Republican vice presidential nominee Gov. Sarah Palin went on the attack Saturday at a Pennsylvania rally against Democratic presidential nominee Sen. Barack Obama for what she calls his radical views on abortion rights.
-
(Photo: AP/Keith Srakocic)Reublican vice presidential candidate Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin speaks during a campaign stop in Johnstown, Pa., Saturday, Oct. 11, 2008.
"In times like these with wars and financial crisis, I know that it may be easy to forget even as deep and abiding a concern as the right to life, and it seems that our opponent kind of hopes you will forget that," Palin told a crowd in Johnstown, according to CNN. "He hopes that you won't notice how radical, absolutely radical his idea is on this, and his record is, until it's too late."
Pro-life activists and social conservatives have long hammered Obama on his extreme pro-choice views.
Obama opposes the Supreme Court ruling to uphold the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, and voted against legislative efforts in the Illinois Senate for three consecutive years (2001-2003) to give legal protections to a baby born alive during an attempted abortion procedure.
The 2003 born-alive protection measure was virtually identical to a bill unanimously passed in the U.S. Senate and signed into law by President Bush in 2002.
"In short, Sen. Obama is a politician who has long since left behind even the middle ground on the issue of life. He's fighting with those who won't protect a child born alive,” Palin said, according to The Associated Press.
Palin contrasted herself and running mate Sen. John McCain’s abortion stance with Obama.
Palin believes Roe. V. Wade should be overturned and abortion laws left for state governments to decide and she opposes abortion in all cases, including rape and incest, with the exception of when a mother’s life is in danger.
McCain has had a 100 percent pro-life record during his 26 years in the U.S. Congress. He voted in support of the Prohibit Partial Birth Abortion bill in 2003, and supports the Supreme Court ruling to uphold the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. He opposes abortion except in cases of rape, incest and to protect the life of the mother.
"A vote for Barack Obama is a vote for activist courts that will continue to smother the open and democratic debate that we deserve and that we need on this issue of life - that's OK, that debate - at both the state and federal level," she said.
On Saturday, Sen. Obama was also in Pennsylvania campaigning in Philadelphia. At one point during the rally, he said he “appreciated” McCain’s recent efforts to “tone down the rhetoric” on the campaign trail.
Recently, the two presidential candidates were highly criticized by pundits and voters for spending too much time on the attack and not enough time explaining their policies and positions during a critical time in the nation’s history.
Obama currently leads McCain by a seven point margin (50 percent v. 43 percent), according to the latest Gallup Poll Daily tracking report. The results show the gap has narrowed between the two candidates since last week when Obama was leading by double-digits.
McCain and Obama will face off on Wednesday for the third and final presidential debate at Hofstra University in New York.
RSS
blue, I didn't know that life was a game of truth or dare.
Huckabee was denounced here on Christian Post (by atheists and agnostics) when he mentioned the notion of amending the constitution to include protection of al human life.
Now that Obama wants to take away state rights to adopt alternative measures, where are they now????
"The most horific of circumstances"???
In the case of the life of a mother, abortion was already legal well before Roe v Wade.
How dare any stranger try to take office and force me, by law, to continue a pregnancy in the most horrific of circumstances. How dare a woman with no legal degree attempt to overrule a Supreme Court decision that has presided for over 30 years. Certainly, she is a washington outsider..
johnzon, she's from Alaska and they tend to be late night and several months of the year almost no nights people!
I have a question for Palin supporters. Why will she appear on SNL, but she wont go on news proprams such as Meet the Press?
If you missed Hannity and Combs the other night you missed a good performance by both candidates. There is some foundation that holds a dinner about 2-3 weeks before an election. It is an opportunity for the candidates to 'roast' themselves and each other. It has been a tradition for quite some time.
I had no idea McCain had such a sense of humor. The room was made up of mostly 60's people made good liberals and giving back. George W. Bush when it was his first turn said the room was made up of 'the haves...and the have mores'.
McCain said he knew their was hope for him to win the election because even in that room there was support to beat Barrack and he was glad Hillery was able to make it....
McCain on 'The View' had called Obama "that man". When Obama had his turn he announced that Barrack was actually swiheily (like I spelled that right) for "that man". He also said the person who picked out his middle name obviously never thought he'd run for President. Barrack Stephen Obama...just kind of rolls of the tounge doesn't it?
I have to admit...both made me laugh (in a good way).
If you map the promises and statements coming from Stephen (yep...that's Obama's middle name) you will find he cannot keep all of his promises because many are contrary.
For example, he said he would not raise taxes during a recession. He says we're in a recession. Yet, he says he's going to pay for his programs by increasing taxes on people making more than $250,000 (which I am not in danger of a tax increase by that guideline...). Is he saying he isn't going to fund the programs for as long as we have a recession? It could last for years. Is he saying he isn't going to do any of what he says as long as we are in a recession?
How's he going to pay for it? Borrow money from Iran? There comes a point where logic just shakes it's head and walks away from the Obama camp.
There's a great Republican yard sign on our street, in the dark blue with the crisp font above and below the horizontal line.
Above it reads: PALIN
_______
Below it reads: REALLY?
despicable...
http://www.koco.com/cnn-news/17724300/detail.html
There is nothing like an NRA gun-toting,death-penalty supporting, states'righter-loophole proponent of 'life' to advance the cause not only of the unborn, but of the living -be they God's innocent woodland creatures or, those who actually do possess souls and, not too few of them wrongly convicted, languishing on death row! The circle of life is just that, a circle: any break in its great chain of being is a lie and a fraud.
