Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Church|Tue, Oct. 14 2008 03:19 PM EDT

Most Protestants Fall Short of Spiritual Maturity

By Audrey Barrick|Christian Post Reporter

In an effort to define the current reality of American Christianity, which often times can be painted more positively or more grimly by Christians than it is, one researcher found that most Protestant churchgoers are not where they should be in their spiritual formation.

According to Brad Waggoner, vice president of B&H Publishing Group, and his survey findings, only 17 percent of Protestant churchgoers in America demonstrated a "decent" level of discipleship or spiritual maturity.

This minority scored 80 percent or higher on a Spiritual Formation Inventory (SFI) that was developed to measure key areas of Christian discipleship. These discipleship characteristics, which were validated by a panel of experts, were considered to be "clear biblical expectations of any follower of Christ that can be observed and, thus to some degree, measured," Waggoner writes in his new book, The Shape of Faith to Come: Spiritual Formation and the Future of Discipleship.

His passion to see spiritual transformation and true disciples among Christians was the springboard for conducting the study and writing his latest book.

After surveying 2,500 Protestants who attend church regularly – at least once a month – Waggoner had major concerns about the lack of focus on qualitative discipleship in many churches and he wants spiritual leaders to be challenged to reject the mediocrity among believers.

"When you consider the cultural context in which we reside, this is not the time for weak or average Christians or the time for weak or average churches," he writes in his book.

"Much is at stake. I am convinced that things must change," he also states. "At present I believe that too many of us are settling for easy goals. It is one thing to grow a church numerically. It is quite another to seek the transformation of heart, mind, and character."

Other findings showed that only 16 percent of Protestant churchgoers read their Bible daily while another 20 percent read it "a few times a week."

Only 23 percent "agreed strongly" with the statement, "When I come to realize that some aspect of my life is not right in God’s eyes, I make the necessary changes."

Also, 47 percent of Protestant churchgoers admitted to just "going through the motions" often during the singing and prayer portions of worship services while one-quarter strongly disagreed that they merely go through the motions.

And in the past six months, 29 percent of respondents said they shared with someone how to become a Christian twice or more, 14 percent reported doing it once and 57 percent said not at all.

One year later, a majority of the churchgoers said they believe they grew spiritually over that year, yet their actions and practices evidenced little change.

"We discovered a problem with these self-perceptions for growth or decline," Waggoner states. "Fifty-five percent of our respondents believed they had grown spiritually in the last year. However, based on SFI scores, only 3.5 percent showed a statistically significant level of growth."

While Waggoner called many of the results "disturbing," he did not want to become the "'Chicken Little' to the church crying, 'The sky is falling!'"

"Even though our research reveals reasons for concern, my underlying theology allows me to maintain confidence," he writes. "I believe God is on His throne without any threat to His sovereign rule. The church, the body and bride of Christ, will be triumphant."

Still, Waggoner acknowledges the challenge of keeping a balance of biblically grounded optimism while facing the hard facts of reality.

The survey was conducted on the 2,500 church attendees in May 2007 and then again in May 2008. For this study, Waggoner defined disciple as being "a learner and a follower of Jesus Christ" and evaluated seven domains of spiritual formation among respondents. The domains include: learning truth, obeying God and denying self, serving God and others, sharing Christ, exercising faith, seeking God, and building relationships.

"We need to evaluate our churches by far more than the typical quantitative metrics," Waggoner writes. "This study is about qualitative perspectives related to spiritual formation. We need to be satisfied with nothing less than true biblical transformation."

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  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:37 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    wbmoore,

    Likewise my friend; likewise.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:25 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    heh. I was just thinking that only in a place with so many teachers and preachers would you have so much technical discussion of the word of God and the life of a Christian. I really love it, even if I disagree with someone. I appreciate all your (plural) ministries! I know it ministers to me and give me food for thought and lessons to write.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:18 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Tallguy1000,

    wbmoores statement (We were just being specific to avoid misunderstandings) expressed my thoughts exactly.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:12 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    believer, "...One's testimony can be used of God as a powerful witnessing tool."

    believer, here is a passage from "The Holy Spirit Our Helper" by John D. Folsom (1907) that contains an interesting story:

    A far more serious fault is the lack of Christian consistency in the worker who labors for the conversion of others. Dr. A. C. Dixon gives a striking illustration of such a defect causing failure, and the signal success that came when the defect was remedied.

