority opinion that overturned a lower court finding.
"To decide otherwise would require us to apply one set of constitutional principles to gay persons and another to all others," Palmer wrote.
The Family Institute of Connecticut, a political action group that opposes gay "marriage," called the ruling outrageous.
"Even the legislature, as liberal as ours, decided that marriage is between a man and a woman," said executive director Peter Wolfgang. "This is about our right to govern ourselves. It is bigger than gay marriage."
Gov. M. Jodi Rell said Friday that she disagreed with the ruling, but will not fight it.
"The Supreme Court has spoken," Rell said in a statement. "I do not believe their voice reflects the majority of the people of Connecticut. However, I am also firmly convinced that attempts to reverse this decision — either legislatively or by amending the state Constitution — will not meet with success."
But House Speaker Jim Amann, a Democrat, said he expects the issue to be taken up by the General Assembly.
"The legislature, as the lawmaking branch of government, debated this issue and made Connecticut one of the few states that offers civil union status for same-sex couples," Amman said.
The lawsuit was brought in 2004 after eight same-sex couples were denied marriage licenses and sued, saying their constitutional rights to equal protection and due process were violated.
They said the state's marriage law, if applied only to heterosexual couples, denied them of the financial, social and emotional benefits of marriage.
Associated Press reporters Pat Eaton-Robb, Stephanie Reitz and Larry Smith in Hartford contributed to this report.
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I believe God. God said to have nothing to do with the empty philosophies of the world
Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
Then you don't understand philosophy my friend.
It IS true. you just don't agree with truth.
That simply is not true. If it were clear, there would be no room to debate, and there most certainly is. To say that me questioning the clarity of the Bible is equal to not believing in God is quite absurd.
Mike22685,
Autism is a condition that has a variety of causes. Some believe those causes include environment. Yet, people with autism still make choices, particularly as adults, on how to act.
Whether homosexual orientation is a choice or not does not change the fact that your actions and thoughts are not ruled by said orientation.
You can choose to believe in a god or not. You can choose to believe God or not. However, neither choice affects the truths that there IS a god, and God has made it clear exactly how He feels about homosexual sex - it is sin. If you believe it is not clear, then you are not believing God. You are putting yourself in the place of God and not honoring the truth of God - as I said before, reenacting Romans 1.
Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sistersâ€â€yes, even his own lifeâ€â€he cannot be my disciple.
Christians of California, Arizona and Florida, please all vote YES on your marriage issues.
California: Vote Yes on 8 (volunteer at www.ProtectMarriage.com)
Arizona: Vote Yes on Proposition 20 (volunteer at www.AZforMarriage.com)
Florida: Vote Yes on Amendment 2 (www.Yes2Marriage.org)
apart from honoring mother and father, and jesus protection of the little ones i see nothing of the obseession about family in scripture.
but i would say that if in your heart you believe you are loving your homosexual neighbor as yourself by denying him the right to marry then i would say vote for it.
WB, by your argument, autism is a choice since it relates to environment. Your arguments are empty because they will simply help you not question your bible, which I find pathetic. To question is to grow.
feet, plus you seem to think the 2nd part of the Great Commandment is limited to the New Covenant, but I would encourage you to read Leviticus 19:18.
feet, you seem to have no problem citing the 2nd part of the Great Commandment, but yet you seldom if ever speak to the 1st part of it. The part that Christ referred to when He said if we love God we'll keep His commands. Why is that?
jc
and about this........being led by the spirit in contrast to being led by the law
THE NEXT VERSE9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
why be led by what caused death. paul says the law is holy. but in his explanation of our new relationship to the law paul says it is for CONSCIOUS.
christ gives us three commandments of love. one being the summation of all the law...............loving ones neighbor as oneself. so now the law is to a make us conscious of loving our neighbor as ourself.
but our understanding and interpretation of the law does not lead our witness of the spirit, but rather, IT IS THE LEADING OF THE SPIRIT, our witness of the spirit, that leads our understanding and interpretation of the law.
To Feetxxxl:
Beloved, you need to keep reading down the page, for verse 11 and 12 say: "For sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."
Verse 13 further says: "Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful."
You said: "that is not true many of the prohibitions of the old covenant were of themselves, NOT sins"
Beloved, are the 10 commandments still valid? Would it now not be wrong to commit murder?
You said: "then are you saying the christ is the law?"
Yes, beloved, that is exactly what I am saying, because that is what the Bible says. If it were not so, I would not tell you that. You could easily prove me wrong by looking this information, therefore I would have no credibility from which to stand. But I stand on what is written, as Jesus came to fulfill what is written, not to nullify it.
You said: "
it is no trap.....................................if the answer is none, then it reaffirms romans 1:20 and what is written becomes a reminder of what we already know from having been created thru the spirit of christ."
Beloved, Romans 1:20 says this: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." Verse 21 goes a little further and states this: "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
Beloved, are you sure you want to use this verse, for this describes what happens to those who ignore what is written? In no way does this suggest a nullification of what was already written.
Beloved, let me ask you a simple question: Did Jesus live an "alternative", or homosexual lifestyle?
You said: "neither you nor anyone else has been able to answer that question.........instead this scripture is looked on as being non existent."
Beloved, why are you living only by what is written in Romans 7:6 "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."?
I only ask, because who ever has pointed this out to you didn't bother to show what is written in the very next verse, Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
THE NEXT VERSE9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
why be led by what caused death. paul says the law is holy. but in his explanation of our new relationship to the law paul says it is for CONSCIOUS.
christ gives us three commandments of love. one being the summation of all the law...............loving ones neighbor as oneself. so now the law is to a make us conscious of loving our neighbor as ourself.
but our understanding and interpretation of the law does not lead our witness of the spirit, but rather, IT IS THE LEADING OF THE SPIRIT, our witness of the spirit, that leads our understanding and interpretation of the law.
CONTINUED
CONTINUED
Beloved, sin is sin. If it was sin in the Old Testament, it is sin in the New Covenant as well, as we see Paul just stated.
that is not true many of the prohibitions of the old covenant were of themselves, NOT sins
32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
You said: "ANOTHER NOT TO BE ANSWERED QUESTION where does scripture say we say specifically that we are led by the law....................romans says specifically we are led by the spirit. ARE YOU SAYING THE LAW IS THE SPIRIT?"
Yes beloved, I am saying that, because that is what is written in the Bible. Revelation 19:13 says "He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God". Is not the Old Testament a part of The Word of God? Again, read this for yourself beloved, the answers you seek are in there.
then are you saying the christ is the law?
You asked: "ANOTHER NOT TO BE ANSWERED QUESTIONapart from your own laws about homosexuality and of marriage. what written law is there in scripture that had it not been written you would not have known that what the law spoke about was against christ?"
it is no trap.....................................if the answer is none, then it reaffirms romans 1:20 and what is written becomes a reminder of what we already know from having been created thru the spirit of christ.
Just an update. My Army boy made specialist and is in the middle east right now. He's part of a 'house clearing team'. His leave is coming up so he should be home to visit within 60 days.
"Online, its really not. You telling me I was no born gay is like telling someone who is black they chose their skin color."
Nope. Not right. The issues here on this site are from a Christian perspective. Simply put, I believe the Bible. Either you do or you don't. I beleive God wrote the Bible through the hands of man. Evidence Which Demands a Verdict shows more than enough proof.
As all of us have been telling you...it boils down to what you believe. You believe you were born gay. The Bible says God thinks homosexuality is 'disgusting'. We are all waiting for "dad to get home". Once He's here He will state face to face His position.
Good parents post their 'rules' so everyone knows what is expected. He did this in the Bible. Not only did He give a rule but even went further to say how he felt about the behavior. He said it was disgusting.
When God created He looked at what He had created and said it was 'good'. There is no account in the Bible where He said he created something and it was 'disgusting'.
In short, you're logic is not based on the Bible. It is based on what you want. This is quite common here in America. The Bible never says God wants you to be happy! It does say God wants you to be 'content' which is quite different. The Bible never says God wants everyone to be in possession of much earthly wealth. There are many things which Americans try to shape the Bible into supporting which is just simply not there.
Our job is to warn you. We care for your eternal soul as well as your earthly soul. (Interesting the Greek has a word for both.) My son joined the Army because he was 'tired of people like me telling him what to do'. His ROTC commanders in high school tried to tell him the Army was different from high school ROTC but he 'knew better'. Once he got there face to face his 'knowledge' changed. :-) (oh...mama!)
The choice is yours. Deal with it now or wish you had then. It's the same for all of us gay or straight in all areas of our lives.
To Feetxxxl:
You said: "neither you nor anyone else has been able to answer that question.........instead this scripture is looked on as being non existent."
Beloved, why are you living only by what is written in Romans 7:6 "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."?
I only ask, because who ever has pointed this out to you didn't bother to show what is written in the very next verse, Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
Beloved, sin is sin. If it was sin in the Old Testament, it is sin in the New Covenant as well, as we see Paul just stated.
You said: "ANOTHER NOT TO BE ANSWERED QUESTION where does scripture say we say specifically that we are led by the law....................romans says specifically we are led by the spirit. ARE YOU SAYING THE LAW IS THE SPIRIT?"
Yes beloved, I am saying that, because that is what is written in the Bible. Revelation 19:13 says "He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God". Is not the Old Testament a part of The Word of God? Again, read this for yourself beloved, the answers you seek are in there.
You asked: "ANOTHER NOT TO BE ANSWERED QUESTIONapart from your own laws about homosexuality and of marriage. what written law is there in scripture that had it not been written you would not have known that what the law spoke about was against christ?"
Beloved, this is a trap question and I will not get pulled into this circular reasoning by "what if's". I am only here to tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear.
Beloved, I do this because of the love that I have in my heart, not to condemn you, for my sins are too numerous for me to judge. I am only trying to get you to see what the truth is. For this truth shall set you free in ways you cannot possibly imagine, and once realized, can never live without. Beloved, we're not crazy radical evangelists, we're just telling you what is written, that's all, nothing more. I implore you dear one, look for these things yourself. Stop taking other's words for what is written, for if they deceive, they truly have their rewards.
It has been said that 95% of all spiritual battle occurs within our own minds. Would it not then be wise to arm oneself with the truth, to seek all that is written?
mike, feet, i have had enough. You can have your beliefs. Goodbye. I shake my feet clean, I am free from your blood. It is upon your own heads.
Mike,
if you were not born gay does not mean you consciously chose to be gay. You've previously said we do not understand the development of the consciousness. It may have been environment. Plus, it may be God has given people over to their sins because of what they have done/desired, or because of their parents (to the third/fourth generation), as we have no idea if that is speaking physically or environmentally or emotionally or mentally or what.
There are numerous possibilities that do not necessitate you having consciously chosen to be gay.
Online, its really not. You telling me I was no born gay is like telling someone who is black they chose their skin color. Sexual orientation, although we do not know what causes it, is not something we choose. Whether genetic or prenatal, it is determined before birth. I choose to be in a relationship, absolutely! I know I am in love, not lust, and that love is not something that hurts anyone. My partner and I bring out the best in each other, and someday we will adopt children who so desperately need a loving home.
feet,
I ask you once again to address the verses and questions presented to you in my posts referenced by the following dates and times:
Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:20 pm
Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:07 am
Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:10 am
Mike,
The argument that God made me gay; is like saying – I steal; I kill; I lust; I am an adulterer so God must have made me that way. God is never responsible for our poor choices.
(When in your heart of hearts you know it is not)
Our sinful hearts simply cannot be trusted; our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked according to (Jeremiah 17:9). When we determine what is and what is not permissible we set aside his Word and usurp Gods authority. I agree, God knows your heart and your life is in his hands. I pray that his Spirit will continue to impress upon you not only his love but his scriptural truth.
jc
neither you nor anyone else has been able to answer that question.........instead this scripture is looked on as being non existent.
do away with law????....................where did you get that??.....................my point was that under the new covenant, believers having died with christ to the law...............resurrected to be under grace..........that believers are now led by the spirit, rather than the law.