"
According to Stanley Kurtz of National Review Online, "ACORN succeeded in drawing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac into the very policies that led to the current disaster." ACORN put pressure on banks by threatening them with accusations of racism if they didn’t give loans to minorities, even if they were completely unqualified.
Kurtz goes on: "At both the local and national levels, then, ACORN served as the critical catalyst, levering pressure created by the Community Reinvestment Act and pull with Democratic politicians to force Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac into a pattern of high-risk loans. Up to now, conventional wisdom on the financial meltdown has relegated ACORN and the CRA to bit parts... In fact, however, ACORN is at the base of the whole mess…And Barack Obama cut his teeth as an organizer and politician backing up ACORN's economic madness every step of the way."
"
Sorry about the typos.
There is not enough space here to give an economic lesson to prove that Fannie Mae. The housing market exploded form the beggining of 2002to about the end of 2005. This was due to a enourmous amount of buyers taking advantage of the super low interest rates Alan Greenspan(Fed Chairman) caused by lowering the federal funds rate. CEO's and shareholders made out like bandits and to balme low income workers is horrible. They lost the one home they owned.
This explains it very well.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/53802.html
Believer, it wasn't soon after the Civil War, it was more like after the Civil Rights era of the 60s.
Slavery was in fact the Democratic Party line. And like it or not it was they who filibustered anti-lynching legislation right up in the mid 1900s.
"Look in the South Seed, notice how overwhelming the populace is black and yet they have not even a close representation there."
After the Civil War there was black representation until the Democrats fought to restore state rights to adopt their own laws, which ensued with them all being turned out of office.
Anyone can blame the government, but it is still quite obvious that the southern Democrats were pro-slavery and fought for their rights to maintain slavery at the consternation of the northern states which primarily consisted of Republicans. Be that as it may it was in fact radical Republicans who voiced opposition to slavery, it was they who in fact chose to push for Lincoln's candidacy. It is a fact that the BIG issues was slavery.
Granted Lincoln used a lot of political tact which has caused for some historical revisionism. If you look at it from his scope you can easily see why he said certain things and adopted certain measures. It worked - or it almost worked, if it wasn't for the southern Democrats who were reinstated by Andrew upon Lincoln's assassination.
"What I think has happened is the Democratic Party dangled a carrot to get the black vote."
You're loosing it Seed, blacks, and minorities in general as voting blocks, have generally been voting democratic for quite some time (at least some 50 years). Putting Obama in is not a paradox as already the minorities were already voting democratic, the only paradox is the inverse is that some white voters (blue collar working class) who might vote democratic might not simply for skin color.
"I think that the fact of Obama's involvement with social activism reveals how the black people are being exploited in an ultimate power play by communists."
Or that blacks are fed up and want equal representation for a change, something whites have had for 200+ years. Look in the South Seed, notice how overwhelming the populace is black and yet they have not even a close representation there.
"It is not a secret how they have operated in black communities specifically to wreek havic on our economy."
?
Then all they have to do is blame Republicans who all along were in fact respecting black people as their equals."
All along? Like since the 60's 'all along'?
"The original language was even more directed against slavery and was removed to solidify the south in joining their cause against the British"
It might have been, but none the less such wording didn't make it into the the final draft apparently, and such a shame. Saying 'all men are created equal' and then having slavery is enough illogically to make some blacks reject that the US ever had best intentions for them at all.
"but many of those KKK democrats are now a part of the republican party in the South"
Yeah, but don't tell Seed that. Sure the democrats (and republicans) were in some capacity pro-slavery, but this was back was democrats actually were popular in the South. Since the civil rights era of the 60's and LBJ, the south got basically turned over to the republicans, and we both know why. This federal action was too much for the southern states, and to make it worse, it was spearheaded by democratic administrations.
"the US government did not target black people"
Except for that whole 200 some years of slavery. Oh, and those years of segregation. Oh, and those years in which they couldn't vote, own land, run a business, be elected to office, equal pay, etc. Nope, no discrimination there at all.
"and The Declaration of Independence states quite clearly that all men are created equal"
Yes, but unfortunately as written the rights (somehow?) didn't extend to all in this manner. At the time unless you were a white, male, owned land, the odds of 'due process' or any other civil rights were not at all equal. In other words, 2nd class citizens. This is why it's at least in part a living document as it hand to be amended to see that slavery was abolished, and that women could vote, and so on. Societies change an thankfully our constitution is flexible to accommodate.
seed, I totally agree with you on your last post with regards to the racial and sin issue. And I do believe that soon after the Civil War the democrats of that day did indeed play up to the black community, but like too many politicians they made them a lot of promises but never came through, but still many blacks to this day still see the democratic party for the minorities and the poor.
What I think has happened is the Democratic Party dangled a carrot to get the black vote. I think that the fact of Obama's involvement with social activism reveals how the black people are being exploited in an ultimate power play by communists. It is not a secret how they have operated in black communities specifically to wreek havic on our economy. Then all they have to do is blame Republicans who all along were in fact respecting black people as their equals.
That being said, beleiver, I do understand that racism is a problem in every community and crosses party lines. Sin is not a political problem no more that it is a racial problem. This is where Agent would go his separate path. There is only one hope for sinners - Jesus!
Again Agent, the US government did not target black people and The Declaration of Independence states quite clearly that all men are created equal. The original language was even more directed against slavery and was removed to solidify the south in joining their cause against the British.
Therefore it would seem illogical to me for blacks to blame the US government for slavery, especially considering the Confederate rebellion. In light of the Democratic Party's aggressive advocacy for slavery, if they wanted to play the blame game, why not hate the Confederacy or the Democratic Party?