    "My dear," said a Christian woman to her husband as they were going home from an evangelistic meeting, "I was hoping that you would tonight manifest some interest in your spiritual welfare, for I wish you to know that I pray for you every day, and nothing could give me more pleasure than to have you become a Christian."

    "I am glad," replied the husband, "that you mentioned the subject, and when we get home we will talk the matter over." After they reached home, and had taken off their wraps and were comfortably seated, the husband turned to his wife and said with gentle emphasis:

    "Now, my dear, you say you want me to become a Christian, and I promise that I will try to become one if you will show me in what respect you as a Christian differ from me who have made no profession of religion. You go to the theater; so do I, and you seem to enjoy it as much as I do. I play cards, and you can beat me. I drink wine moderately, and so do you. I dance sometimes, and so do you. I do not lie nor steal nor kill nor commit adultery. Both positively and negatively we are alike so far as I can see. You say you want me to be converted. Can you tell me from what or to what I am to be converted?"

    The wife was speechless. She saw her error and made haste to depart from it, and her new spiritual life soon began to speak louder than words. To her great joy her husband came to Christ, and became an eminent Christian worker. His testimony is that he was led to seek salvation because he saw that his wife had an experience that separated her from the world, and gave her a joy superior to that of the world's amusements in which she once delighted.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    TallGuy,

    I think what you describe is what is technically known as discipleship. It is the role of the church (both local and universal, ie. the original meaning of catholic) to tell us how to get eternal life and how to become the person God wants us to be. The avenue for that is teaching (via modeling and sermons and teachings and calling one another to a higher level of spiritual maturity, etc.) and prayer.

    We were just being specific to avoid misunderstandings.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    GoldenEagle

    You're welcome.

    May God bless you as you serve Him.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:55 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Online4Him

    "our responsibility is choosing to be led by the Holy Spirit, choosing to submit, choosing to obey by his grace. God receives all the glory; Soli Deo gloria!"

    amen!

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Online, maybe I wasn't clear enough, but you're right, the Church can't make us holy, but it can guide us into holiness. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The Church can guide me into salvation (for those who haven't already heard the message of the free gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ), santification, holyness, purity, meekness, etc. The grace of Jesus can help me accept these gifts.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You're very welcome, wbmoore.Thanks for the link.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:12 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    wbmoore,

    I agree; our responsibility is choosing to be led by the Holy Spirit, choosing to submit, choosing to obey by his grace. God receives all the glory; Soli Deo gloria!

    Tallguy1000,

    The multiple technical responses are probably because you stated that the church (makes) us more holy. Perhaps we do not understand what you mean by using the word (makes) us more holy; if this is what you meant, can you clarify how the church makes us so? Thanks.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hey, I think you guys are getting way too technical on me here. I didn't say the Church sanctifys me, I said the Church guides me into santification. If not, then why are any of us attending church on Sunday morning? You go there for wisdom, guidance, fellowship, Eucharist (some of us) etc...

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I agree our positional sanctification comes from God. Our desire to be holy comes from God. Yet we have our responsibility in being holy.


    Hebrews 12:14
    Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

    2 Peter 1:5-11
    5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    2 Peter 3:10-15
    10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. 14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.

    I wrote something on this a while back...
    http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/21/comparing-justification-and-sanctification/

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    GoldenEagle
    thanks.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:19 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    It is God alone who sanctifies his people.


    That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (Ephesians 5:26).


    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; (1Thessalonians 5:23).


    Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate (Hebrews 13:12).

    A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them (Ezekiel 36:26, 27).

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Tallguy1000

    Basically, from my understanding of RCC teaching, salvation comes to a person born into a Catholic family thru infantile baptism and confirmation once they reach a certain age.