ANOTHER NOT TO BE ANSWERED QUESTION where does scripture say we say specifically that we are led by the law....................romans says specifically we are led by the spirit. ARE YOU SAYING THE LAW IS THE SPIRIT?
paul says that the things of the sin nature are obvious ........meaning by the essence of their very nature it is obvious that they come against the spirit of christ..
ANOTHER NOT TO BE ANSWERED QUESTIONapart from your own laws about homosexuality and of marriage. what written law is there in scripture that had it not been written you would not have known that what the law spoke about was against christ?
Just as you should be careful saying homosexuality is merely a behavior. You have no proof I was not born gay, my experience is more valid than your opinion.
There are many things Christ didn't address because they just wouldn't make sense in context. He didn't address drinking and driving either. Anyone want to argue against how stupid dwi is?
He said what needed to be said. One man, one woman. (Please note the period.)
"but when you are born gay and you have people with no scientific background telling you "
People with no scientific proof are telling you that you were born gay. What's the difference. You believe you were born gay because it brings comfort to your lifestyle. The other name for it is denial.
I was born white...check my skin.
I was born with red hair...it's still there.
I was born male...you figure out what to check.
There is no evidence anyone is born to a type of behavior. In the psyc world that only applies when you are talking about someone who is abnormal to the point of mental illness.
You might want to be careful with that 'born gay' arguement!
Online, I understand your reason for quoting from the Bible, but when you are born gay and you have people with no scientific background telling you that you are not because the Bible says so, and the Bible says I must not be Christian for growing into the person I am, you get a little tired of it being flagged around as "truth" when in your heart of hearts you know it is not. As I've said before, I have faith that God knows my heart and will see me as a follower on the Last Day.
So forgive us (for) quoting from its pages.
(I believe the biggest thing is he taught us how to pray and how to love one another.)
I agree that Jesus taught us how to love one another but love will never drown out truth. This same Jesus who teaches us to love one another also says, And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free (John 8:32). This truth is found in his Word; Jesus again says, Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth (John 17:17). So forgive us from quoting from its pages.
mike22685, Christ didn't speak to contraceptives because they did not exist. People who were committing acts of sexual intimacy with someone of the same sex did. If God condones those types of relationships why did Christ not speak to that issue? Let me answer the question for you, because He didn't have to since the people knew that it was a sin to have sexual intimacy with anyone other than with someone of the opposite sex who was their spouse. Nor did He need to speak to rape since the people knew that violated God's law as well. Once again Christ clearly stated what God defined as marriage and that is one man and one woman for life alone. Plus, as far as Him selecting only men to be His Apostles. God's Word clearly states that a woman should not hold a position in the Church that would give her automatic spiritual headship over a man or men. That being the case Christ would only call men to be Apostles because they would go on to be the leaders of His Church and they would indeed have spiritual headship over men. And in fact Christ did speak up for women and raised them to a higher level of respect and honor than most women found themselves in at that time in history.
The issue is not whether Christ existed. The issue is not whether Christ said the bread was His body. If it is literal, then it is supernatural in nature.
But so too is the creation of the universe, the world, mankind, and the flood. The thing is, if you want to deny the power of God to do these things, what makes you think God has the power to do the other?
Believer, you have said it yourself before: Christ was silent on the issue of contraceptives because people would not have understood it. The idea of homosexuality as loving couples was not something even discussed, and so Christ was silent about it. Christ used men instead of women as his followers because women would not have been allowed to speak up the way men were at that time. Christ has a history of speaking to the times, and so we cannot use what Christ said about marriage as a means of denying gay couples the right to marry.
WB, the Eucharist is a spiritual matter. People were there to document what Christ said, rather than the writers of Exodus who were not there during Adam and Eve, so they either heard it through word of mouth or wrote what they felt God was moving them to talk about. There is historical evidence about a figure known as Christ who was described as having a cult like following. There is no historical evidence that the entire population of the world evolved from a man and woman who magically appeared out of sand and a rib.
MSNchris, although I disagree with your views, I respect them because they are at least consistent. I get annoyed when others accuse me of being an "a la carte" christian when they do the same thing themselves.
mike22685, for the sake of the discussion let's leave Adam and Eve out of the discussion and focus on Christ and His words alone. Christ declared that marriage in the sight of God was the marriage of one man and one woman for life. That being the case regardless of what the civil authorities say or do if you and your partner are or do get married as a result of the civil authorities allowing and performing same-sex marriages that marriage will still be illegitimate in the sight of God, therefore if you and your partner have sexual intimacy, in the eyes of God that is sin because God's Word declares that sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one woman united in marriage in the sight of God.
Mike,
You stated you "do not believe Adam and Eve were real: It goes against science and logical thinking." Yet, you also stated that you believe the Eucharist is the body of Christ and the wine is the blood of Christ.
Please explain how believing in Adam and Eve is less scientific and logical than believing that a piece of bread is the body of a man dead 2000 years.
I have not said that believing in the eucharist makes you not saved, nor have I stated its corallary. That is not the problem. The problem is not believing what God has written in place A, yet believing it in place B. What makes place A more acceptable to believe than place B, expecially when both are beyond the realm of the natural laws?
The Word of God doesn't tear down anyone, it build us up. The Word of God says we should love the sinner, and yet hate the sin. If we hate the sin, then maybe we should vote against that sin. We can outvote them, but you think that means we hate the gays or something. We don't hate them at all. In fact, the vast majority of hospitals who help gays especially when they need counseling and health services are Christian groups. We don't judge them, that is for God to do. They are loved by God, but by their actions they reject God.
Just because we believe that you shouldn't redefine marriage, doesn't mean we hate them. We simply do not approve of equating both unions as equal, which they are not.
I take Adam and Eve Literally and I also take the Eucharist literally.
Since Christ is the foundation of all society since he built the foundation of the world, shouldn't we make laws that honor God. I personally don't care if there are people who are not religious and don't like what the Good Book says about homosexuals. We are a society built by the people and while us Christians are still in the majority, we will make laws that honor our God.
Mike,
Being an Ala Carte Christian and only taking bits and pieces you like is not being a Christian, my friend. You have to take the whole of Scripture, which is inspired and without error.
Ala Carte Christians are dangerous. They are a new form of relativism.
Again, you take Adam and Eve literally, then take "unless you eat my body and drink my blood" figuratively. If I take Adam and Eve figuratively, I must not be a true Christian. You just admitted that you INTERPRET the verse about the eucharist differently from catholics, and who is to say who is right? I interpret Adam and Eve and Noah differently, and you accuse me of not being a Christian. I do believe Jesus was here, and I believe the biggest thing is he taught us how to pray and how to love one another. The fact that you use the word of God to tear others down so consistently is obnoxious and not of God.
To Feetxxxl:
What do you suppose Jesus was saying when he said this:
"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets."
Why was Jesus quoting the law if he came to nullify it?
Beloved, your argument about the law being nullified by Jesus doesn't hold water, especially when held against God's word.
Open your eyes dear one, to The One who will show you what the real truth is. Let Him open your eyes. Pick up the Bible and read it for yourself, please. Stop listening to those who translate it according to their lusts and their desires. For these have already received their reward.
Beloved, think about what is at stake here; You either let God open your eyes, and change your life to what He has in store for you, and He will let you stay for all eternity in what Jesus called "Paradise". Or, you continue in this lifestyle, you die, and you make it to Paradise and see what is there, you will see Him who sits on the Throne, but beloved, you will not stay there. You will have been there just long enough to know what you are missing, in Hell. You will know what His law said, you will know His love He had for you, and you will know that He is never-changing. And, beloved, you will know that you will never ever leave the torment, the fire, the darkness. This you will know, as all the inhabitants of Hell will know, for they did see God too, but they did not stay.
Beloved, I know it is harsh, but it is reality. One goes to one place or another, there is no inbetween, or "opting out" available. You can know for sure which place you go to before then beloved, you don't have to go to that awful place of torment. Open your eyes to the One who gave you life, to the One who set things in motion, to the One who is capable of anything and everthing. He can change your life completely around and awake you to what is real truth.
But as for all of us beloved, it starts with you. Jesus will help you, He is knocking and calling you everyday and is waiting for you to lift your hand for help, but it has to start with you. As with all of us, we have to take that first step of faith, from there, He will take it.
Mike,
Picking and choosing which portions of scripture that will become authoritative in ones life makes it convenient, does it not? In regard to the Lords supper, my answer is identical as believers; there is no question that Jesus instituted it as a memorial. Since you set aside most of the Old Testament; here are a few passages in the New Testament where Jesus and Paul specifically mention the creation, Adam and Eve, the fall, the authority of scripture, and the natural order of pairing together the man and the woman. Will you now delete these NT passages in order to keep your world view?
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (Matthew 19:4).
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female (Mark 10:6).
For Adam was first formed, then Eve (1Timothy 2:13).
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression (1 Timothy 2:14).
Mike,
I've already shown where Christ used an analogy when speaking of the eucharist (http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/the_lords_supper_eucharist_and_wine_body_and_blood_of_christ_or_analogy/). But like believer said, a disagreement of how to interpret what Christ said at the last supper is not the same thing as saying it never happened. This is what you are saying about the things God has said are bad: its a story.
The Old Testament is the history of God's interaction with mankind through the eyes of a specific group of people. It is replete with verifiable historical information. IT has prophecies that point to the coming of the messiah. These prophecies came true in the person of Christ. If you do not believe the Old Testament, why do you think you can believe anything in the New Testament?
It seems to me that when someone posts something in the news, you claim that either it could not have happened, or they are biased or flat out lying. You treat the Bible similiarly: when it is something you dont like, it was a story.
Are there parts of the Bible you think are true?
mike2685, your talking apples and oranges, the verses that define marriage as between one man and one woman is cut and dry and are stated in both the Old and New Testament. Whereas the disagreement with regards to the Lord's Supper is not that we should or should not celebrate the Lord's Supper, but does the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. There is no doubt that Christ instituted the Lord's Supper as there is no doubt that God instituted marriage and clearly defined it as being between one man and one woman for life.
feet, God's Great Commandment is a summary of all the other commands we are to obey if we truly love Christ. All other laws are in a sense a reflection of our love for God and our love for others. The Great Commandment does not negate the other commands that God has given us in His Word.
Online and WB, then I go back to the question I have asked before when this comes up. Christ said "Unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you shall not have life within you." Catholics believe this means the Eucharist, evangelicals often INTERPRET it differently. To me, not believing Jesus was literal there is the same and not believing the Old Testament was literal for much of it. I believe the Old Testament has stories of God's strength and rewards for peoples faith in him, all paving the way for Jesus to come.
feet,
Jesus said in John 14:15,
If you love me, you will obey what I command.
What Jesus said about sin,
Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.
John 5:14
Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
Jesus said in John 14:23-24 to obey Him, or you don't love Him,
23 Jesus replied, "All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them. 24 Anyone who doesn't love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me. "
And since you brought up 1 John, I thought I'd let you know what God said through John about obedience,
1 John 2:4-6
4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 5:2-4
2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
2 John 1:5-6
5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
feet, but once again Jesus said if you love Me you will keep my commands.
the three commandments of love as reaffirmed in 1john
feet,
What did Paul mean when he wrote in 2 Cor 12:21 about people sinning and not repenting?
21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.
Mike,
(I do not believe Adam and Eve were real: It goes against science and logical thinking.)
How do you reconcile this statement with your earlier one (I have a strong faith in God); which God, evidently it is not the God who has revealed himself through scripture. Both of these statements contradict each other.