By the way the only single fact check that I stand corrected on was with Mccain when he misquoted Hillary, which I attributed to Hillary criticizing Obama. I'm not saying that I have not made other mistakes nor am I implying that I have all of my ducks in a row. Last time I checked I don't have any ducks anyway.
Seed,
"Have you ever heard of google agent? I put the facts on the table, like it or not."
Of course I have, it's just that it's common sense to leave a source when you refer to stats, quotes and such. If there is no source (like your other post) we
should be maybe a little skeptical, especially when one finds it to be in error in the past. It's all good, we're only human.
Voter fraud or false registrations is nothing new, many of the issues with the 2000 election lead to the debacle in FL, but seriously this has been done by both sides, lets be realistic here and not cherry pick, we both know both sides are corrupt to an extent and have their injustices. My main point was blacks have been targeted in general by the govt (and not by just a particular party) and so from their view they have some justification in not directly trusting the govt. thus the GDA statement. I think if most white Americans were to walk in the shoes of the average black person they would better understand their plight and such a comment.
More on Obama's ungodly ties:
http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/742238255.html
seed, although I don't approve of some of the language, I would encourage you to watch the movie "Glory". I think it paints an all too accurate picture of racial prejudice in both the North and South during the Civil War.
seed, but many of those KKK democrats are now a part of the republican party in the South. Racial prejudice is truly a bipartisan problem.
I am not going to condone racial violence or acts of terror instigated by anyone, whateve party affiliation or national heritage that may come in. My point merely was that the Democratic Pary slogan was pro-slavery. Were there any anti-slavery Democrats? Maybe you can come up with one or two if you can. It was the Democratic Party who fought for a hundred years after the Emancipation Proclamation to maintain a virtual slave society. Why did they decide to dangle a carrot to get black voters? My guess is that it was not exactly altruistic motives.
And by the way, about this KKK stuff. Again, it was Republicans that were lynched along side of the black man. And it was the Democrats who filibustered anti-lynching laws to their death.
Have you ever heard of google agent?
I put the facts on the table, like it or not.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93AIV882&show_article=1
It looks like the Democrats are up to their dirty tricks again. Two centuries ago they tried to monopolize Washington by adding non-voting blacks to the political census which led to the three-fifths compromise, which still alowed for 24 seats extra.
Now with ACORN, in 2007 Indianapolis had 677,401 individuals registered to vote even though they only had 644,197 voting age-eligible individuals. In 2005 Missouri had some counties with voter lists as high as 153% of their actual population. I guess some things never change. This is all a result of the motor voter plan instituted by Clinton and defended in court by Obama when he represented radical socialist organization ACORN.
http://theheritagefoundry.org/2008/10/09/motor-voter-acorn-vote-fraud/
seed, I think you might want to rethink this one, I live in Southeast Kentucky where democrats rule and a large majority of them are as American as apple pie, but agent at the same time prejudice is a nationwide problem and having grown up in Rochester NY I can say whites in the North were as prejudiced against blacks as whites in the South are they just act out their prejudices in different ways. My sense is that same prejudice may cost Obama the election.
"Is it logical for blacks to hate America for the autrocities committed to them by Democrats?"
You still can't do it can you? You honestly can't admit that blacks have been mistreated by the Govt. and thus their position? Pathetic. It's not hate Seed, it's disgust for how horrid they in particular have been treated. Haven't you a clue?
Seed get real, BOTH political parties and the Fed Govt. at large have throughout time abused and used them in the past.
"And by the way according to a poll 30% of white Democrats refuse to vote for a black candidate."
Source Seedling. Probably those particularly from the South too, in other words, of the KKK/hick variety, the ones that wouldn't vote for a black regardless of their political affiliation. In the south, color some how still matters.
"George Bush has appointed more blacks to government offices than any other president in US history."
So, your point? Does this help to advance the black community at large? No. Bush is also responsible for the largest increase in national debt EVER.
This doesn't change the fact that the South is largely republican simply b/c of the actions of civil rights movements and LBJ.
"So back to the original point now, are you getting a feeling with all the injustices against minorities in general and blacks in particular WHY they'd would be just a little upset at the US Govt.? Might this help to explain, along with the pathetic response to the victims of Katina WHY the GDA episode from the pastor?"
Is it logical for blacks to hate America for the autrocities committed to them by Democrats? No, it doesn't sound logical to me considering the US actually went to war with the southern Democratic (aka Confederates) and many people sacrificed their lives for their freedom. And by the way according to a poll 30% of white Democrats refuse to vote for a black candidate. You would never be able to say that about the Republican Party. George Bush has appointed more blacks to government offices than any other president in US history.
Only a Democrat would think that it is good and proper for US citizens to hate America. Why? Because the Democratic Party has been taken over by Soviet Communists for one thing. First it was John Kerry and now Obama.
You guys should rename your party The Reddems.
There have been so many things found, I can not list them all. But here is a sample:
1844 The palace of Sargon, King of Assyria, mentioned in Isaiah 20:1, was discovered.
1906 Hittite Royal Archive discovered Until 1906, the Hittites (Gen 10:15) were thought to be mythological. In fact, this discovery shows the Bible is accurate.
November 11, 2005 Israelites were able to write as far back as 1000BC. “Archaeologists have discovered a 40-pound stone containing the oldest known example of the Hebrew alphabet. The stone, inscribed with the Hebrew alphabet written out in its traditional order, was found in the wall of a building dated from the 10th century BCE in Tel Zayit, ancient Judea, south of Jerusalem†(http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/92812).
May 8, 2007 “Professor Ehud Netzer of Hebrew University announced that his team has uncovered King Herod’s long lost tomb†(http://www.isrealli.org/king-herods-tomb-discovered-in-israel/).