    John 1:12-13 says that we cannot become a child of God (born-again) by blood, that is, being born into a Christian family, or by the will of man, that is, where someone else decides salvation for you [infantile baptism], or by the will of the flesh, that is, where a person decides w/o God convicting his/her heart that he/she will accept Jesus as Savior. To become a child of God it must be thru the will of God. God makes the decision on when He wants to deal with you about your need for salvation. When God decides it is time to deal with you about salvation He will thru the Holy Ghost draw you to Jesus, convict your heart that you are a sinner deserving of eternal damnation, and that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the dead so that you could be forgiven and have eternal life. Afterwards, He will give you the grace to respond from your heart to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord. If you, from your heart, accept what Jesus did for you, turn to Him in prayer asking Him to forgive you of your sins, to come live in your heart, and be the Lord of your life then you become a child of God (born-again).

    I have asked you on several occassions if your salvation was based on infantile baptism (will of man) and giving mental consent to the teachings of the RCC (will of the flesh)? You refused to answer so I assumed that it was.

    You finally answered me when you gave your testimony of salvation on this thread. Though you didn't give all the details of what was going on in your heart and mind when you decided to give your life to Christ I now would say that you have been born-again. I will never accuse you anymore of not being born-again.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:11 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    TallGuy,

    I agree, the church SHOULD help us become more holy through teaching truth and calling people on where they need growth. Sometimes a church does not do that.

    However, it is faith in Christ that gives us positional sanctification (setting us apart for God when we are justified through faith in Christ), and it is that same faith in Christ (combined with the work of the the Holy Spirit and our personal surrender to God) that helps us grow in personal sanctification by helping us grow more holy in our persons and daily lives.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    I absolutly agree! It's that free gift of faith, faith in Jesus Christ that saves us.

    Yet the guidance of the Church is there to help santify us and make us more holy.

    Pax Christi

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:49 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    (It is not the church that saves us, it is faith in Christ.)

    AMEN!

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Very good post, wbmoore.You said it so well that I think it sums up my position, as well.Nicely done!!

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Pax is the Latin word for peace, as in Pax Vobiscum("peace be with you").I guess you could argue that there is no true or lasting peace apart from Christ, and I would not argue with that one bit.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:08 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    What is the requirement for eternal life?

    Perfect righteousness (Mt 19:16-26; Mk 10:17-27). No one is able to meet this requirement (Romans 3:23). Failing that, the perfect righteousness of Christ through faith in the Christ Jesus (John 3; Romans 4).

    Anyone who truly trusts in the saving work of Christ has eternal life. This does not mean we understand fully or correctly every other doctrine of Christ. This does not mean we "go" to the "right" church. This does not mean the "right" church has every doctrine correct. It means we have faith in God and what HE has done. No church saves us, faith in Christ saves us. No church is perfect.

    Notice the churches of Revelation. Not all of them were in danger of loosing the lamp of Christ (Rev 2-3). And even of those who were in danger of it, people could still persevere and prove their faith. In fact, everyone in those churches were told to persevere in faith.

    The church can make it easier or harder for its members to persevere in faith. But it is the individual who will have to do the persevering, and ultimately it is in the individual who will be saved or not.

    Some churches have doctrines that make it harder to trust in Christ because of distractions or false teachings that lead one to look elsewhere. Other churches make it harder to trust in Christ because of false teachings that lead one to believe that a statement is all that is necessary to have faith, which leads to licentiousness instead of faith. Some chruches focus on legalism instead of faith in Christ, and so make it hard to trust God. All churches have their problems. It is not the church that saves us, it is faith in Christ.

    I've said it before, and I will repeat it: while I think the RCC teaches things against what the word of God says, there is no doubt in my mind that there are people who trust Christ fully in that church.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:21 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    Pax Christi = Peace in Christ

    Star, the reason I get frustrated with your comments is simple. You always come with this blanket statement that trys to tell me that I'm not Christian because I'm Catholic. You're wrong! I'm Christian to the core! Don't tell me that I'm not! When you say that Catholics are not Christian is like the Nazis saying that Jews are not human. You only get my back up. Star, you don't know who I am, you've never walked a day beside me, you don't know the depth of my faith in Jesus, you just sling mud at me because in your opinion you think you are above me because I'm Catholic. It becomes frustrating!