"the belief in Adam and Eve is religiously related, not civilly"
For anyone who trusts God and believes His word, there is no separation between the spiritual and the physical life in terms of whether to live convictions or not. To hold a conviction is to live that conviction. To hold a belief is to think without acting upon it.
Mike,
As much as you don't want to admit it, man only gets to pretend they know what is right. We have two choices on how to decide what is right: God's word, or man's thoughts. But it is GOD, who created everything, who decides what is Right, and HE has already told us what is Right. It is our choice to go along with Him or not. But you, like all of us, will answer to God when He judges. I only pray your right is in line with His Right when that time comes.
Our nation's morals are going down the drain, and in time, God will no longer with hold His wrath because of it. If the people in this country do not move back to God, and stop calling evil what HE called good, and vice-versa, He WILL stop being long suffering in regards to this nation. He has done it in the past, as His word tells us. He can do it again.
Prophet, the belief in Adam and Eve is religiously related, not civilly. Government rights are not connected to your religious beliefs, which differ strongly from mine and many other Americans. While you can profess your beliefs all you want, we CAN NOT use them as the foundation of our society, because they are not. I do not believe Adam and Eve were real: It goes against science and logical thinking. If you believe that, fine, but your beliefs cannot trump mine legally, hence why states like CT had the law decided outside the realm of a popular vote because the popular vote can be bought by adds like "Christians" are running for Prop. 8 in CA right now. What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right.
Mike,
You said "Believer, if you believe adam and eve were the first married couple, thats fine, but there are many who don't, and so no, civil marriage was not instituted by God."
Those who don't believe that Adam and Eve were the first married couple are deceived and propigating a lie. God created sex and marriage for a man and a woman. Sex and marriage is the reunion of that which God divided in the beginning. If you notice that God separated woman from man...not man from man.
wb, I agree with you 110% with the faith issue, to me my faith in God is now part of my DNA, it defines who I am as a child of God, as a person, and it impacts every area of my life.
feet, but once again Jesus said if you love Me you will keep my commands.
feet,
What did Paul mean in 1 Corinthians 5:2-5 when he wrote,
2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
or in verse 11, where he wrote,
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What did Paul mean, when he wrote in Romans 6:15-16,
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey - whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
jc
what does paul's statement mean to you about us believers having died to the law with christ and are ressurrected with him to live under grace?
consider using paul's example about marital laws in romans 7.
jc
you make my point about being firmly planted in the old covenant.
surely you know the fulfillment of the law is love.
I agree with believer.
I also think that to separate one's faith from life is to essentially have no faith at all. The reason I say this is that if you hold a conviction, this conviction should affect your daily life. If it does not, it is merely a belief, a thought if you will.
A false separation between the religious world and the "secular" world became espoused during the "age of reason". This has been carried forward into today's world. We have been taught by people who want to reason that they should be able to do what they desire. Some will add "as long as it does not adversely affect others". But essentially, it was done, and is done, by people who do not love and obey God wanting others to not condemn them or their actions, regardless of whether God would approve or not. They call it freedom, but it is slavery to sin. They want to do what they want to do and the consequences matter little or nothing. However, they ignore the very real consequence of what God has said happens to those who turn to iniquity, rather than turning to Him.
For those who believe that Messiah has come, or will come, they have ben given instructions on how to live. They have been given instructions on what God approves of and what He disapproves of. He has made it clear what happens to those people and nations who ignore His word and turn to iniquity. As such, any one who truly believes in God and what He has to say should make every effort to ensure they move closer to God, rather than away from Him (this includes becoming more righteous). As such, anyone who truly believes God should make every effort to ensure the people in their sphere of influence move towards God, and not away from Him. As such, anyone who truly believes God should make every effort to ensure their nation moves towards God and His righteousness and not away from Him towards iniquity. To do otherwise is to invite God's wrath upon themselves, those they love, and their nation.
We live in a representative democracy. As such, it is our responsibility to vote. In general, the most votes wins (I realize that is a simplistic and not quite accurate portrayal of our system, but it suffices for our purposes). It is appropriate to vote based upon what you think is the best thing - but if one claims to love God, those thoughts should be influenced by what God has said.
Anyone who claims to love God and believe what He has provided in terms of what He approves and disapproves of should be influenced by what God has said when they make choices that affect their daily lives. This would include voting for a candidate or a constitutional amendment or a law. Their vote should be influenced by what God has said.
Thus, it is an empty argument to claim to love God and yet not vote according to what God has written.
I do not have time to address this fully at this point (and I'm not sure I desire to, since I feel civil government should reflect the morals of God as defined in the Bible, without being a theocracy). However, I have written something a while back that does address this.
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/utilitarian-perspective-on-sex-outside-of-marriage-cohabitation-abortion-and-divorce/
yes, why is it okay to voice support for one candidate over another, but wrong to voice support for one side of an issue over another? Isn't that very freedom what makes America great, the freedom to both agree and disagree?
yes, considering I served my country for over 21 years in the military I really don't think my patriotism is in question here.
Believer, I admire the firmness of your belief but it makes me wonder how you reconcile your faith with your patriotism. Personally, I have drawn a line between matters of my faith and matters of society and government, but based upon what you've written I could imagine that such an idea would be repulsive to you. As such, would it be fair to say that you would favor getting rid of that whole constitution thing and replacing it, in toto, with the bible? I understand you're doing what you believe is G-d's will but it just doesn't seem to mesh with the American paradigm to support initiatives that undercut and run afoul of the most basic and fundamental governmental principles that this country was founded on.
I would rather believe that G-d loves all his creations who are humble and pay him respect in thought and deed and be wrong than ascribe to the school of thought that says "only we're saved and if you don't do as we say you're doomed" and be right. This is both with respect to Christianity and Judaism and all other religions alike. I hold my faith very dear to my heart and live my life in accordance with the values I was taught in Hebrew School and Hebrew High School along with those imparted by my parents; however, I find there to be no excuse to recreate America in my religion's conception of what must be done. To do so would be to eradicate what makes America great, namely the ability to escape persecution and harshly enforced, overly restrictive norms that derive from any given religious text, and live in a free society.
Again, I respect all of you and the beliefs you hold. It just that in your well-intentioned quest to do G-d's work that you overlook the fact that others have their own beliefs that they hold just as firmly, and to which they are entitled. By injecting your faith into civil government it adversely affects those of other faiths and lifestyles and the purpose of government is to serve the people, ALL THE PEOPLE.
To feetxxxl:
You said: "one thing that has remained consistent in this discussion is that those who see homosexuality as a sin also...
credit themselves with knowing the mind of god.
stand with one foot firmly implanted in the old covenant."
You, feet, who are so loved by Him, more than you can possibly know, are thinking from a false assumption that Jesus came to abolish the law. He did not. He spoke of this Himself directly to the disciples. For it is written in Matthew 5:17-18: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
Beloved, don't be fooled by those who teach what is against God's word. Adam did this, and where did it get him?
Beloved, the book of Romans, 1st. Corinthians, and 1st Timothy, (all New Testament), all speak against this lifestyle. It also speaks of the consequences of continued behavior as well. This is not interpretation, it's just plain reading the words for what they say.
Could it possibly be that the interpretation is not what is bothering you, but rather the fact that the Bible even says that this is unacceptable, and you do not want to give up this lifesytle? Could it be that you are attempting to justify your position on other's translation of the Bible, and not taking it at face value for yourself?
Beloved, please do not think of this as an attack on you personally, this is not my intention. My only intention is to get you to look at His word for yourself, not to condemn you. I only want you to see Him, so that you and I one day will worship Him side by side.
yes and mike2685, you're both 100% correct in the eyes of the civil authorities if same-sex marriage laws are passed those who enter into them would be legally married, but in the sight of God they would not be and as a Christian my main desire is to not only do what's right in the sight of God, but to encourage those like you Mike who profess to be Christians to do the same. It is also my Christian responsibility to do all in my power to encourage the civil authorities, the government, to do the same. My reason for doing that is because God's Word clearly states that God honors the nation whose leaders honor Him and I desire Him to not only honor us but bless us as He has done in many ways since our founding. That is why I am compelled to both speak against and vote against any person or issue that does not honor Him and same sex marriage and abortion are two of those issues that do not honor God because both violate His Word, the Bible.
Again, you are missing the point. It's not about what you believe has been decreed from above. The issue is how CIVIL GOVERNMENTS treat this matter of gay marriage.
Could someone please come forward and make a good argument, in terms of society and government, as to why gays should be denied the rights and benefits that straight married couples enjoy? WBMoore, I'm looking in your general direction...
Relax, folks. God has already defined marriage in His Word as between one man and one woman. Nothing man does can change that. Governments can only decide to oppose or agree with what has already been done. But the standard remains.
Mike has hit on the issue I continually come back to. Marriage began as a religious institution but has over time become a facet of civil government. Certainly the church blesses the marriage (between a man and a woman) but it is the government that infuses the marriage with legal recognition and discernible benefits and rights that the couple would not otherwise have. For that reason alone, religion should not be involved in determining who may enjoy these benefits, but rather it should be left to the respective governmental bodies to reach a decision in a democratic process that follows both the state and federal constitutions. Equal protection and due process require that one group not be treated differently from another without adequate justification. I could bore you all with the rigors of how adequate the justification must be in order to stand up to judicial scrutiny, but suffice it to say that religious beliefs are not sufficiently adequate to treat gays differently. I recognize that you all think that it's a sin and that they will burn for all eternity for giving into their sinful desires; however, that is not a sound basis for crafting social policy. No one is asking you to cease your self-imposed duty to "save everyone" through the teachings of Christianity. I think what people are asking is that these attempts to "save everyone" should be done through the carrot instead of the stick. Laws and social policy should not be crafted to align with any particular religion because there is no official American religion. Just as Sharia law, in my opinion, is inappropriate for the resolution of disputes in the US likewise Christian ideals are an improper basis for determining individual rights. Try to save people, but when they refuse your offers of salvation leave them to their chosen fate.
Those are your beliefs for your religion. No 1 religion determines civil government, and therefore, as far as the benefits of civil marriage is concerned, religion has no say over it. The blessing of the union is something I do not believe churches should be forced to give, and have already said I would vehemently oppose any attempts to force them to do so. See, we can all live in harmony!
mike2685, Christ affirmed the definition of marriage as one man and one woman united as one for life in the New Testament as well, so once again it doesn't matter what the civil authorities choose to recognize as a legal marriage, in the sight of God it will always be one man and one woman united together as one for life. So if you and your partner are or do get married and have sexual intimacy it will be seen as sin in the sight of God since sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one women inited as one in the sight of God through matrimony, regardless of what the civil authorities say.
feet, no, we don't know the mind of God, but we do know what the Word of God says on this issue!
one thing that has remained consistent in this discussion is that those who see homosexuality as a sin also...
credit themselves with knowing the mind of god.
stand with one foot firmly implanted in the old covenant.
jc
without annotation how can i respond..........it then becomes one opinion versus another.
anyone can recite scripture. its another thing when some one explains how the words in the designated scripture supports someone's point. but this is really moot, because discussion has long been suspended..........with responses like" it doesnt make any difference what points are brought up, god has ordained marriage and marital relations for only heterosexuals" ..........just like fixed dice they are only capable of coming up with one combination.
Believer, if you believe adam and eve were the first married couple, thats fine, but there are many who don't, and so no, civil marriage was not instituted by God.
mike2685, marriage was instituted by God in the beginning when He created Adam and Eve and it is the union of one man and one woman for life. Government did not even exist so therefore government can change its format all they want but in the sight of God if the ceremonies the government allows or performs is not in agreement with God's design then in His sight that couple is not married. So if you and your partner are or go get married, it may be recognized by the civil authorities but it will not be recognized by God, so in the sight of God you and your partner will still be living in sin if you continue to have sexual intimacy with one another because sexual intimacy in the sight of God is reserved for the marriage bed.