Aug 30, 2007 “Remains of the Jewish second temple may have been foundâ€Â
Nov 30, 2007 “Artifacts including pottery shards and arrowheads found under the tower suggested that both the tower and the nearby wall are from the 5th century B.C., the time of Nehemiah“
Feb 27, 2008 Seals dating to the 8th Century BC found at City of David excavations. “Among them is a seal that was discovered intact and which bears the Hebrew name “Rephaihu (ben) Shalemâ€Â, who lived in the City of David in Jerusalem during this period. The seals were primarily used by public officials.â€Â
Other examples can be looked up:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/bible-archaeology.htm
http://www.bib-arch.org
http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/faq/archaeology.asp
http://www.biblehistory.net/
http://www.bible-history.com/
http://biblicalarcheology.net/
http://www.bibarch.com/
http://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/archaeology.html
http://www.baseinstitute.org/
http://www.gnmagazine.org/archaeology/
http://aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/
'So far, archealogy is proving the Bible to be extremely accurate in the historical facts.'
'Extremely accurate' details please. Surely such evidence for the Tower of Babel has turned up....right? right?? Archealogical evidence for 2 million wandering jews for 40 years?
wbmoore, Such as the "fact" that the earth is 7,000 years in age?
So far, archealogy is proving the Bible to be extremely accurate in the historical facts.
DRJ- <Check out the 'Tower of Babel" scenario. Was it God's will that mankind be divided into different language groups? Or was it God's wrath visited upon mankind for their ideology that man could build a physical platform to reach God?>
OR
The "Tower of Babel" is myth.
"It was 211 years of slavery to be precise"
yes, though they were under segregation till the 1960's, and coincidently the democratic party was largely behind their more recent civil rights movements, this is why the democratic party has not done so well in the south in elections.
So back to the original point now, are you getting a feeling with all the injustices against minorities in general and blacks in particular WHY they'd would be just a little upset at the US Govt.? Might this help to explain, along with the pathetic response to the victims of Katina WHY the GDA episode from the pastor?
"Right, after like 400 years of slavery"
It was 211 years of slavery to be precise. The first documented full-fledged US slave was recorded in 1654. Incidentally it was a black master. The Confederates surrendered in 1865 and the Emancipation Proclamation drafted by Republicans freed the slaves. Following the assassination of Republican Abraham Lincoln led to Democratic Vice President Andrew Johnson's office; allowing the south to subjugate the new free blacks in the south and strip the rights that the northern states and the Republican legislators fought so hard for. The Republican Congress of 1875 drafted the first civil rights act just in time for the Democrats literally took power. The south was the heart of the Democratic Party. If there was one thing Democrats had in common it was pro-slavery, whether southern or northern (Andrew Johnson for example). The states fought hard to regain their political authority over blacks. Every black man who was elected to office was given the boot. According to Congressional Record, the Democrats used filibuster tactics and committees to stop all anti-lynching laws from being passed. 30% of the victims were white. How many of these were Republicans?
DRJ,
"You are confusing God's will with Gods wrath. "
Interesting, still, what if it's just 'God's wrath' and in the response and the result is miscarriages?
I have noticed that many of the bloggers keep assigning "God's will" to all abortions. What kind of reformed drivel is that? God never violates His own dictates. You are confusing God's will with Gods wrath. Check out the 'Tower of Babel" scenario. Was it God's will that mankind be divided into different language groups? Or was it God's wrath visited upon mankind for their ideology that man could build a physical platform to reach God? Don't forget that God endowed mankind with a will of our own and then allowed those men to pursue their own madness of constructing the tower that led to the diversification of language groups. You can be sure that all nations who approve of and participate in the sacrifice of infants will experience the wrath of God, who is the avenger of the innocent! America has placed her head squarely on the chopping block of judgment with 40 million abortions and counting. God is merciful and kind, and desires America's return to Him. Our confession and repentance mark the path to His forgiveness and restoration. Should God bless America? Pray for this nation that it will one day again be "under God." Pray that America will once again distrubute liberty and justice to all...even the pre-born!
seed "
I'm a Christian because my genes make me what I am. I have no free will. lol."
Well, actually, your religiosity may very well be genetic. My skeptical nature makes it difficult for me to develop religious faith, I attribute it to genetics, my brain chemistry and morphology do not seem to allow for religious belief.....
I think Sarah palin would be a cool VP!
Do your research:
- -Obama voted to kill babies born alive (voted against infant protection)
- - Obama and Hillary push for partial birth abortion which is cut the skull, suck the brains out of a human being, and throw them in the trash. Obama is sick!
Why is my family so concerned about the deception of Obama? He is not a decent man, has no experience and has ties with ACORN, AYERS, WRIGHT, some are voting for Obama only because of skin color and so many other bad reasons...
*** Families for McCain - Palin ***
"No, the US actually gave Africans equal rights,"
Right, after like 400 years of slavery, so I guess in your book this should just be all no big deal and they have no justification to distrust the Govt. or whites in general? Are you serious?
"it was the Democratic politicians who filibustered and overturned every single attempt made to establishing them as regular citizens"
The democratic polisitics who fillibustered were those from the SOUTH, in other words red neck KKK land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964
Seed,
"Are you in favor of unlimited abortion on demand?"
This seems a little cut and dry for the rules of such a topic. But as I stated before, my view is it should be legal (to a given moment post conception) likely up to consciousness emerges though I am open to other views based on evidence. Though it would reason that once the infant can survive outside of the womb, then it should have rights and technology and science as helped in reducing this age, so it's possible some day that we can support them outside of the womb entirely.