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tamna, doesn't PAX really mean the Peace of Christ?

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    PAX = Peace

    As to the rest of your comments/questions, it is painfully obvious that I have failed to communicate my meaning to you in a manner that you can understand. Please forgive me. God bless.

    PAX
    Tamna

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tamna - BTW, what does PAX mean?

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tamna - What one person considers a barb another would not. If it was a barb to you then maybe you need to make a change in your life and do what you know deep down in your heart is the right thing to do.

    God bless you too.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:01 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tamna - Do I take it then as a confession that that is how you initially reacted to my statement?

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:44 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Star2 wrote:

    "tamna - Why do you call my comment "because I seek God for the understanding of the Word of God not man" a barb? Is it because deep down in your heart you know that it is the right thing to do and you don't do it and you think that I view you as inferior because you don't do it?"

    *Sigh* Thank you for illustrating my point(s) so well.

    Take care and God bless.

    PAX
    Tamna

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tamna - My comment was pertinent to my discussion that msnchris70, Tallguy1000 are less than Christian at times when dialoguing with Protestants who hold a different view than theirs. I got the impression that they both (and you initially) were trying to present themselves (them) as above name calling on this thread with those who disagree with them. I was just illustrating that they are not so righteous as they try to make themselves out to be and gave an instance where msnchris70 has not been Christian to me because I seek God for the understanding of scripture instead of man. My comment was totally necessary since that practice is what partially drove msnchris70 into a tail spin causing him to have less than a Christian attitude towards me on the article I referenced you to.

    My practice is scriptural (John 14:26, John 16:13, 1 John 2:27). It was no barb since it was a part of the incident that drove msnchris70 to name call and name calling is what the discussion was about.

    I agree with you though that Protestants and Catholics have been less than Christian towards each other at times in their discussion with what scripture teaches. Some Protestants have been more offensive than other Protestants and some Catholics have been more offensive than other Catholics at CP.

    Some Catholics take it as a personal attack against them if a Protestant says that the teachings and practices of the RCC are heretical and that the RCC is an apostate Church. To say those things and to back it up with scripture is not a personal attack on the Catholic himself but on the doctrine that his Church teaches.

    If someone says that my doctrine is heretical or that I am apostate or my Chruch is apostaste I don't care. I do not take it personally. I am secure in my beliefs and it matters not to me what someone else thinks even if it comes from another Protestant. Like Prophet, I am accountable to God for what I believe, I am not accountable to man. If I am wrong in my beliefs God will correct me. He has done so many times as He fine tunes my understanding of the Word of God or changes it completely as He has done before. I am teachable; I allow God to correct me and show me truth and when He does, I change what I believe and I teach it as I have been taught by Him.

    I don't know what igh wrote because it had been flagged before I saw it but apparently it was a personal attack against Catholics and not the doctrines of the RCC which I would say is wrong to do. I also agree that flagging someone because their doctrine is different than yours is wrong. I also agree with Tallguy that igh was the one who did all the flagging. Maybe we are both wrong but it seems like that is what happened after reading what the circumstances were surrounding the flagging. But then maybe it didn't happen that way at all. Only the flagger(s), the CP technical people, and God really know for sure.

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hello wbmoore:

    I'm American. I have been in Korea several times '83-'85 and '90-'92 courtesy of Uncle Sam's big green machine. I came back in 2000 and have been here ever since. I'm the textbook definition of a "Stranger in a strange land."

    Daniel Paul: I understand where you are coming from. Sometimes when I have engaged Muslims the discussion has become how shall we say....enthusiastic. However, it has been my experience that educated Muslims will discuss. Yes, there are many who think internet shouts (some really love the CAPS Lock on the keyboard) and threats constitute a debate. But this is not all of them. Plus, as you know, maybe better than I, that the objective in attempting to engage muslims is not to convince or convert them, but to just plant a seed and let the Holy Spirit do its work.

    All the best.
    PAX
    Tamna

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tamna - Why do you call my comment "because I seek God for the understanding of the Word of God not man" a barb? Is it because deep down in your heart you know that it is the right thing to do and you don't do it and you think that I view you as inferior because you don't do it?