To Feetxxxl:
You said: "consider more annotation. you make references about this or that being clear. please give the annotation and explain how the words of those verses make your point."
Feet, come on, we've been giving you scripture after scripture. We've shown you where homosexuality is condemned in the Bible. We've shown you where these will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
I feel the problem here in this situation is not our unwillingness to display the scripture, to reveal the truth, but rather your ability to accept it as truth. Beloved, I can really tell you have such a desire to become right with God, enter into His Kingdom, and partake in the tree of life, otherwise you would not be here. But, beloved, unless you accept what He says as truth, this will never become a reality for you.
Beloved, Jesus said that the Father seeks those who worship Him in both spirit and in truth. The truth part is very relevant here, for without the truth, true worship is impossible. Unless one accepts what is truth, one cannot offer an acceptable worship to Him who defines truth.
You said: "i find it difficult to understand how you put such limits on a one flesh relationship.................doesn't scripture direct it."
No feet, scripture does no direct this. Rather, the opposite. It is well documented in the New Testament that we are to deny our flesh, both it's lusts and desires. I would recommend that you search this out dear one, there is much information to be gained here.
You said: "do not marriage counselors either clergy or laity when counseling a married couple ascertain the frenquency and satisfaction of the sexual intimacy of the couple in the same way a doctor takes a blood pressure and white cell count reading to ascertain the health of the body of the patient?"
Beloved, the above statement would indicate that you are basing this entire relationship on sexual gratification. Beloved, this can really get one in a lot of trouble because one day, the flesh will be gone. If one bases a relationship on something that will one day be gone, what profit is there in this?
Beloved, if I may, what church do you attend? I would like to know who is teaching you that homosexuality is approved of by God. This is not what His word teaches, and God will hold this one far more accountable than those who are being misled.
Believer, marriage as a sacrament was instituted by God, and therefore churches have every right to deny me marriage and I will actually fight for churches to maintain that right without losing their tax exempt status. Civil marriage is a government issue, and therefore religion should not be the sole dictator of it. If the citizens voting have a religious background and vote that way, fine, but government also represents the will of atheists and people like myself who support gay marriage and think it should be legal. Sometimes, democracy does not rely on the popular vote.
yes, marriage was instituted by God not by government, so based on that passage of Scripture you cited it should be up to the Church to determine what is the definition of marriage and according to the Word of God in both the Old and New Testament it is the joining of one man and one woman for life in the presence of God.
"Excellent point, government may allow same sex couples all the benefits that they desire but in Gods eyes, will these unions be legitimate marriages, I think not? Why . . . because he explicitly speaks against such practices in his Word?"
But that's the entire point of what I'm saying. I trust the Christian community to decide for itself what is right and how best to obey heavenly dictates. That in no way, however, affects the separate sphere of government. If or when those gays who avail themselves of the right to marry are wrong or sinners then they'll have an eternity to come to grips with that.
(This aforementioned government operates independently from the Church and its scriptures, as it should with all religions because it is not a theocracy.)
Excellent point, government may allow same sex couples all the benefits that they desire but in Gods eyes, will these unions be legitimate marriages, I think not? Why . . . because he explicitly speaks against such practices in his Word?
"My partner and I might go as Adam and Steve for Halloween."
My wife and her roomie went to a party in college. They were both nursing students. One was wearing army pants and the other was wearing the army shirt. They went as an 'upper and lower GI'....
Our faith in medical science is really over-rated. The best way to explain it is in construction terms. We are bearly able to 'survey' the site (DNA) let alone create a level field to work on and doing the 'punch list' is no where in sight.
My guess is you will be able to ask God in person before science gets even close to any 'objective' data either way. By objective I mean data that is not interpreted. For example "the sun heats the earths surface" has objective data to support it. Gravity works has data that is objective. Anyone who thinks gravity is subject to interpretation has never flown in an airplane....
Jew,
Nice job of pulling scripture out of context. Jesus was speaking of paying taxes. That's about it.
This is the posts that are being flagged...
Homosexuality is a sin. God created marriage and sex for one man and one woman as described in Genesis. Jesus Himself even quoted that scripture, so that it is clear that God approves of sex between a man and a woman only. Anyone who willingly remains in that sin will share the same judgement as murderer, drunks, and liars.
It is truly astounding to see the same inane arguments put forward on this subject time and time again. The basic problem is that you, as the collective, dare I say fundamentalist, Christian community confuse religion with law. The two are hardly the same. To pull a line from the book you love and regard so highly, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s." - Matthew 22:21.
It is more than within your right as individuals and religious institutions to decline to recognize same sex couples as legitimate or worthy of having a member of your clergy preside over such a wedding. On the other hand, it is in no way within your right to deny the legal right to marry. The court was completely correct that it is a matter of equal protection and basic due process rights under both the state and federal constitutions. Marriage is not just about the union in the spiritual sense. It carries with it a host of benefits.
I'll skip over the incest, bestiality, pedophilia, and other slippery slope arguments because they're simply alarmist and irrelevant.
The bottom line is that there are rights provided to each citizen by the government. This aforementioned government operates independently from the Church and its scriptures, as it should with all religions because it is not a theocracy. We simply cannot tell two consenting non-related adults that they are ineligible for the rights and benefits of married couples based upon their gender. Perhaps we should reform marriage such that all individuals wishing to be married would have to prove that they're in a monogamous relationship based upon genuine affection and love before being eligible to obtain a marriage license? Oh wait, that couldn't work since as I recall from these comment threads gays are incapable of love. To prove how ridiculous that comment is here is another one equally as preposterous: Christians are incapable of logical thought. See how absurd it is to make these sweeping statements?
JC, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Your post made perfect sense to someone not blinded by the enemy. May God continue to bless you as you serve Him faithfully.
I have not seen these comments yet. Can CP kindly show us the abusive comments from prophet?
Little, if any, of what Prophet has written and has been flagged was abusive. It may have ben a tad harsh, but not abusive. Prophet's posts were flagged because someone either does not agree with Prophet or does not like him.
feet,
It is the Creator is who determines if a relationship is healthy or even acceptable, not a pastor or marriage counselor. They may of course have their opinion, but God's opinion is the one that matters. He has made it clear what he thinks of homosexual sex. Since the Creator (God) has said that homosexual sex is an abomination, along with other sexual sins, then any relationship between people of the same gender having sex would also be tainted and also against God's word. It really does not matter what you, or doctors, or marriage counselors, or even pastors think in comparison to what God thinks. It is always God who trumps man. And God has made it clear He thinks homosexual sex is an abomination. He has made it clear it is one of the things that happens when people put created things (including man and his thoughts) before the truth of God.
Now, it may be possible that the sins of the parents might be visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation in this matter, in which case the individual himself would not be guilty of something warranting being attracted to the same gender. However, this does not change what God has said concerning homosexual sex and desire being sin. This being the case, it is still incumbent upon the individual with such desires to not engage in such behavior, but repent, confess, and turn to God through faith in Christ. Then they would have the responsibility of taking those thoughts captive for Christ and still not engaging in homosexual behavior, but again confessing them and seeking to live the holy and obedient life He has called us to.
abusive material is against the policies of this message board, so if Prophet is typing abusive comments, they should be deleted. Its not just for Prophet though, I agree with WB that there has been far too much abuse and criticism aimed at the person writing the response rather than the actual subject of the article. Let's stick to that, shall we?
what is this, somebody flagged prophet again for the abusive material she wrote? please do not flag prophet, it is annoying. Let us read what prophet has to say
Homosexuality is a sin. God created sex and marriage for a man and a woman as spoken of in Genesis. Jesus himself even quoted the Scripture that says that marriage is between a man and a woman. Any other romantic love is an abomination to God. And those who willingly remain in that sin will share the same judgement as murderers and liars.
God created sex and marriage for one man and one woman as stated in Genesis. And Jesus reaffirmed this as well, by quoting that same scripture.
"Unfortunately, people have been misled into thinking that this love extends to the flesh. They argue that homosexuality is approved by God if it is in a "loving relationship". But this is not what His word teaches. This is not what it says. If one cites this as approved of by God, then one is no better than the cursed priests written of in Malachi."
consider more annotation. you make references about this or that being clear. please give the annotation and explain how the words of those verses make your point.
i find it difficult to understand how you put such limits on a one flesh relationship.................doesn't scripture direct it.
do not marriage counselors either clergy or laity when counseling a married couple ascertain the frenquency and satisfaction of the sexual intimacy of the couple in the same way a doctor takes a blood pressure and white cell count reading to ascertain the health of the body of the patient?
folks, I read frustration coming through our posts. I am as guilty as others. I should have said something earlier. Is it possible to correct others without name calling or trying to shut them down?
Prophet:
All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righeousness.
Hebrews 12:11
You and I beloved will one day worship Him side-by-side. See you there!!
Homosexuality is a sin. God created romantic love and marriage for a man and a woman. Period. Jesus did talk about homosexuality. In Leviticus and in Romans and Corinthians. You see, Jesus is God, and what ever God said...Jesus said. It's really not that hard to understand. And those who willingly remain in that sinful lifestyle will share the same fate as a murderer.
To Feetxxxl:
Beloved, it would appear that you really do know of God, but yet you do not know Him. You know His word, but you do not know Him who spoke it.
What did God tell the priests who allowed abominations to happen, even in God's name?
You will find the answer in Malachi 2:17 - "You have wearied the Lord with your words Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and He delights in them,", or, "Where is the God of Justice?".
The priests had forgotten one simple truth: God never changes. They tried to justify their positions before men by misinterpreting scripture based upon the person who was seeking wisdom. This is evidenced also in Malachi, 2:8 - "But as for you, you have turned aside from the way; you have caused many to stumble by the instruction; you have corrupted the covenant of Levi," says the lord of hosts.
Beloved, the Bible is evidence of God's character, His ways, His truths, and His love. God stated in this very same book that He never changes. He says that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I see no reason to doubt this.
If one says that something does not go against what God has written, and yet it is clearly written, then this one is representative of a false witness and a false spirit. This one has clearly been misguided and deceived. For God's word will never fade and never wither. It will always stand, and those who stand upon this will never worry about collapse.
I think that the biggest problem is the word love. Many get this confused with the flesh all the time, it is unfortunate. Yes, Jesus said we are to love one another as He has loved us, but this was not of the flesh, this was of the spirit. With one exception, this can never be with or about the flesh. The only exception where this is referring to the flesh, and that is when one give his life for another, for there is no greater love than this.
Unfortunately, people have been misled into thinking that this love extends to the flesh. They argue that homosexuality is approved by God if it is in a "loving relationship". But this is not what His word teaches. This is not what it says. If one cites this as approved of by God, then one is no better than the cursed priests written of in Malachi.
Beloved, open your eyes to what it is really saying, not just what you want it to say. For sometimes it is bittersweet, but it is truth. Sometimes it doesn't say what we want it to say, but it is truth. Sometimes the truth is not what we want, sometimes we don't want to hear it. But that doesn't negate it as truth. It is still truth whether we acknowledge it or not.
(You shut me down completely, despite how close science is to proving that, just because YOU cannot reconcile my statement with your beliefs.)
Science has proved nothing to support your claim; the real contradiction is claiming to have a strong faith in God and at the same time you deny his Word. Why do you ignore it? We cannot pick and choose which verses to keep and which verses to toss out. We are going to either live in obedience to his Word or we are not; apparently you have chosen the latter. Your repeated statement; (you cannot reconcile my statement with your beliefs) is directed back at you. Your lifestyle cannot be reconciled with the explicit teachings of scripture. Interpret those passages that were posted earlier if we are getting it so wrong?
feet, you simply have no understanding of scripture. Everything must be tested, using scripture. God has made it clear that certain people can not be together, anything that contradicts scripture is not of God. Love between two people who fit into categories of people whom God has forbidden to get together, such as a man and his father's wife, or a man and a man, is not love God said can be pursued. It is a counterfeit. To pursue it is to go against what God has said, and therefore is sin.