It should be rare, and generally only in certain circumstances (rape, incest, mother life in danger) and not wide sweeping simply for sake of birth control. I wouldn't mind leaving it up to the states to decide on the issue, the more localized govt. is generally the best. I know this isn't typical pro-life, nor is is a no holds bards abortion free for all, but it's somewhere in between which most of the populace does support.
One more thing Agent, Obama was endorsed by Planned Parenthood over Hillary, what more do you need to know about his record?
http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm
No, the US actually gave Africans equal rights, it was the Democratic politicians who filibustered and overturned every single attempt made to establishing them as regular citizens. Read your history, oh I forgot the liberal NEA doesn't require that part of history.
seedplanter, I know. I do not write just for the benefit of the folks who post, however. I also write for the many who only read.
Naaaa, it's called 'skeptic, not cynic.
"If everyone who hated America was banned from voting, who would win the election?"
Um, yeah, last I checked you left this topic as it was too much to bear on account you'd have to acknowledge that blacks and minorities actually have been targeted in the past by the Govt., thus their position in some respect.
wbmoore, don't waste your time, he's playing you out.
"In any case, they are at the very least in His perfect plan. "
So the perfect plan includes letting babies die....mkay, if you say so. Awfully negligent though.
Agent, The Bible clearly states that God set forth the order of nature. He placed us in this world as autonomous beings with free will and capable of moral judgments with which come certain responsibilities and consequences. But you already know this is the Christian position.
By the way Agent, I seen your horrified comments on the article regarding the rogue abortionist early this year. What gives? Are you in favor of unlimited abortion on demand?
Miscarriages are either the will of God, or the result of decisions of others (drugs, car accidents, physical attacks, the result of ancestors decisions, etc.). Perhaps there are other reasons as well. In any case, they are at the very least in His perfect plan.
"http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=72511 "
And this is an authoritative source on the matter how? Seriously here.
"the difference is miscarriages are accidents..."
Accidents perhaps, but these accidents are also therefor the will of God it would seem.
Bzzz. Times up Scitsonga!
I'll give you the answer to both:
Why life?
Short answer - God is the author of life.
Long answer - When a person is born again Scit, he becomes a new person. God changes the person's inner nature. His values change. those who are self-consumed become concerned about helping others. Scit, could you imagine a person selling their self into slavery just so they could share the Gospel on an island where the Gospel is banned? Can you imagine a beautiful woman engaged to be married, calling off her wedding to spend her life rescuing little girls who are being used as temple prostitutes in India? Can you imagine people actually spending their whole life in a leaper colony, to help diseased people, risking their own health each and every day, forsaking the privileges and modern conveniences of our day? Scit, I guess that the more you think about it, the less answers you have as a naturalist. You may not have considered your pro-life questions to be a direct result of your worldview, but there a lot of things that materialism has yet to explain: compassion, self-sacrifice, justice, mercy, beauty, goodness, the gift of life, etc, etc. I think that these all cry out a heavenly chorus to the creator - the creator and author of life!
Now about them Democrats. Why is it that the Democrats fought for slavery, in spite of the Republicans who entitled all men, no matter what skin color, basic human liberties, including the right to vote and the pursuit of happiness? Why did they dangle a golden carrot before the blacks, enticing 90% of them to join their ranks and file (30% of white Democrats refuse to vote for Obama because he is half black)? This obsession for power ever since the Democratic Party split off from the Democratic-Republican Party has done a lot to destroy the United States of America. I don't think that they are made up of the old Confederate guard as they once were, but they are made up of Communists, homosexual radicals, abortionists and freedom fighters (aka Islamo fascists).
There is no question in my mind who would win the election if those who hated America were banned from voting.
scitsonga,
Please realize that this is a difficult issue to discuss with anyone, and I fear I shall do it an injustice. This is not an issue that can be fully explained to someone who is without faith. I doubt you will understand. But I shall make the attempt.
God can make children who are perfect in every way. However, God allows us to make choices and deal with the consequences of those choices. Unfortunately, our choices affect those around us, as well as our offspring and descendants. One such choice was made by the first man.
Adam chose to disobey. This has affected every descendant through eternity. Others have made choices. Although I have no biblical evidence, I think one of the effects is what we consider to be malformity. But even though we might consider things to be bad, this does not mean they are. So while God CAN form children who are what we consider perfect, He chooses to honor our choices. But since He loves us, He also makes things happen to help us in our times of difficulty.
As for how tragic times help us move closer to God, its complicated. He makes it possible to deal with these difficulties by using those who have gone before us in difficult times to help us in our own times of difficulty. During difficult times, we all seek solace. Some of that solace can be gotten from other people, whom God has prepared to help us. But the best solace comes from seeking Gods presence, support, and love. Its amazing how He provides what we need when we need it, although what we need is not necessarily what we think we need. All things work together for the good of those who love God. Sometimes that includes death and suffering.
We must realize our choices and those of others (including our ancestors, those around us, and those who lived before who are not our direct ancestors) affect us. We can choose to believe that God loves us and respects our choices (and that each choice makes has an effect on ourselves and others), or we can choose to believe God either does not care, is not powerful or loving enough to respect us and our decisions, or does not exist.
But our choices DO have consequences. Our choices DO affect others. God DOES exist. God DOES love us. God DOES respect our choices. And God DOES provide what we need when we need it.
I'm a Christian because my genes make me what I am. I have no free will. lol.
seed, I'm a skeptic, its my nature, its who I am, perhaps thats how a creator made me, right?
That is exactly my point Scit - you are a cynic!