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "tamna - What website do you go to to debate Muslims? "

    Muslims don't debate. They are not open to any dialog on the subject as a rule. Either out of commitment to their faith or out of fear for their lives. Still, it would be interesting if there was a place on line where they could go for discussion and remain unidentified.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Tamna,

    I have a friend who went to to teach English in Korea for a year. She really enjoyed her time there, and God gave her occasion to share the Gospel regularly. I've a friend who grew up in Korea, and now lives in the USA. He's found Christ as well. I have found I like many from Korea I have met. I think what I have seen of it is pretty.

    Are you American, or Korean, or some other nationality?

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wbmoore: Thank you, and your welcome.

    OnLine4Him: No problem. Usually copy and paste works for me, but I think my PC has been attacked by gremlins or something.

    Star2: I read the thread. Thanks. A lot of interesting information there. However, with respect, I still fail to see how the thread is relevant to my point about the barb. It is not what a person says say but how they say it. From my review of the thread several people were slinging a little bit of mud. In my mind, the only thing it did was confirm what I was trying to communicate. Namely, that we all need to watch how we communicate our points to others. That's it. Again, my point has nothing to do with what the message communicated but how it was presented. So, in my mind and getting back to my original point, your barb was not necessary to say what you wanted to say to me. That's it. No more or no less. I just don't have the skills to communicate what I am trying to say any clearer than I already have. Maybe in the future I can study up and find a way to make myself more clear. Until then, take care and God bless.

    PAX
    Tamna

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tamna

    Re:As to your concerns about my discussion about the barb. It is apparent I was not clear enough. My apologies. My point is not to discuss the statement. That is not relevant to this discussion.

    Yes my statement is revelant to the discussion. Go read the conversation between msnchris70 and myself on the CP article "Archaeologists Unearth World First's Church", www.christianpost.com/article/20080610/archaeologists-unearth-world-s-first-church.htm to see its revelantcy.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Tamna,

    Sorry about the missing video title.

    wbmoore thanks for posting it.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Tamna,

    The title is "The Persecution of the Church in Chiapas, Mexico". The link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-oGzG12XQI

    And thank you for your compliment.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks, believer. My day is just about over. Only a few more hours until the Monday blues set in. Uggghhhh.
    May you and yours have a blessed Lord's Day.

    PAX
    Tamna

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tamna, hopefully characters like this are few and far in between, hope you're having a great Lord's Day, believer.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Online:

    Can you give me a video title for the one you listed. It seems I'm having a problem copying and pasting the link you provided.

    Thanks.

    Tamna

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    cont.

    As to your concerns about my discussion about the barb. It is apparent I was not clear enough. My apologies. My point is not to discuss the statement. That is not relevant to this discussion. My point is that you can deliver a message in a manner that is more palatable to your recipient and still get your point across. In my opinion the barb was not necessary to convey the message you had already delivered to me. I used your comment as an example of the overall point I was trying to make. That being, how a message or point is communicated to a recipient during a debate is many times just as important as the message itself. If I may suggest, if you have the time and inclination, you might want to look into taking some on-line apologetics courses. This may aid you in packaging your message in a manner that does not take the debate off-point and into areas where the original focus is lost, like the proverbial gutter. A person can be passionate about what they believe and still engage in a respectful manner. This is one of the main reasons other posters you mentioned garner a little more respect from their opponents. I hope that clears it up.

    I do not know why you replied with Bible verses. Maybe I misunderstand. I do not see how they are relevant to the discussion at hand. They seem to be more about the misunderstanding about the barb. Oh well, not the first time I missed something, and definitely not the last.

    I am going to cut this short by just adding that a place to start if you are looking to engage Muslims might be the Faith Freedom International website. It is secular andagnostic in orientation, be aware of that if you visit. I started there a while ago and now visit several different ones. The websites and messaging sites based in Pakistan are real fun, if you have the stomach.

    Well, that is it for me. I have beat a dead horse into dog food. Again, take care.