Wow Daniel, that's a really precious rhyme! My partner and I might go as Adam and Steve for Halloween. Tell me, if scientists discover a prenatal factor, be it genetics or hormones, that determine sexual orientation so we know there is no choice in the matter, will you still say God did not make me gay? You shut me down completely, despite how close science is to proving that, just because YOU cannot reconcile my statement with your beliefs.
Prophet, I explained what I meant by that twice, and believer and WB, whom I was talking to, didn't seem to have any trouble understanding it.
however belief is one thing, truth is another.
truth is found thru testing. those who refuse to test their beliefs, that is what they remain.....................beliefs.
"TEST EVERYTHING , KEEP THE GOOD "
there are three tests for beliefs:
(1) they are tested thru the reasoning of the scriptures to see if the spirit of their essence is in aliignment with the spirit of christ.................... pointed to by scripture.
"As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,"
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"
(2) they are tested thru fellowship witness to show they are of the same spirit as the fellowship that is of the spirit of christ.
"if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another."
(3) they are tested thru objective reason to see if their essence is the same as that which god made.
"20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. "
there are some people who pride themselves in taking their untested beliefs to the grave. but there is nothing in scripture that supports that, being in any way of christ.
" God's Word in both the Old and New Testament alike clearly states that God's plan for marriage is one man to one woman. Nowhere does Scripture condone anything else to include same-sex marriage or polygamy. And in fact Jacob, David, and Solomon are three prime examples of why polygamy does not work and why God does not condone it. "
so that is your belief. you are entitled to it. the fact that you cannot explain it thru the words of scripture or any objective reason is really not important . a man is entitled to belief regardless of the source without recrimination. and it is for me, to honor that belief like i would honor any other belief of any other religion.
you credit your belief thru your understanding of the law. so in essence you are LED BY THE LAW. this means your focus on the physicality of how relations are expressed. homosexuals could even be more loving , more devoted , or more faithful than heterosexuals and that would be meaningless. your belief is that god has created a regulation that homosexual sexual intercourse is a sin and it is not necessarily for believers to know what that sin is, only that it is a sin.
so in essence rational discussion about the subject is not possible, because like a set of fixed dice, what ever the point of the discussion, the response will always come up in accordance with the belief. this is not unusual, but would be descriptive of anyone who was led by their particular interpretation of the laws of their religion.
in contrast being led by the spirit offers a different approach to living one's walk of faith.
in this approach one is concerned not with physicality but with the spirit that embodies the physicality. in regards to homosexual relations, the concern is about the spirit that embodies homosexual bonded relations and the sexual intimacies that are expressed in those relatons. because the spirit of those relations and those intimacies are the same as those of heterosexuals engaged in marital bonding and marital intimacies.
consequently, there can only be one conclusion that homosexual bonded relations and homosexual marriages are also of christ.
BEING LED BY THE SPIRIT, WITNESS OF THE SPIRIT INFLUENCES MY INTERPRETATION OF THE LAW, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
all written law requires interpretation.
"I flagged you for abusive posts. I am sick of you attacking ME rather than what I say."
"I flagged you for abusive posts. I am sick of you attacking ME rather than what I say."
I like to cook. (I REALLY like to cook.) Still, I really don't tend to create stuff I think is disgusting. God calls homosexuality disgusting. That's the word He used in the Bible. Therefore, for you to say He made you gay is to say He created you in a manner which disgusts Him!
There is no evidence that God creates things that disgust Him. There is no evidence in the Bible for that position whatsoever. He created and then said it was "good". He never created and said it was "disgusting". If fact, the Biblical pattern is that He created and we messed it up. We take His design and try to change it to what we want. Just like 5 year olds do with rules of the game.
It is completely out of character, against all evidence of Scripture and is just plain not Biblically logical to say God created you Gay. God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.
I didnt say I was done posting here, as I have already explained, I said I was done having the argument with WB and Believer. You put words in my mouth (which is funny, since you say I always do that to you.) God did create me gay. You have no proof, whatsoever, that he didn't.
Mike,
You've already lied once when you said you were done posting here....
God doesn't make people gay. The fall of man has brought this sin (as well as many others) into the world. And those who blame God for this oppression need to realize that they put themselves under judgement. I pray that they repent. Homosexual "christians" claim to follow God, but they deny His power to deliver them from this sin. Rather, they wallow in it, dancing and giving thanks to their god for making them this way. The god of this world has blinded their eyes from seeing tha the path they walk leads to destruction.
"...the Lord God, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man" (Genesis 2:22). God is light (1 John 1:5).
Homosexual relationships are not a creation of God is light. Homosexual relationships are a creation of darkness. Will you humble yourself and receive instruction today?
"He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding" (Pr 15:32).
Well, Mike. I like the way you think. If you can't win an argument...just delete them.
I flagged you for abusive posts. I am sick of you attacking ME rather than what I say. Its garbage that you've only flagged 2 of my posts, I thought a good Christian like yourself wouldn't lie. If you choose to continue posting the attack which I have now flagged several times, I will ignore it and move on: the ball is in your court at to the wisest move to make.
Mike,
Are your personal attacks any less severe? No. I don't go flagging them just because I don't like them. I've only flagged you once or twice...and that was for using inappropriate language.
wbmoore,
I've used both of those, but I prefer Biblegateway.
Mike,
Those passages explicitly highlight the obvious; God does not condone that lifestyle. How would you interpret those passages?
Prophet, I am sick of your personal attacks. If you want a discussion, stick to the issues please.
Prophet,
Go to http://www.biblegateway.com or http://www.biblestudytools.net for scripture you can cut-n-paste. I prefer the former for pasting here and looking up keyword searches (though you can also do that in a limited way with the latter) and the latter for word searches.
Using http://www.biblestudytools.net , you can look at the KJV or NASB with Strong's numbers. T his will bring up the text with the words underlined. Then click on the links of the word and it will bring up the concordance. Then click on the book name under verse count, and it will bring up the actual verses in that book, with the word high-lighted.
Mike...I thought you were done.
Well, you did. You put words into believer's mouth. You've done that a few times with me.
...I put words in people's mouths? Right, OK! This is why I said we're not going to agree. God bless you on your journey, I'll keep praying God's will be done!
Mike,
You have yet to prove that homosexuality is approved of God. We have proved time and time again that it is not. As I've pointed out earlier...you have a form of godliness, but you do not accept the power therein. You want a god that fits your mold. You have made him in your own image....
wbmoore,
You said "There was no implication in what Prophet wrote, its just another attempt to deflect truth on your part. He was pointing out the fallacy of your thinking."
He does that a lot. He reads half a post, then makes up the rest. Puts words into people's mouths, and when he really gets backed into a corner he brings out the "scare tactic" comment. Which, in itself is a scare tactic....
And he insults a lot.
Its clear we're not going to agree on this issue, and I'm tired of the same arguments shoved in my face when they held no water to begin with. I'm done.
mike2685, Christ said if we love Him we'll keep His commands, one of those commands is that marriage is between one man and one woman for life. Another is that sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one woman united in marriage. That's what He says and if we love Him we'll desire to and in practice keep His commands and when we fail to we'll confess and repent of that sin or sinful lifestyle. What more does He need to say on the wrongness of the sexual practices of homosexuality.
mike, I'm not sensationalizing anyhting. There have beeen cases here in the US where Christians have been arrested for simply praying, others for saying ina gentle manner what the Bible says about the sin of homosexual sex. The same goes for Canada and places in Europe. The persecution against Christians is beginning.
I'm not saying its a bad thing. I think the church will be strengthened as people leave her in droves to avoid being persecuted. It just wont be pleasant for the true believers.
Online, you are ignoring the truth simply because you can't understand how it relates to your Bible. Where is the intelligence in that? Igh, again, you use fear tactics with no proof of that happening. WB, its not illegal to speak out about Christianity, you are sensationalizing the case in which a minister in Canada said something and someone claimed they killed themselves because of it. That was an isolated incident and yet you act as if the world revolves around it.
Believer, you have a very weak argument. Jesus is God, God spoke already, so why would he reiterate? In that case, why would Jesus say anything? He came to clarify, and he clarified that we are not bound to the old laws, but we are to love with all our hearts and minds as we love Jesus, our neighbors, and ourselves. To say Jesus would not say something because God already said it makes no sense.
(God created me gay . . . )
That is untrue, as sinners we all have a predisposition to sin but to say the God made you that way is simply a fallacy. You implication does not make sense, would God who repeatedly condemns such behavior turn around and them make someone that way? I think not.
Review the following passages:
Leviticus 18:22, Deuteronomy 23:17, 1 Kings 14:24, Romans 1:24-28, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1 Timothy 1:9-10, and Jude 7.
Amen igh! We see this happening today in the world (including the USA) with people not being able to declare the word of God in relation to homosexual sin. It will only get worse.
Mike2685 said:
"God created me gay, and I believe its so I can understand what minority status and oppression feel like. "
What i want to impress on you is that the generation that comes after you, when they get all they want, will show the world what they are really like. Right now the gay community is on better behaviour to achieve what they want. The generation that follows will feel free and be of a slightly different mind set. Free to persecute openly Christians and anyone else who opposes them, they will feel the power they have and use it. They will not be peaceful citizens because the darkness that is in them will compell them to silence all who oppose them by any means necessary. Loss of job, home, court cases and jail. Even to putting us to death. You will see this and may be appalled, because you still receive wonderful benefits from God, you still have a 'flavor' of what God's liberty is like, but when that is erased from society, those who grow up in the soon to be repressive regieme of the USA will be hedonistic, without conscience, only getting what they want will permeate there entire being. If you look closely you can see it now.
God haters like sodom and gomorrah and the cities of that valley.
2Peter 2:9 "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;"
All of 2Peter chapter 2 is a good read on this.
2Timothy 3:1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
Again read all of 2 Timothy chapter 3.
There is alot more, in the last days people will not Love any more. And Unrighteousness will permeate the world.
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
good morning. I see someone is flagging again.
mike2685, as for your reference to the apostles, the Bible clearly states that women should not be put in positions of authority in the local church that would automatically give them spiritual headship over men. That's why He chose 12 men as His apostles.
mike2685, God said it that settles it so why would Jesus need to make a comment about the fact the sexual practices of homosexuality are an abomination before God, apparently no one in His time on the earth was questioning that fact. There are many sins that He did not address while on the earth since everyone already knew they were a sin.
By the way have you ever heard of reverse sarcasm, gotcha!!
Jesus is God. He DID speak to homosexual sex and desire - He called them sin. It is sexual sin and He spoke against it.
There was no implication in what Prophet wrote, its just another attempt to deflect truth on your part. He was pointing out the fallacy of your thinking.
Prophet, first and foremost, I resent that you implied someone born with Down's Syndrome is junk, because working with children with special needs, they are marvelous children and bring their parents and families tremendous joy, just as I do. Yes, God creates people gay, and he creates people with down's syndrome, and he has a purpose for us both. Jesus healed the man to show his power, not because the man was sinning by living his life the way he was created. God created me gay, and I believe its so I can understand what minority status and oppression feel like. Again, Jesus was talking to a crowd of people about what they would understand, and they certainly wouldn't have fathomed gay people in a committed relationship (just like he chose 12 male apostles because women did not have the status then to be in leadership positions. Should we not allow women to be religious leaders today just because Jesus didn't have any, or should we look at the times and the people?)
God made you gay. And God made the person with Down's Syndrome? God creates junk?
In a way you're right though. Jesus and His disciples were walking past a man who was born blind. The disciples asked whether the man was born that way because of his sin, or his father's sin. Jesus said that He was born that way so that the glory of God would be displayed. Then He healed him.