I'll tell you why we believe in life, but first answer my question Scit:
If everyone who hated America was banned from voting, who would win the election?
seed "Most people don't have time to play around with people who really couldn't care less and for all practical purposes Scit, that's you."
Ah yes I do care, thats why I visit CP. I care about how other's beliefs encroach on my liberties to the extent that those beliefs find there way into public schools, the courts and the government. Keep your religion at home and at church and you not see me here on CP.
"So, looks like your going to dodge the questions."
Scit, what's the point of your questions, to belittle Christians? To mock God? Are you genuinely interested in Christian ethics? Are you thinking of becoming a Christian? Come on Scit, who are you kidding?
My post was a direct quote, if you had noticed the link for the citation was given below the quote.
Alright, if you want to know the answer, why not read Christian Ethics by Dr. Norman Geisler. But, nah, you don't really want to know or understand.
Christians do not HAVE to answer to you, but we do HAVE to answer to God - and SO DO YOU!
I have never been in the situation where mercy killing was even a consideration. This is the actual heart of your question, not abortion. I do have a son who has mild autism; I would have never even considered aborting him. Most people don't have time to play around with people who really couldn't care less and for all practical purposes Scit, that's you.
dp Sorry, at least you addressed one of my questions. Thank you.
dp "We are quite temperal creatures who fail to see the big picture or the long run."
hmmm, big picture? wow, children born with crippling and fatal diseases are just part of the "big picture". LOL, thats nice to know as my friend's 25 year old sister just died after suffering from cystic fibrosis her entire life. The girl and her family really never appreciated " the big picture". It turned the father into an atheist.
In February 2004, U.S. Senate candidate Barack Obama's wife, Michelle, sent a fund-raising letter with the "alarming news" that "right-wing politicians" had passed a law stopping doctors from stabbing half-born babies in the neck with scissors, suctioning out their brains and crushing their skulls.
Michelle called partial-birth abortion "a legitimate medical procedure," and wouldn't supporters please pay $150 to attend a luncheon for her husband, who would fight against "cynical ploy[s]" to stop it?
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=37080
seed "....dedicated to abortion..."
dedicated? Its really difficult to take any of your post seriously.
"1. How was this serious deformity 'gods gift'?"
The question isn't about the child but about us as a society. What is the difference between that child and anyone else. We measure quality is such narrow and selfish ways. Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. It's quite possible that such a child even so deformed can be much more godly than any of us. We are quite temperal creatures who fail to see the big picture or the long run.
"Sen. Barack Obama is more dedicated to abortion at any time for any reason than even the National Abortion Rights Action League"
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=72511
seed "Less than five percent of abortions are due to health problems with babies."
So, looks like your going to dodge the questions.
wbmoore "She has been used by God to offer support to other women who have had miscarriages and anencephalic children. "
So, let me see if I understand what you are saying. God caused anencephaly in the fetus so this woman can help other woman under similar circumstances? I would think god would have better things to do such as, preventing the condition from occuring in the first place. If god can cause anencephaly, why wouldnt god instead prevent it and spare woman the pain and agony of the experience. To me, its suggests no god, rather than a god in play here.
"...as they have helped move her and others closer to God"
How does tragedy like this cause one to be closer to god? Seems it would work in the opposite way to me..
Scitsonga, if you please... your questions are ethical questions, steeped in the moral quagmire of materialism and naturalism. How can you expect to understand Christian ethics if you are not even able to come to grips with the God in the first place? Naturalism has no basis for universal morality, for you it is a social construct imbedded in our genes. Less than five percent of abortions are due to health problems with babies. Before Roe v. Wade abortion was permitted to save the life of the mother.
I know a woman who has had children with anencephaly. She got the privilege of holding her babies for the time they lived out of the womb. She has also had multiple miscarriages. Yet, she has chosen to never abort. Though tragic, she would never trade any of the experiences, as they have helped move her and others closer to God. She has been used by God to offer support to other women who have had miscarriages and anencephalic children.
There is never a reason to murder a child.
johnboy "When WE --both men and women-- treat the privilege of pregnancy for what it is... a GOD-given gift, that is when we will realize that ANY abortion is wrong."
Scenario:
"In utero brain destruction due to collapse of the fetal skull"
Mother made hard decision to abort.
Questions:
1. How was this serious deformity "gods gift"?
2. Was it wrong for the mother to abort a fetus that was not going to survive?
3. How is it any of yours OR the governments business?
I will answer the third. Simple answer- its not, thats why there is legal abortion. Its called empowerment. Empowerment for individuals to decide for themselves what is right, not you, not the government.
Agentorange,
the difference is miscarriages are accidents...
Abortions are intentional......
Here are the main reasons palin will not be next VP:
1. Poor economy, incumbent president gets the blame.
2. Bush numbers very low, mccain seen as more of the same.
3. Iraq war quagmire that mccain pushed from the beginning.
4. Palin a drag on ticket for a number of reasons-very limited knowledge base, ethical lapses.
5. Mccain seen as erratic and volatile.
6. Fear & hate mongering.
7. Flip-flopping.
8. Poor campaign strategy.
Amen, Sarah!!!!
Listen, Believers in Christ...Sarah Palin has hit the nail squarely on the head. Obama is not the candidate for LIFE, but DEATH. He is for change, alright!! Change for continued and even more death!!!
Remember who are, Believers, and what you are committed to!!!
JR,
"How many lives wasted! "
Did it ever occur to you how many lives are also lost naturally via miscarriages? It's pretty high.
wbmoore,
Your'e welcome! When I look at how wonderful of a human being my mother is (by the way, many people agree with me) I often wonder about all those lives that have been cut way too short. Was the person who was to find the cure to cancer one of them? was the next great economist among them? how about the next Billy Graham?