    PAX
    Tamna

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hi Star

    Wow. It looks like I started something here. It was not my intent. I’d like to take a few moments and comment on what you wrote. You wrote:

    Tallguy1000 is not so righteous as you make it sound like he is

    I never said he was righteous. If you read my initial comments again, you might be able to see that I was trying to calm a situation down that was getting a wee bit out of hand in my opinion. You’ll see where I make two points. 1 An insult reflects more on the person doing the insulting than the person insulted and 2 the board needs different perspectives, even if others don’t agree with them. As an additional point I stated my opinion about wholesale flagging by some people on this board. That’s it. I was not, and am not, taking sides, in the discussion.

    You provided comments made by Chris and others. Yes, they are over the top. But here is my question. What were your comments prior to the ones by Chris and the other poster? Now before someone misunderstands, I am not saying their comments are acceptable. I am saying that without context and seeing what they were in response to, I can’t offer a totally informed opinion. And, I don’t wish to offer an opinion anyways, I am not taking sides. I am my own side. The disappointed side.

    To be cont.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Tamna,

    The video where that man disrupted the mass was definitely distasteful and counterproductive. It seems that there are extremists on both sides of our faiths that need our prayers. Despite their passionate zeal they misrepresent Christ and cause his name to be ill spoken of by nonbelievers. The Church was never given the authority to persecute anyone; this is not of God.

    He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love (1John 4:8).

    Having the mass disrupted was unfortunate but evangelicals in Mexico are presently experiencing real persecution.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-oGzG12XQI

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet

    RE:"And on the other side of the coin, when someone argues a point about our faith....don't take it personal."

    I do not take it personally for someone to have a different view of scripture. I have no problem with them stating what they believe and why. We should be able to agree to diagree. But they don't. They just call me names. I get tired of it after awhile.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tamna - What website do you go to to debate Muslims?

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Radical Preacher Disrupts Roman Catholic Mass
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNG5ILNWwik&feature=related

    I agree with the message of that Pastor but he was wrong to do it during a Catholic Mass and God had no part in it.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:18 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    tamna

    My comment "because I look to God for the understanding of the Word of God instead of looking to man." was not a barb.

    I do not look to the Early Church Fathers for what scripture teaches or for what the suppose practices of the early church were. msnchris70 and Evancal, though to a lesser degree than msnchris70, do. If what the Early Church Fathers teach or practice is contrary to the Word of God I reject it.

    msnchris70 said that I had a massive ego because I take God at His Word and seek Him for understanding of the Word of God. Many times I have explained to msnchris70, Evancal, and once to IHS that this is what I do. Your comment that it was a barb is out of place here because it is what I do and it was a very real discussion on many CP articles between me, msnchris70, Evancal, and IHS, in which they think I have a massive ego because I told them that is what I do.


    John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, which is the HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

    John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, is come, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

    1 John 2:27 - "But the anointing (Holy Ghost) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and YE NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

  • Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    God morning, believer. I hope all is well with you and your.

    Yep, I'm a guy. I live in Korea. My handle is based on the ancient name of the area in which I live.

    Here is a link to a video on Youtube about an incident to which I was referring. Now, I do know that most sensible Protestants should condemn this so-called preachers conduct.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch? vNG5ILNWwik&feature=related

    If that doesn't work just go to Youtube and type in:

    Radical Preacher Disrupts Roman Catholic Mass

    or you can do a search under "Street Preacher"

    After viewing this a Catholic friend asked me "In the video who are acting like Christians?" What was my answer? My friend also thought it was funny that the preacher is wearing what has come to be recognized as a Roman Catholic collar.

    All the best.
    Tamna

  • Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tamna, somehow I thought before you had mentioned you were a female, whoops. By the way what country are you from? What's this thing about so-called Christians disrupting catholic services and please don't think I'm questioning you, but I've honestly never heard about this, I've heard about homosexual rights groups going in and disturbing services but not this, thanks?

  • Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Sorry for all the gobbilty- gook on my posts, apparently whenever I put in an apostrophy or a series of periods my non-English word processor can't transfer them over to the board.

    Take care.
    Tamna (yep, I'm a "he")

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