Maybe God did create homosexuals that way, so that His glory would be displayed in their deliverance. But, alas, homosexuals do not desire to change. They have a form of Godliness, but deny His power. It's sad really that they don't live Christianity to it's fullest, instead they remain in bondage (willingly) to sin.
Jesus never talks about coveting nor lying....two of the ten commandments. So then it must be okay to do both?
Jesus himself said that marriage was between a man and a woman. If he thought that homosexual marriages were okay, he would have said between two people (which he didn't). Because heterosexual marriage was the way God intended it to be.
Believer, if you think I was actually kissing your butt there, you need to learn sarcasm when you see it. Prophet, the argument is that the Bible is interpreted, and while you take everything in there literally (or at least what applies to you) many do not, and look at the Bible in a historical context. You can argue all you want that "well God said this, then did this, so he must mean this" but you do not know that, and looking at the context in which the Bible was written helps.
Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality. If God called it an abomination, don't you think he would have said something? What Jesus did talk about was love, in its most perfect form, which is never realized through sitting at home beating yourself up for your entire life because God made you gay (which he did, and science will agree.)
Marriage and sex was created by God for one man and one woman. So what's the argument? Any argument is an argument against God, so take it up with Him. He's the one who designed it that way...
Wbmoore,
Amen.
Just because God allowed more than one wife does not mean it was what God ordained as how things should be.
St. John's on a man marrying more than one wife. It's true in the old testament there was that. King Solomon had 100's and concubines.
In this age we find that one wife is Biblical.
Adam was given one wife, Eve. Not Eve and lisa and doris and etc... It is the way it was to be from the beginning.
Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
mike, God wants mercy not judgement. That's why we don't stone gays, adulterers, But it is not right, no where does God condone Them.
(because there couldn't possibly be other interpretations aside from yours.)
Christians throughout history have always had a sound biblical understanding and interpretation of this issue; that is until the late 1800’s / early 1900’s. About this same time period, we began to witness the emergence of liberal theology; how ironic?
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them..." (Gen 1:27, 28).
Biblically, we find no such blessing being given to homosexual unions. Such relationships are an abomination, unclean, and unseemly. Take heed:
"He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding" (Pr 15:32).
"Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish" (Pr 12:1).
mike2685, I am glad you're finally seeing the truth, but I can't take credit for it since it is simply God's wisdom as spelled out in His Word.
sj, God's Word in both the Old and New Testament alike clearly states that God's plan for marriage is one man to one woman. Nowhere does Scripture condone anything else to include same-sex marriage or polygamy. And in fact Jacob, David, and Solomon are three prime examples of why polygamy does not work and why God does not condone it.
Let us be clear that the Biblical view of marriage is between one man and as many women as he can afford. Polygamy, or more accurately, polygyny is clear Scriptural warrant, though culture has changed that norm since, has it not?
That's a very good question Believer, and I understand your logic perfectly. Anything to make you look good because there couldn't possibly be other interpretations aside from yours. You have the truth. I should never have questioned your caliber.
mike2685, homosexuality did exist in Christ's day while He was on the earth and if the Jews were wrong to punish people who were caught committing the sexual practices of homosexuality why didn't Christ speak to that issue?
mike2685, Christ did not speak to the issues of condoms since rubber which is used for condoms would not be even invented until close to 2000 years later. But He did speak to marriage and the fact that it was between one man and one woman and the Scriptures clearly speaks to sexual intimacy being reserved to one man and one woman united together in marriage and that any sexual intimacy outside of the parameters of one man and one woman who are united together in marriage is sin. But, if you are going to use my logic please understand it first and then follow it through completely.
You can interpret "homosexual sex is against the word of God" anyway you would like to, it only means one thing. God will show you who is right when Judgement comes.
Nope, not period, there is plenty of interpretation in your statement, and you refuse to have the condom conversation because it might conflict with your previous statements.
Its a red herring argument I will not get into. Homosexual sex is against the word of God. Period.
So because Jesus came we don't need to stone gays anymore? Also, I would be interested to hear your view on condom usage for married couples.
God does not change. The Law and the prophets have been fulfilled in the work of Christ. This does not change what He said was right or wrong, simply that the payment has been paid, for those who accept it.
I feel the same for you that you cannot see your hypocrisy.
I feel sorry for you mike. I makes me sad to see you working so hard to justify yourself.
God obviously did change if he once instructed gays to be stoned, then that law is no more. Your interpretations of the Bible fold on themselves quite constantly. Believer said that Christ did not speak against condoms anywhere in the Bible, and so they must be OK. Christ did NOT speak about homosexuality (nice stretch though) nor did he speak to gay marriage, so it must be OK! I'm simply using Believer's logic.
God said man is to marry woman. In fact, God said at least one of the reasons for sex between a husband and wife is to avoid sexual immorality.
1 Cor 7:2-3
2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.
It does not say a man should marry a man or a woman should marry a woman, but that each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
Christ spoke against all sexual immorality, and this included bestiality and homosexual sex (Matthew 15:18-20; Mark 7:20-23). If you actually read Romans 1, there is no reference to pagan rituals, merely of people suppressing the truth of God and putting created things in the place of God (not retaining the knowledge of God), and the sins they have been given over to - which includes homosexual desire and sex (as well as a ton of other sins). This is what people do when they decide they know more than God does, and these same people get given over to their sinful desires.
"Jesus talked about men and women marrying because the culture of the times would be to stone anyone who was in a gay relationship. "
The culture to stone people in a gay relationship was created when God said to kill people who had sex with the same gender (Lev 20:13).
"the culture has changed"
But God has not, nor has His word changed. homosexual sex and desire are sins. Jesus spoke out against sexual immorality, and that includes homosexual sex (Matthew 15:18-20; Mark 7:20-23; Romans 1).
God defined love differently than the worlds does. God says if you love Him, you will obey Him (John 14:23-24; 2 John 1:5-6).
"Nothing in that is selfish, nothing in that is sinful."
You are wrong. A man being with a man is according to God a sin. Plain and simple. It is selfish, which is sinful. Love between a man and a man that includes sexual attraction is a perversion of what God created - just as the love of a man for his step-mother if it includes sexual attraction is a perversion of love.
believer, Jesus talked about men and women marrying because the culture of the times would be to stone anyone who was in a gay relationship. Today, the culture has changed, and so mainstream society knows about gay relationships. I am sure that Jesus would still speak out against the gay club scene, as well as the straight club scene, but the bond of love between 2 people is a beautiful thing, and in a gay relationship it can be expressed just as purely as in a straight relationship. Sexual intimacy does bring partners together when you are in love, and gay parents are wonderful parents to children who need to be out of the foster care system. Nothing in that is selfish, nothing in that is sinful.
Anyone who believes homosexual sex is not a sin is not reading the BIble or is not led by the Holy Spirit or is trying to justify sin to make themselves feel better or to justify what they or someone else is wanting to do.
Scripture speaks out quite clearly that homosexual sex and desire is a sin. To say otherwise is to call God a liar. To say otherwise is to teach a different Gospel. We are to turn from sin and turn to God and leave sin behind.
Justtify it all you want, if you continue to live a life of sin, God will show you the truth, whether you seek it or not, when He judges.
sj, God's Word is clear that marriage is to be between one man and one woman, that is clearly spelled out in the Old and the New Testament and spoken by both God and Christ. It is clearly stated that sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed between one man and one woman united in the sight of God by marriage. Anything that falls outside of those parameters is called sin. Now why is it so hard for feet and others to see that the sexual practices of homosexuality fall outside of those parameters. The reality is it isn't and they are just trying to rationalize and justify that sinful lifestyle. And that is why I refer to feet's view of scripture as a perverted view of the scriptures.
TY believer, may your days be filled with Joy and Wisdom. I would like to say also that may the True brethren be ready to give their very lives soon for Christ and Love. What a privilage it is to die for Christ, very few are fortunate enough to be chosen for this. It is an Honor.
believer, the Word of God is not clear that homosexuality is a sin. You are not listening. Feetxxl is arguing that the Leviticus passages, which are the clearest condemnations, are not applicable, anymore than the other requirements of the Law, like eating lobster or wearing a mixed blend shirt. And the New Testament references are just not as clear as conservatives are suggesting. They seem instead to be condemning pagan temple prostitution and orgies.
feet, even though this is falling on deaf ears Paul clearly says that just because we are no longer under the penalty of the law that does not give us the freedom to willfully sin. If we love God we will obey His commands were words spoken by Christ Himself. The Word of God is clear that the sexual practices of homosexuality are a sin and to commit them is to disobey God and to disobey God is a willful violation of the 1st part of the Great Commandment, period!
"feet, I find it amazing how you cite the 2nd part of the Great Commandment and totally disregard the 1st part. For one to wholeheartedly love God one must wholeheartedly obey God's commands and laws as spelled out in His Word, one of which forbids the sexual practices of homosexuality and yet you rationalize that because these practices supposedly don't violate the 2nd part that makes it okay to practice them. If it vilolates the 1st or 2nd part then it is a sin and must be repented of. Plus there are other sins named in the Bible that can be committed without necessarily violating the 2nd part of the Great Commandment, but that does not give us permission to commit them"
first of all there is incredible disagreement as to there being any law against homosexuality. you particularly have never explained how the words of scripture say that homosexuality is a sin thru any kind of objective reason. whatever reason i have seen is purely subjective placing arbitrary meaning on anything that will support your position. and you refuse to validate your position thru anything akin to the spirit of fellowship
my position is that scripture has never said that homosexuality was a sin. lev ....not all prohibitions are of themselves are sins. romans1 is about shamebased lust not homosexuality being a sin. and 1cor and 1tim there has never been credible evidence to show that "malebed" means homosexual. the translators left no written explanation for the transposition of "defiling oneself with mankind" which makes it even more suspect. plus why would paul resurrect new laws after saying that believers died to the old ones.
under the new covenant, why would believers be led by that which we have died to. you have taken another old covenant relationship about god saying keep my commandments and attempted to graft it onto the new covenant. where does paul say be led by the law. surely if there was a law to be led by. it would have been the one about circumcision for which abraham was almost killed for not obeying.
continued
continued
if one loves god he loves god by acknowledging the son's authority of being over all things and being given all judgement. if one loves god he attempts to live a life led by the three commandments of love (commandments of to-dos not ones of do-nots that we have died to) why would be led by that, which thru following receive no righteousness and is limited and capable of being weakened and is without perfection. when we can be led by christ and the spirit of christ, that is perfection? is christ limited ? is christ without perfection? can christ be weakened?
there is none greater than the second. if it violates the first it violates the second. if it does not violate the second it does not violate the first. both are of the same spirit. if both are of the same spirit how can it not come against one, but come against the other? can the spirit come against itself?
i have asked this many many times .........................again where does paul say we are to be LED BY LAW.?
and what is your understanding of scripture's "the sons of god are led by the spirit of god?" are you attempting to say the spirit of god, the spirit of christ is the law?
igh, unfortunately what you say is all too true, be blessed as you continue to serve Him, believer
sj, and if I knew of people who were trying to use the Scriptures to oppose inter-racial marriages or the abolishing of slavery I would tell them the same thing.
St. John's, I couldn't agree with you more!
sj, when someone presents a point of view that tries to convince people that what God calls sin is not or when someone takes passages of scripture out of context in order to support a view that is completely contrary to the Word of God that is a perverted view and use of the scriptures. And I have no problem calling it that.
Please stop arguing about 'rights'
Don't you know that soon if not now, the conscience of most will be gone, eliminated, erased.
I know some may not like me saying this, but same-sex marriages are just one of the symptoms of that time. And now is.
1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Many have turned aside concerning the Faith. Concerned with what they want, not what God wants. And what does God want? Only to give us Joy and Hope and Peace in his Son Jesus. The Hope of Eternal life, Forgiveness of sins, being his servants and brethren forever more.