How many lives wasted!
Jer 333
Thanks for your testimony
"The pill called day after falls into a different category."
The day after pill prevents conception, so how or why is is outlawed? You'd think pro-lifers would at least consider this method of birth control as at least it prevents the death of a cluster of blastocist cells (zygote), but I guess not.
What's the big opposition of such a type of contraception?
What is amazing to me is that this conversation is even taking place. I mean what are we really talking about here but death. That's it, death. The absence of life is death. If there is life, but life no more, there is only death.
Human beings know the miracle of birth from only the fleshly perspective. We have seen from science the miracle of birth, from the egg implantation to the delivery. But with all that knowledge there is one truth that still evades us. When does the soul get placed?
That's the billion dollar question. Scientists can't explain what they cannot see. We, as human beings, have no idea when the soul is placed. That is truth. Since, as humans, we cannot determine when life begins, then protection is the only course of action.
But, there is also another truth that some have conveniently tried to forget. That's the truth of life. After God created life, He called it not just "good", but "very good". He told us to preserve life with such a fervency, as if it was our very own. He told us to take care of the least of these lives, those who cannot speak for themselves. For this is what pleases Him, and if it were not so, He would have told us something other than what He already has.
Beloved, there is an evil in this world that sets out everyday to change what God has set in place. For this one has such a hatred for The Creator, and the creation. We hear arguments from this one all the time, usually voiced by individuals who do not know God. They know of Him, but they don't know Him. These usually voice the same stupid arguments that hold nothing against the support for life. We've even seen this here. Those who place finances and lifestyle before another's life. These already have their reward.
Beloved, don't be fooled. If God called life not just "good", but "very good", then at best, attempting to snuff out this life, no matter how small or insignificant, one is playing with fire and has become an enabler and slave of Satan.
One is either for life or against life, there is no other alternative. In cases of rape or incest even. It makes zero sense to condemn the child born out of this horrible situation, the child had nothing to do with this situation. While this is indeed a tragic and desperate situation, there is still life. And what does God call life again?
Right, good conversation with some interesting issues raised. The only thing I would add is that the biggest aborter of all is nature, think how many fertilized eggs are miscarried each year with out the mothers even knowing they where pregnant.
Right, off to bed.
Steve
Wow Star, great posts.
I'll never forget about reading about the little thriteen year old girl who died on the table at an abortion clinic. I wonder if her parents even knew that she was having an abortion. Kids are required to get parental permission for an asprin, but not a dangerous abortion.
Obama was endorsed by Planned Parenthood over Hillary Clinton. He promised Planned Parenthood, "The first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act." The so-called Freedom of Choice Act could wipe away every state law limiting abortion, undoing decades of legal work, research and educational successes.
http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000007601.cfm
The standard estrogen based birth control pill MAY prevent ovulation, but not always. If fertilization occurs, it does prevent implantation in the uterine wall.
The morning after pill is, obviously, taken too late to prevent ovulation. Its purpose is to prevent implantation.
Therefore, if life begins at conception, both of these drugs are abortifacients.
There is NEVER a justification for abortion. Even though it pains me to say it, that includes cases of rape/incest. The way I see it, as a born-again believer, is that God has given women the most incredible, the most amazing, the most miraculous, and the most fearsome privilege/responsibility of being able to host/carry a new life AND bring that new life into the world. What WE have done --in our "infinite wisdom" is to think that we know better than God, that WE can determine when "life begins" and whether or not to bring that life into the world. That is WRONG. Dead wrong. When WE --both men and women-- treat the privilege of pregnancy for what it is... a GOD-given gift, that is when we will realize that ANY abortion is wrong. But, as scripture says, "hearts are hardened" and we turn away from the truth. The problem of abortion will not go away unless we first look to change people's hearts with the life-saving, life-giving message of Jesus Christ.
NLT Psalm 139:13-17
13)You made all the delicate,inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb.
14)Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous-how well I know it.
15)You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.
16)You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.
17) How precious are your thoughts about me *O God. They cannot be numbered!
The After Effects of Abortion on Men and Women.
Part 1: The effects of abortion on women:
Some of the Physical And Emotional Effects Of Abortion on Women
Taken from: www.cirtl.org/endres96.htm
An prize winning essay detailing the many negative physical and emotional effects of abortion on the mother, by Alyssa Endres.
Abortion affects women physically, and emotionally.
Some of the Physical Effects:
1) Blood loss during the procedure causes diversion of blood flow to various organs and can result in shock.
2) When the canal of the cervix is dilated, the insides of the uterus, fallopian tubes, and the abdominal cavity are exposed to invasion by bacteria. Abdominal infection can cause peritonitis and abscess formation.
3) Severe hemorrhage often follows an abortion.
4) Instruments can perforate the uterus causing injury, infection, and bleeding to internal organs.
5) Deaths from abortions, although rare, are usually from heavy bleeding from complications with anesthesia.
6) Women who have abortions increase their risk of breast cancer by fifty percent, according to a new study in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute. Abortion of a first pregnancy interrupts the natural growth process of the breast, leaving millions of cells at a high risk.
7) It has been found that future pregnancy failure is increased by forty-five percent with just one previous abortion.
8) Other complications are a greater risk of premature births, tubal pregnancy, sterility, and damage to the cervix.
Some of the Emotional Effects:
1) depression,
2) confusion,
3) hallucinations and psychotic thought processes,
4) long-term grief reactions,
5) anger,
6) sexual dysfunction,
7) guilt,
8) flashbacks,
9) memory repression,
10) suicidal ideas, and
11) difficulty keeping close relationships.