Satan wants to turn us unto his perverted ways, damning us to Eternal Torment, which is a worthy punishment for those who reject Jesus as there Lord.
Why is it worthy punishment? Because many want evil and wickedness over Righteousness.
God must punish sin, satan knows that, he is destined soon to be punished along with his legions of Rebellious Angels.
Without a conscience we manipulate, lie, cheat, steal, deceive and kill to achieve that which we are possessed to get. That is all that will matter.
believer, the very question is whether feetxxl's view of Scripture is perverted or not, and simply being self-righteous about your view of Scripture doesn't make yours right, or another's wrong. The same claims of perverting Scriptures were made against those supporting the equality of women, or interracial marriage, or the abolition of slavery. If our history has taught us anything, it is we need to be careful about too quickly condemning one viewpoint over another. Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, but he a great deal to say about self-righteousness. Let us all exercise a little restraint, and perhaps even respect for those whose interpretation of the Scriptures may be different from ours.
feet, in your 1:59 post you listed some practices that you suggest we as Christians have been weaned off of, but you shared no scripture references that allowed for these practices in the first place. For instance there is no biblical support for holding all women accountable for Eve's sin or holding all Jews accountable for the death of Christ. Once again it appears you are grandstanding to try and get Christians to accept your perverted view of the scriptures. I'm not saying that weren't and even are some Christians who practiced these things, but I am saying they had no biblical basis to direct them to practice them.
daniel paul
is this a sincere attempt to communicate or merely a gesture of outrage..............please annotate.
feet, I find it amazing how you cite the 2nd part of the Great Commandment and totally disregard the 1st part. For one to wholeheartedly love God one must wholeheartedly obey God's commands and laws as spelled out in His Word, one of which forbids the sexual practices of homosexuality and yet you rationalize that because these practices supposedly don't violate the 2nd part that makes it okay to practice them. If it vilolates the 1st or 2nd part then it is a sin and must be repented of. Plus there are other sins named in the Bible that can be committed without necessarily violating the 2nd part of the Great Commandment, but that does not give us permission to commit them.
people can call temselves what ever they want, but that does not make them that.
As for sin and Christians,
2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time
Romans 5:20-6:18
20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin - 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey - whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
If we have accepted the work of Christ on the cross for our salvation, we have been set free from sin. We must leave our lives of sin and take on lives of righteousness.
"paul explains his relationship to the law.( if paul cannot be made acceptable by following the law, why then would he possibly chose to be led by it?)"
Is this the same Paul who talked about men's passions burning towards one another as a wrong thing in Romans? Surely not.... I think you are mistaking Philippians for the Book of 2nd Opinions.
Again, the word used for love is not the one used for the marriage relationship. As Mike used the term in another thread it is childish teaching. I have a 5 year old who does not, on occasion, understand that different words mean different things.
Paul wrote that when he became a man he put childish things behind him. When I became a Christian man I stopped justifying and imposing my beliefs on the Bible and started developing what I believed from the Bible.
having 2 lines is never about the physicality of the lines but instead about their purpose.
even though both lines are for the same purpose one is held higher than the other on the basis of theocratic legalisms not by any qualification of the spirit.
both sets of couples have the same mutual love, devotion, affection and respect and are bonded for the sake of a committed shared life together.
the different lines are because the 2 lines have diffentent combinations of gendered couples.
We are viewing the same issue through different lenses; civil and theological, this is obvious. So, there are two lines that read civil unions and marriages . . . good grief; what about the two lines which read men and women, boys and girls, veterans and non-veterans, etc. Do you want these references to be changed as well? What is wrong with the title civil union, which is what they are? I have no problem with everyone receiving equal health benefits, that is self evident but from a theological perspective, the origin of marriage, where did it come from? It was given to us by our creator and he instituted it for men and woman.
(And even if Prop 8 passes, it will be rescinded before long, as the entire country recoginizes these people's rights.)
You are probably right but they will be civil unions and nothing more.
anyone is entitled to hold any position WITHOUT recrimination.
where the challenge is, is when a person holding a position says he hold's it out of objective reason, when actually his position is based on subjective reason and belief. when he says he holds it out of reasoning of the scriptures when in truth, it is held thru theocratic legalisms. and when he say he holds it thru the light of a 1john1 fellowship witness, when in truth , it is held thru denial and rejection of the same.
its interesting that those who challenge the decision offer no challenge to the reasoning of the decision. do the they think that living under a system of laws, means a system of laws, determined by popular referendum of the majority rather than a legal reasoned system of rights.
in truth, if christendom had both feet firmly planted in the new covenant of christ, the church would be on the rallying side of homosexual marriage.
look at the degree that believers have had to be weaned off the old covenant.............................thru condemning and persecuting jews for killing their savior (in spite of romans 10 and 11), condemning women as being responsible for the fall of man, segregation from not only different denominations but different ethnics as well, because of the old testament seperate people concept, each group believing they had become the seperate chosen, to laws preventing work on sunday, to believing all other religions not christian were the work of satan, and should be dealt with an old testament posture of alienation, to the burning of witches and anyone considered herectical at the stake..........................etc
and still even today , the cry has not changed. it is "we havent applied the old covenant precepts in the last 2000 years, but today we know how todo it the right way.
this is the purpose of all those euphemisms of god's word, sight of god, word of god to attempt to camoflage, the continued persistant use of old covenant precepts.
this in spite of hebrews 8 paul declaring the old covenant wrong, and saying what is denoted as old will become obsolete and soon pass away.
The ones who "claim to be Christians" I call Christians, too, though they are not really interested in what you and I call them, wb.
And, Online4, here's an example of gays not being able to do something: At city hall there are two lines. One sign reads "Civil unions," and one reads "Marriages." This is as separate but equal as segregated schools were (and just as unconstitutional).
And even if Prop 8 passes, it will be rescinded before long, as the entire country recoginizes these people's rights.
That may be according to polls but I am referring to Californians who approved proposition 22 but then had it struck down by liberal judges. People always revert back to their personal beliefs when dealing with issues such as these; this was evident when Californians came out and overwhelmingly supported prop 22 and they will do the same for prop 8.
I wonder what (type) of Christians reject the explicit Word of God. You speak of tyranny, where? Equating the gay movement with that of the civil rights movement is creative; where do we see gays not being able to eat in certain restaurants, not being able to vote, not being able to access public services, etc. Please save the drama. . .
I disagree that Christians are in the majority. I think people who claim to be Christians are in the majority, and maybe even people who go to church once or twice a year might be in the majority. But the number of people who follow Christ are in the minority in this country.
It's true that Christians are in the majority. But not "your type" of Christian. Regardless, our constitution is designed to protect minorities from the "tyranny of the majority." Without that, my city would still have white and colored drinking fountains.
(A religious body (no matter how admirable its precepts) cannot force people who do not believe in that religion to follow its scripture.)
I agree, however, most people who do believe are planning to vote in accordance to their beliefs and Christians happen to be in the majority. Government may support gay marriage, this may be the outcome but these marriages will never be supported by God himself since he clearly speaks against it. The interesting thing here is witnessing homosexuals trying to defend their position from scripture . . .
They become irritated when Christians quote a bible passage which clearly denounces their lifestyle . . . while they speak of God, Faith, and Scripture without giving affirming explicit evidence from its pages.
I know I am wasting type to cut & paste anything from the "liberal" NY Times on this site, but the following quote from an article (#1) and the editorial at the link (#2) below seem quite clear.
#1
"Striking at the heart of discriminatory traditions in America, the [Conn.] court â۠in language that often rose above the legal landscape into realms of social justice for a new century â۠recalled that laws in the not-so-distant past barred interracial marriages, excluded women from occupations and official duties, and relegated blacks to separate but supposedly equal public facilities."
#2
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/11/opinion/11sat4.html?th&emc=th
My own father, born 1908, was horrified at the civil rights movement and the "full citizenship" attained by black people during his lifetime. By the time he died, in 2000 at 91, he agreed that the courts were correct to force desegregation on our state and country.
Feet,
I believe Jesus did say, "I have not come to destroy the law." Jesus did not put an end to the law, but rather showed us something more important than the law, which was a relationship with the Creator. The law still points us in the right direction, it still shows us our sin. However, we are not bound by the law if we are in Christ. Paul's very own words said that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) How do you explain that?
Both sides of this argument can make convincing arguments. The difference is that one group derives its point of view from religious, not universally held, texts; the other view derives from our constitution that applies to every citizen of our secular nation.
A religious body (no matter how admirable its precepts) cannot force people who do not believe in that religion to follow its scripture.
Homosexual relationships are unable to enter into the truth and spirit of Eph. 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it." Homosexual relationships can never have anyone within such a relationship be a true witness of such a Christ-like love.
Take heed, "He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding" (Pr 15:32).
IN REGARDS TO THE SPIRIT AND SCRIPTURE
Romans 8:14
because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God
Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the SPIRIT, and not in the old way of the LAW (written code.)
paul's teachings are about the leading of the spirit.....................
philipians 2: 1Christ encourages you, and his love comforts you. God's Spirit unites you, and you are concerned for others. 2Now make me completely happy! Live in harmony by showing love for each other. Be united in what you think, as if you were only one person. 3Don't be jealous or proud, but be humble and consider others more important than yourselves. 4Care about them as much as you care about yourselves 5and think the same way that Christ Jesus thought: [a] 6Christ was truly God.
paul explains his relationship to the law.( if paul cannot be made acceptable by following the law, why then would he possibly chose to be led by it?)
philipians3:4 Others may brag about themselves, but I have more reason to brag than anyone else. 5I was circumcised when I was eight days old, [b] and I am from the nation of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin. I am a true Hebrew. As a Pharisee, I strictly obeyed the Law of Moses. 6And I was so eager that I even made trouble for the church. I did everything the Law demands in order to please God. 7But Christ has shown me that what I once thought was valuable is worthless. 8Nothing is as wonderful as knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. I have given up everything else and count it all as garbage. All I want is Christ 9and to know that I belong to him. I could not make myself acceptable to God by obeying the Law of Moses. God accepted me simply because of my faith in Christ. 10All I want is to know Christ and the power that raised him to life. I want to suffer and die as he did, 11so that somehow I also may be raised to life.
PLEASE SHOW A TEACHING, WHERE PAUL, WHO WAS INSTRUCTED DIRECTLY BY CHRIST, SAYS THAT WE ARE TO BE LED BY OUR UNDERSTANDINGS AND INTERPRETATIONS OF THE LAW.(GOD'S WORD)
the issue about leading of the spirit versus leading by one's interpretation of the law is the difference between..................
.." i recognize this spirit in this situation and therefore my interpretation will be influenced by what i have witnessed"( "You will recognize them by their fruit")
as opposed to...............
"my interpretation of the law influences and controls what spirit i acknowledge that i have witnessed."
or
" i refuse to engage in any form of witness because it may threaten or undermine my theology, therefore i chose to stand solely on my interpretations of the law(god's word).
artm and others
and all this is in regards to the law.
in regards to the spirit, statements are made that without witness, the light of fellowship witness, "that which we have looked at, we have seen with our eyes and our hands have touched" and without any objective reason.
and you dismiss all the scriptures regarding spirit and the fruit of the spirit as if if they didnt exist.
artm
read isaiah again you are crediting yourself as having the same thoughts as god about a particular issue.
if you said "it is written" in regards to icor and itim you would still have explain how "malebed" means homosexual.
if you said it is written in regards to romans one you have to explain how the same sex relations in romans 1 condemn homosexuality, when incestial rape and murderous adultery in 1 and 2 samuel dont condemn heterosexuality. you would have explain how the shame based lust has any relationshipship to the mutual love, respect, affection and devotion of homosexual bonding.(the bible is abook that points to and is concerned with spirit) you would have to explain how homosexuals would have women and why the women of homosexuals indulged in the same sex relations as homosexuals did?
if you said it is written in regards to lev you would have explain how the prohibitions on same sex relations still stands when not all prohibitions of themselves are actually sins.
your explanations would require thoughts........... your thoughts. you credit your thoughts about this issue as being gods thoughts, when they are merely your own. you use them to validate a position that you believe god holds. but that is all you have subjective belief.
and thru your subjective belief you credit yourself not with having just your own position but in addition having god's position.
Buc, apparently you need to be an accountant to understand it. Abortion and gays have NOTHING to do with our economy falling apart, but I'd love to know how you came to that conclusion. Rather, I would say many republicans who controlled congress for too long are the reason our economy is falling apart, and most of them would probably be conservative Christians. I believe Sodom was about inhospitality and rape, which has nothing to do with a committed gay couple.
in fact under the new covenant, paul said we have died to the law. why then create new ones out of the old, to condemn others with and for us to die to also?
if i said one died to a life of having to use drugs, died to a life of pain, died to life of self recrimination it would be clear that the life one was resurrected to, would not a part of this.
christ thru paul calls us to a life of that which there is no law AGAINST.........................a life of .the fruit of the spirit ( "you will recognize them by their fruit").
why should i be obsessed with not stealing or committing adultery, murder or committing false witness when by loving my neighbor as myself i automatically refrain from that and fulfill so much more? in christ i sin by not doing those things that there is no law against.. so in christ my concern BECOMES ABOUT my doing, rather than in my not doing.
the fruit of homosexual bonding is of the same fruit as heterosexual bonding. how is it some believers feel so free to condemn one bonding while accepting another. and do it thru legalisms that are without love, without witness, or even without rational objective reason?
AND AS OF YET NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN HOW HOMOSEXUALITY COMES AGAINST LOVING ONES NEIGHBOR AS ONESELF............................................which is.a necessity, for it to come against christ, and to therefore be declared a sin.
feet, there you go again with the gospel perverted by feet. We do know the mind of God when it comes to certain issues and when it comes to the sexual practices of homosexuality God clearly says in His Word that those acts are an abomination and like all other sin they are a stench in His nostrils. Now I know you will do your best to twist and turn those passages in both the Old and New Testament that talk to this issue and you may even change some minds, but the reality is God has already made up His mind in this matter and He calls it for what it is, sin!
ey, having pastored in Montpelier, VT. for four years 95-99, I can truly empathize with your concern, while there my wife and I were told by several individuals they felt as if they were living out Frank Peretti's book, "This Present Darkness" as if the book had come to life, but at the same time I know there is a remnant of true believers there as well and my prayer is that God will raise them up as light and salt to a very dark area in our nation, be blessed as you continue to serve Him, believer
evangelicalyankee, I for one will pray, and I know many others will mas well, Christians have a unified goal, to accomplish Gods will and purpose on earth.
lets pray for each other in these last days. Jesus is coming soon. amen
Brothers and sisters... Will you pray for the Church here in New England? Most of our states have changed the definition of marriage... We now have pagan values in our schools too...
Please pray for us and pray that our missionary (New England has only 2.5% Bible believing Christians) efforts provide good fruit.
feetxx, Just a P.S. Your lack of understanding of Proverbs 3 tells me why you appear to approve of homosexuality,( if you do ).
Those who support such are always leaning to their own understanding, as they completly ignor the clear teaching of Scripture concerning homosexuality.
I am not offended by your statements made here, You, or those who practise homosexuality have done me no wrong.
So I hold to anger against them at all, But I must tell you the truth, It is God who is offended, It is God that has been wronged.
Please understand, The genuine Christian is the best friend the homosexual has, That is true because, Christians will pray and believe God for their Salvation.
I know about Forgivness, and the Grace of God, Because as the song says, " I was once a sinner,Saved by Grace.
Hey feetxx, I am not here to give you " My " word, It is Gods Word that matters. For the Christian, God's Word is the Standard of living given by God.
Homosexuality is not sin because " my ' word says so, It is sin because Gods Word says so.
One thing is true, " My word " standing alone has no power, But when " my word " is in line with " Gods word " it takes on all of the power and authority of God.
So, what more can I say, As you said, " Truth stands on it's own .
"Let us not deceive ourselves by justifying any sin" Then again Christians in America have been justifying selective sins since they land on these shores. Shouldn't be a surprise, as many where doing so in the old world as well. Sigh...
LOL a marriage protect amendment isn't going to save one marraige.The Constitution is there to affirm rights, not take the. A marraige admendment would be based on one set of religious beliefs, a hallmark of a theocracy, if the founders thought a theocracy was best they would have created one, they didn't
Time for the nation to pass the Marriage Protection Amendment!
Mike-I believe that homosexuals are referred to as Sodomites in the bible. When God destroyed Sodom and Gamorah, the homosexuals were actually trying to have relations with the Angels.And as far as the Eucharist is concerned, there have been documented cases of the Host actually bleeding. Gays know in their heart that they are commiting a Mortal sin every time that they engage in illicit sex. One doesn't have to be a Thealogian to understand that the reason that our economy is falling apart is because of homosexuality, wars, abortions, and so on. I am just so thankful that I am following the one true God, and even if my family falls on hard times, we will still be fine.
Mike,
I guess we will have to agree to disagree; take care . . .
"These states can pass all the laws they want, It does not change the Word of God, I am praying that the homosexual community will come to the knowledge of truth, that homosexuality is sin in the sight of God".
These states can pass all the laws they want, It does not change MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE LAW (Word of God), I am praying that the homosexual community will come to the knowledge of WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE truth, that homosexuality is sin in the sight of God.
dont you realize using euphemisms are an indication of weakness. in other words your saying my words have no power standing alone, but require additional labels................word of god..................sight of god
my understanding of the truth is, that it stands on its own. why do your words need so much additional support?
also by putting so much emphasis on your own understanding arent you negating
Proverbs 3:4-6
4 Then you will win favor and a good name
in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own UNDERSTANDING,
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.
wouldn't the mere act of saying that" my understanding of the law is god's as well", be over estimating your own understanding, and at the same time be crediting yourself with knowing the mind of god?
isaiah 55:8
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
"my thoughts are not your thoughts".....in other words,all the thoughts we have ever had in our lives, they have not been god's thoughts..................he's saying this to isaiah.
do you credit yourself with being more knowledgable than isaiah?
Online, thank goodness I am none of those things! Guess I'm safe
Mike,
The word homosexuality probably appears in newer translations, however, these new translations do not appeal to me.
(He was writing in response to those (historically) rather than to gay couples, which are not mentioned anywhere directly in the BIble.)
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (1Corinthians 6:9).
Listen, I am not condemning anyone but as you described yourself as (having a deep faith); one should sincerely consider the possibility of being wrong. Let us not deceive ourselves by justifying any sin.
Online, I did not say you jumped on me, Pinocio did. When the Bible was written, there was no such word as homosexuality (interesting that it appears there now!) When Paul was coming through Greece writing, he witnessed many ritualistic, Pagan orgies which Christians were engaging in. He was writing in response to those (historically) rather than to gay couples, which are not mentioned anywhere directly in the BIble. The bible never speaks of homosexuality in terms of a committed relationship between 2 people of the same sex, so your interpretation differs greatly from mine (and modern science.)
I have not jumped on you . . . we are merely having a discussion here. So tell me how it should be interpreted? Give a specific text and then give your interpretation of it.
Pinochos, Online4Him said the part about opinion...thanks for jumping on me though!
No, you'll give what you interpreted as fact, so you can save it. I have a deep faith, and have read the Bible, and know there are MANY interpretations of it. To assume you know what is fact is absurd. For instance, Catholics believe Jesus commissioned the Eucharist, while many Evangelicals believe otherwise. Who can say they are right? No one, until the last day.
Mike2685-what does God being all-knowing have to do with him blessing Brittney Spears 24hour marriage?? i don't follow what you're saying? i don't think God blesses any marriage that is apart from a God fearing Biblical marriage that he established in Gen and continued to talk about throughout the Word. I still don't understand how you can read Romans and other parts and come to your conclusion of what God says. But i think it's the same with many other heterosexual marriages as well who say God approves of something they're doing in their marriage that is clearly unbiblical.
Oh man Mike2685! You said: "My friend, our own personal opinons is not what matters here; what has God said in his Word regarding this issue?"
Dude, you're the only one posting here who's giving their personal opinions . . . again do you want book, chapter and verse?
I'll give the facts . . . straight from God Himself! No opinions . . . just the facts!
Yo Mike2685! You said: "Are we assuming we know what he does and does not bless now?"
Dude! There absolutely no assumption here . . . only sheer certainty as to what God blesses and doesn't. You want me to give you book, chapter and verse . . . or do you want to remain "uninformed" and go totally against the will of God?
It's your call, man . . . and it's a no-brainer! Get it right for once, eh!
Mike2685,
My friend, our own personal opinons is not what matters here; what has God said in his Word regarding this issue?
You don't think God blesses gay marriages, but you interpret the Bible that way. I don't think there is anything selfish about committing your life to someone whom you love and brings out the best in you. If you don't think God blesses gay marriages, then I wonder if you think he blesses marriages like Britney Spear's 24 hour marriage. Since he's all knowing, would he not bless that? Are we assuming we know what he does and does not bless now?
Hallelujah means praise ye the Lord . . . God is not praised when we choose to deliberately disobey him.
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent (Revelation 3:19).
Another good reason to avoid Conn like the plague.
Yo Mike2685! Hey man! You're wrong! God isn't blessing you and your partner at all . . . man is. And that don't count for nothing, dude! God may love you, but He does not, in any form or fashion, condone your behavior. And neither do Christians.
Connecticut, another state gone down the toilet. Who's next?
this is just more of man glorifying selfishness and sin. I firmly believe we are closer to the day Christ returns, and this just proves prophecy right. This decision is another example of man calling right what God has called evil. I doubt any of us are surprised, just saddened. But we have more of this to look forward to. But then, we have the greatest event in human history since creation and the first coming of Christ: The Return of Christ! I can not wait!
It just seems Obama is "talking the stuff" regular people would want to hear progressive flexible liberal open minded... more and more states seem to be acting on the premise Obama will probably will be the next president and get support to the fed level, in this case maybe not a good thing. Bush was a hands off president as far as the fed government being supportive in social moral issues. At least Bush appointed Conservative Judges in - only ONE good thing as far being pro active regarding moral social concerns since he was too busy creating the more literal translation of "The End Times" scenerio IRAQ etc.. "Evil doers" rid society of them.. what a joke! haha
Yah! another state declares abominations a good thing! Man is always right.
Glory to Man!
ifeelfine72: You're right it didn't change it never condoned it in the first place. If you do a little reading for a change you'll understand that slavery was either forced as a result of war or was chosen to pay off debt almost like a job.
Mike2685: Just read revelations regarding the last days & ask the Lord to open your eyes before it's too late.
ifeelfine, you're right and if I ever live in a place where slavery is legal I will know what the Word of God says so I can teach Christians who own slaves how to treat them and teach Christian slaves how they should respond to their masters. But the reality is you can't find a passage of Scripture that shows that God specifically commanded anyone that they are to own slaves and so as usual your point in this matter is pointless.
artm: The Word of God didn't change regarding slavery either . . . so, what happened?
These states can pass all the laws they want, It does not change the Word of God, I am praying that the homosexual community will come to the knowledge of truth, that homosexuality is sin in the sight of God.
One day all of mankind will stand before a Holy God.God loves all men, but he cannot abide in sin.
Give me all the thumbs down you want! I am so thrilled with the court of CT. I am originally from there, so perhaps my partner and I can move up there and get the legal recognition we've worked so hard for. God is blessing these unions because they are about LOVE, not the sex crazed hypocricy you claim.
Amen hallelujia!