Post-abortion researcher David Reardon, who operates the Elliot Institute for Social Sciences Research in Springfield, Illinois, found that
1)twenty-eight percent of women who had abortions later attempted suicide, and over half of these women did so more than once.
2)Drug and alcohol abuse increased four times among women who aborted compared to those who carried to term.
3) Ninety-eight percent of women regretted having had an abortion. Seventy-two percent of women said their abortion did not improve their life.
4) Twenty percent of post-abortive women reported a nervous breakdown, and ten percent were hospitalized for psychiatric care.
5) Of the two hundred and sixty women surveyed, over sixty percent said their abortion made their life worse.
The After Effects of Abortion on Men and Women.
Part 2 - The after effects of abortion on men:
The fathers of the aborted fetuses also suffer. Here are some of the problems they experience:
wnd Article: "Post-abortion grief very real, experts say"
Excerpts take from http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=74872
"The Reclaiming Fatherhood website lists numerous adverse psychological effects abortions can have on men, including: Rage or anger, impotence, feelings of helplessness, grave concern for a partner, inability to communicate, alcohol or drug abuse, risk-taking behaviors, suicide or suicidal ideation, grieving, obsessive thoughts about the lost child, nightmares, desire for another child, inability to sort out feelings, emotional or physical spousal abuse, difficulty with commitment and anxiety.
In a two-year study cited on the Reclaiming Fatherhood website, 142 men responded to an online survey about their personal abortion experiences. Forty-five percent said their partner chose to abort against their wishes. Sixty-six percent indicated their relationships failed after the abortion. When asked about incidents of post-abortion problems, 128 male respondents reported grief, sadness and persistent thoughts about the baby. More than 100 cited feelings of helplessness, relationship problems, anger, guilt, isolation, difficulty concentrating and anxiety." [end quote]
God does not hold guiltless those who murder their unborn children.
I carried two, Steve and one of them came at what we thought was the worst time, yet I look at him now and he's such a joy to have.
Yes, I do believe that women have a choice when they find themselves pregnant and they don't want to be- either become a mom or give someone else that opportunity, but don't take a life to exercise your freedom of choice. Women who choose to end a baby's life violate and take away that baby's rights.
I'm not talking about forced at all, what I am saying that I don't believe the "no abortion ever argument is feasible,a women should have the choice, you may not like it, but its not you carrying the baby.
Sen. Obama, have you any wondered what it will be like killing off generations after generations? Have you ever wondered about the after-effects that set on in with that woman or man that had abortions? It is a lost yes a total lost,even after 30 years. Adoption Not Abortion is the answer.
*** People of faith are voting McCain - Palin ***
Some facts on Obama's voting and speaking against the teaching of Christ:
- Obama votes to kill babies born alive. These are people Jesus loves.
- Obama calls traditional marriage, which Jesus ordained, "divisive".
- Biden's church has told Biden not to take communion.
Let's vote for McCain - Palin beacuse they care for all babies and marriage - instead of voting because
someone is black or speaks well.
My grandmother had 9 children and when she became pregnant with number 10, she tried to abort that baby more than once. That baby came into this world, it was my mother. A wonderful woman who would give you the shirt off her back, a woman who feeds the hungry and clothes the poor. That is the type of baby my grandma was "forced" to keep.
The regular pill a woman takes on a daily basis causes her not to ovulate, so no eggs are produced and no conception takes place. What you were referring to is the methods such as the contraceptive that comes in the shape of a T (sorry, I cannot recall the name at this time).
I agree jer333 its a tough choice but sometimes they have to be made and the mother has rights too, how are you going to make such a mother keep the child?
jer333, The pill does not stop contraception, what the pill does is effect the lining of the womb stopping the fertilized egg embedding itself in it, so the pill is in effect abortion, which is why I asked the question.
Reagards
Steve
Steve..how about mercy for the unborn who cannot defend himself?
"The pill called day after falls into a different category."
The day after pill prevents conception, so how or why is is outlawed? You'd think pro-lifers would at least consider this method of birth control as at least it prevents the death of a cluster of blastocist cells (zygote), but I guess not.
hey Palin, it's the economy. That's THE issue, try not to run from it.
Steve...contraceptives such as the pill prevent eggs from being fertilized, thus they prevent conception, therefore they are not abortive measures. The pill called day after falls into a different category.
Yes jer333 it is precious but so is that of the mother, it may be that the life of the foetus is outweighed by the life of the mother, rememeber God loves mercy, not just to the foetus.
Murder it may be or it may not, but tell me, how are you going to make a woman keep the child she does not want? and I also fully accept some will for exactly the reasons you specify. Murder or mercy?
Would you therefore also say that a married copple who use the pill are wrong?
Kind regards
Steve
When we try to justify abortion in some situations we are basically saying that one's life may not be as meaningful if the individual was conceived under certain circumstances. Circumstances then determine sanctity of life according to such statements.
Life, no matter how it began it's precious.
The fetus is a human being regardless of how it was conceived. To end its life is murder. It would be just as wrong to end its life if it was conceived via rape, and incest, as it would be to end it if the fetus was conceive by other types of sexual encounters, like sex between married couples, causual sexual encounters between consenting sexually productive people, and etc.
Servant
Whilst I respect your view can you show me where abortion
in the case of incest or rape is against "truth"(or at least what "Sarah" says), that seems more likely to me an opinion. At the end of the day though any such decision, such as that is down to the idividual unless you believe it is right to make a woman carry to term a baby in those circumstances, I think though that might be well impossible if they don't want too. I don't however want to put words into your mouth and apologise if I have done any such thing.
Kind regards
Steve